Filo Tiatia: Edge And Empathy In Coaching

Culture isn’t a slogan; it’s the air your team breathes. With Filo Tiatia, iconic loose forward turned pro coach across New Zealand, Japan, and Wales—we unpack how identity, empathy, and non-negotiable standards create environments where people feel safe, stretched, and proud of how they do things here. From Samoan and Japanese customs to the daily rituals inside a professional club, Filo shows why clarity of behavior and belonging beats hype every time.

We dig into the hardest pivot a coach can make: trading ego for ears. Filo admits he once ignored feedback and paid the price. Now he treats feedback as opinion that’s always worth considering, invites players to co-own standards, and keeps rituals alive before they turn stale. His take on leadership is refreshingly practical: the head coach shouldn’t make every call, but must make the final one—after hearing specialist coaches, checking cohesion, and weighing load and form. The result is smarter selection and a spine that holds under pressure.

There’s also a powerful case for the body-mind loop. “Physical capacity builds mental capacity,” Philo says—and it applies to coaches too. When you train, sleep, and recover, you project steadier energy that athletes naturally follow. That energy helps you stay present at home, manage stress after losses, and keep your word when integrity is on the line. We explore service-driven leadership, the constant work of guarding standards, and the practical tools that keep learning at the center of a winning culture.

If you’re ready to rethink culture, selection, and the way you listen, this conversation will sharpen your edge and deepen your care. Subscribe, share with a coaching friend, and leave a review telling us the one change you’ll make this week.

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Transcript

Setting The Tone: Edge And Care

SPEAKER_01 0:58

I don't want you to tell me what you think. I want you to run through a brick wall. And so I would run through people. You learn quickly, you make a lot of mistakes, but you just can't make the same mistake over and over. There has to be an element of care uh when you're coaching, but also if you were the mentor as well or had the opportunity to mentor someone, what an opportunity, what a um what an honour. My ego didn't allow me to learn because I didn't consider the solution or an answer. I wanted to continue doing what I was doing. Environments is is really the culture that you create and it's the environment that you grow. And uh there's probably only two environments. There's a good environment and there's a bad environment. And um I've been in a lot of bad environments.

Who Is Philo Teatia

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Philo Tiertia. Philo was an iconic player, a blockbusting loose forward, and he played for the Hurricanes and the All Blacks in New Zealand before having a stellar career in both Japan and with the Ospreys in Wales. 99 games for the club. Fila had a cult-like following every place he played. Fans loved, and I quote, his all-action style and appetite for work. He has now been coaching professionally for 20 years, having coached Toyota, Auckland, Ospreys, the Sunwolves, and the Japan national team, and nowadays is the head coach of the Dragons in Wales. Fila has five children, and his family have travelled extensively between Wales, Japan, and New Zealand throughout his playing and coaching career. Philo, what a pleasure to have you on the Coaching Coaching Culture podcast today.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Well, Jeremy, that's a great introduction, mate, and um very humbly to hear some of that stuff, but uh it's great to be here, mate.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Yeah, mate, it is great to have you here, mate. We've we've had a shared coaching experience over the years, and it's a pleasure to reconnect uh and chew the fat on coaching on this platform. It's absolutely awesome, mate. Um first question that we always roll, mate, is how do you define culture?

Defining Culture Through Environment

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Yeah, it's uh it's a good question, uh Jamy. Um probably for simplicity for me, uh environments like the the environment that um that you create really one embodies safety, embodies how you do things here and in your environment. So what I mean by that is if I use my environment I'm in here with Sally and say the children were here, the environment would be very clear around what you can and what you can't do. If I was well, actually let me reframe it. If you were to go to my parents' uh very clear on one identity, but two, clear on what you can do. So you can take your shoes off when you walk into my parents' home, you can say hello. But there are certain ways how you do that. So uh similar to Japan and Samoa, they've uh some things there that are very similar how you greet, so it's been um very polite, you're lower in your stature, so you would sit down and um and have a conversation. The other part would be um if you're in my home, you have to ask if you are hungry, and if you can go in my fridge, you can have anything you want if you ask. So uh there's there's certain things you can do, but I think it's simplicity is just around what you do in your environment and what it looks like is really important. Uh what it sounds like and what it feels like. Yeah, I hopefully that sort of simplifies from day to day. Yeah, sorry, mate, you're gonna.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

No, you go, mate. I'm just I'm still chuckling at the your reference for at your house, you have to ask, you ask for food. That's a big one. You can go in my fridge as long as you ask.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Yeah, 100%, mate. And I think the stand is the standard, but everyone's environment will be slightly different. So if I go to your house, Jamie, um, I would not assume that I can just go and help myself. Um so I think um the upbringing as well really moulds you uh to who you are. And I guess that's really important uh that the makeup of one person is different to the next.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Mate, your upbringing moulds you to who you are. I think that's a really um it's a really big piece, mate. Like and when you understand that as a coach, right? Like it um it affects the way you coach things, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Yeah, I think so. And I think it really just um like I I'm totally different the way uh I coach to you, Jamy, and how you but really similar in a way uh where care comes from. Uh there has to be a little bit of care uh when you're coaching and then but also if you were the mentor as well or had the opportunity to mentor someone, what an opportunity um what a honour uh for someone to to ask you to to help molt them. And um then I reckon that's really special. I never thought of that um when I was a young person. But when when people ask, oh sorry, coach, can can we take this to a different level of um learning? Um and and that type of thing. And I think, you know, when you talk about influencing or helping someone shape their lives, I think it's the the gift of being able to connect with people and um everyone's different, as I said, um right from the start. Everyone's unique. And then how you uh build relationships and build trust so that the bond becomes stronger and you can form one alliance. There's always going to be alliance when you actually like someone and you want the best for them, and vice versa, you know, when you get the enjoyment of company, then that becomes infectious each time, and hopefully each time you you see one another. It's similar to when uh when I see you, mate, you know, it's an infectious uh conversation and it's um not just around footy, you know, it's around our families and how the children going. So it's real an opportunity, just uh one kickoff where we last uh caught up and talked about Pikaar and uh your beach and you know and just how the family are growing and really um flourishing.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Help people shape their lives, mate. That's exactly right. Now it it it I I love the way we've started this conversation, Fila, and that it's we've we've already gone down this route that's that's much more than a game here, right? We're not talking X's and O's of of a sport here. We're talking about phrases like your upbringing moulds you to who you are. You we're helping people shape their lives that we're honoured when people ask us to mentor them because they enjoy the thought of us having influence on their lives. Now, how have you how's your upbringing moulded who you are and how's that evolved over time?

Identity, Upbringing, And Ego

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Yeah, it's another good question, mate. All these questions are gonna be uh right up there. Um I think the biggest thing is um we talk about the vision um and purpose, and I think um what's moulded me as a young person, being uh a New Zealand-born Samoan man, who I am now, had a lot to do with my upbringing. My parents both, my mum and my dad, they both immigrated from Samoa to New Zealand where they were both 19, and uh it's quite young. But also my my grandfents, well my my grandfather said to my mum, and then my grandmother, my dad's mother, just saying to her, you need to one, go to New Zealand, an opportunity to to find work. And the real purpose for them coming to New Zealand is one, yep, they're definitely out of their comfort zone, uh, but also to pretty much what we do is coaches to serve and to serve their family, and uh by them coming to New Zealand was to send money home back to the islands and support our family and uh and to keep growing. But that's that still continues today. So really uh even though that I wasn't born in New Zealand, I was brought up as a young Samoan uh child. Virabits. My home was very Samoan and how we did things uh uh was very indigenous in comparison to being Western uh world of upbringing. So there's a lot of uh parallels where you learn quickly, you make a lot of mistakes, you make a lot of mistakes, but you just can't make the same mistake over and over. I learned that pretty uh pretty quickly. My parents only knew what they knew and how they disciplined was the way they disciplined. And um, I guess that's um tolerance of of learning, but also there was a side of me where my ego didn't allow me to learn because I didn't consider the the solution or an answer. I wanted to continue doing what I was doing. But that probably slowed a couple of things in terms of my learning, but also when I look in reflection, it's probably the best thing that's shaped me to who I am today. And when I coach, there's a lot of um I love coaching and I love uh particularly young people making sure that they don't make the same mistakes, how we can get them more inquisitive around, how they own their their role, be the best versions that they can be, what support, how can we get people to enable you to to go another level, what else do we need? But also some of the things that uh that fear will will stop them, not trying, or or lack of communication or connection. So all of that, uh my upbringing was was really important to um it's really important in my life. Identity is really important. I I don't I'm truly clear on who I am. First and foremost, I'm I'm Saworn. I was born in New Zealand, so I'm a proud New Zealander. I was my mother's two brothers all played for Manu Saamoor. So the lineage of Pathway was always an opportunity for me to play for, play alongside on the shoulders of greatness with uh a lot of uncles. And um, but also my mum, she's a very uh talented sportswoman in her own right, uh, as my father. And the Simunu bloodline is my mum's bloodline. The few uh few uh all blacks that have that uh that line. Um and then but also played for Sarmour and which is great. So yeah, I always say to my dad, I get my talent from mum's side, and uh he quickly saves no son. You get it from uh the Tate side, and but also talks about the biblical uh terms of where the Bible was translated from from English to Samoa, and so that's where our Vau is a very uh famous village that translated the Bible, which is uh really important in terms of knowledge and sharing with our our children, my children. Then information doesn't get lost. So that's really important around uh the way I'm molded. I'm named after my mum's father, so it's um a really important name that people get it right. When I was young, I didn't realise the importance of that until my teachers were saying my name wrong. Uh so the vowels are obviously different, and they called me Philo. Um but the importance of my father when he taught me what the name meant, Philo Philo Ialii is my grandfather's name. And uh it's mixing amongst chiefs. So it's really uh names are important, particularly for indigenous people. Um we have a lot of Phylos running around. So if we're at a family reunion or there's uh it's really important that um we understand the importance of where we come from and and that's sort of important to me.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

I think that's a good one for coaches in general too, right? Like, particularly for Indigenous peoples, is to just get the name right. Like take that time, right? Is a is a learning piece for coaches. And I guess we could say the same for our experience in Japan, right? Like just the importance of pronunciating names is you know, making that effort to do it with the right sound if you can. Well endeavour to do, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Yeah, I think so, mate. And I think um I didn't really understand it until my parents heard uh the name being uh yeah said incorrectly. Um then the teacher was yeah, got a schooling in and uh how to pronounce it properly, and um but I think that's also a gift, but also an opportunity for people to to learn. In fairness, the teacher was really good, but then there's a lot of teachers that just knobbed it off and they said, Well, no, I'm gonna call you this. Um so but it's okay, it's just the the world we live in and we've just got to be agile, able to adapt, and then able to have a thick skin and just let it roll sometimes. But if you're like my dad or my father, he didn't let many things slide. Yeah.

Learning Empathy And Coaching With Care

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Well, I love it, mate. I I love your journey too, because the other thing about your upbringing is you you always had a hard edge as a player, but also as as a young man too, right? Like very physical, that sort of stuff. And as I would assume, like fr from your upbringing. How have you moulded that to then a coaching model? When we talked off air about empathy, and it's something that you said you've learned along the way, something which didn't come inherently through your upbringing, but you said empathy is a learned skill, skill, and you you've learned a bit from your daughters. And how have you moulded that through your coaching and your parenting? And what did you do and and why have you done it and why is it important?

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Yeah, these these good questions are gonna just keep coming, aren't they, Jarmy?

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Look, this is what we're all about here, Bulls. This is where that's great, mate.

Good Vs Bad Environments

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Keep subscribing and uh and Javi will uh keep coming at these questions. I think uh I reckon it's a really good uh place to start just around the heart. Yeah, I I like I think uh I uh had a rough edge uh when I played and the style. And I think um the the way a coach is and it was a really good learning from um uh Bill Freeman. And Bill Freeman was um he was my dad's rugby mentor. And um he helped uh my dad formalize the uh the one in the Star Wars rugby union. So really got it up running the governors what they needed. So so really the really important part with Paul Freeman when I got the opportunity to start coaching, he he pretty much said to me, uh Philo, when you start coaching, I want you to learn this, and I really want you to have a think of of what I'm about to tell you. And I said, Okay. So we sat down and we were talking. He says, Do not coach the way you've been coached. And I didn't really understand it when he said that. And uh then I asked him, I said, Well, what do you mean? And I said, Well, in real simplicity, he just said, Well, the people that you will start to coach of will be different to the way you've been brought up. And I still didn't understand it. And um, but I certainly understand it now that uh the wheel of learning always goes around in circles, and then and the biggest gift he gave me was to be inquisitive around how I wanted to coach and not just uh but Bill planted that seed and then had really good uh coaches. Scott Johnson at the Ospreys was uh great coach mentor. He was another one where it was uh around um how do you connect with people? Because as you know, like the coaching is people's business, it's about people and how do you get the best out of them. And um so rough edge, uh, that was the way I was coached, was rough, be told this democracy, you've got no I don't want you to tell me what you think. I want you to run through a brick wall. And so I would run through people or try and run through them and not use the skill sets that I did have. So I think the way I coach, I still have I still have edge, uh, because you need to have edge. And um, but I I coach with a lot of care and more understanding where the gift that I talked about before around my girls, learning around empathy. I never had any, I didn't have a bone in empathy. So that was that was taught. And uh it's a real gift that my four daughters have given me. My son, he possesses it naturally, because he's just been around the girls, and also my wife, she's helped me grow in that space as well. So I'm dominated by a woman in my house. And if you add my mum, then yeah, she doesn't have much empathy, but she she's got the the hard spoon and uh everything else. I say that respectfully. And and a woman are really important uh my life, and um there's so much learning just around just being with my best friend, but also my daughters. Um a lot of learning there just around the the rough edge uh that you say, and and I think uh you know, I was just thinking around can you coach rough edge? Um I I think you can. I think um but everybody's different, how they receive, what does it look like? And I truly believe that uh mentality, when you're coaching mentality, what is it, what do you need, uh the intrinsic motivation to dig into a deeper, darker space. Um I think um you can, but it's actually each individual is different to find that um that roughness, the tough uh edge that they probably haven't really dug into. So I certainly know that you can. Probably the roughness of the the edge. Yeah, but everyone's different and um but I I certainly think you can.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Yeah, isn't it fascinating? Like in in a different era, you you would have to have almost put in the softer side of things, right? Like you have to sort of add that bit to your game. Whereas the problem with mod modern coaching, you almost have to draw out the dark side, just the way modern society's gone, and that's probably for the best, but drawing that uh that aggression, that edge out of players for this particular game is a new skill set of a coach. Like for you growing up, that wasn't something you needed drawing out on, right? That was just that was you, that was life, and you had to almost work on this other side of stuff for post-rugby playing life.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Yeah, no, I think it's really well put together. And I think the the environment that uh you're in, uh wrong or rightly, environments is is really the culture that you create and it's the environment that you grow. And uh that there's probably only two environments, there's a good environment and there's a bad environment. And um I've been in a lot of bad environments, and but also been in a lot of good environments where there's a lot of learning and um a lot of learning just around the things that I want to get better at, and but they also have like-minded people that strive to do the same. Um challenge is really important, so that's where edge is uh important to have, where everybody's competitive, they're competing, it creates competition, it creates numbers that you're after in training, but also in the gym it's measurable, and then the other part for measurable is that you get players seeking more deeper understanding, so that you're seeing more of the players ask for feedback. Um so it's really the environment that you're trying to create is building consistency in what you're doing from day to day and how you train consistently to push to get the best out of individuals within your group. And then the tip of the spare is the tip of the spare. So if you're leading, saying Jami in your D program, then you're leading the program with really high intent and being educated for your group and then showing what it looks like, maybe not physically anymore, but you're looking in great knock, and then uh and I'm pretty sure you can, but also having the the skill sets as well. I've seen a couple of your podcasts and uh still learning, using chronos, you know, mantra is uh learning is my motivation, and I still use that to uh to date. Oh, he's the he's the master chrono. But also the ability to better educated I think I was listening to your podcast just around how he's so inquisitive around uh technology. Do do a line at lift or a scrum profile, film it, have delays, go and have a look at it, boys. Or you're gonna do this, have a play, you know, just the language of um of you know it's just I just want you to express itself and then what does it feel? You know, where the tension moments here and what did we learn, you know, throw it in the pot, you know, it's what I love about Chrono, just throw it in the pot of learning. So I just think it's how we get better, just in an environment, it's how you create it, and it's really it's a life, it's an ongoing 24-7 beast uh environments and cultures. It it's always evolving, and even when it becomes really good, and something I learned from uh Mark Hammett was just um you know, rituals are really important, but they can become quickly. I'm trying not to use uh profanity here. So just going so you got uh rituals and you got your S ones and then you got your B ones. So work with me, uh Jami, you can say the words, mate.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Shit ones. Is that what the S stands for?

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Yeah, so you got that one, right, mate. That's a ten out of ten right away. So it's ready, you got to The rituals and they become quickly not good ones. So then how do you jump on it and stay alive and alert around them? Because otherwise you become comfortable and you take your finger off the pulse and all of a sudden becomes something that was really awesome, comes something that just drops off the cliff and then becomes a very bad uh behaviour that we're looking with in the group. So then how do you how do you stay alive around things that are going really well, but you just got to make sure that um you always got an eye on the pulse and then you always got a finger on it. As you can quickly ask in collaboration with uh your leaders, how does that go? And as I say, coach, I think it's you know it's it's got to its best. I think we need to make a change or adjustment so that you're always staying agile around what you need within the group. But it's really the group that you're trying to grow.

Rituals, Standards, And Staying Alert

SPEAKER_00 24:29

I actually loved how you mentioned that. 24-7, it's a 24-7 beast, you said. And I I think and and how do we keep learning in life as much as the game? And it is as a coach, like it's all the same sort of stuff, isn't it? Everything's transferable from the elements you're doing inside this game to stuff which is happening off the field and in personal lives, right? Like we're trying to help educate and keep learning for a group of rugby players, but all the stuff we're learning is the people side, which is skills you learn outside the game just as much. How you interact with the person at the supermarket checkout or the coffee shop. Those interactions and those skill sets and that ability to connect with people there is the same skills that you do it for as a coach for your rugby teams. And and everywhere's a learner, everywhere's a learning playground, right? Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

And I think um, you know, there's an opportunity, there's always an opportunity, and this is a a gift from um Aaron Major, and um I love Aza and um really caring coach, but it's an opportunity to learn from anyone. So many uh lessons even now that I'm coaching, you know, doing a session with the under 14s, or I'm going to a club and and helping a group out, but actually just learning from, you know, just from anyone, you know, and the fathers that are there that are coaching, and um, but also there's just an opportunity. I learned so much from the players, and because they're they're the intelligence. I guess we're the knowledge at the table, and this is another errand major one, and really just around um the knowledge pool is we're trying to be respectful here as the the head of the puppets, the coaches, but the players are our intelligence, they get to feel it. This doesn't quite work, we're a little bit too narrow, uh, you're departing too early, so they're the intelligence of just the concepts or the ideas that coaches have, they bring it to life. But also not being afraid to not know, you know, and that was the gift from sort of feel like I'm name-dropping here, but it's but but that these are things that I've learnt over my time in coaching, and that a lot of the ideas and cops are all stolen from just good men, a good woman. Not all coaches, they're just people that um I've connected with and still stay in contact with for learning uh counsel. And I I think that's the biggest thing just around one sharing. I've got a a good mate of mine who's here coaching with me, Dale McLeod. He's my defense coach here at the Dragons. But I'm so grateful that he's he's uh brought Callie over here uh to take on this challenge. But what he brings for me is challenge, a more senior um person in my life from a coaching perspective. Want him to challenge me, I want him to poke me, have he considered this as an idea. I like I love him. He's a good mate of mine, and um and I think it's just really around our relationship when we're at the Sun Wheels working together, uh same bond. You know, just need someone to to challenge different skill sets that will complement mine. So it's really important around connection, cohesion, building cohesion, and ultimately building a chemistry that's strong, you know, you each other's blind spots, how we can help each other get out of that, uh get back to the state of focus and uh just really stay on task and then but also the ability to have fun as well, which is really important and enjoy each other's company and um so we get the best out of each other uh, you know.

Players As Intelligence, Coaches As Guides

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Well, I th I think that's right, mate. I uh well it is right, mate. And one of the things you just mentioned there about the different personality types, and if we go back to that um our experience together is we in the Sun Wolves, we had a very diverse coaching crew, um, but we all connected together and we're all appreciative of each other's skill sets and differences. And I I I think that is the gold piece of a coaching group is that you don't want everyone to be the same because then you miss the blind spots because we had such a diverse group, everyone's seen different things, but the joy that we had, and and you led this really well, is that connecting regardless and enjoying each other's company and appreciating this the different skill sets in a coaching group, and that magnified if you can all work together with all these different inputs and it comes together in a tight, united way, it's it's gonna magnify the group, which it did, rather than the opposite of just trying to have everyone the same, because then with everyone being the same in a coaching group, you're only gonna hit a very small part of the playing group where you've got diverse inputs, you're gonna probably someone in that group is gonna hit everybody in the team, all the players, and I think that's that's pretty cool. I've got a question for you though, mate. Like you you talked there about the learning things and how important it is as you as a coach, but have you had any specific examples where you've had made mistakes where you've grown a lot from and said I'm either keep gonna keep doing that or I'm not gonna do that again?

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Any of those sort of examples you'd care to share? Yeah, there's lots, mate. There's there's lot lots of failings just around, lots of things just around planning, assuming uh that people know But also just probably the the lack of communication. Uh still an ongoing uh process of making sure that um, you know, my staff are really clear on what we're trying to achieve from week to week. Yeah, so there's um a lot of lessons just around um how I keep improving. Um I do an exercise now and then just around when I look at myself and it and it's value-based. And um am I so if I use integrity as as a um uh as a value, the integrity for me is I'm gonna when I say I'm gonna do something, I I'm gonna try and live up to what I'm saying. And uh, but also to be time frame to try and make sure that there's a a measurable for me to get that done. Um sometimes when I become too busy, things won't get done, uh, as an example. And it um but it's the most important thing that I needed to get done because I said it was important. And if I don't get that done, then what's what's my word worth? So I'll reflect on it. Um really just you know, just really just look at myself and how I can be better around, how I can bring that to life. If I'm gonna say it, I'm gonna do it. And then um and there's other things as well, just around just making sure that um, you know, it's I'm a father, and I want to make sure that m my young son, who's 15 years old, he knows what that looks like. And so I need to be better around that. And then being a uh a role model for for him, and that's why he's here. So I need to be better in that space as well. And to be father, be present, be here, um, and just be available. Um, and then the other part is being a a better husband. So there it goes hand in hand, um, making sure that, you know, that uh all those little things of being a a in the coaching world and Sally understands it as well, she doesn't enjoy me bringing work home. So it's getting that balance right. And then we discuss offline just around de stressing, you know, and it's a stressful job. And how do we how do I take care of that side of things where you know I I'm sharing things as well? Uh I go for walks with Sal, uh and then uh good conversations with uh the boss and just make sure that uh I've got that um my relationship with her, there's a shared experience uh that we're doing together as well. Yeah, so all of that.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

What are the stresses, Fairlo? Like, what are the stresses of coaching? I like because they they're real, right? And everyone goes through them. What what are the ones that have stressed you out particularly?

Mistakes, Integrity, And Being Present

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Uh probably when I was younger, uh at the Sunwalls is an example, a new super team, one of the best competitions in the world. You go to uh different countries, you go to South Africa, you go to Argentina, Japan now, uh is part of that. You go to New Zealand and Australia. Performances uh and outcomes. Uh outcomes are really important that you're winning, and that's an outcome in the end. We all love winning. And um try not to uh let the losses take control of my life and the outcomes. So I can't control I can't control the the outcomes, but I can control the process of uh we're just improving uh day by day and we're moving in the right direction and the players believe in what we're trying to achieve together. Um and it's not just the coaches' team, it's it's um it's our team, but also how the players make it their team rather than the coaches' team. So there's a couple of ingredients where well, lucky though, the best teams are driven by players, not coaches. And uh they drive the standards, they drive the behaviour, they drive the consistency on the field, and they drive the consistency and the behavior off the field that's required to make sure that uh shortcuts aren't made uh we're helping each other, we're making sure that we're looking at the tape, the footage, we're feeding back to each other. So it's not coach-driven, it's actually the environment you're in that are driving the habits to form consistency and then hopefully greatness within the group. So then we're we're chasing saying that people can't see uh because they can't see it because they're not there day to day. But they see the outcome and then of the performance and then hopefully our preparations um as well as it can be. So then we can control that. So there's a lot of work in terms of the stand is the standard, and then that's the above the line, and really clear, and then these are the things that are clearly below the line, and then we need make some shifts, and it could be technical or tactical, uh it could be uh a physical part that we need to change. So Yeah, there's a lot of moving parts of the Jiggsville puzzle for this to happen, and then the enablers are who do you need to ensure that um you're gonna get there? And then it's collaborative uh discussion, a plan, and everything's a plan. There's got to be a plan, otherwise nothing grows and you can't nurture it.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

I heard a quote the other day about planning. If there's no plan or no strategy, then everything's an opportunity and you just sort of follow whatever whatever great thing comes your way, which is frustrating for people that are following you, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Yeah, brother.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

Hey, well, I love that, mate. I think that's what you just said is don't let losses take control of my life. And that is so apt for coaches in any level where you start to go up and down, fluctuate on the result on a weekend or whenever you're playing your games. And you you just referenced there that you focus on the learning wins, not the outcome ones. And I think that's a really massive statement in coaching in general, is you've got to have your little private things that you're you're ticking off, which stay the same regardless of a scoreboard result. Uh, because that scoreboard result can be influenced by things well out of your control, like in in rugby, it could be injuries or or whatever. But I also loved how you said you've got to stay present, whatever's happening, stay present. And you mentioned as a father, as a husband, whatever your circumstances is, but I think it's it's a great way to be thinking about the game is these stresses will be here, stay present, stay present in your personal life because that will affect the sporting context too, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:34

No, I agree, uh Joe. I mean, I think um it's a it's a lesson as well with Sally, she'll be on my case if I'm not present. And um I think uh don't get me wrong, I make the same mistakes over and over and I try not to, but um, you know, when yeah the role of coaching it's a busy job. And um I always say to our our players, this is the hardest job in the world, and it's the best job in the world, don't get me wrong, because you get to do things that a lot of people don't get the opportunity to to really try and uh to achieve as a in as an athlete and then how you become awesome at your craft, and it's not easy to to slam yourself uh in the gym and um how you physically change, you see growth, so it builds confidence and um and the other parts uh when you're doing your collision work or your detail around the tactical part of the game, but it's you've got you've got to be fit and um you've got to be ready, and if you can build your physical capacity, it builds your mental capacity and you can just keep growing. Um and I think that's the luxury of um of life, really. Like the old school, um I say old school is my my parents in their generation has such a good learning listening to them when they talk about fitness and the rawness and the old days, how things used to be done. And I think it's uh a great learning for our group, our young people to consider because the way they've been brought up now is totally different to the way that uh their grandparents or their greatparents were brought up. But it's such a richness in learning of what it used to be like. Could there be consideration of uh going back down that road and then training that way? Possibly. But I think you know, just the simplicity of the game is go forward, it's the principle, both sides of the ball, go forward, go forward, and um try and score tries. If you can do it is that simple and with principles, then um I think the players will will catch on it pretty quickly.

Stress, Process Over Outcomes

SPEAKER_00 38:37

Mate, you just said physical capacity builds mental capacity. And like I think that's amazing. Like, like it's something that's often missed in coaching, is that your own physical health and well-being and strength and all that stuff as a coach, whilst it doesn't seem important, it's actually setting a hugely good example for the group, right? Like if you can be 55 years old and be a sensational Nick as a coach, you are role modelling not just for the players who are playing now, but also what a 55-year-old person looks like in good shape, right? So you're actually you're you're creating standards which will surpass just this moment in time where we're playing this sport. You're you're leading the by example of how to be a great person, looking after yourself, staying physically and mentally capable at 55. And I think that's special, man. I think sometimes in coaching, particularly in older school thought processes, there's a lot of coaches that don't do much. I know we've seen it, but it's that's the old way of coaching where you just ha have a few beers and drink a few pies and stand on the sideline and bark orders. That's very much gone in the modern coaching. Modern coaching, I reckon, is we're a little bit more aware of some of these physical capacity things where we can do a way better job leading our teams if we're physically able to be the example. For us in general, it it's gonna lead to better health for us anyway later in life and keep you coaching longer.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Yeah, no, a hundred percent, I mean I think um you know, if you're not well you know, life's gonna be a little bit shorter uh until you uh make some changes and and it's really important. And then like I'm not a grandfather yet, um but I'd like to be. Uh at some at some stage and not now girls. Um but there's a lot of time for that. But I just think um, you know, like um I'm not 55 yet, but I will be shortly in June. But I just think um I've rounded up feeling just so everyone knows. Yeah, no, I appreciate it, mate. But I just think um things to look forward to are really important and to aspire to and aspiration uh really important for everyone to aspire to be uh my golf needs to improve, but to to aspire for my golf to improve, I need to go to the driving range where Sally's been uh on my case. So just go back to you know, things won't grow if you're not actually working on it. And um, but I just think um aspirations are really important, but then the next part for aspirations is well, what are you doing about it to achieve the goal? Um I think that's really important for me. Uh just as a coach, that um, you know, like you're saying, you know, if we're fit and able and able to move and um we're able to uh to actually just show what it looks like. Um and then probably can't be as agile on the field anymore as such, but um yeah, able to be present and able to have those type of conversations.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Well, I think it's also like when you're in as good a physical nook as you can be, it actually creates a bit of an energy around you, right? Like when you're fit and healthy, you have a different aura. Your your vibration levels are different, right? They just they just are you can feel when someone's in good health and all that stuff. And there's this cool concept called the heliotropic effect balls, which is this kind of concept that sunflowers naturally follow the sun as it passes over the sky from east to west. And they all they turn their heads, their flower heads, they follow the energy source. And I really like that analogy, and that's the same as us as coaches. We are the sun, and our teams and our players are naturally following the energy source as it moves. And when you understand that that's like a biological thing which happens, it inherently happens to coaches. The players are all watching you and following your energy. Now, if your energy is such that it's a great thing to follow, you're gonna bring people with you on a whole number of areas, as opposed to just being down in the weeds and the roots around the dirt. Sometimes you have to go down to do those things, those little nuts and bolts things and yell on the sidelines and stuff. But if you're constantly down there, those sunflowers aren't following an energy source. And I think it's important that you want them to, and you want to be a great energy source. How's that, mate? How's that deep analogy for you? Does that tickle your fancy?

Physical Capacity Builds Mental Capacity

SPEAKER_01 43:13

No, it it does, mate. And I think um I'm gonna throw one uh back at you and then it's really just um the subwood proverb, and I think um say Lala uh Mapasua spoke about it. Well, alle pule or le tautua and it's a sumward proverb around um the pathway through leadership is through service. Like anything, we talk about leadership models and um but it's really around serving. But it's hard to serve if you know, if you talk about uh if you're not well or you're not fit, then it's hard for you to serve. So then making sure that um that you're healthy to to actually be part of your the process of your purpose, you have to be fit, fit for purpose, so that you can do your job as best you can and you're the best version of you. And I think um and that was a a really strong proverb that my father gave me. Well, it's really quite a a strong way of being the way we've been brought up, and um it's really around how do you serve, and I still serve my parents, and I still serve uh people that are older than me, and I serve people that are younger than me because there's a learning, there's an opportunity to learn from each other, and um ideology and methodology they they go hand in hand, and then I try and make sure that um that I'm working on my self-being and my identity, and then try and bring it to life uh with the way I do things from day to day to build consistency with people. When I was a young coach, uh got some feedback around oh Bulls a little bit inconsistent, uh, and that was probably uh when I was bluehead, redhead, and uh just getting my emotions right. But it was a really good lesson from my players giving me feedback, and then for me to find a solution when I do get frustrated or things weren't going to plan is how do I find a way for me to stay calm? How do I find a solution? How can I calibrate and have a good conversation where it's quite honest and where I don't go off the Rick scale and um which I I know I have done in the past as a young coach, but I've learned from those experiences as well, and really grateful for for for for for feedback. Um and I think that's part of the growth is actually just getting feedback and it's an opinion, but um the opinions are really important and it's really Important that you consider the opinions. Where when I was a young athlete and got feedback from coaches, I didn't consider didn't consider it. So then I wasn't growing in those areas that I was getting feedback, so it was no coincidence why I was getting picked. So then I had to make a choice, which we all do in life, you have to make a choice and then uh and consider people's opinions and um and then try and action it if you believe that's uh the way to move forward. So there's no real different differences in life. Uh get feedback and then consider it and then action it straight away. And what a gift if you action it and then you get improvement. So I'm really open for those conversations with my coaches and um and feedback is is a great tool uh for consideration for growth.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

Mate, I I don't think I've actually heard that sort of phrasing before, Bulls, that feedback is an opinion, yet it's always worth considering that opinion. Because sometimes when you talk about feedback, you kind of think about as if it's the oracle and that it's it's it's lot it's concrete. But what you're saying there is feedback for you either you as a player or you as a coach is just someone's opinion, which it is, but it's still worth considering the opinions of others. But you have to be almost an independent judge on it. You have to take your own ego and and the emotion out of it and go, is there some contextual good stuff in here that I can draw out and and take learnings from? And be really open about that, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:19

Yeah, yeah. That that's being all it's really My problem was my ego didn't consider it. And then I just thought I'm working listener, I've got no problem. But I wasn't listening. That was the problem. And um the problem is not listening and considering. So I think that's the the real essence of are you listening? And then if you are listening, what are you hearing? And then if you're hearing it, tell me what what it was was said to you. And then most of the time when people try and recall, they remember the very last bit that I just said, but they can't remember the middle part or the starting conversation. So I think it's a really good lesson for everyone. If they want to be yeah, consider uh um consider feedback when hearing it, but then not actually hearing it and coming up with uh your answer without listening to the whole conversation. That happens a lot, and I see it a lot, and uh become an expert on uh you're not listening. And um and I think it's really just um an awareness of people as well. And some are become blind spots because they're not actually listening. They're uh figuring out an answer uh to to what you're trying to come across with. It's not a bad thing, but it's um something I've experienced in and but for me as uh as a learner, yeah, it's really considering uh opinions and then putting a plan in place to say, yeah, I agree with this and moving forward.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

One little thing you've maybe you've sparked in me, mate, is just um around this, this feedback is an opinion, is I think it's a really good skill set for a coach to have is to have a sounding board outside of the game and your spouse is your is your your most easy one, but for the to chuck any problems their way in terms of what do you think about this? I do this at home all the time. Is this is what I've done, or this is what I'm thinking, or this is what I'm doing on the rugby context. Do you think I've nailed that or do you think I've overstepped the mark there? And when you have an independent person like your spouse, if you have one, is and if you're considering their opinion and you're letting it sink in and going, hmm. And I think particularly for men of our era, to have a a woman's perspective sometimes is a really good one worth considering. And we talked earlier about that empathy, which I know you've you'll don't mind me saying this hasn't always come naturally to you, but you have someone that does have it to then say their opinion through that context and that lens. If you're prepared to listen and then think about what you're hearing, it opens up a whole new realm for you, right? Like there's so much learning you can do outside of the grass with different people. And I know you've learned a lot from Sal in that regard, haven't you? She's your sounding board and keeps you thermo-regulated in some of the stuff you're doing, right?

Service, Consistency, And Feedback

SPEAKER_01 50:08

No, 100%, mate. And I think um, you know, that you're saying uh a different lens, but also just a different voice uh for consideration, just how things are going are really important. You know, with uh a senior coach or it could be uh a senior mentor uh for some counsel and and then just nothing wrong with the boss uh with Sal. And uh she's normally uh right most of the times.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

Well, mate, maybe that's because you're always blowing out all the time. Yeah, quite right. Quite right, quite right. Hey mate, um Philo, it's got to that time, mate, where these these sessions just fly by. And so I get to this sort of point where I like to keep it at a level where coaches can listen to it on their way to work and on commutes and things like that. So I always finish with this the same question because it stirs up a lot, mate. And it's this what is one belief that you hold about culture that you think your peers would disagree with? Well, rephrase that again. What was it? What's something you believe in about culture, rugby? Even life fellow that you believe in, that you reckon your contemporaries or your peers wouldn't agree with.

SPEAKER_01 51:21

Yeah, interesting one. I just talked about listening, and I think that the biggest thing when you're making a decision, particularly with head coaches, everyone says that the head coach needs to make the make all the big calls. I don't believe that's uh the truth. I think um head coaches should make the final call. But for me, when you're making decisions around selections, it's really trying to get the the nouse of your specialist coaches and getting their opinions around what is the best group for this week. But still in mind is making sure that when selection has been discussed, that is cohesion. So you've got your spine in place, you got the key players that you need, and then obviously there's um then you're talking around loading, how many games has he had and and so forth. But I think what I've learned over time, and there probably some coaches will disagree, definitely around uh methodology, and um, but all I'd like to get all the my coaches in the room, have a have a discussion around selection and then make sure that um everyone's opinions being considered and challenged, because that's the only way that we're gonna improve is that we challenge the way we do things, this is how we do things here, is compared to this is what we do at the Crusaders or do what that's what they do at the hurricanes. So it's really so that that's probably something that people may uh disagree with. It's just how things are done, and I think it's not a bad thing as well. But I think I'm really open to learning how other people do things because I'll consider it as well. I like that. Uh certainly like what Jama does here, great energy, blue sky thinking, and then pulling things out. Uh really open to that. I'm a blue sky thinker as well, and just um, but I just think pulling it all together because everyone in the room has different strengths and superpowers, and it's really considering all of those before we make a final decision, and it's just not um at the end of the day, as a head coach, they will get judged on selection and results, and I have no problem with that. Um, and then I'm happy to die on the sword, and if it's time for me then to move on, and that's okay. But as long as the process I have in place and grow belonging and grow togetherness as much as we can, then it's okay to disagree, but at the same time that they're being heard, and so we can move forward and we can keep growing as a group, and then the players are the fruit that they keep growing, they keep maturing and getting the the the juice of of growth and um really flourishing because of the nurture and the care within uh the team. Now, don't get me wrong, that is just a a thinking process of how we come together as one, but it's all moving in the same direction, and it really goes back to your first question: what is culture? And it's really the substance of what you're trying to nourish 24-7 and making sure that you're trying to grow. And um, it's one of the hardest parts of growing in an environment where it produces the favorable outcomes uh week to week and day to day.

Selection, Cohesion, And Final Calls

SPEAKER_00 54:33

The substance you're trying to nourish 24-7. Philo, I actually love that, mate, that head coaches don't make all the calls, but they do make the final calls. I think that was how you opened up, and I think that's a really enlightening piece for coaches. I reckon a lot wouldn't have thought of it like that, and and there's a there's a different perception there. Philo Tia Tia, what an absolute privilege to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today. If I may, I'd like just to wrap up with my three takeaways that I got from this awesome chat today, and that is this. Number one, you said your upbringing moulds you into who you are, which I think is a lovely statement. And you made the reference of not to coach the way that you were coach, because the people you will coach will be different from you. So be inquisitive around the way you want to coach and really lean into that fact that everybody's upbringing has shaped them differently. And I think that's a wonderful thing to remember as a coach. Number two, we chatted about this concept of physical capacity, builds mental capacity and be the example that you want to be for your players. You are the energy source, and players are watching you in everything you do, and so your physical capacity is an important one, not just for the game, but for helping players grow in life as well and be the role model of what they could potentially turn into. It's a lovely big picture, a blue sky thing around what you can be as a coach. And number three is this feedback is an opinion. I love that that feedback is an opinion, but it's an opinion worth considering. You've got to put your own stamp on it and put your own context on it. But ask the question: are you actually listening and what are you hearing? And I think it's important that you can do that with a lot of different people, not just your players and your coaches, but your sounding boards outside the game. Because they have an unbiased lens on you and they have a different lens. So listening to opinion and giving it consideration, you don't have to buy into it, but at least giving it the opportunity to be heard is a great coaching practice. Fellow Teatia, what a privilege to have you here, my friend, on the Coaching Culture podcast.

SPEAKER_01 56:43

My roll lover, uh Jami. I loved how you facilitated and drew all that out. That was amazing.