Kieran Read: What I recommend you do, if you were All Blacks captain.

One careless comment can shrink a player for months. One intentional conversation can change a career. That’s the tension at the heart of leadership and it’s exactly where Kieran Read goes with us. From describing himself as a shy kid who didn’t speak up, Kieran walks through how he grew into captaining the All Blacks, and what that journey teaches anyone trying to build a stronger team culture at work or in sport. 

We get specific about what “culture” actually is: the behaviors you tolerate, the standards you model, and the small interactions that new people copy to fit in. Kieran breaks down why leadership is action first, how elite captains empower others instead of dominating the room, and why connection and vulnerability are not “soft” extras but the foundation that makes accountability and high performance possible. If you lead with pressure and skipping the human side, trust erodes fast and it’s brutal to rebuild. 

Kieran also shares a practical approach to leadership development: priming confidence through real opportunities. The message for coaches, managers, and founders is clear. Your belief has to show up in what you delegate, what you back, and how you tell the truth in tough moments like selection and performance chats. We wrap with a reminder to “remember influence” because every conversation is bigger for the other person than you think. 

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Transcript

From Shy Kid To Captain

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Uh no, I wasn't a guy who could get up in front of the team and speak. I was still that shy kid. Then it suddenly I'm captain. You just remember influence. And I talk to leaders now about influence, and it's like every conversation you have is is is big for that person. Steve Hansen is probably one of the most intuitive coaches I've had and brilliant at what he does and what he can speak. You cannot be all this one way of accountability and excellence and just grinding guys. Like that just does not work unless you've created the start of space. You know, if your X and I is just there and you don't, you know, see that damage that you've maybe created on a player because you're, you know, been a bit harsh on them, and that damage is lasting, and that trust is gonna be so hard to rebuild.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring, I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Karen Reed. Karen is the fifth most capped all black of all time, 127 tests, 52 as captain, as well as 156 games for the Crusaders and four championship titles. He has won international rugby player of the year, won two World Cups, and received an Order of New Zealand merit in ONZ for services to the Crown and the country of New Zealand. His success on field is rarely emulated. These days, Karen passes on his leadership and learnings as a leadership coach, and these are absolutely first hand lessons from someone who has had to implement them all at the very highest level. Karen, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Thanks so much, Ben. Yeah, very kind words. Thank you. Always nice to hear those kind of things come across your, you know, your ears again. That's that's cool.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Isn't it isn't it cool when you just read back some of those milestones and when you stop and reflect, you go, wow, what a what a checklist of achievements.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Yeah, I don't know if it was like UA, but for a while there I kind of cringed every time I heard those things. Because I don't know, you just as a Kiwi, you maybe don't feel like you can be proud or you want to kick yourself down and be humble. But I guess now I'm gett getting to that point where yeah, you you realise how special it was and the awesome times you did have.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

So yeah, no, very um, very proud of that time. Isn't that an interesting statement? Because I, as a as a Kiwi as well, that humble nature is built into the culture of New Zealand, isn't it? So it's it's cool you saying it's hard. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

And I think it, you know, you could look around the world and say everyone's got different strengths and and maybe we should celebrate that more and and we probably should. But also I know that kind of humbleness and where we know where we come from as Kiwis, and we're just like every other bloke or or woman in in town, you know, like and that's how we feel. And I think that's sometimes a difference for us as well when we do go and compete around the world. Um so I wouldn't want us to lose that kind of side of who we are.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Is it and and that that's probably goes in line with this podcast, right? You gotta keep what makes your DNA you, but then you're constantly reaching out for those little bits to improve on the whole time, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Yeah, you are. I I think definitely, you know, you can't sit still. Culture, I think, is really based on I think genuinely like who you really are, you know, and what you stand for. And I think, you know, whether that's a team or an individual, like that's if you've really got a great understanding of that, then and really set you up to have a a great culture and and and I think genuinely you can be that authentic person or authentic team that you want to be, you know. And I I think, yeah, in the teams I was involved in here in New Zealand, like we we had that and it made it a bit easier as an individual to step into that environment and know exactly where you stood and and what you what you stood for.

Culture Is Behavior In Action

SPEAKER_00 4:50

As an individual in a good culture, you know exactly where you stood straight away the moment you walked in. Is that something which is is big? But before we go there, actually, Karen, how do you how do you define culture for you? Have you got a definition of it?

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Yeah, look, culture is a hard one to define. Yeah, for me, if you see it, it's actions, it's behaviors, right? So you know, if I was to walk into um any organization or team, I'd look at how the interactions are between players, you know, employees, you know, how are they going? How do they interact with, you know, um clients, customers, where culture gets exuded out, right? So that's what I'd look for, and that's how I'd know what the culture is like. You know, how you I guess how you build a culture is through having a really strong collective purpose and then and then setting up your environment that is where you want to be, right? So your environment will dictate where that culture kind of heads. You know, are you happy just to let things slide and it's and it's pretty easy, or you after something a bit more in terms of like a real kind of learning excellence culture? So like you'll be able to dictate that. But yeah, definitely it's your it's your behaviors, actions. That's culture. It's not the pictures on the wall and words that are up everywhere. That's that's part of it, part of bringing it alive, but it's definitely not defin not the defining part of culture. Yeah. I love that phrase you said, culture gets exuded out. Yeah, there you go. Quote that one. That's a good one. I think like, you know, it does. Like you go, you come in there as a new person, whether you're young or or or a new person into a team, right? Like you want to fit in. Like, that's how it is, and you'll fit into what the norms are, and the norms of the culture, and uh generally led by those leaders, by the senior guys in the team, and they'll pretty quickly show you what's normal here. Um, and you'll start to kind of you know reenact what what what you're seeing. So um, yeah, it's the behavior, those, those actions that you see.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

As a young person, you want to fit in and you reenact what's what's been portrayed in front of you. Yeah. What is the role of the leader in that, Karen? That's a space that you're very good in. Is the leader's job to help fashion that culture? Yeah, leader's job is very important.

Leaders Set The Real Standard

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Like, I think they'll set the standard in terms of how you want your culture to be. And culture, when I'm saying culture, like culture encompasses a lot, right? Like it, as I said, your behaviors around accountability, it's culture, your behaviors around, you know, making mistakes in terms of rugby, like at trainings, or you know, how you're gonna look as a team when you turn up to the bus, you know, you're gonna let your your shirts be out and your socks down and all this, or are you gonna, you know, present yourself wow. All those things add up, right? Um, the leader will be the guy who leads us, and that's natural, I think, as we as we look into teams and um that person who's got that power, coaches, leaders, or it's captains, um, will have the ability to kind of send the team on their way. Um, and yeah, what you end up doing ultimately in terms of your actions is what the team's gonna, you know, follow. So you could say one thing that we're a team that does this or is we're disciplined or looks after each other, and then you know, the next day you walk past someone, you know, and don't even have a conversation with them and just walk straight past a young player. The young player looks at you, go, no, we don't care about each other, you know. It's all about individuals. So yeah, bringing that those words and things into actions is definitely set from the top.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Yeah, I love that, mate. And I've actually got a quote from you. You said, the jersey doesn't make you a leader, your actions do. And I think that's a cool phrase. Like, is that is that what you're meaning? Like being an all-blacks captain didn't make you a leader.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

No, it didn't. Like, I I think you know, you can have a C next to your name, or the coach, or uh whoever it is, um, be the loudest person on the team, suddenly you think you're the leader. No, it's it's it's your actions. And I was pretty lucky. I had a pretty cool kind of apprenticeship for me, eight years behind Richie McCaw, obviously. Crusaders and All Blacks, um, 2008 to 2015, where I trained with him every day, and we did all the acts just to get all gym together, everything, right? So I was able to, and we talk about actions, that's the ultimate guy who led through actions. And so um that has a big role to play. And certainly if you're that type of leader who can lead in that space, I think ultimately everyone has to lead through actions, but you can also add certain other things that that will help you. But for me to have a guy like that, the ultimate captain, is the guy that I could look up to and see how he operated was, you know, it was pretty special. And uh he led for actions. And as a player underneath him, you did not want to let him down because of the trust and and the respect that he had earned through himself putting his own body on the line every single, every single day.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Did he do any other big takeaways? Like he led through his actions, but was there anything else that that really separated him out as a leader?

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Look, he You know, he is ultimately very driven. Uh so able to persist, able to be really proactive in his own thinking, like just every time, no matter, you know, what it was, if it was, you know, the a massive test match or us down at Rugby Park and you know, a week off and having to do our training session, it was him going 100 mile an hour because he knows this is going to help him get to where he needs to. So as a leader, that persistence, that ability to uh persevere was something I enjoyed from him. Uh Richie wasn't a you know, and like he was a good speaker, he could um articulate very well, but he wasn't the guy who would get up and dominate that space. When he spoke, he listened. You know, I remember my first time in the all black environment, and you sit down in the in the meter room, you're shit scared. There's all these other guys in there, and then Richie gets up and tells you the expectations of what an all black is. And yeah, you're walking out of there going, Holy hecker, this is um this is what I've got to live up to here. So it's uh uh he was able to put that on on guys in a nice way, but also when I think as a leader, you you don't it's not all on one person. Uh so I learned that from Rich as well. So he was great at utilizing his dans, uh Conrad's, you know, like for a long period of time. Like I probably did more talking than him um on the field, you know, like between 12 and 15. Like because he knew he didn't you know when you skip it telling the boys and and being that real big voice all the time. He could sit back and be this big pitcher and he utilized the guys around him. So like for myself in the Fords, I could be the guy who was, you know, ripping into um the team if we needed it, um, be a bit more domineering, be a bit that way. Um so I played that role to to help him out. Yeah, so he was yeah, smart in that way. Um able to yeah, control the room, but also empower at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Was that something that you like as a as a leadership group, he said to you, can you be this?

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Or did it just organically sort of happen that you uh like I think around the time I came into the All Blacks, it was 2008, like that whole leadership group was building um and becoming this big thing. You know, so suddenly I'm walking into meetings and the players are leading them and and things like that. And then I got the opportunity to start to lead in certain ways. Um and I guess earn that respect from the team, from Rich. Uh and probably, you know, at a period of time, um, you know, between at some point before 2015, like I was trying to, I was saying, Rico, get out of here. You know, with all due respect to this guy who's the greatest ever, I felt like I was wanting I was ready to lead this team and I wanted to lead it. And I, you know, I led the team 12 times in that period because he was injured and things, and I yeah, so I was leading the team a little bit. I was feeling like I could, you know, take this team forward, you know. But uh and then when he comes back, I'll slot into that role. But in my mentality, I'm going, man, I I want to be that guy, you know, like and I was loving it. So like I I certainly pushed, but we had different strengths, and that's the thing as as leaders, we're the same but completely different. And that's partly probably how we brought brought up, you know, he's a country kid in North Otago, um, South Auckland boy, you know. Grew up in the multicultural kind of area, you know, for me, that kind of person. So I led a bit that way around connections and around being able to connect with people, you know, really strongly. So uh yeah, it was a it was set up nicely. And and he was, and Rico was the leader who didn't feel yeah, like he was threatened or anything. He actually embraced all those other guys who were ultimately amazing leaders around New Zealand, and we put them together and it was probably a unique time um to have that many great leaders in that side, but it seemed to work and we're able to push each other and and get the best out of each other.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Is that is that a bit of an ability of a leader? Is that the ability to follow too, right? Like it's important piece of leadership you've got to understand.

Finding Your Authentic Leadership Style

SPEAKER_01 14:14

I think, yeah, I think when following, it's probably watching, listening is probably the the kind of words I'd say around leadership is we can think, we've got to be up in front and do everything, right? And say everything and be that guy out front. But I never captained any sides growing up. Like I went to a small school in Papua Cutta, so it was Rosal College. Um, it wasn't a small school, it was a big school, over 2,000 kids, but we had one rugby team, you know, like uh we scraped together our first 15. So it wasn't, you know, like I wasn't a big fish. So I kind of kept that mentality as I made I made secondary schools, under 19s, under-21s teams, but I wasn't the captain. In fact, I said boo, probably said zero words. The guys I played with would have said I was a mute because I was very quiet. But in that time I was like watching and listening, like and I was I was you know, I was intelligent kind of guy. So I was like, yeah, they're they're doing this well, they're doing that well. Um and then it took a bit of you know, kind of pushing from my coaches eventually to kind of bring out a bit of the potential, the leadership potential that I probably had in there. But yeah, I think generally when I first started leading, I I thought I had to be this person that got up and spoke, and I was not good at that. I was a shy kid. Canterbury when I was 22, Rob Penny made me captain, and that was you know pretty scary. And I tried to be someone I wasn't, and it didn't quite work out that well initially. So through some good advice, I realized, hey, look, strip that right back. Don't try and be anyone you're not. So I made a few mistakes in that aspect in an environment that wasn't so high pressure. Yeah, NPC was a decent comp, but it's not super happy. And the pressure's not quite as high. Um and was able to learn from that and and progress, I guess. So uh yeah, that's you know, the leadership part of it just grew out of me. I think it was probably always in there, but I had to be pushed, had to be given the opportunities. What sort of mistakes are we talking? Oh, look, I'm I'm talking being, you know, trying to be someone I wasn't. Leadership starts with being authentically you. Uh so really understanding who you are and what you stand for. And I wasn't a guy who could get up in front of the team and and speak. I was still that shy kid who I felt like I was at Roseall. And this is only a few years you know, past, and it suddenly I'm captain in Canterbury, and there's these 30-year-olds in the team, guys who played over the 50 games for Canterbury, and I probably said you know, I tried to be someone I wasn't really, and um and that was pretty clear to that you know it wasn't genuine. Um and so I I got some great advice early on. Like so we went from first game losing to Mun or two at home in the NPC that year to then going, oh you might have played on the 2008. We played in we played Wellington in the final up there, we won. Um and uh so it was a hell of a learning curve for me, like you know, to to be the skipper through that year. And to be honest, I you know, I look back and I go, yes, I was a skipper, but I probably, you know, I learned to utilize the senior guys to do the speeches. I learned um use my teens to do all the talking around decision making and stuff, and and my strength was connecting one-on-one with guys, like being a bit more demanded. I needed to on the training paddock because it was just me and them, and I could have that conversation a lot more comfortable for me. So yeah, I I found my best way of leading early on, and that was probably how it was. So you you your way was a little bit more those one-on-one rather than the the stand-up in front of the rooms. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, it was, and that was kind of what I felt comfortable with. Um, and you did need to learn to do those other things. Uh, but I I stayed within my um capacities, I guess, and didn't try and do, you know, initially I think I tried to be someone I wasn't really in that space, and essentially that's not gonna work out very well for you if you continue doing that. Um, but yeah, it worked into what I was best at, which was definitely those connection points, the one-on-one conversations, um, all that stuff, which um, you know, for me was all about building a team together that trusted each other. That's from my upbringing, that's kind of what I held as what's the best thing for us as a team. And for me as a leader, I need to find that connection point with each individual, and then we can be demanding, be hold each other to account from there and and try and get the best uh outcome we we can.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Yeah. How do you find the connection points with people? Is it just a conversational skill set?

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Yeah, I it's conversational skill set, it's uh empathy. So you actually, you know, there's a few skills there, which is around, you know, that emotional intelligence side. So that's um really understanding emotions. So, you know, what's giving off and things, which is uh sometimes a hard skill for us to have, but I probably felt like I naturally had that within me, just maybe purely with um yeah, the cultures I was brought up with. I was I was able to handle that stuff. So yeah, being being able to empathize and then being able to be finding connection points. So essentially, like when I was an All-Back captain, like the young guys coming into the team, like they're not gonna come sit next to me at lunch. You know, as much as I've liked them to be, you know, I want the environment to be that they're gonna come and sit next to the skipper. I know they know who that young person is in your your first year in the All Blacks. You're you know, you're kind of walking around a little bit uh on eggshells in some way. So look, as the skipper, I go and I'll go and sit next to someone new every kind of meal if I could. Um, you know, initiate just a little conversation. That's all it takes. You know, that's all it takes. Find something that connects you both, whether it's something around their siblings, what they're passionate about. Yeah. Something like that, I think is really, really crucial. Just tells them that, hey, look, I'm here for you. I'm not, it's not all pure rugby. You know, at some point down the track, there's gonna be a conversation I'm gonna have to have that is potentially um, you know, a performance-based conversation that I need you to to up your game. I don't want to be having that conversation of I haven't created a little bit of uh vulnerability and and trust and and bonds uh before that. Yeah. So that's that's the reasoning behind it.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Well mate, I love that because this is not just for captains, this is for leaders, this is for coaches, everybody, isn't it? Because when we're talking about this stuff, some sometimes it gets labelled as, oh, that's airy-fairy soft stuff. But what you're actually saying is where it's super relevant is further down the line when you have to have a performance chat, the trust and the vulnerability and rapport you've developed prior allows you to go deeper and have more impact in those conversations later, correct?

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Yeah, correct. Like I just think you cannot be all this one way of accountability and excellence and just grinding guys. Like that just does not work unless you've created this other space. The vulnerability, the trust, the connection is uh it has to be first. It has to be. You have to find something there that or at least under get the team to understand that that's what we're trying to achieve. Like we're we're a squad of trying to get the best out of each other and we get the best out of each other through these points. And then you tag on a little bit of learning mindset, then the accountability the tough conversation can be had and it can be had in a nice way that uh the players will understand it uh better.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

I love that phrase you just talked about, the create the other space. I reckon that's a that's a phrase that a a lot of coaches would or leaders probably don't think about, isn't it? Like there's a whole nother side to rather than just the X's and O's, the performance side of what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

I feel it has to be part of the conversation. You just cannot be performance doesn't come without this stuff, this other stuff, right? So it's not this and this, it's actually intertwined and it's it's it's all part of how you approach your conversations, how you approach a team meeting, you're sitting in the change room somewhere, and you know, the boy they need something more than just straight what it is, or the girls as well, you know, like they need something that's more than just hey, you're telling me what to do. Uh so you gotta find ways to create space and um to do that. Sometimes it's hard because it's time constrained. So I get it, you know, Club Footy or wherever you are, and you get people coming in from work and you're straight into it. It's like okay, you know, I genuinely feel that the best connected teams will perform better on the on the fields. Um maybe it is time to find some time to um you know, have that ability to to to connect and and get away outside of the game.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

The best connected teams will perform better on the field. It's Is there any way to measure that?

SPEAKER_01 24:00

I don't know. I don't know. I genuinely like if I look through the Crusaders teams, I play at the Allbacks teams, I we felt like we're all connected. You know, for the Crusaders for a number of years, we we weren't quite successful. You know, we went to a couple of finals, went to like semifinals every year, bar one, but we went eight years without winning a title. So other teams would look at us and be like, we're successful. You know, we weren't in our own eyes for that period. And I look back and I at the time I thought like our culture was great and everything, but I look back and there's little things in there. So it's hard to measure, but you can probably feel it and you see it just through uh there's only little things that little murmurs that you hear from the guys who are missing selection, and if your culture's not great, they're starting to infiltrate everyone else. They're not happy with potentially some of the things the coaches are doing. Um and it's only tiny little things, but that's still the little cracks that kind of can really splinter teams and and ultimately to succeed at that top level that we're talking about, right? Yeah, like you just cannot have any of those little things that just kind of come in. So I don't know if you can measure exactly how you get that connection, but you have to, as a leader, be really onto it to understand if there's things that aren't quite right and how you can, you know, fix them or keep on top of them, make sure that team's in the right space.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Yeah. And this this is why these conversations are so important because it is hard to measure. And often, because it's hard to measure, people don't think it's important, or if I can't measure it, I won't do it. And this is this is what you're highlighting here.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Yeah, and that's this the most EQ side of coaching of leading that I'm 100% on board of you cannot, you know, you have to be at least partly skilled in this area, and if not, you have to have good people around you who can who can help you to see these things. You know, if you're X and O's and just there and you don't, you know, see that damage that you've maybe created on a player because you've, you know, been a bit harsh on them, and that damage is lasting, and that trust is gonna be so hard to rebuild. You know, be a bit straighter with this guy, I'm gonna come around the corner and you know talk about the positive stuff as well as the thing that we can get better at. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Right. This is this is a really cool conversation, Karen, because I well I was just gonna go back because I loved it how you weren't a captain ever before you got, and then at school, you couldn't you weren't captain of your your one team at school, not a chance you were shy. And you go on to captain.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

I did captain my first 15, but uh so I was a captain, but I don't know how much I captain it at Rosal.

Coaches Prime Confidence With Opportunities

SPEAKER_00 26:41

But it does highlight the fact that it's a skill set to learn and grow yourself. In your example, they've gone on without much experience in Cat C to then captain the best rugby team in the world for a long, long time. It shows that it is a skill set you can learn and grow. And you talked about the fact that some coaches had to push and pull this side of stuff to get the best out of you. Have you got any examples of who were those coaches? And was there anything specifically that they did which had a big impact on your leading?

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Yeah, I was I was so lucky. Um, had some great coaches. Robbie Deans was one that I feel as coaches in terms of players or trying to grow leadership, it's give that player confidence, tell them that you believe in them, but it can't just be that. Then you've actually got to genuinely give them the opportunities to show that you believe in them. So whether that's through selection, whether that's through giving them opportunities to lead in certain things. Yeah, so giving them that tangible opportunity to lead. And my first ever game for the Crusaders, I was for in a preseason game, 2007, all the all backs have been weren't there, but there's still like you know, experienced players in this crusaders team, Corey Flynn and all these other guys. And uh Denzi said to me the day before, that you're gonna captain Crusade, you know, like this preseason game is nothing, but you're gonna captain them and and so this is even earlier. This is just a preseason game, and it didn't mean anything. I just I just ran out first, didn't do anything else different. But you know, you look back and go, Oh, that's just priming. Like he's seen something, he's like, I'm just gonna prime this kid and nothing else, didn't tell me too much else about it. Just that was it, rest of the year, nothing around leadership and stuff. Yeah, I started getting brought into a couple of strategy meetings, and oh yeah. I was not talking, I just sit there and watch and learn, and then you grow a little bit. So he was pretty special in that uh way. Uh, and I've had all my coaches, so Steve Hanson, another one, probably one of the most intuitive coaches I've had and brilliant at what he does and what he can see. My first week in All Blacks camp 2008 uh in Scotland, Murray Fair, I was named to start that game, my debut game. Got pulled into his room like on a Monday or Tuesday night, uh, just to go have a one-on-one, as you do. Had my book out, like I was writing down my book, all these things I wanted to improve on, and all these things. Um I was a little bit scared. Steve's a bit of a intimidating character. So I walk into his room and he just said, Karen, shut your book. He's like, Don't. I'm not here, you know, you've got these skills. I'm here to help you become a hundred test orbit and be a great leader in this team. And that's his words to me. I hadn't played one test. And I get kind of what he's trying to, you know, put in me. And he but I also get he's not saying that to every single player that's coming into his reading yet for the first time. Um, and he was able to push the right buttons. And I walked out thinking, shut up, man, that's bullshit. Like, I haven't played. No one's played 100 tests for the Allbacks at this point. You know, I'm not a leader. What are you talking about? But they primed a little bit of something in the back of the mind, and that's there, right? And it kept me going a year later, 2009. Like I'm only not even probably 10 tests in, you know, I've started a few. And our line out's going pretty horrible. We lost to Sarah after three times in 2009. Bucky's and Victor show, like, those guys were on fire. Yeah. Uh, we had a few injuries and stuff. So we had it like in the locks, and then suddenly by the end of that trinations, they were like, See, as I read out, you gotta call the line outs now. And same thing. I didn't call lineouts before. Number eight, well, not even number eight, I'd number six, who playing number eight for the first time for the All Blacks. Hadn't played number eight for the Crusaders yet. Um, and calling the line outs, you know, this is kind of a foreign concept, you know, at that stage for a Lucy to be calling the lineouts, but I was analytical, I was able to look at things differently. You know, I was kind of mathematical brain, so that's kind of what you need in the lineup. And so that required me, though, to come up with the plan, come up with a calling system, and then present this to the boys on a Monday morning, which was, you know, intimidating for me. I was, you know, I was still pretty new. I was having to tell these guys in the team, this is what we're doing, this is how we're gonna do it. Uh yeah. And so that suddenly put me into this leader's kind of position, although no one knew outside the team. So there's no real external pressure. I could build this up on my own space. Suddenly I had the line out humming, and shit, I was getting confidence from this. Like I'm winning ball in the line out, you know, according to yourself as you do. And like, so I from that point on, I called the line outs for 10 years till I finished in 19. And that was the initial piece of confidence I needed today, like around leadership. And it was just a small part of the game, and I got it right, and I got help to get it right, and then yeah, and then I flowed from there. And I think suddenly you go, so it was it was more than just saying you're gonna be a hundred tests all but, hey, I'm gonna give you opportunities, and then and then you can feel confident in your own ability because as a player, you don't feel the same confidence in your own ability until you actually have done that. You know, very rarely all players have that. So as coaches, you guys, you've got to give them that confidence with your words, but you also have to you've got to keep giving them the opportunities to kind of finally feel it themselves. So I think I got that from a lot of my coaches, which is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

That's it's a cool phrase. I haven't heard of that before, that priming of confidence, the priming, give opportunities, small, tangible, and often.

How Trust Gets Damaged

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Yeah, it is, it is. I I feel that's the difference. I look at I do a little bit of work in the leadership space with a bunch of crusaders now, like in that kind of middle tier, of and you just see if coaches give these guys just a little bit of opportunities, they that there uplifts their performance. Suddenly they are more confident in their ability to perform, and performers leading in a small way, in this way, and I think the confidence, and that's all through my time, too, is the biggest thing that if you can find a way to and confidence, you know what is confidence, yeah. Like you can say you're confident every time, but you need something in behind that to really back your confidence up. So all that preparation, all that work that you've done as a player, I'm sure, has to come into it. But coaches can have a huge impact on on you, you know. And it could be built up through those small things, but it could also be f knocked back down pretty quickly, yeah, if if um something isn't said right or trust is lost in a certain way. Have you had examples of that where trust is lost from Yeah, I've seen it, like I've been not personally, but you see it, like you see it sometimes in reviews where coaches have gone too hard to pick on a certain player and you've they've been knocked, you know, like and I think that then it's it's so hard to come back. I've I've seen it in guys who um miss selection and you know weren't told the truth, you know, in some ways, you know, like yeah, I think being really honest in those conversations around selection, I think super important. If I look at a player's point of view, they want to be told straight up and down, hey, uh you're not selected because we've gone with this guy because we think he's better, or because you've got to work on this, this, this. You know, give us the truth. Don't just make something up. I think is the important piece there. So I've seen that happen. I'd certainly seen that, and you know, that's difficult in the squad, especially if you're a leader and you've tried got to try and manage that as well. That's it's happening around you. So um, yeah, there are probably a couple of things that from a coaching perspective uh can erode a bit of that kind of trust and bond.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

It's it's mate, I I'm loving that statement, that the ways in which you can find small opportunities, the preseason captaincy, the presentation, the calling an opportunity. It's cool. And then also, mate, it's it's fascinating on that other side of stuff, how you can do the opposite with what you just talked about there is like go too far, say that one word or do that one thing which does the opposite. It's such a balancing act, isn't it, for for leaders and coaches.

Remember Influence In Every Comment

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Yeah, it is. It's hard, and I've probably you know learnt a bit more about this too, since I've retired and and that you build up all this good stuff. But if you just that one time that you like for that new employee or that new player on your team, that one time that you just get it wrong, that that stays with them a lot longer, as as we are as humans, right? Like that little bit of negativity outdoes all the great positive stuff that we've done. So you have to just remember influence. And I talk to leaders now about influence, and it's like every conversation you have is is is big for that person, especially if you're you're a leader coach. So you have to just remember that you're on, you've got to be on in all those certain situations.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Remember influence. Every conversation you have is big for that person. That is a great statement to remember as coaches, because sometimes you think those little incidental conversations are just that, but they actually are landings, particularly because you're as a leader, you're being looked up to, which you sometimes don't appreciate, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Yeah, like that's the classic power. You know, it's power, it's how it is. And and you as a coach, you are being looked up to, as a leader, you're being looked up to. You know, if you think about the interaction, like just in a side, like I walk around in public, someone takes a photo of me, I have a little conversation with them, that person will hold on to that as if I'm their best mate for life, right? And then 10 years later, that person comes up to me and and starts talking to me as if I'm their mate. Because they remember me as being this person, like, and I've got absolutely no idea who that person is, right? So that's kind of that what I'm like, that's an extreme example, but as a coach, it is similar to that. You're having all these conversations, and for you, it's just little conversations, but for those players looking up to you, it's every time you say something, even if it's you know, just a little quick snide comment about when they drop a ball, it's a little bit of a laugh or it's a little bit of something it's having an impact on that person. And we just gotta remember that, I think. Um you know, yeah, understand, yeah, yeah, and and preface that, right? Like say yeah, preface what we're at to. Oh, we yeah. Just be able to understand influence, but also then go, okay, how how are we gonna coach? So if you're gonna be that type of coach, talk to the players about it. If you're gonna be this way, then talk to them before that as well.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Mate, that's an interesting one. You talked about that person on the street coming up to you and the and the mark in a positive way you left. And that minute conversation, and you could easily have flipped it the other way by just being dismissive, whatever power, no photos, whatever. And then that would stay them, and that would taint the next 10 years of their perspective, right? And they go, geez, he was a dick. I don't like it.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Yeah, yeah. And you have and it's quite strange to be thinking that way, but I think you kind of have to, you know. And that's and Yeah, after a few years of you know being in that position, um it's pretty special. You're pretty privileged to be in that position. Any person who's in that um has to be responsible and and understand that um how you behave and how you react in that in that moment is is gonna be with you and be with that interaction for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

I I think it's important to note too, your your example's an extreme one because of the success you've had. But every coach in a team has essentially got an elevated position too, right? Which people are looking up to. So it's a privilege to be in that position. So everyone that talks to you, you've got to have that mind, right? Like you can't just be dismiss someone say, not now, I'm busy.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. You know, I I I got kids now, 15, 13, and nine, like in the like even in at that level. At school level, club level. I I see like stand on sideline and I coach some of these um some of them, so you see what other coaches do. Yeah, I can see it. It intacts it intacts kids pretty pretty full on, right? And so just understanding that, hey, look, be really intentional with what you're gonna say. But yeah, don't just think that little funny comment about, oh, you dropped that ball again, you know, what happened there, is just an offhand comment that they can handle. Maybe some someone can, but a lot of people probably can't handle handle that, you know. So and it might just rock them for a bit. And so next time they're gonna tuck and and carry and not try and not try and you know, catch them past, you know, because you've you've taken away the element of risk, reward from them, you know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Well, have you had any examples when people have coaches you've had, or even yourself, when you have made those mistakes? Any advice around how good coaches and good leaders have come back from that? Because everyone makes mistakes, it's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

You got any examples which or suggestions to to help that process?

SPEAKER_01 40:31

I think Steve is pretty good in that space. Like he would sometimes go overboard in certain things because he cared. But I think the key though, he he'd created an environment that was learning, it was about learning. So we had to be able to take constructive criticism because we knew that was going to help the team. So that was already constructed. So the environment was set up for that. You had to take some feedback all the time. But when he went overboard, he would then go and find that that player and and put an arm around them and and you know, fix that and and try and fix it as quickly as you can. I think that's probably the key. You know, if you if you feel like you've maybe just overstepped the mark or maybe said something that's not quite on point, then I'll try and get to that person as quickly as you can. Yeah. Um, and maybe just to, you know, just to reiterate what you're trying to mean by what you said, you know.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Um yeah. I think Steve's a good example because he he he he openly admits he does go overboard at sometimes, but his ability to bounce back from it. I I've had those conversations where already he's come in, let's have a cup of tea, and he chats about it and he's vulnerable and he's open and he says where he what he was trying to do. And you walk away from that conversation almost invigored again. Yeah. He shares that little bit of vulnerability. Sorry, mate, I I was trying to do this and I didn't handle that well. And and you just go, you have so much more trust and respect from post that, even though the reason you were getting together was because you felt aggrieved. Um that's as big as that's one of his superpowers is his ability to flip you from one state of thinking and your mode of state to another, right? He's the master of that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Yeah, he is, yeah, yeah. Could be a psychologist day or something like that in the back up. Yeah, I had plenty of those, you know, in that time as captain, you know, like those cup of teas and uh even just like little chats with him constantly, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:25

Um Did he ever get into you? Did he ever shriek you up and say unacceptable, Karen?

SPEAKER_01 42:31

Yeah, yeah, he did, certainly in front of the team a couple of times from something on the field, which you know, you think as as a leader it could be it can be pretty harsh, but sometimes yeah, he'd he'd come up to me before a meeting and said, Look, Rita, I'm gonna I'm gonna hammer you here. You know, because I he wanted to shift, you know, just for I don't know what it I can't think of an example. Maybe I just walked, you know, to get back, kick chase or something, I don't know, five metres. Um I'm gonna hammer you because I want the team to shift. And he needs to get the team to shift. So it's not really about me. It's about telling the team that, hey, his coach can go after the skipper, so everyone else has to lift up their games. And he yeah, so he did that a few times and for a few different things, but also we had robust conversations ourselves. You know, as you said, he would go sometimes go overboard. And as a captain, I am protecting my players, so I had to sometimes go to him and and tell him that hey, mate, you need to go fix this, or you maybe went a bit too far that way. So, um, you know, they're hard conversations, but I think those are the ones that you've got to have in a in a good environment, right? And and as you said, he would initially maybe be a little bit not quite handle it as well, but genuinely would reflect and and and and learn from it and and agree or or whatever it was in the end and we'd both come out of it feeling great, you know. So yeah, it was good there.

SPEAKER_00 43:59

I think it's I think it's a master stroke from coaches when they do that sort of thing where they pull you like in this example with Steve, where he'd pull you up before the meeting and and explain to you why he's going to do something, and and then you're more on board to go, okay, I see what you're trying to do, I'm on board, I'll take a public humiliation execution. Uh but that that's a that's a good point for coaches and leaders of any sort, isn't it? And it comes back to that priming you talked about in another sort of way. He's priming you and giving you the rationale and and he's getting you on board. And he's saying he's almost showing a lot of trust in you that you can handle what I'm gonna give it. That's why I'm picking you to be this example here, isn't it? I think it it's a generic one which is really good for coaches to to grasp.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Yeah, it's it is it is it's and it's that understanding of people right. Yeah. So it's come back to that. Who can handle this? Who where's that impact gonna come from? Uh and knowing that you prime that that player. And so, from that example, for me, you know, that's like getting, you know, you know, put up in front of the team, it's embarrassing, and you're gonna people are gonna, you know, that's that's not nice. It's never nice, even if you know it's coming. So yeah, being that little bit aware of what's what what it is, then just get you in a better position um to handle it. Uh you know, but I think the key too is he's prime the individual, but he also primed the environment. You know, we constantly talked about being vulnerable to ask questions, to make mistakes. For a long time with Steve's coach, we're we're an environment that um would prefer the mistake to happen with you trying something than you being conservative and making no mistakes but not creating anything, right? So that was the environment. So he'd created that so it was able to have these errors, these mistakes, and we knew that errors and mistakes would possibly be. Positive in in essence. And if they weren't happening, then it'd be a bit more harsher if we weren't trying things. Yeah. So that environment part of it, yeah, set us up for those conversations.

Us Over Me And Leadership Learned

SPEAKER_00 46:05

I love it. Absolutely love it. You actually mentioned something in there, Karen, which uh I've I've heard you talk about before, which is a big one. You you talked about just then it's not about you in terms of when you're leading teams. And I know previously in the past you've talked about um when you got into captaincy, you understood that it's not about you anymore, it's about the team, and that's where your focus has to go. Us over me, essentially. Is that a shift that when you get into these leadership roles that you have to make? Because as a player, if you're just a player, you're generally focusing on that. But when you're stepping into leadership and and coaching roles, it goes away from you, and now it becomes this wider piece around the team, and your ego has to take a backseat. Is that something you've experienced in your captaincy and leadership journey?

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Yeah, I have. I think it genuinely makes you a better performer as a player, as a coach, if you do go wider, you get I think it's like a silo where you get stuck in and you're trying to perform your role as best you can, right? And and you do everything you can to now this and and you'd be great at it. But if you widen your vision and and horizon to leadership or to big picture stuff or you know, a small part of the game, like if you give these guys a little bit extra responsibility by widening them, bringing responsibility to them, it actually grows this this piece here. That's their core role that they need in now. So I think it's intertwined, it's not one or the other, it's it's the performance will grow from having a little bit extra responsibility. So leadership is 100%, you've got to be able to look outside of you. It does not stop you from having to be the best player in the field, but you have you know, it's leading people. That's what it is, leading. So you know, you can't lead without finding ways to connect with those people, and a lot of that comes through seeing what's happening, being able to voice your opinions, create great language and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

And and mate, it sort of goes back to this sort of leading people. Now, that you do this as a this is the your next venture is leading and growing young leaders. Mate, what when you're doing doing your um your sessions, what are some of the the sticking points you see with young people coming through? And what what would be your advice to coaches and how they can help shape and grow these young young leaders coming through?

SPEAKER_01 48:33

Where do they yeah? So the Crusaros, I work with some there, and I also work in businesses. So I walk in work in all different walks of life, actually. So not just young, but the key thing in rugby that I see and the guys that I I do my work with, the same, it's exactly the same thing as when I think when I first came in was how can you give them the confidence to feel like they can contribute? How can they, you know, be themselves to the best of their ability? Because you know when they're gonna be that person, they're gonna perform to their best, they're gonna give more of themselves, they're gonna lead in a better way, giving them confidence. And initially, when I do talk to these guys, it's like, okay, um, who are you? And who, you know, who who genuinely are you and and what do you really stand for? And it's pretty cool. And I do this at rugby, I do this in business. You get a great understanding of exactly who you are and what you stand for, then you can give of yourself, you'll make the decisions based off the right things, and that's where I think the the key is to start in in all those conversations. But yeah, it's it's definitely it's still the same problems, and maybe even more now that you know kids now they don't well, especially in the rugby world, I see, and what I maybe feel is that doesn't want to be identity of rugby, they want to have all these other things. Um, so it's just making sure that, hey, look, when you're in the environment, give your best that you can give and keep building them up and giving them great opportunities.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Yeah, I love it. What do you think people would look what what what is you, mate? Who are you, Karen, in in that same context? Do you have a bit of an outline of who you are and how's that is it different does it differ a lot from the guy that started up at at school?

SPEAKER_01 50:19

Yeah, I'm I I definitely different person. Like I think I'm underlying beliefs and values are in some ways similar, they're probably etched out. Like I was very respectful, Kurt. I I think that kind of carried with me in terms of of authority, but also respected the occasion. So um, you know, the opportunities to represent my country. I'm gonna I'm not gonna let this place down. Uh you know, like um and all those things that you're talking about. So that was probably there from an early age and came through like a work ethic started quite early in me too, through a bit of love of sport and things, my parents and and some coaches early on. So I I became pretty aware that you know, like to make it from Roseville College, I it was down to me, it wasn't down to anyone else. So the accountability piece I I felt I carried pretty strongly, and that probably is still there and it's different now. So it's maybe not the accountability of working hard, it's maybe accountability of uh looking after my family and and being present with my kids is probably where it's driving me now. But yes, I hope that uh yeah, I'm pretty I think who you are as a person is who you are, and and that's the same as on the field as a leader off it. I hope they don't change too much, but as a leader, you do have to present a certain persona to and that's based off your person in front of you. It's like in rugby. The opposition gives you tells you what you should be doing. Your people tell you what you should be doing as a leader. Uh so you can't just be the one size fits all of your people are different in certain aspects of your life. So you shouldn't change, but you should be able to adapt how you present. Love that I don't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

Yeah, mate, it does. It doesn't. I love that phrase. Your people tell you what sort of leadership you leadership leader you should be.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

And that reference- and it's not going away from being your authentically your authentic self, is what I said right at the start. So you have to know who you are, but coaching you know, under aids compared to coaching a cults team or a professional team, you know, you change. And so that's that's what I mean by that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:32

That phrase you said, your lessons you have lived as making you a better father to your kids. That's that's awesome. Love that. Now, Karen, the the question we like to sum up with at the end here is a really interesting one. And it's this what's one belief you hold about sort of leadership and culture that you agree with that you reckon some of your peers would disagree with? Um I don't like that little groan to start off with.

SPEAKER_01 52:55

Some of my my peers might well the leadership, you said it right starting. I think not maybe everyone agrees is that leadership is learned. It's a it's a skill that you can you can improve on and learn. I genuinely believe that that that that that can happen, and maybe society, maybe sm some of my peers would agree with that, is that because we give leadership roles to the most extroverted person, or I think I seen read some stats the other day that in terms of like CEOs or big, you know, leaders in companies, all these extroverted people who can get up in front of people and speak loud and so they get given these opportunities. Um and perhaps they're the best, but perhaps there's some other leaders that we're missing because we're not giving them the opportunities or we're not allowing them to be heard. And so they don't get the chance to to practice some skills that they do need as a leader to grow, which maybe the extroverted people can show pretty comfortably without necessarily having the proper leadership within them. So yeah, it's it's a it's a learned skill and it's a belief of finding ways to let it shine, I think is the important piece.

Where To Connect And Key Takeaways

SPEAKER_00 54:09

Karen, that's awesome, man. And and and it's it's super cool that you're the lived example of that. Like it's openly admitting today that you weren't a a natural leader coming through and you've gone on to captain uh some of the greatest teams in the world, in in sporting world with with the all blacks and the crusaders. And I I think you're the example that you can learn this stuff. And and I'll just I'll preface now like if if people do want to um learn from you, mate, I think your examples are the best because they're live, they're not just the theory. So if you do want to connect with Karen, I I would suggest Karen Reed.co.nz or jump on LinkedIn, connect with you, right? Because this is what you do now. This is your space, this is your new place where you're growing people.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

Yeah, it's awesome, mate, right? Oh, I'm loving it. So, like all this stuff, right? Like it's it can translate across anywhere rugby, different sports, into business, which is great. And um, yeah, you get jump on that website, and I've just created an online course that encompasses all this work that I've learned out of my career. It's awesome. Like it's based on like self-leadership, teamwork, and culture. And I look, it's uh it's an awesome place to be. I think what you're doing here, it's shining the light on on where people can get better and and all of that mindset of growth, and like I feel like I'll continually get better as a leader because that's who I am. I uh every day I'm I'm reading something, I'm listening, um, you know, growing and so learning from mistakes, whatever it is, I'm I'm getting better. So that's kind of the ethos, I guess, of where we start there.

SPEAKER_00 55:31

Yeah, and I love it. I think that high performance sport of which you were a champion of is translatable. All those lessons, leadership lessons, are transferable to any environment, businesses, because it's an extreme version of leadership. You get put under so much turmoil, both physical, mental, emotional, operating a high performing team. It's relevant for whatever team you are operating in, right?

SPEAKER_01 55:52

Yep, 100%, mate. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 55:54

Karen, what an absolute pleasure to have on the Coach and Culture podcast today. If I may, I'd like to just sum up my my three takeaways from leadership and coaching that I've picked up from you today. They are these. Number one, create the other space. You talked about vulnerability and connection first. It's not just an idle statement. Where it comes into play is down the line, you're gonna have to have those conversations. And if you've earned the right to have really deep and honest ones, you're gonna find the words you do say lay a deeper trench in people. If you've done the work before through vulnerability and connection, to actually build some rapport and trust. And I love that. Number two, you talked about this concept of priming, about giving people confidence and not just in the words you say, but those small, often intangible opportunities where you can give them a bit of a big tick in their confidence to say that you trust them. And you and you talked about yourself about captaincy in a game, which probably it didn't matter, but just that that opportunity for a coach to give someone leadership goes a million miles in helping them build confidence. And number three is this phrase you said that remember influence. Every conversation you have is big for that person, so be really intentional about what you say. It's a privilege being in that position of a leadership or a coach. So just remember that any offhand comments can do a negative impact. Likewise, those small little upswing comments can lay awesome memories and create something really special in something. Your power as a coach and a leader to have influence is not just the big stuff, it's those small little things as well.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

Awesome. Thanks so much, Ben. Yeah, loved it.