Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
One Meeting Changed Everything | Geordan Murphy
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Some teams win because they have better players. Leicester Tigers, at their best, won because they had a culture that could survive anything, including brutal training, relentless internal competition, and the pressure of living up to an identity everyone could see from the stands.
We sit down with Jordan Murphy, Leicester player, captain, coach, and senior leader across 23 years at the club. Jordan tells the story of arriving from Ireland on what was supposed to be a three week trial, then being thrown straight into first team training with Lions and internationals. We dig into what made that era so formidable: standards that never blinked, competitiveness that stayed on the field, and the idea that you can earn your place by being different, not just bigger. Jordan also shares how he used creativity, skill work, and rugby IQ as his edge in a world that worshiped strength.
From there we get into the nuts and bolts of coaching culture and leadership: why “the behaviors you accept” is the real definition of culture, how recruitment decisions either protect the environment or slowly poison it, and why a clear vision of how you play is inseparable from identity. Jordan opens up about the hardest stretch of his career, taking over under fire, navigating the pandemic, feeling the loneliness of head coaching, and the sting of being let go after two decades with little closure. If you lead people, this conversation will make you think about performance, endings, and what it takes to reach out before the pressure cooker changes who you are.
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Chickens And The Real Geordie
SPEAKER_01I was at the right place at the right time. My point of difference wasn't being physical. My point of difference was being creative. I do have some amazing chickens at the moment. I think the best animal I've ever had, very fond of my chickens. You know, I walk around the garden, they follow me around, good people make good teammates, and make a good culture. And then it's just the behaviours that are kind of driven and accepted. The coach who said we said, like, look, this is a massive long shot. Most likely you'll just go and you'll have three weeks of fun in the summer to see them and see what it's like and see what the level is like. But it was straight into training with the first team at Leicester. It felt like hell. It felt like hell for me, you know, a club that I'd loved and I'd been at for 20 odd years. Me and the club kind of we didn't really, we we didn't really speak then for a few years. All the things that you that you get wrong, you just kind of get your head into the pressure cooker and you become this version that isn't recognizable to yourself. It was a tough way to go. You very rarely get to write the the last chapter of your own book.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been hearing of loving the style of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Jordan Murphy. Geordie Murphy was at the Leicester Tigers as a player from 1997 to 2013. 16 years. Almost straight out of school. He won eight premierships, lost six finals, two European titles, and a fair few Anglo-Wels trophies too. I would hate to build his trophy cabinet. He coached the team from 2013 to 2027 years, including the pandemic period. 23 years of the list of titles in total, an absolute icon of the club, and a huge part of its glory years. You will not find a better man. There's the personification of the phrase top man. And Liz talks and breeds culture. Geordie Murphy, player, captain, coach, and DOR. Not many people have the con have covered such a broad spectrum of roles at a professional club. Geordie, welcome. What a pleasure it is to have you on the Coaching Culture Podcast.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, mate. I'm absolutely honored to be on here. It's good just to catch up with you most of the time, mate. I uh uh last time was at the airport in uh in Sydney, wasn't it, as I as I was flying back from the Lions and you were like, mate, I'm coming, I'm coming to the airport. And you did, full credit to you. So uh for me to jump on a call with you is an honor and a pleasure. So thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00And these days, mate, it's actually a pleasure to change you because you're a quasi-life farmer. We were just talking about off-air.
SPEAKER_01Honestly, a very poor farmer. I'm living on a small farm, but most of the animals I've had have uh uh been sold on and shipped on because I'm terrible. My wife is my my wife is more into it than I am, but I do have some amazing chickens at the minute. I think the best animal I've ever had, very fond of my chickens. You know, I walk around the garden, they follow me around. They'll come to a whistle now as well. So they're uh they're smart, they're they're good little girls. So I uh yeah, chickens, that's that's me.
SPEAKER_00Your chickens come to you when you whistle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Is that a whistle with a whistle?
SPEAKER_01Or is that no, no, no, that's just uh that's just a a little affectionate toot and they uh they they come running, so I um they think they think they're getting fed. But I um yeah, that's they're they're good girls.
SPEAKER_00This is the secret lives of professional rugby
Welcome And A Leicester Legacy
SPEAKER_00coaches.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no. If if there's anything that's getting deleted, it's that. Take it out.
SPEAKER_00No way, mate. That's we'll we'll we've deleted all the other bits, but uh the chickens stay in. They're they're firmly in this podcast. Mate, well what it it is a pleasure to have you, mate. You're an absolute icon of the club. Firstly, mate, before we start with the culture question, you came pretty much it was an unusual decision so long ago to come to the UK from Ireland. What what what made you do it, mate? That's a big jump to do as a young man, almost straight out of school.
SPEAKER_01Do you know it it was it was a strange one and it was a very, very different era, like 1997, the end of the 90s. The game had only gone professional, it's sort of 95-96. I'd actually been to school in New Zealand where I kind of almost learned to play rugby. I went to Oakland Grammar for sort of five months in 1995, and that was probably the making of me, really, because before then I'd played a lot of Gaelic football. I knew how to kick and I knew how to catch, and I had some sort of base-level rugby skills, but but I don't think I had a proper appreciation of how rugby should be played or a real love of rugby. I just like sports. Coming back from there in '96, you know, my playing for my school was was amazing. We kind of did quite well, played in in some really big competitions, lost in the in the schools cup final in in Leinster to a really strong Black Rock side. And kind of absolutely loved rugby, but didn't get selected for any representative teams. Was kind of one of those players that was just going to play local rugby for your local club team in NASA. And randomly, as anything, Leicester were training in Limerick at the time. I went to watch them train with with the coach that sent me to New Zealand and and uh he sort of spoke to Bob Dwyer, who was obviously a World Cup winning coach who was coaching on the team, and he sort of agreed to take me on a three-week trial. So I came across just on the on the premise of going to have a look at what Leicester was like.
The Three Week Trial That Stuck
SPEAKER_01The coach who sent me said, like, look, this is a massive long shot. Most likely you'll just go and you'll have three weeks of of fun in the summer, and you'll get to train with some pro players, and you might get to see them and see what it's like and see what the level is like. But you know, you you'll be better for it after three weeks. And I came over and it was after the Lions tour '97, so I was expecting to be sort of in in an under-18s or an under-19s side, but it was straight into training with the first team at Leicester. So you're training with your heroes, your Martin Johnson's, Neil Bax, you know, guys who've just come off the the 97 Lions, Eric Miller, Leicester at the time were a powerhouse. They had, you know, kind of I think seven guys on that tour, and and they had probably 20 internationals in in in the squad, in their first team squad from every country across the world. Uh so to be able to train for three weeks was amazing. And and I think I I probably acquitted myself half decently because that they offered me a three-year contract, and that was it was effectively a student contract which enabled me to go to uni and kind of pay some bills or pay half my bills. And it just really went from there. It was it kind of it took off. You know, Bob Dwyer left later that season, and Dean Richards took back over in charge. And that first season we weren't successful. Newcastle won the league, but then we went on a run. We won four premierships back to back and two European Cups in 2001 and 2002, and I kind of managed to force my way into the team. And I was a younger player, it was kind of the culture at Leicester then was very, very different. It was it was kind of you know, you you had to you had to prove yourself before you got to speak. It was it was a very old school, you know, kind of you you needed to show how tough you were, you needed to show to the team. Um, you know, they wouldn't have taken lightly to anyone coming in with an opinion and on the first week of work, and maybe we could do this better. That wasn't that wasn't the way it was. It was a very fixed, very hard-nosed, you know, we're gonna knock lumps out of each other in training, we're gonna train harder in the week because you know it's the old train train hard, fight easy type A boxing analogy. And it was certainly the case, you know, it was it was it was dog eat dog, you know. I would say Tuesday, Wednesdays were were were as tough as any game that I've ever been involved in. You know, you're kind of going being pushed until there was bloodshed and in in order to to to prove that you were ready, and it was a very, very you know, it was a it was it was a tough, tough place.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, mate, and I I think I think Leicester's stats was like 50% more injuries at training than any other club in the premiership. I think it was something I read now, didn't I?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, look, I I think they hid that from me quite quite well. But but I I can but I can remember I can remember being at 19 years of age and being in the second team and training against international players, and like you can I can remember doing good things, you know, catching a ball, making a line break, going through, making an off-wood, scoring a try in training and being put into the first team. So it was almost like having a target put on your back, you know, you you you took an international player's spot. That might have been Austin Healy, that might have been Will Greenwood, that would have been, you know, might have been Tim Simpson or Mikey Horak or you know, all these international players that you they would straight away on a Tuesday morning find themselves fighting for their spot. So, you know, you're in the second team, you know, you've been a superstar player, you might have been an alliance tour, you might be an international player, but this 19-year-old Irish kid has just taken your spot. So straight away you're you're fighting for survival in training. You know, you you know that if you get anywhere near it, you're you're gonna get whacked. You know that they're gonna be fighting for their spot back. So that competition was really, really strong. And and how I think I guess how we managed that competition was was probably a good thing in that it was always left on the field, it was very rarely brought off the field. So, you know, you go at it toe for toe, but then when you were selected or not selected on on a Saturday, it was almost you were you were you were happy because you prepared the team the best you could.
SPEAKER_00And there's a shifting uh feel in society these days where competition isn't driven as hard as it was back at those days, right? Like there would be there would be punch-ups, like football punch-ups multiple at a training on a Tuesday or Thursday or Leicester. And in the in the lunchroom afterwards, you wouldn't know there was any altercations whatsoever. Those two fellas would be sitting there having dinner together or lunch together. Not a problem in the world, it was just what was done. Competition at that level of intensity was a norm.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and that was exactly it, you know. As an I I very rarely remember anyone kind of leaving the training ground on bad terms, although, you know, there would have been bloodsheds, there would have been doctors in, there were stitches, there was, you know, kind of full-on fist fights, as you said. So it it was and I and I think about the the people that we had, you know, they had different personalities, but one thing that they all were was hugely, hugely competitive. And and I guess that was kind of one of the things that made us successful, and that, you know, we were we were desperate to be successful. And, you know, people talk to me all the time about you know different personalities and you know, does everyone have to like each other in a team and does everyone have to be no, we we didn't all we didn't know. I think the the fact that Leicester is kind of more a remote club and and the players spent a lot of time off the field together, I think, naturally built towards kind of a tighter knit unit and tighter knit teams. But we certainly had Mavericks in the team, we certainly had people who kind of maybe were a little bit different, who kind of didn't didn't sort of conform to to the way things are. But the fact that they were so competitive, you knew how good they were, you knew how much they would show up on a on a on a Saturday in a game, that made them accept it much more accepted.
SPEAKER_00Were you competitive? Or or or did that did it bring it out in you? The skinny, the skinny orange kid that came over straight from school.
SPEAKER_01I'll I'll have a psychometric profile. I I'm my profile, I I show up, I I show up really high competitively. I've I'm qualified in a thing called Lumina. It tests you in three spaces. It tests you in sort of underlying everyday and overextended. So my my underlying, my natural self, I'm really competitive. I'm top top couple of percent of of uh being competitive. And then my everyday I show up at work dialing it down. So I've I've learned to to to know that that it's not attractive to compete the whole time. And I and I know how much it bugs me, and it always has, you know, as a kid playing a board game, when I'm when I get there, I get into a zone and it's not as enjoyable as it should be. So kind of I have to dial it down. I have to kind of relax and go, okay, this is just a board game, this is this is you know, this isn't important. So I naturally dial it down. But then when I'm under pressure and I'm I'm stressed, it goes through the roof, it goes back up into the top one percent. So so kind of naturally I think I I sit I'm I'm quite competitive. I I've I've had to dial it down. I I I don't like to compete because I think it's quite unattractive. Um, I've fallen out with friends on occasions over over board games and silly things in in the evening. So I uh yeah, that's kind of who I am naturally.
SPEAKER_00And so back in your youth when someone said, I bet you can't jug scale this and then do four somersaults through the red rag to a bull.
SPEAKER_01Red rag to a bull, yeah, of course I can. No, no, it's it's uh yeah, yeah. Yeah, I get and I guess look that's that's probably s one of the reasons like you know when when when I played, when I was given the opportunity to play, I think, you know, as a youngster I
Train Hard Fight Easy Culture
SPEAKER_01was very small, I was very skinny, and everyone said, Oh, yeah, there's no way you can you can compete, there's no way you can you can play at that level, you can't be a professional player. And it was almost a little chip that I think was was was on my shoulder and a kind of almost a point that I wanted to prove that I would be able to get it done. And and you know, for me, I wasn't the strongest of player, as you well know. You know, I'd go in the gym and we'd look at the board in Leicester and we'd have that board that said, you know, this is you know, bronze level, silver level, gold level, then this is world class and this is tigers level. And it was like, you know, if you're not benching 250 kilos and squatting 500, you you know, you you're not anywhere near Tigers level, and I was nowhere near that. I'm kind of going, wow, I'm I'm back in back in bronze place. So I had to find a way to to to make it work for me. So I kind of had to be a little bit different, I had to be a little bit more creative, but I had to spend a lot of time on the field working on my skills in order to to make sure that that was kind of my point of difference.
SPEAKER_00I love that, mate. Like that the the fact that you had that little chip on the shoulder and you're acknowledged and you're aware of it, and then you didn't just let it sit, you actually were active around it, and you went out and actively was different and creative around trying to work around those perceived, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, look no for for me, and I guess maybe I was at the right place at the right time. You know, we had a really big pack and we had some really physical bodies and around it, and and you know, my my point of difference wasn't being, you know, physical, my point of difference was being creative. I was the guy that was going to do something a little bit different, and and sort of all the skill set areas was that was kind of what I kind of tried to work on, and and being sort of knowledgeable in around the game as well. You know, we were very lucky we had some fantastic coaches that came in and and really knowledgeable players to learn from and and to listen to and and to try and get better on the back of. And you know, when I think about, you know, I was chatting to someone the other day about players that I played with, and it's just ridiculous, you know, thinking like Joel Stransky and Fritz van Heerden from you know the World Cup, they you know, they were there, you know, you're talking about the sort of the stock standard Fijian name the Fijians with Sally Sarevi and Marika Vunimbaka, you know, that this was just at the start of my career, and and kind of some of the guys that that kind of came through the club, you know, big Owen Finnegan, and we're talking about Dan Lyle. I mean, and just guys who, as a young player, would would give you great things. Dave Lockheed, the Canadian international who played '95 World Cup, was so good to me. And just kind of as a young player, just feeding you, feeding you, feeding you information and you know, helping you train to get better, I was very, very lucky in that there was great players, great foreign players. And I think that was Lester's really, really strong suit. And when I look at teams that do well in the premiership now, across the board, they all have the same model. They bring through young players, they bring through local players who really care and are passionate, and they sign great overseas players who kind of bring something to the party. And I think that was probably Lester's strength back in the day. They would bring in players who wanted to contribute, and and those guys all did that.
SPEAKER_00Isn't it such a big thing for recruitment? Is it's not just the the sheer talent of the the the big dogs coming in, but it's also what they do just like what you said, they f help feed you. Metaphorically speaking, the young guy that's come in there that's hungry to learn and to eat, and you've got these guys that have just got the ability to show you how to do it by their performance, but also take you under their wing on all those other aspects too. There's such a nice balance for a coach and a selector to get right, you're right.
SPEAKER_01Oh, massively. Look, and again, the the the fact that I was at Leicester for so long, I saw that on numerous occasions. I saw that being a cyclical thing, like you know, we'd signed some players, and you know, they didn't always get the the recruitment process right, you know. So s we signed Leicester signed some world-class players, world-class players who just didn't fit because you know they just there was just something different, there was just something about there that that that that was wrong, and they probably didn't they didn't want to contribute to the sort of the longevity of the team and there was maybe a little bit of selfishness in some of those players, but you know, on on the whole it was a uh it was a successful period.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and just the way you talked about before the trainings, like that's not for everybody, it's full-on Tuesday, Monday, Tuesday, Thursday sessions where there's it's horrible sometimes. It's a cold day, you know this is gonna be more physical than any sort of game. There's gonna be a fist fight, you might get your head taken off somewhere along the line if you're in the starting lineup. Uh you had to just suck it up and do it.
SPEAKER_01And that's it. And look, and that's the competitiveness, that's a little bit of the grit, that's a little bit of the determination to go, you know what, actually I really want this. I always found it funny. I think people kind of never really got their head around what rugby looked like back in the day because as an amateur era it was a Tuesday night, Thursday morning and and a and a lovely little runaround on a on a Saturday, and then people say, Oh, you know, it must be fantastic to be a professional player. And I was kind of going, yeah, come down on a Tuesday or Wednesday morning and and see what that looks like when there's you know, when you're flying into each other alive, you know, full contact activities, and and they it's minus three and you can't feel your hands, and you know, you're trying to do handling outside and you've got to do it because that's what's being done, and you want to train harder than the opposition because you don't want them to steal a yard on you. It's a uh yeah, it was always interesting. There's always a bit of a smile, a rice smile on your face when you're going, yeah, it's yeah, just just we we just pitch up on a on a Saturday and play.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I certainly take I took more pain colours on the on the Monday, Tuesday, Thursdays than I did for just to bar up for those sessions.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It was it was I you know, you you knew you knew it was coming as well, and particularly in Leicester when you know you didn't have a great performance or when you know there was big games coming up, you knew that it was it was going to be sort of pretty intense, and that was the ones where you know you I I I always uh it was funny we did a uh a big cycle recently and I was I was almost reminded of being in the changing room because you know we go to stages where we had some excellent sort of guides who were taking us through this bike ride for it was for Lewis for MND and they um you know they they'd say to us before, oh you know, guys were coming out after lunch, we've got to go, we've got a mile uphill coming up. It's a really nasty, you know, really nasty climb. And most of the guys who kind of were were in the same boat would kind of just go quiet. And and some of the people who were you know really well prepared are you know they'd be trying to talk to you on this hill, but the guys who'd kind of been in that environment before would just go almost the focus would come in, you know, okay, right, head down to get through the the really tough bits. And then it almost reminded me about being in those change rooms before those big sessions that you know if it was a Monday or a Friday or a Thursday, the guys are joking and laughing, and you know, there's lots of energy in the change room. But on a Tuesday or Wednesday, when you know there's a contact session, everyone's you know, mouth guards are going in, boots are being tied, extra, you know, a bit of precision where your laces and you're you know you're getting yourself ready to go, but there's not the same level of energy or chat in the room because it's it's a uh you know you're gonna have to fly into each other.
SPEAKER_00Well, I used to say this phrase around it, mate. Like in most clubs, when you come to training, you talk about switching on. Got to switch on, switch on to the session. I found myself saying, Come on, Ben, you've got to switch off. Just switch off, just switch the brain off here. Just don't think too much, just head down, get do this. And and just what I used to that's what I used to feed to the young guys that I was around. Just just find the switch off switch and flick it.
SPEAKER_01Muscle memory. Muscle memory. I like that. That's the there's something in that as well, Jeremy. If you can do it when you're switched off, then when you switched on, how much better are you gonna be?
SPEAKER_00Well that's that's correct, mate. I I'm sure that wouldn't be a recommendation in any modern coaching manual. But Leicester certainly did something back in those days,
Winning Without Being The Strongest
SPEAKER_00like golden period of Leicester rugby, where they were pretty much won everything. Where it was old school, it was very different. It it wouldn't meet health and safety or any sort of coach development guideline models, would it? It's it was really something different.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was. And again, look, as I said, it was a very different era. You know, the game was probably a very different place, but as you say, you know, the injury levels and the injury rates at training were were high, and we ran a we ran a big squad and we were kind of we had fantastic players. You know, I I think some of the strength in in in in Leicester back then what was probably the strength in the in the guys at the start of the year when you put the names down and the the perceived second team, that was where the strength of Leicester was because they were always the guys that kind of ended up winning the league for you. And I and I think sometimes that's you know not as not as talked about in in sort of the modern game, but certainly in the premiership, which was a grind, a little bit less so now that they're down to less games, but you know, when you had the 12 teams there, it was always you know your replacement tight head, your replacement 10, your replacement nine. These are the guys who are going to come in and gonna potentially be winning the trophies for you at the back end of the year because that's how important they are, and unless they're always had, you know, real strength and depth in those positions.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and just a really interesting one. I I always enjoyed how they almost had a wet weather team too. You had you had legends that were good in the wet, the Julian Whites and and some of the older boys at the back end of career who were outstanding CP operators, and they play a lot of games over those winter months too, right?
SPEAKER_01And again, and again, you look at you look at the rugby IQ in those Leicester teams, you look across it now and the amount of guys who've gone into coaching who you know who who know the game really, really well, who can sit with you and have a chat with you know about rugby. There was a lot of real knowledge in around the game. I'm I'm looking at that team, you're looking at Graham Roundtree, who's coaching in Japan, Richard Cockrell, who's been you know coaching across the world, you're looking at Darren Garfield, who didn't go into coaching, coached for a bit at rugby afterwards, went on to be a tubular technician, and uh and and you know, kind of thought there's no point in being in that game, I'm making too much money. Martin Johnson coached England, Ben Kay does all of the TV over here. You're looking at Neil Bach, who coached at rugby, uh, Martin Corrie's gone into a b into the business world. Paul Gustard was at the team, he was you know he's at Stad France now. You got Austin Healy who's a who's a as a TV pundit. You know, a lot of those guys went into coaching. Yeah, we had Pat Howard, who's obviously gone on great things, Darrell Gibson, yourself. Sam Vesti was was one of those guys who's doing amazingly now at Northampton. We had so much rugby IQ, I think, that we knew how to win games in the conditions. So it wasn't just about you know a wet weather team, a dry weather team. It was managing every game to where it needs to be managed. We would talk about rugby, we would watch rugby, and we were very tight-knit group, so we were kind of almost fed off each other. We we knew that whoever was on the field, we knew how to get the the game the the job done. You know, the the coaching at Leicester, I think, with with that amount of rugby IQ in in the changing room must have been must have been probably easy, really. You know, you line 'em up, make sure you're physically right, make sure you're mentally right, and and then, you know, it's it's a tactically we we were pretty much on it.
SPEAKER_00I love that mate, the rugby IQ. Do you think that uh the people shape that IQ or or or the the culture helps shape that does a group does a group improved the IQ? Or does the IQ improve the group?
SPEAKER_01Look, I I think it's probably both. The big thing that I ask players now is, do you love the game? Do you love the game? Because because I loved the game. And I think people who like who I know who went into coaching absolutely loved the game. You know, as in I always ask players, you know, if there's a game, how many games would you watch in a weekend if you were allowed? And it's interesting to hear some people go, oh you know, because you can watch 20 games on a weekend here now. And a lot of people will go, oh, I'm I might watch one or two. You know, some people go, Oh, I could watch them all day every day. And I was like, Yeah, that that would be amazing. I could remember as a kid, you know, finding one game on the weekend that you could watch was amazing, and watching, you know, games, it was just brilliant to you know, I would watch every game if I possibly could. And now a young family probably curtails my ability to do that. And my wife tells me it's decidedly unattractive to sit and watch three games in a row. To watch three games in a row or four games in a row is is is is a horrible thing. But I um but but but I would if I could. And I think it's great. So I think I see I've I've seen over the course some some players don't don't love it, they do it because it's a job, and that's probably the the difference from back then, whereas I think we were all kind of very keen to be better.
SPEAKER_00That's a really interesting that's that that's what a lot of people say professionalism of a sport does is it creates a job out of it, and for some people that is a bit motivator, like the financial side. But I think you're right, mate. If if if someone like yourself has that inherent drive, that love they're gonna go that little bit further, they're gonna do give those little bits and like yourself watching multiple games at a weekend is just phenomenal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I love and I think that's a it's a strong thing. I think you people say it in any walk of life, isn't it? If you can love your it doesn't it's not a job, is it? And like the reality of the situation for me, looking back on it, was I was very lucky to be involved in 16 years of professional rugby as a player at Leicester. But I if I didn't get that opportunity, I still I still would have played. I still probably would have played for 16 years just for a different team from from from a local team, and it would have been slightly different, but I would have been going out on a on a on a Tuesday and a Thursday and a Saturday or a Sunday and playing every night. So it was, you know, I I got to I got to get paid for something that I love doing.
SPEAKER_00In which case, Mate, you would uh wouldn't have been a quasi-farmer, you would have been a real farmer back in those days.
SPEAKER_01Potentially, potentially. I probably would have learned a little bit more about the livestock and kept more of them alive.
SPEAKER_00Well, I love it, mate. Hey, we've skipped over the first question of this podcast, mate, but I'd like you you to define culture for me from you and your experience, mate. Do you have a definition of it? And how and how does it share with your experience?
SPEAKER_01For me, the the dictionary definition is is you know, is what it is. I think it's just the behaviours and the the behaviours that you accept and then the behaviours that sort of your people have. Everything is all about people, the people that are in the environment. And that's the that that's you know, I've been lucky to speak to different companies, different teams, and it's just about the right bodies in the room, good people make good teammates and make a good culture. Um, and then it's just the behaviours that that are kind of driven and accepted on the on the on the back of that. You know, I look at when every time Leicester was successful, we the culture was was spot on, right? It was fantastic, and you know, we we were tight in a group, trusted each other, and we worked really, really hard for each other and and we were successful. And and that went through you know almost a cyclical stage after that really successful period to 2002, 2003. You know, we lost some senior players, we we we had 2003, 2004 were the first two years where we weren't in finals, and then we kind of turned it a little bit and went back at it five five to through to thirteen. We were in every final, and that was because you know there were great people who were driving it, driving the standards, driving the behaviours. And and and then, you know, I I was I was again around long enough to sort of see that erode a little bit. And every time you know you lose some leadership, you lose some senior players, you l lose the players who are driving the standards. There's a there's almost a little bit of a setback and and kind of uh it it falls off. And I think
Recruitment That Builds Or Breaks Culture
SPEAKER_01you know, 2014-15, Leicester were in semi-finals, and then it kind of fell off the cliff a little bit in around the the the culture, so the culture erode. So I guess it's all about people and the behaviours that they you know you accept.
SPEAKER_00What's what what were some of the things which happened, mate, which which that erosion? You obviously lost some leaders. Did would did no one step up into that role or I think it was difficult.
SPEAKER_01I think recruitment is a is a big thing. I think you know, sort of recruitment in the in those in those areas. I I think yeah, the you know, there wasn't the same standard of leadership at times. I think recruitment was was was a big thing in around how we you know how that how we recruited, and again, the vision of how we wanted to play was was kind of a little bit cloudy as well, in that you know, there was probably quite a few coach changes. Coaches came in, amazing coaches, but just kind of probably weren't backed the ability. They came in with sort of one vision of how we wanted to play, and the club didn't really back that, and it was kind of a little bit kind of it became pretty much a toxic environment pretty quickly, you know. I think I think you know the board didn't back the coaches, the coaches didn't stay, a new coach would come in. And and from my experience of of that, you know, being a coach at a at a club, you know, it's gonna take you because of the way contracts work in rugby, it's gonna take you two years to get the players that you want or the people that you want minimum of two years. Some players are on three, four-year contracts, and they're they're they're not good for the team environment. So it's gonna take you a period of time to get it right, to get the right people into the room, to get the right attitudes in the room, and then I think you can be successful again.
SPEAKER_00Isn't isn't it a really good point that the vision of how you play has the potential to just sabotage a place if everyone's not on board? And I think Leicester's a really good example because in its glory is you could everybody watching the game could see how Leicester plays. It was very this is Leicester. I certainly knew coming in. There was a huge sign on the going up to the gym that says we run through them, not round them. That's what I said at the gym. And I remember thinking at 90 kilos, there's no way I'm running through people, but I'm gonna have to. Is that is that kind of what an important piece to keep a culture that the vision of how you play?
SPEAKER_01I think that's really important. I think and that's probably one of the things that the great coaches are doing is is kind of just really, you know, having the vision of how you're gonna play and backing themselves. I'm looking at Saints playing right now and Vesti, and and it's really simple. And you speak to Vesto, it's like, man, just fun, have fun, play to space. And they run a fantastic triple struck stack and they'll ski you know, they work on their skills just on a daily basis, but but you know, regardless of winning or losing, they're they're talking about their identity, and their identity is just to play. And in the northern hemisphere, it's fantastic. You know, it's it's it's great to see them doing it. And and I think, you know, as you say, you look at Exeter, um, a great side, you know, Rob Baxter's in charge, and they were being really successful in in sort of 17, 18, 19, a couple of European Cup wins, and and then it just went off the boil a little bit, and they kind of lost their identity a little bit. Again, recruitment in around those areas, they probably didn't get it right. Rob Baxter's sort of taking the reins back and given them back their identity, and all of a sudden they're back kind of playing a very similar style that made them successful before, with a few really quick key additions, and they've been brilliant this year, you know, getting to a premiership final this year and then you know, sort of beating Bath in a semi-final was was was, I guess, you know, a surprise to a lot of people. But even like Bath with Johan van Graham, really, really, you know, South African style of they're tough, they're nuggety, and they've got some fantastic firepower outside of that to play. So yeah, I I think the division is hugely important, you know, allowing the the coach the time to get the right people into the room to to play to that vision. I think that's important. I I love when a coach comes to a new club and sort of and I've seen and heard it a couple of times, and I don't want to name names in anything that I do, but I uh you know when a coach comes to a club and actually says, just give me a couple of weeks to have a look at the players before I before I tell you how I'm gonna play. Because, you know, if you were to take over a team tomorrow and the team is the I'm gonna call them the you can't really pick them, the Eagles, and you're to take over the Eagles and you're gonna go, Oh, we're gonna play like this. It's amazing. It's like going into a chess game halfway through the year with all your pieces in place and going, Oh, this is how I'm gonna play chess. But you don't know until you see what pieces you've got. So I th I really like a coach that says, actually, just let me get on the ground, let me have a look at what we've got, and then I'll gonna tell you how we're gonna play until you know we're gonna hang around for a few years. If if you want to know how we're gonna play in three years' time, I'll tell you what my aspirations to be, to you know, who the who that is. But you can't just go in and say, Oh, we're gonna we're gonna be a forward-dominated team. That's great. All our forwards are 90 kilos, you know, playing in playing in a in a competition where you just can't do that. It's it's it's a uh I like I like coaches who kind of think, well, look at the pieces and then tell you how I'm gonna play.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love it. What sort of what's what sort of coach are you, Johnny? Like I I think it's really obvious what sort of player you wear. What sort of coach are you coaching?
SPEAKER_01Look, uh again, I guess formulating when you said to me there, you know, looking at that sign, I had a little right, rye um smile on my face because I was never gonna be able to run through people. I was never, and I and I and I never had any aspirations to run through people. I, you know, I was always the guy who who was like, right, I'm gonna ha how can I get around you through you, so you know, kick it past you, rubber kick, got it through your legs, get it through my hands, how can I fix you? How can I, you know, if it I'm I'm not gonna physically be able to run through you, and I'm not gonna be able to so so kind of I walked past that sign on many occasions and just thought, right, well, I'm gonna get it done a different way. I guess for me looking at it now, obviously coaching some younger kids, I you want to enjoy it. I think I like I genuinely believe rugby is the greatest game in the world. I genuinely believe that, you know, and that's not that's not noise. I think you know the the the things that I've learned from rugby and and sort of again, I've worked in sort of a little bit of industry post-career and in coaching. It's it's you know, the things that make you a fantastic rugby player make you a great rugby person. Like you go out, you earn your respect, you work hard, you know, you can be humble. All of those things make you a great team player and will make you successful in any walk of life. And I and I want to I want to sort of bring back the the the great parts of rugby to to young people and want them to enjoy it. I I don't think people should ever I I I want to play to space. I want to I always want to play to space, but you know, that is being smart and knowledgeable
Culture Is People And Accepted Behaviors
SPEAKER_01about the game, not saying that I want to run everything because I think there's a there's a really strong uh strong argument for for having a really great kicking game, but always kicking to space, not kicking down throats and and and not trying to kick him to compete. I I I think I want to see I want to see tries, I want to see the games like France, New Zealand on the weekend, I want to see those those great scores, you know, the Irish Australia game, I want to see you know creative rugby, running rugby, uh pods of play, and not uh stagnant kick fest.
SPEAKER_00Well, it makes it tough at UK uh winter sometimes, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_01It does, it really does, and I think that's one of the things that obviously people have to take into consideration and and sort of one of the big things when you know you look at Premiership rugby back in the day was you know, people go, I don't know why you play like that. I you know, you should just you should just throw it around. And my my Kiwi and Aussie friends would say, Oh mate, you should just be throwing the ball around, you should be ripping around, you got some skills, but sometimes in in the depth of winter, in in in sort of uh three inches of mud, it's difficult to do that. You need to always um have a dominant pack or at least a pack that can get you partly in the premiership at least. Um you need to be able to get some go forward ball because it's very, very difficult when you don't have that. And that's that that is something that that's important. But look, again, it that's the difference of you know running into someone or actually using little little tech plays in order to you know get softer shoulders.
SPEAKER_00Love them that and and you and you talked about uh the enjoyment factor. Now it it's not all playing sailing and coaching, is it? I've got a quote here that you pulled off on Churchill where you said, When you're in hell, just keep going. And you're referring to a little period in time where Leicester was at their lowest ebb and you were part of that. How does how do you get through that, mate, as as a coach? When you're under pressure, when you got that leadership role, and everyone looks back to the head coach, right, and goes, What's going on? How is the enjoyment then?
SPEAKER_01Mate, in all honesty, that was a really, really tough period of time for me. That was kind of basically the the the the lay of the land was I was an assistant coach in 2018-19 season. We sacked our head coach one week into the season, which was a bit of a nightmare. But the the the board turned around, came to me and said, like, look, we're bringing someone in in a few weeks. Can you just steady the ship for for a couple of weeks? I was like, Yeah, look, okay. And it was a it was an awkward one because a friend of mine got got kind of got removed and you're kind of going, Oh, this is this is awful. But straight away the workload went through the roof because not only had you lost another coach, so you're doing more, you every every one of the coaches is having to take a little bit more responsibility in relation to the coaching. And we were already quite stretched in in relation to sort of the amount of coaches we had on deck. So I was like, no problem, I'll take it on board. Took it on board. Sort of the the club were doing interviews and there was big names being mentioned in relation to coming in to you know to take over, but there was nothing happening, and we kind of got ourselves through to October, November. Um, and I was kind of saying, look, you know, what's happening here? And they said, Oh, we're gonna bring in, we appreciate we you know, we need to bring in a a couple of coaches. So they they brought in a coach to help, and it was kind of very apparent. I was four months into the job when they turned around sort of at Christmas time and said, Look, we want to offer you the position. But the problem being, like anyone who knows about sort of the the first hundred days is is you know very different from sort of managing the situation and kind of waiting for somebody to come in and take control and then trying to take control over that situation. And I'm to be quite honest, you know, I was I uh my coaching team wasn't exactly where I wanted it to be. We had some really good young coaches, we had some guys who've come in, we've we we we probably didn't really have time to build a really great relationship. There wasn't a huge amount of trust in the coaching team, which then sort of me as a head coach was trying to manage that. It was it was it was a was a tough whole year, and we were in a relegation battle at the back end of that year. We managed to stay up, which is the first time probably in Leicester's history where we you know the pressure was added on every week. You know, we had injuries, we had players who weren't fit enough to play because they kind of they hadn't been fit enough through that throughout the whole year. You know, we speak to opposition coaches and they'd say, Look, we know we're gonna get you in the last 10 minutes because you're not fit enough. But the the nature of the premiership is you haven't got enough time to get people fit enough. So it was just an absolute honk of the season. It felt like hell. It felt like hell for me, you know, a club that I'd loved and I'd been at for 20 odd years, and it was just it just felt like you're constantly putting out fires, you know, kind of looking for help where it wasn't. Again, you don't know what you don't know. So as an inexperienced head coach, and you're trying to figure a lot of things out, and again, as I said, not a lot of trust in the coaching environment. So it was a really challenging period, but we got through the year, we managed to stay up, and I thought, you know, this is fantastic, we'll learn a lot from that. The following year was a World Cup year, which is traditionally a very, very difficult period for Leicester. You know, I've been around since the 1999 World Cup, so I knew that you're gonna lose probably 10, 12, 13 players to international duty, and you're gonna have to start the season first four or five games without those 12 players is always a challenge, and that was certainly the case. But made the decision that we were going to already back some of the youth, Freddie Stewart, Jackson Portfleet. We signed some good players in from overseas. We signed in Harry Potter and Guy Porter, and we we signed in some really good young players, and I kind of had an aspiration to sign in some real big, strong overseas players as well. We started that season, season was going well. At Christmas time, international boys came back after World Cup and we started to win some games, and then we got shut down in the middle of the pandemic. So January 2020, we we got shut down and we basically were in a situation where no one knew. I can remember talking about what the heck is furlough and how are we gonna manage this? And and we had down period of time where we finished I think in January, February, we didn't come back. They said the season was going to be done. We had the option of a lot of players were leaving. I think we had about 13 or 14 players leaving in in June, and then they said we were gonna have to play the back end of the season in July. So I said, look, you know what, there's nothing on this, let's just play our youth, let's let's go bare bones until we can get some firepower in for for then the following season. And uh it was then played the season. Back end of that season, we got absolutely tonked. We were we were beaten in every game, but it was great because there was nothing on it in my eyes. We were just giving some people experience. Started the season, week one of preseason, and I got called in by the CEO, said, Look, you know, I know we've had an agreement that this was going to be a longer term contract, but you're not gonna be here next season. So I was obviously a bit devastated and gutted, and that was it. That was the end of 23 years.
SPEAKER_00Just like that one conversation, no warning.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it was it was brutal. It was absolutely brutal because you know the conversation. I tried to have a conversation, and I think I'm you know, kind of wanted to have a chat about the explanation and the reasoning and the role, and and the person who who fired me started to cry and ran out of the room, and that was the last time I I heard of them, so I didn't really even get the the the reasoning behind it.
SPEAKER_00Wow, mate, that is that is a sort of a really a saddening end to such a long connection with the club, which was such an immensive part
Identity Starts With How You Play
SPEAKER_00of your life.
SPEAKER_01Massively so, yeah. And again, like look, I think I think at times where we were at was as I said, it was I felt like we were in hell. Sometimes on a Monday morning going in, it was just, you know, what what are we gonna do? And I was trying to be upbeat, trying to be positive. So it was it was a really challenging time. And I don't feel like I was myself as an individual, as a human being in that time, that period, you know, chatting to my wife, chatting to my kids, you know, that they were sort of saying I wasn't the the human being that that I aspire to be. You know, I was just never home, never present. All the things that you that you get wrong, you just kind of get your head into the pressure cooker and and and you and you become this this version that isn't recognizable to yourself. So definitely, you know, I was I was under the pump. But yeah, it was it was it was it was a tough way to go. I again kind of very much put pay into somebody said to me, you know, it's it's a uh you very rarely get to write the the the last chapter of your own book, which is a uh very, very, very good way of looking at it. You know, me me and the club kind of we didn't really we we didn't really speak then for for a few years. And it was a uh yeah, it was it was it was it was probably not what I would have written, but it is what it is, in the words of a great man.
SPEAKER_00Have you found peace with it now?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think so. I I think so. I again like I find it difficult sometimes on the on the back of kind of the conversations that I know went on, and and I find it difficult neither the promises that I thought that that that were made, more so sort of my treatment by the club post-finishing, I thought was was kind of pretty tasteless. And then there's some bits and pieces in there. So kind of I don't feel the same love for the club that I did as a player for 16 years as and a coach for seven years. You know, I I drove the fact that you know we were all in a and you probably know because I was probably was I can't when was I wasn't captain when you were there, was I?
SPEAKER_00No, just understand.
SPEAKER_01Just after, yeah. So again, but I was one of those players who was probably driving how how you know we had to stick together and we had to do the right thing by the club. And then sort of sometimes when when you when you don't feel that that was that's reciprocated, it it it can be it can be quite bitter. But for me, I think now it's a bit like there's a lot of water under the bridge. I go back, I do um, I'm with Matt Hampson two days a week and do a lot for Hambo and some fundraising stuff. Hambo's got a box. So I go back and I watch games and you know see some of the lads and see some of the players. A couple of mates are still coaching. Brett Deakin has just left, who's obviously a pretty good mate of mine, to go to f to Gloucester and Matt Smith's still there as well, who's a very good mate of mine. So I kind of still have some some some ties into the club, but certainly don't have the same love for uh for the place that I did when I was here as a player and coach.
SPEAKER_00Isn't isn't it amazing how um the the way you leave a place or the a place leaves you leaves that last taste in your mouth which can affect everything that's gone before, all those great years before the importance for all leaders to probably remember is the last bit's gotta be done so well. That last chapter's gotta be written as well as you can for for someone.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I th I think that's a really a really good point uh in anything in in life. You know, I think people need to feel welcome back when they leave. You know, I think you talk about a lot of a lot of teams in the UK talk about you know kids leaving to go to the professional game and they always don't leave on good terms. So you might leave a local junior club to go to a Leicester or go to a Northampton or go to a a uh a sale and and they kind of almost you know feel off, you know, they shouldn't be going, you know, they're they're they're not going to get game time, they should be sticking with us, and then the the players don't actually feel welcome to go back to it. So I think there's there's a huge case for for people you know really shining a light on people leaving and and you know, obviously leave a lasting impression that they're they're welcome at a place and and that they can come back whenever they want.
SPEAKER_00So I agree, mate. And and how did you deal with obviously that's a horrible time and and all sorts of rumors and all that stuff happens. How do you deal with that? Like that's something I'm not amateur coaches, coaches don't have to deal with but in the role like that of a club like Leicester, it's very public, all of that stuff. I how do you deal with that?
SPEAKER_01Like, well to be quite honest, it was in the middle of the pandemic. So it wasn't a uh it wasn't uh it wasn't so public because you weren't really seeing anyone done. But you know, that that created problems in itself because I guess you know when you get sacked, the first thing that you sort of turn around and you want to do is you want to go back in and and you want to go and get get a job in rugby and you want to go and prove yourself and you want to come back to to Welfare Road and and win and and to prove how fantastic you are and and and that wasn't an option for me because you know everything was in lockdown, the teams had started just to come back into bubbles and you weren't going to get in anywhere. So there was some Zoom calls and there was there was, you know, maybe I'm gonna get some work here, some work there. Annika was pregnant with our third kid, so that obviously was it was a was a a little bit of a tough time as well. But it was it was a um yeah, it was I I think the first few few weeks I was probably just in complete shell shop. Like, you know, I speak to people now who were like, Oh, do you remember I came around and dropped off a bottle of a uh a bottle of wine on your doorstep? And I'm going, I don't even remember it.
SPEAKER_00You just knocked it back in one sitting, you don't remember.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, no, I didn't. I couldn't. I couldn't. No, I I just yeah, I think it was probably shell shocked for a few weeks, and then you're kind of in a little bit of limbo, and then the fact that we were sort of having a baby was kind of again, look, you're unemployed, you're burning savings, you're going, Oh my god, you can't get a job. What are you gonna do? It's back to the the the the old fear of what you know players get coming out of the game and God, you know, what am I gonna do now? I've played rugby for five years, ten years professionally, and and sort of now what am I gonna do? It was a little bit of that moment, um, kind of a little bit of soul searching. And then, like anything, it always ends up okay, doesn't it? You kind of find somebody puts you in touch with someone and you you end up doing a A bit of a bit of this and a bit of that, and then all of a sudden you kind of you're on a new path.
SPEAKER_00Mate, that's it's a tough transition, especially down by that. If you had to go back, what would you what would you do different knowing what you're now?
SPEAKER_01I I think when I went in, I was considered to be quite a young coach who didn't really know what he wanted, and that might have been the case. I think that sort of interim role was something that I probably just sort of said, no, look, look, you know, actually get someone in at Christmas and let them sort of deal with deal with sort of the issues that are here. I knew what the issues were. It's just they kind of I couldn't get them across the line because I was inexperienced. So I I think you know there's so much to be said for just doing it your way in the first hundred days, going in and and getting the right people in, and and you know, if you're not happy with the people that are there, get you mate.
SPEAKER_00It's as fast as you talk about uh the issues and you just didn't know how to get them across the line. And you said earlier you didn't know what you didn't know, and and part of the head coaching role is not just the coaching on the field, but it's the managing upwards, managing sideways, managing staff. And if you're thrown into that environment at a high profile target, it's it's not a good recipe for success. It's not setting you up for success, learning on that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly that's exactly it. And look, you know, again, I think I said before, I said it's a head coaching is an incredibly lonely place because you know, I guess my experience there was a lot of the people who I knew were in sort of the similar position as director of rugby roles, head coach roles, they were coaching in the premiership and around it. So it's incredibly difficult to ring someone and ask for advice and go, you know, now I think I I'd be far better set up to actually ring a Gibbo or a Pat Howard or a Transke or ring yourself or ring someone who's been in the game and go, mate, look, what do you think of this? This is a problem that I'm having. I've got a player who, you know, he won't train, he he's never fit, he's he's earning a lot of money, but you know, he he's he's on contract for three more years. He's he's really toxic and around the squad, you know, he he's he's negative in what he's saying. What do you think? And you'd go, mate, get rid of him. And you go, Yeah, I really should get rid of him, should I? But when you don't know,
Interim Head Coach Under Fire
SPEAKER_01you don't know. You don't have that, as I said, you know, that it's lonely in that you're trying to make these decisions on your own. You're afraid that, you know, it it won't look professional if you reach out. You don't want to reach out to the opposition, and most of that is kind of in the premiership. So yeah, like it's there's a reason I think it's great for players to sit and to coach and assist in coaching roles and to grow networks because that's they're the networks that will probably save you. You know, I kind of I didn't probably have the the or didn't appreciate the network that I have when I was in the role.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it is a big network. And and just talking on that lonely marketplace head coaching, I think all all coaches that have been head coaches, particularly at big environments, but and probably any club, amateur or otherwise, understand that feeling, that kind of loneliness. And and you sometimes think that reaching out to other coaches is oh, I can't do that, I don't look silly or I'm afraid I'm getting a bit nervous about that. But if you if that person's in that room, they know that feeling. And they they know what you're reaching out for. It's just a a a sounding board, a reassurance board, a venting board, or and it's important that you do it for your own. And this is coming up little ways, isn't it, to just become a better coach and understand definitely, definitely.
SPEAKER_01And look, you can see it, you know, w winning masks a lot of issues as well, culturally and everything. So it win winning will like if if you're winning, it's great because you're like, okay, you know what? And and and actually probably the time to look at the culture and look at the bits and pieces. When you're losing, that honestly creates so much pressure. And I I've seen it, I've seen it in the premiership, I've seen it at all of the local teams, and looking back on it now, and this is the great thing, like obviously, you get to look back on the lens when a team isn't successful or when the team's on a losing streak, you look at you look at the demeanour of the head coach and you can see it, they wear it on their face. You know, you Rob Rob Baxter at Exeter, you know, you look at him a couple of years ago. You if you if you you see him from you know the semifinal, see the energy and the passion that's in him when they beat Bath in the semifinal. But if you rewind the clock two, three years and look at him in the stand, he's going, Oh god, this is disastrous. You can see it on his face, you can see how much he wears it. And for that reason, I think it's an incredibly lonely place. You know, I've seen coaches with with teams that have been successful for the first half of the season and they look like they're on fire, they're they're sharp, they're polished, they're looking amazing. And then they start losing back end of the team of the year, and and the coaches having a horrible time with it. So it's it's a it's a lonely place. I guess some of the head coaches are very well set up now in relation to kind of being more knowledgeable of it. Um and I guess there's more people around who who will offer help as well and go, listen, here, what this is this is what I think.
SPEAKER_00Couldn't agree more, mate. And and like we're actually organizing a tour at the moment because we love this concept around other coaches being around other coaches to have these sort of conversations. It's it's just a it's just a great group to be around, like-minded individuals chatting the same stuff with the same stresses and frustrations and joys and sharing.
SPEAKER_01J do you know what, Jeremy? There's so much in that. I think I think even hypothetical situations and hypothetical problems to put one on a table and have a discussion and around it with a group and and just kind of say like it it it literally fruit future proof proofs you for for so many issues that you may, may or not have.
SPEAKER_00Hypothetical conversations future proof-proof you for future situations?
SPEAKER_01It's it's the the whole thing in around the thirteenth man or the devil's advocate, isn't it? Like, you know, you if if if there's 12 people in a room and they're all telling you that this is what's going to happen, and you've got one person going, well, no, what about if this is gonna happen? What about if they're gonna attack this way, or what if they you know they they they they pick 15 forwards and and you kind of think, oh, that's that's that's realistically never gonna happen. But what if it does? And what do we what can we learn by that and what can we what can we talk about from that? You know, what if our three our two nines and our two tens run into each other in the warm-up? What are we gonna do? Who's gonna play? You know, the just all of the the the hypothetical, the the yeah, the it's 99 times out of 100 never gonna happen, but what if it does?
SPEAKER_00What if this skinny Irish kid comes over here straight out of school, lights it up for three weeks? What are we gonna do? Who are we gonna kick out of the town?
SPEAKER_01How are we gonna keep him? How are we gonna keep him? How are we gonna keep him happy? How are we gonna grow him? How are we gonna develop him? Who's gonna take ownership of the conversations?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, how competitive is he? Let's get a psychometric test done. Oh wow, he's through the roof. Sign him up.
SPEAKER_01Psychopathic. He's too small, he'll never play.
SPEAKER_00Mate, what would you what would your advice be to just have any simple advice to to coaches that ask drug this sort of stuff?
SPEAKER_01Reach out. Reach out. Just reach out. I I think people are inherently good. Again, I think people all want to bend over backwards to help people. I know you would. I know most of the coaches I know would help anyone who's got an issue. So I would say, you know, just just reach out.
SPEAKER_00I guess on that, mate, just you've mentioned a couple of people on here, good mates of yours, and uh I know really well as well, like Lewis Moody and and Matt Hamson, both both great men, both I'm afflicted with some pretty rough news a long time ago with with scrum clubs and and yours just lately with uh neurons. While those are really rough diagnosis, it's it's a real testament to the group of mates they have in in the in the bigger culture. Like you you think you just got back from a fundraising bike tour and just watching from a big another country and you guys getting around the boys is is actually a really uh testament to the to not just a group of mates, but the bigger sport and the culture of the club where you became mates.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think so. I think all regards to Hambo, obviously he broke his neck in 05, and the club at the time really kind of rallied around him to support him, and he certainly feels very much part of a tight-knit team. But what he's done is is really inspirational, and and I guess both guys are inspirational in the way they're sort of attacking different problems. But you know, Hambo's created a centre here not far from me in Borough on the co on the hill, which is you know helping 50 to 60 young people with spinal injuries a week. So it's it's doing amazing things. And you know, we've got experience, Taylor Goff, who's you know, broke his back when he when he had a car crash in the middle of the pandemic in 2019-20. He's been a beneficiary there, so he's gone as an able-body person as one of the tigers to you know to support and to train, and now he's kind of doing amazing things, training for AA to try and get to the Paralympics. So the physical centre that Matt has created is is absolutely awe-inspiring, and and you know, Matt's obviously quadriplegic, but he's there leading the way in in energy and how you know things are going to go forward. And Lewis, on a very similar, very, very similar sort of vein, got diagnosed with MD, and and we all know we've seen kind of Gyaro and how that's gone gone down with you guys. But Lewis appear probably in a similar boat, has just attacked it in a really positive way. You know, he wanted to do a challenge with his mates and raised a lot of money and awareness for MND, and and uh you know he he decided he wants to take on a 505-mile bike ride. It ended up being 520 because we got lost on the first day, but that wasn't good for my for my uh for my spirits. But is it is it a moon off? No, he wasn't in charge, he wasn't in charge, it was it was it was a uh it was it was a a genuine navigation error, shall we say, but I won't go into it because I'm still a bit pissed off. But uh it was you know Lewis did every every mile, you know, for a bloke who who uh you know got diagnosed with M and D less than six months ago. You you're talking about a guy who who's just massively, massively inspirational and kind of he's gone out and he's he's attacking it and talking about hope and trying trying to find a cure, and you know, we've got to raise a lot of funds in order to to fund the the the cure that will eventually come. But I um the awareness is there as well. And and they're just it's it's amazing the the the MND space and that I you know I wasn't even aware that six people were being diagnosed daily with MND and there is no cure. So it it's again it's another another illness that needs to be funded, and and sort of Lewis decided he wanted to do it, so you know his his his mates got round him and said, Well, if we won't let you do it on your own, he probably would have got lost in fairness. But yeah, we were we were no help on day one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, mate, it's it's a testament to the the connection that's been created over the years and years of yeah
The Brutal Exit And Aftermath
SPEAKER_00kind of sports.
SPEAKER_01No, look, it's yeah, I and I think you know anyone would would would do that for for Lewis. He he is again similar to Matt, inspirational character, energy, positivity, just a good bloke. You can't you can't no one will meet Lewis and have a conversation with him and think oh he's a bit of an arse or he he's you know he's not humble or he's he's stuck up. He he's just a good human. He brings a lot of energy to every sort of encounter with people. And every time you talk to him, you feel better for for kind of just having had the conversation. So and and that's just not as a mate, that's across the board. You know, I meet people all the time. I said, Oh, I had a good chat with with Lewis, do you know him? I'm like, Yeah, I know. And what do you think? Oh my god, what a wonderful human, what a great guy. And this was, you know, this is for the last 25 years, not just not just uh the last six months or so. So he's he's a cracking human and he's doing great things. Um actually on holiday with him next Wednesday. So I uh you know, I have to say nice things about him in case he sees this before then.
SPEAKER_00Make sure he had so no, it's uh it is testament to what uh a lot of things made. It's it's it's especially well done. Jordy Murphy, we've got time for one more question, my friend. And it's the one we ask at the end. And with all your experience you've come through playing, candidate, coaching, director of road we've got you've had successes, you've had failures, you've been hired, fired, works and and one of the most high in the UK in Europe. I would like to know what's one belief you hold about culture or leadership that you believe in that you reckon some of your peers and contemporaries would disagree with.
SPEAKER_01So again, I'm not sure who would disagree with it, but but something that I believe in as a human being and a person is that you should try and leave the shirt in a better place than you found it. So do a really good job. Um your legacy will be that you've done the right thing by the team, the company, the friendship, the organization, whatever it is. I look back on kind of all of my roles and I think that's something that I could say that I would be proud of that when people think, well, actually, did he was he a good player, was he a good teammate? Yeah, actually he was. You know, was he a good coach? Well, you know, the with the success rate you can't well actually, yeah, he was. Look at look at the circumstances as a director of rugby very much the same. You know, did he do the right thing by the team? Did he do what he said he was going to do and try and get you know get things better? Yeah, he did. Um so some people probably would disagree with that in in that you know it's about maybe the here and now and the them, and you know, it's much easier to have your your job secured and and to to shine a light on being successful here and now makes you you you know makes it comfortable to to get you the job, but you know, are you leaving the place in a better spot than when you arrived? I think that's something that's really really important that probably well is important to me.
SPEAKER_00I think it's wonderful, mate. And I've I've I think a lot of people would actually be right on board with that statement. Yeah. So that's a massive fail on the that's a fail.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so let me let me say something. What what would you disagree with? Let me see. I um what would you disagree with? Hmm. I don't know what you disagree with. Don't don't eat your veg. Don't eat your veg.
SPEAKER_00Um most people think it would be appropriate to come around and ask a neighbor for a a cup of tea. And in your situation, never do that to you.
SPEAKER_01There'd be a big disagreement. Don't borrow tea. Don't loan tea. William Shakespeare, and neither a borrower or lender be for loan off loses both itself and friend.
SPEAKER_00It's a lovely finish, mate. And maybe if if you've got any questions about what a little internal joke there is about a cup of tea and and asking Geordie Murphy if he'll lend you a cup of tea. Don't ask.
SPEAKER_01It wasn't me, it was my brother. It was my it wasn't my killer. It was my brother, my older brother, who's uh far more direct than me. But we had a yeah, we had a visitor who repeatedly came to borrow tea. One day he used an expletive and told him that we no longer drank tea.
SPEAKER_00Love it, mate. Geordie Murphy, if I may, I'd like to just sum up with my three key points from this awesome conversation with you, my old friend. And they are these. I've taken off the headphones so I don't hear the echo. They are these, mate. Number one, this concept you talked about uh Leicester, about train hard, fight easy. That competition was a good thing. And I love the way you made sure that it was always left on field. And that at Leicester in those glory days, nothing stayed past the white lines, and players would eat together and enjoy themselves, regardless if they'd just been throwing punches at each other that little bit before. And I think that's a magic concept. And rugby certainly lends itself to be able to do that really well. And I want to take it a little bit further and then not leaving anything behind sitting the wrong way. And we talked briefly about your last chapter, not being able to write it the way you want it, and leaving a bit of a funny taste in your mouth, which sort of influenced your wider perspective on the whole experience. And I think it's important for all leaders to know the way you leave with someone actually leaves a greater mark than you might think. So try to do it as well as you can, as often as you can. Number two is this concept we talked about, have a vision of how you play. It's really important because if you don't have a vision which is aligned with the wider club, your selectors, your board, it can make a real mess of where you're trying to take things. So to have a vision of how you play, and sometimes that means if you step back and understanding how the place you're at actually plays first. And then be able to narrate that to everybody and bring people on board. And that is a skill set of a head coach, particularly.
Why Head Coaching Gets Lonely
SPEAKER_00And sometimes, as we talked about, if you don't know, you just don't know how to do that because it takes time. And number three, this concept that you talked about is head coaching is a lonely place. And I think anyone that's been a head coach understands the sentiment of that. But it's really important, as we discussed, that you actually take measures to not make it as lonely as it can be. Make sure you reach out to people, ring people, don't be afraid to just ask the question. Other coaches are more than happy to be a sounding board, a venting board, a suggestion board, because they know the feeling. Because inherently it can be a lonely place. But don't sink into it, reach out and open it right up. Geordie Murphy, what an absolute pleasure to reconnect, my friend, and have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today. Your legend.