Bill
The thing is that, you know, when the employee is coming to the organization, it's critical that they interview the organization as much as the organization is interviewing them. Yeah, that they're really feeling that sense of belonging in this culture and in this environment. And that, you know, ‘No’ is a good answer or ‘Not now. Not yet.’
You know, I've got some work that I want to do. I've got some evolution to happen, but it's really about the values and the employee value brand that they're offering. Makes a difference. Huge. Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker
This is Blu Thread Conversations with Leandra Harris and Stacy Parker, the Blu Ivy Group. Today we're joined by Bill Williams, leadership expert, author of the book “Electric Life” and keynote speaker. Through his work, Bill helps organizations translate leadership behavior into stronger execution, engagement, and momentum, connecting people to purpose in ways that drive real performance. In this episode, we explore the leadership, characteristics and behaviors that truly drive growth, from how leadership teams operate to why the middle of organizations so often break, and how leadership behavior ultimately shapes culture, performance, and the bottom line.
Leandra
Hello, Bill Williams.
Bill
Oh, it's so exciting to be here with you, Leandra. Stacy. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Yes.
Stacy
Happy to have you. Finally, Bill.
Leandra
Yeah. Yes. How long have we been friends for Bill?
Bill
Oh, don't even ask me to do math on how long we’ve been together. But I'm going to go with 20 years, probably. Yeah.
Leandra
Yeah. So just so thrilled Bill and in that time, you've worked with Stace and I on leadership development programs, coaching us personally, and you've even written a book, and spoken at several amazing conferences. So we're just so thrilled to have a conversation with you, Bill, today. We're going to talk all about leadership and the impact they can be making.
We have conversations daily, Stacy and I, about leadership. We have ongoing conversations with our clients. So it's just so awesome to have you join our podcast just so we can focus solely on leadership and the impact that they can be making and how the role has evolved. And where organizations are getting it wrong. Right? So I think there's so much opportunity for leaders to be better and for leadership teams to work more effectively to make the impact that they can make.
So welcome. And because I feel like it's such a treat to have you, I wrote notes because I want to make sure that we get this many questions that we have. I want to make sure that we have the opportunity to ask as many questions as we can. This is such a treat to have you. So welcome.
So the first question, Bill, I mean, you wrote a book, “Electric Life,” in 2022. You're a coach, you're a speaker. I mean, based on your experience, the people you've met, the research that you have done, today, what leadership characteristics do you feel those individual characteristics are key for leaders to make the impact that long sustainable impact on performance.
What are those characteristics?
Bill
Leandra, for me, without question right now, because we have so many examples of poor leadership, and a few examples of really great leadership. But I think the number one thing for me that all leaders really need to double click, double down on, is authenticity. Please don't try to be somebody else. Just be who you are and accept who you are. Lead from that way.
But as far as a skill goes and something that leaders really, I think need to tap into is emotional intelligence. It's been around for a while now, but I'm just seeing more and more challenges with it. So for me, emotional intelligence really comes down to the four S's: self-awareness, self-regulation. So now know how you're feeling and then how do you regulate yourself with that. Social awareness; read the room. And then social regulation. And behave in those ways. I think it's absolutely critical.
And the sad thing for me is that, you know, one of the micro steps in the book is fine, is not a feeling. And just yesterday I was working with a leader and in a leadership development program around how the team could be more effective together. And there was a leader that I was working with there that could not name an emotion. She could name circumstances and “Oh, I feel busy.” Or, you know, “I feel like, you know, there's no clear direction.” Those aren't feelings, people. And so, you know, if I could really take those four S's and bring it down to the simplest of emotional intelligence, it's just, you know. And the chapter begins with, when I ended my marriage, I went through some psychological support from my organization and employee assistance program, and I went to my therapist and she said, Bill, how are you?
And I'm like, I'm fine. She said, no, Bill, really, how are you? I'm like, I'm fine. And she said, Bill, fine is not a feeling. Are you happy, sad, glad, mad or angry? And I'm like, I'm fine. And so what I realized in that moment was that I was actually numb because not only was a marriage ending, but I was realizing that I was misaligned in my own authenticity around my sexual orientation.
You know, the world said that I was supposed to be heterosexual, and I didn't realize until later on that I wasn't. I'm a member of the queer community and gay. And so, you know, really kind of interesting stuff that's there. But be your authentic self. Pay attention. Step number one. How are you feeling? And if you can't name an emotion, Stacy, is it a thumbs up or thumbs down day for you?
Stacy
Yeah, today's a thumbs up there.
Bill
Yeah. Awesome. So there we go. Thumbs up. Number two is how much of that are you feeling? So are you okay? Right in the middle. Are you good? Are you ready? Woohoo! Run up and down the halls high fiving Leandra because you just, you know, closed a big deal or had a great client experience. And it's okay if it's a bad day, you know.
Are you okay? Are you bad? Was it brutal? Do you need to go take a kickboxing class? Because it's like you were so over this day. So number one again, how are you feeling? Thumbs up, thumbs down. Number two. How much of that are you feeling? But here's the thing for leaders, Leandra. What's the impact you have on other people when you're feeling that emotion to that degree?
And if you've ever walked into a room and you could literally cut the tension with a knife, you've just met two people that are not very emotionally intelligent. They could be your in-laws. They're two people that are very emotionally intelligent right now. And so I think that's critical, you know, what are you seeing around emotional intelligence?
Leandra
Yeah. And I like before I get into that, Bill, where I struggle. Because as a leader you can influence. Like if I'm in a bad mood I can influence my team and impact my team. So I sometimes struggle with authenticity. On one hand, I admire it and I know it does build high trust. Like you've been always, and that's something I admire about you, Bill, like you've always been open and honest about who you are. And, but if you are too open, like, say, I am going through a really hard time and I'm really mad. And that can also impact the team. And you also have to be cautious about that or do you? Right?
Bill
Yeah. Well, I think you do. I had you know, I have a give I, I'm not a gambler by any means. But my team used to say to me, “Oh, the meeting's over.” And I'm like, “What do you mean?” They're like “The meetings over,” and, like, “I don't understand, but I'm the boss. You're my employees. And you're telling me the meeting's over?”
They're like, “Yeah, you rubbed your head.” And I'm like, “What?” Like, “Every time you rub your head, it tells us that you're stressed. We know that you're stressed right now and this meeting is about to end. You're about to end this meeting.” And I'm like, I didn't even realize that. So, Leandra, it's okay to not be okay.
Leandra
Yeah.
Bill
And it's okay to be angry and frustrated and in a bad mood. The question is, and that's where the self-awareness and then the self regulation. How do you articulate that to your team? You know, are you throwing a pad of paper across a desk and screaming at people? Are you just like, you know what, folks, I'm really frustrated today and we have a problem that we need to solve and how do we come together on this? So again, back to the authenticity. You're allowed to have a bad day. But you know, tapping into Disney, if you will, as a company that may be perceived as a good organization to be with. You know, they only talk about two locations at Disney. The only two locations at Disney are on stage and off stage.
Yeah, there's no employees. Everybody's a cast member, right? You're either on stage or off stage. And when you're on stage and you're in your costume, whether you're sweeping up popcorn that was spilled or when the actual cast members like a character, you know, whoever that might be, a princess or a prince, whatever. You're on stage. And so the only place you can get out of that character is when you go off stage.
And as leaders, this is where I really challenge the leadership team to know who their first team is, who are their peers. That's your first team. And who's your one go to person one? Go to person that you can really go off stage with and just say, “Hey, I'm having a bad day. Help me out here.” Like, I think those relationships are really critical as well amongst the senior leaders. But I've worked for some really bad bosses, Leandra, and I literally would call the administrative assistant and say, is this a good day or a bad day? I got a challenging one coming up and they're like, “Oh, don't come over today.” I'm like, “Thank you.” Yeah, okay. Good to know. Good to know.
Leandra
Yeah I love that. And emotional intelligence we agree, though, like we see that is so key. And I think it's really cool that you're even seeing that in the education system, how schools now are placing more weight on emotional intelligence. And it's not just, is your kid excelling in math, science, english? Are they a decent human being who has resilience, leadership, collaboration, which I think is really cool, and are they self-aware? So it's really nice to see that because I think it's so important as a leader and for every human right to have that high IQ and emotional talents.
Bill
Love it.
Stacy
And I love how you talk about managing. Your job is to manage the energy in the room. And I can say personally, I can reflect on the times where I wasn't fine.
Leandra
Yeah.
Stacy
And, and the way that the whole meeting went, the way that I managed energy. And then what happened for the rest of the week wasn't ideal. And I can think of that from a sales lens to, like, if I am exercised and feeling really great, the sales calls that I'm having are really fantastic. Like that management of energy that you talk to is so important for getting everybody on the ship.
Bill
Well, and so, revenue generation. Absolutely. That top line of the organization, without question. You show me a salesperson that's just heard three no's in a row, and I can prove that salesperson that's going to get a fourth no. You show me a salesperson who's just had three yeses in a row, and it's like, good luck to the next customer. Because the energy, the passion is so there for the product that they believe in and the good that that product does for your client, whoever it may be, and whatever that product might be.
Stacy
Yeah. And so like when you started the call with the fact that so many are struggling now with that emotional intelligence. Why do you think that is, Bill? Because, I mean, it's been I feel like I've gone through the most challenging few years. It's easier, it's easier for me to bounce back faster now than it was a couple of years ago.
But when I think of, like so many managers or salespeople, ‘the knows’, the collective energy of the world, you know, I think has had a weight on that emotional intelligence, like just the muscle.
Bill
I think the business world has stifled our emotions because we were told, “No, no, no, don't tell me how you feel. Tell me what you believe.” And you know, so these were things we were literally “Don't be emotional at work. This is not a place to be emotional.” Especially when we really leverage, you know, the emotions of 50% of the workforce.
And so I'm talking about genders now. And, you know, like, I think that women are much more attuned with their emotions than men are. Men just stifle it. And so when you ask them how they're feeling, they can't even articulate that. So the challenge I give to my coaching clients is just simply Google “Emotions Wheel Simple” and by adding the words simple it just makes it a very basic emotions wheel.
But when you see it, you'll find the core 4 or 5 or 6 in the center: Happy, sad, glad, mad, or angry. But when you step out from that, you will see two more emotions for each of those. And when you step out, one more ring from that, you'll get at least two more emotions for each of those. So in many cases, I challenge my clients to find the outer emotion that you believe you're experiencing right now and drag it back into the center again, as simple as are you happy, sad, glad, mad, or angry?
And just know what that is. Know how that feels. And then again, regulate yourself in that environment. It's okay to admit it. It's not okay to raise your voice, scream, shout, or throw things. Unless you unless it's the exciting side. It's like “Woohoo!” Like, absolutely “Woorah! Like we're going big!” But even then, you know, what's the impact you're having on the team?
Stacy
Thats great.
00:13:37:19 - 00:13:51:13
Leandra
And Bill, like, those are kind of key characteristics for individual leaders. What are key characteristics for effective teams, leadership teams, in addition to embodying obviously those characteristics.
Bill
Yeah. So Leandra, you know, I'm going to go to a model. I'm going to Patrick Lencioni. And that's the one for me that really works. The five behaviors of a cohesive team, based on his book, “The Five Dysfunctions of a Team.” And when people look at the model, I think they assume that they know what he means just by seeing the titles.
But they're sadly very misinformed. So the foundation of the pyramid or the triangle is trust. But this is not predictive trust. Like, “Oh, I know what's going to happen on Friday.” No, no, no, it's not that kind of trust. This is the Brené Brown trust. This is: do you have the courage to be vulnerable? So back to that authenticity we talked about earlier. You know.
And what I love about what Brené shares with us is that it takes courage to be vulnerable. And when you are courageous, you're being vulnerable. But what I challenge leaders to tap into is they keep saying, “Oh, I'm being vulnerable. I'm being vulnerable,” like they should get a cookie, or a badge of honor, or a cup of tea.
No, please dial down, and leverage in on the courage part of it. So that's the foundation. You need to have that trust that I can be my authentic self and that you will hold me accountable, if you will. You might challenge me. You might ask me questions. But that I can show up and I belong on this team. I don't fit in, I belong.
Up from that, he chooses and challenges us to think about conflict. And again, conflict has a bit of a negative connotation here, and people think of it in the wrong way. Conflict is simply because we trust each other so much, I can share my opinion. So really think about conflict as the brainstorming stage and making sure that every idea gets on the table.
And let me tell you right now, the first 3 to 5 ideas, those are the easy ones. Dig deeper, work harder, do your work to share the tougher things that are going to come through. The things that are almost laughable. You know, like, I remember when I was a kid watching Star Trek and they would tap on their chest in their badge, and then they would communicate to the great starship, you're coming through to me on my earbud here. Like, this is like, absolutely mind blowing, that that laughable idea back in the 80s is now something that we're leveraging and utilizing today. So have the conflict; get really dirty, get really messy with that, and let all these great ideas come out.
The next step up is commitment. Will you commit to the idea? Now people think that that means consensus. No, please do not waste your time getting to a consensus, but get to the point where “I can live with this. I can sleep tonight knowing that that's what we're doing. This won't be our last iteration. We've got better things coming, but this one will be a good, you know, placeholder for us for now. This will take us to where we need to be right now.”
So commitment just means everybody buys in. And let me share with you what commitment does not look like. It doesn't mean you go back to your team and they go, “Oh, well, why are we doing that? That's a stupid idea.” And they say, “Yeah, I agree with you. I didn't agree with this one either. But it's what we have to do.” No, that's shoving your team in front of the bus.
Like, no. Understand why you're doing what you're doing right now. Now the next level up is accountability. And with accountability, again, I think people think it means, you know, you screwed up and you were late, and I'm telling you now. No. Accountability is checking in with each people, each person that you might be providing inputs to or you might need outputs from and just say, hey, listen, you know, I'm writing the company newsletter on Friday and, you know, are you going to get to me on Wednesday everything that I need in order to write that? So I'm just checking in, you know, and or please respect me enough to let me know you're not going to make my timeline so I can readjust my schedules and my timelines, but it's also sharing with people. When you did not meet my expectation, you know, I wasn't clear with you what I was looking for with this.
And so, again, it's just going back to that foundation of trust. We can talk to each other that way. And then the final step is at the top of the pyramid there. And Stacy, this one's really big for you, probably because it's about results. And results are not individual results. Results are the team's result. And that might mean “I need to let go of what was my higher agenda, right now, so that I can contribute to the team achieving its success versus my own singular success.” You know, “I don't care if you make your bonus or not. I'm making my bonus. And so I'm going to do what I have to do. For me.” That's not a team. So I would say that those five skills, competencies, characteristics that's really those are the behaviors I'm looking for.
And when I think of competencies, I look at what behavior do I need to demonstrate in order to embody that competency.
Leandra
Right. And I think you've answered our next question. Which is about what leadership behaviors are holding an organization back. Right. And I think you've given examples, right, where you've this strategy, like everything is there. But what, you know, the leadership teams aren't, you know, there's no accountability, there's no commitment, there's no trust. You know? Anything else you would add there, where you've seen leadership teams and everything, like the strategy is brilliant. They've got all the ingredients.
Bill
But yeah, I think for me the biggest lacking that I'm seeing in organizations right now, I just had a trip traveling recently and the wheels fell off the cart. I mean, the flights were delayed, delayed, delayed. And then finally the flight was canceled. It was an international flight and so different, you know, there were different customs and immigration processes we needed to go through.
And what happened was that, you know, some people were protected on a later flight. Other people, “No, you're canceled altogether.” And so when you're normally going on a flight and you're normally on time, you normally check your bag and it arrives at your destination. Everything's great.
Stacy
Yeah.
Bill
But what about those times when things aren't so great? And so this is where the wheels really fell off. The cart was, you know, literally. I finally got cleared to leave the boarding area through a secured way, got to pick up my luggage and my luggage wasn't there. So I went to the lost luggage area and literally there were 1 or 2 people working.
I didn't know they were working as a team and there was one person literally picking bags. Can you imagine that job that day? You're the one person picking the bags up. So it's when the wheels fall off the cart. What are the plans that we have for that? And how do we make sure that we're not blaming others?
Yeah, we just take responsibility. And I think that you know, one organization I worked in, after every project, we had a blame storming session.
Leandra
Oh, I like that.
Bill
Well, no, it's terrible because all we were talking about, what can we do to improve next time around? It was terrible because it was like, I'm about to get pointed out and everybody's going to blame me for the failure of this project.
Leandra
What I thought it was like making a fun name, Bill. Like it was more, oh, open. Like, what did we learn from it? But it was a real like, let's…
Bill
I don't want to get fired. I'm going to blame somebody else. You know, it was sales, it was implementation, it was operations, it was service. It was like, no, no need to blame. Let's just pull together. What did we learn from this?
Leandra
Exactly.
Bill
So that's where for me, there's no, the only time there's failure is when you don't learn something from it.
Other than that I refer to it as a miss hyphen take. And what's our next take going to be? What do we learn from this and how will we improve our performance next time around? Let's take a look. You know, Pareto principle. You know, 20% of our activity has 80% of our outcome, which is great. But what about those others? What about that inversion? You know, what are the things that happen very rarely? Do we have a plan that we can easily pull out, that the team feels will support them in their success as they go forward? So I'm not sure that I answered your question, but I gave us more to think about, maybe.
Leandra
No, you did. And I know Stace has some questions on middle management, so I'll pass it on because that is like the biggest discussions and recommendations that we have with our work. So over to you Stace.
Bill
Thank you.
Stacy
So that middle management is something that like I’m super keen to hear your thoughts more. So more and more, there's two things that we confront on the employer brand side of things like it has become clear industrywide that HR can't own the employer promise alone. That managers really need the tools to be able to live that promise day to day, or the employer brand isn't going to have the legs and the impact that it needs.
And the other thing is, we have been working with private equity a lot over the last year. And when we're digging into ‘where do we see the greatest risk?’ for organizations, very often we see it at that middle management level.
Bill
Right.
Stacy
High, high performing organizations. Great results. Investors come in and say, guess what? We're going to scale because we believe in you as a leadership team so much. But now you see this wait, new skills, new muscles that need to be developed. And there's a lot of weight that's being pushed there. So when you use some of your coaching guides, what would you say is the biggest hold up that is so important for middle managers to get right, to make sure that their strategy, ideas are getting input the way they're expecting.
Bill
I love how you sort of word that question. Because for me, middle management is the hardest or hardest part of the, yeah, the hardest job in the organization. There's no question in my mind. And the mantra that I've always worked with for myself and others is that our job in middle management is to protect our people from our boss and our boss from our people.
Bill
We are there for a reason. We are a translator. We are the communicator. From the top to the bottom, and the bottom to the top. And we need to be really careful because if we, you know, the way our boss talks to us may or may not be appropriate. But you know what? They're making the big, big bucks. We're making the big bucks. We got people making little bucks down below, right? And again, I hate that hierarchy of higher and lower. Like if anything, I'd rather invert the pyramid and customers at the top. Senior leadership. Sorry. You know, then first line employees and then supervisors, managers and the president should be at the very bottom of that, not at the top of it.
But the point is that, if, you know, our boss speaks to us, it could be really direct. There could be a lot of brevity, and we just need to take that message and get it. I think the other thing that is critical for senior leaders to make sure that middle managers know is context. Why are we doing what we're doing?
Don't just tell them what to do or or here's what you need to get accomplished and let them figure out how to do it. But make sure they understand why they're doing what they're doing, because that enables decision making at their level. But at the same point in time, if that middle manager tells their boss exactly what their employees think about this project, this idea, this initiative, it may not be received well at all either.
So as a middle manager, your job is to do the translation from your individual contributors to your boss and from your boss to your individual contributors. And be really, really careful. Because in some cases, they might hold you accountable for something that happened and you need to decide. So, I mean, we're all in the HR field, if you will.
I always remember one of my employees, and at one point, she just forgot to give me a report that I needed, but I knew where she kept it in her desk, so I wasn't worried about it. I went working a little bit late that evening, and I went to her desk, pulled open the drawer, and there I saw her best friend, Johnnie Walker, FYI if you don't know what Johnnie Walker is, it's Scotch and alcohol. And in that organization, if you were under the influence of or in possession of alcohol, well, at work, guess what it was grounds for immediate termination. And, the bottle was open and someone was gone, and there was a glass there as well. So, you know, I had a sense of what had been going on.
But foolishly, this is where I learned the lesson. I told my boss and I just thought life went on. I was just sharing a story. No big deal. Came time for, then, the annual performance review, which I don't think most organizations are really doing those anymore. But regardless, I had to get it signed off by my boss and they said, “Where's that story about the Johnnie Walker?”
And I'm like, “Oh, you're not seriously going to make me put that on the performance evaluation that will sit in her file for seven years.” And so I did. I just simply put that that employee suffered an error in judgment and I was confident it would never happen again. But I learned right there that, you know, there were some things that, you know, yes, you need to accept responsibility for if that was going to be grounds for termination, then maybe I needed to be held accountable for that.
But at the same point in time, you know, I knew it was never going to happen again. So I'm not going to, you know, that one error in judgment isn't going to affect that employee's life for the rest of their life, if you will. So I, you know, how do we buffer between them. But I think just to, if I can add on one more piece, Stacy, it's that the senior leaders need to catch the middle management and catch the individual contributors living the values.
You know, I've been in some very high sales organizations that were phenomenal. The top salesperson nailed it every single year in their numbers, but watch their behavior and it did not embody one of our values. And no one ever held that individual accountable. So why do I have to live the values if they don't? And how do these middle managers prove that they're living the values and catching their people, living the values?
That's what's going to make that employee brand and really retain your great people and attract new people, is by living your values.
Stacy
Yeah, yeah. And when you, so again, those muscles. And I know you talk a lot about making sure that you're really clear on the one thing because that clarity and depth really helps it to achieve the objectives. But when I think of, there's two things as I was listening to you, I think of the middle managers that over the last two years have had to manage change, at rapid pace and a lot of cost cutting. Right? It's been about cut, cut, cut, minimizing. And, you know, 2026, there is a very good chance for a lot of organizations that it's going to be about growth again. So new muscles, new things that we're talking about and trying to focus on. So how do you give managers consistent tools, to be able to do that? And consistent messaging to do that.
Bill
I think the biggest thing, Stacy, when you're talking about the budget cuts, you know, I look at change management initiatives in organizations and they always protect the money for the what. You know, they protect the money for the new location. They protect the money for the new technology. But when it comes to the psychological side of things, that's where they cut the budget.
And they don't take time to allow the employees to have some controlled venting around what's going on. So for me, the psychological side and the phases of change, there's the ending, you know, William Burgess model, there's the ending. There's a neutral zone where productivity drops dramatically. And then there's the beginning. You know, it's the ending of the old way.
We've got all this neutral zone. We need to be creative to figure out how we're going to make this work. And then the beginning is the new way when we're all embodying that new location, that new process, that new technology. But the other thing that goes on during that productivity drip is the denial that this is ever going to change. The betrayal.
So again, leaders, look at your communication, whether you're a middle manager or a senior manager. How are you consistently still, you know, if you will, communicating and banging that drum and keeping that tempo going for everybody. Denial is first. And with that you're going to feel betrayal. You know, I was the originator, I created that and now we're moving on to something new.
Like I feel betrayed by this organization during the denial phases. Then we go into resistance and really watch because there are active resistors that middle managers will avoid. But you know, they're the easy ones to notice. What about the passive resisters? You don't even know what they're doing below the water level. We then get into some experimentation and let's be creative.
Let's find some new ways. Really, they are tapping into your people. They're closer to this initiative. They know better what the customers need. And how do you ask them for their ideas and their contributions? For me, the mantra here is: involvement breeds commitment. And the more involved they are in figuring this out, the more committed they're going to be to making it work.
But that's that whole experimentation phase. And then finally we get to commitment. And there we're committed to this new way and we're feeling the success. So stop cutting the budget to have that psychological opportunity for people to learn. Make sure if they know anything, that they know the phases and the transitions of change and what they're going to be going through.
Because the more they know it, the faster they can move through it. When you know, “Hey, I'm in denial. Who do I need to talk to that's going to tell me this is going to work? I'm resisting right now. Why am I resisting? How can I move through resistance more quickly? What are some good exploration techniques I can use?” And then finally, “How can I commit to that in the end?”
Stacy
That's good for good. And I think what that I take away also is how important it is whether it's in a large growth situation like a private equity investment and you're scaling or you're in this moment of great transformation, either from a budget perspective or now growth, that there's tools we need to have some consistent questions that we're asking our middle managers.
Making sure they're bringing that back and then deciding as a collective on how we move forward. So it really is about consistent listening to all managers.
Bill
I love it. Yeah. And really focusing on your questioning, you know, stop asking the ‘Why’ questions and really make sure that you're asking ‘What’ questions, ‘How’ questions. And really engaging those people so that it doesn't feel like an interrogation. But that it does feel like a true partnership. And we're working together to solve this problem.
Stacy
Yeah, yeah, I love that, I love that.
Leandra
So are you seeing Bill? Like to what Stacy and both of you, like are you seeing large global organizations because we work with many of those. And when you've got middle managers spread across the world.
Bill
Yeah.
Leandra
How do you engage them and ask those questions and give them the tools so that they can be asking their people the right questions and giving them time to talk, like how do you bring all of those people together to give them the right tools? Like what have you seen? Is it like frequent calls? Is it like leadership toolkit communication toolkits, like what have you seen that's been really, really effective?
Bill
Most effective are those communication toolkits. Because you're right. I mean like even one global company, the culture is different in every part of the company and country as well. I was remembering I'm working with a client and we were having a session down in southern Florida and we were working with a lot of their people from Latin America, and I was told, something's going to come in a little bit late.
And I'm like, okay, that's fine. That's great. You know, come in around the coffee break and everything will be good. Well, this individual arrived and a part of the culture was that they had to go around and greet every individual personally with, like, you know, kisses on the cheeks and the whole bit. Well, number one, for me, kisses is like, no, we don't, we don't kiss at work.
And then number two, it's like you're disrupting a whole class for 20 minutes and I've only got so much time. So you need to help other people learn and understand the culture and not say, no, no, no, we're a North American company, so you must have a North American culture. It's not going to work in other parts of the world.
So embrace those cultures, understand them, do your work, learn what it means in that country and what that culture is like. And that's just the country culture, never mind the corporate culture. And, you know, and for me, if there's anything, I want your culture to repel people so badly that no one would ever want to work for you.
And I would want your culture to attract people so strongly that they absolutely want to work for you. You know, when I was looking in preparation for our call today, I found out that some of the top organizations in the world are Hilton Hotel and Cisco. Yeah. So I don't care if you work in technology for Hilton, and if you're working at Cisco, you're probably in technology.
But one of those companies should attract you. One of those companies should repel you because even though you're doing the same job, it's the culture that makes the difference. Do you want to work for a luxury hotel, or do you want to work for a tech company? Yeah, that's going to be different.
Stacy
Yeah, I love that. And so often, in the employer brand space bill, we're like, you know, there's a lot of discussion about like what? What are the phrases? How are you going to attract? What is the value proposition that is going to attract the top talent for your industry, and what behaviors do you want to make sure that you're bringing on so you can repel the talent that won't fit.
When you think about that and parlay that into leadership. Because people trust leaders more than organizations. They stay with leaders or leave leaders, not organizations. What are the behaviors you think really demonstrate what a company's employer brand is like? If you look at leaders, you do so much coaching, can you tell?
Bill
Yeah, well, I think the biggest one and the one that frosts me even as a client is like, you know, my bank is all of a sudden offering, I don't know who would want it anyways, but a new tablet. It's like I've been with you for 30 freakin years and somebody that has no money with you, you're going to give them a gift of a tablet in order to be attracted.
So I think that's where corporations get it wrong. Stacy. The best attraction strategy is an amazing retention strategy. And be there ready to say, “Oh, hold on, I want to interview, but I want you to interview your peers because I want you to hear from them what it's like to work with me. I want you to come on board to this organization. I think you'll be a great person that will really belong here.” And that's a big thing. Belonging versus fit. I don't want to have to change my hat and change my wardrobe to fit in with you. I want to be able to show up with my freak flag on or whatever it is, and just be who I am and be welcomed by you, and that I belong there.
And that again, it's about how do you retain those great people and have them be your ambassadors to attract new people that want to be in that culture? Skills technically aren't going to do it, but when you can live the values of the company, when you can live that employee brand, that's where you're going to find some really great retention and some really great attraction for people to come and scale with you.
Stacy
And do you look for that, like when you're looking at coaching, senior leaders, are you looking on their LinkedIn, for example, and seeing how they show up? What their brand looks like?
Bill
Well, I mean, more often for me to be quite transparent, it's like the ones that don't have it are the ones that I'm going to be able to help the most because it's like, here's what you need to do. So yeah, so I really challenge them. It's like, okay, what are the core values of the company? How have you seen those demonstrated?
My favorite question is as demonstrated by what. And then what are your personal values? How do those align? How do those really connect with the organization so that I'm not asking you to compromise your personal value day in and day out? Do those core values really, really, really connect? And then that's where, we've got an amazing culture now and a place that you want to stay forever and do amazing things and grow in scale.
Leandra
And I love that. That's part of being authentic, right? As a leader and a middle manager, giving them the space to these are the behaviors. These are our values. These are our commitments to employees. What do they mean to you? And do you agree with them? Do you not? How did they align with your values? Giving them the space to do that. Right? Like that's so key to get a whole organization aligned right.
Bill
So, you know, to bring it full circle, Leandra, for this talk, the thing is that, you know, when the employee is coming to the organization, it's critical that they interview the organization as much as the organization is interviewing them. Yeah, that they're really feeling that sense of belonging in this culture and in this environment. And that, you know, no, is a good answer or not now, not yet. You know, I've got some work that I want to do. I've got some evolution to happen. But it's really about the values and the employee value brand that they're offering makes a difference. Huge. Thank you, thank you.
Leandra
Can I ask one final rapid fire?
Bill
Yeah. Sure!
Leandra
Really quickly. What advice would you give to CEOs in 2026? What can they be doing with their leadership team to make sure, you know, what's the one thing that they can be doing?
Bill
Doctor Robert B. Cialdini in his book Influence: The Psychology of [Persuasion] oh, the rest of that will come through and probably pop up in a little chat box later on in this, in this call. But at any rate, one of the best ways that you can build trust is to admit a failure, admit a downfall, admit, you know, a mistake that you have made, and just be honest about that.
Don't try to hope nobody noticed it. Call it right out. It's like I've got spinach in my teeth. Like just, they see it, they know it's there. Don't pretend it's not so. And if you really want to build trust, let them know it's psychologically safe to make a mistake. But again, here's the critical thing. This is a mistake I made.
And here's what I learned. I like that. And so I know I won't make that mistake again. I might make one similar to it, but if I had to give a CEO any advice right now, it is, you know, just acknowledge that something didn't go as well as we had hoped. We wanted it to be better. It didn't.
I'm just going to be honest, transparent and truthful with you. And how can we, together as a team, as a corporation, make that better in the future?
Leandra
Yeah, I love that. That's a missing piece you rarely hear. I've seen so many apology letters over our career. Right, Stace? Stories from CEOs, “I did this wrong. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.” But they don't say. What did you learn from it? What are you going to do differently? So anyways, oh my gosh, I could keep you forever.
Stace, any final words? Bill?
Bill
No thank you, thank you, thank you. Maybe we can come back and do another one six months from now and who knows what we'll talk about.
Stacy
Would love to do that. And, honestly, Bill, you have been such a light post for Leandra and I over the years. And just things you've already said on this call I'm reflecting on from times where you've coached us and how I felt in that moment, going back to feelings and how those feelings weren't really addressed, but then turned into ways I wish I had to kind of manage the energy a little bit differently. So not only was this a great podcast, I think for people to listen to, but I feel like I got a few gems to add to my toolkit for ‘26. So thank you.
Bill
My pleasure. The partnerships always been there. I knew you when you worked for corporations and now you've created your own corporation. So I am so proud of everything you've accomplished and the culture you've created, but the difference you're making with everybody else. So I'm a fanboy here. I could go on forever and ever, but I'll simply say, I appreciate you and everything that you've brought into my world.
So thank you.
Leandra
We appreciate you too, Bill. Thank you so so much for the coaching call and the podcast. We appreciate you.
Bill
Any time. Thank you. Thank you.