Joey

If we're at the end stages of either a decision, or a body of work, or a change, and that question is still asked, we aren't solving for the right problem. And measurement is a great way to call that out early on, and make sure we're aligned and clear on what we're solving for.

INTRO

This is Blu Thread Conversations with Blu Ivy Group. Today we're joined by Joey Frosst, head of business development at Blu Ivy Group. In her role, Joey is often the first to hear what leaders believe they need. An EVP refresh. Stronger hiring results. Better alignment. Or improved reputation. But as those conversations unfold, the real work begins. Because surface requests rarely tell the story. In this episode, we explore why digging deeper matters. How uncovering the root cause behind hiring pressure, retention strain, or performance gaps leads to more meaningful and measurable impact. And why taking the time to clarify the “Why?” behind the work is what ultimately drives stronger leadership, alignment, and results.

Leandra

Stacy is out looking after her adorable puppy. So happy to have you join, Joey. And it actually works out perfectly to have you this week because we are talking, and I love the title of this podcast that you and I, well, really you came up with, and it's titled “Okay, But Why?” The problems beneath the problems. And what you do as head of business development, Joey, you were talking to so many people about why they are looking for our help. And you come from a global consulting background, so you have a lot of experience, hearing firsthand from prospects about the challenges they are having. And often you're hearing the same challenges, right? Where revenue isn't where, you know, we need it to be. Productivity is down. We've gone through a lot of change. But what you get and what you probe is, that's often not the problem. 

The problem is much deeper than that. Clients aren't going to us and saying, Joey, our leadership team isn’t aligned. Joey, our, you know, trust has been broken. They're coming to you with, you know, asking for the deliverable or focusing on the financial problem.

So I'd love to start with, what are you hearing out there in the market? What are prospects coming to you for what they need help with?

Joey

Yeah, I think you said a great, you know, we don't often get the ask in plain English, decipher the ask a little bit. I think to start, no one asks for employer branding by name. You know, we don't hear employer brand used as a solution unless you're in the industry or unless you're an employer brand practitioner yourself. And so the fun of what I get to do is peel back some of those layers. You know, where is that problem stemming from?

And it really comes from one place, which is change. There's positive change. There's a not-so-positive change that can happen. But regardless of what side of the fence you sit on, that's really where the ask derives from. And then it's just a matter of determining how that change is going to impact. So that could be on the one side of things, we're growing like crazy, and we need new talent.

We're opening new locations. You know, how do we keep up with this rapid growth? And there's this excitement and this buzz. It could also mean we're going through a reorg, and it's a challenging time. And we need something that's going to help us, you know, keep everyone together and keep things moving forward in a time where there's maybe not as exciting of a change.

And so, regardless, it's trying to look beyond that ask of, you know, we need to look at a financial metric, or we have a goal for headcount and say, well, why? Why don't you have that answer already? And peel back from there. And that could look like, you know, elements of culture that could look like elements of your broader employer brand strategy.

But making sure we first understand what that solves for is kind of the exciting part of those conversations.

Leandra

And why is that so important, Joey? And I should say I love collaborating with you. You and I have worked together, kind of fleshing out those issues. And you do such a great job. But why is it important? Why can't I just call you and be like, Joey, I'm, you know, revenue's down. I need an EVP, or I want to track talent.

Why is it so important to get to the root of the problem, and why? The bigger why?

Joey

I think there's inherently a comfort in pushing to the operational fixes. Right? You know, it's a number I can put to a page. It's a metric that I can change. And in the world of employer brand and culture, there's so much subjectivity, soft metrics, things that are intangible, that it can be difficult, frustrating, you know, maybe not as clear of a path when we look to solve for that.

So we gravitate towards some of those structural and operational, and financial things first. The reason we need to go deeper is because there's so much data that shows how your people, and that traditionally harder to measure space of engagement and culture and leadership, how much impact that truly does have on things like productivity and how that translates into customer success and customer satisfaction. Which then in turn do impact those operational and financial pieces, too.

But we can use the avenue of people to get there. And, I think that's been, for a lot of years, neglected. And we're seeing since COVID this resurgence and putting our people first and really trying to dig into some of those opportunities, for talent and leadership. And it's a great, great avenue to take if you want a sustainable solution.

Leandra

And you're having, talking about, you know, we're seeing an increase, right, in people. I mean, coming back, right, and wanting a refresh. So they've gone through the process. Why are you seeing all of a sudden an increase in people coming back, and wanting us to go through the process again?

Joey

I mean, aside from the general tendency to need a refresh every now and then, the last five years have been, we've heard the term unprecedented a little too much in the last five years, so maybe I'll use a different one, but we've seen so much change in talent, right? We saw a need to hire quickly. And there was so many organizations that couldn't get butts and seats fast enough.

And then we saw the drop off. We saw market changes, the great resignation, right? There was so many ups and downs over the last five years that the first solution most organizations went to was, how quickly can I be in market to appeal to my immediate challenge? Right. A survival instinct, if you will, on how do I solve this problem quickly and maybe in the process, it wasn't done as effectively or as strategically as it could have been. Not to the fault of any of those organizations, but just a matter of circumstance.

Now we're coming out the other side of that. Things are calming down a little bit, we hope, and we're seeing a real opportunity to go back and dig a little deeper into some of those challenges. And EVP is a great tool. It's a great foundational element. But taking that EVP out of the kind of survival, we need this to attract talent, or we need this as a stopgap for something, and having the chance to really take that and integrate it into the candidate and employee life cycle in a thoughtful, strategic way, I think, is where we're at now. And this resurgence of, you know, request and desire to go back and revisit employer branding, I think, is just proof of that.

Leandra

And I mean, the EVP is what your employees value most, right, about working at your organization. And I love, because I've spoken to even a few people this week that admitted to your point, when they developed their EVP years ago, that it was done quickly. Sometimes with just the executive team. Based on their assumptions of what people value most, and then admit that, yep, it was great. It was great for a one-time moment to increase awareness of our organization or to use at a talent fair, but now it's sitting on a shelf. 

And you mentioned, Joey, that the world of work and what we value as people about our work experience has changed so much since COVID. And employers are recognizing that we've got to do that check-in to ensure that people, we understand that people, what they value about the work experience has changed.

And we also understand that if we don't ensure that our employees are part of the process and that we are asking them what they value most, versus making assumptions, just the impact that can make on an organization by understanding that, by including all key stakeholders. I mean, we've talked about that in previous podcasts.

Joey

Absolutely. And the effort of building that EVP has, you know, at that point in time was very much recruitment-focused. And there was this push, you know, for the copy and the creative and, you know, the big Wow Factor of launching that EVP. And now what we're seeing is we want to go back, and we want to make that impact sustainable and longer term.

And that doesn't come from just the copy or the creative that comes from going that level deeper and saying, how does this change the way that our leaders behave? How does this impact the way managers are evaluated? You know, we've seen some really remarkable statistics lately around the impact that leaders and managers have on overall engagement of talent and how that impacts, you know, end metrics around customer success and productivity.

So, taking that EVP and using it to take you further, getting more mileage out of your EVP, is how I think about it, is kind of that next evolution that I think we're stepping into.

Leandra

I think it's important to share with our listeners what are we seeing as some common underlying themes. Because, yes, you're hearing the same requests from people, you know, who are reaching out to you. Joey, we need to hire people faster. Joey, we need to bring everyone together. We're transforming. We're changing. Joey, we need to keep the great people that we have.

But what are some underlying issues that you're seeing when you probe further on? What are those needs? What do you see given this, given the current state of work? 

Joey

Yeah, I think it's a great question. I have a lot of conversations that start exactly like you just said. You know, we want to connect great people. Or, you know, they think that they're coming in with one issue and conversation kind of unpacks it and say it's actually, yes, you want to keep your great people; however, the challenge has been, you know, maybe it's the managers aren't considered enough in the experience that they create.

And so we've got these employer brands that are built for talent you don't yet have, right? That focus on external of new talent. And we forget about the talent you already have and the way that they're included in your employer brand, not just in the development in terms of coming up with the EVP, but in how that EVP is lived in and experienced day to day.

And so sometimes that's really the underlying issue, is we aren't engaging our existing workforce enough day to day, and we're trying to repair that with a one-off, you know, campaign or initiative versus something that really has staying power. Sometimes we come in, and we talk about driving awareness in a new market, and we think that that's going to be through, you know, just a standalone campaign.

Again, yes. But there's other avenues of that. Okay, where have you tried and maybe not been as successful? Or how are you leveraging more than just your creative components to increase that awareness? What's your involvement look like in your community? How are you, again, engaging your existing workforce to be more vocal? Sure, a voice comes up in those conversations, right?

So there's always a little more to it than just the need for a solution or a specific set of deliverables. I think the other piece we're hearing a lot right now is leadership. And well, leaders are tired. It's been a busy, busy five-plus years of change. And the mandates have just grown and grown and grown. So having a solution that solves for what is keeping them up at night, for what is on their plates, that's where employer brand really, I think, has the room to stretch and grow.

That's where, I think, there's been a bit of a limitation on the understanding of employer brand and what it can impact. And that's the other piece: how do I get my leaders engaged? How do I get my leaders to care about this? You know, I'm drowning, and I need support from my leaders, but they just don't care. So I need to keep it, you know, I need to keep it light. I know I don't want to jump on anyone's toes, or I'm trying to dance on eggshells to keep this, you know, very tight and under wrap, when in fact you want the opposite. Like, you really want to take this work and show the impact that it has to some of those big-ticket items like engagement and retention, because those are costly challenges if they're not solved for.

Leandra

Yeah. And what I love, Joey, is it aligns with when we actually start to work with those organizations, what we're seeing is alignment often comes up. So there's a lack of alignment from kind of top to bottom. We're also starting to see psychological safety be impacted. And you kind of said that where people are fearful to speak up, they don't want to lose their job, they don't feel right. There's that, which impacts trust. So those all kind of align with what you're seeing as well. 

So, considering those are pretty big issues, plus the multigenerational workforce like there is a lot of things happening in the world of work. So there's a lot of underlying issues behind those. How do you share with executives when you go in, and you're talking about this work you've been brought into in, you know, an organization, and you're dealing with skeptical executives who are like, why should we invest in this?

Why should we prioritize this over investing in the customer experience or, you know, investing in our product? Like, how do you deal with that skepticism?

Joey

I mean, it happens more than you think. I think there's kind of two sides of this fence. There's, it's being driven top down, and you've got that, you know, early buy-in or you don't. And in those instances, it's really our responsibility as the experts in this space to make that connection and help kind of hear out those leaders on why there's this disconnect or why perhaps this doesn't either excite or drive what's on top of mind for them.

And so that's really on us to kind of educate. And I think that's where the world of measurement and metrics have come so far, is employer branding, you know, used to be very heavily focused on number of applications, number of career site visits. Right? A heavily TA-dominated metrics. And while those are still in there, we're seeing so much correlation, and we're able to now measure and quantify and track return on investment in areas like leadership and culture and reputation, and the ultimate impact on customers. 

That conversation alone, I think, has changed the way that employer brand is talked about in those spaces and in those rooms, because it's no longer just how do I fill open roles, and I don't need employer branding right now because we're not hiring, to this shift that now we're sitting in that is my employer brand is a living, breathing part of how our organization makes strategic choices to influence those elements I just spoke about. And I think that connection and that conversation is really how we bring leaders in, especially at the executive level. It needs to matter to them. And instead of pushing up this, you know, look at what we did, and you should care about this, and, you know, we've done this big campaign, or we've launched this big EVP and look at how great this is. It is, but I challenge our clients to think in the opposite direction. Instead of showing and proof of work, how do you bring them into this matters to you and this work is solving for you, or this work is impacting the way that you operate or how you interact day to day, or some of the challenges that keep you up?

And I think that shift in thinking, that shift in the conversation, we're seeing a lot more of. And it ultimately is bringing leaders into conversations to say, I had no idea that our employer brand had this impact. I had no idea that our reputation stemmed this deep, and it impacted, you know, X, Y, Z. And those are really the exciting moments from our side of things when we get to say, yes, and let me show you. And this is why. And let's get curious about it. And let's dig into it. And let's build something that will solve for that long term.

Leandra

I love that, Joey. When we're recruiting right now, and I had a really good conversation with the candidate this week. And when I asked her about the, you know, how do you deal with people that are skeptical, she also added to it and hence the title of our podcast. But this isn't an add-on, right? This is fixing. Our work fixes problems that you have, that exists today. And when you focus on those problems, Joey, like a lack, an erosion of trust. When people don't feel like they can speak up. When people aren't productive because they're not aligned or clear on where the company is going and what they need to do.

If you focus just on those alone. How have you seen our work directly impact those areas? Building trust, making sure employees feel like they have a voice and that they know where they're going? How can employer branding impact that?

Joey

Oh, in a multitude of ways. And before, I want to jump on something you said there, around why? Why are we doing this? And I think that question, again, hence the title of the podcast, if we're at the end stages of either a decision, or a body of work, or a change, and that question is still asked, we aren't solving for the right problem.

We haven't yet cracked what that right problem is. And measurement, to answer the second part of your question, is a great way to call that out early on and make sure we're aligned and clear on what we're solving for. Because we've seen things, right? 70% of employee engagement is driven from direct management, like we've seen stuff like that.

Right? And so when we look at the impact of strong trust and leadership alignment and buy into this process. We've seen increases in eNPS that have jumped huge. We've seen impacts to turnover rates, which are costly. We've seen impacts to customer success scores. We've had clients that taken this work into their physical spaces, into the stores that interact with customers and really brought it into, no, this is the way we work.

I think our my favourite thing to hear when I talk to our clients is that we make choices around this work. This isn't copy. This isn't just, you know, something we did back in 2023 and haven't looked at it since. But we make strategic choices around this when we put a stake in the ground and say, this is what we offer our talent, and in return, our talent is engaged and productive and excited and, you know, whatever it may be.

And they make choices around that. They promote leaders because of that. Executive leaders exhibit behaviours that align to that. New talent who comes into an organization knows how to exist from a culture perspective in the organization because it's clear. It's clear what that value prop is, because it's more than just the words on the page. It's the lived experience.

And I think that the ultimate measurement is being able to look and point to the choices you make and tie it back to what you've committed to from a brand perspective.

Leandra

And if you are involving every key stakeholder in this process and understanding, kind of, what they value most, that's what I love about the work we do, because it really, I feel, Joey, is that missing piece. As you say, leaders, they're tired. We need to partner with our teams more than ever. We need to be partners as the level and expectations of organizations keeps on increasing.

So to have a strong partnership, we understand from the very top as leaders, middle managers is who I'm talking about, we understand from the top and from the board what they want; financial, financial, financial. For us to partner and collaborate with our employees, we really need to have in our toolkit, this is what we need from you, and this is what we're our promise to you, right? This is what we're going to give to you. 

So it's such a critical tool for high-performing organizations and to build that trust. 

When you look back, Joey, on, you know, all the great conversations you've had over the years. All the different, you know, although the problems that we're solving are very similar client to client, there's really, you know, there's common themes across industries and clients, but the way we approach the work is different.

What lessons have you learned along the way?

Joey

First lesson is involve the right people right away in this. I'm going to call it problem-solving. I'm not even going to call it a body of work or a project yet. So that when we go back to identifying what we're solving for, the why of something, having the right individuals around the table for that diagnosis will get you to the answer a lot faster.

And not being afraid to kind of look a little deeper. Again, I think just a matter of circumstance in the evolution of employer brand as a whole, there's been almost this siloed approach to solving for attraction, retention, culture, leadership. They're independent owners. And something that I think is a wonderful aspect of how we work at Blu Ivy is we bring all of those individuals together right away, and try and flush out what that is that we're solving for. And so that would be the first thing. 

The second is sustainment. And I say that not generically. I say that going slow, doesn't, isn't the same thing as simplified. When we look back the last couple years, and we're talking about getting into the market quick, finding quick solutions, that go, go, go, survival state, we forgot how to really set ourselves up for sustainment.

And part of that is the measurement and being able to track how we're doing. And part of it is saying, we can't solve for all of this right away, and that's okay. And I think we think it needs to be really slow and long-winded in order to have success and quick wins. But it's not. It's those little moments, right?

It's that way that manager spoke to their new hire. It's the interaction that you had with somebody during the process. It's, you know, ten years into your tenure, that conversation that you have when you're, you know, there's a reorg. Like all those little moments, our little fibrous parts of, you know, they say culture is, you know, all those ‘some of many.’

I think the same sentiment applies here. An employer brand it's not one big boom, wow, look at what we did. Yeah, there's a lot of that too, and it's fabulous when we get to do it. But I think it's the smaller individual moments that create that sustainment and momentum that prevents you from having to come back to this in 18 months, saying it didn't land, it didn't stick, we got to start over. Because we see that a lot too. We see it done quick and rushed and not involving employees and not involving well-rounded perspective. And that might get you the end result in the short-term quicker. But it really isn't going to help from a sustainment and long-term perspective.

Leandra

So at the end of the day, Joey, by the way, have loved having you and definitely want you to come back because I know you just have so many great conversations, and I love the work that you do initially with prospects, trying to figure out a solution that makes sense for them. Is at the end of the day, Joey, it's really important that people take the time with the right stakeholders to understand the real reason, the why, what is the overall business problem that we are trying to solve?

Joey

And being open to the solution might not be linear.

Leandra

Joey, I always like to ask before because we have you here. What are some of the things that you're seeing in the future? What are some of your predictions that you have an employer branding an employer? 

Joey

Employer branding as a whole?

Leandra

Before we close it out. Yeah. Like anything? Yeah, in the next, in the coming years.

Joey

Yeah, I think if I had to place my chips somewhere on the table and employer branding as a whole, I think there's less of this focus and employer branding on like the marketing component of it. I think there's going to be a lot more flexibility in employer branding. And when I say that, I mean it's not, your employer brand isn't just going to be the way that you show up in market.

I think we're going to see a lot more of your employer brand is the unseen things, the less flashy things that almost feels exclusive. And we're starting to see that, you know, we're the best kept secret of our region, or we want to be the best kept secret of our region. I think there's something there. I think there's something really incredible about, yes, you want that awareness, and you want everyone to know, but I think in the future it's a little bit more of that, like quiet luxury sentiment around employer brand. That it's how you show up in your community, how you show up for your talent, right? How you show up to your customers. I think it's going to be a lot more personalized as a result of that, and it's going to be that, you know, less.

We say all these great things, but do we live up to what we don't know? I think we're starting to see a shift, and I think it will only get more and more as we go, that it's really about, if you know, you know.

Leandra

I love that, I love that. And if you're being true, yes to who you are. I love that.

Joey 

And that's the thing. If it's authentic, it will come out. People will know. Not to say you do not need awareness as a part of your strategy, but just not relying so heavily on the messaging itself, really relying on the experience and the commitments that lie behind it.

Leandra

I love that. A great way to end. Joey, thank you so much.

Joey

Thank you for having me. This was too fun.