Beasley Equine Podcast
Welcome to the Beasley Equine Podcast, where horse lovers, riders, and industry experts come together to explore the fascinating world of equine care, training, and culture. Hosted by passionate equine Veterinarian Dr. Travis Beasley, each episode dives into the latest trends in horse health, innovative techniques, and inspiring stories from the saddle. Whether you're a seasoned competitor, a backyard horse owner, or simply captivated by these majestic animals, join us for practical tips, expert interviews, and a celebration of all things equine. Saddle up and tune in—your next great ride starts here! New episodes every Tuesday!
Beasley Equine Podcast
Heart of a Horseman: Rick Jackson Reflects on 75 Years of Horsemanship and Education
Rick Jackson takes us deep into his remarkable 40+ year journey as a cutting horse trainer, revealing the fascinating transition from agricultural education professor to championship-level horse trainer. Having grown up with a father who was a renowned figure in the cutting industry, Rick brings a uniquely multigenerational perspective to the evolution of western performance horses.
The conversation explores Rick's unusual career trajectory, including his time riding bulls on the Midwest rodeo circuit during his college years, before ultimately returning to his true passion of training horses. His academic background became an unexpected asset, providing him with communication skills that proved invaluable when teaching both horses and riders. "I'm a better educator and communicator because of my teaching background," he explains, distinguishing his approach from his father's more technical style.
We journey through the transformation of cutting from a general quarter horse show event to today's highly specialized sport, with Rick providing fascinating insights into how horses themselves have changed dramatically. "Horses are better bred, more intelligent, easier to train, and more athletic," he notes, explaining that horses he competed successfully on decades ago "probably wouldn't win a dime today." Rick also addresses the evolution in training approaches, with today's slower, more methodical development of young horses contrasting with the rushed timelines of previous generations.
The episode concludes with a heartwarming reflection on Rick's greatest satisfaction at age 75 - watching his amateur students achieve championship success after years of dedicated coaching. His recent students have reached world champion status in both sorting and cutting, a testament to his lifetime dedication to horsemanship excellence. For anyone interested in western performance horses, Rick's insider perspective offers invaluable knowledge from one of the industry's most experienced trainers.
All right, rick Jackson, thank you for taking the time to come and talk to us. This is probably the fifth or sixth time I've seen you off a horse in the past 12 years.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, it's not often During the day, at least.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can move that mic a little closer if you want. So you are cutting horse trainer.
Speaker 2:Well, let's call it horse trainer.
Speaker 1:Horse trainer.
Speaker 2:Specializing in cutting horse. Okay, I like that Cow horses.
Speaker 1:All right, put that in the notes, john, and you've been pretty much your whole life exposed to this right.
Speaker 2:Yes, I grew up in the business. Dad was a horse trainer and he made me go to college, got a master's degree in education, in agricultural education, taught school for five years and got the opportunity to come home. He was getting older, needing to slow, way down and quit, and I took over the business back in the early 80s and I've never looked back, never regretted it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where did you teach it? Right here at eldorado and ag teacher and ag class school ag teacher in el trino did you like that or not?
Speaker 2:I did um, the, the rural students, farm students, which you get. Most of it's an elective program. We're better than teaching just run-of-the-mill English math. Probably wouldn't have been a teacher if I had to teach that stuff, but the ag students were very good. I just could not see myself as a career school teacher. I got the opportunity to go home. I jumped at it, took it, never looked back but it's been a great asset to me in teaching both horses and people because I have a lot of amateur riders that come and get lessons and learn how to ride better and learn how to handle cattle on horses. So I think I'm a better educator and communicator because of teaching background.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and how many years did you say you taught?
Speaker 2:Just five.
Speaker 1:Five, and that was all in El Dorado.
Speaker 2:All in El Dorado. Well, I was in the extension service Illinois Co-op Extension Service for about a year and a half Okay, Running a 4-H and youth program up in Franklin County in Benton for a short time. But they got the chance to come to El Dorado to take over the teaching job and took it and and went home and started training horses and people yeah, were you still riding during those teaching days?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, would go home, uh, help dad of an afternoon still showing a little not nearly as much as we do now, but yeah, I've never not been involved with riding and working horses yeah, and then you also rode bulls uh, yeah for a while yeah, was that in high school or afterwards?
Speaker 2:no, that was actually afterwards. I guess it started when I was in a freshman. In high school dad put me on a big old steer, you know he put it. We tied a rope on him and anchored him where I could get on him and I tried it.
Speaker 2:Dad used to rodeo a little bit. He rode saddle broncs a little bit and roped, but not a lot, just a little. He was too busy to follow the rodeo trail but I wanted to try it so he helped me and then for several years I didn't really pursue it until I got into college and late in my college life I ran into a young fella here from here in southern Illinois, rick Murphy. That was already riding bulls some and he and I got together and I started traveling with Rick and we rodeoed all over the Midwest. I didn't travel a lot and we didn't do like the PRCA or the bull riding programs that they have today. We did a lot of open rodeo stuff and the IPRA, which is more centralized here in the Midwest. So we traveled quite frequently rodeoing on weekends.
Speaker 1:Was there more rodeos back then than there is now?
Speaker 2:Yes, In the Midwest area there were.
Speaker 1:And more bull riders.
Speaker 2:No, there's plenty of bull riders around today. The high school program has created the interest in rodeo, created the interest in rodeo and we still work with a lot of the high school kids who want to get better and get more points in all around, so they want to learn how to ride and show a cutting horse, which keeps me in contact with kids that are bull riders, barrel racers, goat tires.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:In order to get more all-around points for all-around titles, they can show a cutting horse. So they want lessons and lease a horse and go show in that level and some of the kids have actually bought horses to go compete. One young lady in fact she's coming to the barn tomorrow bought a good show, mare cutting mare made it to the national finals and she's coming for a practice session before she goes to the national final.
Speaker 1:Where's the national finals this year?
Speaker 2:This year it's in Rock Springs, Wyoming. Okay, it usually switches from Rock Springs to Gillette.
Speaker 1:That's what I was thinking, gillette, yeah.
Speaker 2:They go there, they switch off, but this year it'll be in Rock Springs. In fact, several years ago I had a fairly large group of high school students who were involved with the cutting and the extra points and we took five high school kids with horses to Rock Springs to show in a cutting competition. Uh, they weren't great. I mean, you get out there and you run into the top young people from Texas and Oklahoma, california, that ride and show cutters all the time. Like my daughter, hannah grew up riding and showing cutters so we had one girl make the finals. The rest of them weren't good enough to make the finals, but we were there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's exciting. Let's talk about your dad for a minute, because he's a pretty well-known name in the cutting horse industry, correct?
Speaker 2:Right, well, both Aqha and cutting. Because when I was growing up you didn't have all these segmented programs. You didn't have the ncha and the uh rain and horse association, the nrha, uh, the barrel racing associations. Everything you did was at a quarter horse show. You showed cutters, you showed your reiners, your pleasure, horses, alder everything was at an aqha show. I couldn't remember when I was still young we would go to do coin to a quarter horse show in order to show cutters and it was late at night, early morning sometimes because the cutting was always last.
Speaker 2:But now it's become specialized. So now most people you don't even have cutting in a quarter horse show anymore, although you do still have the junior and senior world championships with AQHA out in Oklahoma. But things are much more specialized than they used to be. So when I was young, growing up, dad would we'd load up and take a load of horses and show in halter and pleasure reining and cutting, and I'd help Dad in the cutting pen because he didn't want to show anything else but cutting horses.
Speaker 1:That was his passion.
Speaker 2:That was his passion. I showed reiners, western western pleasure horses and then became specialized as program, became more specialized, right, but dad judged a lot. That's where I got my desire, I guess, or the influence, to go judge.
Speaker 2:He judged more quarter horse shows than anybody in the country for two, three years and as a cutting horse he judged the major fraternities, went overseas and judged in foreign countries as a cutting horse judge so very well respected, well known, when he was still active, and he took me to my first judging seminar that NCHA put on back in the 80s and I got my judge's card and I've judged a lot ever since too.
Speaker 1:How do you become a judge? Is there somebody? Is it like a test?
Speaker 2:Yes, you have. Well, in NCHA and I don't know about the other associations, but in NCHA you have to have shown as a competitor and won a certain amount of money before you're even considered a judge applicant so that you can prove that, yes, I know how to ride and show a horse and I know what's involved in the arena. And then you go to a judging seminar which is sponsored by the National Association, ncaj, and we have a director of judges who's in charge of those programs. He oversees the whole judging program. He puts on the clinics. You have to watch video, you have to pass judging tests, study rule book and, you know, achieve a certain score on a judging application testing and all that in order to be become a judge. Then we're rated.
Speaker 2:The beginners are one a's that just start and have only judged a few shows. And as you advance and prove that you can judge, you move up in rating. So you go from 1a to 2a to 3a to 4a and right now 4a are. You can't really call them the elite group because there are several of us, but we're the people who have judged enough to have certain number of credits and do a lot of shows and prove that you can judge. I'm a 4A and they intend to even take it on up to a 5A at some point in the next year or two, but right now the bulk of the judges are 3A and 4A.
Speaker 2:Now if you get in trouble, do a bad job, get written up by contestants, you can be dropped in a rating and then you have to judge several shows to get back. But it's a very and all shows are videoed. Every ncha show that's approved is videoed and that gives the contestant and the judge something to look at if there's a question, and then it goes to the national office and they look at it, decide whether you screwed up or not, and if you do good, you keep going that's how you get in trouble, if you right if, if you miss calls, uh, you don't do a good job, or say you used to judging was well you placed your.
Speaker 2:You know, in any association when it's starting out, you have top trainers who compete with each other.
Speaker 2:You may have some guy who gave his buddy the win to get the money when he didn't deserve. It Used to happen, along with a lot of other things about rules and regulations that we have now. But this new monitor system that they call it, everything's videoed and if a contestant doesn't agree or think a judge did a good job, he writes him up, sends in a request for the national office to look at it and then they make the decision whether he did it cost money to do that. So if a guy's just mad about the way the judge placed him and he wants to spend the money because the cuttings is kind of a rich man's game, so to speak, a few hundred dollars to protest a show is not much to somebody. That's a millionaire, right. But if the national office upholds protests and the judge gets penalized. If they don't, if they say, well, this guy didn't do a bad job, he didn't miss that you thought he did, or he placed them about, right, that guy loses his, his money, and you go on.
Speaker 2:So there's a check and balance system right in ncha to make it fair, and it really has yeah you can't judge you, you can't give your buddy anything, and you better be on your toes and not go to sleep sitting up there and miss something if you want to do that.
Speaker 1:You got to go in congress, right they'll nail.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they'll nail you for it. But anyway, I got a lot of my my early experience from dad and then of course he retired and quit, but he judged a lot and I've judged a lot. I've been overseas myself, right I. I've been overseas myself, right. I've been to Brazil a couple of times judged national shows down there. I go to Canada almost every year once or twice to judge up there. I enjoy it. I like going to different parts of the country to see people and horses that you don't normally get to see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, who was riding in Brazil? Was it Brazilians?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was Brazilians.
Speaker 1:I've heard they can ride.
Speaker 2:Well, there are a lot of Australian and Brazilian people who come up here and stay because there's more money, but they have family, brothers, relatives in Brazil that maybe came up here and learned the business and went back to Brazil.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:When I judged a big age event in Brazil a couple years ago in the spring, there were relatives of people that I knew from up here that stayed up here and showed. So it's tough, it's as good down there as it is up here. There just isn't as much of it I got you and the money is not as yeah, it's um.
Speaker 1:What does a big show pay like if you win, for instance?
Speaker 2:well, if you go to the big faturity which is our elite program, there's like a million and a half added money and you'll have six to eight hundred horses enter that maturity which runs for about three weeks. The winner of the of the open futurity can win 230 to 40 000, but that's the exception right. A weekend show, uh, at ducoin or shelbyville or or wherever you go in the midwest, it's based on the amount of added money there might be in that show and how many horses in a class you can win anywhere from 500 to thousand dollars in one weekend class, if it's a fairly big class.
Speaker 2:now we pay on average we pay one for three. So if there's nine horses it'll pay three monies. So three of them are going to win money. The other six have paid a $300 to $400 entry fee and come up with nothing. So that's why it's expensive and horses are not cheap.
Speaker 1:No, no, which I? Know you work on most of them, right yeah and um, I do want to talk to you about your barn that you train out of um, there's probably not another one like it in the country not, not that we know of.
Speaker 2:Every time we my wife or I do a video of a horse or of a exhibition, everybody knows immediately where it's from, because there's not another structure like it, right, dad? Dad built that barn. He wanted to be able to ride full-time and train, so he built that in 1958 wow is the age of that barn and it's a unique structure. It's an old Quonset style, uh, and there are a lot of those around, but not of the size and scope that this one is Right.
Speaker 1:And did he build all the rafters and everything?
Speaker 2:He and a crew built them right there Wow is it the first indoor in the state? Well, right here in this area in this area there there were a couple of smaller barns that were done like square post bills now okay but they weren't very big.
Speaker 2:You know they might be, excuse me, 40 or 50 feet wide and 70 or 80 feet long. Gotcha and ours is 70 by 100, the actual working area, and then there's cattle pens on the back side. So it was the only way dad could figure out to get the width and the size that he needed, and back then it was a pretty big barn. We used to have a lot of little shows in the spring, in the late fall, when you couldn't ride outside. Now it's pretty small. I wish it were much bigger, but I can still do everything I need to do.
Speaker 1:Right, it's unique yeah, how tall is it? It's about 40 feet, yeah it's, it's impressive yeah so, um, when you took over the business side?
Speaker 2:because recently I took over this business right I went because your dad used to work for my dad.
Speaker 1:Yep heard lots of stories about your dad, but one thing that's eye-opening to me is the whole business side of it. Like if being a vet full-time is busy enough, but then you got to manage the people, manage the payroll, manage the bills, manage the taxes. Everything was that. Did school prepare you for all that with the ag business degree or well, it helped.
Speaker 2:But you learn so much from your parents, from you learn from your dad. I learned from my dad, uh, and then you. A lot of it is trial and error and Dad always told me you know, you work hard, you do the best job you can and don't slight your work effort on your horses and respect your customers. And that's worked through the years and that's worked through the years.
Speaker 2:Dad was not the greatest people person when it came to coaching someone. He could train a horse to do anything. He was great at it and he taught me a lot. But I've seen people confused because Dad didn't understand why they couldn't understand what he told them to do to get a horse to perform like it needed to and that's where I credit my ag teaching didn't understand why they couldn't understand what he told them to do Right To get a horse to perform like it needed to and that's where I credit my ag teaching background and the whole teaching experience. I can relate and convey what I'm trying to get across, maybe better than he could, so that made a difference.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you just learn by doing it. You know, and I do the same thing I've got. Mine is is more feed, I've got to have enough hay and grain and enough labor to maintain the business and you got to have a little help, have some riding help, because you can't ride them all. We've expanded that. When dad started, when he built the arena, he had 11 stall barn. That was all he had. And then late in his life he wanted to expand a little bit and when I was getting ready to come home we built a big outdoor arena. We added more stalls and we got 35 stalls now and that's still not enough.
Speaker 1:We have weekends you've got a waiting list, don't you?
Speaker 2:oh, we've always got a waiting list. Yeah, we, we haven't even got through all the two-year-olds yet for this year that are on the list.
Speaker 2:But uh, we just just work at it as many as you can we ride on average uh, 20 to 25 horses a day, and because we have a certain number of older, what we call weekend warriors that are trained horses that only need to keep exercised and work once or twice a week to have them ready to show. Now, like we had a show at Duquoin two weeks ago, right before that show I had six head of weekend horses come in to be tuned up. The people came with them, hooked up their trailers, stayed overnight, stayed two or three days to get in the practice, because I have a good cattle supply so they get the opportunity to work cattle. So it'll it'll fluctuate, right, but you always need more stalls than you've got. But you just you learn over time and experience how much feed you're going to need, how much you got ahead of time, uh, how many cattle you need. I keep on average, 100 head of cattle there all the time and that usually works adequately to have cattle, because some guys don't even use cattle.
Speaker 1:Some guys work the flag, some guys work buffalo I've heard of that is that because they're, they're well last longer yeah, uh, you can work 10 horses on one buffalo.
Speaker 2:The problem and that buffalo will get hot and he's still going to hang out. But you let him stand a couple minutes and go work him again. But they're not like cattle in that they're faster, for one thing, and I myself can remember ruining a couple of pretty good young horses trying to make them work a buffalo that was going too fast and they never stop. If you get away from them they'll stop, but if you're trying to work them, they're just constantly moving and they don't move like a cow. So you can use them to your advantage. They're great for starting colts because when you step to one in a pen it'll move. It's your goal to react and move, but it's not like having a bunch of good cattle.
Speaker 2:Most amateurs have trouble working buffalo to prepare them for showing them. So the flag helps. Uh, they can learn to get their seat when a horse stops. Ride them through turns, because it's all repetition. You can stop the flag at any moment if somebody's out of whack or needs some instruction. Here and there we're in. A cow's not going to stop, no, they're. You've got to keep working, but cattle are still the best that there is to work a horse and teach an amateur how to handle like yeah, and the flag is what?
Speaker 2:just a mechanical device that we've developed and there are all different versions of it. You got an old flag on a string. Started out with cutting a bicycle in half many, many years ago and putting a cord between them. You know, run it however long you want to run toward around one wheel and other wheels wheel's over. Here Somebody cranks the pedal. That's how the flag started. We have all sorts of mechanical devices based on golf cart frames that will move across the pin stop and turn remote control. There are new ones that are mounted on tracks that have a cow body that pivots and turns as it flexes and moves across the pen. All different versions. The more intricate they are, the more expensive they are.
Speaker 1:I was going to say that that one sounds expensive. They are. How do you control the flag at your place? You got a remote.
Speaker 2:It's a remote. Yeah, it's all electronic. There's a box on a wall that you can set the speed and you control it with a hand-controlled thumb device.
Speaker 1:So if you're there by yourself, you're controlling the flag and the horse.
Speaker 2:Right. Most amateurs don't want to do that because they don't feel comfortable trying to work their horse or ride their horse or work the flag. So I work it for them.
Speaker 1:Gotcha.
Speaker 2:And I can work on any specific problem they may have it's stopping on one side or being too short or not sitting down in their stop. You can work and work and work, because it's all the same as any other sport. You learn by practice and repetition.
Speaker 2:The more times you do it right hitting the baseball, shooting a basketball it's all the same thing yep but the only thing you're doing is you're throwing the horse variable in there and you have to learn to feel what your horse is telling you without thinking about it, because that's it, but it's still.
Speaker 1:It's repetition and learning yeah, and it all happens pretty fast. It looks like it happened pretty quick. Every time I see you guys do it, I just think of there goes a horse, I would land in the dirt it can't happen and I even have it within my sets of cattle that I work.
Speaker 2:I have certain customers that I won't allow to work what we call a really fresh, fast cow, because they can't ride it, they can't handle it, they probably would fall off or get way out of balance. So I have them work slow cows to get their confidence up. Learn to sit their stop, learn to kick with the right leg at the right time. It's all repetition, right, and those people that are advanced, advanced, that can show you know they, uh, they'll go work fast cow, tough cow. Normally when you go to a show they're going to be fairly quick and rapid. Or we study cattle at a show to try to decide which cows are the best to work, which ones are going to be crazy and run like geese balls or which ones are quiet and don't want to move much. When you want your amateur to work, right, but you can't show your horse on a slow cow, right.
Speaker 1:Checks and balances again. Exactly yeah, let's move that mic a little closer to you.
Speaker 2:Oh okay.
Speaker 1:So one thing I've noticed is you're the same age as my dad, right? I'm 75 yeah, I think he's. He was born in 47 I was born in 50 okay so he's older than yeah you just gotta make that point clear. But you're still in really good shape and going strong. Yeah, you're one of the hardest working people we work for.
Speaker 2:More than a lot of people. There are a lot of people my age and older that still show cutting horses. Most of them are amateur non-pros that only do it part-time. There aren't too many people still really active and I feel fortunate to be active, be able to do what I can do at my age.
Speaker 1:Do you have any secrets?
Speaker 2:No, Well, I think working outside, staying physically active, I've never had any major difficulties. You know I've got arthritis and the same problems old people have.
Speaker 2:But by being active physically I think it helps you maintain that ability yeah, and that's same thing with horses too yeah, exactly there's, I think it's dr tracy turner always says that he's our aap president motion is a lotion for equine joints well, to a point, there are some horses that have been used hard enough as they got older that they just simply can't go anymore, and you see some of those, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:I remember Dad always talking about one of the first A lot of it was racehorses when he started in the early 80s and then it kind of transitioned to these quarter horses, western performance and he always tells me one of the first rope horses he worked on was like a 17-year-old gilding and the guy wanted to do everything he could to keep him going and he was thinking why does he want to spend money on this old horse?
Speaker 2:Well, I know, because I have a brother-in-law, several family relatives that are involved in rodeo and roping. They like those older horses, they're solid and consistent. There's there are people who are open on horses that are in their 20s oh yeah and they, they keep them going because they're.
Speaker 2:It's hard to replace them. Yeah, uh, and it just seems that a lot of the older horses in the roping world keep going. Yeah, I think mainly because you know, when you consider when they go, stop once to stop a cow and a cutter in a cutting run may stop 20, 30 times or more and it's just physically more demanding, I think. Right, it's the difference probably. Yeah, but yeah, I know the ropers like those old season rope horses that are still halfway sound yeah, and there's.
Speaker 1:There's so much more that we can do to help them stay sound than there was right.
Speaker 2:Rainers are the worst I guess you know. You go do a power stop and you ask that horse to get on his hocks and slide for 20 or 30 feet. It's got to be tremendously difficult on the joint.
Speaker 1:Yeah, five or six years old is old for a reiner.
Speaker 2:Right and a cutter, simply because they're doing a lot on their own. They'll go, run and stop and they're controlling themselves and they'll do it pretty hard. But it's protective in a way, because that horse is doing it and you're not forcing something on him.
Speaker 1:Oh, that makes sense. And well, it's just like any other athlete, I mean, every athlete's career has to come to an end At some point.
Speaker 2:We got a couple old war horses turned down at home that have been there and done that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I've unfortunately had to make some kids and parents cry when I tell them that you know. But it's true, we can only do so much and I try not to waste anybody's money.
Speaker 2:Well, in the cutting horse world, just go find another horse Right. My daughter Hannah has shown successfully since she was a little bitty kid and she's 23 now. We have managed to keep her mounted on a good, solid show horse that she can compete on, and she's had. She had one old gilding that you've worked on and helped her with a lot, uh, and he made one a hundred thousand and so she retired him. So we had to go find her another horse. So it's a continuous process.
Speaker 1:He's earned his retirement. I love that guy and he still loves to cut. Does he?
Speaker 2:I could put you on him right now, right out in the arena, and he'll go cut a cow. Oh, that'd be fun. You probably wouldn't be with him. No A couple of thirds, but you know he's an exception, but there are some older horses out there that are still very competitive. Yeah.
Speaker 1:What isn't quote unquote older horse in the cutting pen, that's going to win 17, 18.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of good Gildans. We don't ever ride mares that long because we start breeding them Right but there's a lot of older Gildans that are 17, 18 years old that are very competitive. Yeah, no, no, because they go to the breeding barn right and there's pretty hard to ever see a stud out there more than maybe eight or ten years old.
Speaker 2:It's a rarity if there's one beyond that so do they go make their name, and then make their name young and then just go to the one autumn as you can and go to the breed and then the more money and more points and everything the yeah, the more money they've won, the better record they have, the more mares you points and everything. Yeah, the more money they've won, the better record they have, the more mares you're going to get to breed. Higher the breeding fee you can ask.
Speaker 1:Right yeah. So one thing we work on a lot of here is the team sorting.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And that is. Is that relatively new?
Speaker 2:Compared to cutting. Yes, it's a newer type sport that is extremely popular here. Everywhere I go to judge even, I talk to people in the show secretaries, the arena help, because you're not really allowed to discuss and talk a lot with the contestants when you're judging. But everybody has sorting activity and we we're very, very active here. And it works well with the cutting horse program because I've always got two or three horses in the barn that assorters bought that they want tuned up a little bit, because most of the sorting horses today were started as cutters and maybe for one, one reason or another weren't as good so they didn't go on in the cutting world or they they had say they aged out.
Speaker 2:We have a lot of of shows for young horses, cutters at three, four, five and six year olds. When they turn six a lot of people want another young horse coming up so they're ready to sell that six-year-old even though he's a pretty good horse, so a sorter may buy him to sort on. So I get a lot of those in to teach them the sorting game because it's a little bit different. And of course recently we had a lot of success from right here in southern illinois customers of yours and clients of mine who went to the world sorting finals down in fort worth and did fantastic.
Speaker 2:We had two, two teams that were world champion teams yep, right here in southern illinois right here from southern illinois and and we've had other people from this area who've had great success there. But there's a whole set of sorting shows, just like the cutting shows. There are more of them. It's a very, very popular sport. A lot more people put on sorting activity.
Speaker 2:You can go every weekend to a sorting. It's less expensive. To give you an example, if I go show a horse at a weekend cutting, it's going to cost me minimum probably $300 to $400 entry fee to go show that horse. Now I might have the chance to win $700 or $800 or more if it's good class and I do my job and the horse works good, or more if it's a good class and I do my job and the horse works good. You can go to a sorting competition and you can sort all day a dozen times or more, three or four different classes for that three or four hundred dollars yeah now you're not going to win as much, but you get to play and enjoy the sport and it's a.
Speaker 2:It's a team sport because you have two people sorting all the time, and now they have three-man sorts and different versions of that, but it's extremely popular because it's a little cheaper and people still get to go work a cow on a horse. Yeah, that's what they love. Every time we have someone come into the barn who wants to learn to ride better if they can ride at all the first thing I do is put them on a horse that's trained enough to work a cow, because they make you learn to use your legs and your balance, and once they've worked a cow on a horse, they're hooked.
Speaker 2:They just love it, whether they can afford it or not. They go to the sorting pen or they go to the cutting pen, but there's just something about working another animal on a horse that is so attractive to people and they just love the thrill of it.
Speaker 1:So is team sorting maybe the gateway drug now to cutting? Yes, is it? You get kids in there like that.
Speaker 2:People who maybe can't afford to cut and we have a lot of customers now who have gone from sorting to cutting. They've bought, they may own a sorting horse and still go sword, but they've bought a cutting horse so they can go cut and they just love it. But there are a lot of people who buy that sorting horse. It's a family event. They can buy one horse and the girl, the, the daughter, the brother, the dad, the mom can all ride to one horse in a different class and have a lot of fun with it for a lot less money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when you do a cutting show, for instance with one horse, how many times are you showing that horse or how many rides you get?
Speaker 2:Depends on the horse. Our classes are based on the amount of money a horse has won. So if you have a really good what we call an open horse, say he's won $20,000, $30,000, $40,000. He's only open for one class, the open class. That's it. Now if a non-pro amateur owns that horse, then they could show it in the open non-pro and I can show it in the open. If you're riding a young horse that hasn't won much money, there are three, four different levels that you could show that horse in, and the client or owner could too. So part of our classes are based on money won on the horse. The other side is for the amateurs and the non-pros. They have limits. We have a 2,000 limit rider class, open to anybody that's not won $2,000 in cutting competition like you would be.
Speaker 2:That would be me, and then we have like a $15,000 amateur, so anyone who hasn't won up to $15,000 can show in that class. When you win more than that, you go out. It goes all the way up to $50,000, $100,000 amateur and an open non-pro which is open to anyone on any horse in a non-pro Open the same way. There's no limit, but it's all regulated by the money you won either as a person or as a cutter.
Speaker 2:We also then have aged events. I spend time training young horses up to their three-year-old year to cut. Your new protege, jenny, owns one that I'm training right now to make for her.
Speaker 2:And there are there. You always have three-year-olds in your training program. Those horses will be shown this fall as three-year-olds only against other three-year-olds, so other horses are eligible. Then we have a four-year-old class, so those three-year-olds move up to the four-year-old next year and then it goes up to five and six and there's a major show coming up in Fort worth called a summer spectacular. That is for those four, five and six year olds to show. Of course they throw in weekend classes too, but it's all very based on money, one both on the rider and the horse yeah, how do you think horses have changed since when you started training?
Speaker 2:to now Tremendously. Horses are better bred, they're more intelligent, easier to train and they're more athletic. I have horses when I first started that I trained that I could go win on regularly. That probably wouldn't win a dime today because horses are better trained and they're more athletic in in the skill level that they have and they're probably more intelligent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like it when the horses come in. You can see their wheels, wheels turning um it's.
Speaker 2:It's changed a lot and it's much, much tougher. The show business now. If you're not really doing a good job and have a well-trained athletic horse, you might as well stay home. Yeah, just donate your money. You're donating your money.
Speaker 1:How about the horse's toughness? Do you think they're more fragile than they were, or the same?
Speaker 2:Well, we went through a phase where we bred away from bone and structure and we had issues health issues, lameness issues but we kind of got that fixed and people realized what was happening. And then they started going the other way and breeding for more substance, better bone horses that hold up, better.
Speaker 2:It's not as bad as it was. Yeah, they're. You know, dad when he was was training, he might get a four or five year old that might have been broke to ride but he'd never been started on cattle and it was a little tougher to do that. And now we get them as two-year-olds and we just bring them along slowly, take our time, watch their knees and their hocks and all stifles and all those kind of things. But we get more time to train. Dad might get six months to finish a horse to go show him. I get a year and a half. Yeah, it's, that is different and you can take your time with those young horses.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's important. A lot of the trouble we see is the ones that they push way too hard.
Speaker 2:And we push we probably push the cutting horses. We show them as three-year-olds Barrel horse. People don't do that. They don't show them until they're four, Right, so you know, they don't ask them to do those hard things. There are probably lots of young cutters or horses trained in the cutting program that never. They get lame. Yeah, they don't ever get to go any further, and a lot of them you can get turned out for a year or so and then you go back to riding them, but it becomes sword and horses right or brood bears, yeah, exactly yeah, we've seen.
Speaker 1:we've seen our fair share of those. What's the? If you think you've probably owned a lot of horses, is there a couple that stand out like you wish you still had, or the best ones?
Speaker 2:Well, one of the first horses I ever trained and talking again about something that I could win on. Years ago and we're talking about mid-'80s okay, a customer brought me a little mare that was by Pepinita. A lot of people in the business they don't even know who Pepinita is. Matlock Rose hauled him and won the world on him. He was a great show horse and I had this mare trained her. She was a good mare and she's the one probably I could go show her today and couldn't win a dime on her, simply because of her style, but she was super cow smart so she allowed me to show her successfully and her owner uh, she was one of my favorite horses because she was one of my first. Uh, I've had Elaine and I own two studs. Uh, one of them was a horse we called Joker, which you would have known Joker, and then his full younger brother called Haida, who was out of a hide, his little pet mare, and several years ago I trained a smart Chickalina stud for some customers and he was a really good horse.
Speaker 2:His name was Smart China Lena. I showed him successfully for years and years and a lot of our breeding program was based on him for several years that's the one you guys got.
Speaker 1:You guys called china, right, yeah, that was the china horse.
Speaker 2:And then elaine had some good young mares. The hyda mares won and we raised several good colts that would have been full brothers and sisters. And the two studs, joker and haida, were great show horses and one of them we had one of them passed on. The other one's still alive and I could go win on him. You know you can go mark four or five on him because he had the style and the strength and he was one of my favorite horses because of his ability. And, of course, china the the dad was was a great horse too. And then there's been some other horses nothing that I've owned recently that stand out, but I've had customer horses that turned out to be really good that I could go win a lot of money. The customer some of them, would show them to, some of them didn't care, they wanted me to show them. They love to go watch their horse show and right.
Speaker 1:So there, there have been several of them through the years yeah and um, you guys have raised a lot of babies too. Yes, we um. Darla Bill Womack, the world champion, you helped. Yeah, that little baby. I mean we were there the next day and then just to watch that thing, I mean, it's just natural.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, she's out of one of those two brothers the height of stud and uh, we, I guess I'd have to say we haven't ridden very many of his Colts because Elaine has sold the ones that we raised. Uh, but uh, yeah, uh, yeah, there's, there are several of them still coming along. That'll be for me to ride one of these days if I, if my 75 holds up for a few years, I think it will.
Speaker 1:Um, what about? Um? We talked about some of the theing Everything's videoed. Now, for better or worse, I mean, we're videoing right now the Western I don't know how to say this like the Western world has become popular in the media.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:There's one show in particular, Yellowstone, which we talked a little bit about. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that, because you grew up in the real Western world. The horse world, the horse world, versus what is being portrayed on TV, now that a lot of people that haven't been exposed that's their only exposure to it.
Speaker 2:Well, of course rodeo right now, which is part of the horse world, is extremely popular because it's a spectator event.
Speaker 2:Cutting is a difficult event to promote to the general public because there's a lot of downtime and it's a technical sport. If you don't understand what you're looking at, it may look cool but you don't know how the judge is marking that run. It's a little difficult for people to grasp Rodeo. You watch some guy kick the heck out of a good bronc and he's going to score high, so it's easy to see Fast calf rope and run is easy to see. Yellowstone really helped and Taylor Sheridan has become very active and involved. Has bought a couple of our major cutting horse locations in Texas from the money he made from Yellowstone. But he's promoted the Western sport to another level.
Speaker 2:I'm not a great fan of Yellowstone itself. I love Kevin Costner and a lot of his movies, but there were a couple of episodes of Yellowstone itself. I love Kevin Costner and a lot of his movies, but there were a couple of episodes of Yellowstone when I watched it in the past that I wasn't particularly fond of and it kept me from pursuing it and watching it, like some people just live to watch that.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, all week. Oh, Yellowstone, I think it was Sunday nights.
Speaker 2:Just an example One day I was traveling, we were going to a show in Florida my wife and I I had on a shirt T-shirt said Yellowstone on it.
Speaker 2:Somebody got it for me Went to a gas station, walked in to get a soda and a snack and this lady just like to fell over because I had a shirt that said Yellowstone on it and I had a horse trailer out in the lot with horses in it and she said, oh, are you part of Yellowstone? No, ma'am, I have a T-shirt. But that's the excitement that it generated and the Western lifestyle. And even one year at the Big Futurity, which is our major event, they have a celebrity night and this thing runs for three weeks. So one night they have sports figures. There are several major football players who own cutting horses and show successfully.
Speaker 2:One night they have TV personalities and they had half the Yellowstone crew there and they mounted them on cutting horses and let them go compete and show. It was. It was pretty cool, you know. But and those people tried to portray and this one boy that that one of the shows I didn't like, when they taped him to his colt a colt made him try to ride it forever and ever was there competing on a cutting horse in a different venue. So they've helped promote it too. But, um, and Yellowstone also promoted the reigning industry a little bit, but it's still a different lifestyle to get into it in the daily basis and learn what it takes to compete. But Yellowstone did promote the Western lifestyle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it was super. I've never seen a single episode have you watched? You've watched a couple.
Speaker 2:Just a couple, several years ago, and I wasn't impressed and I don't follow it.
Speaker 1:My dad was the same way. My mom didn't know much about it so she bought like the whole DVD set. I think he watched one episode and never touched it again.
Speaker 2:Oh. I have customers that just swear by it. Yeah, they love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the that just swear by it. Yeah, they love it. Yeah, the only thing I know about it was there was an episode where they gave a horse a shot of banamine in the muscle and even though it says on the bottle, so all the vet clinics were taking their opportunity to use that to educate, bash it a little bit. Yeah, I guess we bashed it. So you have trained a lot of champions, people and horses. What would you say is your favorite part of your job?
Speaker 2:Well, now used to. I never missed a show. If there was a show within 300 or 400 miles, I was gone. Trailer load of horses going and showing and I've won well over a quarter million dollars in money in the cutting horse industry. There are a lot of guys who've won a million.
Speaker 2:Two or three million that show with the age of advance where there's more money to be won. When I was hauling and showing a lot, there wasn't as much money available to win and I didn't travel as far, but I still went a lot. Now I enjoy helping my customers. I may go to a show and only show one or two horses, but I may have 10 customers there.
Speaker 2:This happened to do corn the other day. We have a class that a bunch of beginning amateurs that I school and give lessons to. Nine of the 11 competitors were my customer and I get a great thrill out of helping every one of them try to show that horse and they're all. They all work well together. Nobody gets mad at anybody right and a couple of them won a lot that weekend and they're very supportive of each other. So now seeing those customers go win and coaching them through a run is my favorite part now.
Speaker 2:And I still love riding young horses and training them. I got a couple of pretty good two-year-olds there at the barn right now that you can tell that the feel and the desire and the ability is going to be there, and then you get on that one that doesn't have that oh well, I got to work this horse right. The other three you look forward to working because it's still fun do you work those in a certain order?
Speaker 1:do you just?
Speaker 2:it kind of depends on how the help gets them ready.
Speaker 1:Oh gotcha, whatever one, they've got ready to work and right now it's extremely hot.
Speaker 2:We have to be. I mean, we let the cattle out by noon or before. You cannot work horses on cattle and the horses are going to get hot and stressed so you have to be careful how hard you work them. So we start as early as we can and work the ones we need to. You work them. So we start as early as we can and work the ones we need to, and then I go to the flag because you can work a young horse on the flag, so there's no cattle involved. You can work on the technique stop the turn, how they handle themselves, how they handle the bridle hit them a lick be done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's part of the program yeah, so you had the four people I know, your wife Elaine and Wild Bill Womack won the they won the Masters Championship at Fort Worth in the RS&C finals. Yeah, and the future Dr Buchanan will be joining us.
Speaker 2:Jenny and Tommy Perkins showed in what is an intermediate level, because RS&C also rates all of their riders by number based on your success in the sorting pen. And they sorted because you have to advance. You know there may be 750, 800 teams in the beginning of a class. One class sing, runs forever down there. They have to advance to the second level and at the third level and then to the finals in order to win. And they did that and they, they were successful.
Speaker 2:Also, and you know, tommy's got three horses elaine, my, my wife I never won one of them for him she coaches Jenny and her mom, amy and Elaine found those horses for them and you know you kind of got to know what it takes to win, okay, and then you got to know what kind of horse you need and how it fits the owner, yep. And to have two teams in two different classes go to the world finals where there are thousands of people, be successful, was great. And then another gentleman, craig shaw, who's one of those clients who's gone, both cutting and sorting, sorted earlier in the week in the uh gosh, the western heritage, which is just another class in the rsnc schedule, and he got two or three checks in that division.
Speaker 1:So it was we did great from our part of the world right, and those are people you've helped and helped train their horses. So how did that feel when you got the call or the message that they extremely exciting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's good it's. It's just gratifying, yeah, to know that what you're doing with your amateurs is working right. We we had a lady to go along with that. The very next weekend elaine gets home from the world sorting finals and her championship and we had the weekend show at ducoin. One of our customers who we found a horse for. She's been showing now for probably a couple years and she had the best weekend she's ever had. She showed four times in two different classes. She showed twice in the 50M and twice in the 15M. Won all four classes Marked good scores. There are variables, you know. Drawing good, drawing up early. There are variables, you know. Drawing good drawing up early. Where the cattle are still good are are influences on how you do. But she had by far the best weekend she'd ever had.
Speaker 1:So the cutting carried over from the sorting, I guess to the successes because, uh, we got a group chat with everybody that works here and your daughter works here, hannah, and when she texted that elaine and bill won, like I was so happy for amazing because I had a small part in that, just working on their horses yeah, you keep their horses sound? Yeah, we try and then when she messaged that jenny and tommy won, because tommy just started sorting what three years maybe yeah, so he's relatively new pretty new and I, uh, I texted and jenny too.
Speaker 1:Jenny's not really been sorting, not at a competitive level right, she's been busy with a little bit busy with vet school you know, and on top of that, the lady that won at ducoin, uh, ray williams.
Speaker 2:You know ray because you're working on his horses. Ray bought a really good gilding recently that I have shown successfully. But he's young and inexperienced but I can show him well. Ray has trouble showing this horse and if you show, if you do a bad job of showing a young horse, you create problems. But showing a young horse you create problems.
Speaker 2:So Ray has the opportunity to buy what he needs to win. So we had another horse there. That was a seasoned, finished horse, still good, that Ray could show and which the one really good horse is still in. He's still in rehab right now. Can't show him anyway. So we got ray, this other horse, and he and he uh won three checks over the weekend at ducoin. Ray is a new beginner at the cutting. He's only been cutting a few months and ncha has a program where if you win over a thousand000 in cutting competition in the show pen, you get an achievement buckle.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And there's 1,000, and there's 2,500, and there's 5,000. We have other customers who've won way more than that, but Ray won enough at Ducourne the other day when Christina had her great weekend. He also got three checks and won enough to get his achievement buckle. Some people ride for two years to try to win.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And he did it in about two weekends.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was in not long after that Was he Okay. And I think Hannah came out and we all congratulated him. I was like I heard you won a buckle. That's what they tell me.
Speaker 2:It's not an easy sport to learn. I mean some people, and granted Ray has sorted enough that he's learned how to handle cattle better. He's not a great rider. You know.
Speaker 1:He makes mistakes riding and showing his horse, not sitting his stop when he should or kicking too quick, but this horse takes great care of him, yeah, and goes ahead and gets him through the run when he makes little mistakes and that's allowed him to win yeah, I love those horses that do that like we um sponsored some youth rodeo kids and they're all most of them are riding pretty seasoned horses and I asked them all, like you know, they taught you a lot, and they all just say their horse has taught them so, so much, which I mean. When I grew up, team roping it was the same thing we've got on horses that knew the job and to build the confidence what's the best way to learn?
Speaker 2:yeah, you can't learn on a young horse that doesn't know if you don't know. So when we have a new customer come in, we don't put them on some green coal, we put them on an old, season finished horse that knows what to do, and then they learn a lot from people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is there some riders that you've seen or helped coach that are just maybe a natural talent?
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, yeah, I've had people that I simply couldn't help well enough to make them a winner. They didn't ride well enough, their mental attitude wasn't proper. They get frustrated or they get hyper or they lose focus, and no matter how long you teach and work with them, they just can't get it. And then you have those that learn very rapidly and, like Ray, was extremely successful and he's only been cutting a few months and now he's got an achievement buckle. I've got customers who've tried for two years to win enough money to get an achievement buckle and they can't hardly win a dime, so just the way it goes.
Speaker 2:Now, one thing I will add about the high school rodeo kids, when we were helping a lot of them all they'd ever done was calf rope, team rope, barrel, race, go, tide, go, go go. They didn't learn a lot of good horsemanship skills, and all of their parents said when they started learning how to sit and ride a cutter, nearly every parent said my kids are really learning how to use their legs and their balances better. They're better horsemen. Yeah, so they they learn from that yeah, it all kind of ties together and we still get that.
Speaker 2:We get somebody that that comes wants to learn how to ride better. Uh, that's, the best way to do it is go get on a horse and handle cattle yeah, I texted tommy after he won.
Speaker 1:You know, I think I said a text like you know hey, congrats world champ. And he was like man, this I can't believe it. Like I think I'm gonna wake up from this dream. And I just texted him back.
Speaker 2:I said tell me you got good horses and you've worked your ass off at it. Yeah, he's there to practice all the time. Yeah, you got to give him credit. He and Jenny and Amy, all those people are there. Well, craig was there today.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:You know they come and practice, they get. Who was there today? Yep, you know they come, practice they get to work cattle. But I can tell over the years of experience helping all these people what little thing they're doing wrong to help them be better, be more successful.
Speaker 1:It just shows up almost immediately yeah, and it's the, I guess the old saying practice makes perfect to a point but it also the uh. The other thing is practice makes permanent. So if somebody's going out and practicing, if there's not somebody there telling them, like you know, you need to tweak this or that, exactly those bad habits they don't realize they're making these little mistakes.
Speaker 2:a lot of people are one hand dominant. They ride better with one hand than another and it shows up almost immediately when they go to work a cow and their horse and if you haven't been to a lesson in a while, you can get your hand. One hand's down here and one's where it needs to be.
Speaker 1:And they don't realize they're making these little mistakes and as soon as you point it out and oh yeah, okay, now I remember, and then they go do great yeah, it's just like some of the I don't want to say bad horse shooers, but some of the shooing we see come in here and then the people will tell us oh, so-and-so has been shooing for 30 years. They're the best. I. I in my head I combat with uh, I've been playing guitar for 20 years.
Speaker 1:I'm still terrible at it because nobody taught me properly right yeah, so the that's the practice makes permanent thing for me well and you know pleasure horses, rainer, barrel racers.
Speaker 2:You're dealing with you and your horse and when you throw that cattle variable in there you've got to practice a little to understand how to read what that cow's telling you as they move around the pen and then apply it and also do your horsemanship skills right so that you can handle that cow on a horse that's trained to do it right. Tommy, you mentioned tommy. Tommy comes and I pick at him constantly when he's there.
Speaker 2:Practicing makes him do better yep and then he'll go have some success and he comes back and yeah, tommy, you're screwing up here and there.
Speaker 1:Just get this right yeah, but that that's how you learn. I mean, even Tiger Woods has a golf coach, Exactly Like. I mean, it's just you got to put in the work and you got to have a nice horse these days.
Speaker 2:Well, true, and it gets more expensive the further you go and the further we get into it.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know I used to buy a good sorting horse for ten, twelve thousand dollars.
Speaker 1:I thought that was fantastic.
Speaker 2:Now you better look at 25 or 30 right they even start.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, plus. I mean that's the cheapest part of owning a horse.
Speaker 2:Is buying it probably right exactly, but beat bills and vet bills, get the rest of it yeah, and entry fees yeah, yeah but it's. It's very gratifying. When it works right and you have that good run, you can win. It doesn't matter if you win $10 or $1,000 or $100,000. It's still a win and you still did things right, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the fun thing about this whole. And even in the vet side, like just when I see the horses that we've helped go on to win, like it makes me feel so good that we've given them the best chance, I would agree.
Speaker 2:We've got to have you guys.
Speaker 1:For necessary evil. Well, Rick, I think that's going to wrap it up.
Speaker 2:All right, well, I've certainly enjoyed our conversation, yeah thank you so much.
Speaker 1:I know you're a very busy man with all those cows and training people and horses and I I really appreciate you sitting down to to talk and it's it's really hot outside, so it's it's nice to be sitting in here this afternoon instead of trying to work a horse right, so all right. Thanks again, rick, and for those of you that tuned in, uh, take care of your horses and yourself, and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 2:Bring your little black bag with the medicines and bring the trank and the crank and the pen.