12. Gravity Parks and Questions About Mountain Bike Suspension

A technical glitch got us on the last episode! 

While visiting the San Lee Gravity Bike Park in Sanford, North Carolina, we recorded a spontaneous segment about the fun that is gravity parks. We discuss some gravity park basics, and why no jumping is required - just control your speed.

We also do a deep dive on mountain bike suspension inspired by a couple of questions Kristin spotted while scrolling one of her favorite mtb-related Facebook groups. We review basic terminology and setup including how to interpret the travel numbers of your bike, how to set the sag, and how where your ride, how you ride, and even how much you weigh can determine the right amount of suspension for you.

Listener feedback gets Kristin rolling on another pet peeve – male riders who feel the need to comment on equipment, or ask questions such as "did your husband bike you that bike." As Steve says... "don't be that guy."

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

This is Kristen.

SPEAKER_03 0:05

And I'm Steve, and you are listening to the Cycling Together, a show all about bikes, riding, and riding together.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

We're back in the home studio.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

Okay, back in the home studio after a couple of uh weeks away in our mobile van studio.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

And then a week of recovery. And so we're back in the home studio, but we do have some content to share from our trip. Tell us a little bit about that content, Steve.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

While we were on the road, we stopped at a um self-shuttle bike park, we're gonna call it. It's a gravity park. So it had downhill trails, but uh you had to ride yourself to the top. There were no there were no there was no lift, there was no um uh person using their pickup to shuttle you to the top.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

It was just Wait, that's a thing?

SPEAKER_03 0:49

Oh, absolutely. So some one of the places we were gonna go was Rattlesnake Park, which is a new park in South Carolina. Okay, and they're only open on weekends. Okay, but the way you get to the top is you put your bike on a on a um trailer, I think it is in their case, and they drive you to the top.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Dang it.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Yeah. I know. Okay. So I know we missed out on that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

That's that's pretty awesome. Yes. I was calling this a self-drive because I had to drive myself to the top. You didn't like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

You mean ride yourself to the top? Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Yeah. A self, you know, self-shuttle. Self-lifter. That's what it's called. Okay. Fine. I think you're making it up, but that's fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

Yeah, so um, and so we recorded those with new Bluetooth mics um in the van, sort of on the spot, in the parking lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Yeah, we wanted to get that like you know, what did we think of it right now? Because we knew we were gonna leave and get distracted with this stuff. We also wanted to try some new equipment. Yep. I think you sound better than I do, and you can tell from it's probably microphone placement. So we'll figure that out. So the audio quality is not as good as we like, but we thought the content was good. So why don't we flip over to the case?

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Yeah, so we'll we'll be um, yeah. So here's that. Here's that.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Where are we today?

SPEAKER_03 2:02

We are at the San Lee Gravity Park.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

In North Carolina.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

North Carolina. I think it's in Sanford, North Carolina. It's about 45 minutes south uh west of Raleigh.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

And we're on our way to Raleigh, and we and I was looking for places to ride on the way. And um and this popped up, and it's um it is a little park. It didn't it it barely registered as a blip on Trail Forks. Um, and I I don't even think I found it on Trail Forks. I think it came up when I was looking searching for for places in North Carolina, right? And of course, just you know, you're swarmed with Western North Carolina stuff. And I think I saw a video of this on YouTube. Yeah, and I said, Where's that? Oh look, it's sort of on our way.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 2:47

And um, you know, this guy did an amazing little review of the place, and I I'm astonished for like a county park, a community park, what this is.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

It's first of all, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

They have dedicated mountain bike parking, they have uh uh dedicated mountain bike trails, they also have dedicated hiker-only trails, and then they have a uh self-transporting gravity park, yeah, self-shuttled, you know, eight self-shuttled a trail to ride to the top, and then you get to the top, and they have big wood structures on basically five different runs beginner, intermediate, sort of uh advanced technical technical and expert. And they were flow trails, they were made, they were machine-made berm, jumped, tabletop flow trails.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

And that's what we actually want to talk about today a little bit, which is so you want to go to a gravity park, and maybe you think of that as being intimidating. I'm gonna start with this is awesome. I wish we had one of these around us because yeah, just a local place to go to. A true gravity, not a true gravity park. The gravity parks I've gone to, you know, they're lift service. So, first of all, a little expensive to just take one run. Take one run, and I've dropped how much for a ticket. Right? So whatever you hate it. Um, it can be a little intimidating. Um, where this is, you know, again, DIY. You can go up once, you can go up what we did five or six times, and you're and you're kind of like limited by how much you're willing to pedal, right? I called it, I called it.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

I didn't find the climb bad.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

No, but I called it uh adult uh sledding, right? Because like you zoom and then you're uh back up, right? Like it felt very familiar. Just with gravity in general, if you're someone who hasn't tried a gravity park, whether it's something like this, something what do you what would you say is the first thing you would want them, a cross-country rider like me, to know or be prepared for?

SPEAKER_03 4:48

I would say most every park I've been to, even the biggest of features can be rolled.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 4:55

So um speed is not always your friend in a lot of cases. No, they often say, I know when we went to and you and no matter how good you are, you wanna you wanna you wanna get yourself warmed up on the easier trails.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Yeah, you want to do the easier trails. Number one is but I've also read it's like number first time you want to scope it, second time you want to ride it, third time you send it. Right? Like don't even if you are the most competent rider, like you, you still don't necessarily want to go full send the first time you go down.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

No, the trailer's gonna be a good thing. A lot of these were blinds.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Yeah, because you have no idea what what's coming. So scope it, ride it, send it. Um is number one. Yeah, a lot of it, I will say I don't jump. Um, and I think that is one perception is that you have to be able to jump. I can't.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

I am trying to get you off the ground, but we're working on it.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

I'm very gravity bound. Um, but but that's the good news is that you can scrub just about anything. I can scrub the speed off of anything. You are in control, yes, right? You are in control. There is nothing that says you have to go full set.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

What would you say are the skills that are most helpful to somebody riding out of gravity park for the first time?

SPEAKER_03 6:10

Whew. Um mine's gonna be level pedals. Oh, level pedals. That's true, level pedals. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Level pedals are essential.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Here's my question. I'm a left foot, front, right foot, back, level pedal person.

SPEAKER_03 6:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Do you swap? Because it gets tired. My right leg gets real fatigued after a while.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

You you asked me that and I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

You didn't think about it after I asked you.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

And I and I can't even think if if you put me in the spot, I think my left foot's forward. Yeah, but I don't I don't know. It just natural to me in that regard, in terms of like I'm not thinking about that. All I'm thinking, all I'm making sure is my left pedals are level, but that's it.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Yeah, and why do we want our levels pedaled? Our pedals level.

SPEAKER_03 6:57

Well, you don't want to clip a pedal on a feature. You know, that gives you the most ability to keep your legs, your knees bent, your body in a sort of a more crouched position, and you and you're basically in the middle of your bike so that you're prepared to do anything with your bike.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

I think that's the other thing. I was thinking about that, especially since again, I'm very good at flattening. Uh I'm very good at flattening a jump. Um everything is involved. Like I'm moving my arms, I'm using my arms as as you know, shock absorbers, my legs, my my butt, you know, everything. I'm absorbing it all, which is what keeps me. I know. Okay, how about like through the turns? Like what's the best, what's the best strategy there?

SPEAKER_03 7:44

Well, you that is also why you sort of uh work yourself up when you get to a park because you also want to know how the dirt is and what your grip is, and you might want to adjust your tire pressure, but you also need to, as you're banking through some of these very tight turns, you you need to get a feel for for how much grip you have and how you're gonna go around those corners.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Well, it's a good reminder too that when we turn our mountain bikes, we don't necessarily turn our mountain bikes as much as we lean the mountain bike. Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_03 8:14

Like, I mean, obviously there's a little bit of the these steep, these steep bank turns, you're definitely you wanna you want to really come into those with some speed if you can once you work up to that, yeah, and you are leaning into those um and just sort of feeling for that direction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like on road riding, when you're going around a corner, you might have that inside pedal up and the outside pedal down, and you're weighting the outside pedal, and you have the inside pedal up. You don't want to clip that. That's not that's not what you're doing in mountain biking, you're it's level pedals.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm telling you, I need to look or I need to start working out this leg more because today wasn't bad. We did five runs in each run, six runs, and and we barely did five, four and a half miles. So they weren't long. But on longer gravity trails, I definitely can by the after a couple of runs, I can feel it in this way in that bad. Yeah, you feel it unless you're in that lat and that's where that's where I'm asking. Like, do you switch? Do you switch? It feels like brushing your teeth with the wrong foot.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

I can.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Yeah. But like it it feels like maybe it's a skill I should work on.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

Well, only if you find yeah, what is interesting, I was saying to you, what's interesting about this like self-powered gravity part is the limiter is you're climbing.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

So you're probably not likely to get into a lot of trouble where you're at the top feeling really fatigued and about to do another epic long run because Well, there's short runs here. Well, they're short, but you had to get your ass up there. And so where when you go to Killington or Highland or anything, like you can be tired and you get on the lift and it can bring you to the top. And then you might be like, I might be a little tired for this. You know what I'm saying? Like the the self-climbing is a in itself it's a it's a safety valve.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

It's a safety valve, yeah, to not overdo it on the way down, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Yeah. Well, some of us have to be careful, you know, about the moneymaker. No, um, so we all have to be careful. Yeah, but you know what I mean. Like some of some it's I don't have as many skills as you that I can fake it when I'm tired of that. Got it. So I have to be. Yes, we all need to be careful. Here's a here's a question on gravity parks. Do I need a special bike for a gravity park?

SPEAKER_03 10:44

You don't, actually. And especially if you're if you're not, if it if it's just new to it.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:50

Right? I have gone to Highland and New Hampshire on my cross-country bike, my Spark. Um, and you can really send it on that. And because you're new to it, you're probably not gonna be doing as big a drops anyway. So this that's a it's a great place to put the O-rings down on your shocks and see how much travel you're using with each run. Okay, right? And you actually sometimes have to adjust your suspension for a downhill park that you otherwise just never think about touching on your normal, on your normal, you know, local trails. Yeah, sometimes slow down the rebound because you're gonna be hitting a lot of things and you don't want that, you don't want it to rebound so fast that you spring up, especially off of drops and so forth. You don't want that pogo stick effect. So sometimes you do have to adjust the suspension. It it can be helpful.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yes, suspension, which I do like, both of our bikes have the on-the-handle lockout, which is very nice on again this like self-propelled gravity park because you can open it up for the down and then lock it for the up for the up because you're definitely gonna lose traction. But besides the bikes, other equipment that I see when we go to gravity parks are full face helmets.

SPEAKER_03 12:08

Yeah, so full face helmets are becoming just so commonplace. It's I it's surprising me. Yeah. It's surprising me, but I mean it's obviously a smart idea.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Yeah, well, so one of the things is I did go rogue on you and bought a full face helmet recently, and your first reaction was it's heavy. I don't remember how much it weighed. But what do you think? Well, if you're buying a full-face helmet, first of all, full face helmets are you don't necessarily want to wear one all the time. They're they're hot. Right? So if you're doing just cross country, you don't necessarily need a full-face helmet. The benefit on downhill obviously is it's gonna protect more yeah, protect your face. Um but how heavy is too heavy.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

I find it just tough on my neck. So when I suddenly have this weight on my head, um I can't do more than a few runs before I'm like everything is sore because it's just so heavy. That's why I just don't like wearing them.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:09

Um, but that's that's just me. For even some even the beginner trails, let's just take I can have some of the the best fun on those because they're just super flowy. And as an expert, you tend to go faster, and then they still include, they still include jumps, like tabletops, that you can absolutely launch if you're going fast enough.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

And they're beautiful. I will say, even as I say I am not a jumper, there are moments where you just have a little bit of speed, you hit that little poop up, and you realize you and gravity are not working together anymore. And it's super fun. You can float. That's how I still have to do that.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

And that's the more.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

I do kind of want more. I want it to, but I want it to just happen like that. Like those are my favorite. When I feel like I'm thinking about it, and I'm like, I can't jump, I don't enjoy it as much. But there are moments, as you said, even on the blues, the greens, you know, where you hit it just a little, not hit it, but you're just going up it, and it's it's it's not like a natural jump. It's designed to get you into the air. So it does. You just kind of float. It's a moment of flotation and then down, and it's it's a beautiful thing. It is a beautiful thing. Let me just say, gravity parks definitely push me because I am I am I am gravity bound. They push my comfort zone.

SPEAKER_03 14:36

They do, but you seem to love them.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

I do really like them. I do really like them, and I guess that's what I want people to come away from this, is that you don't necessarily need to be hitting the big jumps. You don't have to hit any of the jumps. You can have a lot of fun in a gravity park and and and never leave the ground. I wish we had a park like this. I wish we had a park like this around us because what's so cool about it is like I think if we had a park like this around us, I would be here regularly and I would be practicing and thinking about doing jumps because they're designed, because you can get used to it. So um, yeah, good job, North Carolina. Yeah. This is this is a good park. And we're back. All right. Yeah, so I don't think that'll be the last we talk about. Um gravity parks. Oh no, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 15:27

We have a couple trips planned this year, and so we'll be definitely talking about going to Gravity Park, what to expect, your first time at a park, things to look for, and all that kind of stuff. So that'll be on a future show.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Spontaneous. Our next segment we are tackling is a scene while scrolling. This is from there's a group on Facebook called Mountain Bike Ladies. We ride mountain bikes and drink tea. No, I don't know. And they always have great questions. So somebody posted this, and I thought it would make a great topic for you. So here we go. I'm curious about what people refer to when they refer to bike travel. Um, I just got a Yeti SB 140, which to my understanding would mean 140 millimeters of travel. However, the front shock seems to have the option to be set for 150 to 160 millimeters of travel with the rear shock at 55 millimeters of travel. We're gonna unpack all that. So her questions are, what is the actual travel of my bike? I have a couple of questions of what she's talking about because you and I were just talking about a new mountain bike for me. And one of the things you were saying is that this new mountain bike would have less travel. She then says, How did these specs affect the sag that I should be shooting for? I want to talk about what that means to sag. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 16:46

Alright, so she said she got a Yeti SB140, which she thought meant 140 millimeters of travel. And she is correct when some companies do model names with a number in it, and this is for full suspension, they're always referring to the rear travel. Oh, okay. Because the forks can change. So while they uh I don't know in this particular case about this Yeti, but it may have a 150 millimeter travel fork. Okay. Right, not a 140. But when uh especially when they incorporate the the uh sort of a number like that into the name and they're referring to travel, it's it's for the rear suspension travel.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

So when she says her rear shock has 55 millimeters of travel, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:31

That's not correct. That's not correct. That is well let's un let's unpack that. Okay. So she says the front shock seems to have an option to be set for 150 to 160. That is um deceiving. So there are many shocks in the market that can be adjusted, but only through a hardware change. So a fairly involved process of removing the legs, changing out, in some cases like the the um the airspring on the left-hand side. So it's not just a dial or a knob, you turn and you're changing your travel. Oh. Okay. It's it's uh it's a process that usually that people can do on their own, but usually most people are having a shop.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

It starts at something. Correct. If you buy it, it's 150. But if you wanted it one, it could be comma 160.

SPEAKER_03 18:24

You need to buy it apart for that.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

And we're talking 150, 160. That's how much it squishes up and down?

SPEAKER_03 18:31

That is how much exactly. So that is how far the the the fork travels from the from the from the very extended point. Yeah, and you're not actually riding at its most extended point, and we're gonna talk about SAG.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

You mean when it's just sitting there on sitting there in your garage.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

In your garage.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Fully uncompressed. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

That's all the way to where it it basically hits a hard stop at the end. That is the full amount that that fork can fork or rear suspension can push down. So now just to go to the the second part of her of her point here is the rear shock at 55 millimeters of travel. Rear shocks, they mount in two positions. Like there's a there's a bolt in the front of the shock and a bolt at the back of the shock, and that's how it mounts into your frame. And that's often called the eye-to-eye.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 19:21

Okay, so that's the total length of the shock uncompressed. Okay. All right. And then there's that part, just like a fork has, which compresses into the body of the shock. Right. All right, and that's and that's where you're sort of getting that compression and that travel. So in her case, she has probably 55 millimeters of travel in the shock.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

However, the way suspension frames work, rear suspension frames work, is they have pivot points, and those pivot points multiply the shock travel. So let's just say, just for convenience, uh, that it's a two to one situation. Okay. Right. In her case, it's probably it's gonna be like two point uh RSI, three point something. But let's just say it's two uh a multiplier or two. Okay. So if you had a shock that had fifty-five millimeters of travel, you would have 110 millimeters of frame travel because the the that's the multiplier that's happening in the pivots of the frame.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

She says, so her bike has 55 millimeters of travel in the rear shock plus whatever's happening with the frame itself, that's what's giving them the 140 number.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

Correct. Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

That's very exciting.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Okay. Okay. All right, so does that make sense? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

So that's the actual travel of my bike. Yes. How do these specs affect the sag that I should be shooting for?

SPEAKER_03 20:58

What is sag? So sag is when you're when you're sitting on the bike, and this is you and all the equipment that you're gonna be riding with. Okay. So if you ride with a lot of water and a lot of tools, and and you actually are adding significant weight, say a backpack, you wanna incor you want to put that on before you set the sag on your bike.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:20

Okay. And so if when you get on your bike and just the static weight of your body on the bike is going to compress the fork and the rear shock. Yes. Okay. So that is that is basically the sag. And so you would be adjusting the air pressure in your shocks to reduce or increase that sag amount. Does that make sense? So if you had if you had very low air pressure in your shocks, yeah, you know, you're forking your shock, then when you sat on the bike, they would compress a lot.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Yes. Okay, yes.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

Right?

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

And if you had really high air pressure, if they were overpressurized, then you sat on the bike, they would barely move.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

So you're seeking now, every every brand is a little bit different, but they're almost always very close to about 25%. So you want, if you had, like just say let's say a hundred millimeter fork on a cross-country bike. Yes. All right, for ease. And you're for math ease. Let's let's say it's a cross-country race bike and you have a hundred millimeters of rear travel and a hundred millimeters of front travel.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

Um, so 25% of that would be 25 millimeters.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

So when you sit on the bike, okay, you want those, those, the fork and the shock to compress 25% of that travel. So, and and they have little O-rings on both the fork and the shock, or sometimes markers, so you can see this. So you when you're when you're basically you're getting on the bike, yeah, right, and ideally you want to have somebody hold you up. You actually want to bounce up and down a couple times because you want to make sure you've broken through any just what's called stiction in the system.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Still not a word, but sure. Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:08

And and then sort of I like people to sort of be in that kind of stand-up ready position.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

I've seen you do this where you have someone, they have a new bike, and we go out into the parking lot, and you have they're not fully loaded necessarily because they've just bought the bike, but you're not.

SPEAKER_03 23:23

Yeah, sometimes I take that into account uh based on what they're wearing. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Um, and you have them, you hold the front wheel and you have them stand over. Okay. So in that loaded but not active, we'll call it position, it's 25%. Percent. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 23:40

Yeah. Some brands may be 30%. Okay. This is all a little bit of personal preference, but it's going to be in that range. Right. Right. You're not going to be. There's no bike out there I know of that's say 10% sag. And there's no bike out there that's say 50% sag. It's it's all in that roughly 25 to maybe sometimes 35.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 23:59

And so these specs adjust that to your preference.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

To her question, these specs don't affect the sag she should be shooting for. I mean, it's 25% of whatever it is. Whatever she has. Yeah, exactly. And then when you're actually riding the bike and you go over something big, maybe a big, like how much it shouldn't be it, you shouldn't be tapping out the full.

SPEAKER_03 24:25

Oh, so all right, well, let's so this well, the sag exists so that the frame that the shocks can uh uncompress when you unweight the bike. So when you basically um or think about it this way, when you're going in and out of say roots, the the forecast in the shock and the rear end of the bike have to be able to go down into that depression.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

Right? And so you can't just have compression only. The the the suspension needs to be dynamic up and down. And if you didn't have SAG, it just wouldn't, it would feel horrible.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

Um then and then just to just to go on for so where she had said her rear shock travel is 55 millimeters. Yeah. So that's when you're looking at that 25%, you're looking at that 25% of 55 millimeters.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Not 20. 25% of the basically the shock itself. Right? Like you're looking at the that's where the little rubber bands comes in to play.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

So in that case, the rubber you'd want the little rubber o-ring after you um, so you you'd weight the bike, you get on it, you set the o-ring against the shock body, right? And then you carefully so you don't don't compress the shocks anymore, yeah. Get your feet on the ground and unweight the bike, and then you've got that gap now where you can see how much the bike had compressed with you on it. Okay. So in 55 millimeters, what's 25% of that? Uh 13, something like that. Yeah, it's 14.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

But you're not like, are you measuring or is it more an eyeballing thing?

SPEAKER_03 25:57

No, you can actually get a ruler and measure, right? And I think a lot of shop guys just know what it looks like. Yeah, well, that's what I'm asking. We know what 25% is. You can you can work this and so you can play with your suspension and you can measure it to the millimeter. Oh, I'm gonna try 25 millimeters of of compression, I'm gonna try 26, 27, right? But uh most people are not gonna know if whether they have 25 millimeters of sag or 27, they're not gonna feel that difference. You're now you're talking fractions of percent.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

And there is a a third part of the to this question that she had, which was basically what's the right amount of travel for my riding, which she then tried to describe. But that comes back to our conversations, right? So I have a uh what do I have for a bike?

SPEAKER_03 26:53

So you were you have 135 millimeters in the rear and 140 in the front.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Is that a lot?

SPEAKER_03 27:00

No, that is that's mid-level, that's trail bike range.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

So what's the bike we're looking at?

SPEAKER_03 27:06

It has 120 front and rear.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

How is that gonna feel different?

SPEAKER_03 27:11

So this really comes down to bike kinematics, we'll call it. And the design of the bike.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Sure, it's making up words, kinematics.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

So you will see, you might see in a if you watch bike reviews, yeah. You really you you're often gonna hear the reviewers say, Well, this bike rides as if it has more travel, or it uses its travel really efficiently and well.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

Okay, so there are a lot of different suspension designs. It's fairly actually hard to get a bad full suspension bike nowadays. There are they are out there, but it's way harder than it used to be.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

Um, despite the wide variety of different designs.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:57

To the rider as well, both the rider's style, technique, and their own personal body weight.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:07

Okay. Um and and and again, the design of the frame and how it uses that travel. So there's this there's this thing called um progressive or linear travel on bikes. And you can with a linear travel bike, you can imagine if it takes a certain amount of force to compress the the shock, say 10 millimeters, it will it will take the exact same amount of force to compress more force to take it to 20, the exact same 30, right? But a progressive geometry, it as the shock compresses, it takes more and more and more force to get it to go another 10 millimeters.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:50

Right. Um, and so all of that, and then some uh and that and that doesn't isn't necessarily even throughout. So it can be a a bike could be um very low, lowly progressive in the beginning and then ramp up at how progressive it is as you compress it more and more. Yeah, so all of that has to deal with how the frame overall responds to you. Um, and that is why, in some cases, that you'll you'll find people say, well, wow, this 120 millimeter travel bike just feels so much more cushioned and controlled through all the big bumps than this 140 millimeter bike. Because it maybe that 140 millimeter travel bike just isn't really using its travel all that well.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 29:40

Right?

SPEAKER_00 29:40

I mean, there's not really a right well, not a right answer, but there are compromises when you pick more or less travel.

SPEAKER_03 29:50

But the bigger the hits you're gonna take and the bigger the especially the drops you're gonna take. So the more air you're getting and the more you're going off the ground, you definitely want to have more travel to cushion that impact on the bottom. And the more you weigh, the more you're gonna be putting force into that shock, and usually the more you want to you want to have um just more travel there in order to work with.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Right. And one of the reasons that we're looking at maybe less travel, that that you're curious how I'll feel about less travel is that I don't jump.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

I don't weigh a lot, right?

SPEAKER_03 30:33

Um, and so the upside could be that I have a bike that maybe weighs less too, than if I don't have a bike that's like built for more so the the more travel a bike has, the more the designers think that the person riding it is gonna be hitting harder and harder stuff. Right. So usually the burlier and beefier that frame gets. Okay. All right. So the shocks weigh more, often more pivot points in some cases. Okay. Um, they don't rely on what's called flex days. There's a there's more pivots in the back. And so the frame itself weighs more. They also the longer as you get as you go up and travel in the forks, in order to handle that compression in the fork, the forks have to get bigger. So like so Fox puts it right on their forks, right? Okay. So a Fox 32 has 32 millimeter stanchions. Those are the those are the upper tubes that the basically the forks compressing into. Okay. All right. That is only found on say 100 to 120 millimeter forks for cross-country racing or or for lighter duty.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 31:48

Then you go to then they had the Fox 34, which 34 millimeter, Fox, right? That and those forks will only go up to, I think now, uh, don't quote me on this, it used to be about they used to go up to 150. I think now you've reduced it down to 140.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:05

All right, that's the maximum travel. Okay. And then if you say you want a 150 fork, you have to go to a Fox 36, right? And then if you want something say over 170, 180 millimeters, you have to go to a Fox 38. Because they expect those, those are now taking, those bikes are going to take bigger hits, bigger drops, and they need to be stronger forks and stiffer. And so they have to increase once you when you increase the diameter of a tube, it becomes stronger and stiffer.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Okay. What happens if you have a quote unquote light duty shock and you decide to start sending it and jumping? You're gonna you're gonna can you blow out the fork?

SPEAKER_03 32:48

Yeah, you can do what's called out blowing out the the fork. Usually it's kind of blowing out the damper, and that can sometimes be from multiple hits of of going through the entire rate of travel and then bottoming out. Sometimes it can be just from very, very high speed impact compressions beyond what the fork was designed. Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

So we talked about the sag, but then there's the bottoming out. That would be the that would be the term for going all the way fully compressed.

SPEAKER_03 33:23

Yeah. And and that, you know, you're talking with like a say a fork. You're the way it works is basically a tube sliding into a tube.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 33:31

And when you pull the lower bottoms off of a fork, there's only two kind of one side's for your air, okay. All right, and one side's the the damper. And the damper is what it both controls um somewhat of your compression along with your air pressure that you set, and then also controls the rebound, how fast the fork um springs back out.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

All right. And those are these are very thin, spindly things. Okay. So you have a very, very thin shaft connecting the top and the bottom, right? And along with those seals, and that is all that's keeping those two things together.

unknown 34:09

Magic.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

So if you're saying if you if you want to go out and you did huge big drops and hits on a Fox 32, so not only are you gonna probably blow that dampener, right? You're putting a lot the fork is gonna flex inside itself. So you could also then risk bending things and you're twisting that whole fork, and that in itself can cause problems.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

In normal usage, you shouldn't be body bottoming out your fork. Like you're like, should you go, you know, it's 25% to start. Yep. Is there a point where you're like 80% not you use about 90%? Like, when does it when do you know your shock is not shocking enough?

SPEAKER_03 34:58

Well, so then you the a good thing to do is you have that O-ring on the one side on the one stanchion.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 35:04

Right. And you're using that to set the sag, but then, as some people call it the funnel meter, right? You're you can use that.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Funnel meter, is what you said? Okay, got it. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 35:14

So you're you're looking at that at the end of the variety to see how high is that on my fork? How much travel did I use? If it is all the way at the top, that meant at some point you bottomed out your fork.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

Now, if you go on a really rowdy ride and you say, I can't imagine hitting, dropping anything bigger than I just did, and your funnel meter is only halfway up, then it's probably you have too much air pressure in your phone.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Okay. Okay. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 35:42

If it's um if it's 90% up, then you're probably good, right? You probably it's right. And and I don't want to say you can't ideally on the biggest hit, which might happen once or twice on a really uh big ride you take, right? Yeah, and you happen to use all your travel, great, right? You are now using all the antenna travel that was there.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Using all the travel you paid for.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

Right. Yes. So I think you can see where I'm where I'm getting that there, where if if um but if you go out on a ride and just a casual ride, you know, or or I should say an average ride, yeah, and you don't say to yourself, well, I didn't I didn't do as big of a drop as I might do with this place, or I didn't really hit something as big as and um and you're going through all your travel, that is usually just I don't you don't have enough air pressure.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Well, there's my next question. You have to I know uh you have to pump up your shock.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

You do. To have to pump up my temperatures and have to pump up your shock. Your shock pressure is based upon the sag. Okay. So as we talked about with the sag, if if you don't have enough pressure, then then your sag is really high, and if you have too much, it's low. Well, you're setting sag on both the rear and the the rear shock and the front fork based on your weight. And and so you if you if you get on the bike and your sag is 50%, oh I need more air pressure. So you you add you pump up the the the fork, check it, check it again with a shock pump. With a shock pump.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

You can't use your I can't use my bike pump for this. Right. Okay, it's a special pump.

SPEAKER_03 37:18

And so you add more air, and you check it again, and you basically uh add more air, check it again, oh, a little too much, a little out, and you're fine-tuning to find that zag point. Um, you can do things in like a front fork, which is called um adding air volume spacers. Okay, so this is actually something that that people can do by themselves, okay, and on the um uh underneath the air uh valve on the top of the fork. Okay, um, you would let all the air out. Okay, you would you can unscrew that cap, and the you these take a special size socket and ideally a special socket, just you can you can use anything, but I you can really easily scuff and damage this nut on the top of your fork.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:08

So it's not recommended just throw an adjustable wrench on there, even though it can be done. Yes. Um, just be very careful if you do it. This is our way. And then and then a lot of forks actually come with just basically these little plastic bits and they kind of snap into each other. Okay. And you were you're just adding a couple of those and then putting the whole thing back in and repressurizing. Those are just taking up volume inside the fork, and what they do is they create more progressiveness. Okay. So if you're somebody like like say around here, we have a lot of roots and rocks, and you want the and you want the fork to absorb all these little bumps and stutters and everything, right? But you also go off of big drops and you and you don't want to bottom out your fork. So you might add more of these spacers to make the the fork more progressive. So it's still gonna be fairly um um uh responsive to this to the stutter bumps through the beginning of its travel. Yeah. But as it compresses, compresses. So you hit a big you bit hit a big jump, you come down, it's going through all of its travel. As it's compressing, compressing, it's getting it's now getting harder to compress, so you won't bottom out, which is a bit protective of the equipment.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

And it's protective of your equipment. These things are expensive. Um yeah. Uh we sometimes people come in with their forks and they're they're leaking fluid. Why are they doing that?

SPEAKER_03 39:36

Well, usually it's a case that you can see oil on the upper stanchion tubes. Okay, and that's just that the upper seals have failed. They've dried out, they've got a little rip in them. Okay, and so um, and those so that's a standard thing in a fork service. Um, if those are um if there's any indication that oil's getting by those, those are. Replaced.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Okay. How um how often do you have to have a fork serviced?

SPEAKER_03 40:05

Or both shocks? Both. Now there's I'm gonna say fox and rock shocks because they are on what 90% of the mountain bikes we see.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

There are others, but those are the two majority.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

And those are typically what they have called 50 hour service. Okay. So that's where they want that sort of lower service done where you pull the lower legs off. You're cleaning everything off, you're cleaning off the grit, you are cleaning the foam rings inside the seals. Okay. Okay. Um if needed, those seals are replaced. Okay. Um, and then uh re and then adding brand new oil to those forks. Yeah. So um and that just keeps them that keeps them fresh and and we'll extend the life of them. Is it is fifty hours a little bit too conservative? It probably is for m for most people. Oh, okay. Right. But manufacturers can't they they have to start.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

They can't be like, if unless you're a rider, but if you're this kind of rider, you're just gonna be.

SPEAKER_03 41:19

They can't do that. They have to give a number.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

And so that's Is there a condition that you that that's the right amount?

SPEAKER_03 41:26

Is it someone who it's muddy, it's dusty, is there a condition somebody says the more dirt that that is on the front of that fork that has to get basically wiped off by those wipers? And those those are there so that dirt on the upper stanchions don't get down into the fork and contaminate the oil, right? The more dirt that's there, the and the more you go through your travel more often, right, right, then the the the faster that fork will need service.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Is there anything day to day like let's say I want to wash my bike? Like, do I have to be careful about those stanchions? Like, do you there's nothing?

SPEAKER_03 42:02

Yeah, yeah, those scratch them. Back in the 90s, we used to have back in the day. We used to have rubber boots over those things to protect them.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Oh cute.

SPEAKER_03 42:13

And they gotta rid of the rubber boots at some point. Um people I you know, well, the rubber boots would rip and they'd sag and soft and they'd be anyway.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you're absolutely right. Because we have one downstairs, an old one that's got the yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:31

All right, so they did get rid of that, those boots. And so you had you do have to be really protective of those upper stanchion tubes. Right. Okay, so you can wash them to your heart's content, but you don't want to say use a wire brush on them. Or honestly, even a even a stiff nylon brush, I wouldn't necessarily use too aggressively on them. Soft things only. And so what happens if you if you scrape up or scratch that upper stanchion too much, yeah, you now have a spot on there which is not gonna seal very well against the rubber, all right? So as it pushes into the fork, which means that every time it pushes down into the fork and comes back up, it's gonna bring oil with it because it's gonna be bypassing that seal. Got it. Yeah. So, you know, uh a couple little scratches on there I've seen many times, yes, and I don't see any indication that you're that people are leaking fluid. But you do you do have to be gear careful of that.

SPEAKER_00 43:28

Well, I am I am excited about the prospect of trying a new I've had this kind of same travel for a while.

SPEAKER_03 43:35

So I am you have had you've had a much longer travel bike for a while, which has been nice.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

I can ride it anywhere, right? Like I've I've raced it, I've taken it up to gravity parks, I've taken I've I've I don't bottom things out. So I do it's a nice all-around bike for me, but also I recognize that maybe for it has been but I think it's worthy of my riding. I might prefer something.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna give this we're gonna give this a try. Um, this is a bike that we'll be announcing at some point soon, but it does have less travel than you've used, but it's actually much lighter, probably by five pounds the whole bike will be. And and is known to use its travel very well, and that feels like a longer travel bike, okay, as they say.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Interesting. I have so many.

SPEAKER_03 44:27

So it yeah, I I am actually very excited for you to to try that and see the difference.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Anything else on shocks, sag travel?

SPEAKER_03 44:37

Oh, I there probably so much more.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

You could just go on for a we'll have lots more on this, but I thought it was a great question. Well answered. We'll wrap up with a comment from a friend of mine. I had shared a couple of episodes ago about the person who said, you know, I have to ski, would you ski without clipping in?

SPEAKER_03 44:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

And and I'll admit, when we posted the show, and then I posted a short reel of it, I was like, I I felt so rebellious. Like I was gonna say this thing, which was stop shaming people. And she she responded to me, she said, I'm glad you posted it. It's important. People should not be shamed for the equipment they choose. I had one experience where I was in the parking lot with a couple of friends just getting ready to ride when a couple of dudes came out of the woods. The one dude looks at my pivot and says, Pivot's a brand. Pivot's a brand. Nice bike. You better be a good rider to have a bike like that. To which she was like, What the WTF. Yeah, you know, and her comment was, you don't have to earn your stripes on a on a crap tacular bike. And my other friends who weren't on pivots, of course, were like, Wait, what's wrong with my with my bike? And I I am gonna say that maybe I'm wrong, but I do think this is again a woman thing. I have experienced this myself um years ago. I I was riding a road bike, a very nice road bike that I owned. I pulled up to this area where we were stopping, and these two dudes Oh, you were the you were the you were getting snacks.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

Yeah, I was getting snacks.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

And I went to lean my bike up against the wall, and these two dudes were like, Oh, you you that's too nice of a bike to lean there. You shouldn't lean it there. You should go put it in the grass. Like, I don't know how to lean my bike against a wall, and then proceeded to ask me if my husband had bought me the bike.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

And I'll admit, I'm not good with the responses at the moment. Like, I wish I was faster at the responses. Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_03 46:39

It's an hour later, you think all the good comes out.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Yeah, my friends were like, she's gonna murder him. Um and I didn't. I just was like, no, what? No. I just want to plead with people to stop doing this. Stop.

SPEAKER_03 46:50

Yeah, guys, don't don't be don't be that dude who says you'd be you better be a good rider to have a bike like that.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

You better be a good rider. Could you imagine if I walked up to you and was like, hey, did your wife buy you that bike? That's a pretty nice bike. Where's the by the way, Steve, where's like the the shifting, where's the battery for the shifting? Where is that? Like, do you where's the these are real things that happened to me with this bicycle? Like, what's it made out of? Like, what but it was really the did your husband buy it for you? Right, and that was before we've owned the bike shop for over 10 years, but I never like said like I own a bike shop. You owned a bike shop, I helped with the bike shop. And when I came back, you actually said you should have said to him, no, I own a bike shop. And I was like, Right. That would have been so smart of me. So smart. So yeah, I just need to plead with people. And I will say, it's it's stereotypical, but it's dudes. Yeah, it's dudes and it's dudes to women, and it I just please stop. Do we have anything else for this episode?

SPEAKER_03 48:01

Should we wrap it up?

SPEAKER_00 48:02

Let's wrap it up. Cycling Together with Kristen and Steve is a production of Steve the Bike Guy, an independent bicycle shop in Eastern Massachusetts and Sundon Marketing.

SPEAKER_03 48:10

If you like the show, please review leave a review or share with a friend for show notes, links, or to leave a comment, question, or topic suggestion. Visit cycling together.bike. Uh, and you can follow the shop on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube at Steve the Bike Guy.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Thank you for joining the ride.

SPEAKER_03 48:26

All right, we'll see you next time. Are you recording?