24. A Cacophony of Clicks.... or How Jeff Started Riding & Racing

We enjoyed speaking with Jeff so much - we had him on twice! 

Jeff shares how he started riding with an epic race on a rented bike, and how the "cacophony of clicks" keeps him coming back to racing, events and group rides.

We also discuss why cyclocross is the ultimate niche sport, but with the most welcoming community of riders, and a ew generation of riders on gravel bikes, the time might be now for growth.

Kristin and Steve also discuss rules of the road for riders (and why we are our own worst enemy) and the potential consequences of the UCI's possible decision to ban 32" mountain bike wheels, and Kate Courtney's record setting time winning the Leadville Trail 100.

Photo credit: Steve the Photographer - Treehouse CX

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:03

This is Kristen.

SPEAKER_03 0:05

And I'm Steve, and you're listening to another episode of Cycling Together, a show all about things, bikes, riding, and riding together.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

I'm pooped.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

You're a little tired, huh?

SPEAKER_02 0:15

Yeah, we did 30 miles today. You know, I always say that I don't like um road riding anymore. But you put together a function.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Today was intended to get just some more miles in, some more time in the saddle. So this was a mixed terrain ride, but much more road-focused.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Very road focused.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

Yeah, and and with some good climbs because I wanted to put some climbing into your legs.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Oh my gosh. That one climb in the Upton State Forest that you said, oh, my Garmin says it's one of the rare times we've gone out and I didn't have the route. So I really just was like, I know we're doing 30 miles. I'm just gonna follow him around. And you said, you said, oh, there's a the Garmin says there's a climb. And we turned and just up, up, up, up, up, up of not dirt road, like rocky road, rocky dirtness in the middle. And then we passed two mountain bikers who were standing near the top. I couldn't even like I kind of smiled at them, but I was by the time we were deep into the climb, and I was like, it's either keep going or stop and say hello. I cannot do both things because it was a pretty big that was a pretty big climb.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

I wouldn't have guessed you were you were tired of that. I mean it was it was you know only 30, and I know you haven't done you've been doing more mountain biking, so you haven't been doing a lot of miles, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

No, I haven't.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

But you were riding strong, and you took the QM on that climb, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Over a minute. Um, yeah, no, it was really good. It was a day that I thought it's not that I don't like road riding. I do like road riding. I like road riding a nice open wide road. Not open.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

Like we we spent a lot of time on quiet, tree-lined, that's what I mean, canopy covered. Uh yes, very, very little traffic. We barely saw any any cars out there.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

I like that kind of road. Yeah, that was good road. That was good road riding. And we did that today because we are going to where where are we going? What's our next group ride?

SPEAKER_03 2:22

We are going to the D2R2, which is the Deerfield Dirt Road Randon A, right? And that is something that's been on our list forever. And for whatever reason, that's like the third week in August, we have always seemed to have something. Yeah. It was, well, it was a traditionally a vacation week that we went away. Then it was getting kids off to college and all that kind of stuff. So this is the first year we have said, ah, we're gonna get this in.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

We're doing it. Benefits the Franklin Land Trust. We are signed up for the 100K. So a little nervous. The 30 miles kicked my patoti because and the hundred K.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

This is supposedly the classic. The classic. This is the classic route that I guess started it all, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Yeah, and there's a big group. We just got um we just got pulled into a big group uh email chain, and somebody even put together a I do like a good spreadsheet. Um, a spreadsheet with who is coming, what team they're on, what distance they're planning. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 3:20

And at the camping, I think, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Yeah, so we're camping Friday night. Apparently, it's a big festival. We do have to decide tonight if our daughter, who's gonna be with us, wants to do the 40 miler because today is the cutoff to sign up.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

Okay. That so our friend Lewis, uh, who is also going, he I think he's going this year. He had told me that this is one of the best days in the saddle that there is of the year. Right?

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Yeah, I'm excited. Um, as I said, a little nervous because I am very tired from today. But it's actually the perfect lead-in to today's show. Um, last week we had our friend Jeff on as you and he shared your experiences doing the rift, but he was really here to uh for an interview about how he started cycling. And as you say at the beginning of it, he really epitomizes for you.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Cycling together.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Cycling together. Because he he rides, does lots and lots of things.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

He is the glue that binds so many of us together to ride together.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

So a couple of things as we lead into it. There's definitely a little bit of what I'll call inside baseball or um uh local name-dropping. So, so some familiar names for those of us in New England, and there are a couple of times during the interview where where Miss Daisy made herself known. A few barks, just a few barks, but anyway, enjoy this interview and we will be back. All right, we are here with our friend Jeff Diefenbach, friend, teammate, competitor. Um welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Thank you. Great to be here.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

So we are here to learn about how you started cycling. I I'm loving this segment because there's so many people we've met through bikes and that we have zero idea how they got into it.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

This, you know, the the show is called Cycling Together, and Jeff, you are just basically the embodiment of cycling together. You are the reason why so many of us get out there on our bikes, get up in the morning early, get together for coffee and bikes. You are the linchpin in many cases for a lot of these groups. And so cycling together is just you are the perfect guest for this.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Great. Well, normally I think that together gets worse every extra person you add. So two people is a great conversation, right? A third, uh, less, and so on down the line.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

I'll see you later then.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Present company accepted. Oh, of course.

unknown 6:01

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

We're just one anyway. So let's start with the the simple one, which is what we try to ask is not necessarily when you started riding bikes, because I think everybody goes back to when I was four, but when did you, I guess, start making a conscious decision to ride bikes?

SPEAKER_00 6:18

So it started with a girl. Okay. Well 2007, I was at a new job. A colleague of mine, a peer, so we both reported to the same person, was a triathlete, is a triathlete. And it was maybe a year after that that she said, Do you want to go do a bike ride when you're out in Colorado? So I was working remotely from Boston for a Denver-based company, and I'd be out there maybe once a month or so. And I said, Sure, let's do it. And I was picturing a group ride like what you do group rides here. And then a week before she said, It's actually really a race. Does is that okay? There's a citizen category, which is kind of like cat five. So you can just do a one-day license and you can do this race. And I said, sure, do I have to really race? Because I I don't know how to do that. Is it a road race or mountain bike or uh road race? Road race, okay, yes.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

Yep, that makes sense. The citizens category.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Yeah. So I said, sure, I'll do it. I I guess I can rent a bike out there, and it went from there. And and a week later, uh, after I think having driven cross country with my manager, so he was in Vermont, met in Springfield, hopped in his Prius with his dog and a bunch of antiques, and drove, I think in three days to Cheyenne, Wyoming, where my friend Holly picked us up and drove us down to Denver and then out to the start line in Idaho Springs. This is at the base of the Mount Evans Hill climb, which starts at about 7,500 feet and goes uphill to about 142. This was your first really first serious bike ride. What wow. And wait, did you bring a bike with you? I rented. Oh, you rented about there. Yep. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

Had you been riding at home?

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Not really. Okay. Not really. I think maybe we had gotten road bikes, but but was super new to it. And did you have equipment? Yeah. Second gear, helmets, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah. I had that stuff. I don't quite, so it must have been timed with having having stuff at home. I had this nice Serrata. They uh Wheat Ridge Cyclery in Denver Highlands rented it to me despite my not being a dentist.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

And uh it had a triple chain ring, which I thought was just cool, right? More gears has got to be better. And so so as I'm riding the the profile of this ride, it's flatter for the first half and then steeper for the second half, and the steeper part is when the elevation really gets up there. And so I was saving the third chain ring, the little one. When things really got bad, I was gonna drop into that.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

And things really got bad, probably around 12,000 feet. I shifted and I was already in it.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

So that was my racing career. I think I finished in three hours, 45 minutes, uh, way down in the field. I did not threaten the podium.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

And I got hooked.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

You got hooked.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Yep. So your cycling started with a race. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

Essentially.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Yeah. I think I'd been, I think we had maybe gotten new road bikes at home, but just Charles River Wheeler's kinds of rides.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Okay. I mean, which is still, yeah. All right. So you came home from that and you and and you had been bitten by the of racing or riding.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Uh I guess serious riding. I think, Steve, I heard you say you have to make a decision about whether you're truly racing or just doing a hard effort. And things like the rift that we just did, yes, you really aren't for most part racing for the podium.

unknown 9:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Right?

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

I'm just out there to enjoy it and push myself, but I don't need to worry about, ooh, I could maybe be going harder now, and that might get me five minutes ahead or ten minutes ahead or ahead of some number of people.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Right. There's a nice camaraderie to the two teams, but I feel like 545, whenever I see that kit, like first of all, there's a lot of you around. I probably don't know most of them, but I always feel like I do. Like 545! I have no idea who that is. Um, but is that one of the reasons like that you wanted to join a team? So up at the Or had you not know you wanted to join a team until Larry asked.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Um I hadn't really thought about it, but I was racing in my McGregor's kit. So we start to get into the subtleties between a club and a team.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

And the McGregor's are a club. So it's a group of people who ride together, but don't race, although nothing would prevent you from racing in the the the club kit.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

And so that was fine. I felt like I had an affiliation. There were other people who raced in the McGregor's kit. We didn't really act like a team within the race environment because we were a community that was beyond that.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Well, how did McGregor's even form? Like how does how did that come about?

SPEAKER_00 11:07

So the the the founding of all of this is the Crack of Dawn Riders. C O D.

unknown 11:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

They were formed in 1992 as a means to do training for PMC.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

And the idea was we're all people who work, not me. I wasn't part of this at that time frame. We work, and we need to get our rides in, and the best time to do it is in the morning, before work, before the day gets out of hand. Right. So we'll set a start time of 5 45 a.m. You can probably see where the 545 Velo team name came from. The motto of Crack of Dawn was be there or ride alone. If you showed up at 546, the group was gone. Okay. Very punctual. In the way that road riders particularly are uh much more so, I think, than dirt riders. Oh, yes, absolutely. That is a that is a culture.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

545-ish.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

And so COD rides from Newton City Hall at 545. And they had Monday, Wednesday, Friday from Newton City Hall from Cutler Park, Tuesday and Thursday.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

That was just a difficult place for people farther west to get to. And so the McGregor's formed centered in Weston for people in the Sudbury, Weston, Wellesley, Wayland area.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

So Crackadon Riders branched out. Branched out to McGregor's.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Effectively equivalent, though. Both clubs, both reasonably large, different personalities based on who's there. Okay. And so that was how the McGregors, and I joined them because I was in Wayland, so they were much more convenient for me than going all the way into Newton. Okay. And aft when Larry said, Are you interested in joining? I he probably didn't finish his sentence before I said yes. Actually, after I said, wait a second, I don't know how this works. And I'm not really, I'm not really one of you. I'm I'm a pretender racer.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

But again, it's about are you interested in racing and taking racing seriously? Even if you don't take racing quickly.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

Okay. Look pro go slow. Pretty much, yeah. Yeah. That's pretty much one of our modos. You love that motto. Yep, absolutely. I think it's great. And you still run like weekly rides. You have your socials that you run out of Wellesley, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:24

So there was a large group out of Wellesley that's also started at 5 45. And this was uh many of the clubs in the area came together in Wellesley at Pete's Coffee on Friday morning. On f on Friday morning. There usually was the same ride within the clubs during the week, but on Friday morning was the big social and all the clubs are together. And and and I used to join those rides. That's when I sort of got involved and started getting into these different clubs. Right. Um I was never part of the McGregor's or the or the COD. Um that's when the Blue Ginger Club sort of formed from that.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Oh, that's right. That was another club.

SPEAKER_03 14:06

And and that's where I met most of these guys, is from through that. And then COVID just killed that.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Well, and Pete's coffee got sold to a bank.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Well, I think it was Bob Jenny who started the dirty social, which was the off-road version or not so much version, but same start time, same start location, right, same end time and location. So it had all of the social benefits before and after, but off-road for people who just had more fondness for dirt. And Bob would organize those rides, and I would sometimes call it if he didn't, and just more and more it became my calling those rides. So we might do a Tuesday ride on dirt in Weston, coincident with the Tuesday, Thursday McGregor's ride, a Friday Dirty Social, coincident with the social rides out of Wellesley Center. Wednesday, I might go and do the Western Greenway, which starts at the same place that the Hills ride in Belmont and Arlington starts. So I just basically made a companion dirt ride to all of the more organized pavement rides because that was my preference, and it meant that you got the advantages of the bigger group and the social aspects of that, but I didn't have to ride on the road. Well, you're gonna hear that you're gonna hear that Jeff is a morning person.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

Jeff is well, I hear two things. Jeff is a morning person and Jeff is a social person. Do you think most of your rides are with some group? Like how often do you just ride by yourself?

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Um probably mostly when Larry says he's in and then doesn't show up. That jives. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Okay, so not intentionally.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Not intentionally. I would say the vast majority are with at least a couple of other people.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Okay. And why do you do you just prefer that? Or you don't like riding by yourself?

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Uh it's a good question. Yeah, I like I think I like the social aspect. I'm an introvert, but on the ride, particularly on dirt, you're not necessarily that close to people, so you don't have to talk to them, but you think of things to say, and then at coffee afterwards you can have a conversation for half an hour, 45 minutes, and then you're off to work.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Oh, that's so smart, right? Because yeah, you you uh immediately have something to talk about, but you also have something keeping you busy. You have a set amount of time afterwards that you have to socialize. You want to, and then you and then you head home.

SPEAKER_03 16:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

You might have cracked the code there.

SPEAKER_03 16:33

And I I just love and I have not made enough, but I love the dirty socials that you have on on Fridays. I I guess I stopped really road riding what a few years ago. Um and I loved the I love the fast-paced hammering road ride that we used to have. But now I just prefer the off-road more social casual ride and and coffee after the same.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Well, do you think that because I know you've often said, Steve, that there is a trust factor to a fast road ride of the group. That the group has to have a certain chemistry. It does. So you don't hurt yourself, so you don't break bikes, so you don't do you find you need the same kind of trust in a few.

SPEAKER_03 17:17

You don't, no, and actually, as you say that, uh towards the latter part of the road rides that I would do, there were a lot of new people, and I was finding myself more and more nervous in some of these pace lines of people not holding the same lines. It's such a a subtle, nuanced thing, and I don't even know how to explain it, but there were certain groups you'd go out with, and there was just you could be inches off their wheel, and everything was perfect. And then all of a sudden, new people, new people, new people, and you'd be out in these groups, and there's just something it was something off. You could just tell you you were a little more nervous. There was because the people weren't holding the same lines, people were coming up on your side when they shouldn't be. And uh, and I think that's sort of the waning part of my road riding.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Um the way I think of it is those kinds of road rides with people you know well, it's like a school of fish, and they just flow together. Yeah, and now you introduce a second school of fish, the new people, or maybe even on those Fridays, where it might be Blue Ginger and McGregor's and Crack of Dawn and 545 Ello and three or four other groups, and the chemistries were just enough off that the fish didn't know how to follow each other.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

What would you say is some of the keys to getting people to cycle together? I like the idea of riding with people, but more times than not, I end up riding by myself. It just feels easier.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

I think the magic is having a list of many tens of people and only needing four or five to show up, and it feels like a group.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

I want to step back a bit because I think we just went from I did ride uh west and then suddenly I was racing 400 races. So you did the road race, you came back, you were road racing, riding at the time. How did you first find McGregor's? You said you mentioned a name, but like even how, like, how did you find those people?

SPEAKER_00 19:19

I think that was through Bob Jenny, and I don't remember how I'd met him.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Okay. Um someone's gonna have to call Bob. Someone's gonna have to call Bob.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

But Bob won't remember because he's had nine TBIs, so that's not gonna happen either. I don't remember how exactly I met Bob either.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Yeah, he just appeared.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Just I mean, I certainly appreciate what you say about my being a connector, and I I think I am, but Bob is also that in in a really powerful way. Um I think in part because he's been riding bikes professionally as a BMXer for for a long time. A long time. His his network is is bigger by virtue of both types. And number of disciplines. Right. But I think once you get into the off-road and what I'll call the not super technical mountain bike crowd. So there's a group based out of Weston that rides fairly technical mountain biking, more technical than I want to do. Okay. Hitting all the features in Needham Town Forest, for instance, is just more dangerous than what I want to do for my skill set. And so we've got this tamer group of mountain bikers, and we will alternate between, not quite alternating, between gravel rides and mountain bike rides. Sometimes there'll be people on both types of bikes on them because it's underbiking on a gravel bike, it's a little bit tame on a mountain bike, but nobody's out there trying to rip their legs off. They may hit a particular feature hard, they may do a particular climb hard, but then there's a regrouping, and then we continue on. And it's something of a sweet spot between the fast road ride and the really technical mountain bike ride. And that in between, I guess I like to say I'm I'm mediocre at both types, technology or the technical riding and the road riding in this happy medium. I'm reasonably better, relatively speaking, in that middle ground.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

Okay. Which is a perfect morning ride. Yeah. And and it surprises me, you're not, you don't even live in Wellesley, haven't lived there, and yet you have created many, many great courses stringing together the dirt to dirt-to-dirt that exists there, which is a lot of great stuff.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

And what's amazing about both Wellesley and Weston, there is so much dirt. And you'd think of these as developed suburban towns. Yeah. Maybe there's some conservation land, but but it's much more than that. And if you extend beyond those towns into Newton, there's a fair bit. You can get out into Sudbury, down into Dover and Sherburne. Uh there's and I one time linked together a lot of that into maybe a 65-mile ride ride hitting all of that terrain. There's so much of it here. Now it's almost all connected by roads. It's not like going out to unbound gravel in Kansas where you ride for hours and hours and hours and you never hit pavement. Here it's maybe 50-50 pavement and dirt. You spend more time on the dirt because it's a bit slower, but you're always making connections onto pavement. And so you can re knit these loops together in an infinite number of ways.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

How did you make the jump from road to was it cyclecross now?

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Cyclocross first. And that was through John McNeil's practices.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Bates Elementary School in Wellesley was the very first one I went to at some point in 2012.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

And then started signing up for some races. I guess two that year. I think I did nine the following year, 2020. I had a mountain bike, but not a ton. Not a ton. Um, it was not a bicycle-shaped object. It was a specialized, I think it was a right with an actual mountain bike. Yeah, yeah. It was it was either the hard rock or the rock hopper. I forget which one. Yeah, either one. It's yep, but legit. So but just messing around places like Framingham, uh Callahan State Park was the place that I rode that most. Um and just slowly shifted. 2015 was my big pivot year where I went from much more road to much more dirt. That was the year that I did Leadville, and so all the preparation for Leadville was all on dirt, and really just didn't look back after that. At that point, I was probably racing 15 to 20 cyclocross races a year.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

And 2015, like I swear, I started 2014, and then 2015 was my biggest year of cross racing, I think.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Well, you also participate in a lot of big events like that, like Leadville, and like so. How do you even decide that you want to do those? Um, because I mean we haven't really Steve has really never expressed that much interest in going out to these big races.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

It's a small step to I ride locally to oh, there's a ride called Mixtape or Pavement Ends or D2R2 or any of the races that are easy driving distance, you don't even have to stay overnight.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

But they tend to be big events, right? You've got hundreds of people sometimes, a real festival feel at the beginning in the end. And then it's just, oh, well, I've heard of these bigger events. They they may or may not be bigger, but they are elsewhere. So whether it's Colorado or Kansas or uh, you know, Arkansas, any of the places that that these name marquee events are, it's like, oh, well, I know how to do the event. Now I just have to add the getting there, which you talked about recently in how do you get a bike to a place that isn't a big thing.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

But those big events, there it's a lot of logistics, it's time off, it's it's a lot more money just to go and essentially ride your bike for a day in many cases. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

So there is a leap there mentally to I I think that leap is one that you've just experienced, which is when your children leap off to school or whatever's next for them, all of a sudden, maybe going to college doesn't free up funding, but it certainly frees up time. Yes. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

Yeah, absolutely. And you have a van.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

And I have a camper van, right? So I can do certainly within New England, uh, avoid a hotel cost, often it's just a campground cost. Some of the events you can you can stay for free at the event. And I've done farther afield, I've driven it out to Colorado, I've driven it to Kansas. Uh it's a lot of time. Uh it's not a cheap endeavor, but uh but I would say relatively speaking, it's it's like our friends in Iceland, it's not like owning horses. Right.

SPEAKER_03 25:30

Do you do you like or participated in those uh organ I guess group rides where it's okay at two o'clock the intermediate group of some disciplines going out, you know, and or you know, at three o'clock this this group is going out. Do you do any of those or like those, or is it more it almost seems like the bus tour version of cycling in a many ways?

SPEAKER_00 25:55

I think about NEMBAFest, for instance, was a lot like that. We were camping up in Vermont, and it might be our group of 10, 15 people, but there are some set times. The Turkey Afterburner in Hale is another example of that where oh, there's the the the beginner ride, the intermediate ride, the advanced ride. Some of them are longer in time, some of them are more technical. And so you don't have to be an organizer to make that work. And maybe that's what I like about a lot of the big events is I don't have to organize anything, I don't have to rally the people. It's a chance to follow someone else's route.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Yep. Now you mentioned Betsy and she rides.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

She rides.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Did she always ride, or did she start riding when when you met?

SPEAKER_00 26:41

It was embarrassing when we met, she had one bicycle.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Just one.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Just one. And you still kept her. I still kept her. So great.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Well, because she kept that bike. Oh, was it an acceptable bike? No. No. No, okay. It probably was once. So she's into it. She has crewed for me at Leadville. She crewed for me at Unbound. Uh, we'll do a lot of riding together. We're different speeds, uh, which is totally fine. We were in Portugal back at the end of March with a group of, I think a dozen of us, most of whom were pretty serious riders. She got an e-bike and it just worked perfectly. That's awesome. I mean, she dropped me a lot, but it was good.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

So it worked perfectly. That sounds perfect. Okay, so how many bikes does she have now?

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Let's see. So she's got the original mountain bike. Okay. I don't know if we've found a saddle for it yet. That was one of its defining features, is not having a saddle on it.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

Oh, comfy.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Um, she, in fact, that whatever my first specialized mountain bike was, she has that.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Uh, she has a gravel bike, an old road bike, but I don't know the last time that's been out of the basement. Yeah. I used to run a folding bike company, and I gave her a folding bike, and she still has that, but she never rides that. So her primary bikes are the fat bike, maybe as a secondary bike, and her gravel bike is her primary.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Okay, I'm gonna need you to take a step back. Yes, I knew this was coming. The whole um I used to run a folding bike company. What? In the whole, like in how you started cycling, that did not come up. So what what tell me more.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

So a friend of mine who I used to work with back in my consulting days was an at the time it started a company helping broker arrangements between US companies that needed parts and Chinese companies that could make parts.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

In any discipline, uh typically industrial things.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

And he knew a guy in Walfam who was in the uh the the swag business. I'm sure I'm not characterizing the way he would, but but merchandise that you might branded branded ideas. Tchotchkis. Tchotchkis. But he had a big warehouse, okay, and they had this idea of importing folding bikes. Okay. And they said, we should get Jeff to do this because he'll do the sales and marketing part. And so the three of us came together. We had one guy who could get the bikes in the country. Okay. We had one guy who could keep the bikes in the country. Okay. And my job was to get the bikes back out of not the country, but the warehouse.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

And so we ponied up, I don't know, collectively, maybe 40 grand and ordered a container of bikes, which I think was about 280 folding bikes. Okay. So the design was not ours. The design was some Chinese company. So we got to choose things like components and colors and that sort of thing. And the branding. So the company was called F Bike.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Our our tagline. So the F is for folding. Okay. That's better than Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

Got it.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Um what we we had several ads that we did for websites and that sort of thing. And it was can't fit your bike in your apartment. Okay. Get an F-bike.

unknown 29:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

I think the tagline was something like F that, F-bike. Oh. All right. And we sold about 1200 over four years. Okay. About half through Amazon. And then the other half people would find our website either naturally or they would search for it after they found us on Amazon and try to circumvent Amazon. They would always say, We want to get it for less. We would basically split the Amazon commission with them.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

Okay. And so that was that was just a cool way to be in the bike industry.

SPEAKER_03 30:20

I knew you had done this, but I really didn't I have never really heard that full story.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

So in the grand scheme of road to cyclocross, like where did the folding bikes fall in?

SPEAKER_00 30:34

That was 2012 to 2016. Okay. So roughly the same time that I started cyclocross and m started making the transition from road to dirt. Okay. These bikes, it was an inexpensive bike. We sold it for$250. We landed it in the country for about$100.

unknown 30:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

And it was aimed at commuters or college students, somebody who needed a small bike, an inexpensive bike, and didn't have a lot of space.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Yeah. So why did you shut it down?

SPEAKER_00 31:02

We either had to grow the business or shut it down. We were just, we got to this inflection point. Yeah. And we decided we just didn't have the time to invest more. We had a single model, we would have to go to multiple models.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

There was a company, I think, called Citizens Bike out of Miami that really had this space dialed and we were competing with them. We tended to have the top reviews on Amazon.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

If you sort of sorted by review, just because our customer service was really good. It was good because I was customer service and I didn't want to be treated like I was often treated by customer service. So if somebody had a problem, we would fix it. We'd get them a new bike, we'd replace the parts, okay, give them a refund, whatever it took. And so the bike itself was nothing special, but I think people always felt like the company took care of them.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Yeah. Do you ever see them like around town? Used to. No. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

I would be surprised if many are still rolling. Yeah, but not because we're now at 10 years and sure. But the one, the two that we have still roll. I don't ride it anymore. Right. I have a different commuting bike for the city, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

That's very cool.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Yeah, the frame looks cool on the wall. The frame, the frame actually looks much cooler than the full bike.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

So moving forward, what's on your schedule? What are some of the the rides you're looking forward to?

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Or there's only one answer to this. Oh, okay. Because it's July. Cross is coming. Cross. Uh cross is coming.

SPEAKER_03 32:22

Can we can say that till August, though? No, there are races in August. There are no never mind. I guess July is cross is coming. See? See?

SPEAKER_00 32:31

Everybody loves Psycho Cross.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

All right, let's talk about Cross, actually. Uh, because you and Larry had, we were you were talking on that endurance podcast about Boss Cross, which is one of the races that 545 organizes. Yep. And the host asked something about growing it, and Larry said for what purpose there aren't enough racers, right? Like we're it's the proper size. Which then got into a conversation on like how do we get more people to start cycling or cycling together, whether that's cyclocross, I mean, specifically or just in general. What would you say is the biggest barrier for people to cycling?

SPEAKER_00 33:14

So cycling is a somewhat cycling at a serious level is just niche and it's not inexpensive. Yep. And cyclocross takes the nicheness and squares it. And more so that everybody can picture you get on a bike and you ride on the road. Yes. Or you get on a mountain bike and you ride on trails. Or you pin a number on and you race.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

Cyclocross is a little bit different because you're not always on the bike. And I think that throws people off. So it's it's got probably the most welcoming community of any cycling. The fast people will be perfectly fine having a great conversation with a beginner, right? So Alex's story about Helen Wyman is a perfect example of that. Um, I was there at that race and I saw the finish of Helen's race, which led to her cooldown lap with Alex, who I didn't know at the time. I only met Alex later. Um, but it's so cyclocross is as welcoming as you can be, but it's just weird. And so what one of the things that you and I've talked about is running some clinics for people who've never raced cyclocross. And the time is right now because people have gravel bikes, and gravel bikes are perfect for getting into cross. Yeah. People with mountain bikes, they look a little bit different when they're in a cross race. Yes, and nobody likes to look different, right?

SPEAKER_03 34:37

And then 10 years ago, that's what you had to do. Yep. But but you're right, now most people, most people, most cyclists are are getting into gravel. Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

And so what I want to do is reach out to bike shops and say, tell me, I want you to circulate amongst your customers who've bought gravel bikes that here are some clinics where you can learn the oddities. Mainly it's around getting off the bike and getting on the bike in a somewhat graceful way. Because once you learn how to do that, then it's just riding a bike. And it's easier than mountain biking, it's not as technical. Um, it only takes 40 or 45 minutes, it's not like a long road race. Right. Uh it's it's super accessible in that way. It's just getting that activation over the the obstacle of getting on and off the bike. There's a lot of other things like how do I sign up for a race and what category I am. Yeah. But I think that's all teachable. You can you can read about that. But the the the physical thing.

SPEAKER_03 35:34

That's where clinics I think are really important. I I mean I I distinctly remember before my first cross race, and I had built this cross bike to do this, and it was okay, how do I how do I get on this bike in a moving fashion? And it and that first almost leap of faith onto the saddle while you're running with it, it was was nerve-wracking.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Well, you I think even to step back a little bit, I think even just awareness that cycle cross is a thing is still like so people are.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

We're gonna say cycle cross now and people are not gonna know what it is.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Like people know you rode and ra you ride in race bikes on the road, and they know you ride in race bikes on mountain bikes. And I will be with our mountain bike team and I'll say something about when I raced when I raced cyclocross. And some will say, What, what now? What is that? What you know, then I'm stuck in the finding the words to describe the niche insanity, which is and I think you're absolutely right. Like we've had some conversations on Slack about does it need to be a multi-day clinic? Does it be and I really think it just needs to be a couple of hours of let's break down the basics now, go out, go forth and race because the rest you just kind of gotta do.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Right, right. I think of it as when I explain it, I just say it looks like a road bike, but it's got knobby or tires because you're gonna ride on dirt. Yeah, and you're gonna ride four or five laps in a park or at a school on a course that's marked by tape and is super labyrinthian, and and you're chasing people and people are chasing you. Yep. And that part would be really easy. Adding in the dismounting and mounting, and all of a sudden it's just one notch more, but people get people learn that quickly.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Yeah. And even the difference between now and when we were starting cycle cross is we we have shorthand, it's a gravel bike, right? Right. We didn't even have that. So I do think we are there's a lot of potential between, say, the kids that are mountain biking and now might want to do something different, and they can ride on mountain bikes. In fact, when Sophie did the cyclocross national championship in Connecticut with all the snow, the two girls that came in ahead of her were riding mountain bikes, and we put our poor kid on a cross bike. Because you're purists, because it didn't, I don't think it even occurred to us to put it on.

SPEAKER_03 38:03

Well, and the conditions changed minute by minute there, and she ended up riding in the snow, and that's why the mountain bike was better.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

But and then, yeah, all the gravel people, right? All the gravel people who may not realize what this bike could participate in.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

But the cross race for beginners is also, I think, as you talked about, the community is a little more welcoming, and it is not like a road race where if you are far behind, you were sort of out there on the road all by yourself, and finally you come in. And it's not like a mountain bike race where you were out in the middle of the woods and and you're not quite sure maybe where to go, and you're if you're falling behind. Because the course is short and it's all within sight, and everybody finishes behind the leader, there's just not a lot of pressure. It does not matter how you do, it really doesn't. You were still out there doing your own thing, and you you can have a better time, I think.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

That's certainly when I feel the most like a bike racer because I've got a number pinned on and there's somebody ahead of me that I want to catch. In a gravel ride, I'm not trying to catch somebody who's ahead of me. There's somebody behind me who's trying to catch me, and it's all about the dynamics of that handful of racers, and it changes over the course of race. Maybe I pass a few people and now I'm battling a few others, but it is the most bike racy I ever feel. And yet it's not dangerous. People almost never get hurt beyond a scrape or a bruise. You're just not moving fast enough. There's no cars around, no big descents or anything like that, no rocks or anything like that. So it is, I think, the easiest way to try to learn to race a bike, and then you can figure out if you like it.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

Right. I was gonna ask if you thought that was your most like that's where you flip the switch between racing and riding is a cycle cross, where again, unbound, you're just you're riding, right? But you're not necessarily racing.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

I think about it more like a marathon. These longer endurance events, you're challenging yourself, but you don't really care about beating that person. It's about maybe bettering your time from the time before. Um, you know, some of these events, it it's really hard. You may not do them many times, but hey, my average speed is going up at these at an event that's kind of like Leadville. Like Leadville, yeah, anything like that. Where I I you know, I'm I'm not, again, I'm not even in within an age group, I'm not racing for a podium, and and practically speaking, only a few people are.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

But but and so I think of that as the way I think of of an Iron Man or or a running race. But in Cyclocross, you're really the the difference between 41st and 42nd position in a race seems to matter in the moment.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Oh, absolutely. When you get into that race head of like, oh, there's right just right there, there's somebody right there that I can get. I absolutely can see that.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

And and there's a good chance you know that person well because we're racing against the same people week after week after week. So whether it's a teammate who I really want to beat or somebody who's on a different team who I kind of want to beat, uh it it's you know you're gonna share the laughs over whoever won in the parking lot.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

Now, one thing you do do very, very well beyond all your racing is your storytelling. Because you have a blog. Do we still call them that?

SPEAKER_00 41:25

I do.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Okay. Can we tell the URL? Do you want to share it?

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Uh Deepbrook.com slash portfolio. Okay. So that's Deep and Brook, which is the literal translation of Deep and Bach.

SPEAKER_02 41:36

Oh, I was you know, I always wondered where the name came from. Okay. And you learn something new again. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

My tagline for a long time was longer ride, long rides, longer ride reports. Okay. Um, I like to write and I like to tell stories. I like to bring in media, so I shoot a lot of photography. I often will have a video camera running on the bike, and it makes just a great record of the event. So probably, with a few exceptions, it's my parents, maybe my kids taking a look at it. Uh, I'm probably the bigger audience than both of them because I'm really doing it as a record of what I've done. I'll go back and read, for instance, the Mount Evans Hillclimb. I can go back and read about that event and be reminded of things that I would have never remembered on my own.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

You were creating a very cool and interesting personal life journal.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Yeah, it's a diary or a journal. Exactly. And so uh that's just fun. And for bigger events, I I may get a fair number of views because I've I share it more widely within I'm not on algorithmic social media. Okay, but I'm on social media in the form of Slack and Discord.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

And that's where you know kind of walled communities of cyclists and will share race reports or photos or that sort of thing. Yep. Um, yeah, just love doing it. I like to think that I'm at least amusing more often than not.

SPEAKER_03 43:00

So last week everyone was talking about they were expecting a breakdown of each checkpoint on the rift and where everybody was. And so that's sort of I think they were joking, but that is sort of the expectation that uh a lot of people have of the detail that you can put into these things.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

Well, because you'll also do was it unbound was unbound the most recent thing you did before the rift?

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

So you had the trip out there, you had how you found your spot to camp, what you were camping with, the the mistakes you made, which I will admit are usually my favorite parts of any ride report. Yeah, well, that's the other thing. If you are someone who is thinking of doing one of these rides, I imagine it would be quite useful to read. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Right. Your point about others can learn from it is actually important, right? Chris Smith, our friend who did the Tour Divide last year and has video telling of that tale. That's for this year's rider or next year's rider, they find that and that may save them. They'll make their own mistakes, but maybe they can not make some of the ones that Chris made.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

They can make new mistakes. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

When I video cyclocross races, those all get posted online. Yeah. So if somebody's saying, Oh, I want to go race Blunt Park, but that's an hour and a half away, what's the course like? Right. A teammate they can just go and watch that video and go, okay, I get it.

SPEAKER_02 44:27

Yeah. Oh, I love it. It's just another way to, again, cycling together. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks for hosting. This well, thank you. And um, I will try to make it out to one of the five fronts. I come out like once a year for one of your rides. I am not a morning person.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

For one of the dirty social rides. Yes. This probably doesn't get posted before this coming Friday, three days from now. But 5 45 from Pete's uh or uh Lyndon Starbucks in Wellesley.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

We'll have to talk about it. Well, thanks for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Great. Thanks a lot.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

All right, we're back. We're back. I love a a cacophony of clicks. Yeah, it's a good term. Yeah, it's a good term. I had a nice call with Jeff actually this week because we're scheming with um some other riders to do some cycle cross clinics to get some some uh kids and maybe some grown-ups into cycle cross.

SPEAKER_03 45:29

So yeah, we used to run clinics years and years ago when we were still racing, and we haven't done that in a while. But that would, yeah, that would be fun.

SPEAKER_02 45:37

I think it'll be fun. I know actually a friend just said, Oh, is Steve gonna help? I was like, Oh yeah, Steve's helping. He may not know yet.

SPEAKER_03 45:43

Apparently, I apparently now I know I'm helping.

SPEAKER_02 45:45

Steve is definitely helping. And I had another one of the girls asked me, Well, what are you using for a cyclocross bike? And I thought, well, I am not racing. Um, I did have for my we sold my cyclocross bike a couple of years ago. Yeah. We were gonna hold on to it just for archival reasons and nostalgia, but you have the same one, so we don't really need to. So we sold it. I will admit, I had a I had a moment where I thought, oh, I sold my cyclocross bike.

SPEAKER_03 46:16

We do have Jeremy Powers. We do have Jeremy Powers frame, yes, that is your size.

SPEAKER_02 46:24

Yeah, we'll talk about that. I can I can use my gravel bike, yeah. But we did because it is in a far better place getting used by a teenager who is actually racing it. So I don't really have regrets. I don't really need my cycle cross bike, but I did have a moment when she asked where I went, no, that's right. Well, we two things before we wrap up. One um is an uh road etiquette, road riding etiquette question. And um, as I can't be the only rider that this happens to, I do feel like I get a lot of questions from drivers about road etiquette because you know I speak for the cyclist. Um and the question I got recently was from one of my coworkers. She was telling me that she was driving on a fairly big busy street on the main street on her way. I will say on her way to work. I don't actually know that. When two cyclists came off of a side street and without looking, without pausing, without anything, flung themselves into traffic.

SPEAKER_03 47:34

Yep, made the right turn, just took a right turn just into the shoulder, but without any regard for the cars.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

I'm gonna assume into the shoulder, but I actually don't even know how wide the shoulder was. And her question to me was was that appropriate? Was that was that what they should have done? And my answer was no.

SPEAKER_03 47:56

Absolutely not. Now, you know, all of us cyclists are drivers as well, and so many times the cyclists have to defend ourselves and our riding and our safety out there against the drivers.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 48:11

And this is the time where Kristen and I are sort of taking the side of the drivers here, that that that kind of of turn in from from the road into another road, a right-hand turn, without any looking whatsoever, especially, that's usually what happens. Uh no regard for the cars that are just come going along. Yeah, you really, really scare those those drivers and you make them not like cyclists. That this is why, this is a big part of why drivers, so many drivers complain about cyclists and do not like cyclists. And we it's that just makes it more dangerous for all of us.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

It really does. We talk about this a lot, that your behavior as a cyclist rarely impacts you. It's the next cyclist that that driver encounters. Encounters. Um, we talk about one of one of our things in particular is if we're approaching a light and let's say there's two or three cars, the light is red, there's two or three cars that we'll we'll hold back. We won't pull up next to that first car because they're just gonna have to keep passing us, and that is just so frustrating for the driver, which again may impact us, but more likely it's gonna impact the next one. Yeah, this one, because I think partially what happens is the the rider just assumes, well, there's there's a shoulder, and I'm gonna go onto the shoulder, but of course the driver doesn't really know what you're gonna do, right? No idea what you're gonna do. And maybe there was a gap, it probably wasn't big enough.

SPEAKER_03 49:43

No, but I've seen cyclists go right pull right into the street, make that right turn right right next to a car. Yes. A car that's passing by at 30 miles an hour. They basically had they swung a little wide, the car would have hit them.

SPEAKER_02 49:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 49:57

And they were still not even looking left.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

Yeah, it is it is one of my pet peeves. It is something that I will say. I've I've talked to my when I've gone on group rides, and this happens, I have now become that mouthy cyclist who's like, hey guys, could we please years and years ago, I actually wrote to the Charles River Wheelers.

SPEAKER_03 50:21

Okay, I believe it was the whole thing about this, and they published that.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

They did. Ooh, I'm gonna have to find I it's a big one, and it's just an easy one. Now, I will say, I think one thing that cyclists could do better in those scenarios, too, is to take over the lane. So come up to that intersection, be to a breast, because the other thing that can happen is that drivers continue to come up to the intersection also, and they're trying to go left and you're trying to go right, and nobody can see right the clearance. So I do think that riders should more often take the lane than they probably do. That's a comfort thing that takes time to really like get comfortable with taking over a lane. But in this one, um, what I said to my coworker was that absolutely Yeah, no, and and just time it right.

SPEAKER_03 51:12

Look for those cars and just like pause as you're coming up to the stop. You don't have to unclick, you don't have to stop your foot down, but you have to be prepared to just plan your entry in in the break between cars.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

Yep. I think um when I put this in the video, I'll probably steal. PMC did a nice job with their safety video of recording, videoing uh me and Jarrett doing just this, coming up to an intersection, stopping, looking, going. And I just think that needs to be established as much as possible. We are our own worst enemy in some of in a scenario like this, we as cyclists are our own worst enemy. So cut it out. Quit it. Okay, and then we had a scene while scrolling.

SPEAKER_03 52:02

All right, what'd you see?

SPEAKER_02 52:03

Well, the conversation continues on the 32-inch mountain bike wheels. And I'm not so much talking about that. They're they're what I want to talk about is the UCI.

SPEAKER_03 52:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

Right. So we've mentioned the UCI before.

SPEAKER_03 52:19

They are the governing body of cycling. Okay, and they really international worldwide governing body of cycling.

SPEAKER_02 52:25

And they regulate mo all the major races they yes.

SPEAKER_03 52:30

Okay. Equipment, races, uh, clothing, right? Just basically everything that professional cyclists in UCI registered races can use.

SPEAKER_02 52:39

Right. And you've talked about in the past how um they want to make sure that the bikes that the racers are riding are available to the average consumer. That someone can buy the bike. Yeah, that's a requirement.

SPEAKER_03 52:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 52:54

It has to be able to available to buy within, I think it's six months, but uh so UCI is considering banning 32-inch mountain bike wheels.

SPEAKER_03 53:06

Mm-hmm. Um I I think this is again this can be controversial. I think this is a good idea for now.

SPEAKER_02 53:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 53:15

I would prefer to see 32-inch wheels, if they're going to break through on the scene, be used in other non-professional races first before we start having this wheel war within the professional ranks.

SPEAKER_02 53:33

They can always unban a thing. They can they've banned, they may temporarily ban it. Yep. Does it matter if UCI bans something like 32-inch wheels?

SPEAKER_03 53:46

Does it matter to the consumer? Yeah. I guess does it matter to all of us?

SPEAKER_02 53:49

Yeah. Like what's the impact of that? I guess maybe what's that impact for you as a bike shop when when UCI bans something like that?

SPEAKER_03 53:56

Sometimes if the if the UCI bans certain items, then that is not going to make its way to the consumer. The consumer's not going to see on the professional cyclist that they they adore, that they want to emulate, so they're not going to ride it. It's not going to make it to the market because the companies are not going to put any extra effort into it.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 54:17

Right. So if the UCI bans 32-inch wheels, that might kill it. Uh, it also might then just show up in more non-UCI professional type races. Yeah. Leadville is not a UCI race. Right. And so it might show up in other places, and then a UCI could always unban something, but it really can yeah, it can dissuade a product from making it to market.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

I mean, it may just slow it down, might be one of the benefits, so that everyone can get a grip on what's happening with these wheels and if they're worth manufacturing. Do you have people who come in because they see somebody riding, like, let's say, um, Kate Courtney, who just uh won the Leadville 100 crushing the course record by what 10 minutes on her BC40? Interestingly, there were all these articles about how everybody was basically doing hard tier mountain bikes with drop bars. Yeah. This was gonna be the new thing at Leadville. And she's it is the new thing in Leadville. Yeah, but she wins on her standard BC 40 setup.

SPEAKER_03 55:33

Yep, full suspension, allied BC 40. Uh yeah, yeah, no, no Freker Frankenstein bike.

SPEAKER_02 55:39

Do you think people see something like that and think, oh, maybe I should look at that bike?

SPEAKER_03 55:44

Oh, absolutely. Do they? Oh, this is bikes are millions of bikes are sold this way. Okay. Yes. From from the professionals winning on these bikes and people then wanting those bikes. Okay. I mean, that is why so many of the professional cycling teams are based around a brand a bike brand. They are not, you know, they're they're they either have they're either the secondary sponsor or the title sponsor in some cases.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

And they're on bikes that you could go into a shop and buy. Right. Like, I mean, you can buy the team issue spark, you can buy the so there are certain cases where that a professional might be on a very, very unique bike.

SPEAKER_03 56:37

And even though it has to be made available to the public, it's one of those things that it could be either cost prohibitive or time prohibitive. Like, you know, oh, we 3D printed these titanium lugs for that professional, and yeah, we can make you one, but it's gonna take 18 months and it's gonna be$20,000 type of thing.$20,000. That's that's a rare that is a rarity. Yeah. Um, because most of these companies want their bikes to be available to sell.

SPEAKER_02 57:03

I mean, so it's just marketing, right? It's just that's where the sponsorships are why they're sponsoring athletes, why they're sponsoring, so they can see the equipment in action and and they get they get feedback from the athlete, so they develop products in collaboration with the athlete.

SPEAKER_03 57:19

Yep, and then they also get that exposure, and then they're hoping that their athletes win on their bikes because then people want the bikes. Right. Yeah, and and the tires people want that. Oh, what like people will say what tires was Kate Courtney using? Okay, and then go buy that tire. So whatever, and I haven't looked yet, but uh whatever tire she was using, they are going to sell more tires next month.

SPEAKER_02 57:41

You know what? I'll admit, seeing her across the line, watching some of the I thought, that's my bike. Like cool, it is cool. No, no, no. I mean, it's you know, I did think, oh, maybe I need a sit fork, but that's I you do, but I'll admit there are you think, oh, that's cool. Like I'm riding the same bike, I'm not riding the same way. Um, but it's yeah, it's exciting. It's cool. I'll admit it. So congratulations, Kate. All right. Well, I think that's it for this episode of Cycling Together. Next time we are on, we will have um hopefully survived. I will hopefully have survived D2R2. That you will have dragged me across the finish line.

SPEAKER_03 58:26

It should be a great day.

SPEAKER_02 58:28

You'll be you'll be enjoying a nice, leisurely pace. All right, let's wrap this up. Cycling together with Kristen and Steve is a production of Steve the Bike Guy, an independent bicycle shop in eastern Massachusetts and Sundon Marketing.

SPEAKER_03 58:40

If you like the show, please leave a review or share with a friend. And for show notes, links or to leave a comment, question, or topic suggestion, visit cycling together.bike.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

Yes, and can I reinforce that one? If you are listening to this show or watching it, reviews would be really helpful. Please, please give us a review. Um, in particular, I'll be I will say most of our listeners are on um, I'm gonna call it iTunes because I'm an old lady that's been podcasting. I know, but now it's just what Apple Podcasts. It's just Apple Podcasts or Spotify or whatever your favorite app is. You can also find the shop on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at Steve the Bike Guy.

SPEAKER_03 59:18

Okay. We'll see you next time. Thanks for joining the ride. Bye. You lost me there. I have a second. Hold on.

SPEAKER_02 59:24

Um the racing versus riding. So you were starting. Okay, yeah. No, you go.

SPEAKER_00 59:32

Okay. Yeah, right. There we go. I I imagine that every podcast is like this.