Bike Upgrades That Give The Most Bang For Your Buck

Upgrading the parts and components on your bicycle can be a great way to improve comfort and performance – but what are the upgrades that will give you the best "bank for your buck" and when is the "juice not worth the squeeze." Kristin and Steve discuss what to look for when buying a bike including what can (and can't) be easily upgrade.

They also discuss the Ozark Trail from Walmart, a new line of low cost, better quality bikes which promise to get more people on bicycles, and take a moment to say good-bye to a member of our cycling community, Anthony Moccia.

Transcript

Kristin 0:04

This is Kristin.

Steve 0:05

And I'm Steve, and you are listening to Cycling Together, a podcast about all things bikes, riding, and riding together. So we are back in the studio, we'll call it, right? Well, we'll call it, yeah.

Kristin 0:19

In our guest room that we call a studio.

Steve 0:21

Quite a long absence away.

Kristin 0:24

I still can't believe we were gone for three weeks.

Steve 0:27

Yeah, it turns out that's a long time.

Kristin 0:29

Oh, it is, but it also went by very quickly. Even the members of my team at the agency were like, I kind of can't believe it. It was three weeks. So time flies when you're having fun. And riding bikes. And yeah, and the snow is gone and almost gone. And I think we're well, judging from the reaction when I sent out an email newsletter last week uh to the number of point appointments that have filled your schedule. Brains are thinking about getting back on the bike.

Steve 1:03

Three days of 60s to even 70 degrees at the end of last weekend. Yes. And the the correct timing of that newsletter getting everybody sort of reminding about that. And that was just the combination that bam, I think my March regular schedule's full um for the for the rest of the month. So Yeah.

Kristin 1:22

I'm I'm not even going to pretend it was some kind of like marketing genius that I sent it out when I did.

Steve 1:28

I just was like No, everything just came together for that.

Kristin 1:31

It just needs to go. It needs to go. Send it out. So um, and I think it's a good which brings us to our topic for today, which is we're actually going to be talking about upgrades you can make to your bicycle that will get you the best bang for your buck. Because, you know, I mean, you have a bike and there's some things you can do to it at this time of year that don't necessarily, especially in the north, are pulling out their bikes after a very cold, snowy winter in the northeast here.

Steve 2:04

Not so much in the west, but um, yeah, and so things people are starting to really think about their bikes and getting them ready, and then maybe any changes they've been thinking about doing.

Kristin 2:16

Exactly.

Steve 2:16

But first, but first, but first, okay.

Kristin 2:19

Okay, we had on our episode with Kelly from NEYC we talked about uh the bikes that kids racing in the league needed, and she said we generally recommend you avoid bikes from big box stores.

Steve 2:35

And that is a correct general generalization.

Kristin 2:40

And we have um a girl who started following us, Zoe MTB, and she replied to a little reel that I sent out I won the NYCA series riding a Walmart bicycle. And the minute she said it, I knew what bike she was talking about. Yep. And I also want to note that that um when I edited that clip with Kelly, I specifically made sure that it didn't say big box or Walmart bike because of the bike that Zoe is riding, and that is the Ozark Trail.

Steve 3:14

The Ozark Trail. The the little Ozark Trail, the 24-inch.

Kristin 3:18

Right. So I want to talk about the Ozark Trail. Yep. Um, because this is a line of bicycles, mountain and gravel, that Walmart is putting out there at a very low cost. Correct, yeah. And I want to say that in a positive way.

Steve 3:37

Yeah, absolutely. Right? Because because but then we have to talk about the caveats about Zoe's bike.

Kristin 3:44

Yeah, so let's let's start with Zoe's bike. Okay. Um, because we did she has an active Instagram and we did take a look at her bike. So let's talk about Zoe's bike.

Steve 3:52

So she has the the the Ozark Trail. This is a full in this particular case, it's a full suspension mountain bike. It does come in a small 24-inch wheel size and then a normal 29. Right. 24-inch full suspension mountain bikes for kids, there are they are out there, but they are rare. Yeah. And they can be quite expensive.

Kristin 4:13

Right.

Steve 4:13

And this bike was $298.

Kristin 4:16

So out of the box.

Steve 4:17

Out of the box. Out of Walmart. Right.

Kristin 4:19

$298.

Steve 4:20

Yeah, I believe the $29 version might be $150 to $200 more.

Kristin 4:23

Okay.

Steve 4:25

Um, and now she did not uh she was not riding the stock out of the box bike. Um, certainly not, you know, winning the Nica series. So, you know, just looking at all the pictures and some of her posts and everything, she had upgraded the pedals, the stem, the handlebars, the tires, the brake rotors.

Kristin 4:49

When we say she, we're probably talking about her parents. You don't know Zoe. She's little. She's as we talked about, she's young. Right.

Steve 4:56

So I said the brake rotors, likely the brakes, I couldn't quite tell. The drivetrain, uh, so the the the shifters and the and the derailer and maybe the cassette and chain, the crankset, the front fork, the rear shock, and then to top it all off, she c had custom CNC machined pivot rocker arms made for the bike. Now I'm guessing the family probably knows somebody who does this.

Kristin 5:20

Yeah, exactly.

Steve 5:22

So that's a lot of stuff. Now, like so like the drivetrain, she put on a micro shift acolyte drivetrain, very, very cheap drivetrain, okay, which works quite well. Yeah. So it's not like this was uh necessarily an expensive upgrade, but certainly better than what came on it.

Kristin 5:41

Okay.

Steve 5:42

Um so nothing that the the well, except for the stem, I think, was like an NV STEM that somebody probably gave her. Um I don't I didn't see anything that was a high-priced item, maybe except for the tires. And we're gonna talk, and tires is something we're gonna talk about later. Right. Um, but other than that, right. So the thing is is that again, it's because it's hard to find a starting platform in that size. So little. Yep. Right, even when you start at $298 and you add in these things, you are still well, well below the price of many other of the the um offerings out there. Of an equivalent bike, of a 24-inch full suspension. Right, exactly.

Kristin 6:26

And the thing about the Ozark Trail that I find exciting is that if the biggest challenge of getting people into cycling is the cost of entry. Right. Right? Um and so if a bike, if a manufacturer, like a retailer like Walmart, with all of its locations and all of its distribution you know, uh power, can get people on bicycles that can be upgraded to some extent, that is good for the industry because that person at some point is going to move up to another bicycle. And Zoe has as she's gotten bigger and bigger, and she's got yeah, she's gone to a bigger bike.

Steve 7:17

Yep.

Kristin 7:17

Um, so like I just really am excited about this. I'm excited that they are bringing out these bicycles because I mean we talk about it even with uh the large bike chain here in New England, right? Without them, they get a lot of people on bikes, they get a lot of kids on bikes, they get a lot of people on bikes, and then some of those people graduate to Steve the bike guy. Right, right? Some of them don't, and that's okay. You could ride an Ozark trail forever, or you may decide, but it's getting more people on bicycles, and that is ultimately the biggest challenge of this industry is how to get more people on bicycles at lower cost.

Steve 8:01

Yes, at lower cost and without with quality, right?

Kristin 8:05

I'm really glad that Zoe uh gave a shout out and said hello and started following us because you know, just seeing also what she could do with that bike, I think was really interesting.

Steve 8:16

Absolutely, yeah.

Kristin 8:17

Yeah. Okay. Well, that actually brings us to our topic. There are two things with upgrades that I always wonder about. Number one is can a bike even accommodate an upgrade? And then at some point, when does it make sense to get a new bike or get a higher level bike?

Steve 8:38

So, and this comes down to when you're buying a bike, also, is sort of that initial purchase thought. Are you buying the bike for the frame set or are you buying the bike for the parts? You know, and a lot of manufacturers will make bike brands, they'll make a bike, they'll they'll take the same frame and they'll increase the level and quality of the parts to a certain extent. Yep. Right. And let's say it's their aluminum frame, and then they'll move to the carbon frame as the price points go up, but they re-back down, they'll start with a lower end group set and start moving up from there. So you have a situation a lot of times where there's overlap where you'll have the lower spec frame with high quality parts, right? Yeah, with quality quality parts better than the say starting point of the carbon frame.

Kristin 9:32

Okay.

Steve 9:33

Um, and so yeah, you have to really sort of that is it is usually always better to buy the best chassis, we'll call it if you can, the frame. The frame. Right. Okay. With with road bikes and and gravel bikes, it's gonna, you know, it's a little bit simpler with the frame and the fork. Yeah. Um, and then with mountain bikes, it gets a little bit more complicated because not only are you buying the frame, but you really have to look at the suspension. If it's full suspension, the rear shock, and then of course the fork. And because those parts are expensive, a lot of times it makes sense to get the better quality of the frame and the the suspension up front, and then you can do upgrades on that. Because it you because sure you can upgrade your suspension fork, but that is now really it is much costlier than it would be to get it with the bike.

Kristin 10:34

Got it. To get a bike with the right fork for you rather than to save a little money and then try to replace like how much is a fork? Like, how much is a suspension for it?

Steve 10:44

Well, a fork can be a thousand dollars.

Kristin 10:46

Oh, okay.

Steve 10:47

Um so spoiled easily. So, and you're certainly looking if if you were going to upgrade your fork, right? It's it would be very rare to spend under when I'm talking brand new, not used, um $550 to $600. Okay. Like I mean, under that, and you're probably it's probably not that much of an upgrade that it might not be worth it.

Kristin 11:12

Okay.

Steve 11:12

Yeah.

Kristin 11:13

Yeah.

Steve 11:13

So front forks are expensive, and then rear shocks, um, three to five hundred dollars.

Kristin 11:18

Okay. You're definitely gonna have to lead this uh this conversation.

Steve 11:24

Uh I guess we can start talking about the level of parts and just sort of a general knowledge base about the type of parts.

Kristin 11:34

I have a question about the word part versus component. Okay. And the reason I have that question is because I was writing something up for you and I went to look it up. And my understanding is, and so maybe we may we might be squishing these words together, using them wrong. Yeah. My understanding is a part is like the screws, the nuts and the bolts and stuff like that. And a component is like the shifter, the the cassette, the like that kind of thing. So how do you got how do you define part versus component? Or are they the same?

Steve 12:10

So I so component is a better word in this case. Okay. However, part is certainly perfectly usable. And I think just for the ease of a saying part versus component, we're gonna say part.

Kristin 12:23

Well, it was so funny because I was like, oh, talk to Steve about upgrading your parts.

Steve 12:28

Components is where I would normally use there. Yes.

Kristin 12:31

Okay.

Steve 12:31

Right? But yeah, and when I and we're so when we say part here, we're we're really gonna mean like every single thing that possibly could go on a bicycle. All right, we're just gonna put into a one big bin of parts. Okay. Okay.

Kristin 12:47

Some components.

Steve 12:48

Yeah. So heavy steel, cheap parts on even say even big box store bikes, right? Okay. And and in some cases lower end quality bikes, those parts are not only are they way, way heavier, but they actually are not as durable. They will bend easier, they will break easier than a very light aluminum part or carbon fiber part.

Kristin 13:14

Okay, and and are you talking about cassettes?

Steve 13:18

No, no, like anything, like say handle handlebar stems, cranksets, all that kind of stuff. Parts of a derailer. Yep. And and that's because those lightweight uh aluminum carbon parts have been significantly engineered and tested over and over and over again to get to where they are, to make them so they're actually both light and strong.

Kristin 13:44

Okay.

Steve 13:45

Okay, so there's sort of this um and then that's why they cost what they do. So you sort of this graph, you look at sort of strength versus cost, it goes up and up and up. And then you get to a point where that graph starts coming back down again. And that's because you get to such a high level of or low level of weight that they're trying to just m create the lightest part possible, okay, that the durability starts to plummet again.

Kristin 14:13

Oh.

Steve 14:14

Yeah. So um, because it's in some cases the parts are designed for race day only, they're designed for limited use, they're designed for people who, you know, if it breaks, you replace it, I don't care, type of situation.

Kristin 14:27

Is there, I do find with all things bicycle, is that there are, and I think we've talked about in this past, right? There's big jumps in quality for not that much money. Yes. And then we get to a point where we're spending a lot of money on a bike, on a component with minimal return.

Steve 14:47

Yes, that that is absolutely that is a and does that happen when it goes like this? That is a great point. No, that's actually below that.

Kristin 14:52

Oh, okay.

Steve 14:53

Yeah, so that is a great point. And that is that is the biggest concern I have when trying to sell bikes, is you never you don't want the person to shortchange themselves for we'll call it minimal dollars, but I I hate saying that because I don't want to downplay the significance of money to the to the buyer.

Kristin 15:17

I don't know that everyone who knows you knows the level of your frugality. No, your baseline frugality, yeah, that you don't take it lightly when someone spends money because your base frugality is like making sure that that money has the most you calculate things on a cost per basis to an almost um pathological level. So, you know, it's just that goes into all of these conversations I think you have.

Steve 15:46

That leads us into the first aspect of upgrading, and that is weight. Yes. And so I'm sh most people have heard this, but if you haven't, there's a term called weight weenies. There is even an entire website that's been around for 20 plus years called waitweenies.com, I believe it is. What? And it is all about making you know, getting your bike lighter, it is about making putting on lighter parts. What's the lightest part for this? What's the lightest part for that? Okay. Um so the whole Wait Weenie scene has really been subdued uh of late, right? It's not people don't consider it as important, although we're gonna talk about how that's coming back around, that things have now gotten too heavy, and now people are like, wait a minute, let's roll this back.

Kristin 16:36

Okay.

Steve 16:36

Okay. A lot of times though you know, people were looking, this is a case where people were looking to to just get lighter, not necessarily any performance just diff difference.

Kristin 16:46

Yep, yep.

Steve 16:47

Right. And and and I often heard, not so much right now as the weight winning you know system has gone down, but um, is that people will say, Oh, you know, I'll get this this the seat post I'm looking at, it's 140 grams lighter. Is that gonna make a difference? No, it's not right. No, you won't you won't notice a thingle thing.

Kristin 17:07

I was gonna say, like, what is 140 grams? Give me something that's like 140 grams?

Steve 17:13

Yeah. So a pound is 459 grams.

Kristin 17:17

Oh my gosh. Okay, got it.

Steve 17:21

I'm sorry, 454.59, I believe it is. Okay, it's a pound.

Kristin 17:24

It's a pound. Okay.

Steve 17:26

I like I so I always always tell people that that the a bike is the sum of its parts. Yeah. And if you're going to try to lose weight, chipping away at it 100 grams here and 100 grams there is not you're never gonna feel that. It's not gonna make a difference. So you want to go for the big weight items, the big savings that you can first. Yes. Right, that you're gonna potentially feel, and we'll talk about those. Yep. And then otherwise, if you're when you start getting into this this part here, this part here, that little savings, little savings, try to collect those and then put them on your bike. Just so there's a sense of change.

Kristin 18:10

So you actually right, you add up with those grams to make something.

Steve 18:14

If somebody chips away at lightening their bike and over time they end up saving three pounds, is the bike going to be different from when they started to the end? Yes. Will they know it? No, they won't because they chipped away at it, they'll never have a sense that there's any difference of what with that bike. But if you just take off three pounds from a road bike just instantly, yeah, you're gonna feel that, right? And you'll be like, oh, this is like it's she feels so like wow, as it just kind of zips up the hill a little bit better and so forth like that.

Kristin 18:48

It is funny that I think it's a um ritual like shaking hands or saying hello, that when a bunch of bike people get together, they lift up each other's bikes.

Steve 19:01

Oh, yeah, everybody's lifts up, right? Right. And it and it is also funny. How heavy is this, right? I don't know. You think about how much we as people weigh, yes, and then even how much our water bottles weigh, that we're talking with bikes a lot of times, two, three, four, five pound savings.

Kristin 19:17

Yes.

Steve 19:18

You're like, well, that's like, look at the whole system weight here, rider and bike, that is nothing. But it it actually kind of is in many regards.

Kristin 19:26

Yeah.

Steve 19:26

But so, but this is why the weight of bikes the the concern for that has sort of gone down. Because it isn't as big of a deal as people have been making it in most cases, right? Um, but at the same time, what has happened now is that bikes have gotten kind of really heavy.

Kristin 19:51

All bikes or mountain bikes? I mean, have road bikes gotten heavy. So yeah, let's talk.

Steve 19:54

So let's talk about road bikes.

Kristin 19:56

How much should a bike weigh?

Steve 19:57

So in the early, like or side should say, yeah, the like the mid-mid-teens, early mid-teens. Okay, yep. Road bikes had probably like a an average road bike, a mid-level road bike, I should say, was getting down sub 18 pounds easily, and people were were building 15-pound bikes all the time.

Kristin 20:13

Okay.

Steve 20:14

And then we had disc brakes come in. So disc brakes, now the shifters were heavier, the calipers were heavier, you added rotors, but now with the wheels were heavier because you can no longer do um radio lace spokes, you have to cross them once again.

Kristin 20:30

Okay.

Steve 20:30

So everything got heavier there. Then um, then what happened is that tires began getting wider. Okay. Now, this was a good thing, yes, because it was more comfort and without less without increased rolling resistance, as it turns out. Yep. Um, but they were heavier.

Kristin 20:48

Okay.

Steve 20:48

Um, and then you started having all this integration, hoses down through the top, like through the stem and all that stuff. Those stems were heavier, those handlebars were heavier, those headsets were bigger and heavier. Okay. So, and then carbon, and then carbon, deep carbon wheels, when they first came out, they were actually quite heavy. Um, so road bikes got heavy. I mean, all of a sudden you were seeing high-end, nice road bikes weighing 20 pounds. Oh, 20. Yeah. And so that has started to reel back a little bit with both the engineering of the frame, the frames becoming quite light. What was once just like um though the the weight of the road bike frames existed back then, but it was significant cost to get that, not just a production frame. It was very um uh sort of boutique um situation.

Kristin 21:49

I have a question about disc brakes, which might be a non sequitur. Um I I have seen some articles recently about how people are saying disc brakes. On road bikes were a mistake.

Steve 22:03

Oh.

Kristin 22:03

I have you seen that?

Steve 22:07

Yeah, I guess.

Kristin 22:09

I think it's died down a little bit. I feel like I just saw an article about it.

Steve 22:14

Oh, you might have. I mean, were they a mistake? No. And for the and the reason is so I'm going to say yes and no here. That's fine.

Kristin 22:24

No, yes and no is fine. I mean, there's there's clearly something driving people saying, I want my what were those called? Calipers. Calipers.

Steve 22:31

I want the calipers back. So what disc brakes really did is they opened up the frame designs for these big tires. Yes. You know, a lot of performance road bikes now come out of the box with 32 millimeter tires. So huge. Which which is yeah, which is huge, right? Um and really comfortable. Um so it did that. And the the other aspect that disc brakes allowed were these lighter weight carbon wheels. So which, you know, when you get really deep for aerodynamics, and aerodynamics means so much in road riding, that in order to have a suitable braking surface on carbon, uh they got heavy and they were never really that great with braking. Okay. And also the carbon does not like the heat that's built up from the brake pad. So and they could delaminate, and that was an issue all the time. So that's what disc brakes did for road bikes. They are more power in many cases, and a more complication and more weight than a road bike needs, and that's why you hear that disc brakes really don't I mean my take on it, my my hat take on it, is when you moved me from caliper brakes to disc brakes, that was my Linsky.

Kristin 23:59

And I did a PMC in the rain. And I never looked back at my brakes. My brakes were fab. I got to the end of that ride, 90 miles in the rain. All my friends were complaining about how their hands hurt because they all still had. I was fairly new, you know, early not early adopter, but nobody else had disc brakes amongst my friends. And I was like, I of all the things I have to complain about, my hands are not one of them. I remember that. Never felt any concern that my bike was not going to be able to stop. And so for me, I mean, I've read the articles and I've been like, I don't, I don't get it because I love my disc brake, love my disc brakes.

Steve 24:41

So that's my you know, I mean I have my I have a particular road bike, and this is component specific and specific, and also really kind of the levers match to the to the rim calipers. Yes. This is a rim brake bike. Though that that bike breaks more powerfully than any disc brake disc brake road bike that I have ever tried.

Kristin 25:05

Okay.

Steve 25:06

Um but it doesn't also doesn't quite have the modulation, I guess, that disc brakes do. And of course it doesn't have as good of foul weather braking.

Kristin 25:17

Well, and that's really where the difference was was the foul. I mean, it would it was pouring. Yeah, it was torrential rain. Okay, sorry.

Steve 25:23

They they do make what are called long-reach calipers. You could theoretically you can actually have a rim-braked bike with 32 millimeter tires. So now a lot of endurance road bikes nowadays will fit will fit 38, they're even up, maybe even up to 40. That's gonna get a little weird to have a caliper fit that. Yeah. Um, and so I mean, it's it is it's a case where you that's just not going back. Okay. Yeah. All right. Uh, mountain bikes.

Kristin 25:55

Well, I was gonna say one question on road bikes. What would you say is what would you say a road bike, not I'm not I'm gonna say like a performance road bike, like your your your road bike that somebody would ride every week with their group or whatever. What should that weigh? What's like a good target for the weight of a bicycle?

Steve 26:15

Well, should weigh is a hard answer.

Kristin 26:18

I knew it was, but you know, somebody's gonna come in and be like, what should my bike weigh?

Steve 26:21

Like I mean, I'd like to I like to see road bikes weigh under 20 pounds.

Kristin 26:27

Okay, see, that's a great answer. Good job.

Steve 26:29

Before you add up accessories, yeah.

Kristin 26:31

Okay, all right, mountain bikes. These really have gotten heavy.

Steve 26:35

These have gotten heavy, yes. Oh, absolutely. So, you know, the the the cases where just riders have been doing more and more and more with their mountain bikes, and the industry has responded. Um, you know, people are doing bigger hits and bigger drops and faster berms, and that the the and the faster they go, the faster they need to slow down. So the brakes have gotten bigger. Yep. Uh the pivot points have gotten larger, the bearings in those pivots have gotten bigger, um, the rocker arms have gotten stronger, the fork legs have gotten bigger, tires have gotten both wider and like much heavier, denser, stronger casings. And so, I mean, mountain bikes now just exploded above 30 pounds. Um, and you know, mid-30s for a trail bike is can be just very, very normal nowadays.

Kristin 27:29

Which back to your when you think about how much a body weighs, if you're a smaller rider and you don't weigh that much, you you're you're pushing a good percentage of your body weight with that thing, right? Like my littler, yeah, my littler friends. Now they're a hundred pounds and their bike is 35. Like oh, yeah, hugely problem.

Steve 27:51

The smaller you are, the more this does uh affect you. And you can feel it. Okay. If you take a mountain bike and you let's say you're just climbing up a fire road or even a single track trail, and you're just you're just kind of grinding away and climbing, honestly, that weight sort of disappears. You don't, it's it's not that big of a deal, especially let's let's talk about uh a bike, you know, um a bike that's still an efficient climber, right? And many, many good long travel, heavier bikes are nowadays. But it is in this can so this kind of depends on where you ride, but just that overall, then let's just say twisty, tight, single track, where you're kind of going up and down some rocks through routes, you want to flick the bike around, you're popping off little rocks and everything. Yeah, the lighter the bike, then I mean, if you go from a 35-pound bike to a 25-pound bike, you're going to really notice that. You're gonna be like, wow, this thing is so plateful. This thing just wants to pop off every rock. Yeah, you know, it like it just flies up the hills, like the little quick, like like punchy climbs and technical climbs, especially. Yeah. Um, yeah, there's a there's a huge difference there. So I think now there's a little bit of a rollback, or should say, oh, maybe bikes of mountain bikes have gotten a little too heavy, and maybe the industry's now starting to think we need to start not making them heavier. Um and consumers, I think, are starting to say this is getting a lot out of hand.

Kristin 29:30

And we're seeing, I mean, Scott has rolled back the genius, right? Well, the geni which was a heavier had gotten really heavy.

Steve 29:40

The the the genius had gotten much heavier than it used to be. Okay. Yes. And so, well, let's talk about why a lot of bikes have gotten heavier, I guess, real quick.

Kristin 29:48

Yes.

Steve 29:48

They unheavier because uh, in order to get the same travel in the fork, all the fork makers bumped up their their sizing one, basically, than what they used to offer. So the forks got heavier by many, many easy cases, easily a pound. Okay. A full pound for the fork, right? Um, so a 150 travel fork six years ago compared to now could have could have been a a pound lighter. Oh wow. Um, and then you talk about again those pivot points got heavier. Um, a lot of the material in the frames got heavier so that they're stronger. Yeah. Um then some of the integration in the in the front has added to that. Um, and then a lot of it can be down to tires as well. Um I want to talk about tires when we talk about upgrades. Yeah. So yeah.

Kristin 30:43

All right. So again, let's say now I know this is gonna be very hard to answer. Um, so maybe it's just by category. How much would your target weight be for say a cross-country bike like mine? Is mine a cross-country bike? Am I yours? You're not using the right term for that.

Steve 31:03

Yeah, you can call yours a cross-country. You can call yours, you can absolutely call yours a cross country.

Kristin 31:08

Oh, good.

Steve 31:08

No, one and you can 100% call it. There is this term called downcountry.

Kristin 31:13

Yes.

Steve 31:13

We've was it was this narrow, tiny little slice of the pie, and a lot of people hated the term, and it was starting to go away, but it might now be coming back because uh because that whole segment of cross country slash down country is has a it's gonna have a huge resurrection here. Okay. Um so uh yes, cross country.

Kristin 31:37

Okay, but what would be a good target weight for my for my bicycle for which is in that cross-country?

Steve 31:43

So to get all right, so in cross country, to get sub-25 pounds takes a lot of money. Okay. Okay, totally doable though. Yes. So somewhere between 25 to say, let's say 29.

Kristin 32:00

Okay, would be a good target. All right. Yep.

Steve 32:04

Um yeah. How much does mine weigh? So like so an entry level cross-country should yeah, should not weigh more than 29.

Kristin 32:11

Okay, great. I love that answer.

Steve 32:13

And you and and you know, if you're and if you're looking at different bikes, the closer you can get, I'd say to 25, the better.

Kristin 32:20

Okay. Yeah. Great.

Steve 32:22

Yeah, which is which is light. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristin 32:26

Um wait, I have another question. We talked about we talked about the people picking up the bikes. How accurate do you think people are when they pick up a bike on what they think it weighs? Um yeah. Do you think people can really tell, is my question.

Steve 32:41

Can people like pick up a bike and go, oh yeah, this is you can pick up multiple bikes and and really notice a difference between the bigger.

Kristin 32:49

You can notice a difference, but I'm just curious. Like, first of all, I think it's mostly men picking up bikes. I don't think I've ever seen a woman pick up somebody else's bike to see how much it weighs. Just saying. But I also wonder how if if how if they know they're just picking up bikes. Oh, yeah, that seems really good.

Steve 33:10

Is this a carnival uh sideshow trick here where you have to get the weight?

Kristin 33:14

Yeah, I don't know, but it's just like it's such a funny little ritual when a bunch of guys stand around and they're all like picking up each other's bikes. I have never witnessed that. I'm gonna have to watch more carefully this summer, but I'm fairly sure I've never stood around with a bunch of women looking at bikes and had one of them pick it up on me. It's a men thing. I do think it is. And then I we pick up bikes. And then you go, Do you actually know what you're looking for? If you're just like, oh yeah, you figure that's like whatever you do, because I can like, you know, I'm I'm not talking you. I'm talking men.

Steve 33:48

Yes, but well, I'm gonna say there they're a lot of them are like me. You know, you go, I can go up and I go look at a bike, oh, this is pretty nice. And I pick it up, go, whoa, why is this so heavy? Right? I don't know what it weighs, but I know that it's heavier than it should be, all things considered for what it's for, and that kind of thing, right? And same with vice versa, where you look at a bike and you pick it up, you're like, Oh, that is that's light light. Yeah, yeah. So the ally, the ally just went out that went out the shop this week was like that. Yes, yeah, it was that was light. She's light. Actually, I didn't do a final weighing on that. Shoot.

Kristin 34:24

Lewis, weigh your bike. Okay. So do you want to go over um anything else on components? Or you want to talk about the differences in components? Because here's my thing.

Steve 34:36

Yeah, let's talk about the differences.

Kristin 34:38

It's very hard for the average person to look at a bicycle, look at the you know, cassette, yep, and go that one's they just they look the same, right? So, so what should what are the differences?

Steve 34:54

And this is exactly how bike manufacturers get away with price points. Because, yes. Okay.

Kristin 35:03

They're all so pretty and shiny.

Steve 35:05

Let's let's talk about the come the the really specifically like components by the by the drivetrain components. Yes. All right, and then we'll get into um actual like things you can do to what you should look for to upgrade your own bike. Okay. Okay. So, like, all right, let's talk about the main two component brands, Shrimano and SRAM. Yeah. Of course, they have different price points, different tiers of their comp of their components and their group sets. Yes. And what you get, and what that difference generally is, is you'll move from like um stamp steel cages in the derailer to aluminum to carbon. Um, you'll get bushings versus bearings, um, you'll get pins versus rivets in some cases. You get hollow aluminum versus solid aluminum uh or more machining of the aluminum.

Kristin 35:58

Okay.

Steve 35:58

And plastic versus metal. Right? So all of those different material changes make the component more expensive to make and more expensive to purchase. Got it. In a lot of cases, though, it also makes the component more durable. This is a case where the component gets lighter and more durable.

Kristin 36:19

Okay.

Steve 36:20

Um, in that in that process. Um, so yeah, like as you were saying, this is where a lot of bike makers, you know, name a name whatever brand, because they all do it. They'll put on a higher spec rear derailer because it's a thing that people see. Meanwhile, they're using the lowest level cassette, the lowest level shifter, because a lot of times you just don't really notice that. Yeah. It's usually like the the models hidden under the brake lever, so you don't even notice what model it is. Um, they'll use like a different crank and so forth. So they're trying to that they're they use that derailler as a visible flashpoint to sell the bike while keeping all the rest of the pretty part.

Kristin 37:10

They they make higher ends. Right.

Steve 37:13

And then a common thing you'll see here is with the Shimano's group sets. So with the 12 speak group sets, you have XTR, then XT, then SLX, then Dior. Okay. And so a lot of times you'll see an XT rear derailer, right? Which has super brand recognition as being nice, and it is. Yep. Meanwhile, the cassette is Dior, the shifter is Dior, the crank set is Dior, maybe SLX. So the rest of the stuff on the bike is lower.

Kristin 37:41

And that would be that would be something, again, it's not gonna be obvious as you look at the bike, but that would be on the specs of the bike. You'd be able to it it would be lower. Or it would be listed in the specs of the bike. It would be listed on the specs of the bike. Correct. Okay. What if you buy a bike that has, let's say, so XT is the XTR is the top. Okay, XTR. Say it has an XT, you said cassette, and a Dior front crank. Yes. Right. Can you swap out? Can you put an XT on that bike?

Steve 38:16

You can, but this, so this is where when you're looking at upgrades, you have to say, why am I upgrading this? Okay. Yeah. So for SRAM, their mountain bike hierarchy goes from XX to XO to GX to NX to SX.

Kristin 38:35

What order is that?

Steve 38:36

Was that from from from best to worst? Well, best to lowest.

Kristin 38:40

Okay. Okay.

Steve 38:41

Actually, for SRAM, we can say best to worst.

Kristin 38:45

Wow.

Steve 38:46

So yeah, and and and like SX. SX, they came out with that to try to get into a lower priced uh well to have bike companies spec SX SX to have a lower priced bike. Okay. In my opinion, SX has no business being on a mountain bike.

Kristin 39:05

Oh. Okay.

Steve 39:06

It is fine for very, very, very light trail usage. I well, yeah. Okay. It does not have really, it is so fragile. And it is the the derailers are are sloppy, they are hard to adjust, especially after they get used for a little bit, um, because they just have all of this play and slop in them.

Kristin 39:30

Okay.

Steve 39:31

And NX, the crank, oh, and I guess a lot of people have actually broken or bent SX cranks. Oh. So you actually will find most bike makers have realized this and have stopped specing SX. Occasionally you see an SX shifter. Um, sometimes the crank you will rarely ever ever see an SX derir derailer nowadays because they were just garbage.

Kristin 39:58

Okay.

Steve 39:58

Um, NX is can be iffy. It does not have the the the more you use it, it is fine when brand new, but it quickly develops a lot of slop in it, and it's a nightmare for shops because you're like, I don't want to replace this derailer, which technically has nothing wrong with it, but it's the slop in it is so bad now that it is just getting the shifting to work to a to a point where it's it's acceptable is difficult. Okay. Um so if if you have an NX rear derailer or SX, upgrading to a GX derailleur can be worth it, or waiting till it's you're like it's kind of worn out now. And then don't get a replacement NX. If you had an NX, get a GX. It's not that much more money.

Kristin 40:46

And it's not a weight thing we're talking about, we're talking about a performance thing.

Steve 40:50

Yeah, obviously the the higher up you go and the better group sets, it is um it they do weigh less, but um, but this case, this is a real performance situation. So on lower spec'd bikes, um I prefer Shimano. So if I see if I if I saw two identical bikes basically and one and and one was spec with SRAM S NX and one was spec with Shimano Dior, I would go with the Shimano Dior one.

Kristin 41:19

Oh, okay. Can can you mix you can you can mix and match and SRAM? Yes.

Steve 41:25

Oh sh Shimano and SRAM. No, no, no, no, no, okay, you could you can kind of really put up say a SRAM crank and use it with a Shimano drivetrain. Yeah, you can get away with that. Okay. Um, but you can't mix deraillers, shifters. Um you can actually mix cassettes, to be fair. So I I wouldn't, but you can um now there's another another interesting part about so all of these group sets are 12 speed, and we're and we're talking mechanical here just for the moment. Just well for the moment. However, some of these group sets are now really um electronic only. So um but the Shimano 12 speed group sets have a 10 through 51 cassette, and there's an option for 10 through 50, 45. I'm sorry.

Kristin 42:20

You're talking about the number of the number of T.

Steve 42:23

So the smallest is 10 T, the largest is 51. So SRAM came out now. SRAM used to be 10 through 50. Shimano came out with their 10 through 51, and SRAM had to outdo them with 10 through 52.

Kristin 42:37

Okay.

Steve 42:37

Yeah. SRAM did their whole SRAM spleening thing, as I like to call it. Where they said, oh no, we had no idea they were gonna do 10 through 51, and our response has nothing to do with them doing 10 through 51. Of course it was, right? Because they didn't change anything other on the cassette other than changing the 50 to a 52 tooth cog. They didn't change the gear range at all. So, but on the lower end group sets for SRAM, they don't use their XD driver body. I know I'm getting a little technical here, which means that they have to use an 11 through 50. 11 through 50 cassette, actually, is what they use there, not 11 through 52. So your gear range is reduced on the lower end SRAM group set, 12 speed group sets, okay, that it's not on Shimano. Yeah, and that's a that's actually a big consideration.

Kristin 43:30

Right.

Steve 43:30

Yeah.

Kristin 43:31

Do you have um like mountain bike versus road bike a preferred manufacturer? Like, do you like SRAM for mountain and Shimano for road, or do you not?

Steve 43:46

No, I can I can go back and forth, but again, this inner you know, this this depends. As I said, entry level mountain bikes. If it's a if it's SRAM SX or NX, yeah, and this one is is Shimano Dior, I the Dior's okay. Um I you know it and but it comes down to and sometimes it comes down to yes, like but this is gonna the one with the NX is gonna just gonna be the better bike for you, even though I like the Dior a little better. That that might but there might be other aspects about the NX bike that I like better for a person.

Kristin 44:19

Okay. Um that's where you're going. It's about the whole, it's not about one specific part, it's about like as a whole, what is the best balance of price and performance? Yep. Um, and when you look at a bike, do you sometimes think about if it can incorporate future upgrades? Like, are there bikes that you just can't upgrade?

Steve 44:39

Yep. Um yeah, so uh most frames can be we'll say fully upgraded. Okay. All right. So there's where you get some limitations. Um, some entry-level mountain bikes don't have any ports or accommodations to put in a dropper post. So if it didn't come with a dropper post, now you can put in externally routed post, those are becoming few and far between, and the on the availability of those, you really want to try to avoid that.

Kristin 45:13

Okay.

Steve 45:14

So if you're looking at an entry-level mountain bike that does not have a dropper post, I would just make sure it's dropper ready. Right? So it has the it has the ports in the frame, and you can route a cable through the frame up to it to a dropper.

Kristin 45:28

Okay.

Steve 45:30

I I believe that most companies, you know, who were not in doing that have now started to.

Kristin 45:38

Oh, okay.

Steve 45:39

I mean, we we saw Trek and Specialized have issues with that in the past, but now that I think they're they've changed that. So um, but that's something to definitely look for.

Kristin 45:48

Okay.

Steve 45:49

The other is uh there's this there's this trend for entry-level mountain bikes to not use rear through axles. So almost every bike on the market now is gonna have a 148 by 12 rear through axle.

Kristin 46:06

Okay.

Steve 46:07

There is this standard called one, what's 141 millimeter? It is, it's it's like a pseudo-through axle. It's basically think about a quick release skewer with that tiny steel spindle. It's using that, 141 millimeters long, going through the frame as almost like a through axle would, but it's just so tiny and and spindly, and the frame can't take uh an upgraded wheel with you know that's 148 by 12.

Kristin 46:40

Anders old spark.

Steve 46:41

Anders old spark. Yes, it did. It did. And I thought frame manufacturer and I thought companies were gonna get had gone away from that. Yeah. And and then suddenly, what do I see? I see a whole bunch of of manufacturers of big brands starting to go back to that. Oh, it's because it's because of this um the cost of things. The cost of things has gotten a little out of hand.

Kristin 47:05

Yes.

Steve 47:06

And so this is sort of what I call the downsizing or the shrinkflation of bikes. Okay. Where they are holding the line on prices or maybe even rolling back prices a little bit. Right. And so that's the big thing that customers see, but they're downgrading the parts to that, you know, you would have gotten a better part in the past for that got it for that.

Kristin 47:29

And so the issue with that skewer is that it limits the upgrading of the wheel that you can get. You can't necessarily get any wheel because it doesn't have right what is what we would consider a standard through axle. Right.

Steve 47:44

Yeah.

Kristin 47:44

That's good to know. Okay.

Steve 47:47

So, and those those are the big things. I mean, everything else on the bike, I mean, the bottom bracket specs and the headset specs, and and especially like a lot of inexpensive mountain bikes, even what I would say expensive entry-level mountain bikes, you know, if they're full suspension and so forth, they come with these very cheap headset bearings that I don't like. They're not sealed cartridge. Um, but those can be upgraded, you know. So that's not a limited. It's really just not a limited.

Kristin 48:15

It's a question of how much you want to spend to upgrade things.

Steve 48:19

So, really, then what it comes down to is that geometry, right? You cannot upgrade your geometry. So if you have lousy, if you if your bike has lousy geometry to start with, there's nothing you can do about that. Right. So getting a bike that feels good to ride is is yeah.

Kristin 48:37

That's the no, you're right. It's like the location, location, location, right? Like you can't change the location of your house. You can change everything else about it. You can't really change the right, you can't change the chassis once you have that.

Steve 48:51

And then that's what drove me nuts about a lot of the uh we'll call you know, call those big box inexpensive bikes or or bikes, is that they always had really bad geometry. Good geometry doesn't cost money. The angles of which the factory welds the tubes and so forth doesn't cost any more money. It just takes forethought and and and a little bit of planning, and then they could just make a better bike from the start.

Kristin 49:18

Right.

Steve 49:18

They don't. They have super steep head tube angles and uh long stems.

Kristin 49:24

No bikes have gone before.

Steve 49:26

Right, exactly. Yeah, just copy somebody else's geometry.

Kristin 49:29

If you have can every bike um change out the the stem and the handlebar, or is that something also you should think about?

Steve 49:42

So the the answer used to be yes, okay, and now the answer is no. This more comes down to well, in some cases mountain bikes, but mostly road bikes.

Kristin 49:52

Okay.

Steve 49:53

Um, and that's because of the integration that's going on. So many companies now use um integration where all of the cables and the housings go down through the headset.

Kristin 50:05

Yeah.

Steve 50:06

And they use proprietary uh headset spacers and stems that match those, match the profile. So everything is a sleek look. So you can't in in some cases you can change it to any stem you want, but it's gonna kind of look ugly. It's not gonna look right. Yeah. Um, and it takes a it's it takes a bunch of planning and luck to get something to look a little bit. Right.

Kristin 50:31

Because that used to be, you know, the thing that, oh, we can put a different stem on to increase the you can use the.

Steve 50:38

You know, like the the the the bike brands will sell that stem in different lengths. Okay. So you can get the the the right you, you know, you get the right part, the right stem part for that in different lengths, but you can't put any stem you want to on there. Right. Um, and this really comes down to a problem if you need a stem that has a good amount of of um rise to it, because they don't sell them with rise. Um they only they're only gonna sell that same that same you generally negative six uh rise um and then just different lengths. So if you need you need a positive 12 to get the the bars up and everything, you're out of luck unless, of course, you just put up with that loss of the sleek look that they've got going on.

Kristin 51:23

That may have been why you bought the bike though, because you liked this you liked the sleek look. Right. Because it's cool, yeah. It's definitely um all right. You mentioned uh tires that you wanted to talk about.

Steve 51:33

Yeah, let's let's all right. Let's just let's finish this show up with getting into what are the things that you you know a lot of people look to upgrade on their bike and what are the what's the best bang for the bike and that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, tires. No tires number one, right? That is your contact with the ground, um, that is the the ride feel, the grip. Uh it's just the number one thing to upgrade on a bike.

Kristin 51:59

And the weight. I mean, we talked about how you up you changed out the tires on my mountain bike and dropped stuck.

Steve 52:07

Oh my gosh. I mean, okay, so there can easily be boy, in some cases, almost pushing two pounds of weight per tire between a cross-country tire and a downhill tire. Okay. Um, and besides the weight, the casing feel and the suppleness and so forth, all of that just makes it just adds to a different feel of the bike.

Kristin 52:38

Right.

Steve 52:40

I'm gonna I'm gonna say one thing here that I think has happened. So this is a case where myself, you know, and so many people as we grew up with the mountain bike growing up with the mountain bike evolution. Yeah, we learned on fully rigid bikes to ride, and then we had front forks, but they were 80 millimeters of travel, 60 millimeters of travel in some cases. Um so finesse was a big part of how we learned to ride. Right. And nowadays, people who are taking up mountain biking are learning on full suspension bikes, and there is a tendency, not everybody, but I do see this, there's a tendency to let the bike do a lot of work and basically just smash into things, right? And let the suspension do the work, and the lack of there's a little lack of finesse and what I call riding light. Yes, basically. So and so people who who run into things harder and ride heavy in the bike, they need these thicker casing tires to deal with that, or they're gonna get more flats.

Kristin 53:45

Okay.

Steve 53:46

Um, because I, you know, I think I run some of the the lightest cross-country tires sometimes, and I smash through rock gardens and do all sorts of uh technical rocky features, and I don't have any problems.

Kristin 54:05

Right. So I I believe it is a case so it's that technique versus correct uh equipment that even Kelly and I talked about on that past show about you know, really for say the NEYC kids, they can be at hardtails because it's really about learning how to ride the bike. The the the dual suspension's not gonna make that big of a difference for them.

Steve 54:27

I I having to prefer somebody learn to ride a bike on a hardtail to learn a little bit more of that finesse. Yes, but yeah, um, you know, and I see bike publications, bike magazines, they're reviewing bikes and they talk about how, well, this bike's a little let down by its casings or its tires, and it's because it's a Maxis XO Plus and not a downhill casing. And I was like, Wait, what what are you doing with your bike? Right? I mean, come on. Well, I mean now there is a purpose for downhill tires, yes, yeah. But they're you know, they're there for serious, hard hitting downhill riding.

Kristin 55:10

Right. And I would be the first to say the whole the whole time you're like, oh, and it's so light and you just jump off things. I I don't do any of that. I don't none of that.

Steve 55:19

Right, and that's and that's a and that's an aspect of what you're looking for in your tire. Yeah. Um, you know, and and then you know, it's and then it comes down to you know, you're looking at treads and you're looking at the compound. So rubber compound makes a big difference. A lot of times on roots and rocks, it is not the tread, it is this it is the stickiness of the rubber compound you're looking for. Okay. And you'll often see now that that tire makers have they'll call it soft, they'll call it ultra soft, right? They'll call you know, they'll so yeah, so there's different compounds, or they'll call it fast, that type of thing. Fast tires, if that's what it's labeled, are usually harder.

Kristin 55:52

Yep.

Steve 55:53

Um, so keep that in mind where you ride. Um, and then with road tires, they're most makers kind of have these two levels. I mean, they have a lot of different purposes, they'll have all seasons, yeah. But I'm gonna cut they'll have their upper echelon tire, and people just say that the the most popular tire in the market, the Continental Grand Prix 5000, right? That's sort of the benchmark ultimate road tire for most people. And then Continental will make this series where they have Grand Sport and they have Ultra Sport. They're roughly half the price, but they're actually really quite good. So um yeah, don't uh that that's um just something to take into account because tires have gotten really expensive. Yeah. And um it used to be that people were just cycling geeks, and everybody out there who's listening is gonna know we the grass is always greener with another tire.

Kristin 56:52

Oh, of course, right?

Steve 56:53

We are always trying different tires because you always think this tire is gonna be it's gonna give me something.

Kristin 57:00

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's where it sometimes gets with with upgrades where you're like chasing that perfection with any upgrade, whether it's tires or um all right, uh wheels.

Steve 57:11

Wheels, okay. Wheels are probably one of the most upgraded um parts on a bike. Really? Right, um, because you can drop uh pounds sometimes on a wheel. Um and and it makes a difference, uh, especially on a bike that you are constantly um getting up, slowing and getting up to speed with. So like mountain biking biking or cycle crosses, certainly, right? The lighter the wheel, the better it easier it is to get back up to speed. Okay. Right. Um you uh when it comes to road riding, wheel weight can make a big difference if you're saying on a race and you're finishing at the top of the climb.

Kristin 57:57

Okay.

Steve 57:58

But otherwise it's kind of been shown to be a wash. Oh. Uh, you know, if if you then you're going back down the other side of the of the mountain and the finish line is at the bottom, then the wheel weight there was negligible in terms of its own difference. Got it. Um it it does still add a very slight marginal gains to the feel of of how you like the bike, but yep.

Kristin 58:20

Okay.

Steve 58:21

Um yeah, so I mean, you know, and carbon wheels are obviously um the most popular option. Everyone wants carbon wheels. Uh in mountain biking, carbon wheels can actually be more durable than aluminum wheels. Okay. Because they can take an impact that would bend an aluminum rim, the carbon rim will shrug off. Okay. But there's that, but then there's that point, and we've talked about this before. There's that point where the aluminum will will dent and the carbon will crack, right? You get to that certain expression point. And and an aluminum rim, I see people come in all the time with all sorts of little dents and dings in their aluminum wheels, and they're and they're fine. Because if it's still holding the bead, it's it's fine. You can straighten some of those out a little bit if it's not holding the the tire bead anymore. Um, but uh that's that's why I mean people want the carbon rims because they are more durable and they're lighter.

Kristin 59:22

What was the wheel on my bike that got hit by a car when it was on the rack?

Steve 59:30

That was aluminum.

Kristin 59:31

That was aluminum. And do you remember what happened with it?

Steve 59:34

Yeah, we left it, it was really dented and kind of folded folded in a little bit. Yep. And we left it, and the tire did not lose inflation, we just left it there to see how long it would hold and it would held forever.

Kristin 59:44

It held forever. Yeah. I mean, obviously couldn't ride it, it was folded, but I would I remember being really impressed that the thing was still inflated. Okay, that was aluminum. That makes sense. Okay.

Steve 59:55

Um sometimes people upgrade their wheels for the hubs themselves. Okay. Uh whether they think they're getting faster rolling, which if you're going from a very low quality wheel to a high quality wheel, you will absolutely get you'll get a smoother, better, faster rolling. Yep. Um, and then sometimes with mountain bikes, it's it's the engagement points. So they want a faster engagement. And that is basically, I don't know if you're familiar with that, but that is how fast the pedal that the the power will engage to the rear cassette. Uh right? Okay. So it's sort of that degrees of engagement. And if you can imagine, there's a little bit as you start pedaling again. Yeah. There's a slight bit of movement before it actually starts pushing, and that's that's where the hub is engaging. Yeah. Right. And so some people want really, really fast.

Kristin 1:00:40

Got it.

Steve 1:00:42

Uh I personally am one who does not feel the need for super high engagement. Okay. Um but all right.

Kristin 1:00:51

Well, we talked about uh the shifters.

Steve 1:00:54

Um real real quick again on shifting. Okay. Sometimes if your derailer is good, the better shifter can make the bike the shifting feel snappier.

Kristin 1:01:07

Okay.

Steve 1:01:07

And I'll I'll give a good example here. The NX shifter from SRAM is plastic and the GX is metal, and it has a little crisper of a click. Uh and then especially the like the XO shifter is really, really crisp. Okay. So even sometimes um that can make your shifting feel better by upgrading your your shifter.

Kristin 1:01:26

Okay. I'm gonna skip brakes. We're gonna come back to brakes, but since you just talked about shifting, there's there's you've been talking mostly about mechanical shifting. Yeah. And then there's electronic shifting.

Steve 1:01:38

Okay. This could be a whole episode, so let's just do a quick summary for this. Very quickly, yes. Um electronic shifting isn't necessary, but everybody who has it would never get rid of it. And it is one of those cases, and I can't maybe you can kind of equate it to it it is just so nice to use. It's kind of like if you're a skier, right? Imagine just getting out on the trail the first thing in the morning, and it's perfect set corduroy, right? Nobody's been on it, or maybe like 18 inches of untouched powder, right? It's that kind of experience in terms of yes, it's nice, uh, and you and and it is sublime to to experience it. Yep, it is not necessary. Um, mechanical shifting can be really, really good. Yes, but would you like not want to go back again? Of course, you you would want that experience again.

Kristin 1:02:35

I mean, I have to say, for me, it feels necessary. Oh, you know what?

Steve 1:02:40

Actually, let's talk about why it's necessary for you. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I you know what? It is a it is a feature of your hands. You're absolutely right. Okay.

Kristin 1:02:50

Woo!

Steve 1:02:51

Nope. You know what? So it's all right. So let's talk about the mountain bike shifter.

Kristin 1:02:55

Let's talk about my little hands.

Steve 1:02:57

And your little hands.

Kristin 1:02:57

And my little hands and the pains I have regularly through my elbows and my and my thumbs.

Steve 1:03:08

Can put a lot of stress on those muscles. On my little hands. Up through your forearm. Yes. And electronic shifting solves that.

Kristin 1:03:17

Electronic shifting has been a game changer for me. I I will say. I don't know about whether and I I really need it on my gravel, like the other. Well, no, actually, even my gravel bike, because it used to be with the mountain bike, it was the the pressure of the the push of my of my thumb. And on my road bike, it was the swing, the arm swing, right? Of the Shimano levers that would leave me um feeling ouchy. And in both cases, when you switched me to electronic shifting, it made a world of difference for the my ability to ride for a longer amount of time, my ability to not have pain afterwards. And it's when I get on my um fat bike that I'm like, oh right, mechanical, crazy, right? Like it just I'm reminded to your point. Can I ride that bike? Yes. For the amount of times I ride it, mechanical is perfect. I don't ride it enough for it to need an upgrade. Right.

Steve 1:04:27

Um, but yeah, I would not, I would not go back to mechanical Mechanical shifting can also have a slight bit of user input finesse to it. And so sometimes people come in and they say their shifting's not working right, and I I look at it, I might make a small well, sometimes I even I'll just take it out and I'll test ride it outside, and I'm like, this is perfect. Like, this is as good as it's got. Maybe it's like 12-year-old, you know, Shimano 105 or something. And I'm like, this is right. This is the and it's it's just not going to get better. No, they just don't understand that this older shifter, you it needs a slight overthrow, right? In in terms of the downshifting. Yes, all that kind of little bit of stuff that you know they think as soon as it clicks, it should shift and they can let go of the shifter, right?

Kristin 1:05:20

And that's but in fact, you actually have to push it a little bit more and wait for it to do itself.

Steve 1:05:25

No, I could tune that out, but then it won't work the other direction. So yeah, yeah.

Kristin 1:05:29

Yeah. I think it's it's an interesting um upgrade. Um, because again, is it essential to all? No. Yeah. Is it essential to me?

Steve 1:05:38

I mean, I did get I did get the mountain bike wireless shifting within weeks of it being introduced to the public. This is like 2019 now. Yeah. And then I did win my first mountain bike race on it a month later. Well, and you it was muddy, and it was it was so muddy and it was so sticky, and I actually credit that win so Somewhat to that electronic shifting because it just made I didn't have to I didn't think about the shifting, whatever. It just worked.

Kristin 1:06:06

Yeah. I mean, you also put electronic dropper on my bout bike recently, and I will say it is similarly beneficial to me, right? Like because you had switched me to the wolf tooth light action leverage.

Steve 1:06:23

That was a that was highly recommend that lever for mechanical.

Kristin 1:06:27

That was an excellent upgrade, right? From the standard dropper to the wolf tooth. That was a nice light, because again, I was still I was having the same issue of of strengths, but I do, yeah. Those are those were good ones for me. Okay. All right. Do you want to go back to brakes? Sure, we'll go back to brakes. Because I know you've got like fancy Magura brakes.

Steve 1:06:48

Oh no, I have the scram gura we're gonna call it now.

Kristin 1:06:52

That's right. Or for a while you had for a while you had again, you had Magura brakes, and I don't know even know what that is and why why you why you liked them.

Steve 1:07:07

I well, I only like them because I just particularly had I had this particular different lever design that they offered. Okay. And now well they still offer as a as a lever up as a blade upgrade, but um that I just really like the feel of those levers. That's that's the only reason. I actually didn't like the calipers because you had to run the the pads are two individual pads per side, so basically four individual pads per caliper, which is the only company that does that really. And they were very, very finicky to not get any break rubbing. Very finicky. You had to run them for clothes, it was it was so it was just you know, and but the power was great. Okay, so when Saram came out with changed everything to mineral oil, I said, let's try my nice Magura levers that I like so much with Saram calipers. Oh, and it works actually quite great. Fancy.

Kristin 1:08:03

Okay, but when we're talking about upgrading brakes, yes, okay.

Steve 1:08:08

There the reason to upgrade brakes typically comes down to because the brakes that were spec'd on the bike you bought are just not great for your particular riding, and that is not uncommon. Now, it's getting a little better because brakes have gotten better, but let's talk about some couple situations real quick.

Kristin 1:08:31

Okay.

Steve 1:08:32

Um on the Shimano side. Almost every Shimano hydraulic disc brake is quite good. Okay. And um, but some entry-level bikes come with what the MT200s, and those are those are actually quite good in many cases, but not up to the task of mountain biking. Um not for not for fast trail riding.

Kristin 1:08:58

I was gonna say, does it just not stop? Like what it what are they not doing?

Steve 1:09:02

No, they they do well.

Kristin 1:09:04

I feel like you have one job if you're a brake. Stop my bicycle.

Steve 1:09:08

They don't stop fast enough.

Kristin 1:09:09

Ah, okay.

Steve 1:09:10

You can now those no, those brakes can be, we'll call those, those brakes can be upgraded themselves by not changing the brake, but by changing the rotors and the pads. And you can make a very, very big difference with those brakes by doing that. Because a brake a bike that comes with those brakes also comes with very cheap rotors.

Kristin 1:09:30

Okay.

Steve 1:09:30

All right. So uh by upgrading both the brake pad in there and the rotor, you can actually significantly improve those brakes.

Kristin 1:09:40

Okay. Right. That's good to know.

Steve 1:09:42

Yep. Um, and then if you move to the SRAM side, they so so SRAM had like they had brakes, the level brakes, which just never really had great power.

Kristin 1:09:55

Again, one job.

Steve 1:09:57

Brakes. Yeah, but when you when you break, when you're going when you when you faster you get on your bike, especially mountain bikes. Okay. That's what we're talking about here in this case. The faster you get, the the more powerful you need your brakes, and the better modulation. You you need to be able to stop in the same distance going, you know, 30 miles an hour as if you were 20, 15 miles an hour in some cases, right? Yes. So you need really good brakes. Good brakes will actually make you faster too, in terms of racing, because you can break later.

Kristin 1:10:28

Um I think this is where, as an average consumer, you kind of go, What the hell are you talking about that a brake doesn't break as well as another brake? Like they should, I wouldn't even think to to ask about how good the brake completely is.

Steve 1:10:46

With with those, with those SRAM brakes, a lot of times you just need to upgrade the brake, um, and not necessarily the rotor and the pads. Just the thing on the back. I I do want to say in terms of brake upgrades, rotors and rotors and pads are can make a massive difference. And you can increase the size of your rotor, which adds more braking force. Oh. Um, and then of course, there's all the different compounds you can get for your brake pads. Okay. All right. Um, but then there is a point where it comes down to the brakes just upgrades. Just can't. Yeah, the brakes just need to be upgraded. Yeah.

Kristin 1:11:25

Sorry. You're okay.

Steve 1:11:30

No, no, road bikes, road bikes is come is the is the opposite in terms of I can't think of a single hydraulic road um, you know, brake shifter system that doesn't break great. Okay. They're I mean, some break a little bit better than others, but they are all perfectly suitable.

Kristin 1:11:48

If they're not hydraulic, they are cable actuated. Cable actuated. And those do have some limitations for how hard well they'll be.

Steve 1:11:57

There's a situation of an upgrade, right? So if you got an entry-level mountain bike that has cable brakes, yes, then upgrading to hydraulic disc brakes, great upgrade.

Kristin 1:12:08

Okay.

Steve 1:12:08

All right, that's a that is a great component upgrade. Um, on a road bike, it is also a great component upgrade, but it's expensive. It's not, it is less expensive on a mountain bike than it is on a road bike because you're talking about integrated shifters and brakes. And so you're getting the whole the whole system, and sometimes it's not even possible. So if you have a eight or nine speed uh cassette on your road bike, you really can't get hydraulic shifters for that for that number of speeds. You really have to get 10 and above. Learn something new.

Kristin 1:12:41

And and brakes can be. I remember you had me trying to well, I take that.

Steve 1:12:45

There's a whole new Shimano group set, but I'm not gonna.

Kristin 1:12:48

I um you had me try your bike, and I was like, I actually hate these brakes. I didn't I didn't like the feel of your Megura brakes. I remember you had me trying them, and it was like they bit too quickly, or they there's just something where I was like, I I feel like I have no uh I just didn't like them. Yeah, I didn't realize that it was a thing. Again, that brakes could feel different.

Steve 1:13:17

Like I Yeah, mountain bike brakes can feel dramatically different in terms of their modulation and and the lever feel in terms of it was the it was like they didn't I had to pull too much for them to start and then they started uh too quick. Yep, that is all that is a very uh normal aspect of different brakes on mountain bikes. Yeah, that's fascinating.

Kristin 1:13:41

Okay. Um handlebars.

Steve 1:13:44

Handlebars. Well, handlebars is and upgrading handlebars people often do it for weight, but it should be fit first and then weight. Um so and when I mean fit, I mean the width of the bars, yes, uh, and both for both road and mountain aspects. Um, and then the rise of the bars on mountain bikes, um, that's gonna affect the drop. And then within now, this is not really uh upgrading your part, it is more adjusting your handlebars, but handlebars have both an upsweep um and a back sweep, okay, right? And so rotating them in the stem actually affects both of those things. Uh so this is worthwhile for people to play with because it could be they just need to rotate their bars if they're not happy with their positioning. Yeah.

Kristin 1:14:36

Okay. Yeah.

Steve 1:14:39

So um, you know, and and then um, well, and then handlebars can also now on the mountain bike side, handlebars can actually also uh greatly affect the overall fatigue level, I should say, of the rider. So they can some handlebars can be very stiff and others can absorb high frequency vibrations much better. Oh, and that can over the course of hours really uh feel how you change how fatigued you feel a rider feels.

Kristin 1:15:10

If you have an older bike, like I'm talking older bike, let's say like your your old Kona and you pull it out and you want to ride it, because you can, and I've seen these bikes out there, but they did we used to have very narrow handlebars.

Steve 1:15:24

We did, I think 560 millimeters wide.

Kristin 1:15:26

Right? Where now we know it's better to have a wider handlebar so you can have more stability. Can you put a wider handlebar on an older bike like that? Would that make a big difference?

Steve 1:15:36

Um bar diameters have changed. Okay. Uh so on an older bike, you'd have to just check sometimes, depending on what you're looking for. You might actually also change the stem. Okay. But yeah, it's it's definitely possible to change that. Um the bike wasn't, I mean, yes, a wider handlebar and some of those older bikes is is is a good thing in many cases. Um, but the you know, nowadays mountain bikes are designed for with long reaches and short stems, and just the geometry of that is set up for that, because the stem, the length of the stem does affect your steering.

Kristin 1:16:10

Yes.

Steve 1:16:11

Um, just because it's a it's a pivot point, it's a fulcrum point. Um, whereas old mountain bikes were designed for were steeper head tube angles and had 140 millimeter stems, massive, light, long stems. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Kristin 1:16:26

All right. So we're gonna leave it at that because you could talk about this all day, and it sounds like we even have some every little thing could have its own show sometimes. And and maybe we will, but this is a super long show, and we do have two other things we want to cover very quickly. Okay. Uh, number one was I was on another podcast. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was on a show called Punch Out with Katie and Carrie. It's a podcast about the hobbies and side hustles that people have when they punch out of work. That was totally fun to be on, um, especially when I tried to explain why a lot of bikes don't come with pedals. So that was really fun. But people can listen to that by going to punchoutwithus.com or we have a link on your site.

Steve 1:17:10

Okay.

Kristin 1:17:11

And then the other thing, which is much sadder news, is um our Rasputiza family has suffered a great loss with um the passing of Anthony, one of the Rasputiza founders. And uh there are no adequate words to um to talk about this loss or the loss for his family and his close friends. But I will say, um, I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that back in 2019, Anthony saved you, yeah, saved your life when you were caught out at Rasputiza with um hypothermia, and he picked you up and picked me up and and brought us home. I will be forever grateful for him. I mean, obviously creating Rasputiza and and bringing together this just amazing community, but for that moment in particular. Yep. Um, so we just want to send our love and um know that we're thinking about everybody. Anyway, um, oh, and there is a GoFundMe actually for Anthony's family. He's got um three children, I believe, young. Um, so if you want to contribute to that, we will have it in the show notes. Anyway, all right, let's wrap this up. Cycling together with Kristen and Steve is a production of Steve the Bike Guy, an independent bicycle shop in Eastern Massachusetts and Sundan Marketing.

Steve 1:18:42

If you like the show, please leave a review or share with a friend. And for show notes, links, or to leave a comment, question, or top suggestion, visit cycling together.bike.

Kristin 1:18:51

You can follow the shop on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at Steve the Bike Guy. Okay, we'll see you next time.