What You Need to Know About Bike Fits

Whether its to maximize your efficiency or to increase your comfort and time in the saddle, being "fit" by a professional bicycle fitter can offer riders a lot of value. Steve breaks down the basics of a bike fit, including adjustments you may be able to make to get you into your "gray zone." 

They also discuss Kristin's Everwild weekend at Hale Education and the value of mountain bike clinics to improve your skills as well as the recent backlash against the industry's ongoing push towards 32" wheels. Steve then answers a couple of follower questions about Rock Shox Flight Attendant before they discuss the issue of sales reps and influencers commenting on new technology without disclosing their relationship with the brands.

Transcript

Kristin 0:00

On this episode of Cycling Together, we're talking about bike fitting, my Everwild weekend, a little bit of pushback on those 32-inch wheels, and Steve's gonna answer some follow-up questions about flight attendant before we talk about sales rep transparency. Ooh. Yeah.

Steve 0:18

Okay, well, it is a full show and my hands are ready for flailing, so let's get this rolling.

Kristin 0:24

This is Kristin.

Steve 0:25

And I'm Steve, and you are listening to Cycling Together, a podcast about all things bikes, riding, and riding together.

Kristin 0:31

Nicely done.

Steve 0:33

Do you want to go into your Everwild recap first?

Kristin 0:37

Last weekend was Everwild, which was the celebration of women in mountain biking that is hosted by uh Hale Education. It's their third year. Uh I've been there every year. What was different is you weren't there.

Steve 0:52

Sadly, I was not. I had to go out of town.

Kristin 0:55

I know we made that rookie mistake of um we had it in our heads that it was happening, but we didn't put it on the calendar.

Steve 1:01

Yeah, we didn't put it into Google Calendar, and so therefore it did not exist for future planning. Exactly.

Kristin 1:06

But this was the third year they had, I think, close to 150 riders.

Steve 1:10

That's awesome.

Kristin 1:11

Which included the people like me who were there to volunteer and lead. Um, I ran with my good friend Leslie the strong novice clinic, which basically was like people who had they had ridden maybe a year, maybe a couple of years, but they just wanted to dive deep into some essential skills.

Steve 1:31

No, I didn't realize, you know what? I guess I didn't realize you did that strong novice.

Kristin 1:36

I let it. I didn't know who you did. It's really funny because um Leslie's a certified mountain bike instructor, but she was my assistant. So, and we make a great team. She's so smart, she has such great advice.

Steve 1:48

She does, but let's be clear, you are a great teacher when it comes to this stuff. Thank you. You really you just really are.

Kristin 1:54

I do, you know, do as I say, not as I do. Um, and a couple of things we worked on. Well, here's the thing about clinics that are so great. You can really focus in a way that you wouldn't if you're just riding, right? Like, but the other thing is when you have someone who's watching you, they can see what your body's doing that you don't quite understand, right? So, like we were working on hill starts, that idea that you've gotten stuck on a hill and you want to get the bike going again. Yeah. And I had this one woman and she was having so much trouble with it. And I realized what the problem was was that she was pushing really hard with her first pedal with her right, but then she was kind of dragging her left foot. She was like Fred Flintstone.

Steve 2:37

Because she was afraid. She was afraid she was gonna fall over. Right, yep.

Kristin 2:40

So I came up with this. I was like, you have to commit to the bit. Yeah, you need to just slam that, you know, slam that pedal with your other foot.

Steve 2:48

Get the foot down on the other foot down on the pedal and push.

Kristin 2:51

And she got it right away. And it's just one of those things that without somebody watching her, yeah, to see her do it was really good. Um two other things. I have I am now fully in on teaching women how to ride no hands. And here's the thing I have a theory now. I don't know that anyone teaches this, first of all, and I have a theory about why it is an essential skill and not just a fun thing to do. Okay. Right.

Steve 3:22

Yeah. Okay. Enlighten us.

Kristin 3:23

Okay, thank you. My theory is if you can ride your bike comfortably with no hands on the handlebars, then you have found the perfect balance point. You have found the perfect balance point between front and back of speed, of left and right, like you are in a space that then in mountain biking will help you because you mountain biking is all about where your body is, right? A little bit forward to help with going uphill, a little bit back to help going downhill. But if you are, if you know where the center of your bike is and you find it by going no hands, that's my theory.

Steve 4:03

And you're sticking to it?

Kristin 4:04

I'll go with it. I'm sticking to it, I'm teaching everyone.

Steve 4:07

You know, I I I so as somebody's been riding no hands my whole life, right? Yeah. Uh and is as comfortable as walking doing it. But I do find that the mountain bike is always the hardest bike to actually do it on. Uh, road and gravel, those bikes tend to just want to do it easier. Okay. Now, some of that might be because you typically are going a little faster and you get the more little bit more gyroscopic effect.

Kristin 4:33

Yeah.

Steve 4:34

But it's also that those bikes have a little less what's called wheel flop in the front. So um it can be a little harder on a mountain bike to um keep the basically the balance point left, right, going to make sure that wheel's tracking straight. But yeah.

Kristin 4:49

Yeah, I mean, I said it to one of my friends and she said, Well, I've had this bike for uh for three years and I can't do it. And I said, Have you tried doing it? Like, have you made it a actual and sure enough, there she goes across the field trying to do it, and they all get it. They all get it really quickly, which is even better.

Steve 5:07

So you got all you got these women riding no hands.

Kristin 5:09

Oh, absolutely. That's amazing. The thing is, we were doing it between even Leslie, who has a spectacular rider, has been riding for years. She looked at me and she goes, I don't know how to do that. And I was like, Well, we're doing it now. And we were between, we're on a field between two other clinics, and now the instructors are watching us, and one of them yells to Leslie, you have to go a little faster. Sure enough, you're doing a few little faster. Yes. Yeah, you need speed. You're committing to the bit. You have to commit to the bit. Right. That is my that was the other thing I kept saying. I was like, you've got to commit to the bit, whether it's climbing or going down. Hesitancy is not your friend either, right? Like if you're going downhill, you need a little bit of speed. If you're going uphill, you need to lean into that and really go for it. So yeah. I did get a question, which is also why clinics are good, because you know, you've been told stuff over the years and then you realize maybe they're wrong. So I was riding with one woman and she has a lot of trouble going uphills. And I was like, girlfriend, you have more gears. And she goes, Well, I was told don't shift under load. Oh, so she would not shift, she did not think she could shift going uphill. Address.

Steve 6:24

Okay. I think I I have seen this before that that some people think, oh, I'm in the hill, I guess I'm stuck in the gear I'm in. Yes. That is really not the case. So you can shift anytime. Now, certain drivetrains will shift better under load than others. SRAM transmission shifts phenomenally.

Kristin 6:45

In fact, one might say better under load than it does with the same underload, we mean uh under pedal pushing on it, correct?

Steve 6:53

Right. So experienced riders though, it is muscle memory that when we make that shift under load, there is that very oh so slight let up of the power on the pedals as the chain is going to a larger cog in the back.

Kristin 7:13

Right.

Steve 7:14

And uh because and and this varies based on your drivetrain, really, but 100% you can shift under load, and you're not going to damage the drivetrain doing so. It may kerchunk, it may not sound very pretty. Sometimes it may not sound very pretty, uh, but it's extremely hard to break something.

Kristin 7:37

Yeah, so that's basically what I said to her. I said, sweetie, you're gonna want to shift because you paid for all of those gears, and they would not be very useful to you if you could not use them on a hill. Yeah, that's basically what I said. I was like, I know what you're saying. I actually have heard it myself, um, and we talked all about that kind of technique. And again, that's where in clinics are great because you can really like break down some of the things you've been told over the years, you can really focus on practicing stuff. And with a group like the strong novices, they are they are ready, like they're ready to explode, right? So there were moments where we had this little one thing we did was dropping the front wheel off of something high. Oh, okay. In this case, it was like an 18-inch ledge. Sure.

Steve 8:22

And so that that is a that's an essential skill.

Kristin 8:25

It's an essential skill, and Leslie demonstrated it. She called it the peek and push, right? So you get to the edge and you peek over and then you push your bike down. Yeah. Which I love these little terms. Um, and the faces, the women I was standing next to as they're watching her, they're like, I am not doing that. I am mostly not doing that. And they again all did it.

Steve 8:45

Oh, that's amazing.

Kristin 8:46

Yeah, because peer pressure can be a good thing. Oh, sure. Um, and then my final piece is there was a woman who, so we had clinics in the morning and clinics in the afternoon, and I was standing at the clinic sheet area, sign up area, and one of our women came up to me and she's like, What should I do this afternoon? And a lot of the things were full, except for the airbag jump clinic. Uh-huh. Now, this is a progressive clinic. They start very small and then on a small bag and a big bag. And uh Jocelyn and I, Jocelyn's one of the organizers, and I just kept saying, You want to do that?

Steve 9:18

Do it.

Kristin 9:19

You want to do that.

Steve 9:19

Do it.

Kristin 9:20

You want to do that because like all these other clinics, you can get those anywhere. But where do you get an airbag? Right? Like airbags are unique.

Steve 9:28

Yeah.

Kristin 9:29

Well, I didn't see her, but Jocelyn saw her, and apparently she was flying. She was flying off of that jump. And she came to me at the end of the day and she said, basically, thank you so much for pushing me. If you had told me last week that I would have been jumping an airbag, and I would have told you you were crazy, but I had the best time. And she was flying. And interestingly enough, she was on a bike that had a Steve the Bike Guy sticker on it, but she hadn't bought it from us. She bought it pre-owned from somewhere else. And I was like, and by the way, that's us. There we go.

Steve 10:06

So I mean, your weekend was uh fairly lousy weather, sandwiched on you bookended, I guess, by uh by great weather. So that was unfortunate, but it sounds to me because of the experiences and everything that these women had, they'll be back next year.

Kristin 10:20

The vibes were high.

Steve 10:21

Sometimes bad weather can discourage people from coming back.

Kristin 10:24

Oh, it really can. I mean, the the bad weather kind of timed out perfectly that like for some reason it didn't rain during the clinics and then it rained at lunch, then didn't rain in the afternoon. And yeah, no, the vibes were high. I got back to the organizing spot and they were like, Were you guys over there? And I was like, Yeah, why? She goes, There was a lot of yelling from over there. And I was like, Oh, yeah, there was there was big celebrating, like every time hooping and hollering. So it was spectacular. Anyway, we missed you. So I know. I wish I could be there.

Steve 10:56

No, I'll be there next year.

Kristin 10:57

Yes. All right. So what are we talking about today?

Steve 11:00

Well, today's main topic is bike fitting, and it's not going to be how to fit your bike, and it's not going to be based on a the type of bike you're on, but we're going to talk about this. Is going to be real kind of really cool information, I think, that is going to give you just a concept of what getting a bike fit is for. Yep. And and what it just about fitting the bike to you. We're not getting to the nitty-gritty of how you're going to fit your bike.

Kristin 11:30

And we should give credit. So the the idea for this actually came from Jeff, who listened to our podcast about women's bikes and commented in our Slack, you were perfectly cued up to mention that to find the right size bike, you might want to get a bike fit. We were. And I was like, Oh, did we not say that? And he's like, No, you did not. And I was like, Well, apparently we didn't say that. John is an unscripted podcast, and that's what happens. But we thought this is worth more than a mention.

Steve 12:00

It is, absolutely.

Kristin 12:02

All right. Where would you like to start?

Steve 12:03

Let's just get down to the very concept of a person fitting on a bicycle. All right. So, and a lot of people just don't think about this, these points. So a human body on a bicycle, all right, it has three contact points. Okay. Okay. Your feet, your butt, and your hands. Okay, and that's it. So the relationship of those three points on a bicycle is really what you're getting down to as a bike fit. Now you can think about that if you look, if you say, imagine a picture of a rider from the side, right? So you're kind of on on even like paper, right? So that's the two-dimensional aspect of the bike fit. Where their feet are in relation to their butt on the saddle in relation to their hands.

Kristin 12:52

Okay.

Steve 12:53

Okay. And if you move, so you so you've created a triangle, and if you move one point on that, the other two change in relationship to each other.

Kristin 13:03

Okay.

Steve 13:03

Right? So it is sort of finding your triangle that works for you. And then on the three-dimensional aspect of that, now we're going into the paper, if you will. Yes. Because you have your saddle width based on sort of your pelvis. You have your feet width clipped, you know, on your pedals. Okay. And that's known as the Q factor. That's basically the width of your of your crank set and where your pedals sit on the I'm gonna be.

Kristin 13:32

I feel like I'm gonna be looking at my body a lot during this. No, I'm anyway too. Okay.

Steve 13:38

And uh oh, and then you have your bar width, right? It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter if you're drop bar or or whatnot. Yes. Right. Um so but that is that is essentially what you're fitting.

Kristin 13:50

So when somebody says they need a bike fit, that's what they're essentially they're saying. There's they're saying something.

Steve 13:59

Something in that triangle typically is wrong. Or is so so getting that two-dimensional triangle right, yes, right, can affect your performance or it can affect your comfort. Right?

Kristin 14:15

So we're kind of talking about like how like with the triangle, like how how tight or wide the different angles of the triangle are, right?

Steve 14:26

Yeah, essentially. Okay. Yeah.

Kristin 14:28

Um gestures too.

Steve 14:31

The the other side, the three-dimensional side, sort of the the width of your of your hands on the bars and the width of the saddle you're sitting on, that kind of stuff usually affects comfort. Um and and just yes, just general, general comfort on the bike.

Kristin 14:49

Right.

Steve 14:50

Right. And so, um now so we've just talked about sort of that that three points of connection with the bike. Yes. Right? And just sort of a little side note here on the bike frame. So a bike frame is what's called the double diamond design, right? You have a triangle in the back. Call the double diamond frame, but it's but it's triangles.

Kristin 15:13

We like to make things as confusing as possible. Right.

Steve 15:15

So you've got you've got a triangle in the back, right? With you've had the basically the C tube and the seat stays and the chain stays.

Kristin 15:22

Okay. Okay.

Steve 15:23

Yeah. And then you have the front triangle, which is the C tube, the top tube, and the down tube. And then those are connected to a head tube. So technically, I guess it's a trapezoid, but right, it's essentially a triangle.

Kristin 15:36

Okay. Okay.

Steve 15:37

Um, so that double diamond frame is essentially considered just a an example of perfect marvel of engineering, right? It is it is something that just simply cannot really be improved upon. No matter what you might see bicycle brands do, that they they make swoopy tubes or they make overlapping tubes or they make kinks and all this kind of stuff. Twisted. All of that is for marketing distinction, marketing distinction, right?

Kristin 16:11

Because they're still working off the double diamonds.

Steve 16:14

They are, and it doesn't do anything. It's it gets a little bit more complex than that, but but essentially that's it. And there have been plenty of frame engineers and frame designers who basically have said, show me the numbers, show me the numbers of your little concept there, and and nobody's gonna nobody can either show the numbers or the number is so infinitesimally small that does not matter in terms of the comfort and so forth of the flame.

Kristin 16:42

It's funny when you when you say that really, a bike is two triangles. Yeah. There was a there was like a science experiment or something, social experiment years ago where they asked people to draw a bicycle and then they built them based on the drawings. And what you realize is people didn't understand that was just these basic, like in their head, what they thought was a bicycle was like completely not a bicycle, completely unusable. And then yeah, once you figure out it's those two triangles, you're like, Oh, I can draw a bike, no problem.

Steve 17:12

Yeah. Now, I uh I what I'm talking about is more in the vertical plane of what the rider feels, yeah, not necessarily the stiffness of a bike from left, right, flex and all that stuff. So bikes have changed in terms of their their overall design and and I guess how you could say how they fit has changed over time. So where, say, road bikes used to be very, very tall, right? And you'd have it, and if you stood over a road bike, it would be touching your crotch. You had very small amount of seat posts showing.

Kristin 17:42

Oh, okay.

Steve 17:43

Okay, and they were typically then so very tall bikes, but shorter to compensate, leaving aside the fact that road bikes used to just have a little bit longer of a reach to begin with. But um and now, of course, nowadays road bikes have the frames have shrunk down. They're they're not as tall, they typically have sloping top tubes. That in part is so one size, one particular size can fit more people, okay. You know, a greater range of of persons' height. Um, but it also is because a lot of the forces that actually do affect comfort, such as seat post flect flex, that then is increased because you now have more seat post exposed. Okay.

Kristin 18:28

Um and we should probably inject in here at some point. You, as a bike mechanic, as somebody who builds bikes for people, puts people on the bikes, there are some things you do that might be considered quote unquote bike fitting, but you are not a bike fitter. That is not a service that you correct. We're gonna get into that. So you're really coming at this as someone who's we're trying to sell this service. This is this is just if somebody were to ask you what bike fitting is and is it worth it, this is the source of information you're coming from.

Steve 19:00

This is where we're coming from in this topic. Yeah. All right. So, yeah, let's talk about um professional bike fitters and getting your bike fit and that concept, if you will, right? So a lot of professional bike fitters are now using computerized tools. Uh retool is one of the um examples of a system. Now, a lot of these fitters are buying a software package, right? Right? They're buying the software package and maybe the hardware, and they're just using that. And there are some fitters out there who will use that software and they'll probably video record you, and the software will tell them what to do, and then that fitter says, Okay, the software told me your this your saddle should be this high and should be this far back, and your hand should be at this position, right? And so they're just they're but they're basically doing is finding a spot for those three contact points. Okay. But your feet and your hands.

Kristin 20:00

Yeah.

Steve 20:00

And then that's it. Okay, the software says this, that's what it should be.

Kristin 20:04

The computer says. Yes. Okay. But that's a fairly new concept, right? Like that's been around for quite a while now. Okay.

Steve 20:11

Um so, and then other fitters will use that computerized tool, but then use some other outside expertise or their own instincts to tweak that.

Kristin 20:22

They're brain.

Steve 20:24

Then they're then you're there's like old school fitters out there who are just using use a tape measure and and bubble levels and you know, you know, angle finders, and uh, and their eyeballs. Okay. And they're gonna be, and the thing is that you can get a perfectly good fit from something like that. But I want to say that probably that level of expertise is dying out. Yes.

Kristin 20:51

Our point is it is around.

Steve 20:53

Yes.

Kristin 20:54

But it's probably not that common. Right, not anymore. Right. Right. And the thing to be aware of is probably the the first version that you were exactly saying.

Steve 21:05

So there is when you're talking about fitting up a body onto a bike, yeah, there are definite wrong fits. And what I mean by that is there you the saddle's way too high or it's way too short, or your your reach to your bars is way too long or way too short. Um, and I've seen plenty of riders on both the road and the trail that you're like, you that is a wrong fit. Okay, your three contact points are just completely out of sync and in the wrong spot.

Kristin 21:39

Hot tip. If you don't know that person, don't say anything.

Steve 21:42

Don't say anything. Right.

Kristin 21:45

Just putting it out there, unless unless you know them or you say something like, I am an experienced bicycle person. Can I give you some pointers on your fit? And then if you do ask that question and they say no, move along. Okay.

Steve 22:01

So let's so what what there is then is there is a gray area. Okay. Okay. So you have wide wildly wrong on both ends of the spectrum. And then you narrow down this, you you're getting this triangle of your of your three contact points closer and closer, and now you've got this gray area. And so the size of that gray area is different for every rider. So some riders can have a good amount of variability inside that gray area, and they're just fine. They're perfectly happy on their bikes. They don't know the difference. And even some like professional uh pro mechanics on like the world tour say, they'll they know they're they're they're riders and their team. Like they could they could adjust the saddle 10 millimeters and put on a wrong stem, and the rider will go out and happily ride and won't know the difference. Right. And they have other riders on their team where if you move the saddle a millimeter, they know, right? So you have riders with very big gray areas, and then you have riders with very narrow gray areas. Got it. When you're tr when you're for every rider trying to fit their bike, they're trying to get to start with to get into that gray area. So a lot of just general formulas or online tools or even like what I do with the shop is get people into that gray area.

Kristin 23:30

Right, right. Like when you get somebody onto a bike, you know, you you can see right off the bat, you'll say, I mean, you even say it to me. You'll you'll say, Do they look like it is the right size for them? Right? They're riding around. Right. And I know, like I look how much I think they're how how straight their legs should be, how stretched they look, right? Right. And they may even say, Oh, I think I'm fine. And then you'll say, What if we put your saddle up just a little bit? And they go, Oh, that is better. Yes. But they were in at that moment, this gray area that you're talking about. Yeah. Does the gray area get narrower the longer you ride? Like, so when you're walk driving around riding around in the parking lot, the gray area is really wide, and then you go on a 15-mile bike ride and you're like, Oh, that's not that comfortable.

Steve 24:17

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Okay. Yeah, in that in that scenario, what you just described, yes.

Kristin 24:22

Yep.

Steve 24:22

Um, it it it absolutely can.

Kristin 24:25

I get all that, right? I get that we have the three points. And I want to I actually want to talk a little bit about some of the different points, saddles, and but I guess the first question is when you're talking about gray area, are you primarily talking pain?

Steve 24:43

Yes and no. So the point of this fit is for really for comfort and for performance. Okay. So you could be in the gray area, which you are perfectly comfortable in.

Kristin 24:57

Yes.

Steve 24:58

But let's say you're at the bottom of that gray area, right, where you're comfortable, but you're actually not getting as as much wattage into the pedals as you could be.

Kristin 25:09

Right.

Steve 25:10

And so you make a slight tweak, you're still comfortable, but you're outputting better. Okay. Right, more efficiently, right? Yeah. So that that is B one area where for some people why they might go to get a fit, because they are looking for optimization of performance. Right. They're they're fine on the bike in terms of comfort, but they're looking for optimization of performance.

Kristin 25:30

They could be faster, they feel like they could be more efficient, they feel like they could fatigue less.

Steve 25:35

Right. Right. Now, that is probably the more common. You could have the opposite where a person feels like they are just killing it and in terms of like performance. Like they're strong, they're like they're you know, they're beating the their friends, the town line, sprint, that kind of thing. Yeah. But they're not so comfortable, right? They're having to endure the discomfort in order at the same time. Right. And so again, that might be where that the fit comes in. Now, in that case, it might be the 3D uh uh scenario where it's the width of the bars, it's the width of the saddle, it's the width, their their Q factor, which might be the discomfort uh uh problem source.

Kristin 26:19

And I think I feel like when you say discomfort, the first thing people think of is the saddle.

Steve 26:25

Yeah.

Kristin 26:25

Right? But I know, having had you adjust me and turn me into the princess and the pea, um, that can mean for me, that can mean the center of my back right here can get ouchy, and I know to come to talk to you about that. It could be my knee might start feeling a little funny. Yep, and I'll come talk to you about that. We've talked about my hands, my elbows, my like so are there places where pain is more common that drives someone to a fit or that you see more commonly, or is it just in general like something's ouchy and it shouldn't be?

Steve 27:02

Yeah, you I mean you either have you either have um uh butt pain, you know, sit bone pain, and that kind of thing for discomfort from sitting on the saddle. Yeah. You have knee pain, and a lot of knee pain can be like, oh, where does it hurt in your knee? Oh, that's that's because your saddle is X. In general, a saddle that's too high would be back of the knee pain, and a saddle that's too low would be front of the knee pain.

Kristin 27:27

Oh interesting.

Steve 27:28

Yeah. In in general, right? So But like up here and then back of the neck. So so neck and and and um and upper back is another section, right? And then and then hands. So those and and because those three contact points work together and moving one affects the other, that is a lot of times why you know you might say, I am having um you know, m upper back pain or something, right? And the fitter might change where your hands are.

Kristin 28:06

Yes.

Steve 28:07

Right?

Kristin 28:08

And you're like, yeah, so you're like, wait, then you have to sing the song. Your neck bones. Or they might even change, they might, yeah.

Steve 28:14

So exactly, everything's connected. Right. And so it just is important to remember that with a fitter, that it is all connected, and hopefully your your your fitter is working on that.

Kristin 28:25

And there's also um little what I'm astounded by now. I have not gone to do a professional bike fit. You have been my de facto bike fitter. You've you've used some of these software tools. I've I've used some in the past. Right, just to see what they were like, um, which is cool because it tapes you and it shows your angles. But I'm always astounded by the little the littleness of the adjustments are not huge. Like my the one that almost always astounds me is where my cleat is on my on my shoe. Yep. Right? Like you will change it, and there's it can't move that far. No, it's a few millimeters, right? Yeah, but it for knee pain. I know I was having some knee pain at one point, and you popped that a little forward, and that was so that's what I think is always it's surprising to me, it's still surprising to me that small adjustments can make such big changes.

Steve 29:20

Yeah, exactly. So, and that's again where that gray area comes from, right? So a lot of times you might go to a professional fitter because you are now have really narrowed down that gray area and you're trying to sort of optimize it better. Right. Um you know, but one thing that's really crucial to remember about uh the numbers you're gonna get out of a bike fit. Okay, and that is they are not forever numbers. They are not even maybe next year numbers. Um so so these things like like just small injuries you might incur, um, your age, your relative flexibility, um, all that changes over time, and all that affects your fit.

Kristin 30:04

Yeah.

Steve 30:05

So it's it's kind of important to know that. And the other thing is that like your clothing affects your fit. So you might have a you might have a pair of bib shorts with a really thick pad and one that's fairly thin. Yeah. That is now making a couple millimeters difference in your saddle height, right? So you're and your course your shoes. If you own multiple pairs of shoes for the same bike and you just kind of flip back and forth, like may maybe you one set has a insole and that's a little different, and all of that changes your bike fit. So people and riders with a um an allowable larger gray zone, they don't doesn't affect them. But if you're the kind of person who has a very narrow narrow gray zone, right, and just being out of that a little bit is going to say make your knee hurt. Okay. Um then that can be a problem.

Kristin 31:01

Well, it it is astounding. Uh let's be clear, this gray zone concept, totally new to me right now. So I'm embracing it. But it is it is interesting to me as you're talking, it it does shift, it moves. The gray zone moves, and I do think I do think age is part of it. Yep. For for me personally, and how things that worked last year may not work this year. For example, I have been having a pain on the back right of my heel, my right foot, that seems to be triggered by the shoes I'm wearing. Now I have worn these shoes for they're not old, so they're not like broken in, where you're like, girl, you gotta get rid of those shoes. They're they're they're shoes that should be worn into the right amount, and yet I think it's the shoes. And so you happen to be getting me a new pair of gravel shoes. Yes, and I'm looking forward to checking them out because I'm wondering.

Steve 31:56

You can think a pair of shoes isn't worn out, and it's a small change and say the padding has just crushed down in the back to make the all the difference.

Kristin 32:05

I think the other thing is when I talk to some riders, some seem to have an expectation that there should there should be pain. And I try to say, no, this is like there's pain from effort, there's pain from exertion, there's pain from you're on the bike for 10 hours, yes, you're gonna have some pain. But if you're immediately in pain, then that's the thing that I don't think we should accept as normal.

Steve 32:32

Yeah, uh this actually gets a this gets actually gets interesting because I'm gonna say that a bicycle in itself is not it's not your couch. So So there can be there is a there is a level of discomfort's the wrong term, but it in a way it kind of is the right term. It is it is not something our bodies want to be on necessarily. I'm gonna disagree. Okay, but it shouldn't be something that you think about. Unless, of course, like when I do a very, very long ride, I get to the point, you know, hour five, six, and so forth, where I'm like, yeah, get me off the saddle. Everything hurts. Yes, exactly. I'm ready to be done with this ride. This is this is uncomfortable now, right? And and so you're just sort of enduring that discomfort. But into that point, it just it's not even thinking about it, right? If unless I like focus on it, right? If I were to see, to me, it's something that just blends in as being used to be on the bike.

Kristin 33:39

I'm gonna still argue this. I'm gonna argue this. When I get on my bike, yes, whether it's my gravel bike or my mountain bike, I don't have no, it's not a couch, right? But I but I don't sit on a bar stool and think it's a couch, right? Right? Like it's a different thing I'm sitting on. Yeah. So the expectation is not that I'm sitting on a couch, but I'm not uncomfortable. I'm very comfortable. I'm in in I'm in the right level of comfort for where I am right there. You sit on a bar, you sit up I guess that's what I'm trying to do. You sit on a bar stool and you go, This is a comfortable bar stool. You don't sit on it and go, this is not a comfortable bar stool because it is not a couch. You didn't expect it to be a couch.

Steve 34:17

Well, I've sat on some very uncomfortable bar stools.

Kristin 34:19

Yes, that's what I'm saying. You've you've sat on uncomfortable bar stools and comfortable ones. But even the most comfortable bar stool is not your couch.

Steve 34:27

Right.

Kristin 34:28

That's what I'm saying about the bike. Like, yes, if I get on the bike.

Steve 34:32

That's what I'm saying too, and the wrong way.

Kristin 34:34

Yeah, just don't call them uncomfortable. That sounds sad.

Steve 34:36

Yes.

Kristin 34:37

But if you get on the bike and you start to ride and you're feeling a sharp pain between the, you know, these vertebrae. That is something that you want to say. Yes, that should not be happening. Now, yes, at the end of a very long day, things are gonna start to hurt. Same as being on that bar stool, right? You sat on that bar stool for eight hours, you would want to get off of it. So, um, but I think it's this expectation that that biking's just going to hurt that I that I would like to dispel.

Steve 35:12

I agreed.

Kristin 35:13

You know. How much, okay, let's a couple questions. How much does one spend on a bike fit?

Steve 35:22

Well, bike fitters now really uh I I believe they're really looking at around between 250 to 400, I I guess is the the normal price range nowadays. Um, because they're taking a good amount of time with you. They're using extremely expensive tools. And um and and yeah, I mean, when you when you look at the expertise you're getting and the tools they're using, then that is actually a reasonable cost.

Kristin 35:53

I was gonna say, I mean, this for for the level they assuming again it's not just someone who picked up the software package and they're they're working on it, you know, they're not doing anything else. Right. How does one find a bike fitter that to trust? Because I feel like this is a big deal too. I mean, if you have a bike fitter that does a bad job, you're gonna hurt more. So then it's wasted money and sad time on bike.

Steve 36:24

That's true. That's true. And I and this is where I feel bad for bike fitters, and I don't know how they really deal with this because you know there are gonna be people who, no matter how many tweaks they do and how much they narrow that gray area. Yeah, they'll just won't be happy.

Kristin 36:42

Right.

Steve 36:43

Yeah, and so that can be that can be tough. Um you know, one other, I guess, aspect that a tool, I suppose, that bike fitters use is that some have this um they have an adjustable now. So some bike fitters will put you on your own bike and then use their equipment to fit you on your own bike.

Kristin 37:04

Yes, yes.

Steve 37:06

Others they'll put you on a specialized bicycle to not the brand, not the brands.

Kristin 37:12

A bike that is designed for this, so thus is specialized.

Steve 37:16

Correct. And there are ones out there where they can actually make the adjustments on the fly while the rider's pedaling.

Kristin 37:24

Okay.

Steve 37:25

I have not been fit on one of those, but I follow and watch a lot of professional fitters who use this. In my opinion, this seems like the best tool because in real time, like in real time, the fitter can be watching you, they're they're watching on the screen, they're watching you in person, right? And they can go up and they turn a reel and up goes your saddle for five millimeters. And you can literally see in real time what that did to your back arch, what that did to your elbow uh bend, all that, what it did to your leg bent, right? And so you can, and then you turn another wheel and and your handlebars go out another 10 centimeters. That that type of dynamic like fitting tool just does seem to be the best to me.

Kristin 38:14

So then what happens? They put all these measurements in a piece of paper and then they bring it to you, and you do those things to that bike, or do they do that? That's a good question.

Steve 38:24

It's a good question. Like, so some fitters are one stop in terms of they'll change your personal bike to match those now they've come up with the relationship between those three contact points and also typically saddle width, bar width, Q factor.

Kristin 38:41

Okay.

Steve 38:42

And uh and then can she make the changes to the bike, or they're gonna provide you with a report with those numbers that you could take to any shop, and the shop can make those changes to your bike to meet those numbers.

Kristin 38:55

That sounds like a road bike situation. How does one get fitted for a mountain bike? Do they have the same kind of bike for that?

Steve 39:04

So that that's another good question.

Kristin 39:06

Do we do bike fitting for mountain bikes?

Steve 39:08

Yes. Okay, road bikes, because you sit in and gravel bikes, because you sit in a static position for a longer period of time. Yes, a bike fit is more important and that gray zone is narrower. Uh on mountain bikes, a rider should be way more dynamic on that bike. So the gray area gets a little bigger. Yep. And there is a little um to say there's a little less is probably wrong, but the the the the fitting aspects are a little different. Uh, especially when, of course, it comes to bars. The bars are just radically different. Yes. Right?

Kristin 39:49

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like I was like, the how does that even train it doesn't translate like the oh no, the road, the road bars.

Steve 39:56

Okay. Um Q factor can translate again the width of your uh where your pedal, where your feet are meeting the pedals. Yeah, right. Um on a mountain bike, it's going to be wider. And because cranks are wider on mountain bikes. Okay. Yep. And fitters have tools like um there are pedals with adjustable um widths, basically, adjustable axles, so you can bring the feet in and out to using those. Okay. Um, you know, and then a mountain bike. So the saddle height tends to, at least I like it to be, the same on your mountain bike as it is on your road bike. Oh. All right, because that is in theory. How long your legs are your maximum pedaling efficiency.

Kristin 40:44

Yes.

Steve 40:45

So I like those to be the same. Okay. Now, I know there's some mountain bike riders who have it a little shorter than say their their road bike measurement B or their theoretical road bike measurement B if they're if they don't ride road bikes.

Kristin 40:57

Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, I think the biggest mistake we see, at least I see, especially with younger riders or newer riders, is their mountain bike saddle is too low because either they don't have a dropper or they're afraid that they're gonna get flushed off. We see too low. The problem is they're not getting, they can't use all those fabulous muscles.

Steve 41:21

Yeah, and they're putting strain on their on their knees.

Kristin 41:23

Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, getting people to understand, especially women, that like so much of our strength is here in our wattage cottage that um yeah, it's it's getting them to raise it.

Steve 41:36

Yeah, and and on a full suspension mountain bike, the bike already has to be higher so that it doesn't hit the ground when it dips through the suspension. Yes. So, you know, on my full suspension bike, if I if I take my feet off the pedals and dangle them, I'm not touching the ground. I'm I'm sit suspended up there.

Kristin 41:54

That is another that is another funny one because we have that with people a lot, especially I will say, especially women and and kids, that they have this expectation that they can have their feet on the ground when their butts on the saddle. And the number of times I have demonstrated in the parking lot how I get on my bike, on and off my bike, which is I'm standing in front of the saddle, you start to pedal, you put yourself on the saddle, you stop, you step off, you step forward, you step forward. Yes, yeah, and um that that's not a thing that you should be able to like have your feet flat on the ground, right? Or even tiptoe in a lot of it is. No, I can't, I can't. I can if I am on my saddle and sometimes you can, but I can I can swing both my legs. I do know that. So um the other thing is bodies being bodies. Um, like I know one of my friends got fitted, and it turned out one of her legs was slightly shorter than the other. And so he put like a stacker.

Steve 42:58

They put shims inside one of the underneath the cleat, basically, between the the bottom of the shoe and the cleat, and that compensates right, because otherwise she was moving too much side to side. Yep. Yep, your shoes probably putting, yeah, probably rocking her hips a little bit, right? Yeah, so then that's where fitters, professional fitters, can be fantastic for that kind of thing.

Kristin 43:19

So as you said, you don't you don't do fitting, but you do recommend fitters. Is there I do is there how do you decide who to recommend? Let's put that. Let's rather than how do you find one? Like how do you decide of the people you recommend?

Steve 43:34

It's availability, right? I mean and it's feedback from people from customers that I sent out.

Kristin 43:41

Okay, right. That they've done good jobs.

Steve 43:43

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So and it can be helpful to follow fitters on you know social media. Um, because they provide a lot of they they provide a lot of insight. I think also and they put out a lot of information that you're you're kind of you'd think they'd hold close to the chest, but they don't. And and so it can be really helpful to get yourself into a uh to a gray area, you know, or nice uh a fairly narrow gray area.

Kristin 44:08

Well, and I think it can also help you just understand what could change, what's possible. Oh, what's possible? If you if you watch some of these, it's it's it's what's possible. You're not gonna become a professional um bike fitter by watching another one's videos. You're not gonna become a bike mechanic by listening to Steve the Bike Guy. Right. But it lets you see what's possible so that maybe you can do something yourself and then you can take that jump. In that case, I'm guessing for them, a an informed customer is their best, right? What is it? It says an in for an informed person is my best customer.

Steve 44:46

Here and we can finish up with this. Um, I just saw a video from a professional fitter of something I had never seen from any fitting video before or even read about. And that was they showed a woman on her bike, and her and she had sort of this, she looked pretty good, but she had this arched back. Okay. And and then what he had her do is basically do these squats. And in the squats um on the floor, her back was nice and straight as it should be, right? So she was having her sort of do a proper squat lift holding these these um dumbbells. And he said, Okay, I'm seeing that your your back is straight as I want it to be in this, so we should get you back straight. Your back should be straight on the bike then. It's not a physical thing, okay, right?

Kristin 45:35

Yes.

Steve 45:36

And all actually, I don't know if it was the fit or was a he or she, but um, all they did was they changed the s her saddle.

Kristin 45:45

Okay.

Steve 45:46

And it was, I want to say it was more of a cutout saddle. Okay. And this allowed her pelvis to rotate just slightly more forward, and that straightened her back.

Kristin 45:58

Wow.

Steve 45:58

And I had never seen that aspect of the relationship of the part to the fit.

Kristin 46:06

We're gonna put uh a link in the show notes to that. I think the other good reminder on any of this is what works for one person is not gonna work for someone else. And you just have to look at professional riders and go, that doesn't look right. But if it works for them, I'll use Alexandra Keller as the best example of that. You know, you see her ride and she's hunched, she's always so hunched over her mouth. She's so hunched over, so uncomfortable. Yes, and yet she is a world champion, so we're all shut up now, right?

Steve 46:34

Yeah, so she's like, Your temptation might be Whereas Jenny is Jenny Rizbez is super upright.

Kristin 46:39

Yeah, exactly. And again, might not be, which is why we don't say things to strangers in the woods, because we don't know why they are the way they are. But I think it's just important too that if you look at other riders and you think, oh, they look like this, I should look like that. That is not the case. And that's why a bike fitter can also be a good tool, a good, a good resource.

Steve 47:00

Yes.

Kristin 47:01

All right, what's next?

Steve 47:03

I guess we have 36-inch wheels again.

Kristin 47:06

Yeah, you actually wanted to talk about this last week, and I said no because I was tired of it. Then a funny thing started to happen, which is all the enthusiasm seemed to flip. I started to see headlines like Velo magazine 32-inch wheels are leaving everyday riders behind. The cycling industry says a massive new standard is faster and inevitable. You aren't buying it, and that is exactly the right stance. Then we had Cycling Weekly, who said when someone offers you more comfort and more speed on the bike, you don't say no. But what if it comes with a bunch of caveats, including more weight, more expense? Perhaps you'd like to take it. But I'm gonna confess to emitting an inward sigh when I saw that 32-inch wheels were now officially a quote unquote thing in the gravel world.

Steve 47:57

Yeah.

Kristin 47:58

And I and I watched listen to another podcast, and they were at um Sea Otter, and they said the same thing about 32-inch wheels. It it there's a real um Regina George vibe of like stop trying to make fetch happen with 32-inch wheels. So I thought I would let you I I I thought I would give you back the Okay.

Steve 48:18

You can talk about it. We'll just we'll we'll do uh keep this brief in the what is going to be a rolling 32-inch wheel conversation on many podcasts here. So, yes. One little background here on 32-inch wheels. The industry is desperate to have you buy new stuff. Desperate. Um everyone owns a very good mountain bike now, and there are only marginal gains to be had off of new designs and so forth. Right. And quite frankly, the current situation of mountain bike brands is not necessarily viable. There are too many brands, and you buy a bike and then you that's it. The the bike brand gets their their cut out of that bike, but they don't see anything else. Right. And so they need to sell you, they need to sell you a new thing. And this now they're salivating at a new thing because this is not you replacing your great 29 or mountain bike with another great 29er mountain bike. Right. Um so that's that's where this is coming from. All right.

Kristin 49:37

Um and there are real issues. I think that's what we want to talk about. Is like it's not just there are there are real issues. You know, I mean, we've talked about the fact that we already have a problem with making bikes for small people, and this is not helping that. Like if we'd like to get more people on bikes, there's a lot of small people not on bikes. So if you want to innovate on something, how about make more smaller bikes? That's what I would say to the bike industry. I would say more more sizes for more people who want to get on bikes. But you go ahead with whatever else is going on with the 32 inches.

Steve 50:18

Well, there's a definite aspect of 32 where you can say for tall riders, and I'm gonna when I say tall, I mean I'll be generous and say six two and up. I think it's a little problem a little bit more like six three, six, four and up. Okay, but cool. Um great, right? And so there you can absolutely see now you can see that being a a benefit, and there are brands now that have models that say in the extra small and small size, they might come with 27 and a half inch wheels, right? And then the rest of the sizes come in 29. Yeah, so you could actually see a situation where the XXLs have 32. The thing is, though, is that there statistically are way, way more people who need extra smalls than there are who need XXLs. They're just that's just numbers in the world.

Kristin 51:19

Yes, yeah, right?

Steve 51:20

I yep. And it takes a lot of there's a lot of parts and a lot of of moving systems to make a 32-inch wheel bike. So we'll is it does it make financial sense for companies to do it if not everybody's going to adopt it, and if it's only a very narrow band of very, very tall riders. Right. Um and so I just listened to a a podcast. I wish I could give him a shout-out, I don't remember which one it was, but they talked to Stinner Frameworks at Sea Otter. Okay. And it was um it was a good interview with the guy from Stinner, and you know, he was talking about all of this trial and error. I mean, they're able to he can go into his workshop and he can build a frame and be riding it tomorrow. I mean, that's what a a custom uh you know frame builder um is able to do. Yeah, and that's why a lot of these 32-inch wheel bikes are you're seeing from custom builders.

Kristin 52:15

Okay.

Steve 52:16

And they're still trial and erring these all of these different geometries. We've had comments, I think, on some of our posts where people are like, oh, the industry knows they they they know geometry now, they've got it nailed down, they'll just be able to pop out these 32s and them. No, that's what we were saying last time we talked about this is don't worry. Like, it's going to take even if it becomes a thing, it's gonna take multiple generations to get good.

Kristin 52:42

Well, I was gonna say, didn't you read a review of the who came out with a salsa? They came out with a 32-inch.

Steve 52:49

Yep, the Fargo. And they're going, they're going quite all in on this.

Kristin 52:52

Yeah, but wasn't the review something like it does not turn?

Steve 52:56

Like it does not Yeah, basically that's what they said. Right.

Kristin 52:59

It's really good at going straight.

Steve 53:00

And and this is what the Sinner guy says. You know, he was saying exactly, he's just repeating what I've heard many other people say. Right. The the rolling speed is fantastic. So that in this case, he he was um looking at with the interviewer um a gravel bike that he had made.

Kristin 53:18

Okay.

Steve 53:18

And and I'm and of course, in my head, I'm thinking, oh yeah, I guess unbound would be a perfect example for this. If you're a tall rider and unbound, and then he mentions how this would be perfect for unbound. You've got open planes, uh you know, just open roads, essentially straight. And you know, and then the rolling speed of this would be fantastic for that. But that it is not, it it really has its limitations in the tight and turn, tight, the tight turns. Um, and then he said we like he's a tall guy, apparently, he said, and he said we tried even making a medium, but the the toe overlap is a problem. Now, toe overlap, for you don't know, if you have your foot on the pedal, yes, and the pedal is placed forward, if you now turn the handlebars left, right? Will your tire hit your front of your shoe? Now, on road bikes, that's the case. Many road bikes have toe overlap. It doesn't matter. You're you're never gonna hit it on a normal road ride. Okay, even mainly in gravel rides. It is only in tight turns. So people notice it when they're like come to a parking lot and they start going around a little tight circle on a parking lot and they get wow, wow, I just hit my foot, yeah.

Kristin 54:37

Okay, yep.

Steve 54:39

Whereas they've been riding thousands of miles every year and they never notice it before. Right. But in a mountain bike, it matters. Yeah. All right, and you can't you can't have that in a mountain bike, but you can't it it's there's a very sounds like there's a very difficult issue to make a bike small with such a huge wheel and not but not make it right otherwise your reach of the bars is too far, and now this this person who's five foot eight can't reach the bars, so you have to bring it in, and therefore you have toe overlap. Got it. So this is all these problems.

Kristin 55:14

Um and then you have this list too, which I didn't even think about, but there's all other stuff.

Steve 55:20

Okay, a lot of car racks will not fit 32-inch wheel bikes. Uh, one up apparently just came out with a machined aluminum adapter to make to extend their racks. Okay, okay. But that uh their rack is a little bit unique and not everybody will do that. So so maybe your car rack now won't work. Your your six, seven hundred dollar plus you know, nice car rack will not fit your 32-inch wheel bike.

Kristin 55:45

And what if I want to take my bike out to unbound?

Steve 55:47

Then you have travel bags, those won't fit it. Okay. Um everybody right now is just doing tubeless, but of course, a lot of people want an inner tube as that ultimate, ultimate spare, even if they're running tubeless, especially when you're doing big adventure rides like unbound.

Kristin 56:01

You don't get to have it.

Steve 56:02

Nobody's making a 32-inch tube yet. Now, that might come, but it's not there yet. And then one thing I thought about, which I which was which I haven't heard anybody say, right, is the shipping boxes from the manufacturers. Now, 29-inch mountain bikes are 29-inch wheel on a mountain bike is exactly the same diameter as a as a 700C on a road bike. They are the same wheel size. Okay. Okay. Now, a mountain bike tire is fatter, so it's a little bit bigger. Right. But in general, everything that was made back in the day didn't really have a problem adapting to a 29 or mountain bikes when those became common because it was close enough to road bikes.

Kristin 56:49

Okay.

Steve 56:49

Right? And especially with or or even like cyclocross bikes, which have been around forever. And you know, and road bikes with a little bigger or a tire. So that wasn't really a problem. Um, but now uh, like so the manufacturers ship in cardboard boxes to all the dealers, right? And those boxes typically are the maximum that UPS and FedEx will take. And in fact, they've negotiated these bikes, these box sizes. Okay, well, now the these these 32-inch wheel bikes are now longer and taller. So the box has to become much bigger. So now the bike makers, oh, and they're gonna be heavier. So the bike makers are now going to have to renegotiate and say, UPS and FedEx, will you take these? Right. They might say no, or they might say yeah, but it's an extra hundred bucks. So it you can see the steamrolling effect here of all the problems.

Kristin 57:45

Stop trying to make fetch happen.

Steve 57:47

It it is, and when you see some of these bikes, especially in the some who have tried smaller sizes, yeah, you are really, really trying to fit a human on a machine that is not sized appropriately for them.

Kristin 58:04

It's just out of proportion. It just feels wildly out of proportion.

Steve 58:06

It is really trying to, yes, yes.

Kristin 58:09

Okay. So that's 32 inch wheels for now.

Steve 58:12

For now.

Kristin 58:13

Okay. Speaking of things the bike that um the industry is trying to sell, we get a couple of questions about flight attendant. Okay. Um, number one, somebody asked on our video, what about jumps and drops? And I'm guessing that the question there is how quickly does flight attendant responds. Okay, because we didn't address this last time. Yeah, I mean, it's just it was I I don't have a this was literally the question they shared our shared our videos a story, and it just it said, What about jumps and drops? Got it.

Steve 58:48

Okay, so that system is taking in data multiple times per second and can change its setting under a second. So it knows when you're in the air.

Kristin 59:01

Okay.

Steve 59:02

So it knows when when you go off of a jump, it knows, and so it is open for that landing.

Kristin 59:09

Okay.

Steve 59:09

Yeah.

Kristin 59:10

The second comment we got was isn't this about to be banned?

Steve 59:15

Yeah.

Kristin 59:15

Flight attendant. And and apparently there was a post about how the UCI announced an immediate ban on all electronic components in downhill racing, including suspension systems and other performance-based technologies.

Steve 59:29

Okay. Downhill racing is its own unique discipline.

Kristin 59:33

Okay.

Steve 59:33

Right. So this is, and I think what I read about this is they are trying to make sure that the the playing field is a little bit more level between private tears and and lower budget teams and the top tier teams.

Kristin 59:53

Yeah.

Steve 59:54

Because it can mean more in downhill racing than it can in cross-country racing.

Kristin 1:00:01

Okay.

Steve 1:00:02

Um, right.

Kristin 1:00:02

So do you think there's a chance it could get banned for cross-country?

Steve 1:00:05

I don't think so, no. Okay. No.

Kristin 1:00:08

Okay. Then we got a comment. This is gonna lead into the next thing and the last thing we're gonna talk about in this on this episode. Um, we posted our video about flight attendant, and somebody commented, shops are selling it, and people love this system.

Steve 1:00:24

Yeah.

Kristin 1:00:25

Which immediately put my radar up because I was like, what a weird thing to say. So then, of course, I clicked on the person and I'm looking at the person's video. Now, this person has not updated their Instagram in a in a bit, let's say a year, but their last five to ten are all from Waterloo.

Steve 1:00:43

Okay.

Kristin 1:00:43

What's in Waterloo?

Steve 1:00:44

Trucks in Waterloo.

Kristin 1:00:45

Treks in Waterloo, okay. And then you go even further back, and this person seems to be behind the scenes at a lot of SRAM events. Right? So then, in and the person does not use their full name, right? It's not identified who they are, it's just a username, but it's enough that I can tell it's a last name. So being the cyber stalker that I am, yes, I found them on LinkedIn. And they are a sales rep for SRAM.

Steve 1:01:11

Mm-hmm.

Kristin 1:01:13

I have some thoughts on it.

Steve 1:01:14

We're just gonna say Ed from SRAM.

Kristin 1:01:16

I wasn't even gonna say that, but sure. Ed from SRAM. I have a couple of thoughts on this. Number one is I want to use this as an example that I think we all have to be really thoughtful or careful when we see enthusiastic comments and posts about what people's motivations are, right? I think our motivations are pretty clear. You are Steve the bike guy, you are a bike shop. So, yeah, you want to sell stuff, right? We're we're pretty clear about who you are. Um, but people could be commenting that are influencers that are being reimbursed by the the brand. They could, like in this person's case, be the brand. Be the brand or be a representative of the of the brand. And I think that's important because it it's they're trying to show an enthusiasm for a thing. And if you're thinking of this as like authentic, just think twice, right? Like be careful because they have some skin in the game.

Steve 1:02:13

But I'm also gonna say which you're gonna see a lot of for 32-inch wheels. Yeah, by the way, you're gonna see a lot of comments thinking it's just some random guy and it's gonna be an industry person. Yeah, and I and a bike brand.

Kristin 1:02:25

And I'm gonna say for those who maybe don't really know my background, but I have been an influencer. I have been, I have been engaged by brands Chevrolet, Intel, um, embassy suites, I have been paid to be an influencer. And there were very clear guidelines for us, even at the beginning days of this, that you needed to reveal your relationship. Yeah. Right? The FTC actually has guidelines that if you are, if you have a relationship with an advertiser or in any reimbursable way, you need to reveal that relationship when you're talking about anything. So I'm gonna say the same to these people. If you are someone who is in any way connected to a brand, then it is on you to say that. It's totally fine for this person to say what they said, but it should have started with I work for SRAM. Right. And the shops are selling it and people love this system. Yeah.

Steve 1:03:27

Which by the way, we didn't say anybody didn't like it. We sort of I in fact I think it's great.

Kristin 1:03:31

No, it was a the comment was fine, except that it was so like woo-y that I was like, this is weird. Like this, what a weird way to say something. Shops are selling it and people are loving it, right? And we've gotten other comments. We're not gonna call out the other person, but we've gotten other comments that you're like, buddy, I know you have some skin in the game, and but you're commenting on your person with your personal account, right? And you're not revealing that relationship. Right. And it bugs me, bugs me. Okay. So there you go. Am I wrong?

Steve 1:04:07

No, you're not wrong.

Kristin 1:04:08

Okay. Good answer, sweetie.

Steve 1:04:14

Yeah, imagine if we if if it was required that every, you know, bot had to say they were a bot, you know, a comment was a bot.

Kristin 1:04:21

That would be wonderful. But I mean, it used to be AI bot here. Back in the day, back right, back in the day when I was working, I was writing for Real Simple Magazine and I was getting free stuff all the time, right? I rem remember we used to get like Nintendo Switches on the on the no Nintendo DSs. That's what they were called. Like every other week, yeah, Nintendo would send me a new DS to the point that I was like, I can't write about these this much. But the one time I wrote about it, it started with I received from Nintendo a DS to test at no charge, right? Like I always reveal it doesn't take a lot to reveal a relationship, so that everybody has some context. Right. And it's just important, you know, it's just it's we should we can be held to a slightly higher standard here. And it doesn't dis it doesn't discount your enthusiasm for a thing. If anything, it shows you're more informed about it than the average person. I'm cool with that. So, okay. On that note, I think we should wrap this up.

Steve 1:05:29

I think we should.

Kristin 1:05:30

I could I have other topics, but we'll just have told them for next time.

Steve 1:05:33

Wait till next time.

Kristin 1:05:34

Exactly. All right, cycling together with Kristen and Steve is a production of Steve the Bike Guy, an independent bicycle shop in eastern Massachusetts, and Sundon Marketing, a full service marketing communications agency.

Steve 1:05:45

If you like the show, please leave a review or share with a friend. For show notes, links, or to leave a comment, question, or topic suggestion, visit cycling together.bike.

Kristin 1:05:54

You can follow the shop on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. By the way, we're trying to sell you stuff at

Steve 1:06:01

All right, we'll see you next time.

Kristin 1:06:02

Bye.