Out of the Blue - The Podcast: Finding the Way Forward
Out of the Blue-the Podcast features interviews with inspirational survivors of traumatic out of the blue events who have overcome unimaginable challenges, sharing their stories of resilience and triumph. By sharing these stories, "Out of the Blue" aims to create a community where others who have faced similar hardships can find solace and strength as together, we find the way forward.
Out of the Blue - The Podcast: Finding the Way Forward
Healing the Trauma That Shapes Us with Dr. Marti Loring
What if the anxiety, irritability, or sleepless nights you're experiencing aren't just "normal stress," but signs of trauma you're carrying? In this profound conversation with trauma expert Dr. Marti Loring, we uncover how trauma shapes our lives in ways most people never recognize.
Dr. Loring, a pioneering voice in trauma research and author of "Emotional Abuse: The Trauma and Treatment," shatters common misconceptions about trauma, revealing it's not just for war veterans or disaster survivors—it's something we all experience to varying degrees. "Trauma has often been called a normal reaction to an abnormal situation," she explains, offering listeners permission to recognize their struggles without shame.
The discussion takes unexpected turns as we explore how trauma manifests through hyper-vigilance, emotional numbing, avoidance, and even physical symptoms. Dr. Loring addresses how today's non-stop news cycle and pandemic experiences have created collective trauma, leaving many feeling helpless and disconnected from themselves. But rather than leaving listeners in despair, she offers practical, actionable strategies for reclaiming power: selectively engaging with causes that matter to you, finding community through in-person connections, and taking meaningful action.
Perhaps most touching is Dr. Loring's emphasis on self-kindness as the foundation for healing. "Be kind to yourself," becomes the mantra of our conversation—a simple yet profound reminder that healing begins with compassion for our own struggles. She provides listeners with a practical self-assessment checklist and encourages professional support through therapy or counseling.
Whether you're grappling with anxiety, feeling overwhelmed by world events, or simply seeking to understand yourself better, this episode offers both validation and hope. Finding meaning through helping others can transform trauma into purpose, and connection—to ourselves and each other—might be our most powerful medicine in troubled times.
Trauma Self-Assessment Checklist:
- How anxious are you and how often?
- How are you getting along with other people?
- Are you irritable or distrustful?
- Do you find yourself having trouble sleeping?
- Do you tend to react in an anxious way to other things?
- Are you feeling depressed and hopeless and helpless?
- Do you have so little energy?
- Do you have flashbacks to things in the past?
- Do thoughts and images intrude into your thinking so it’s hard to concentrate?
- Do you forget or ‘tune out’ on parts of your life, unable to remember?
Contact Dr. Marti Loring: mloring@earthlink.net
Out Of The Blue:
For more: outoftheblue-thepodcast.org
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Welcome back to Out of the Blue, the podcast, where real people share powerful stories of resilience and transformation. I'm your host, vernon West, joined by my daughter and co-host, jackie West, our social media manager, a professional musician and Reiki healer, and thank you, as always, for spending this time with us. Don't forget to hit that like and subscribe button, because it truly helps get the word out there. Our very special guest today is Dr Marty Lauren, a leading trauma expert based in Atlanta and a pioneering voice on how trauma, especially in today's political and cultural climate, shapes our lives in unseen ways. She's a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist and author of Emotional Abuse, the Trauma and the Treatment, a groundbreaking work that redefined how we understand emotional trauma. Her expertise spans everything from wartime wounds and natural disasters to political coercion and the everyday trauma we often carry in silence. Dr Loring has developed a transformative model for healing, helping people not just survive but reclaim their peace, their voice and their power. Let's dive in. Good afternoon, dr Loring, and welcome to Out of the Blue, the podcast.
Speaker 2:And good afternoon to you as well.
Speaker 1:So off we go. Tell us all about that book and how you came into this, really how you came into this field. Even I'm curious to know how you launched yourself in this direction. Out of all the many directions you could have gone right, you went for trauma.
Speaker 2:I began seeing that a lot of individuals who were experiencing family violence or a lot of anxiety seemed to be struggling with trauma as well. In fact, when individuals strike back in family violence, feel really uncomfortable after experiencing trauma, it's often not because of having any physical abuse. It's often because of some of the emotional issues that we face in life. So, in other words, it's not always someone physically abusing them or an event itself. It's often the emotional reaction to the event that can cause someone to feel various symptoms of trauma and not even necessarily know what it is, so it's as puzzling to them as it is to their loved ones.
Speaker 1:So how would people recognize they have trauma? I mean, is that something easy to notice and what are the signs?
Speaker 2:That's an excellent question. One thing is something minor like feeling irritable. Someone may give you feedback. You certainly seem irritable these days and if you take a good look at yourself, they may be right. But it's not because you harbor any grudge toward them. It's because of this feeling of grumbling anxiety which goes on and on inside you.
Speaker 2:Someone may forget some of what caused them the trauma in the first place and actually have periods of time and parts of what the traumatic event was that they don't even remember. That's what trauma can do. It can steal away our memories for periods of time. And there are other symptoms, and that could easily include always feeling anxious and being what they call hypervigilant. So you may be sitting, still trying to relax, and all of a sudden you hear a sound, a bump, or see someone whiz by and you jump as if someone had hit you and look around. It's being jumpy, hypervigilant. Those are just some of the ways that a person can wonder what's wrong with me? And it's not necessarily anything wrong with you. It's more what is happening that's causing me to have this reaction. Trauma has often been called a normal reaction to an abnormal event, so we really shouldn't blame ourselves for it.
Speaker 1:So the hypervigilant and jumpy I mean. There's a lot of people out there that would probably say that, yeah, that's normal for me, but is it normal? It's not normal, is it? People should not. How would we get out of that? Well, I guess, when we know the symptoms, what's the way out of them?
Speaker 2:Treatment, talking to someone like yourself, or it's always good to talk with a counselor or therapist. Some people who see psychiatrists even wind up taking some medications. Often, though, when a person has come to realize that indeed, they have trauma, it may be trauma. It may be so big that it's called post-traumatic stress disorder.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's the extreme version of trauma.
Speaker 2:The extreme version or even more extreme. It can be complex post-traumatic stress disorder or PTSD. That's people who are traumatized as children. They may have had any number of offenses that traumatize them and then they grow to be adults and they're still carrying like a heavy knapsack, they're still carrying that trauma from childhood. So they may wind up, when they're traumatized as adults to have the severe and complex PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder.
Speaker 2:And I really shouldn't leave out any real important symptoms, one of which is numbing. You may see someone and they just seem so numb. This is particularly important in a court case. The jury may look, say, well, this person doesn't seem to feel at all badly about what they may have had a part in doing, not necessarily so. They may feel so badly and so guilty and full of horror that they just go numb. It's a lack of affect or feeling. And you look at them and boy, you sure can't see it if it's there. But if someone asks them a question relating to how badly they feel, they may just burst into sobbing and not even be able to stop.
Speaker 2:So I should certainly remember numbing as well as avoidance. You know it's the hardest thing to get someone with post-traumatic stress disorder or trauma into therapy. I've gone to any number of homes in the past, like with veterans or others. They just don't want to come out and get therapy because it hurts to talk about the buddies they've seen killed in action or other things, and they may feel better off just avoiding it Because it still is down there rumbling away, maybe even causing them stomach aches or headaches. But avoidance is a big hallmark of trauma too.
Speaker 1:Is something like that transferable? Like, for example, my father. He had been in the korean war and he was severely traumatized, severely a lot of ptsd really. He should tell me stories about those traumas, traumatic experiences, but as a kid I felt traumatized by hearing them because they were. They were really. You know, someone died in the story and there was death involved. And I'm maybe 12 here in the story as he's crying on the bed I'm saying why are you crying, dad? Is it transferable in that way from your parents?
Speaker 2:certainly. I mean, I'm sure you loved your dad you're a very kind and loving person and your dad, sure it must have been very heartbreaking for you and then to see him crying and you saw his pain. I think, certainly. I think that's a very important idea that at some of the Holocaust victims, some of their children now adult children have talked about feeling traumatized when their parents repeat the experiences.
Speaker 1:That's very interesting and concerning in a way, for a lot of us. I definitely feel that I feel some of those. You know after effects you mentioned numbing being one Don't people like? For example, a lot of people turn to drugs. A lot of those guys that come out of the war, they end up on heroin. They end up numbing themselves with chemicals, you know, with substances. They end up numbing themselves with chemicals, you know, with substances, and I, you know, I've I've seen that a lot with. You know all substances. People are using substances to numb themselves and when they finally come around and maybe through a 12 step program or whatever they, you know, they uncover what it was and then they start getting some healing. But I mean, so many people are probably walking around, don't know this and don't on addressing it, because it isn't so obvious as maybe just having a beer at the end of the night. Maybe they're just having a glass of wine every night, maybe it's just something very innocuous, but it's numbing them, it's pushing down the feelings.
Speaker 2:You are so right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm wondering about the what do you think about the pandemic? I'm wondering about that. I think that I talk about this with doctors and stuff and they always they would agree that the pandemic has caused a lot of definitely concern, because there's the people out there don't even know that they would maybe traumatized through that experience. It was very traumatic.
Speaker 2:It was for so many reasons. I lost my own sister in the pandemic. She died of COVID and a lot of people had very sad losses.
Speaker 1:My mother, oh my.
Speaker 2:You know exactly what I mean. I'm so sorry too and many people felt helpless, like what can I do for me to be safe and the people I love? And many did the COVID shots and all, but still there's a sense of helplessness. And you know, sometimes when people with trauma are feeling that their numbing isn't working because that's just a cover up, just like drugs you so wisely mentioned Sometimes they'll have an outburst and they'll wonder what just happened and they didn't mean to. They just kind of got angry all of a sudden because of the trauma.
Speaker 2:In one book I wrote, called Intimate Coercion, recognition and Recovery, it had to do with people in an intimate relationship who felt pushed into doing things but didn't really know what was happening. I feel like to recognize what you have going on, when it's trauma that allows you to recover from it. Like you mentioned your wonderful program, which I have watched some of and it's very inspiring. It's people who, I think, have recognized their, the traumatic event and then they want to recover in a way that's meaningful and many of them want to give to others, some of whom aren't recognizing. They say, well, let me help you recognize what you went through, because I've gone through it. Here's how I've recovered. Maybe you can find meaning in this, because there's really nothing better for trauma than to find meaning where you can help others.
Speaker 1:Find meaning. That's a great piece of advice. Right there I'm thinking about, you know, I think about like ever since podcasts have been going out and I encounter people out there and I talked to someone that, like I remember when we did the podcast about a woman with breast cancer and I found her so inspiring and I wanted every woman that I knew who had dealt with that you should see this, you'll love it. But a few of them said I can't handle it. I don't think I can handle it. I don't want to hear about someone else hurting. And it took you know the ones that were brave enough to listen to that. They all came back and said it was very helpful, and so it was even helpful to people like the siblings or the children of that person to hear that you know, oh, how wonderful.
Speaker 2:And you were right, actually, that it probably would have been helpful to every single woman you recommended it for. However, that issue of avoidance when you have trauma because there's such pain with trauma and it's understandable that one would want to push it away and avoid it, but sometimes the very thing that would help the most watching that inspiring contest talking to a therapist, that inspiring contest talking to a therapist they're still avoiding it because, like with drugs, they're avoiding the pain, which is certainly understandable.
Speaker 1:Right, right. Oh, of course, I definitely understood when a woman would say that to me. One woman was in tears telling me that I'm not ready to do that. I completely understood and I, as I completely understood, and I would never push the person any further. I just mentioned it that you might find it helpful.
Speaker 2:Yes, Perfect way to do it and I can understand that you would do it that way because you really empathize with people. I'm glad you gave them the opportunity and I'm so glad for the people who are able to do it. Maybe sometime you heard back from one or two of the others saying you know, when you mentioned such and such, can I listen to it now?
Speaker 1:Sometimes people get back in touch with you afterward and are able to go forth. Yeah, that's true. Actually, one of those ladies did finally listen to it, and then she texted me back and said how wonderful it was oh, how great and I'm so happy about that.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean, that's what it's all about, really sure, um, that helps my trauma. Really, I'm probably doing it to help my own trauma right to just to help others is a way to get out of your own pain. Yes, my life, that's been sort of the theme of my life. I mean, I played music for many years because I was in pain and I and I was helping people feel better. I played music for many years because I was in pain and I was helping people feel better and that made me feel better because I was going through my father's situation and stuff.
Speaker 2:That's so true. That's one of the many reasons your podcast is so valuable because it helps people see that you actually can often find meaning in trauma. You actually can often find meaning in trauma.
Speaker 1:That's what I think it is. I mean as bad as the pandemic was, and I think we're going to go on to other bad things that are happening in our society right now, as bad as they are. I found that through Out of the Blue. Maybe I've already thought this, maybe before I did Out of the Blue, but everything is a teacher. You know, pain is a teacher. I mean, you can learn so much from looking at what it is that's bothering you, that's hurting you, and you know it unfolds maybe a meaning that gives you a larger purpose in your life. That's what it's done for me. So I find that to be, you know, useful. Pain is useful. I don't want God to hear me say that too loud, because I don't want any more God, no, no, no, no, I've had enough. Don't say that either, because you know what I'm knocking on wood. I don't know why I do that. Does God hear the wood louder, or something?
Speaker 2:Why don't we knock on wood? You have a marvelous sense of humor. I think that helps with trauma too.
Speaker 1:Oh, definitely, yeah, I think so. I think that my wife and I laugh a lot, you know, and sensitive humor is essential to living as far as I'm concerned. Some of my best friends are comedians, you know, and they're very you know. When we talk they would crack me up. But comedians can be very sad, usually have very dark experiences. It's true that they're using the comedy to help, the same way I'm using this podcast, so I use music to help people. Helps you.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think it inspires people too. I think the fact that you're so open about what this podcast means to you and in helping other people, I think that must mean a lot to people who are feeling hopeless, which is another symptom of trauma, sometimes hopelessness. I think that many would feel, oh gosh, listen to what he's done Kind of inspired.
Speaker 1:Gosh listen to what he's done, kind of inspired, I hope so. That's my hope. I mean, this covers everything we're about really, because what are we talking about really? In a sense, we're talking about surviving trauma, and it comes in all shapes and sizes. Sometimes it's, you know, and this one here. This is why I think it's so important their work, because you're exposing some of the things that I really wasn't thinking about. Now I'm thinking about, really, how the pandemic is traumatic.
Speaker 1:Now we're also now moving on to, I think you know, the events that happen like tragedies in the news. I don't know how people they have to numb themselves to it. I think that's what's happening with the way the media is handling the 24-7 news cycle, because now there isn't a, there isn't a moment that they don't cover something bad. Because there's something bad. It's a huge world. Let's face it right. Yes, Something bad happened somewhere, true, and in the news business, if it bleeds, it leads. That's how they get eyeballs by saying something bad is going on. Everyone goes click, click, click. What is this, you know? So how do we deal with that? We just have to tune it out. Really, we have to stop watching the news I don and we just have to tune it out, really, we have to stop watching the news. I don't think that that's really. Is that the only solution? I don't think it is, though that's the sort of that would be.
Speaker 3:Uh, I think I think there is a. There's so much going on and it's really important to learn how to effectively engage and to, like you know, we have our computers. We don't need to watch. I don't want to exclude anybody by naming any news platforms but, like you, get to choose your news. At this point, we have a lot of choice.
Speaker 1:We might not for a very long time considering some things, but yeah, I just think that that's kind of an older paradigm to think that we don't have any choice no, I think, in terms of maybe the older generation, who is not as savvy, my age and older, whatever they, they basically, uh, are married to the tv for their news. They don't actually have not learned to use the computer and their phone, and I've tried to educate certain people that I know from that age group. They just don't want to. I'm watching Fox News, I'm watching NBC and that's what I'm going to do.
Speaker 3:I understand that it's easy. It's a really chaotic world and what do you do when you're in a lot of chaos? You just want to be still you want some can something consistent.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, people you trust, perhaps, or the newscasters, a form of something you're used to and trust. You know it's been. Um, research has shown that if you do watch something that induces trauma, over and over and over, it makes you a little more traumatized each time that you watch it. So I think that it may be useful these days to make choices for yourself, like how many times are you going to watch the news about the tragedy of the flooding in Texas, the news about the tragedy of the flooding in Texas? Or is there going to be a point where you're going to say, well, I've seen this several times. I think I'm going to call the Red Cross or see what I can do about this. Nothing that would be more useful for helplessness or hopelessness than to choose a plan of action.
Speaker 1:Absolutely action.
Speaker 2:I've heard've heard that.
Speaker 1:Yes, I heard that said many a few times actually, that if you, you can know the solution, but if you don't take action, the action is how you get out of that it's not so encouraged publicly.
Speaker 1:You know, it's obfuscated on purpose what would you say is obfuscating it? The media themselves? Sure, yeah, I mean I think they should. They want you coming back, so they're going to find a way to leave a cliffhanger of some kind in their report. You know, come on, come back tomorrow to find out X, y, z. You know, they just want to keep you coming. And then that applies now to also the political climate, not just American, but the world. Now, that's also concerning too. Do you think that's causing a lot of trauma in the world?
Speaker 2:Yes, I do think so. I'm writing a book about that. At this time, it's not which side you're on, or what you believe or don't believe, or what your values are side you're on, or what you believe or don't believe, or what your values are. It's really everyone, I think, who's experiencing some, no matter how small or how big, some sort of traumas. There's so many changes, for example, and losses, and one grieves with losses which can be traumatic as well.
Speaker 1:How can we do? What can we do to go? In your book you have some powerful solutions, I think. I want to hear that.
Speaker 2:I think one thing is we've got to control how much we take in and how we take it in. How much of the news are you going to watch? And then I have just hundreds and hundreds of emails coming in about the various things that are going on in the world and our country. So I've selected five individuals and groups where I really like what they're doing. I follow them, I read about these five, I contribute financially to them. These five, I contribute financially to them If they say do this, like give a little money to this particular candidate, or that I'm likely to do that.
Speaker 2:So that's a way I can focus and not just be overwhelmed. And a third thing I think is valuable is if there's a group that you like to go to. Some of them have weekly meetings, some monthly, some on Zoom, some you go yourself. I think that's a really nice way to feel a sense of community, that you're being involved. And any action that you can find helps, takes away guilt on our part. Helps takes away guilt on our part, because when one sees various people suffering in different ways, one tendencies to feel helpless and guilty, even hopeless, which all can lead to trauma, together or alone. And I think to know. These are three things that are really important to me, three areas, and here's how I'm addressing each one Gives one a sense of accomplishment, a power, less helplessness, certainly less guilt, because you're really working at doing things, whether it's money or other ways, but you're giving I wrote down donate, community and action.
Speaker 2:Yes, really selecting. Yes, Really selecting.
Speaker 1:Oh, selective donations, yeah, three to five groups of people and keep up with them. Right, that's a good one. You see it on your email.
Speaker 2:This I'm going to read, and they will often guide you. Here's a candidate or here's an activity, and since you've selected them, it's likely to be something you might want to do on occasion. So I think when you choose donating that's a great word to use You're donating of yourself, or your time or your money, and then you don't feel quite so helpless and hopeless and traumatized because you're being very powerful really.
Speaker 1:You're empowering yourself. You're taking your power back. That's what you do, exactly.
Speaker 2:And it's powerful.
Speaker 1:Really, you're empowering yourself, you're taking your power back, that's what you do exactly and it's well set so it's aligned with your values definitely yeah, you find the right people, though, that you can do that with, you know, and then then you tune into that and tune out all the noise, maybe, and focus on those, those people that you actually believe in their causes.
Speaker 2:That's just so well said. That's exactly it. And then you have a sense of your own values, because trauma can make us lose ourselves to some extent and this reminds us, oh, I really do value this and I'm doing such and such toward it. Just we feel a sense of who we are and what we're continuing to do.
Speaker 1:Right, right. And then the act of getting in groups, going to have meetings with people that could be well. There's 12-step groups, there's social clubs.
Speaker 2:There's one group called In Town Atlanta Women that I like, and they talk about politics these days. Choose the area that you're most concerned about, and then they set up separate tables and at these tables you discuss what you think can be done to help and you meet very interesting people, form friendships and so you're not quite so isolated.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, so isolation definitely is something to not it's really. You know, I saw a study that said that loneliness is climbing. Like it's like 33% of people that the number was something like that are lonely, and it's hard to fathom that with everything out there, with the phone connecting everybody instantly Facebook, Instagram, all the social medias how does one get lonely with all that out there? But I see it happening and I definitely wonder about it. How do we deal with that? Go to those meetings, Go down to your house, Don't just live online.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really important. Online can be very meaningful, no doubt about that. But to be face-to-face and get to know another human being and they show their interest in you and you talk together about problem solving, it really does decrease loneliness, which can lead to trauma and different types of illnesses, types of illnesses. One research study showed that people who were getting older and who were very lonely died earlier than those who were getting older and were not lonely at all. Well, maybe once in a while, but not as a pattern. So we can have a longer life by interacting with others. And one also hears people who are lonely talking about somatic problems. You know they have stomach aches or headaches or hard time getting out of bed in the morning. Loneliness is something in and of itself that can lead to a great deal of sadness.
Speaker 1:I am definitely sure that loneliness causes people to die sooner, because I actually saw it firsthand when I was in the hospital. I spent too long in the hospital one time for my own journey and I saw the ones who were not doing well and they were just lonely. They didn't get visitors. I would try to talk to them. They didn't really want to talk too much but if I got them out of themselves I felt good. But it made me want to do this podcast. It's one of the things that drove me to do this, because I saw how vital it is for people to know they're not alone.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That's why I think I chose the traumatic things. I don't think everybody comes on as a trauma victim, because sometimes people just realize the powerlessness they have over things that happen. That's essentially, you know what I mean. That's essentially what Out of the Blue is about Our own, you know personal powerlessness that there's just so much we can do Like. I love the serenity prayer to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. So that to me, was really epitomizes everything about it. We have to keep the focus on our own self and work on that understanding of our place in the universe. In order to be as vital, to be as helpful, I think we have to help others. I mean that's. I think so many religions say it but not many people realize that is the key helping others, if you get, you really get you out of yourself.
Speaker 2:Exactly, I think that's really true. Interacting with helping others working on a cause. All of a sudden you forgot about that headache or sadness, you know.
Speaker 1:Right, it's brilliant. Everything gets into perspective. I think that's the main thing perspective that one of the worst aspects of loneliness is. It puts your everything, blows everything up, because you're focusing on that stuff.
Speaker 3:This sense of powerlessness also can be paired with a sense of powerlessness also can be paired with a sense of taking back your power, from feeling a loss of control and of self loss of connection to self through the. I guess the ability to surrender to powerlessness. That kind of funnily enough, solidifies your power in yourself.
Speaker 1:It does, because you realize who you can actually change is yourself. If you can change your view and the fact that you are now going to donate and take those steps that Dr Loring is so wonderfully outlining, that you really bring that power back, because you are now empowered to do what you really can do. And you know that some of that stuff's out of your control. I mean it just is. But what is out of our control is whatever we focus on and get to that meeting and donate to that cause. You know those are the things that we can do something about. I'll try anyway. Feel good about that.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think what you're saying is so important, both of you, the whole idea of connecting with ourselves. We don't want anything to cause us to lose a connection to ourselves. I think sometimes it's fun to sit down and imagine different parts of ourselves. We all have different parts. Maybe there's a brave part, there's how tender we are with our dog and hopefully others. The tender part. There's the tender we are with our dog and hopefully others. The tender part. There's the frightened part and other kind of characters within. It's fun sometimes just to sit down and have a meeting with all of them and you know, see what our values are and let each of them speak. And true, as you said, we may not have control over something. Speak. And true, as you said, we may not have control over something, and yet we're so together and coherent and a real sense of our own identity. And maybe go around the circle of all of our parts and find out well, what are, what do we most value about ourselves?
Speaker 1:because sometimes we get kind of down on ourselves too back to one of the subjects that definitely I'm very curious about, and I think would be good to impart this to our listeners, is how can they evaluate their own life? What's a good way to check themselves, to see how? What if they're suffering some trauma? First of all, and if they feel they find, if they find that they're checking off some boxes and yeah, I am numbing, I am this now then the next step would be to identify what it was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so recognize it. I think going to a good psychiatrist, psychologist, sociologist or clinical social workers like myself, a counselor, and having a session where you talk about yourself, when are you in life, you know, are you struggling with anything and if so, what would you like to do about it, To have a kind of a second eye on you who might have some very helpful ideas I think that would be a wonderful thing to do. As one thing, it's always good to read about things. I think watching your podcast is a lovely way for people I noticed you said earlier your partners and you said those who listen. I think they probably feel like your partners in that you care about them and how they feel and what they're going through Listening to a podcast that addresses their needs and others.
Speaker 2:I think it's nothing like getting a good checkup, though. I mean we go to the doctor to get a good checkup once or twice a year. If something hurts we may go to our primary care provider. There's nothing crazy about going to anyone from a clinical sociologist or social worker to a psychologist or psychiatrist. In fact, it's pretty darn smart.
Speaker 2:Just have an evaluation you know, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I completely agree with that. I spoke to someone quite a lot and I stopped recently. But I'm thinking of doing it again Because you're right, though you get with that person, that's when you take a self-inventory have to go exactly and I like what you said.
Speaker 3:I think it's not the easiest thing to find like a compatible person, true for you, but I do think like starting somewhere is is important.
Speaker 2:Yeah you're right, it's not easy to find someone who's compatible for you. But you're also right it's nice to start and you may go for a while and decide you don't need to go at this point. You may have other things that you're doing, which is fine also. Don't let me leave out pastors who do counseling. Some of them are wonderful too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're counselors too.
Speaker 2:They can be, but it's sort of like taking our emotional temperature, isn't it? Or seeing, I mean there's trauma all over the place in our world, in our country, and it's sort of like taking our emotional or our trauma temperature.
Speaker 1:What would you say? The checklist is that people could use for their own audit to see about their trauma. Like, say, I want to how far I'm traumatized? I don't think I am, but what would I? What would be the things I want to put on my checklist?
Speaker 2:a wonderful idea. How anxious are you and how often?
Speaker 1:all right, are you hyper vigilant? Anxiety um yes, anxiety um how, how?
Speaker 2:severe. How are you getting along with?
Speaker 1:Anxiety.
Speaker 2:Yes, anxiety, how severe. How are you getting along with other people? Are you irritable or distrustful? Do you find yourself having trouble sleeping?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a good one.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, make it hard to go to sleep and then you wake up and it won't let you go back to sleep. Won't stop talking to you. Make it hard to go to sleep and then you wake up and it won't let you go back to sleep. Won't stop talking to you. Um, do you tend to react in an anxious way to other things? Are you feeling depressed and hopeless and helpless? Oh, it's like overreacting, say to something exactly, it's a big tell do you have so little energy?
Speaker 1:Lack of energy.
Speaker 2:Trauma just saps a person. It's like taking the reverse of a shot, takes energy out of you. And if you're thinking kind of pessimistic and some people are pessimistic true enough, but with trauma a person doesn't have a lot of hope and you know you miss, miss that feeling hopeful is fun.
Speaker 1:You gotta have hope.
Speaker 3:Oh my god man just seeing all of the, all of these, I'm writing all of them down and I'm like, yeah, um, but I also don't know if I'm just supposing this, but I feel like trauma is like the word sounds.
Speaker 3:I mean, I feel like the word has such a range that like, yeah, with my therapist we've been doing inner child work and you know, I learned about environmental trauma, which is literally just because I'm a child, like observing my environment and deciding things and creating belief systems, so like nobody in particular did anything, but I absorbed it a particular way. And then I live out these programs in my life and as I'm older, I'm like, oh, where did that reaction come from? And oh, like, why am I scared in this way when I I've done this before or something you know, like this before, or something you know, like I'm just learning about all of this stuff? And, um, that trauma is, as a word is, I guess, stigmatized, like it's only reserved for veterans, but it's like I believe it's every single person yeah, I think you're right about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's very insightful. I think two things to remember about trauma is it doesn't mean you're crazy. Trauma is a normal reaction to an abnormal situation.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness, that's really good A normal reaction to an abnormal situation, Correct, perfect.
Speaker 3:Which I guess to like a two year old. A lot of things are abnormal. They haven't experienced them before. True, you know? Or maybe, like you know, I needed a hug at a time where nobody was around. Uh-huh, you know. So the situation was abnormal. Uh-huh, Would that be like? Interpreted as like an abnormal Sure A person can feel rejected.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then if? If you're a child, you wonder if there's something wrong with you that would cause people to reject you yep, yep, boy, oh boy, yeah so oh, this is a session so basically, I hope everyone's getting the same out of it that I am.
Speaker 1:Take your notes, write them down, so if you are ticking off any of these things. So now the next step is to try to think back. When did this all begin Like? I don't think I really felt this kind of trauma until the pandemic hit. That really started my trauma and it made me. Those were the symptoms started beginning right around then I was saying, oh no, this is not. This is all the news, news, media blowing it up, nothing big, but it turned into something big and that kind of traumatized me because my instinct was telling me that it was not going to go anywhere and my instinct was so wrong. And when your instinct's wrong, I think that kind of screws you up because it's your inner, inner self feeling things. It's usually right. My instinct's been very right on for me, but, um, it wasn't right. About that one I was totally wrong.
Speaker 2:I think you had a lot of company, and there are lots of people who felt that way. And then there was the shock, you know, when it turned out to be so big and so awful. Yeah, so that's kind of you to share that example.
Speaker 1:So what do you think, though? I mean? Now, we're dealing with a lot of stuff going on in the world societal influences, you know, regarding the politics and all that. I know you're writing that book now. So when you, when you find that you, you are suffering from these things, I guess the steps you would mention earlier, which is to you know, donate your time, your money on people that you think are on the right side of the truth, and then go into meetings with other people. And then, lastly, the last one was action to do things, to make actions, actions on yourself, actions in the world around you. So is that what we say? Is that not the cure, but at least a bit of good medicine?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it is good medicine. Being in community with others who understand, which you create with your podcast, is lovely. And maybe the most important thing of all is be kind to yourself, because what you said about your reaction to the pandemic and everything you should have seen it coming and not have thought it wouldn't be so big. You know, I felt kind towards you when you said that, because so many people went through that and felt the same way you did.
Speaker 2:I think it's so important that we're kind to ourselves, because we won't always do the right thing. We sometimes won't want to watch the news, which is not a good long-lasting way to solve things. If we numb out and we're numb and we don't watch the news, then we feel guilty. I wonder what happened that? You know I don't know about it. How can I help with it? So maybe the overarching umbrella is we really need to be kind to ourselves and around people who are kind to us. I think your podcast helps with that too, the ones I've seen. You're so kind to the people and then they're often kind to others. It's like a cascading waterfall where the kindness is going down, and that's so important right now.
Speaker 2:There isn't as much kindness as I wish there would be.
Speaker 1:I guess that's a huge one right there. Kindness, yeah, yeah, it is so big. Be kind to yourself for starters, because you can't really be kind to anyone if you're not kind to yourself.
Speaker 3:I mean if there's anything I've learned in my I guess in my relationship, it's that I do a lot of projecting and so if I'm not kind, that's probably showing me that I'm just not kind to me right now, beautifully said that's true yeah, and I'd rather not be unkind to others, you know, sure, but it that that's a very clear, like easy choice to look at, you know, to lead you back to what it actually is, and because you know when you like.
Speaker 1:For me, if I react a hyper, you know, overreact for example, because the world is bothering me and I'm not realizing that and and I overreact to something small, well then that's not being kind to myself. And then I, you know, and I pay a price for that. It does cost a price and it takes away that's the serenity that comes from. You know working, you know yourself as being kind. I mean that's so important. I just I don't think I could stress that enough. I mean it's.
Speaker 1:Nothing makes me more upset was when I don't feel like I was kind, like even if somebody does something wrong to me, like righteous indignation is the biggest danger for me, because I'll not. I'll do something, something that I feel bad about. I might tell that person the truth, or I used to feel proud of myself because I don't split hairs, but that's not always the kind thing to do. The kind thing to do is sometimes just let it go. People, you don't know what's going on in that person's life. They could be going through something, anything, or maybe went through something years ago.
Speaker 3:You're not that's why I mean it's likely they are it's very likely that they are. It's like, so clear you know, they look at it that's funny.
Speaker 1:It's very likely that they are so really cool, isn't?
Speaker 2:it wonderful again I commented earlier y'all have such great, such great sense of humor where we can look at things and laugh. I think that's just so wonderful because there's so much sad around us now to be able to laugh and even see wisdom in what we're laughing at and share it with each other. I think that's very special. I'd like to thank you for that today.
Speaker 1:Going forward. We have the basic idea of the checklist, of finding out if you're even suffering from trauma, and I would say that, generally speaking, probably you are. If you're even thinking about any of these things. That's the first step finding out if you are suffering from some form of trauma. You're on the spectrum, as Jack was saying. The word trauma covers a wide spectrum and if you're on that spectrum, you should be aware of it and that awareness is going to help you. And then, going forward, you get counseling. There were three things donate, meeting, community and actions. Those are the actual going forward things we should do if you think you are suffering from some form of trauma. Is that right?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes and community.
Speaker 1:And definitely getting in touch with a good psychologist, psychotherapist, social worker you know all those all the above of you mentioned and then find groups. There are groups out there you can meet with right.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Did I miss anything that we should tell people?
Speaker 2:that would be no, not a. Thing.
Speaker 1:Action items for them.
Speaker 2:Best. Of good fortune to them all.
Speaker 1:That's right. Best of good fortune to you all, and I think we could end on that note. Really Best of good fortune to you all. Thank you, dr Marty, for this amazing journey. Fortune to you all. Thank you, dr marty, for this amazing journey into understanding trauma and and the beginnings of learning how to handle it, deal with it first recognizing it and then handling it, and I cannot thank you enough. I'm really, really grateful that you came to us from out of the blue.
Speaker 1:Really, thank you to be on our show because we're going to see you more, as much as you were willing to do it.
Speaker 2:Wonderful. Thank you both so very much.
Speaker 1:Yes, and remember those immortal words that Marty said be kind or say it. You say it Be kind to yourself. Say it one more time Please be kind to yourself. Love it, love it. That's where we're going to end right now. Thank you so much, marty, and have a great day. And you guys listening you too, and remember to hit that like and subscribe, and we'll just keep getting that word out there and we're going to bring kindness back in vogue and love and happiness back in fashion.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you. I love that. Out of the Blue, the podcast Hosted by me, vernon West, co-hosted by Jacqueline West, edited by Joe Gallo Music and logo by Vernon West III. Have an Out of the Blue story of your own you'd like to share? Reach us at info at outoftheblue-thepodcastorg. Subscribe to Out of the Blue on Apple Podcasts, spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, and on our website, outoftheblue-thepodcastorg. You can also check us out on Patreon for exclusive content.