Out of the Blue - The Podcast: Finding the Way Forward
Out of the Blue-the Podcast features interviews with inspirational survivors of traumatic out of the blue events who have overcome unimaginable challenges, sharing their stories of resilience and triumph. By sharing these stories, "Out of the Blue" aims to create a community where others who have faced similar hardships can find solace and strength as together, we find the way forward.
Out of the Blue - The Podcast: Finding the Way Forward
Life After 9/11: A Firefighter's Journey
Joseph Bonanno was minutes away from death the morning of September 11, 2001. As a New York City firefighter and cookbook author, he had just wrapped up filming a segment for television at Ladder 3 in Manhattan when fate intervened—a car service arrived early to take him home. The firefighters he'd just been with immediately responded to the World Trade Center attacks. None survived.
That brush with mortality transformed Bonanno's life forever. A second-generation firefighter who followed his father's footsteps, Joe had already found unexpected success as an author after being discovered in a casual writing class. But 9/11 reshaped his understanding of purpose and pain in ways no one could anticipate. With heartbreaking candor, he recounts not only the horrors of Ground Zero but also the profound grief of losing his brother, also a firefighter, to suicide years later.
What emerges is a powerful testament to resilience and the healing power of service. Today, Bonanno uses his experiences to counsel fellow first responders dealing with PTSD and suicidal thoughts. His insights into recognizing warning signs—particularly when someone loses their sense of humor—provide vital guidance for supporting those in crisis.
"We're all going to leave this life sooner or later anyway," Bonanno reflects. "What's the rush?" This simple yet profound philosophy encapsulates his approach to both personal healing and helping others find their way through darkness.
American Firehouse Cuisine: https://americanfirehousecuisine.com
Firefighter Behavioral Health Alliance: https://www.ffbha.org
Out Of The Blue:
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Welcome back to Out of the Blue, the podcast, where real people share real stories of resilience, transformation and the human spirit rising through adversity. I'm your host, vernon West, joined by my daughter and co-host, jackie West, our social media and marketing manager, a professional musician and a Reiki healer. Our guest today has lived a life of service, courage and heart. Joseph Bonanno is a US Air Force veteran and a retired New York City firefighter who's served 21 years, including his work in the rescue and recovery efforts at Ground Zero after 9-11. But Joe's story doesn't stop there. He's also an academy-trained chef, a three-time cookbook author, a certified fitness trainer and nutritionist, and most recently certified by the IAFF and PTSD counseling, using his own experience to help fellow first responders heal wanders heal. When he's not speaking, cooking or training, you can find him volunteering at a children's burn camp, giving back in yet another powerful way. With a career that bridges bravery, creativity and compassion, joseph Bonanno is living proof that service to others takes many forms. Joe, welcome to Out of the Blue, the podcast.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you, Vernon, and thank you Jackie too.
Speaker 2:It's quite an introduction.
Speaker 3:It's quite an introduction. A lot to live up to.
Speaker 2:You earned it.
Speaker 3:That's all your stuff you earned that, thank you, thank you, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:And that's a big deal. You know that is a big deal, all those things. So where can we start? Usually, where we start is the beginning. When was 34 year, veteran of the New York city fire department and worked in?
Speaker 3:the South Bronx and engine 88 through the what they call in New York city. The war years, through the sixties and seventies, when the Bronx was burning and New York was, you know, really had one of the highest response rates in the entire world at that time.
Speaker 2:So he didn't.
Speaker 3:I wouldn't say he forced me to the fire service, but and I was. You know, there's two types of teenagers or kids when they're growing up One they want to emulate their father and one they want to. I'm not going to do what you did. I'm better than you. I'm going to be a.
Speaker 3:Well, I was the arrogant pain in the neck teenager who didn't want to do what he did for a living and I remember at the time he said to me all right, listen, you don't have to take the job, but don't be stupid. At least take the test. And when they call you, if you don't want to take it, you don't take it. So I was just getting out of college at the time and I was going on a few job interviews and the job interviews I was going on I just I know it just didn't seem appealing to me and I do.
Speaker 3:One thing I do remember is my father, growing up, would take me to these firehouse parties, christmas party, summer parties at the park or something like that. And I just remember all the firefighters were all ecstatically happy individuals, you know, and apparently loved their jobs, and the business jobs that I was going to look at didn't appear that the people really liked their jobs, so I took the test. I scored pretty well. I think at the time I took it, 40,000 people took the test for the New York City Fire Department, so my list number was 1,124.
Speaker 2:That's pretty up there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was up there. Yeah. So a fellow that I met at the training academy when we were training for the test. He wanted to be a firefighter since he was a little kid and he knew everything about it and although my father was in the fire department he never really spoke about it at home. I didn't even know that they ate meals. You know, as far as I knew he went to work. He came home smelling like smoke but he really didn't bring the job home with him. He never really talked about it. The danger, the food, the fun, nothing. He really kept it to himself. He would talk about different firefighters he worked with and stuff, normal gossip, but really didn't talk about the job that much. I guess he wanted me to find out on my own. But the guys that I was training with were all just like my father's friends funny, comical, great guys, real salted air type. So I says you know what my list number? Come on, I'm going to take it. So I took it.
Speaker 3:I got assigned to Engine 319, which is a small firehouse in Queens. Great again, great individuals to work with. But these are firefights that had done their time already and they were in like a slower type of firehouse and, of course, when you're young you want to be in a busy place and so I transferred to Ladder 129. And no disrespect for those guys. They did their time in the Bronx and Brooklyn and busy firehouses and now they just wanted to stay in a nicer area and maybe not as many responses. Leave that for the younger generation, which I was. So I transferred to Ladder 129. Was one of the best decisions I ever made. Great guys, we had all new guys there and it just double house. You have twice as many characters and just everything. The meals were bigger, just everything about it. How many people in that house On shift? There's 11.
Speaker 2:So that's considered a big amount of people to cook for.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh yeah, definitely. And you know I'll be the first one to admit and I'm sure if any firefighters that I work with are listening I wasn't a notoriously wonderful firehouse chef or anything like that. It's just that when I got on I realized the importance of keeping in good physical condition. I went and got certified as a fitness trainer and I would see guys with a 50 inch waist who had, you know, 45 years. You know, 45 years old, 50 years old. You know the job is a physical job. So I always wanted to stay in in great shape and I said, boy, if I keep eating meals like this, you know they used to say you're going to be a big man on this job someday. Cause I had a big appetite and I said, well, not if I eat soundly. You know, grilled chicken, brown rice, nothing more. But you know the old school firefighters are more like meat and potatoes type. Sure, and you don't have to exercise because you get enough work running into burning buildings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you run up the slatter man, that's exercise, right.
Speaker 3:It is, but you're not doing it often enough and with enough regularity to constitute fitness. You know what I mean. So I jumped in once in a while and prepared a few meals, trying to make them a little healthy. I mean, perfect example is and I use this story all the time is I was making one of the firefighters excellent cooks, by the way, they were that I have to give them that. But you know they were making mashed potatoes and the one guy is peeling sticks of butter like they were bananas and throwing the sticks of butter and you know, four sticks of butter for mashed potatoes for six or eight people.
Speaker 2:I bet you they were awesome. Mashed potatoes Well they were.
Speaker 3:But you know I learned different techniques taking cooking classes, how you could make like roasted garlic which isn't going to add any fat or cholesterol to the meal. So I was able to prepare a few meals here and there that were healthy and delicious. And again, I won't. I'll be the first one to say I didn't have any kind of reputation at it. But in 1984, a New York firefighter assigned to Engine 58, john Sinino, passed away. God rest his soul.
Speaker 3:Wonderful firefighter wrote the firefighter's cookbook and he did a. It was a small paperback, no pictures paperback thing and he did it kind of like just on a lock because he was a halfway decent firehouse cook. And they said hey, john, throw a few recipes together, we'll put some of our recipes together. So he did it unbeknownst to him. He the the first uh printing was only 5 000 copies because he figured, yeah, it's just going to be fireman buying it and a few other people.
Speaker 3:Well anyway, phil Donahue, I don't know if you remember him. I do, of course. Yeah, he had a talk show. He was in Chicago, he was moving his studio to New York. He asked his producers how can I warm up to the New York audience? Give me some ideas. So his producers said you know what? We always give me some ideas. So his producer said you know what? We always see firefighters in the store making food and new york new yorkers love their firefighters love them. And he says well, a new york fireman, jackie, just wrote a little cookbook, maybe we'll have him on as a guest. So he had him on as a guest his first episode in new york. So john was not a tv personality, neither am I, and he was so busy talking to phil donahue about the book that the chicken started burning that he was making on stage and it made for a great comedy thing. Like phil donahue interrupted me, he goes you know I love hearing stories about the fire service, but you know you may have to call the other speaking of fire. Speaking of fire, your chicken cutlets are burning. So he had to come here russian on. So the term now is it went viral. That wasn't the terminology then. But because of that episode his cookbook went on the New York Times bestseller list Cool, and it was there for nine weeks in a row.
Speaker 3:Wow, Fast forward for me. I had no intentions of writing a cookbook, but the new school in Manhattan was offering a course called how to write a cookbook and get it published. So I says you know what I'm in between shifts. It was like a Friday night and Saturday night. I didn't want to drive all the way back out to Long Island. I said you know what, take a course from Manhattan, kill my day tour and then I'll go back and work that night, never expecting. So I take the class.
Speaker 3:The teacher says you know, we want to go around the room and everybody and it was like 75 people, class was sold out, 75 people. And because it's new york, everybody was trying to get noticed, except me, right, like all the other people were there with stacks of recipes. Oh my god, look at the people I'm surrounded by. I don't even have an idea or a recipe with me. So the teacher goes around the room and says you know, uh, just put it out there, your idea for a cookbook. So I said Joe, quick, think quick. So they're getting to me one by one.
Speaker 3:People are name dropping. Because it's New York, you know all chef at the culinary Institute. I was Robert De Niro's personal chef, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff. And I'm like, oh my God, all right. So they get to me. I had just gotten certified as a fitness trainer. So I had that in my resume. So I said, listen, I was a New York City firefighter at that time for 15 years, right, and I said I just got certified as a fitness trainer and a nutritionist. And firefighters are known for good cooks but a lot of times they health-related issues to their cooking. And there was a successful book in 84. So I said if I was going to do a cookbook, it would be a healthy cookbook.
Speaker 3:Well, the teacher says you know what I'd mentioned, that this afternoon we have an editor coming in. I'm like, oh my God, now he puts me on the spot. So in the afternoon an editor came in and she was like a drill sergeant. She was like, all right, you got to get a query letter together. To put a thing, you have to have 10 tested recipes. I'm like I don't even have one tested recipe yet.
Speaker 3:So the teacher she says I'm opening the floor for five minutes, everybody's hand shot up but mine and again their name dropping. Now she's an editor, so she can actually get their book published. And they're saying, oh, you know, I was a chef in Sweden. She goes listen, it was five Swedish cookbooks last year, 10 the year before next, and she was dismissing people like that and I'm like I'm not even, I'm sinking in my seat, I'm not even going to mention my idea. So then the teacher, the class is ending. He says thank you everybody for coming.
Speaker 3:For instance, joe, would you stand up and say your idea Like, oh my God. So I stand up and I go listen, I'm a New York city firefighter. There was a successful book. It was on the bestseller list, but I just got certified as a fitness trainer. I would do a healthy book. She goes that is a fabulous idea, would you? Would you stay after class and talk to me? Whoa, 75 people in the class are ready to kill me because they went to get noticed and I didn't want to get noticed. And I'll never forget the conversation because she says hi, my name's Harriet Bell. I'm the head editor for Hearst Publishing in New York. Do you have an agent? I said Harriet agent, I'm a firefighter. You know it's hoses, axes, red trucks. I don't have an agent.
Speaker 2:She goes well that, that's how it works.
Speaker 3:We'll get you an agent monday morning and she'll walk you through the process, so it was almost like it was a done deal that's a that's right out of the blue and it's beautiful out of the. Yeah, it was out of the blue. Good, yes, yeah those are.
Speaker 2:Oh, there were plenty. There were plenty of good out of the blues. Yeah, this was one of them.
Speaker 3:This was one of them and I'll never forget going back to the firehouse to work my night tour saying God, you're not going to believe it. I was in this, get out of here. You can't even make a fried egg. You're going to be writing a national cookbook. You know, of course, firefighter mentality and humor. You know they started unloading on me.
Speaker 2:Of course.
Speaker 3:I go, you've got to be kidding. I. I talked to the agent Monday morning. She said get me 10 recipes and write the introduction to see if you can write. And then I put it and she says we don't want it to be a New York cookbook, we want it to be national. So I said, all right, I'll put an ad in Firehouse Magazine, which is still out there and asking for recipes, and I'll send a free book. So I got like about 120 to 130 recipes and I did have about I want to say, 20 or 30 of my own staple things that I would make regularly, that I knew I tested and were okay and stuff like that. So I put it together and next thing, you know, they offered me a contract to write a book. Wow.
Speaker 3:And to this day it's still unbelievable. Now, if you have a major publisher behind you, it's in their best interest to get you on all the shows. So I was on good morning america, regis philbin, uh, the today show, martha stewart, I mean you name it. Then it was in new york times daily news and then it starts picking up momentum and I I mean, I never quite made it to the bestseller list, like john cenino, but it did. It did really well. I donated it to the bestseller list, like John Cernino, but it did, it did really well. I donated money to the Byrne Center, new York Firefighters, byrne Center, of course.
Speaker 2:Wonderful.
Speaker 3:And then, yeah, then it was like a crazy celebrity ride. Like every five minutes I was getting a call about. You know, would you? New York Times Gourmet Magazine? They made me the Cosmopolitan Bachelor of the Month.
Speaker 2:Cosmo Bachelor of the month. Yeah, what month was that? Do you remember what year that was?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was 95 or 96. And actually it was on the same page as Denzel Washington. Oh, that's fabulous, which is pretty cool. And that was another crazy story, because I got you know. They said don't use your home address because girls will go to your house, oh boy, to use a po box. So, being the cheap fireman that I am, I got the smallest little box that was the size of a shoe box, po box maybe it was eight dollars.
Speaker 3:I had one like that. Yeah, it was like eight bucks, eight bucks for the month, exactly way promoting the book. And I come back and the post office guy said are you crazy? I go, why he goes. You rented a shoe box, I he goes. Wait till you see. He brings out this giant box of mail packed with perfume-smelling letters from all over the world.
Speaker 2:That's so cool.
Speaker 3:And it became so funny because I brought it to the. They go oh, now you're the bachelor of the month. Oh, my God, I can't believe this. So I brought the box into the firehouse and it was funny because all the married guys I guess their lives are boring and this was exciting for them. We're going to be your mail sorters. So they set the table up and they would do it like mail sorters. They would go okay, you know, women under 20, women over 30, women in prison, women overseas, and they were sorting the mail like that.
Speaker 3:Anyway, the only reason I did it is the publisher said to me joe, you might not want to do this, but it's good publicity for the book. So anyway, the book did well. That's great. Um, uh, it did well. They wanted to do a second one, which I did. A second one called the firehouse grilling cookbook. So now it's getting to be the 90s and we're getting up to 2000 and I'll bring you up to date with my 9-11 story which ties into the cookbook the.
Speaker 3:Um, the summer of I was doing a lot of promotional stuff and the summer of I just put my retirement papers in. And the summer of 2001, the book publishing people called me and said ranzoni pasta, which is a big pasta in New York, they have any New York firefighters cook off and they want you to be a judge. And then we want you to go on TV and promote it. I said okay. So I went on a few TV shows promoting this cooking contest that I was going to judge and then they said all right, we got one. Last thing we want you to do is WB11 in New York wants you to do a live TV segment and we want you to do it at your firehouse. My final firehouse was Ladder 152 in Queens, engine 299, ladder 152. I said okay.
Speaker 3:So they go okay, joe, it's all set. September 8th 2001 at Ladder 152. Okay, it's all set. We'll send a car service to pick you up. Okay, great, you know, early in the morning and we'll start at like 5 36 in the morning and we'll do a couple of live segments. Okay, no problem.
Speaker 3:About a week before I get a call from the tv producers and they go uh, we had to change some stuff. We, the, we don't really get a good signal from queens and the, the production crew doesn't want to go all the way out to queens with the traffic. They want to do it from manhattan. So we lined you up for doing this segment at Ladder 3 on 13th and Broadway, which I'm like yeah, okay, I knew some people that worked there. My brother actually knew some people that worked there, no problem. So I said, okay, I'll do it. The only thing is we can't do it September 8th. Are you available? I get choked up, are you not knowing? I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, who, who would ever you know? I said, sure, no problem, okay, it's all set. Ladder three, 13th and Broadway. You'll be there about five, 36 in the morning. So I get there, I meet some of the firefighters. It's the morning of September 11th, beautiful day.
Speaker 3:As you know beautiful weather. Meet all the firefighters. Two of them actually work with my brother, michael, and a very famous firefighter, captain Patty Brown, legendary New York City firefighter. He was the captain there on duty, coming into work and the host of the show shows up and so it's in the studio. But they said we're going to cut live to ladder three on 13th and Broadway, where our host, larry Hoff from WB11 is with Joe Bonanno doing this live cooking segment and we're promoting Ranzoni pasta because they're donating $10,000. So we're doing children's fun.
Speaker 3:So we did one at 645, one at 710. And I think the last one was at like 81515. And the first plane hit at 8.46. The thing ends at like 8.28, something like that. And then you know, you're just kind of hanging around went in the kitchen, had a cup of coffee.
Speaker 3:I came out to the apron. The Ranzoni representative says to me Joe, the car service people are in the Bronx, they're not going to get here for an hour. So the other firefighters are like, hey, great, come, not going to get here for an hour. So the other firefighters were like, hey, great, come back in the kitchen with us. Finish cooking, we'll finish breakfast, and blah, blah. And so at the last minute. I swear to God it was 840. It's that close.
Speaker 3:I'm standing on the apron. She gets a phone call, the Marzoni representative. She goes Joe, good news, there's a guy right around the block from the car service. He can come and get you now, if you want, and take you home. Okay, I was like you know what. And the other firefighter was like no, take the other one, wait, wait, wait, hang out with us. I says yeah, you know what. I don't want to hold a guy up, and you know, because, had I stayed, I surely would have went with them. There's no doubt about it. The car pulls up. I said, hey, fellas, take it easy, have a safe tour. Shook Patty Brown's hand. They finished up whatever we made, finish it off for breakfast, got in the car and we pull out. By the time I got to 6th Avenue, ladder three was right behind me. I made a right to the Queens Midtown tunnel. They made a left to the World Trade Center.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:The plane literally had to fly right over where we were the car. I looked at the clock it was 846. I didn't see it, but literally that was the timing. So now I'm hearing fire truck, but it's Manhattan. You expect to hear that it's cause fire and they're racing by me and I'm like man, something must be big going on. I asked the car service guy, put the radio on and it was just happening. They just said we interrupt this program. Apparently, a small plane lost control and went into the World Trade Center. They didn't know much then, that's right.
Speaker 3:No, they just were getting intermittent reports of it and nobody had a sure answer. So then I'm hearing on the radio. Then the lady says I don't know if it was a small plane, but the there's a imprint in the side of the building and smoke coming out and it looks like it's like six or seven floors and I'm like small plane six or seven floors no way, that's right you know, and plus it was a beautiful day for a pilot to lose, you know it wasn't cloudy or overcast day that I remember.
Speaker 3:Yeah, how could? A pilot loses bearings and and run into the world trade? So I but you know you're kind of dismissing it. So we go into the queensman town tunnel, lose the radio signal when I come out. We go through the toll. I look to the right. I see the second plane hit you.
Speaker 2:You saw it hit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh geez. And then the radio reports now are coming in fast and furious and they're like a second plane has hit. Obviously this is not an accident, this is intentional. I think we're under attack. All these radio things are coming in like crazy. So I asked the guy turn the car around, get me back in. He turned the car around, but they. So I asked the guy turn the car around, get me back in. He turned the car around, but they said policeman, fireman, nobody's getting through the tunnel, tunnels are closed. Because they were worried that they bombed the tunnels or they weren't letting anybody through the tunnel. So I couldn't get back in. So I drove back, went back out to Long Island where I was staying, and when I walked in the door the first tower was collapsing. And I go, I'm watching thousands and thousands of people and firemen get killed right before my eyes. I can't believe this.
Speaker 3:My brother, michael, happened to be home. He was a New York City firefighter also. He was discharged with a back injury and he was in New York with his wife and daughter visiting and he called me right away and I said Michael, I can't watch this on TV anymore, I have to go in, you know. And he said do you have any extra gear? And I go yeah, I do. And he still had his helmet.
Speaker 3:So I said take your gear. I got coat, boots, whatever else we need, and we jumped on a train. My sister dropped us off at the train station and we went into Manhattan. We got out at Penn Station I mean people were, you know, first responders were pouring in from all over the beginning, all over the city first, then the state, then regionally and then nationally. Some troopers from Albany in a Humvee saw us in our gear and waved us over, took us in this Humvee, got us as close as we could get and then we walked the rest of the way. And I'll tell you when I turned the corner and saw that I started bawling my eyes out.
Speaker 2:Oh my.
Speaker 3:God, I mean just to think that. You know, I'm looking at thousands of bodies right now that are in there and the wave, massive wave of grief that's going to come from this, myself included and not even knowing people that I work with yet, but I just knew that the level of disaster is just. I mean, it did that for the whole world. So we went in and did our stuff, you know, and it was so difficult for the firefighters because our job is to save people and there was nobody to save. If you were inside the collapse zone, you were gone. If you were outside, you know there are dust and a few minor injuries. You know, even the medical teams there were having a really hard time because, again, they're their trauma teams like mass units. They were there to save people and put people back together, but it was very not a lot of minor injuries, it was either gone or outside the drop, the drop zone.
Speaker 3:So the aftermath funerals, all of that, it just was a lot to take in.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, that's so traumatizing. Oh my God.
Speaker 3:Ptsd off the hook really, yeah, on a grand scale nationally. But I have to say the outpouring of love, concern, care and support from New Yorkers originally, and then eventually the whole world was so deeply touching Like we went back to ladder five I had worked there for a brief period to clean up, cause it was pretty close take showers and whatnot, before we went back down to ground zero maybe catch them asleep and um, I mean, the guy just pulled the curtain back and there was just like trays of lasagna and garlic bread and people. They couldn't do enough for us. You know, the most touching thing, I think, is, you know, up on the bulletin board there were pictures. I guess they faxed them or they, however they did it at that time, was faxing.
Speaker 2:It wasn't texting or anything like that it was fact of firefighters from.
Speaker 3:Antarctica to Poland, you know, with their hats, helmets off, saluting us.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, you know, picture after picture, I mean it was touching and I have to say it did help a little bit to mitigate some of the grief that went on there. But Ladder 12, I mean Ladder 3, where I was that morning, me and my brother actually found we were one of the first ones to find the rig that rig, ladder 3, is in the lobby of the World Trade Center, world Trade Center Museum right now, and I found I said what happened to all the guys I was with that morning and he goes, joe, none of them made it. Captain Brown and all those firemen were on the 44th floor. In the days that followed we found out that out of the 12 that were lost that morning that were all on TV with me waving to their children live, out of the 12 that were lost that morning that were all on TV with me waving to their children live, out of the 12, they only found two of the other 10 bodies were gone in dust in the wind.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that was a lot to a lot to process and that was a negative out of the blue. But Ronzoni was great. They upped their donation to thirty thousand dollars to the widow and children's fund. I went on to raise like seventy five thousand dollars more with book sales and stuff to um and I donated it directly to some of the families of latter three where I was that morning and I actually made a tape of our morning appearance because it was live and it was the last live video of those firefighters alive and delivered it to all the families that they can have some kind of a remembrance of where they were and what they were doing and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Wow, I got something I wanted to say, but I'm thinking what I have to say is like fluff compared to what you're saying. You know, and I was going to say that, my experience with 9-11, I was on a plane at logan airport wow, at 8 am I got on a flight that was headed to chicago. Wow, and I'm. And I got. I was good. I was there to do work for the christian science monitor which I worked for at the time, and I'm sitting and I got bumped to the first class because you could do that with a lot of frequent flyer miles. And I'm sitting in first class and I've got my little earbud in. I'm listening to the radio, like when they told us to turn off the radios. You know, I sat there with my radio, I was cheating like I did a lot, and I was listening to Howard Stern and he announces oh my God, a plane just hit the World Trade Center Right, and I went, whoa. I got up out of my seat and walked over to the pilot and said hey, sir, I just heard on Howard Stern. I know I'm not supposed to be listening, but a plane hit the World Trade Center, he goes really. He said go sit down, sir, thank you. And this was an American Airlines flight that I was on. And then I come back and I sat down and then he says the second one hit. And I went to the back and I sat down, and then he says the second one hits. And I went to the cockpit and I said and he says we know, thank you very much, please sit down. And they're all getting all freaked out. And in about 20 minutes they said everybody has to deplane. There's been a national grounding and on the way out I saw the stewardesses and the pilots all hugging each other because they obviously knew the crew, but that it hit.
Speaker 2:There was one American Airlines flight that hit. As a matter of fact, there was a flight that I took the week before and I took every other week to go to LA. It was a Los Angeles flight. It left at 730. And I knew that crew and I was shocked, I was grief stricken.
Speaker 2:And then I went outside the gate and I sat down and I said I got to call my office and tell them I'm going to catch the next flight or something. This is what I think and I'm crazy. I called the office and they're saying oh my God, we didn't know what flight you were on. You're alive, oh God. I thought we might've been on the LA flight, we didn't know. No, I'm here, just get out of there. And I said why? I said you're not gonna go anywhere, get home.
Speaker 2:And I got out of the airport and that right after I left they closed the airport. They closed logan, yeah. But I made it home and boy oh boy that and I thought it was and I had trauma from that. I can't even imagine the kind of trauma that you had to endure because of this, so close to this horrible event. I mean, I'm amazed and actually quite moved to hear you talk about the outpouring of love, because it makes me realize too that in adversity and in horrible things, oftentimes it brings out the best in people you know, well you know, for the first responders and that's why they call it post traumatic stress disorder, because at the moment I and my brother had to switch gears into rescue mode.
Speaker 3:We can't deal with body parts and things that we saw. You know, every once in a while you get like I did a lot of construction work in my life and you'd look around and I remember saying to my brother, michael 110 stories Do you see a toilet bowl anywhere? Like there wasn't a toilet bowl to be seen, there wasn't a conference table, everything was pulverized into small little you know. I mean toilet bowls must've been in that building.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:And to not see a toilet bowl or a seat or a van, a sink, or you know. I was walking through the dust, I tripped and I reached into the dust. I tripped on something. I picked it up. It was a little 10 pound chrome dumbbell and it must've been, it must've been a gym on one of the upper upper floors, right. And now it's at the ground.
Speaker 3:It's at ground level, oh boy, you know and then we heard later on we heard all the I guess you want to call it technical data about it. That it you know it came down in 11 seconds. The people on the floor didn't even. I mean, if there's any grace in it is that it was so instantaneous that hopefully they didn't feel too much.
Speaker 2:It was lights out, not set.
Speaker 3:Lights out and, yeah, there was no like, not even time for an oh crap. You know, like, just like, what's going on and you know, and there was all of that kind of thinking Post, like I said, when you get home or you give a chance to breathe, and even the grief thing, and that's why it starts to hit you later, Just like in wartime. I mean, if your friend gets killed right next to you, you can't cry and say, oh my God, they're still shooting at you. You have to survive it. Right, it's later. It's later when you are back to civilian life or back to you know, and that's the part that you know. That's why I wanted to get certified in it. So we can fast forward the story a little bit. Yes, Brother, I know we were talking about it the other day.
Speaker 2:Yes, your brother.
Speaker 3:Yep and a very handsome man, by the way. Terrible shame, yeah. And he in 2012, he committed suicide, took his life Too much for him, that stuff. Well again everybody says you know, was it nine 11? Was it family issues? Was it financially? You know yes and no. There's, and you know, people who don't have a background in behavioral health or anything. So, usually it's. The first question is why? Well, they said, well, we just got divorced. Well, if that was true, then everybody that gets divorced would take their life.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Or he just got fired. Well then, everybody gets fired. Take their life. It isn't. And it's also how you process it. And that doesn't mean and that's the part that for the survivors that's really hard you say, well, was I stronger than him? I don't want to hear that I was stronger than him, that I didn't feel bad about 9-11 or family issues and stuff. It's really how you process and that's where the people who've made it more firefighters and military are dying from line of duty suicide than are dying from line of duty. So at these national conventions, shouldn't that be the emphasis to stop loss of life. At a national seminar, you know five firefighters getting together. What course are you going to take today? Oh, there's forcible entry. There's ventilation, entry and search. There's roof rope rescues. Which one are you taking? Oh, I'm going to take the suicide prevention. They're like what?
Speaker 1:Suicide prevention.
Speaker 3:So you know, I gave Vernon. I gave it a lot of thought the other day like how can we appeal to the powers that be to give these seminars? Well, when you take a forcible entry class, that doesn't mean every time you go out you're going to have to access a forcible entry, knowledge that you've learned. But you have it in your bank that when you get to a situation when you have to take a door okay, I took this class, I know how to do it. So the firefighters and the powers that be have to put that in their mind. You're not taking the suicide course because when you go back to the fire, it's just all right, stand up. Anybody thinking about taking suicide? No, you have that knowledge and you have it in the bank because you want to rescue not only civilians, but you want to rescue firefighters. But if more of them are taking their life, that's where we have to put the emphasis on rescue. So maybe the 25 year old firefighter that just got on isn't thinking about it.
Speaker 2:Right, right, they're 25. They live forever. They're immortal. They don't think in their church.
Speaker 3:Well, it does happen younger, but it does happen. More of it is an old. Statistically it's an older person who's experienced life a little like you said, out of the blue, right Out of the blue a divorce, a financial mishap. You screw up at work and you're embarrassed. Now add all of these things up. So now the firefighter who's concerned with his brother firefighters says now he has this tool in his bag. He says I took this suicide course so and so is starting to show signs that life's coming apart for him. I know, now I have the tool in my, in my hard drive. He says let's sit down and talk about this a little bit.
Speaker 2:What are some of the things you could say that we can. We'll obviously share with people as they're watching this, that they can use to notice these. What signs, what kind of signs, could you say you know?
Speaker 3:everybody asks that, but that's not a universal answer. Like you said, the voice isn't a universal sign. There are some things that people have said like if they start giving away all their stuff my personal experience and a lot of reading about it I think I sold you this one the other day One of the survival techniques of people that work in military stuff is they call it galozuma, meaning you're on your way to the gallows and you crack a joke just to get over know it well, yeah so.
Speaker 3:So my one of my, I remember distinctly, remember saying to my brother, three months before it happened, when did you lose your firehouse sense of humor? And then they, when they start hitting you with, I call it the year butts. Yeah, but you don't understand. I'm getting divorced and you know my father doesn't talk to me anymore. We got a big argument Okay, yeah, but put it in the proper perspective.
Speaker 3:Is it really worth? And at that moment that's what's terrible and this is how I've kind of looked at it. It can't be on your option list because you're getting divorced. All right, is it a wonderful thing? Of course not. But sometime in the future you could meet somebody else, or maybe you go off on your own single and live a great life and take vacations and pursue your hobbies, crafts and interests.
Speaker 3:But it's when they start bringing it up as an option to either financial, whatever you're out of the blue. Terrible thing is is it really worth taking your life over? But if 10 other things went wrong in your life and then your transmission goes and they've already had this in their mind as an option, you say, well, he took his light, well, his transmission went and the next day blew his brains out. Well, because his transmission went. No, all the other stuff added up cumulative and listen, by the time you're 50, you definitely have had some financial stress.
Speaker 3:You might have had relationship stress, whether it's siblings, family, spouse, um, maybe some medical issues too. I mean, everybody by the time you're 50 has had some absolutely out of the blue, unexpected thing happen. But and and it's how you're processing it, but it's, I believe, my opinion and a little bit of training is that let's say there's 20 different things that can happen from this out of the blue thing financial stress, you can make more money, you could win a lottery, you could. It's when they say, if none of that works out, you know, maybe win a lottery you could. It's when they say, if none of that works out, you know, maybe this life isn't even worth it.
Speaker 2:Were you going to offer that course yourself? Did you have an idea to offer? No, I'd like to.
Speaker 3:I would like to do that, and I'm working with a great organization called ffbhaorg, jeff Dill. He's a retired Palatine captain and he, I want to say he, saved my life, because it's not that I was contemplating taking my life, but I was at such a low after my brother passed away I didn't think I was going to survive another day, just from grief. I believe you and he you know he got ahold of me.
Speaker 3:I went up to Chicago to be with you know, meet with him and talk to him and stuff like that, and I mean he really put me on the right track to dealing with the grief and stuff like that. So I know what you're asking is you're in a firehouse or police station or wherever you are military and you're sitting with a bunch. You can kind of see when somebody's starting to separate themselves a little bit, acting a little off, okay, and as a confidant or best. I might not be his best friend, but he definitely has somebody that he confides in. I might not be his best friend, but he definitely has somebody that he confides in Spouse, mother, uncle, friend, say listen who do you have in your?
Speaker 3:life that you can trust, that you can share stuff with. You know, oh well, yeah, everybody sucks. Everybody at work sucks, everybody, you know. But my uncle is one of my. You call the uncle and you say listen, I work with him, I'm a little concerned, and I'm concerned because I've lost somebody like this. Now, ask him up front. Listen, I know things aren't going great in your life. You know they could get better, they could get worse, I don't know, but we have to keep this in perspective. Have you considered, considered as an option like this? Life isn't worth it. I I wouldn't even say have you considered suicide, because that it really puts people off right you know like oh no, I wouldn't do
Speaker 3:that oh, I would never. What are you kidding me? I would never do that. I got a daughter, I got my family. Uh, right, so I I say a more gentle approach would be to say are you starting to think that this life really isn't worth it? It opens the door a little bit more gently and he goes. You better do. After my divorce, after I lost my house, the chief came down on me because of something I did at work. And then they're talking about firing me.
Speaker 1:I have a question Do you think that it would be helpful to recommend having sort of like a therapist assigned to each person?
Speaker 2:as the firehouse. Yeah, each person in the firehouse.
Speaker 1:Well to me it sounds like there are a lot of emotions that you have to put aside to go through these intense experiences, and emotions don't just go away.
Speaker 3:I know what you're saying, but as soon as you mentioned the word therapist- and being in that environment, with the macho level being exponential.
Speaker 3:so put it to them, because my brother, believe me, he was a loving, caring individual. He had a daughter and a wife. But you know if and me, and if he would have said well, and if I would have said to him, do you know what this is going to do to you? Plus, you put the guilt trip on them, their fellow firefighters. It's kind of hard for them to say I don't care about them. At the moment it happens, I do believe that that they don't. They just shut, everybody shuts out, and I have accomplished this mission and I'm out of this life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because they're just so full of pressure. Everything is just pressure, pressure, pressure, building, building, building.
Speaker 3:And this is the relief.
Speaker 2:You know, that's why I thought, when you said the thing about humor, I think that's a pretty solid thing to look for people lacking humor, because that pressure building that Jackie just said, that's what humor does. It kind of it's a steam valve, lets out a little pressure.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean Right, and that's if you want to call it a sign. That's one of the signs. I see that they don't. I think it's a pretty clear one.
Speaker 2:You know someone's getting no humor at all, especially when you're working as a first responder. You know that gallows humor that we talked about. It's necessary in that environment, because how do you deal with it day after day? I mean, I've myself spent a little time in law enforcement as a PI and I also knew a lot of firemen and we'd hang out at a bar after the show, after the day and everybody's commiserating and the things they have to deal with every day and they're joking about horrible things because they have to. You've got to let it out.
Speaker 3:Right For civilians. The best example I could say as an example is remember the TV show MASH yes With Alan Alda. Oh yeah, loved it, and Radar and all that. Well, here they are cutting open 18-year-old kids every day. Yeah, and they had the best sense of humor going, but eventually in that show Hawkeye, which is Alan Alda he ended up having a nervous breakdown at the end.
Speaker 3:I remember Because that humor can only last so long. It's only so, but it does get you through the moment. But that's why you said you have to dig a little bit deeper and say listen, I get you laughing this off. Your financial issues, divorce, whatever it is, I get you laughing this off.
Speaker 2:But on a deeper level, I'm sure this is starting to get to you you know what I think when I, when I hear you talking, what just occurs to me is that you had whatever your predisposition to do it, you were wired to figure out a way forward. Like when things were bad, you thought like you want to pay it forward. Even now, that's what your life is. You like to pay it forward you. That's why you did the, that burn camp for kids, right, and you do ptsd counseling for first responders and people like that, right? Yes, so I mean that is a way to pay it forward. So I think that's something. Maybe that's a great thing to show people. I think we're showing them now throughout the blue of this podcast. It's about showing how you, joseph Bonanno, was able to turn what was unbelievable, horrible trauma, ptsd off the hook. I mean off off the shot. Something beyond. I mean I know my dad had ptsd and he had seen he was on grave registration in korea, so he was doing the same thing like mash with bodies all day long. He came home, he was in such, he had such ptsd. It was ridiculous, but that's not even as bad as your situation. That happened in one day oh my God, overwhelming.
Speaker 2:And that's what I think it is with all first responders. They have to face this stuff and it's just boom, there it is. And when you have to deal with that on a daily basis, I mean you need to have an escape plan. You kind of do, and you need to. If they're not wired to think of four in terms of you like you to find a way to pay it forward that I can do something with this negative stuff that helps people. Now why do you think you did that? I like I'm curious. I think anybody that understands the out of the blue idea is curious. How will you?
Speaker 3:tell. I would love, I would love to say to you, I would love to say to you that I'm a warrior personality and I'll take it and I could figure it out, um, but listen, it's true though you are, I've had my, I've had my terribly weak moments, believe me.
Speaker 3:Um, in 1980, 1981, uh, I was only on the fire department a year and a half. My mother fell asleep with a cigarette. She had an alcohol problem. She was burned 55% of her body. They helicoptered her to Nassau County Burn Center. She lived for a week and she died from burns.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh.
Speaker 3:So I had that on my thing and I'll be perfectly honest with you, I don't mind sharing this with your audience. At that time, believe me, it was on my option list. I'm like, how am I gonna? I'm a firefighter, I was at work and my mother gets caught in a fire and and and winds up dying a week later. And now, now I got to continue my rest of my that's how I start my career running into burning buildings to save people. And I couldn't even save my own mother.
Speaker 3:I was starting to think of it that way and then I said to myself you know what? I don't know, maybe because I'm a planner. I was like you know what? I don't want to leave this earth and not have other people make out from it. So I go I'm in the perfect job for suicide, because I could just stay longer than I should in a building and get killed. And I go look, I'll look like a hero died in the line of duty. Nobody will ever know that it was suicide and my family is going to get my pension, my everything else. And, believe me, that's how I kind of know, because it was option 20.
Speaker 3:But I had just bought a house right just before my mother died we had some issues with my father and stuff and my brother, michael, and my sister actually moved away from my father. He remarried. They didn't get along with the wife. They moved in with me. So now I had a little bit of a responsibility. So I said, wow, I can't. But believe me, it stayed in my brain for a good few years after that and I don't know. I never got to the point that people who have actually done this is because it didn't move up to where this is I am doing it. It just became. If I'm at work and the right situation arises and we talked about this the other day, there have been several people who have attempted suicide and wound up living, and when they talked to them afterwards, all of the people said the same exact thing. The minute I did it, like the minute I jumped off the bridge, I said this is the stupidest thing I've ever done. How could I have done this?
Speaker 2:The reality hit them, but they hit theest thing I've ever done.
Speaker 3:How could I have done this? The reality hit them, but they hit the water and they didn't die. Somebody rescued them and they're like what was I thinking? And that's the unbelievable statistic Almost 100% of them never tried it again. It's not like they tried. They were unsuccessful at it. A year later they took their life again. Nope, they never attempted it again, ever.
Speaker 3:That's amazing they didn't realize I lost my mind. And, believe me, if somebody could have tackled my brother and held him down through that terrible period before he jumped off a bridge, if somebody could have tackled him and held him on the ground until that moment passed, I think he would still be with us.
Speaker 3:And it's the same thing. They call it self-murder, so it's the same thing. When somebody murders somebody, you know somebody's getting an argument with his spouse and over something inconsequential, and they and you know they pick up a baseball bat and beat him to death, right. And then are they, at the moment that that rage is going on, they thinking I'm going to go to prison, my name's going to be in the paper, I got a court, I just like gave up everything. No, the rage, you just took over. So the rage against themselves it's the term.
Speaker 2:It's really temporary insanity temporary insanity.
Speaker 3:So if you can get them through that. So that's why, before the temporary insanity occurs, even in, even in the case of a murder, you say oh, you know, your wife just took you to court, she's taken everything from you. You know I could kill her. You can't even put that in your vocabulary. So if I'm given a class or a clinic, to firefighter's first response I say I don't even want to hear that, it's on your option list, I don't want to hear it's option 50. If you know, if I lose everything, I'm no it and for me, luckily, the option it was on my. That's how I know it put it on my option list.
Speaker 3:How am I going to live the rest of my life? Am I ever going to be happy again? I lost my mother. I watched my mother die from burns in front of me. I mean, how am I ever gonna, you know? And then 9-11 came and the same thing. And then my brother's suicide, which damn near killed me from the grief. But I didn't think, think to myself, this life isn't worth it. I just said, you know what, we're all going to leave this life sooner or later anyway. And I've said that to him three months before. We're going to end this life sooner or later. What's the rush?
Speaker 3:Right, exactly, it's short enough actually yes, and you don't know. Like you said, out of the blue, perfect name for your thing. So why do we, as human beings, always project out of the blue terrible things? It's always projection towards the negative. You know, you get a little lump on your shoulder. Oh, it's cancer, I'm gonna be done, I'm gonna die. Yep, well, it might be just.
Speaker 2:You know, it's just a mark on your shoulders not cancer.
Speaker 3:And you know we do this all the time and, and one time I gave a seminar, I referenced this funny story. Of course, you're old enough, like me, to remember the honeymoon, is it Ralph Cramden, of course. What a fabulous actor he was. Yes, and I referenced this story because here's an example of getting in trouble and thinking it's something. So Ralph and Ed are sitting at the table in their little apartment and he says I just got a letter from the IRS.
Speaker 3:I can't believe it. I'm getting audited, oh my God. I took. I was driving the bus that day and Mrs McGillicuddy gave me a cake and I never reported it, oh my God, plus the penalties and the fees and he was driving himself crazy and not to the point of suicide. But he was actually saying, oh my God, I'm going to lose the apartment, I'll lose the house, alice is going to leave me because I, you know, and he goes to the IRS. He's shaking. You know the way he acted. He's shaking like a leaf before he goes in. Then he goes. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to he goes into the IRS guy like a mess.
Speaker 3:He made himself miserable for 24 hours. And he goes in and he goes, Mr Cramden, and he goes. Listen, I know the cake from Mrs McCulloch, honey. I never reported it and it was probably a $3 cake, you know.
Speaker 2:And he goes no.
Speaker 3:He goes. Well, what's the problem? He goes. Mr Cramden, you never signed your report, you never signed your return and that's all it was.
Speaker 2:You know, joseph, your story is inspirational. I mean, you really have taken some absolute traumas. You know the worst possible out of the blue things and you've had some beautiful good ones too, but you were able to like use them actually to propel you into doing what you're doing now powerfully good things, especially that burn clinic you did with the children. Wow, I mean that's amazing. You did that probably in your mother's name.
Speaker 3:I did. Actually, it's the reason I did it. Yes, I just. I did a new cookbook called American Firehouse Cuisine. It's available on Amazon or through me. You can go to my website, wwwamericanfirehousecuisinecom. I did it for the 20-year anniversary of 9-11. There's a bread pudding recipe in there Well, firehouse bread pudding that I'd put up against Bobby Flay or any of the top chefs that are out there, and I'm doing a firehouse cooking podcast right now. I built a studio here in my home. Oh wonderful. I slide down the pole every day to do the show that's also on the website so cool Good idea.
Speaker 3:That's on the website too, so I'm kind of trying to develop that thing and more of it is out there to your audience. Any chiefs, first responders, police officers, military that are thinking about doing a seminar, I'm available to do those seminars. I have a background in training in it. Now who better to do it than somebody that's experienced suicide personally with a first responder and is also have a background in it? Let me do one more. Can I get one more shout out for my nieces?
Speaker 3:absolutely I just want to give a shout out to my brother-in-law, my sister donna, and my two amazing, strong, handsome nephews, nick and jake, and my beautiful uh niece jessica and michael and michael's daughter is Isabel and his wife Barbara.
Speaker 2:That's so wonderful. I'm so wonderful, so grateful for you coming with us today, Joe. I mean, this has been a really no thank you. Enlightening, moving, powerful episode. I really am grateful, man, you really brought a lot to us.
Speaker 3:I'm grateful, too, for having me on.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 3:I mean, I cannot really say my articulated enough just thank you so much. That's about it. I I'm at a loss for words, that's. That's all I need.
Speaker 2:That's fun and uh, thank you very much for joining us.
Speaker 2:Jackie, thank you for my very much and um thank you, thank you for joining us on this amazingly powerful episode of Out of the Blue with Joe Bonanno, a retired fireman and now incredible podcaster, as well as putting so much into his life to pay it forward. Thank you again for joining us. This is Vernon West, jackie West and Joe Bonanno, and this has been Out of the Blue, the podcast Out of the Blue, the podcast Hosted by me, vernon West, co-hosted by Jacqueline West, edited by Joe Gallo, music and logo by Vernon West III. Have an Out of the Blue story of your own you'd like to share? Reach us at info at outoftheblue-thepodcastorg. Subscribe to Out of the Blue on Apple Podcasts, spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, and on our website, outoftheblue-thepodcastorg. You can also check us out on Patreon for exclusive content.