Out of the Blue - The Podcast: Finding the Way Forward

Behavioral Health and The Power of Story with JJ Winston

• Vernon West • Season 1 • Episode 20

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A single moment at fifteen – an apology followed by a tragic loss – sent JJ Winston on a course that would reshape her life. We sit down with the award-winning author, licensed social worker, attorney, and post-degree magistrate to trace how one grief-forged decision became a lifelong mission: defend the voiceless, dismantle stigma, and turn hard-earned insight into fiction that heals.

Across a candid, story-rich conversation, JJ Winston explains how stigma keeps professionals whispering for help, why documentation can unlock treatment when denial closes doors, and what safe conflict looks like in families trying to rebuild trust. We unpack cultural barriers—especially within Black communities—where taking on a mental health label can feel like shouldering a second weight. JJ’s core message lands with clarity: behavioral health is health, and untreated stress will write itself into the body.

JJ also opens up about her family’s deep connection to sickle cell disease and the “invisible until it’s not” pain that mirrors mental illness. Then we widen the lens on human trafficking, coerced work in adult homes, and the fear that keeps survivors silent. These lived truths power her novel series – "The Anniversary," "The Commemoration," and "The Revelation".

If you care about mental health advocacy, client rights, sickle cell awareness, or smart fiction that changes minds, this conversation rings like a bell—clear, resonant, and impossible to ignore.

JJ Winston: 

novelistjjwinston.com

Out Of The Blue:

For more: outoftheblue-thepodcast.org

For exclusive content: patreon.com/podcastOOTB

SPEAKER_02:

Welcome back to Out of the Blue, the podcast, where real people share real stories of resilience, transformation, and the human spirit rising through adversity. I'm your host, Vernon West, joined by my daughter and co-host, Jackie West, our social media and marketing manager, a professional musician, and a Reiki healer. Our guest today has spent her life standing in the gap for others. Judy J.J. Jackson Winston is an award-winning author, licensed social worker, and attorney whose work has changed lives both in and out of the courtroom. For nearly two decades she served as client rights officer for the Alcohol, Drug, and Mental Health Services Board, making sure the most vulnerable in her community were heard, protected, and treated with dignity. She is the author of three novels and a behavioral health workbook, blending her deep professional expertise with the art of storytelling to raise awareness and spark change. And as someone living with sickle cell disease, JJ has turned her personal journey into a mission, educating and empowering communities to take charge of their health. Today, as a post-degree magistrate, she continues to lead with courage, compassion, and an unshakable belief that behavioral health care is health care too. This is going to be a powerful and inspiring conversation. JJ Winston, welcome to Out of the Blue the Podcast.

SPEAKER_04:

Thank you, Vernon and Jackie for having me. It's just an honor to be here.

SPEAKER_02:

It is our honor, our distinct pleasure and honor. So, as we always begin our out of the blue episodes with at the beginning, as close to the beginning as we get. But we'll go back to that first event, maybe that sparked your life journey, you know, the thing that maybe happened out of the blue that would have um been the thing that changed you fundamentally in a sense that your whole world just kind of focused on that point. So let's start with your question. The question is there, it is. What is the answer?

SPEAKER_04:

Here's the answer, Vernon. Okay. When I was 15, um, I was in high school, and it was a peer that I uh went to school with. The two of us had a really bad argument. But previous to this argument, I wanted to be a computer engineer. Um, I'm a little bit older, I'm not as young as I might hopefully look. But we knew when I was a young person that computers they weren't 100% there yet, but they were coming. So I wanted to, you know, work in that field. And that was my goal. But then I had this argument with this peer that I'm telling you about, and it was a really bad argument. We weren't the best of friends anyway, so we didn't speak for like four months. She came to me and apologized and told me she was sorry for our argument and asked me, could we be friends? And I told her yes. And the very next day she committed suicide. And this whole event really, really fundamentally changed me. Um, I no longer wanted to be a computer engineer. I decided I was going to dedicate my life to children and to ensuring that no young people felt like she must have obviously felt to take her own life. And I was just so appalled. Like we, you know, we had people come in, like the social workers and therapists and counselors, and they explained to us that she had already made this decision. We learned this because she had started giving away all of her items and her belongings and making amends with people she had an issue with. And all of these were signs, but we were young people and we didn't know. And so therefore, I decided to dedicate my life to young people and then to just people. And so this whole event changed me.

SPEAKER_02:

Boy, oh boy. Wow, if that isn't something, man, that's very powerful. But you know what I hear really resonating loud to me is that I think it was like we don't know what out of the blue is. I'll just say we just I think we all kind of know, but but just supposing we don't know what what is it? It's something really important because it obviously wanted you to not be a computer programmer. It didn't want you to do that, and yes in a big way.

SPEAKER_04:

Later, later on, um, as I started to, you know, my education, my post-education after high school, I was given like a test to say what kind of job would be you would be strongest at given your personal characteristics and attributes. And they said I would have made a horrible computer uh programmer or slash engineer because they said I'm too social, I'm way too outgoing.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, you're gonna lose that talent.

SPEAKER_04:

I need to be with people.

SPEAKER_02:

That's what the universe knew ahead of time. They knew it already. Boy oh boy, what a calling. That's a calling and a half. That really is loud. Like uh, you did you did listen, though. That's important. I think that's the major lesson to take away for this is you gift, you should listen to those events, you know. That's what you did clearly. I think you did.

SPEAKER_04:

You know what? And it's just so um profound for me because this person was not like my best friend. Me not speaking to her for four months mattered not to me. I got that when it happened. You know what I'm saying? Sure. It was just so profound that she came and apologized, and then she did that the next day. And what I was gonna say earlier is what was even more profound for me is that she used a firearm. That's something that young ladies almost never use firearms when they do commit suicide. So to me, that said that this was really final for her. And at 15, you just want to say to yourself, what could possibly be going on in somebody's life that they would determine that they didn't want to be here anymore? And as I started to go through my education, because I do have a bachelor's degree and a master's degree in social work, and I'm a licensed independent social worker with supervisory designation. As I started to go through my education and get into my career, I realized a lot of people have things going on in their life. And you don't know what's going on in somebody's life, you only know what's going on in your life. So, therefore, what I'm hoping is that when people read my books, that not only do they um learn something, but that they also see how important it is to give people forgiveness as and also grace because you don't know when you might need some forgiveness.

SPEAKER_02:

Right, right. That's such a heavy, heavy, it's heavy, heavy lesson. That's a wonderful lesson.

SPEAKER_00:

When she apologized to you, did you did you hesitate at all to forgive her or or or did what kind of thoughts did you have in that moment?

SPEAKER_04:

No, I didn't hesitate. I just, you know, I was shocked that after all this time, she just out the clear blue, out of the blue, out of the blue, and just came up to me and apologized. That's something, you know, but it's still it's just that, you know, I was just so distraught over this. You know, I really took this really bad.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And it was because of the reasons that I just told you. It's like, you know, you're looking at yourself, you know, I was 15. She was 15. Like my life, you know, every kid has problems. It's our being a teenager. And then you find out there's a lot of things that sometimes are happening with young people that we don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_04:

And we need to really be uh give our kids grace and help them if we can.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, like really listen.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep, listening to those things that happen out of the blue, too. That's so key to this, hearing those messages that come from you know, out of the blue. We don't know where that means. I mean, I have ideas about where it means, and I'm sure everybody can have an idea about that, and we're not talking about that. But go on now. So this journey starts you off when you after when after after high school, what did what what did what did you do, what was your next steps?

SPEAKER_04:

Well, what I did was I um I worked uh first I went to college, but while I was in college, I always did all this kind of volunteer work um with teenagers and young people. And I was once somebody who went straight through school because I knew that if I took a break, I would quit. So I just went straight through for all of my degrees. And um, I I just start, you know, I finished my um my bachelor's degree, and by the time I was 23, I had my master's degree and I went to Case Western Reserve University, Mandel School. Then I started working, and so for years I actually did work with young people with kids, and what I would do is is uh find them foster homes and adoptive homes, and that was a really rewarding experience. I helped a lot of children. I have run into young people that I gave got a home for when they were kids, and of course, they're grown now, they're adults, and I run into them and I have no idea who they are, but they never forget me. And sometimes it really, really does make my day that people have thanked me because you know, because I found the right home for them, they were successful in their life.

SPEAKER_02:

What a key key part to play in their life, you know, that's huge.

SPEAKER_04:

And also huge when you don't even know who they are because they look so different now.

SPEAKER_02:

Then there's so many, and you must have done it for hundreds of people.

SPEAKER_04:

They have to remind you, you know, who they are. And then after I did that, I actually went over to the Adams Board and I worked there for 19 years. But while I was working during the adoption of foster care, I also was in law school. So I went to law school at night, and and then I just used all of my talents and skills to be a voice for people who have um substance use disorders and mental health issues. And we just kind of put it under one umbrella as um behavioral health. So I was the advocate. And so I would investigate abuse and neglect in our licensed facilities, um, and also rights violations, and also in our adult care homes.

SPEAKER_02:

That that's a real concern sometimes, what happens there, you know.

SPEAKER_04:

It is. It's these are independently owned facilities, and basically the people who live there need to be in a position to take care of themselves to the point that they can administer their own self, I mean their medications.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_04:

But these people, they prepare their meals. They, you know, they they have they make sure they have a uh breakfast, lunch, dinner, snack. They're supposed to watch them take their medicine. And they just are supposed to be, you know, supportive, right? You know, give them you know support. But people are independent enough to be able to be in the community. But unfortunately, you know, people who have these types of issues are sometimes victims, actually, more often than they are the perpetrators, they're more often victims. I believe that. Because people know that they have these issues and they use that as a way to take advantage of them.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. I I only have one experience uh with uh something that reminds me of this. When I was in the hospital for a stint, um I had uh during it was during COVID, and a lot of the nurses were sick, so they had replacements coming in, and the night shift was a bunch of replacements, and they were so uh they were coming from adult care facilities and they had no experience in where I was. And I noticed this really uh borderline abuse. I mean, I don't want to get into specifics, but I actually talked to the head nurse about it and told her they were doing this. She explained to me they were inexperienced and they were used to dealing with Alzheimer's patients. And I said that wasn't that really wasn't a reassurance to me. That made me feel like, how are they treating these Alzheimer's patients? You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, and that's also what I mean. Like, you know, you have people, and I've worked with that plenty of times too, with people who have dementia or some other type of memory loss disorder. Right, and they can be being abused and they don't remember their being.

SPEAKER_02:

They don't even know.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, you know, and I remember once having to investigate a home where they weren't giving them the proper staffing, the people who had um memory loss issues. And one person thought the other person was his spouse, and every day was forcing her into sexual relations. And basically, you know, the next day, neither one of them would remember. It was really, you know, and those are the kind of things where you need somebody to stand up for you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, definitely. You need some oversight.

SPEAKER_04:

Absolutely. And that was part of my job is to be that oversight. Somebody had filed a complaint, and I went out and I spoke to there, you know, there was like maybe one or two residents who did have some memory loss, but they it wasn't to the point that they couldn't remember. And they were able to corroborate, you know, what was happening.

SPEAKER_02:

So you you handled some um that is some sticky situations in that.

SPEAKER_04:

I have, and you know, one of the things that I would do is I'd also would refer people so that they could receive the appropriate uh services. And oftentimes I would have professionals who would call me and they would whisper and they would ask for help, but they would be whispering because they were fearful that their peers might hear them. And if their peers knew that they had this as an issue, they were very, you know, fearful that they would lose their employment, lose their livelihood, you know, lose the things, and that people would actually think that they were stupid.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_04:

So trying to get people who have professional who were professionals, trying to help them sometimes is really difficult because of the stigma attached to just having these type of issues, and even with treatment. So, you know, that's where my characters were born.

SPEAKER_02:

Characters for your novels, right?

SPEAKER_04:

For my novels, absolutely, because when we think of uh substance use disorder or we think of mental health, we often think of people who are poor and marginalized. And we don't think that, you know, that we don't understand that this is an issue that hits all of us. It has no color, it has no race, it has no religion, it has no socioeconomic status. But when you are rich and you have a mental health issue, people just say you're eccentric.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, right, right, right. That's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And we go, he's just so eccentric, you know, he's just different, you know, and that's okay. But if you are poor and you have these issues, we go, that person's crazy. Somebody needs to help them, somebody needs to intervene. And I just wanted to really explore all of those things. So that's how my characters were born.

SPEAKER_00:

I I don't know, I don't know if I have a fully formed thought, but um I think what I've been um hearing is that it can be really difficult for people at all to speak and be heard. And this is like just an overarching theme in all of humanity.

SPEAKER_04:

I agree. It is, and you know, we gotta help each other stay on top of this, you know, like in my um novels, what I really also wanted to explore, and I think this is for everybody, is the issues related to trauma. Trauma, unresolved trauma will show itself as mental health over time. And people don't realize that. You know, we have things that have happened to us, and then there are things that are secrets, family secrets. It's not just your secret. Like maybe you do want to unbury yourself, but it's not just you, other people are involved too, and you have to be really careful.

SPEAKER_00:

Is that also what you would say what you might call genetic trauma that like has passed through years and years of being born in the same family? You know, two people.

SPEAKER_04:

Right. You know, I think that what happens is, you know, we have so much, like, you know, uh things that we're dealing with. And it's not something that just happens to people who are poor or middle class or rich, it's just the human experience, being human is not easy. You have to have phenomenally low times sometimes so you can appreciate the great times. Uh we have high highs and low lows in life.

SPEAKER_00:

But do we have do we have enough support um or even education around when we get to our low times?

SPEAKER_04:

We don't. But we're doing better. What's happening now, particularly after COVID, is people are starting to acknowledge and understand mental health more. They're starting to say, hey, you know, they're gonna be honest. We're being more honest than we used to be. But even in some communities, that's still something people are still afraid to do. So one of the reasons why, you know, I wanted to make my characters are African American is because in in African American communities, not all, not everybody, you know, when we talk about this, you know, it doesn't mean this is everybody, but some people really believe strongly, you know, it's already hard enough having, you know, an issue, you know, just being African-American and people being racist to you and people being rude to you and disrespectful, you know, why would I want to add something else? So now you want me to have all those things and you want me to have that label too. And that's very difficult. And we'll say, look, you know, you survive so many other things, you should be able to survive this. And it's just really bad advice.

SPEAKER_01:

That's terrible advice.

SPEAKER_04:

Right. What we should do is if we understand how important our minds and our mental well-being is to the rest of our health. If I'm so stressed out and I'm not dealing with that, I will also start to have physical problems. I have high blood pressure. I'll have, you know, other issues that can put me at risk. So what we need to do is to, you know, first off, not be so judgmental to each other and create safe spaces where people feel like they can be able to be honest and say what's going on. And also, when they're honest, we support them.

SPEAKER_02:

It's all about love, really, when it comes right down to it.

SPEAKER_00:

What makes an environment conducive for people to be honest with each other?

SPEAKER_04:

I think we need to encourage each other that we are gonna listen to them. And we need to also remember there's certain things that when we get upset with each other, that we don't do to each other. You know, if I'm talking to you and I tell you something about me, don't get mad at me and then throw it up and use it as a weapon against me. Because if you do, that's not gonna make me want to come tell you things about what's going on with me. We have to learn how to have disagreements better. Like nobody, if you get along with somebody all the time, it's probably something wrong with you. That's just not even human.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's kind of that's that would be called what I would call a people pleaser, right? Right, you know what?

SPEAKER_04:

There's conflict is not necessarily something that's bad. We have to remember that, right? Right. Sometimes, you know, out of conflict, you know, we grow. We need that so that we can grow. If you're the same person at 60 that you were at 20, shame on you. I get that. Okay, that means you haven't grown. We all should be evolving and growing, becoming better, becoming more understanding. That's what happens as you get older. The things that bothered you at 20 don't bother you at 60.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_04:

Because you've transcended that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, you've transcended those little things, they seem they grow smaller in your perspective.

SPEAKER_00:

What if you're a person who is really afraid of conflict, and you have thought about how in your childhood there was a lot of volatility around you? So you just kind of move through life like really being afraid of conflict, even though you know you it'll it will help resolve things, but you don't necessarily associate it with safety, you associate it with danger. Like how how can someone who's afraid of conflict create more of more safety around entering into that?

SPEAKER_04:

I think that the best thing to do is to work with someone, get yourself a therapist who will help you do exercises to help you start to gain some of that strength that you need. You know, I'm gonna tell you what I do see also. I see people who grow up or to get older and they never conf, they never confronted whatever it was that upset them. And then the person who was the source of anger passes away or something before they have an opportunity to confront that. And sometimes they have issues, real serious issues. You know, what we always gotta remember is tomorrow's not promised to any of us, so we should be trying to live every day like it could be our last, okay?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, I definitely feel that.

SPEAKER_04:

And you know, understand that, you know, there could be things that you're upset about when you were a kid, you don't understand. Yeah, it might be things that people did that you saw as a problem that when you got the full story, you might see as a blessing. But some things you can't tell kids. I got grown kids, all my kids are grown, and now that they're older, things that I like when they were younger, their perception of perhaps a me, excuse me.

SPEAKER_03:

Let's use me as an example, Jackie.

SPEAKER_04:

Like maybe when I was when they were younger, they thought I was mean or I was stern, or and now that they're older, they now have a full understanding because things that I couldn't tell them when they were young, I can now tell them as adults. And now they have an understanding and go, Oh my god, you weren't actually mean. Like you should have done that. Like this is important, you should have, you know, but they don't know that because they were kids and there are certain things you can't tell a kid, right? It's not appropriate.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I think that's an that's great advice for every parental children relationship, really. Because um, I definitely myself have learned uh evolving in our relationships with Jackie and my other children. Definitely this is uh what happens. You you unearth things that happened years ago, and you can now explain them better why that was so. And they get more, they have now more perspective as human beings, you know. That's wisdom. You know, I I was thinking about it, it kept popping in my brain, so I'm gonna say it. I don't know if it's if it's if it's not off uh I know the story of a of a the other story of how a pearl is made. It's pretty remarkable story how an oyster oh yeah, a pearl, right?

SPEAKER_04:

The pressure.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, an oyster gets an uh uh a piece of uh substance or a grain of sand that irritates them, it irritates them, it pisses them off, right? It angers them. And so what do they do? They form this this beautiful set shell around it, which is basically the same thing the shell is made of, oyster shell, right? And then it comes out as a pearl and doesn't bother them anymore, and we use them as things of beauty in a way, make chains of them. So, I mean, I always think of that as like a good analogy for stuff we go through. Absolutely, you know, if we get this thing hit that irritates us, chances are we need to learn from it.

SPEAKER_04:

Absolutely. So I um I'm hoping people will pick up my story. Um, I you know, really wanted to shed light on mental health, but then in my second and third books, I wanted to add some new themes.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, toss all your books. Let's let's hear about the books.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, so my first book is called The Anniversary. I'm gonna um put that. Show it, show it. Beautiful cover, yes. As you can see, Jackie, maybe you can't, because I don't think you can see this one in front of me, right under me. But these are behind me are the pieces of art that my covers are made from. See, this is uh the commemorations. You can see that one behind me. You've been admiring them, yeah. Yeah, this is my second book cover, and then my last book is called The Revelation, and it's a series, and it follows a family here in Ohio, where I live.

SPEAKER_02:

And um, and basically one of them they're both professionals and they have a really nice life, but one of them uncovers information about his past that basically causes him to have um basically a breakdown and everything that happens because of it, and it deals with so many different topics, and um like let's talk about like the evolution that this stuff, what prompted that first book?

SPEAKER_04:

You know, the first book actually was a short story, and I gave it to a professional writer who read it and liked it so much, he told me I should develop it into a novel.

SPEAKER_02:

What made you write that story?

SPEAKER_04:

You know, I I just wanted to basically, like I said, I saw this commonality of so many professionals calling me, whispering, afraid, afraid that if people knew what was going on, that basically, you know, they would be ostracized by their community, by the people they work with, they would lose everything. And that does happen. And some people really do need help. Some people need help, and you know what? And I'm just gonna speak plainly, and sometimes people don't like what I say. I keep it like really honest though. We do have duties to our family members and friends. I don't know your family, I know my family. You know, I remember I worked with the young man and he said, you know, his family called me. He was the only boy in the family. And the people weren't from Ohio, they were from another city, but they moved to Ohio. And for whatever reason, this man's childhood home had just really um significance for him. So they realized that he was suffering with the mental health issue. They did get him, you know, treated, but he didn't want to take the medicine. So what they would do is they would bribe him and they would tell him if he took the medicine, they would give him so much money every day. But so, you know, that's what they did. But basically, he really wasn't taking the medicine. He was just tricking them into believing that he was, and then he had money. And so, long story short, he went to the city that he came from and went to the house that he used to reside in and broke in basically. And these people came home, and he's lucky because you know, they're people who will kill you if they come home and you are in their house, and it's legal self-defense. The story is, yeah, it sure is because that's their that's their castle, that's their dwelling. Yeah, right. And so, but luckily, these people were able to get this young man. You know, they got him out, they got him help. But the family was like, you know, when they take him to the hospital, you know, he's so convincing. And he would say to the doctors, you know, my family, they're exaggerating, I didn't do these things. And you know, the doctor doesn't know them, they don't know what his baseline behavior is, they just don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

They don't know that.

SPEAKER_04:

So I suggested to the family that they videotape him when he's in this state, and you know, he would tell them he was Jesus. So they bought him to to talk with him, and he said, You know, Miss Winston, they're just exaggerating. This isn't true. I never said I was Jesus, and they pulled out the tape and they played it where he clearly said he was Jesus. I said, That is you, is it not? You did just say you were Jesus.

SPEAKER_02:

And what was his response?

SPEAKER_04:

He dropped his head, which means you know that something's wrong. Sometimes, you know, you have to understand that it is difficult for all of us. That's what made me write this book. It's difficult to tell people that you're different. Nobody wants to be different. You want to be like everybody else, and particularly when you're young. And that's your first book. It's called The Anniversary. The Anniversary. Right. And I named it that because people don't um realize that there are anniversaries that are not always good. Let's use an example. 9-11. Oh, yeah. 9-11 is a day that's the anniversary of the bombing of our Twin Towers. Or, you know, the taking down of our twin towers. A horrible day. Right. It sure was a horrible day. It is actually my brother-in-law's birthday. And up until that day, it was just my brother-in-law's birthday. But then after that day, it became 9-11.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_04:

And it was an anniversary. And I want people to understand that all anniversaries are not good. And everybody has anniversaries they're dealing with that actually mark something bad that happened. The death of a loved one. You know, there's certain things that have happened that it's just, you know, that day means something to you. It doesn't mean anything to anybody else.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_04:

But it means something to you, which is another reason.

SPEAKER_02:

So it's a powerful, maybe that's a catalyst, a powerful mover into your into your mind, in your soul.

SPEAKER_04:

That's right. And you know what? You don't know if the people around you are experiencing one of those anniversaries. So give people grace.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Give them some space. Right. Give them some space.

SPEAKER_04:

You don't know what's going on with people. They don't just come out and be like, hey, today's an awful day. Did you know that five years ago, today, this happened? Like, people just don't do that.

SPEAKER_03:

No.

SPEAKER_04:

But they may not be in a good mood. They may not be themselves. And I'm just saying that, you know, I just want us to start giving each other grace.

SPEAKER_03:

Grace.

SPEAKER_04:

And in my second book, The Revelation, I wanted to introduce some other things besides the mental health. And one of them is sickle cell disease. And I just want people to know that my daughter actually lives with sickle cell disease. When I was eight, my dad passed away from it. I also lost two aunts and an uncle to sickle cell disease. And I also have, in addition to my daughter, I have uh a niece, a great nephew, and a great niece all living with sickle cell disease. And a lot of people don't know a lot about it. And I wanted to use my um novel as a way to basically help to raise awareness about it so people understand it more and just so your audience understands what it is.

SPEAKER_02:

I think that's great.

SPEAKER_04:

It is um it is a defect in my daughter's red blood cells.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_04:

And instead of being circular and soft, there's a shape like a farm sickle.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_04:

Abnormally shaped, and they go through her veins and her arteries, and it causes immense pain. My daughter looks the picture of health, but sometimes she's very ill. And so I could see the parallels between mental health and sickle cell disease, and I wanted to include it because people with mental health disease or defects or issues, oftentimes you won't know there's anything wrong with them until something's wrong with them. They're fine until they're not. And that's the same thing with my daughter and her illness. And then lastly, I wanted to um interject and put um human trafficking in my novels.

SPEAKER_02:

Is that in revelation?

SPEAKER_04:

That's in uh the commemoration and revelation. And the revelation is all three things. But what I did is the first one is is more focused on mental health, but the second one is mental health, sickle cell, and human trafficking, and the third one is mental health, sickle cell, and human trafficking. Why I wanted to include human trafficking is because in my state where I live, human trafficking is big, is like number fourth in the nation. And people often think about human trafficking, they often think about uh sex. And I want people to know that human trafficking is not just sexual. We have a lot of people who are forced into labor and they are forced to work pretty much for nothing. Um, and that's human trafficking too, is basically slavery. So I want people to understand that.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I think people would understand that that indentured servitude almost. That's kind of to, and then I think how what examples of it did you encounter any of those people with that?

SPEAKER_04:

I did. I had people who were brought to this country who uh don't know how to speak English, they're dependent on a relative or family member or somebody from where they're from. And a lot of we have to remember that there in other countries, there are people who are they're afraid of the police. Their police are not our police, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_04:

We have to remember that there are places where the police are corrupt, and so therefore, the people are fleeing that country because of the corruptness, but then they're very afraid. But I remember I had a uh client that had to make Chinese food like 18 hours a day. I also once worked with someone who basically didn't have enough money to reside in her group home or adult care facility. So basically the owner used her as a slave, would make her do all this work. I mean, just outrageous work. Oh wow, and that's a that's illegal. Of course, and we want people to know about it. So I um I've just been trying to um to use my novels as a vehicle to raise awareness about a lot of different subjects, and to also talk about the strength of family and again forgiveness. And um, in my novel, my pe my um main characters lose a child and also dealing with you know grief. A lot of people are dealing with grief, unresolved grief, and that can also um manifest into a mental health issue if it's untreated and physical health eventually, absolutely people get sick because they're dealing with just crushing grief, yeah. And there are places that can help you. Like I know I have somebody that I know that lost their child, I know lots of people, you know, but I know somebody who lost a child due to a drug overdose. Oh boy, and she was um telling me she went to a support group with other parents who also lost their children from a drug overdose, and that really helped her.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely, I can see that being so powerful. Um, I can see this journey of yours is uh kind of magnificent, really, as it unfolded into your um journey journey bringing you to look to do an action. Your life was in actual rubber hits in the ground. You know, you were you were actually boots down the ground, you were helping people with your skills, and that wonderful skill of being in social being able to talk to people. Yeah, that's amazing. And then you take that to even further now, you're developing it into becoming you know, having a voice in a in the novelist world to put out that's right, put out entertainment, but it's educational. It's absolutely which I don't think anybody who is a good reader, most people who read don't just read for entertainment, they they want to hear something to learn at the end by the end of the story. I mean, if you even if you look at Shakespeare, there's a moral lesson in every play. Absolutely. So there's something to be taught. So when you're teaching through your educ entertainment, I think that's a very unbelievably high noble calling. You know, thank you. You know, you have to have a real passion for helping to be able to sit down at that typewriter or computer these days and put that stuff on to you know, make it real, make it something to read. You know, there's a lot we know that writing is rewriting, so you spend a lot of time rewriting.

SPEAKER_04:

I sure did. I have really serious editors who don't play around and they're um they really were on me, but believe it or not, uh just a fun tidbit of information. I actually wrote all three of my novels on a Samsung Galaxy tablet.

SPEAKER_00:

Amazing. Oh, that's cool.

SPEAKER_04:

Because believe it or not, it just I cannot stand being behind the computer for too long. I do it all day.

SPEAKER_02:

I actually end up writing on my phone more now these days. It's crazy. Yes, and see that the for me, the phone is too small, it gets small, it gets a little aggravating, especially with my fat fingers. You know, I have fat fingers.

SPEAKER_04:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm a bass player, uh, my fingers are strong and meaty.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, yeah, I love the bass. I love music. And so, Jackie, you're a musician as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. So, what do you play? I play guitar and sing.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, wonderful! Girl, they wouldn't never let me sing, you know that, right? Hear my voice, right? I'm serious, they never let me sing. You know what would happen is, you know, we'd be singing, you know, like for the choir, and then everybody say stop. And then they walk up to me and they go, sing, and then I sing, and then they go, okay, stop. And then they go, you know what? You have a really um loud voice. You should be the MC. I was always the MC. And that when I was a kid, and that just prepared me for what I do now.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's great. And and I would say, like, channel you, you're you're definitely channeling your ideas through voicing.

SPEAKER_04:

But they never say you can sing. My daughter, she is she's not like, of course, Bobby as good as the two of you, but she's musical, and she used to play the baritone in the marketing band.

SPEAKER_02:

I played the baritone, I love the baritone.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay, and she loves that. She got like the big award from band and all that when she was young. But every I love music, I love music, I love all kinds of music, and I'd be you know, singing with the music, and she says I sound like a dying whale. I asked her, How does a dying whale sound? She goes, like you, mom.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh keep singing though, and I do because you know what I tell her, I don't sing for her, I sing for me. Yes, sometimes you do things because you like to do it, not because what other people think, and that's what I hope your audience gets from that is that you know, do things for yourself. If other people don't like it, too bad, and don't let people tell you you can't do it. You know, if I hadn't believed in myself, I wouldn't have wrote three novels.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_04:

I used to tell people I'm writing a novel and they would laugh because they didn't believe me. Because I can sometimes, you know, I'm always making jokes and I'm funny and stuff that they don't realize that's you know, I got a serious side too. And then when my novels were done, they go, Oh my gosh, you were for real.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Well, I think it's powerful and inspiring. You know, it's like it's to me, I'm telling you right now, I feel like the bell ringing. And why I say that is because bells are one of the most wonderful sound machines on the earth. They think of how long they've existed, right? Bells have around for a long time. And when I hear I hear a bell, and I've used it in music sometimes, but it's always to express some joy. Like at the end of the song, and you ring a bell, like a real sound of a bell. I love it. When I hear a bell, it resonates with my whole body, I can feel it right down to my toes. And I think that what I love about bells, it reminds me, first of all, joy, but also it's true, truth. Like when something is true, it rings like a bell.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, wow, that's true. And it's search bells, because I hear search bells all the time around where I live at well.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, and think about it, right? The one what the what what's the guy? The hunchback was always ringing the bell, right? Right. Well, he get he got the girl. And he did. So something to that bell, but um, what I love about this is though, JJ, you're like a bell, and you're ringing. Thank you. And it's very true, authentic, beautiful stuff. And I can't wait to share this with uh our audience. And of course, we're gonna include links to you, get it so people can get your books.

SPEAKER_04:

I hope so.

SPEAKER_02:

We have we've had a few um novelists on writers before, and I for I know that for a fact that people have used them for book clubs.

SPEAKER_04:

I hope they use my books for a book club, but they've been um I'm hoping that people will go and check me out, look at my Goodreads reviews. I got lots of them. Um, people, my books are resonating with people. I'm just trying to make sure that um my messages get out there because I feel like this is my legacy, you know. When you go, you still have some words here that we you know express what I believe. It's fiction, but I tell people this fiction is is really mirrors life, really.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, of course.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Like parables, you tell real truth with with with fiction.

SPEAKER_04:

Absolutely, and we can also, I want people to be educated, but also entertained. Nobody wants to read, you know. I'm I'm gonna tell you, I've taught, nobody wants to be lectured, people wanna, you know, get the information, you know, and also you know, get a good story too. So that's what I try to do for people.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, a good story allows people to just be in each other's shoes and see from different perspectives.

SPEAKER_04:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, that's a great idea.

SPEAKER_04:

And people say that they always tell me I get a lot of feedback about my novel. I just do want to say this, it is heavy, yeah. Until it's not like you know, this is up, this is what people need to understand. You don't know what people are going through, they don't usually come and share. If you say to somebody, how are you? and they go, Let me tell you, my leg hurts, my head hurts, this hurts that people run from you. They go.

SPEAKER_02:

They tune right out. They don't want to hear no, you know what they go.

SPEAKER_03:

I asked you how you were out of courtesy. I really didn't want you to tell me all that.

SPEAKER_02:

No, right, they just want to hear fine, fine, thank you, and you this pretty much you know they don't really want the answer to that.

SPEAKER_04:

We teach our kids when somebody says, How are you? the appropriate response is fine.

SPEAKER_00:

You right, that's it. I've kind of made such like an experiment out of that question and answer system where I started actually answering it.

SPEAKER_04:

And what happened, Jackie? How many friends did you lose?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, yeah, I mean, I I think I have bewildered some people by actually answering. Do they listen? Sometimes, yes. Most of the time.

SPEAKER_04:

And then other times what do they do?

SPEAKER_00:

Other times they they look for like a way to continue a more positive type of conversation, and so I kind of turn it into a joke usually. Okay, you know, to save it.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

This has been a great uh podcast with you, definitely today, JJ. I mean, I I can honestly say that's one of the best ones we've had, and I really love it. Um, I don't really compare them, I shouldn't say that, but can't help it. Um, it really was invigorating and inspiring, and I feel like a lot of that bell ringing, I really feel the bells, you know, really loud and clear.

SPEAKER_04:

Thank you so much, Vernie. It was a pleasure and an honor to be on your show. And Jackie, it was wonderful meeting you. Thank you guys for having me.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you so much for joining us, JJ. And we'll I I'm gonna get your book. So you know what?

SPEAKER_04:

Just go to my website, and I'm just gonna say that so your people will know. They can just go to www.novelistjwinston.com. Everything for me is novelist JJ Winston. I'm on Facebook, Instagram, pretty much all the different social medias. Am I good at it? No, I guess I'm old. But who cares?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, now that now that we've got some people listening, go to those places, go find look up JJ Winston, novelist JJ Winston. There'll be a link at the end of the episode, but you know now from hearing it verbally, so go ahead. If you're in your car, write it down while you're driving. No, no, no, don't do that. But um, I'm sure you can download the episode and hear it back later. So thank you so much for joining us, JJ. It's been a real pleasure, and I loved meeting you. And um, thanks so much for sharing your wonderful story with us. It's been like a bell ringing.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02:

Out of the Blue, the Podcast, hosted by me, Vernon West, co-hosted by Jacqueline West, edited by Joe Gallo. Music and logo by Vernon West III. Have an out-of-the-blue story of your own you'd like to share? Reach us at info at out of the blue-thepodcast.org. Subscribe to Out of the Blue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And on our website, out of the blue hyphen the podcast.org. You can also check us out on Patreon for exclusive content.