Out of the Blue - The Podcast: Finding the Way Forward
Out of the Blue-the Podcast features interviews with inspirational survivors of traumatic out of the blue events who have overcome unimaginable challenges, sharing their stories of resilience and triumph. By sharing these stories, "Out of the Blue" aims to create a community where others who have faced similar hardships can find solace and strength as together, we find the way forward.
Out of the Blue - The Podcast: Finding the Way Forward
How Hitting Bottom Became a Calling with Dr. Nicole Labor
Give up medicine, stay a junkie. A freeing thought followed by the shock of conscience changed everything for Dr. Nicole Labor. Nicole takes us inside the real mechanics of addiction and recovery, from the double life of a high-achieving medical student using drugs to the slow, steady rebuild that turned a bottom into a calling.
Together we walk through the moments most people skip: how unprocessed trauma and genetic risk met early alcohol use, why “high functioning” is a seductive lie, and what happens when detox alone can’t hold. Nicole shares the relief and terror of telling the truth, the humility of relapsing, and the surprising force of a sponsor’s simple authenticity. We unpack the “cake recipe” for the 12 steps, which include "ingredients" like honesty, open-mindedness, and willingness, plus the coaching role a sponsor plays to turn process into lasting change.
Then we widen the lens: Codependency, Al-Anon, and the “three Cs” reframe control and boundaries for anyone caught in someone else’s chaos. We also explore the neuroscience of recovery. Nicole’s journey comes full circle as she returns to the historic home of Dr. Bob Smith, now writing protocols, educating communities, and translating hard-won wisdom into clear, evidence-based care.
For more on Dr. Nicole Labor:
https://linktr.ee/theaddictsdoc
https://www.theaddictsdoc.com
Out Of The Blue:
For more: outoftheblue-thepodcast.org
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Welcome back to Out of the Blue, the Podcast, where real people share those unexpected life-altering moments that change everything. And remind us how even our darkest detours can lead us toward purpose, healing, and hope. I'm your host, Vernon West, joined by my son and co-host, Vernon West III, musician, artist, and the creative mind behind our show's logo and theme song. Today's guest is someone whose story truly embodies the heart of this show, Dr. Nicole Labor. Her journey began on what looked like a clear, well-planned path, growing up in a loving, normal suburban family, studying hard and following her dream of becoming a doctor. But out of the blue, that path took a sharp and devastating turn, one that would ultimately define her calling. Nicole found herself in rehab, addicted to heroin, her future hanging by a thread. Yet from that crucible of pain emerged a fierce compassion and an unshakable purpose. What began as her personal fight for recovery became her life's work, helping others break free from addiction and dismantling the stigma that surrounds it. Today, Dr. Labor is one of the nation's leading voices in addiction medicine, a board-certified physician, medical director at multiple treatment centers, and president of the Labor Hood Change Project, where she brings education, empathy, and raw honesty to communities across the country. She's also the author of The Adictoholic Deconstructed and The Addiction Workbook, two powerful tools that bridge the gap between science, recovery, and real life. We're honored to welcome her to Out of the Blue to talk about transformation truth and what it really means to turn your deepest struggle into your greatest source of service. Welcome, Nicole, to Out of the Blue. Let's dive in.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. And thanks for that lovely introduction.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you earned it. It's all you. Let's start at the beginning. Let's start at that transformation. Yeah, you grew up in this wonderful family, and what happened? What you know, how did your even addiction start? What brought you into that world? Then never mind how you got out of it.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, let's let's be honest, right? I mean, we know there's some genetic component, and we know that it takes a trigger of some kind. Um, but yeah, I I would say that my my childhood was happy and joyful, and there was lots of good, and my family was very strong and closely bonded. Um, and I did suffer some uh sexual abuse as a child, though. And I don't think I ever really dealt with that in the right way. Um, so then when I started or when I first was introduced to alcohol, um, both my genetic capacity to consume large amounts of it suddenly and easily combined with sort of this um, you know, this portion of my brain that I had shut down, um, I think the two were like this this very potent cocktail that launched this addiction. And I just um I started using substances pretty regularly, um, but also maintaining this um this dual personality, right? It was a very good student, followed rules, good, good kid, didn't, you know, didn't violate curfew and didn't sneak out and didn't lie and cheat and steal and all this stuff, but I was also using substances um without anybody really knowing. And I felt kind of proud of myself and I really liked the chameleonism of it. I liked feeling like I was like smarter than everybody. I was I was duping everyone. Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Um I can so relate to that. That's really relatable. I swear to God, that ringing so many bells would be because I even shared once at a meeting that I thought I was gonna be the first one who was gonna be able to do it in safety. I was gonna find a way to keep myself high all the time. I was gonna have everything I needed, an ample supply. I would never run out, I would never go into withdrawal, I'd have what I need, and everyone never would know, and people would love me. Yeah, they would love me. I was wrong.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and some of my friends like to remind me from like back then that I would talk about how I was gonna have these like this like big mansion, and I was gonna have all these beautiful glass bongs as vases and decorating the house, and like because I was gonna be you know the person that can do it all.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, the dream of every druging addict.
SPEAKER_00:Super high fun. I'm like, I am just the epitome of high functioning. That's gonna be me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a pay it's a fantasy, but it's so like it's really alluring, you know. I mean, when I was in the throes of my own addiction, I kept thinking that someone when I finally did get help and got out of it, the thing that helped me the most was the guy said, Don't, you know, there's nothing wrong with you. You just wanted to feel good. There's nothing wrong with that, you know. And I said, Whoa, that makes sense. And then I dealt with it a whole different way. But go ahead, tell us more.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I just I mean, it just feels like you know, I I don't I don't think I had this goal in life. I'm gonna be a physician, I want to help people, I'm gonna do these great things. Um, and the fear of giving up that dream was was terrifying. And then, but yet here I am actively using and kind of not knowing how to live life without using substances, and so I'm afraid of giving up that dream. And so marrying the two into this great functional fantasy was kind of the only way that I think my brain could comprehend how how to keep moving forward because I didn't think I could give up either one.
SPEAKER_01:Now tell me, would you did you think of because you're going for a doctor, right? I'm I'm imagining because I was never going for a doctor, I was a musician. I imagine if you're going for a doctor, you're thinking, yeah, I'll just prescribe myself what I need. You know what I mean? You have unlimited access.
SPEAKER_00:That was a that was part of it. Um, it was also things like we if you work in the emergency room, if you work as a surgeon, if you work as an anesthesiologist, like you don't even need to prescribe things, like you have access to the raw materials. I could just take the drugs.
SPEAKER_01:Really? A junkies dream. It's a junkie's dream, it really is.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. But but here's me though. This is my thought process, right? So I'm in medical school and I'm going to these ERs, and that's where, of course, I'm getting my supplies and my paraphernalia and everything. Um, but the drugs were, you know, I was using just straight old school heroin. This was before a fentanyl was like widely available. Um, so it was just regular street heroin. And I just I would make the joke that, like, oh, nobody will ever catch me because the only paper trail I'm leaving are the little baggies that I'm throwing out the window. Like, I'm not prescribing or using anything like legal. Um, so they'll never get me.
SPEAKER_01:That's a good one. Yeah, I checked that one off. That's a that's a great thought. I wish I thought it. But you know it's funny if I'm laughing. I shouldn't be laughing. This is a serious subject, but it just makes me laugh because it's so so real relatable. I mean, God, go ahead, keep talking because I I I gotta listen to you more than talk myself. I won't shut up. Go ahead, tell us more.
SPEAKER_00:I I had I had created this whole life of this image that I wanted people to see, um, but had no idea who I really was underneath it because like keeping that image up and keeping those balls in the air was taking all of my time and energy.
SPEAKER_01:Exhausting, right?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, like the for me, a lot of the um the the drug was, you know, also drama and relationships and like making people think, oh God, manipulating and like creating image. Oh, I love that. That was just it gave me such a charge. And like the the ability to do that because I, you know, was so it was such a part of me to be dishonest and manipulative, like that was everything that would give me dopamine. I wanted more and more and more of. And I just didn't know, I wound up sort of on the other side, you know, after I got out of rehab, feeling like this empty shell of a person. And like, well, what am I if I'm not that, if I'm not that dichotomy of, you know, a functional addict? Like, what's left? Because I have no idea. I didn't even know. I always tell people when I got out of rehab, if you went through my music collection, you would know everything about everyone I ever dated and nothing about what I actually liked.
SPEAKER_01:Hmm. That's interesting. The feeling you were talking about, I've once heard it described as being the hole in the donut. I felt like the hole in the donut. Because I think that's felt that's how I felt when I first got sober. And it wasn't for the 12 steps, if it wasn't for the 12 steps and finding a way out of that with uh with what those 12 steps did for me personally, the work you in those 12 steps, you know, you find out who you really are, and you you know, you learn to forgive yourself for be for being that manipulator and duplicitous person. But then you have to build now on the on that. So tell us about how you did that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I was I was in a relationship actively using, and I was in my third year of medical school. Um, so I was like floating from hospital to medical office and like learning or whatever. And I again thought I was being very like duplicitous, and I thought everybody was fooled. If you look at my actual reports from that time from like the hospitals and the doctor's offices, I was not as sneaky as I thought. Like they were like, she's never here, she disappears, she's late all the time, hygiene is questionable, like all kinds of you know stuff indicating that there was clearly something going on, right? Um, but I I was actually sitting in the car. Uh we we were staying in New Jersey. We were um I was rotating at a medical office in New Jersey, and I didn't want to spend the money on a hotel to have to stay there. So we were staying in my car in a parking lot, and um, I had this thought, but this was after we had made this decision like a week earlier, like we're gonna start cutting down. Like I'm gonna, here's my pie chart of how I'm gonna cut down our use, and we're gonna just, you know, wean ourselves off.
SPEAKER_01:Very scientific, very good.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. And um, obviously after one day that plan fell apart, and I was just kind of feeling really overwhelmed and frustrated. And so I had the thought, fuck it, I'm not going to medical school. I'm just gonna be a junkie for the rest of my life. And it was the first moment that I had peace, right? Because it was like this decision, this relief, this like, oh, okay, I've finally chosen a path. And within seconds, you know, God's spotlight was shining on me and was like, who are you? You are this is not the girl that I that I brought into this world. This is not who you were meant to be. And I don't know where you get the nerve to try and mess up my plan.
SPEAKER_01:That's a moment of truth.
SPEAKER_00:That was a moment of truth. It's it was definitely a spiritual awakening, but at the time I was very non-spiritual, very non-religious, I was very angry at God or the idea of God. And so it just felt like this very strange like something's in my mind, something's going, like, what is this? Um, and the next day, and this is interesting, and this is how God works in our lives, right? Um, the medical office where I was rotating was a primary care office. So it was primary care physicians. For some reason, they had a psychologist, a therapist that actually worked in that office for both patients and for staff, I guess. I have never since seen that set up. I have never been in a primary care office that had that set up. But she was there and I was uh having a bit of a panic attack, probably preceded by a little bit of withdrawal. And um, I told the the doctor that I was working with, like, I'm having a panic attack. And they brought me into her office and she sat down and what's going on or whatever. And she said, Have you had panic attacks before? And what's your anxiety? And blah, blah, blah. And I just pulled up my the sleeves of my sweater and I showed her my track marks and started crying and said, I don't know what to do. Um, and that was like the that was the next day after the whole in my car incident. So um, and that's when things started to unfold in the direction pointing me towards recovery. Now, don't get me wrong, I was immediately regretting the decision to tell her. I was immediately regretting all of these things. I was desperately trying to crawl like claw that information back. Forget what I said.
SPEAKER_01:Do it all. Rito, read all. No, I know, I know that feeling.
SPEAKER_00:So then she put me in so she put me in touch with the state monitoring board. So when you're a physician in any state and you have a medical license or potentially can get a medical license, um, they have advocacy boards that will help you get treatment and then protect you from the medical board so that they can't take action against you as long as you're doing all the things. Um, so that advocacy board got in touch with me, and then I, you know, then it was like kind of this whirlwind blur of like they sent me to detox. I went to detox with this, like, very like, all I need is detox. I'm only physically addicted. I have no love for the drug. I just get me through the detox, I'll be fine. Detox was awful. They got me through the seven days and they let me go because I talked a good game and I was less than two miles down the road before I had a needle in my arm again. Um, and so then it was okay, well, now you have to do this and you have to do this. And so ultimately I wound up having to um tell my school, because I was still third-year medical school. So I had told them I was suicidal. I told them I was taking some time off to go to detox because I was suicidal, because at that moment I thought having an incurable mental illness seemed much better than having a totally treatable substance use disorder. So I called the school and said, I'm I'm suicidal and I'm going to the hospital, whatever. So after detox, when I had to go to rehab, I had to call the school and say, Hey, I I need further treatment. And they were like, Okay, well, we need a letter from your psychiatrist. And I was like, Oh man. So I had to go into my school and sit down with my dean and tell her the whole story. And she basically said, Well, since you didn't get caught and since you turned yourself in, as long as you do everything that this advocacy board does says, you can start third year over again and then finish. Because I had passed the boards in first and second year, so she couldn't make me start all over again, which I think she wanted to do, but she couldn't. Um, so I went to rehab. I went to inpatient rehab at um Marworth, it's in Pennsylvania, um, through Geissinger, and um they had a health care professionals program. So it was like a regular general population program, and then the healthcare professionals, they also had um firefighters and police, like they had real specialty counseling for each kind of department. So I went there, uh, I met some amazing doctors um that were running the program, and I did 73 days, and I really got a lot. I mean, I I I I always kind of dismiss my first year as like this I'm just miserable. Um, but I will say that the time that I was in rehab was really, really substantial. I I got I started understanding a lot of concepts about myself and my past and my trauma and like working through those things and being honest and vulnerable and you know, so that was kind of that was definitely the start of my journey. But once I got out of rehab and moved back into like real life, um I started, I I was miserable. I I was going to the meetings because I had to go to um 12-step meetings, that was a requirement. Um, and I was, you know, I thought they these are dumb. I don't they're not gonna help me. I'm too smart for this. This is this is for dumb people. Um, and there's no way I'm gonna benefit, but I have to go, so I'm gonna go. And I did the exact same thing in A that I did in high school, which is I'm going to make these people look up to me as the person that knows everything about whatever it is they're interested in. And so I was the one that was reading the big book and that would be able to regurgitate any passage from it that would be appropriate. And I would hear something profound at one meeting and take it and use it as my own in another meeting. And I'm like, I'm like the mayor of AA, you know, I'm walking around like, oh yeah, hey, everybody, I got and every, and most people were like, She's doing you're doing so well. She's doing so you're really like they really believe most of them. Some of them like, mm-hmm, but most of them thought, like, oh yeah, she's you know, you're you're doing so, you're you've you're blooming like a flower blooming. Meanwhile, every other night I'm going to the bar at 1:30 in the morning, not to drink because I didn't want to get caught, but to hook up with somebody because that was the only way that I could get some dopamine.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's all I wanted. Um, but yeah, I and I couldn't figure out though, then why am I so miserable? I'm going to these meetings, I'm saying all the little cliches I'm not using, but yeah, I'm still miserable. Um, and it wasn't until I went to an AA meeting that was for healthcare people, a caduceus meeting, and there was a nurse there, and she was sharing, and she was sharing a story, just like a dumb story about something that happened at the laundromat or something. But it was so profoundly authentic. Like it was so raw and honest and and not self-deprecating, but self-aware. Um, and just the way she was telling the story, I just, I don't know, something about it made me shut up and listen. And I just thought, God, how freeing that must be. Like how freeing it must be to be able to just tell the truth and and that's it, like dump it and be done. Um, so I talked to her after that meeting and ultimately wound up asking her to be my sponsor, and she became my sponsor for the next like three years. And that was really when my recovery started, and I had probably a year abstinent at that point. Um, and then that's you know, that's when I things changed exponentially because that's when she started helping me walk through the steps and figure out who I really was, and you know, and the irony of the fact that everything that I had tried to make myself appear as, I actually was at my core without trying. I just needed to let go and let it out, you know. Like I wanted people to think X, Y, and Z about me, and really that's who I was.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's the irony of wanting people to think you're so smart. So you do all of the research, which takes a lot of effort and intelligence to re to regurgitate these things. That is an intel that is a difficult thing to do, but with a different with a weird motive. Clearly, it's a part of you, but yeah, it's misguided or something.
SPEAKER_00:It's just it's just weird. I'm just a weird person. Like I do weird. Who is it?
SPEAKER_01:You know, I mean, welcome to the club. Welcome to the weird club. We're all in that, I'm in that club. We are I'm pretty sure my family is too, because it is genetic.
SPEAKER_00:I know weirdness is definitely genetic.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. So what you learned so much more, you became the addiction ninja. I love that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I started doing addiction medicine. Well, I did I decided to take the family medicine route to go to addiction medicine, and I actually did my um residency and family medicine up in Buffalo, and then I wanted to do an addiction medicine fellowship, which is an additional year of training after residency. And the rehab where I went to treatment had just started a fellowship. So I got to go back to the rehab where I got treatment and do a fellowship in addiction medicine with the two doctors who treated me when I was there. But I had five years clean at that point. So it was like full circle. So I got to be on both sides of the bed, essentially. Um, and so at that time, this was like 15 years ago, there were not very many addiction medicine specialists in the country. Um, and so I started applying for jobs, and it was just addiction medicine was just starting to kind of come because of the opioid crisis and everything was just start starting to like come to light. Um, so all these big hospital systems were hiring for like medical directors and stuff. And my ego was like, oh, I could do that, I'll do that. But the reality is that, and thank God I have people in my life and from in the rooms to be like, that's a bit much for you. You don't, you don't need that kind of responsibility. So I was going on interviews, and one of the interviews was in Akron, Ohio, and it was at Suma Hospital, which is where Ignatia Hall is, which is the first hospital that ever treated alcoholics with Dr. Bob and sister Ignatia.
SPEAKER_01:Right, that's true. Yeah, I know that. Yep.
SPEAKER_00:So I went to an interview at that hospital thinking this is just a practice interview. I'm not moving to Akron, Ohio. Um, and it turned out to be the best, most well-defined, and most appropriate job for me at my level. So I wound up moving to, well, near Akron, Ohio. And so I was actually in the hospital where Dr. Bob and sister Ignatia treated patients. I was running Ignatia Hall, the detox unit. I was like, yeah, like Dr. Bob's direct descendant. Like, what a better, what better place is there to start your addiction medicine career? The street that the hospital's on is called Dr. Bob's Way. And on Founders Day every year, everybody flocks to Akron, to the University of Akron. And one of the things they do they can do is get on a bus and come to the hospital where I was working and go through because we had like lots of stuff, you know, memorabilia and stuff about Sister Ignatia. So um it was just like a really cool start to my career.
SPEAKER_01:You just gave me chills, just honestly God, that was this gave me chills. Um, you know, I read somewhere that the 12 steps were written in 1860 by a Jesuit named Brother Ignatius. I hope I'm right. I better Google it. But what I read was that it was created by this guy, Brother Ignatius, in 18 something, 1860, I think it was. And he did it because at that time he said that people, mankind, were becoming they looked at the Bible and God as an anachronism. They have no relationship with their higher power, none whatsoever. So he wrote the twelve steps, not saying uh Ampollis over alcohol, but on Paulis, period. And um that he came to believe a power greater than themselves was gonna be stored in the sanity. And um that led to he did that to create what he thought was gonna be an experiential faith so someone could find a an actual methodical way to acquire spiritual awakening. And that's I think what the 12 steps kind of do. And then when I first got the 12 steps, and I may be the second year of my actual sobriety, I would say that at meetings, I would say, you know, it's like baking a cake. I say, like, if you follow the steps, just like you've if you're baking a cake, right? What do you do? You take some eggs, put them in a bowl, you take some mix, you put it in a bowl, pour in the water or whatever, the milk, stir it all up, it's a goop, right? You set the oven for something, 375, and you let it preheat. You follow the directions and you put it in the oven, set the timer, and as soon as it goes ding, you open it up, frickin' it's a miracle. It's a cake. Like I would say, how did that happen? How did this thing become a cake? It was goop, and that's exactly what the 12 steps do. They actually are that kind of a miracle. I mean, it's like baking a cake. You just gotta follow those steps exactly that laid out and do them really thoroughly, and you'll get that cake.
SPEAKER_00:Vernon, I use not even kidding you, the exact same analogy, except I essentially say if you take your ingredients of honesty, open-mindedness, and willingness, and you just decide to mix a bunch of stuff together, like your eggs and your, but you're not you're just mixing flour and eggs and milk and whatever, and you just think stick it in the oven and you guess the temperature, you may or may not get something good at the end. But if you take those ingredients and you follow the exact recipe and you bake it as prescribed, then yes, at the end you'll have a delicious cake. But even better, what if you had the option to have somebody from the food network, like Bobby Flay, talking you through how to sift your flour and how to cream your butter, and so you'll have an even more delicious cake. And that to me is what the sponsor is. So, like provide you the recipe, and then the sponsor is like a professional talking you through how to do it. Same exact though, same exact.
SPEAKER_01:That's wild. That's wild. I still to this day believe that everybody should do the 12 steps. I mean, agreed. I am totally a believer. I mean, I think there's no other spiritual program on the earth today that is effective as that. And I've never seen anybody that did it thoroughly not get to the promises where they have a life second to none, where they have all these things come true. I mean, you gotta you you actually have a higher power in your life. You can actually, when you do things, you can handle things in intuitively that used to baffle you. I mean, that's the fruit of these doing these steps. I I I must have handed out hundreds of 12 and 12s as soon as I got it. I mean, handed to people, I don't know where that where those books ended up. They probably ended up in the trash for some of those people, but I didn't care. I kept kept buying them and handing them out. You gotta read this book and do it, like it says, you'll get a cake. But I still feel that way. I'm still pretty pretty passionate about it. That's one of the reasons I love the show, and it was reason I knew you were gonna be great, because this is what this is the message. I can't believe it. You you actually had the cake analogy. That is so fantastic.
SPEAKER_03:I know. I'm so I mean, I'm surprised you never told me about uh the 12 steps like growing up. You know what's very not uh I was present.
SPEAKER_01:I was being I I think I was Al Anon in myself to death. It was it came to the point where you know you you you let go and let people have their journey until they want something. If they ask you for that help, then you're right there with it. That's what I learned in Al-Anon, which is a higher a more a very sophisticated use of the 12 steps, because it gets into the fine points of actual human relationships. And part of the Al-Anon thing is you you let people have their own journey, they need to hit their own bottom, they need to have their own experiences, and then when they come around and they're open and receptive, you're there with the answers, you're there with the instructions. So that maybe is it. Well, I hope I hope I'm I I'm making amends to you right now, Vernon. This is my living amends to my child.
SPEAKER_03:Well, yeah, I mean it's I'm curious because as someone who's not like specifically addicted, I mean I I probably am, like I'm addicted to like food and stuff, and definitely dopamine isn't like you know, it becomes addicting in various things, like in food and stuff. Um it does seem like just a generally a good thing to read, just to just to have the tools.
SPEAKER_01:I'll send you a copy of the 12 and 12.
SPEAKER_03:Boom. Dig it out of the trash.
SPEAKER_01:I got several copies upstairs in the box.
SPEAKER_00:I will tell you that I worked the 12 steps in AA for like to stop using. Um, and I did have obviously a spiritual awakening because that's what the 12th step says. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of one through eleven, now you have this message you need to share with other people, right? That's what the 12th step is. But I will tell you that I I got married one in my third or fourth year of sobriety to somebody else who was also in recovery, and he wound up relapsing, and our relationship became very, very codependent, like very unhealthy. Like I was not using, I was going to my meetings. He was not. And it was like I fixated on him the way I fixated on drugs. Like I was constantly worried about what he was doing and my debit card sleeping in the pillowcase and hiding the keys. And like, I'm at work, I'm at residency trying to like see patients. And I'm like distracted thinking about like, is this dude at my house trying to sell my TV? Like, like it was a lot of chaos. And so someone was like, Well, then you need to go to Al-Anon. Um, you need to go to Al-Anon and and work a program there around this relationship. And it was in Al-Anon where I really found like the most profound spiritual growth in my entire life.
SPEAKER_01:Me too.
SPEAKER_00:Same 12 steps, but the the growth was really just remarkable.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_03:Wait, interesting. I mean, as someone who kind of doesn't know about this stuff that well, that's perfect.
SPEAKER_01:Like a most of our audience. Go ahead. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Sure. I'll represent the dummies out there.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no, just not saying that.
SPEAKER_03:I know I was just I was just being cheeky. But um, but what I know that Al-Anon is for when you have a relationship with an addict, so it's not you're the addict, it's your how to handle your relationship. But what it's it's it's surprising to me that that would be the more profound spiritual awakening. Is it because you are like sort of doing the effort for someone and it gets you super out of yourself? What is that?
SPEAKER_01:No, go ahead. You can answer this one.
SPEAKER_00:It's a it's about that you are the problem. If you are in a relationship with someone that has substance use and they are impacting you in in any way, like negatively, it's because you're the problem. Not not they have their own problem they got to deal with, but you start to look at them as the problem in your life. They are the ones causing all the issues, it's them, them, them, and not paying attention to the fact that I am not taking care of myself. I am not looking at what's important to me. I am just being angry and resentful and focused on them. And they are my drug that they become the drug of choice. And so going to Al-Anon, literally the 12 steps in Al-Anon are exactly the same. The first step is I'm powerless over alcohol, and my life has become unmanageable, even though I'm not drinking, the my person is, and I'm powerless over it in the same way they are. Like I can't change them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and that's why I guess that's probably why I mean I didn't preach the 12 steps to my children. I mean, I hope to live it by example, but I didn't, I thought because of what I learned in Al-Anon, I thought that would be uh probably make you more against it than anything. I think the do's and don'ts of Al Anon will will tell you, you know, don't don't fixate on the alcoholic, don't don't constantly like be a like you can't be uh calling them up saying how you doing all the time. You can't do that. You can't um you know there's a lot of do the do's and don'ts I find I live by them actually to this day, and they're very important to me. Um the Al Anon program is I think really the most you said it, Nicole, it's the it's the uh the sophisticated version of the how to use the 12 steps. And it was who was written, it was written by Dr. Bob's wife, I believe. Yeah, which makes so much sense, you know.
SPEAKER_03:It does.
SPEAKER_01:Because I do believe that yeah, go ahead, Jim Brian.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, so it's obviously not just applying to alcoholics, like you can apply these things to people, places, and things people, places, and things we're we're powerless over everything. Yeah, I mean, I'm just curious. I don't want to make this podcast into like a an AA meeting necessarily, but sure. Um, because then like I don't know. I just I'm I I don't even know what to ask because it is very interesting to view someone else like if someone else's addiction is affecting you, that that is becoming your obsession or addiction in a way.
SPEAKER_01:You get dopamine from it, you you do get some sort of satisfaction, right?
SPEAKER_03:And look, full transparency, part of me is like resisting that because it's like, well, this person is doing that to me. So yeah, too, right, and I'm I suppose I am the one who is allowing it. Correct. I think so then, so then my question is if you love and care about somebody, like undeniably like their like longtime friend, relationship, family, whatever, how then do you best take care of them or do what you can? Is it is it then just like is this what boundaries when boundaries come into place? Because I've also had trouble asserting boundaries and then having that be sort of flipped against you, and then it's like, well, I guess I just have to know more than the person in this moment or something.
SPEAKER_01:Something like that. I think that's pretty accurate, right, Nicole?
SPEAKER_00:I think that's pretty accurate as well. You so essentially you stay in you stay in your hula hoop, you create a hula hoop, and you can only control everything inside that hula hoop, and you cannot control anything outside that hula hoop. So the way that they perceive you, the way that they hear what you're saying, the way that they come back at you and respond, none of that's your responsibility.
SPEAKER_01:You can't feel how you respond. You gotta use the three C's. You didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it. And then those three C's have to be there. And that you know, and one of the things I love about Alanon too is and AA, it's it's there too. You keep the focus on yourself. Like if you if you look at when you you point a finger at somebody, right? Uh this is the yeah, you got three fingers pointing at yourself, one finger pointing at the person, and the thumb is at, you know, God, I guess.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and essentially the the 12 steps are really just like you break them into chunks, like the first three, second, three, third, three, fourth, three. And basically all they're saying is the first three steps, you're you're going, okay, I acknowledge there's a problem here, and I need to do something to fix it. And what I've been doing isn't working, so I need to accept that there's something that can help me do it.
SPEAKER_01:It's the power greater than yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Which you could interpret in any way that you're comfortable. Like for me, I was I told you I was very like anti-religion, anti-god. For me, when I went into AA, the power greater than myself was simply that if I went out into the parking lot and attempted to lift up a vehicle, I would be unable to do it. But if the whole group of us surrounded that vehicle and all tried, we would probably be able to get the vehicle off of the ground. So a group of people is physically stronger than me myself. Therefore, there is a something that's more powerful than me. And it was real simple like that for me, because I couldn't get the whole high in the sky thing. And then that grew over time, that became more. But just accepting that a group of people was more powerful in any way than just me by myself. That became my higher power for a while. And then it grew. So after you kind of find your higher power and you accept there's a problem, you move on to the next set of steps, which are really all about digging through all the trash, like looking at your history, looking at your resentments, looking at your fears, looking at all the times you pointed your finger at somebody else and had three pointing back at you. And like what, what through what was what was your part in all of that? You know, and we because we play a part in every resentment, every fear, every negative interaction we have someone with someone, we play a part in that. And even things like being molested as a child, like I played no part in that. I had that was not my fault, I had nothing to do with that. But my part was that I carried that chip on my shoulder for the next 25 years and used it as an excuse to say fuck you to everybody else, because this happened to me. That was my part. Interesting.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so that's just a follow-up question, because that is that is uh heavy. Um, but makes sense, but also I now I'm asking, as like a someone who is like well versed in in like the medical field, what do you have to say about like the physical, like carrying the physical trauma and like how that informs you in like like a subconscious way? Is that like because I think like how could you blame yourself for that?
SPEAKER_00:But in a way, I I suppose Well, you don't, and that's the thing, it's not about blaming, you don't blame yourself at all. It's not about blame, it's about accepting responsibility for whatever part of that intimate history is yours. So, because if I if I'm just angry and resentful all the time, it's not about like, oh, I forgive him. And like, no, no, I I forgive him because that makes me feel better, and that's a lesson I've learned over time. Um, I forgive you because I don't want to think about you anymore. And I don't want you to rent space in my head for free, and I don't want to give you any more of me than you've already taken. And so that's kind of like, but the only way for that to happen is to let it go. Like you have to let it go. But if it's just sitting in you and like festering and like you that anger, it's always there. People see it. It's the chip on your shoulder, it's kind of the cynical like wall that you have up that you don't let anybody in. Like that was my part. Not dealing with the trauma is was my part in that. And so we all have, we all play a part in anything that's making us physically or mentally, emotionally like stuck. It's it's the tendency is to blame. They did it to me, right?
SPEAKER_01:But the reality is I let it. That is really powerful stuff. I mean, really powerful. I'm actually myself going through that exact thing in my own 35 years later recovery. I'm still digging up something that was holding me back. I definitely had held on to almost like child abuse. I mean, I was 22 and I got abused, not physically, but taken advantage of as a musician. And I was screwed royally by people who I trusted. And I did I did my fourth step years ago, and I didn't even try to rework that one. I said, Oh, I'm gonna keep that. I'm gonna always want to hate those motherfuffers. So let me keep that. And go, lo and behold, yeah, I went out again because that will do it. That's all you need to do is hold on to that resentment. And and and if you don't go out, well then you're living pretty miserable. You you do have that. You do you might look a little arrogant sometimes. You might come up with stuff you you wish you didn't say, you know, why I act like that, why did I react like that? When you get rid of that stuff, when you get rid of all that, for me, I'm doing that now. I'm doing another fourth and fifth, and I'm finding it to be so what a blessing. It's removing a lot of those old stupid things. I don't know what I was doing. Matter of fact, I talked to somebody about it and says, you know, what you did was you wanted to, it was like a voodoo doll. You held it so you could every once in a while take it out and stick pins in it. Like, what are you doing? You know, what kind of a what a waste of time, right? What a waste of energy. But I did it and it ruined you know my my happiness for quite a few years that I that I didn't let it go. And I'm finally realizing, yeah, man, let it the let it the F and go. Because you know, it doesn't, it's not it's it's it's powerless unless you give it power. You know what I mean? I uh it's renting space in my head for sure. And I went years every so often when things weren't going my way, I'd go, yeah, well, if they didn't do that to me back then, oh boy, would things be different now. Oh boy, it's not my fault. Nope, I didn't do anything. No, I did. I held on to it. I did. Instead of learning from it, because let's face it, bad things happen to good people all the time. We have to learn from that. We have to, you know, take it and say, what's the lesson here? You know?
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's the gift of a good program of recovery to me, is that like I when I was actively using, if you told me the stove was hot, I needed to touch it, and then I needed to touch it again with my left hand, and then I needed to put my face on it and sit on it and make sure it was hot, you know, because I don't trust you. Um, but in recovery, I get to make the choice to trust that the stove's hot because you said it. So like I always think of it like um I in the rooms, I stand on the shoulders of giants who have been there before me, and that allows me to see further than if I'm just standing on the ground tripping over my own feet. So like I see people make that mistake of holding those resentments and not letting those go and then just seeing them be stuck, you know, like the this gray cloud of just misery. And you're like, how are you not seeing this? How are you not seeing that you are your problem? It's not them, it's not that job or that boss or that spouse or whatever. It's you let it go. You have to let it go. Yeah, you know, so that's the gift. Like you get to see other people letting it go and then experiencing that freedom and that relief. And then you go, oh, okay, I maybe I will do that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's wonderful. I mean, absolutely wonderful. This is so cool. I mean, it is like an a lot of like an AA meeting. It is really like uh, you know, we're experiencing my first one. Nice welcome in full view of the public here, not anonymous.
SPEAKER_03:I know. Shoot.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but that's okay. So what you're you're you're doing now, what exactly would you say? Sum it all up what you're doing with your life now.
SPEAKER_00:So I am so I'm medical director of a bunch of different facilities. So I write the policies and the protocols for how we're treating people in addiction medically. Um, I also do a lot of education for the community, like for at churches and um I do podcasts or I have I'm on social media. Um, I and I do snippets of education, and I really try to, and this is like, and it's between you and me, but and now the whole podcast, but really a lot of the neurology that I talk about, I talk about the brain chemistry and the biology of the brain, um, in like my social media where I'll be like, oh, you know, like one day at a time, this is what's happening in your brain when we say one day at a time. This is why it's helpful. And I take a lot of this stuff from the program. I don't specifically credit the program because there are a lot of people that hate it or that are had bad experiences or heard terrible things that have created entire social media platforms going like anti-12-step. And you can't, I mean, you can't fight that, right? And I didn't want my platform to be like just the defense of 12 steps, but I do feel like a lot of the 12-step program is based in science, it's based in neurology. And they didn't know it at the time, it unfolded the opposite, right? We did the things first and then learned about why it's working later. Um, so I do a lot of talking about that, about the brain and how it works, and like I try to tie it into different concepts that are related to recovery in general.
SPEAKER_01:Oh wow, that's a beautiful place to end the podcast, right there. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you. Because it uh it is, it does feel like this is these are tools that would benefit everybody. And then sometimes it has this, you know, oh well, I'm not I'm not an addict as far as I know, so why would I be an AA? But I think that clearly what I've seen now is that these are just good for life, good tools for life. And and practicing humility in toward yourself is the biggest thing I'm taking away.
SPEAKER_01:And humility doesn't and humility doesn't mean thinking less of yourself, it means thinking of yourself less.
SPEAKER_03:Oh my god, put it on a popsicle stick. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01:The t-shirt said that.
SPEAKER_03:But um, no, thank you. Thank you very much. And I feel like there's more I want like there's more we could have gotten into about your like uh career now.
SPEAKER_00:Let's do it again.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we're gonna definitely oh my goodness, yes, we're gonna do a series with you for sure. Gonna pump it up too, because I can't, you know me. I want to get I want to hand out 12 and 12 everywhere I go. This is my way of doing that with the podcast. Excellent. Yeah, I can't wait to do it again. Yeah, we'll do it again. But thank you for joining us on Out of the Blue, and thank you everybody for joining us. This has been a great episode of Out of the Blue with Dr. Nicole Labor.
SPEAKER_00:Well, thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01:You're so welcome. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_03:All right, bye guys. Bye, Vernon 3. Thank you. VC3, we called. All right, later.
SPEAKER_01:Correction. Saint Ignatius of Loyola wrote the precursor to the 12 steps, known as the spiritual exercises, between 1522 and 1524. Out of the blue the podcast, hosted by me, Vernon West. Co-hosted by Vernon West the Third, edited by Joe Gallen. Music and logo by Vernon West the Third. Have an out-of-the-blue story of your own you'd like to share? Reach us at info at out of the blue hyphen the podcast.org. Subscribe to Out of the Blue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And on our website, out of the blue-thepodcast.org. You can also check us out on Patreon for exclusive content.