Reconstructing After Addiction with Dr. Nicole Labor (Part 2)

In Part 2 of our conversation with Dr. Nicole Labor, we discuss practical healing from trauma and why the "survive, strive, arrive, and thrive" model can work for anybody, not just those who are recovering from addiction.

We get concrete about nervous system support: movement, breath work, cold exposure, and the “smallest possible win” approach when depression or shutdown makes everything feel impossible.

Then we zoom out to the bigger arc of growth and the key areas of Dr. Nicole Labor's books: survive, strive, arrive, and thrive. “Arrive” is the moment you’re no longer only your recovery story – you’re a whole person with identity, goals, and meaning. “Thrive” is what comes next: optimizing health, cognition, and quality of life while accepting that life still gets messy.

For more on Dr. Nicole Labor:

Laborhood Change Project, Inc.

Transcript

Welcome Back And Part Two Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Um welcome back to Out of the Blue the podcast. This is part two of Dr. Nicole Labor. One of the things I was thinking about, uh, wanted to ask you about was EMDR. Uh I read about this about eye movement to suspectation and reprocessing. Now you were saying that that's um something that you recommend, you know, someone coming through the uh this for striving to for reality, strive is real. That's what the chapter is from. And um I like I want to know more about EMDR. I've heard about it a million times. What is it? How does it work?

SPEAKER_02 0:58

To be fair, so EMDR, it it involves eye movements and sort of bringing up trauma. And when you come when you do somatic work, like work with the body, eye movement, body movement, breath work, um, and you combine it with sort of bringing up the trauma, you're essentially working those two areas of the brain together to kind of rewire things. So it's a it's an effective mode of therapy for trauma. Um, you have to get certified in it. I'm not certified in it. It's the therapy, it's a therapy, it's a therapeutic modality. So therapists typically will go get trained in EMDR and then they can use it for um trauma work with with patients who struggle um with that ongoing internalized trauma. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah, it's interesting how it's uh it's it's about stimulating both sides of the brain. So that that's that's an interesting to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Um all the trauma work is very interesting because it's a lot of it is really bodily, it's it's physical combined with the mental to kind of re-rewire, jumpstart things.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Trauma triggers and nervous system gymnastics. Um I really love that chapter because um, you know, understanding trauma is a big thing. And this is where it says the science of ACEs, averse childhood experiences. Um that I think is probably more prevalent at least to people that I know that have gotten sober. Um you don't know it when it when you're uh when you're suffering from it, you don't really know it. I mean until like I say, until you get uh introduced uh to a substance that makes you free from it. And I I don't think you know what, I don't even think I was aware of it. For many years, like uh when I've been doing like my fifth fifth fourth step, I started going into like deeper thoughts of stuff that I had I don't know, glossed over. I guess there's something you do when you do when you read when you're going back over your mind and thinking of your past. I guess I realized that when I did my recent fourth step um that I was holding on to things that I felt like really weren't gonna hurt me. In fact, I like to hold on to them because it was my way of having like a voodoo doll that I could take out once in a while, stick pins in it, you know, like you bastards, whatever it was, you know. So uh but now you know what a relief it was to find that um it was a result of sort of childhood trauma that I held on to those things. And um I um uh for me, this that reading your book helped me find that. So I I really like thank you for that. It was it was wonderful to get that objective accounting of um you you cover it in this book, but you do get into it a little bit more in the other book.

Somatic Tools And Small Steps

SPEAKER_00 3:57

I'll just say I think it's fascinating that so much of your body is aware of trauma way before your brain is or your mind is. So you're going you're going through these steps, like maybe like gravitating toward substances that get you outside of your mind in a way that's like almost like you're a robot sort of like drawn to something and you don't know why. But like this in a lot of cases, like I feel like if I've uncovered some sort of traumatic thing, it's been after I guess trying so hard to find something but giving up, and then eventually you you your body just like releases like this understanding of what you've been through, which is hard to do without therapy, I'll say that. It's hard to it's hard to get to those revelations, but like somatic practices, those are like those are helpful, right? And that's like uh bodily repeated patterns, right? Like tapping both legs or even like running.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Like, yeah, and you actually say things about breath work, cold cold exposure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

I mean, there's a there's an older book called Um The Body Keeps the Score.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

That's I've heard that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Yeah, so that that book talks a lot about that, about like just your nervous system and how like trauma and and energy is stored in the body and how it can be released or um or whatever. But yeah, a lot of times you've you've and it's very similar to like the concept of the in the 12-step programs where they bring the body and the mind will follow, right? Your mind is so messed up at the beginning that you can't comprehend how going and sitting in a meeting and listening to some people talk about their drinking is going to help you in any way. But they say, well, just trust the process, right? Just go, show up at the meeting, and you'll feel better at the end of it. And every time, for the most part, you go, you wind up feeling better at the end of it, even though you didn't want to. So you basically physically do the thing, and emotionally you'll catch up to that. And so, and or fake it till you make it. That's another one people say, Oh, you know, you physically embody the person you want to be, and over time you become that person. And so that's what a lot of like trauma gets stored physically and mentally, but it's so locked up mentally that a lot of times the easiest way to access it is to release it physically, and so it's a process, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Cause there's a part of your decision making that has to allow your body to go do the thing, and it's like that moment is really difficult. Like even it reminds me of depression, like how you you have to, if you just walk outside for even like 20 minutes, you will feel better. It's like that. I mean, look, there's different degrees, of course, but it will it will be effective in some to some degree, but like you still have to get up and do it.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Well, yeah, when you're when you have like suppression, like what the or you're just like so unmotivated, or whatever. Like, I'll I tell people, I need you to get up and wash one dish. That's it. You don't have to do clean your house, you don't have to take wash one dish or go brush your teeth. That's it. All you need to do, and then you can check that off your list of something you did today. Most of the time, once you accomplish that small goal, the motivation is to continue to accomplish some goals. So most times people will wind up washing the whole sink full of dishes or taking a shower after they brush their teeth or something, but sometimes they don't, but at least they get that little tiny kind of like dopamine hit of I accomplished something today. And that alone sometimes helps. So, yes, the distraction, the doing something different, the stepping outside of that headspace where you're living does make a difference. And no, yeah, you're right, going for a 10-minute walk is not going to cure someone's depression, but it may be the first step to them being able to go for a walk every day, and then they get enough sunlight over time and their moon shifts.

Self-Compassion And Top Shelf Dopamine

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah. Like that, like you have in chapter 10 of what uh it's self-compassion versus self-indulgence. I mean, I hardly think I think it's so important that you bring to bring that up because how important that is to have self-compassion. And that's the when you're coming back out of recovery and coming through recovery. I mean, we I we tend to beat ourselves up. We tend to think what a I did so many bad things, oh my gosh, I made amends, all that, but you know, how fast the amends helps you. Oh my god, when you do amends and fifth step and all that work, it definitely relieves a lot of that. But I don't know if it's it's like you were saying, it's it's almost physical. It's almost physical. You know, you have to have compassion for yourself. And I you know um, you know, I was saying something the other day, and I even put a little thing on uh my vlogs that I'm into I'm interested in having uh I like I think I want top shelf dopamine. Like I in other words, for me, there's a top shelf dopamine. There's a there's a bottom shelf, you know, it's like a quick kit of have a cookie, you know, uh call somebody up or call an old friend or something. That's it might last for a half hour, it might feel good, but the top shelf dopamine is really when you do something completely selfless, like it even so and I think self-love, self-compassion, self-care almost runs into that level of high top shelf dopamine. Because to do that, the barrier, I think there's a lot of internal barriers that have to be overcome. Like some sort of self-loathing that's becomes that's almost physical. And so for for someone to come out of their their recovery and start to realize that taking care of yourself is absolutely maybe even number one on the list. Because if you can't, if you what like I always say, you gotta give it away to keep it. Well, what if you have nothing to give away? I mean, you gotta have something to give away. So why not you gotta start with that? You're gonna be able to self-care, you know. Is there such do you think there's any such thing, any truth to top shelf dopamine? I don't know. Some dopamine does seem like it's more refined and more distilled, even like uh like a like a like a fine aged scotch. Not that I would know.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

I think that you are uh I think that you are correct in the metaphorical sense. Yes. Good, good, that's right. I mean dopamine is dopamine, the molecule is the molecule, but I think that um certain types of activities um read in the brain more warmly than others. Yeah, that's just the interpretation.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

That's that validates that metaphor for me. Because I always felt that top shelf's dopamine doesn't just light up your brain, it lights up your heart. It does something deep to you, gives you something.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

You get you get dopamine if you go buy yourself a new outfit at the mall, right? That you can afford, that you set money aside for. Like this, it's not something like a compulsion. Like you buy yourself something new, you feel good about it, you get dopamine. Um, you also get dopamine when you help your neighbor, you know, bring in her groceries and put them away. And you may even get the same amount of dopamine from both of those activities, but one of them resonates at a deeper or a more profound level.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

That's your top shelf open, that's your top shelf dopamine right there.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

I almost wonder how much of that is like just your subjective opinion on the thing. Like, uh, if you truly believe like you haven't gone out of your way to help or to buy something for yourself, and you do, and you feel this like, I really did something for myself. That's amazing. Like, I'm finally making the step, versus if you were always helping your neighbor and then you help them again, you know, like how much of it really is just your perception of a the of a dopamine hit.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Yeah, no, I mean that's that that's valid. If it's something that you're doing all the time and you know, your brain isn't registering it as something particularly like outside of your norm. Um, but I think that then we're not necessarily comparing apples to apples in that situation, right? So it would be about a novel, a novel action versus another novel action. So I'm doing something that I never do or rarely do by buying myself something at the mall that I, you know, don't normally do, and I'm doing something novel and helping out my neighbor. And when you compare the two of them, one of them resonates a little bit differently. But yes, if you're comparing like chronic behavior, like to a novel behavior, like novelty is always going to kind of outshine um chronicity. So anything that you're doing that's new and exciting is always going to feel like a shiny new dopamine molecule.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Um yeah, because I'm thinking like, is it worth I mean I've heard I've heard it's important to keep doing new things. Yeah. It makes it feel like you've you've had a richer life because you you're doing you have more experiences, but also maybe for that reason too. Um but yeah, I'm just thinking like if you frame things in a certain way in your mind that are like they're positive things, but you frame them like this is a really good thing for me to do, could that like help you? I guess. I guess I don't really know what I'm asking. But it seems like there's a subjectivity to it where you can almost convince yourself that the the positive thing is a really important thing for you to do, and then that reinforces you doing more good for others.

Arrive And Thrive Beyond Sobriety

SPEAKER_02 14:26

I mean, you're assigning salience to activities, so that's always going to be a subjective thing. I mean, there's always going to be a piece of your brain that was pre-programmed to kind of say like these things are more satisfying than these things. And yes, that will be individually based. Um, but that but that was the point. It wasn't it's not to say that like helping your neighbor is always going to feel better to everyone versus buying themselves something new. That's that's not necessarily true, but it's to say that there are different things that will create different levels of experience of joy. So it may vary for me to like you guys are you're you're all very musical, right? And artistic, and you have skills like in that arena, whereas I don't at all. And so for you, doing those things creates a kind of joy for you, an internal satisfaction and salience that I don't get from that, from anything musical or artistic, but it's not to say that it's it's not important or whatever, you know. But there are things that I do that to me are very like more warm and fuzzy, and this feels like a higher level joy to me than it would say to you. So I and I feel like when when I when Vernon's talking about top shelf dopamine, that's the experience. It's not that the dopamine itself is any better, and it's not that the experience itself is objectively better, it's simply that you as an individual are going to create in your mind, in your brain chemistry, um, whether or not that experience is very satisfying or not. And it'll vary from person to person. But yes, there will be different levels of what feels good or doesn't feel good.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Yeah, I mean, um the to go back to this wonderful book, you have broken it into four sections. Survive, right? First one, that's a big one. That the first book is pretty much that, right? It's just all about survive. Then it's strive, strive, which is you know, rebuilding your brain. It's all about the rebuild part. Then you will arrive. This is the part I really arrive and thrive are the two sections of the book that I like to cover now. Because um that I feel like is good for anybody. I don't care if you've ever been addicted to anything in your life. Arrive and thrive, those are the those are the ones. I think those are the ones. Did I say it right? Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. So when you arrive, what would you say is the uh what what constitutes arriving? Is it just time of sobriety or is it more than that?

SPEAKER_02 17:18

No, I don't think it's really. I mean, time generally will wind up playing a part, but I don't think it's a definitive piece of it. Uh arriving is is about when you get to the place where you are able to um recognize your identity outside of being an addict, an alcoholic, whatever. So you, you know, during strive, you're working through all of the the through the trauma and you're dealing with, you know, learning therapy and you're learning new skills, and you're trying to be able to learn how to live life on life's terms. Um, when you arrive, you've gotten to the place where that's no longer all you are. You are now this whole person who is well-rounded and not just a recovering addict or alcoholic, but maybe also a wife and a mother and an employee and a you know, neighbor, and um you like X type of music and this type of food, and what like you have you have arrived at the place where you finally know who you are, um, and who you were meant to be, and you start to have goals and dreams beyond just staying sober. That's what arrive is.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

You know, and I would say this can be take away the word sobriety, that could be after you've done a lot of things in your life, fighting for uh buying a house or having a family or um making your parents think you're you've got it made or something, whatever it is, to sort of, you know, a lot of times people spend their whole lives or a big a part of their life striving and then when they and they but they don't get to the arriving. And you gotta that arrival part is is special because something happens there. That's when you you find you want to now you want to find a true purpose. You you want to answer the why. Why am I here? You know, why am I here? What's my my soul's purpose? If you believe in a soul. I mean, I mean it's you know, there are atheists out there, don't believe in the soul, but I mean it doesn't matter. I don't care what you believe. You you still have to get you still have to have meaning. Your life has at the point where you're arriving, I think that's when meaning becomes important. And and that that's where this book, and if you read it, you will understand those aspects of arriving that you can just substitute the addiction for anything, and you could get just the same amount of uh uh useful uh information that will help who whoever you are on whatever path you are. So I think that um what the greatest thing about uh this way you've broken it up is and I don't I don't want to alienate anybody by saying this because they might because people are prejudiced about this stuff, but it is almost say being able to say that what you're talking about is the fruit of doing the 12 steps, because the thing about the 12 steps is they do produce a psychic change. And you could be you know, right? You can be uh an atheist or an agnostic or anything, but if you do those steps, the way they are written out, they produce some sort of psychic change. And we I don't know even how to describe it, how it happened to me. I didn't expect that to happen, I didn't know it was going to happen. And when it happened, I was like, oh, now I I starting to arrive now. Now I now I find I want to do something with my life that has aligned aligned with my purpose. That's when you discover alignment when you arrive. I think that's a key element of arriving. Because then your goal now is to align yourself with a purpose, to align yourself with whatever life is calling you to do. And that's what this is so I'm I know I'm just being real praising. What's the question, Vernon? We ask a damn question. I guess my question is is what do you think about that? Your own writing, could is that close to what you're thinking, what you're doing?

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Yeah, so here's here's what I think about when I when I was kind of creating this like sections, what I picture was um there's this sort of and at the risk of being like woo-woo, right? Let's imagine there's like this kind of like glowing embodiment of me. I see myself as this ghostly figure, and that is like that's me realized. Living in my purpose and happy and money and kids and whatever, like my goals in life. That's me, and I can see me. And during the survive stage, I'm I'm only able to really like limp towards that person. And she's walking, she's continuing to move forward, right? Because she's just the future me moving forward. And I'm limping towards that. And then during the strive stage, my body starts to kind of heal a little bit and I'm able to pick up the pace and I'm able to kind of start catching up. And the arrive phase is when I step into that body, when I step into that ghostly version of myself, and I have arrived at who I'm supposed to be. Right. And now I'm, yeah, so I'm in alignment with all of the things that I was meant for. Um, and so that's the arrival stage.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Yeah. And I love, and I love when you get into the final finals book. Thrive. Thrive, that it's almost like the I I don't want I'm sorry if I'm doing this, but it popped in my brain. I'm gonna do it. It was almost like Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John four gospels. It's uh it's almost like that. But um but it but the th but I don't think you meant it to be that, but it it's certainly a nice serendipitous comparison. But um the last one seems to be the you know, like the the John one, which is really uh extremely spiritual and but grounded. Like you talk a lot about hey, you've arrived, you know you're here to thrive, right? What what it what you're gonna have shit happen, right? It ain't gonna be perfect. So you gotta be ready to handle all that at the same time as arriving. You you get you got your purpose now, but it doesn't mean it's gonna be perfect. You know, life isn't perfect, life is life is life, you know. Um but I think we're when we get to that point of arriving and you're aligned with your purpose and you've done all that work, that's self-care, and you got a good habit of meditating, all the things you need to do, eating proteins, whatever it is, covering all the bases. And you're doing all that. Well, you know, when you encounter that stuff in that next stage. I mean, I think you've equipped us really with that last book. Really, great.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Well, I mean, so we're I was talking earlier about how, like, when you know, during survive and strive, you're kind of like trying to chase this ideal version of yourself. And when you arrive, you arrive into that person and you sort of embody a more um aligned and realized version of yourself. But then the question becomes, okay, but now what? And so Thrive is really about taking that alignment and like moving forward into the most optimized version. So you go from from the most aligned, like this is who I am, this is who I'm meant to be, to and and I love myself as I am, but how do I optimize what I've been given? And so, you know, it's stepping into the place of really expanding beyond just like existing. And I think not everybody gets to the thrive stage. I think some people are happy at arrive, and um it's not a criticism, that's fine. You know, if you've arrived and you're aligned self and you feel like I'm I'm good, that's okay. But I think that a lot of people want more. And so it's about how do I really understand things like my hormones, my physical body, muscular development, improving my cognition, making my brain better faster, decreasing the chances that I'll get dementia and other debilitating diseases as I continue to age. So it's not really about like stopping the aging process. Obviously, you can't do that, but it's really more about like the quality of life going forward and like how to really make that the best possible version so that you have the best quality going forward.

Redwood Thriving And Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_01 26:19

I love it. I love it. You know, I I'm I've been using the comparison to redwood redwoods. I love the metaphor of how redwoods exist. Do you know that they that some of the redwoods are the oldest known you know creatures on the earth, singular creatures? 35,000 3,500 years is one that's that's alive right now. And um it they're a unique organism. They don't their roots go down only eight feet, but they go out 30 feet from themselves and they intertwine with each other. So they communicate uh messages, they communicate health, they communicate nutrients, they communicate warnings, they communicate all kinds of stuff, and they literally hold each other up physically by the roots. It's an amazing uh metaphor for what thriving sort of is what I think the interdependent uh example that they show in nature is what thriving is. And you think about it, that redwood grows so tall and grows up so high that the one that keeps growing reaches higher, I guess brings more nutrients down to the rest of the uh the the growth. And you know what is really blows my mind when the redwood dies when it goes into the ground, a ring of seedlings emerge around it and grow. They call them fairy circles. And that if you there are plenty of these in redwood groves, you can see them. It's a circle of trees around a stump, a dead stump. It's the most beautiful, amazing natural example of something so sublime. I mean, I am just barely plum learning about it. I'm still learning from it. But I mean, this thing about thriving, this is what it reminds me of. Because that when we're all thriving together, I mean, more of us thrive, and we're all reaching for that higher self, reaching for living, living the purpose that we feel we we have, that we're aligning ourselves with. We are aligned with when we arrive, right? We're aligned at that point. So once you're aligned, I think, I think most people, their tendency is to be like a redwood to grow, grow taller. Maybe they're gonna just support the other ones, that's good enough. I don't I don't see anything wrong with that, you know, because we're each holding each other up after all. So, I mean, um, this is my part, this is your episode, and I just want to say your uh your book has inspired me so much. Like I went back and rewrote that whole thing about thriving, and I actually have a song I'm based on it. So you have helped you have inspired a song, and I'm really yeah, I'm gonna send it to you when it's done. But it's it's freaky. This this the whole concept of thriving. Oh my gosh, it's just wonderful. And I think the more people realize that's the goal of sobriety. That's the goal, not just of sobriety, but of following these tenets that people use to get sober. But you can use it for anything, you can just use it for life. You know, that would be the I think that's the deal, right? Right there. When I when I first got sober, I wanted to share the 12-step with everybody. And it was like, oh, I don't even drink, but yeah, but you should do the 12 steps. That's how I was about it. But um, you know, wouldn't you say that's it? But anyway, thank you so much, Nicole, for such an amazing, uh, inspiring podcast. The whole one. What would you what was your final statement that we want to leave our listeners to? This just remember, this is the second episode. You're closing the second episode right now. They've heard everything from the first from the first strive and uh from from survive to strive, not arrive and now thrive. How you want to leave them now after having all this, besides, of course, go out and buy the book. Yeah, that's I'll leave them with that. But what were you saying?

SPEAKER_02 30:15

I I mean, I really I think it's just uh a matter of like making a decision about who you are and what kind of life you want. And I and again, I don't that's not just for people in recovery. I mean, that's for everybody. I think people in recovery do it a little better um because they have had a foundation of desperation, right? So I think that we do it a little bit stronger, better, harder. Maybe that's also because we're addicts and that's part of our nature to go full force. But I um but I think anybody has the ability and the opportunity to like look at their current life and say, how much better could I make this? And what do I need to do to get there? And that's really what reconstructing is about.

How To Contact And Subscribe

SPEAKER_01 31:07

I love it. Well, thank you so much, Nicole, for this incredible journey through reconstruction. After we already did the deconstruction, now we're reconstructing, and I think it's what a positive note to leave everybody with and feature this as a beginning of a lot of episodes we're gonna stream we're gonna stream having to do with people going through recovery and coming to the end of thriving. So thanks again for joining us, and thank you, Vernon, for being co-host, and thank you again, everybody, for joining us on Out of the Blue the Podcast. Thanks for having me, Vernon. You're welcome. Out of the Blue the Podcast, hosted by me, Vernon West. Co-hosted by Vernon West the Third, edited by Joe Gallo. Music and logo by Vernon West III. Have an out of the blue story of your own you'd like to share? Reach us at info at out of the blue hyphen the podcast.org. Subscribe to out of the blue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And on our website, out of the blue hyphen the podcast.org.