Groove And Gratitude with Steve Thoma (Part 2)

We pick up part two of our conversation with Steve Thoma and get honest about what happens when a musician finally lands the dream gig and decides it is time to “relax” with alcohol and drugs. Steve traces the arc from steady ambition to “using with great purpose,” and why the post-show rush can become the most seductive drug of all.

We also get into the nuts and bolts of recovery in the real world: getting sober while still surrounded by touring life, the anxiety of being searched, and the quiet code of “Friend of Bill.” Steve talks about how sponsorship, meetings, and service keep people grounded. The spiritual side comes up too, including the tension many feel around higher power and how some people choose to stay anyway and keep moving forward.

Steve Thoma concludes the episode with a message that applies to both recovery and artistry: dreams are not granted by hype or competition, they are earned through preparation, listening, and practice.

Transcript

Family Loss And Choosing Sobriety

SPEAKER_01 0:23

And now part two of our conversation with Steve Toma. Now you get you're doing this stuff in nineteen you're 22, 23, right? Right. You know, for me, um I was I I I I resonated when you were telling me how you were focused on being sober, you didn't want none of that. You've heard all the horror stories. As did I. Not to mention I saw my dad who died from alcohol.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Yeah, my grandfather died from alcoholism when I was 16. When I went on that tour, he thought his job with me was done. That was his alcoholic thinking. When he saw me conduct that that were not conduct, but lead that band and do that show, the young Americans. We did a we did a preview show in LA for all the parents of people in LA. And he the first time he ever shook my hand, and he said, You really look like you're comfortable at doing that. And I go, Yeah, I really dig it, you know. And he thought he was done. And he literally drank himself to death when I went on the road.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Wow. Wow. So I mean, for my in my story, I mean, uh, I'm really grateful for where I am now, but it took it took a good seven years of my life dealing with uh, I guess was uh self-medicating, you know. That's what I went through. When did you finally come to the point where you you've discovered a better way with as far as uh sobriety and getting the whole thing?

Dream Gigs And Purposeful Using

SPEAKER_02 1:44

I was, you know, I was for all intent, I was like a normie once-in-a-while drinker, I hit off a joint which I never cared for. I remember trying cocaine when I was about 17. I didn't really know what the big deal was. Um, and I stayed away from that stuff. I I I don't remember my first drink. It wasn't an event. I do not have that. I hear a lot of people in recovery talk about they they have a big story about their first drink, what it did for them, what it did to them. I don't have that experience. I did not drink or drug to reduce my anxiety or my fears. I was I was um I'm ready to rock. I'm ready to go. I was not fearful. Sometimes to my demise, I should have been a little bit wiser and more mature and fearful of certain things. But I was just I was just moving forward, man. And all these gigs I was doing, and I was a busy guy. Um as as I got kept kind of rising in the ladder of my own ambition of like what I wanted to do is started making records, which that the Doc gig led to the gig with Andy Gibb, which led to the gig with Tom Jones, which led to the gig with Doc Severinson. Actually, Andy Gibb led to Doc Severinson because it Andy's bass player was Glenn Fry's bass player. Bry Garophilos' name, brilliant bass player, great singer, soulful dude. And uh the minute I I became Andy's musical director, after the first half hour rehearsal, we took a break, and he came over and he goes, I'm gonna get you in Glenn Fry's band. Oh no, he goes, How do you like the Eagles? I go, I love the Eagles. I go, I especially, you know, love their stuff that's more RB. Like they became an RB band because Glenn's from Detroit, where I'm from. Anyway, he wound up introducing me or told Glenn about me, and three months later, Glenn was going on tour and I got that call. And that was the ultimate gig for me. That's exactly what I'd been wanting to get to. I was 28 years old at the time, and that's when I started drinking and using with great purpose because I figured this is right where I've been working forward since I was 19 and sat down and wrote where I wanted to be. My goal was to have a gold record on my wall by the time I was 30. That was my goal. Here I am, not only in Glenn's band, but now I'm getting the chance to write with him, and and then I wind up getting the chance to kind of be the musical director for him and his band because he was having some marital issues, and we were practicing for a tour, rehearsing with a couple of new members for a tour in Japan. He called me from a learjet, which this was 1986, so it was probably like a$300 phone call. He said, I gotta go to Aspen and try to save my marriage. I need you to get this band whipped into shape for Japan. I'm like, okay. So he left for five days and I rehearsed the band. He came back for one rehearsal and we went to Japan. So here I am doing exactly what I always dreamed of doing in a band with a contemporary artist who was a great songwriter. I'm writing songs with him for the for the new album, and I'm going on tour with him, and we're becoming fast friends. And I thought, now I can relax. Give me some of that cocaine.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Yep. Let your card down right there.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

And at first it was a lot of fun, and it was part fun to be part of that what I call the inner circle.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

You know, it had to be. It had to be.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

Yeah, it was. I mean, to me, when I I don't want to tell this story, I'm just gonna give you one highlight of it. Uh a one-ounce bag of cocaine was discovered one evening because we were out of drugs, and it was one of the first meetings I had with that group, and I saw that bag of cocaine. I'd never seen that much cocaine.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

That's a hell of a hell of a lot of cocaine.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

And I'm at this and the band meeting with this artist I've admired for 20 years, and I'm I'm in his band now. And fireworks went off for me. Like, you are right where you want to be. Life is good.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

And that's the thing about the thing about cocaine is it sort of like prolongs that buzz in a way. You think it's gonna.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Yeah. For sure. That's that was the appeal to me. Like, we had a very clean work ethic when it came to Glenn's band. He would say, if you need to have a glass of wine or one beer before the show, great, to like kind of take the edge off. But nobody gets loaded for the gig. And that band was tight. And Glenn was a very good band leader. He was very precise in his own execution, and he and he knew exactly what he wanted. And he said, I want you to play the record until unless God's hand reaches down and tells you tells you to play something different.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Then you better still think about it. So he he gave very little room for improvisation, but there is uh an art and a craft to playing the record really cleanly and but still playing it with feeling.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Yeah, making it your own. Yeah, feeling it. Yeah.

Early Recovery And Airport Fear

SPEAKER_02 6:46

So when I got to the when I was at a sound check one day, or no, at a rehearsal, and I was playing around this song that I was trying to figure out. Not necessarily what you would think of as a Glenn Fry song, but he heard that and he loved it. And he said, What is that? I go, it's something I'm trying to figure out, trying to finish. And so we were we were in the midst of a lot of commitments we had to fulfill. He goes, Don't forget that. I want to I want to finish that song with you. And about a week, or whenever we did got done what we had to do a couple weeks, he sent me a ticket to Aspen. I flew to Aspen where he was living, and I spent three days writing songs with him. Glenn was in a weird place, and this particular song is called It's Your Life. He wrote the lyrics. I did not have a hand in that. I wrote the melody and the chords, and uh I did the orchestration and I did the arrangement on a little four-track. I forget what they call it, they had some name for it. Anyway, I had an anvil briefcase and it was set up for that player, a little portable speaker, and a microphone, and a direct box. And um I brought that to Aspen with me. I got I got stopped by the whatever the airport security was because I was in a leather jacket. I looked like a rock and roll dude, I look like a cocaine dealer, is what happened. So, anyway, so yeah, so this actually all ties in. So I had had I had gotten clean and sober in June of 1986. I I had this brief period of recovery of 15 months, where I was going to meetings, I had a sponsor, but my sponsor was doing movies, he was an actor, and um I was six weeks or two weeks after I got sober, I went back on the road with Glenn Fry, the guy that I actually loved getting high with. I mean, that was like where I became a real drug addict on in that band. And um and I went up to Aspen to write with Glenn during my that first sobriety. I got sober in June, and in September is when I flew to Aspen, and I brought this leather jacket because Glenn said, Hey, bring a jacket because it's getting cool at night. This was like the middle of September, which is in LA it's like 110 in September, but in Aspen it's starting to get fall. So I brought this leather jacket and I get I get stopped by a security guy who's a plain clothes guy, and he says, Uh, where are you going? I said, Uh can I see your ticket? I'm like, Okay, give my ticket. Aspen. LA to Aspen, Aspen to LA, and I'm only going to be there for three days.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Uh-oh. That's a red flag.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Uh, okay, I need to, I need to, we need to go into a private room and I need to inspect your briefcase. What do you got in there? I said I said, I have recording equipment.

unknown 9:31

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

He goes, Is it yours? I go, yeah, it's mine. I'm going there. I'm going to Aspen to write with one of my songwriting partners. And he takes me into this room and he he uh opens up the brief, has me open the briefcase and you know he's pulls everything out to see if there's any you know false bottoms and all that shit. Nothing in there but you know what I mentioned you guys is in there. And he takes asked me to take my jacket off, and I freaking panicked. Oh boy, because I remember this particular jacket, it was my favorite leather jacket, and it had a fur lining that you could zip in and out. And I used to wear it in Aspen when it was the dead of winter, and it was a great jacket. Yeah, but the fur lining was out of it, but I knew there was a little hole in the right pocket, and I thought, I hope a bindle or a vial didn't drop down through that hole that I lost track of because I had been sober only about three months at the time. But the last time I wore that jacket, I was getting loaded.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Yeah.

Friend Of Bill And Anonymity

SPEAKER_02 10:32

So I had a little panic. I don't think it showed because the guy wasn't didn't suspect, but he he went through that whole jacket and felt every square inch of it. I go, Can I ask you why you stopped me? And he goes, Well, you you know, you're only here for three days. You matched the description of a known cocaine uh trafficker trafficker, yeah. Yeah, and uh so we you know we we gotta stop everybody that you know description. Yeah, so anyway, he was very respectful, but I definitely was under under the gun there.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

That reminds me of one thing that happened to me. We were going to New York uh to Hit Factory to do some work recording, and he let me I he gave me the masters to take. And they were there they were three two and a half inch ones, they weren't even uh mixed out or anything, they were just the masters. And I'm taking them to the airport and they wanted to put them through uh uh a detector or something. And I'm and I'm at the time uh uh on Peruvian Flake. So I am I am uh omniscient. And I'm saying, you cannot uh possibly do that to these tapes. That's my life on these tapes that will be erased, you know. I took a little fit, wasn't good, got a lot of attention, and then we we did eventually get through and make it to the get on the plane, and everything was fine, but boy, I was stupid, man. I was a dummy. But uh it reminds me of that airport thing you went through. I mean, on but you were much you were sober, at least that you had that going on. Yeah, right. You didn't freak out.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

I've only been in I've only been searched since I got sober.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

That's wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

It happened two or three other times on the Rover Fleet with Mac, which was hilarious because I'm like the cleanest guy around. And I'm the one one night, one time we were coming back from uh Amsterdam.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Oh boy, Amsterdam, where they were in Detroit.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

And I was and I was saying I was sitting with Mick on the plane, so we got off the plane together, and Mick used to wear patchouli oil for cologne. And the the fucking dogs, you know, the airport dogs, the drug symphony dogs, that triggers marijuana to them.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

It does, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:38

So they pulled Mick out of the line, and I'm right next to him, you know. He's 6'6, I'm 5'6. So they pulled you know, Mutt and Jeff out of the line, and they went through all our stuff. And the guy goes, Have you ever been inspected before? I go, Yeah, I have. And he goes, Where? And I said, uh, in Aspen, and he goes, Oh any other times? I go, No, not so far, but I go, it's really kind of ironic. I said, I've been clean and sober since you know September of 1989, and I've only been searched since I got clean and sober. And he goes, Are you a friend of Bill's?

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 13:09

I go, yeah, and he goes, I got four years, closes my shit up, says, Okay, you're free to go.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Wow, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

So I guess I was convincing, and I but I wasn't, I was telling the truth.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

For anybody who doesn't know a friend of Bill, Bill means a friend of Bill Wilson. The uh the uh my son probably doesn't know this, but he's the um one of the co-founders. Yes, one of the co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. And that's a code when you when you're flying. I used to do that a lot. If I thought somebody was a friend of Bill, I would just say, Are you a friend of Bill? You know, Bill. Right. If they they knew right away if they were.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

I feel like I'm not supposed to know this. No, no, it no, you are supposed to. This is okay, it's not part of the anonymous anonymity.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

You know, I the anonymity is only as long as somebody is alive. Like, my job is to protect your anonymity at any cost. Like, if somebody were to ask me, hey, how do you know Vernon West, I would say, Oh, we have a we discover we have a bunch of mutual friends. Nobody has ever asked me a second question to that. They're like, Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

And I mean, I could also say, yeah, we, you know, uh, what friends do you have? Oh, we're we're both musicians. That's all I would have to say. But if they ask me about somebody that's getting loaded that is struggling, I would not say, Oh, yeah, they're really having a hard time with drugs right now. It's like that's not my place. But mentioning Bill Wilson or Bob uh um Smith, though that that was their real names, Bill Wilson and Bob Smith. They've been gone a long time, and it's it's considered appropriate to mention that they were sober when they were alive.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Yeah, they they definitely great. I I just sent for the 12 and 12, so um right.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

I mean, Betty Ford really brought Alcoholics Anonymous out of the closet once and for all. It it had been slowly coming out of the closet over six decades. But when Betty Ford claimed uh that she got sober through Alcoholics Anonymous, um that changed everything. It it it finally was recognized as a legit treatable disorder. I won't say it's a disease, it's definitely a disorder. But people get to it through different, you know. Like I said, I never drank or drugged to uh to settle my fear or my anxiety. Most of the guys I've sponsored uh that's their story, you know, and they they self-medicated.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

I identify with that because neither did I. And I when I know I would when I played a show, I didn't want anything. I wanted to be straight and enjoy it every minute of it. I didn't need to, I was so nervous, let me have a drink. I never felt that way. It didn't didn't do that for me. Um, but I it was it was to extend the high of the show. That's what it ended up being for me.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Yeah, that's me too. I try to explain that to people. Why did you get high? Well, that feeling when you walk off stage, where the most important thing is the band was rocking, the shit was proven, everybody was listening to each other, everybody was reacting to each other, and the audience that's where you grab the audience when they feel that energy and they they observe that that that changes the communication.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

It's wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

When all of that works, it's there's no better high, as you guys both know. No better, and I want this to last as long as possible. And I and I don't know if it's a delusion, but for a long time, that delusion worked for me. Drinking and drugging extended that high, and I loved that feeling. And I loved there's always a party after the show. I don't care where you're gigging, there's somebody who wants to have a party with the band after the show.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Always. I never got home until uh sometimes never, you know. It's like it would go till the next day, you know.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Oh, yeah. My first wife wondered who is this guy? I mean, I was like super responsible and accountable and bought a house at 26. Um, you know, a musician buying a house at 26, that's unheard of in LA. Nobody, it's impossible to find work here.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

So where are we going now with your you know, you've let's keep going on this career, and when you find you got your second marriage, when was that? How's that?

SPEAKER_02 17:20

Well, um the what happened in the first marriage was I was that guy coming home at seven o'clock in the morning, and I thought if I got home before seven before my wife got up to go to work, she wouldn't know I was out all night.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Right. I do that one. Genius.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

Genius that I am.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Finally, one day she goes, I don't even know who you are. I don't, what's all this shit, you know, staying out all night, and you've got to go to the party. And on the nights when you're not playing, you're at one of the clubs that you play at. I said, That's all PR and um, you know, hanging out with the crowd, and you know, our band has brought a lot of attention to these clubs, and I'm, you know, it's nice being the big fish in the little pond. And but really why I was going there was to get loaded.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Yeah. Well, you come up with all kinds of stories to do it.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

It's just bullshit. I should have been home writing songs in my studio. So anyway.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Everything happens for a reason, Steve. I really do think so. You know, you will learn.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Well, I think I don't agree with that. I think everything happens.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

That's right. All right, all right, all right, all right. I'll say that. I'll go with you on that. But I feel like it's when they happen and you go with it, so to speak. Um for some reason it has everything worked out to be here where we are now, is what I mean, I guess. Um the the the stuff that I've been through has become really the the the foundation for helping another person, you know, because I've been through that stuff. So once you've been there, you can turn that stuff into gold. You know, it's become something that's useful. But um, do I say do I think it was for a reason? Do I wish it could have been different? You better believe it. Um but I think that um I'd be lying if I said otherwise, you know. I that's the hardest thing about dealing with that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Is that well the one of the problems for me was, you know, I went to cat as you guys know already, I went to Catholic school for 12 years and I was an altar boy and I did all the things a good Catholic is supposed to do.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

So was I.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

But I never felt a spiritual connection. I always wanted it. And I come into AA, and there, you know, when I came into AA, when you came into AA, there was a lot of there was a whole lot of God talk.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

And it was, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

You know, I was told not to worry about it. One of the one of the guys I was in treatment with um told me, I asked him why he kept coming back, because this guy was relapsing for like 20 years. I said, Well, you keep coming back and life gets good, and then you go out again. I go, why do you keep coming back? He goes, Well, the reason I go out is because you know, my life gets really good and I drift away from meetings and I don't call my sponsor. And and one night, you know, it eventually it sounds like a good idea to get loaded again. And his drug of choice was heroin. He loved heroin and drinking wine. So I said, But why do you keep coming back? And he goes, Well, the reason I disappear is because the God thing really bugs me. You know, he was 14 years old when he stole his stepfather's car and ran away from home. And the reason he ran away from home is because his stepfather would get drunk and beat up his mom and him. He was a violent drunk, and the only way he could get away from it was stealing the guy's car and leaving. And at that time, they didn't have any juvenile facilities. So this 14-year-old kid got thrown into prison with the adults. This was in the in the late 50s. So you can imagine what happened to that 14-year-old kid with pretty blue eyes.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Oh my god, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

So I said, Why do you keep coming back? He goes, Well, I got a problem with the God thing. And I said, But I keep coming back because they told me when I've shared this with other people, they said, Well, just believe that we believe.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

I did, I heard the same thing. That rings so many bells. That was what I heard when I first came in, came back. Came in, actually. I had been in I had been in out a few times.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Well, I think, I mean, uh, yeah, I think that's part of most people's story. Um, I I came in once and had a two-year relapse, and I knew the night I got loaded the first night that it was a huge mistake. And I started thinking about calling Brian the minute I got home, and I need I knew it was a mistake, and all the stuff that I had heard in meetings that I didn't relate to all of a sudden made sense to me. But I didn't realize the power of alcoholism and addiction in me, and I had two more nights on the road after that first night I went out, and I got hammered all three nights, and I never drank like that before. So when they say we have a progressive disease, they're not kidding, I can tell you exactly that my disease was at about 40% when I started my relapse, and it went to like 200% during my two-year relapse. So it progresses whether you're sober or not.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

It really truly does.

Desperation Builds A Zoom Meeting

SPEAKER_02 21:45

That's that's the thing that anybody that's ever had a problem with God has been told well, just think of uh the gift of desperation, think of the good orderly direction you're getting. Exactly. Think of the group of drunks as your higher power. Just believe that we believe. And I did all that shit for over 30 years. I call it shit because it's shit for me. If you've got a higher power that you're connected with, right on. I am all in for you on that. I I'm saying stick with what whatever works for you. That's the thing about recovery. Everybody gets to wear their recovery a little differently.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

When I started the Rule 62 meeting, which you're familiar with, uh which is, I think, the best meeting in I've ever been to, when I've been to thousands. Really is one of the it is the best one, really. And I know and I know why. It hit me today, actually, when there was a reading at that particular meeting that told me that the beginning or the starter of that particular meeting, which is you, I really believe that that was where it started with that your solid understanding. And it was so I just said that's the real I believe in that. I actually believe that. Um I don't know, I'm gonna say this crazy thing that I used when I was when I was into cannabis, I used to think that whoever was growing it affected the weed. And if you had a good grower, the weed would have a good gentle high. Right? I feel that way about AA meetings. Who started that meeting has a whole big giant effect on the results of what that meeting is doing. And that meeting, for my money, is so uh precious, it really is.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Well, I'm glad you're uh getting a lot out of it. I mean, that meeting started one thing started that meeting desperation. And had a hernia operation on March 16th, and that's the day they shut everything down in LA. All the churches were shut down, there was no public gatherings.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Yep. And I thought March 16th.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Three years, three days.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Don't go anywhere. March 16th, just to parallel this story here. I was in the hospital and I had been told In 2020? Absolutely, when the pandemic started.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

Okay, that's 2020, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Yeah, March 16th, I was remember when I was on the radio. Oh wow, and my wife said, This is bad, honey, yeah, yeah. And the next week later, they she was told she couldn't come visit me. And I so I stayed there till September.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Yeah. And it was like that's what that's when I beat leukemia. And that's when I started to really I was uh Billy was calling me all the when I was in the hospital. And I started to really what I was doing, and I know it was because uh what was instilled in me from AA was being of service. And I knew that when I helped people, I got out of myself, and I could I was in pain. I was in a lot of not good place, you know. I was in a hospital bed 24 hours, but um that's all that's just so bizarre that we have that connection. And we're so parallel that you were doing that thing with the operation. I'm sitting in the hospital, we're both going through some sort of medical thing, you know what I mean? However extreme or whatever. Go ahead now, finish your random.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

I'm I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

I know my end. I want to hear your random.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

No, I and I want to know more more about both of your stories. Um, so I'm in I'm in in this onagurney waiting, you know, for the anesthesiologist to come back. He already told me what he was gonna be doing, and all of a sudden there's a huddle at the hospital in the ER or in the surgery, not the ER, the surgery uh suite. And um he's I hear them talking to yeah, we're not gonna be doing any procedures today. And I'm like, what the fuck? So there were seven procedures scheduled for that day. Three canceled by the insurance companies because they were freaked out about COVID, and three were canceled by the patients. And I'm like, they're like, are you sure you I'm like, I'm in. Let's get rid of this problem. So they operated on me, and it as it turns out, I had a defect, a birth defect in my stomach wall, and they were able to put extra mesh there because it could have ruptured at any point in my life, and I could have bled to death and not even known I was bleeding until it was too late.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Yep, that's how that is.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

So you can die from internal bleeding, you don't even know that you have it, you know what I mean? So I it was just a really freaky, fortunate circumstance. So anyway, I have three days of discomfort recovering at home, and and I'm like, we gotta have a meeting. And I had just had a couple of Zoom meet uh meetings on Zoom. I didn't know what Zoom was prior to that. I don't I just learned about it a couple weeks prior to that. And I'm like, I bet you could do an AA meeting on Zoom. And um, so I got four or five guys to agree to come to the meeting, and within 30 days, there was like 40 guys there every day, and then and then it just grew from there, and people from all over the world now. But that was the thing that started that meeting was desperation. I I did have a very what's weird is that for about two years I've been telling my wife, you know, I really miss going to morning meetings because that's where I got sober.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

And when we had our first daughter in 2000, I stopped going to morning meetings because I was I would get you know get up with her in the morning, and I and as they and then we had another daughter five years later, I would pack their, I would make them breakfast, they would eat their breakfast in the kitchen with me while I packed their lunches, and I would take them to school. And they were never in the same school except for one year, because they're five years apart. So I'd take them to their two schools and drop them off, and I am so grateful I had that time with them uh because I hardly see them now. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Yep, I do know what you mean.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

I would I got that time, and you know, they were real they'd always get real chatty in the car. They're never chatty after school, they're chatty on the way to school. Like if I picked them up, my wife usually picked them up, but if I picked them up, like, how was school? Fine. What happened today? Nothing. Yeah, I mean, they just they were out of energy, right? But in the morning they were raring to go, so that's when I find everything out. So, and I liked having that conduit wide open.

Dreams Need Work Not TV Hype

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Let's think about one thing we can say before I I think you said a lot of great things we could end with, but just what would you say if you're gonna say end this episode and say something about what you say you sum it all up? What would you say?

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Well, you know, there's been a lot of talk with shows like uh America's Got Talent and The Voice and all these competition shows. And it kind of reminds me of organized religion. They're giving all these people kind of some false hope when they tell them, You got to believe in your dreams. Yes, you have to believe in your dreams, but preparation and execution is everything. And I don't think they're really and you guys know how it is, these entertainers that are on these shows are under such a huge microscope. They don't really talk about the amount of time and training and experience goes into them being good enough to do that and not win. Right? Right because there's some immensely talented people on there. There's a lot of people on there that I call karaoke singers.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Me too.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

They'd impress everybody at a karaoke night, but they're not artists, they're not Aretha Franklin, they're not Ray Charles, they're not Corinne Bailey Ray, they're not um, they're not Adele.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

D'Angelo, rest in peace.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Right, yeah. Um legendary artist, they're not Quincy Jones. I mean, um, but I think like to me, whatever I've done, like my nickname, uh oh, I didn't even know it was on, all in. That's my I'm a terrible poker player. Don't ever play if I ever get invited, I just show up with a hundred-dollar bill, throw it in the pot, and then I cook for everybody. I don't play poker. Here's my money, I suck at it, but I'm all in, I'm here. So I'm like that with everything I do, I am all in, and my job, and and what people have recognized is they said you play with authority. And you don't play with authority unless you do the footwork and learn and learn how to listen. I know where I'm supposed to play, and I know where I'm not supposed to play. And life is like that. You gotta know, like Kenny Rogers saying, you gotta know when to hold them, you gotta know when to fold them. So there's so much great talent out there to study. And you know, when I was a kid, you know what I wanted more than anything? A set of encyclopedias. And we all have it right here. No matter what you want to learn, it's here.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Right. Verna, do you have a question before we say bye?

SPEAKER_03 30:31

I mean, I am I'm honored to, you know, have this conversation with you. And I feel very much um I have a different story. I was unfortunately, I think, not as optimistic as when I was young. I did things to quell anxieties, kind of the opposite. But I think that I am now beginning on this journey of that like optimistic, like if you if you really truly love this thing that you do, take all these opportunities. And I s and I'm and I'm grateful because I don't think the timeline how it unfolds, it's gonna be unique for everyone. But what I've learned is that like you still will benefit from that mindset regardless of when that mindset dawns on you. And um side note, you know, it's so I would I still would like love to like pick your brain about like all these experiences, like working in these like intense uh high-stakes, televised, high high professional settings, because I got to play the Greek theater as on drums once, and I felt like I was in line for a roller coaster. It was like this intense, like and that truly, I agree, is the is like the drug that I am chasing. Yeah, yeah. You know, and so so I mean, I feel like there's you there's just so much more to know about this world, but you know, like not really a question, obviously, just a reflection.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Well, no, I'm interested to know your journey because you know, here's the thing. I learned something valuable from Glenn when I was in Aspen. We went out to dinner and there was a band playing, and we finished dinner, and the band was, you know, they were okay. Um, and I go, hey, let's go hear some music. You know, there where is there any music here? And he goes, Yeah, it all sucks. I go, what? You can't all suck. And he goes, No, it all sucks. I go, okay, snobber. Okay, Mr. Snob, what do you mean it all sucks? He goes, Toma, he goes, these guys don't know what they don't know. And what you don't know is that you're not like them, you're you're uh it's a different thing for you. You have an understanding that very few people get. And I think that's that was like the ultimate compliment from him because he made some amazing records at that point already as an eagle, and but it taught me something very valuable. And even though I may have been a very the caliber musician ship that he respected, there's a whole ton of shit that I didn't know what I didn't know. And through my recovery program, our recovery program, I've figured out a lot of what I don't know, even though I've accomplished a lot, and it's nice to have the gold records and the accolades and awards and all that. But as a human, there's still stuff that I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what I don't know. I'm still learning.

SPEAKER_03 33:38

Right. And the more you know, the more you know you don't know.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

You don't know. Like my first sponsor at five years of sobriety got up to take a cake, and I went to give him a cake that night, and and he and he said, My name's Brian, and I'm an alcoholic and a drug addict, and I don't know anything. And I'm looking up at this guy who I adore, and I'm like, dude, you know everything. You're the you're the man. And he explained how he realized now at five years, barely scratch the surface. And I and I've never forgotten that. And that at 36 years of continuous cleanance over time, I feel like I'm still scratching the surface.

SPEAKER_03 34:15

And well, and I'll say, in music, I have certain things that people, you know, tell me I'm good at, certain things I believe in myself about, but it is like this process of like constantly like trying not to compare, trying not to talk down to yourself the more you grow, and the better you get, the more those voices kind of come in because of that thing, because you're all of a sudden even more aware of that final five percent of like skill or professionalism or work ethic that is like the hardest to get. It's just so it's you know, I don't know. It's um a never-ending process.

Practice Brings The Chops Back

SPEAKER_02 35:07

That's it. I mean, it's like I I I had to what prompted me to even start playing again recently was two years ago when I played Christmas carols with my family. And I sucked. No, they didn't know that I sucked, but I knew my chops were gone. I mean, I could I could sit here right now and play Christmas carols from memory, and it's not gonna be up to par with how I want to play. But that made me realize, hey, you know, do you want to still have this skill? Because you don't have it right now, and you did it for 60 years of your life, and it's gone. So what are you gonna do about it? So it took me almost a year to say, oh, I guess it's time to sit down and practice. So I sat down and started practicing again, and the other thing I started doing was if I heard a song on the radio or it came to mind, I immediately downloaded, paid for the sheet music because I can I can sight read it much quicker than I can figure it out. And I play now, I'm playing all these songs that I've loved for decades but never learned. And my chops are back up and I'm back at the peak of my powers, and but I know there's still more that I can get better because I'm I'm just back to almost where I was at the peak of my professional life. And now I'm starting, going to be starting this new online education music thing, and I didn't know I was playing piano again, other than my soul needed it. And now I realize there's an opportunity that's been presented to me that oh, I'm glad my chops are in shape. I guess the theme is practice, practice, practice.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Yes. Like that with like the guy that pulled over in the that's how you get to Carnegie Hall.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

That's the huge that's the punchline. The question, yeah. The guy pulls over how do I give me direction to how do I get to get to Carnegie Hall?

SPEAKER_02 36:53

Practice, practice, practice.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

So we're gonna leave it right there. This has been an amazing time together, and uh, I know we're gonna be doing more of them. And um I I think there's gonna be a lot of other things coming up in this in this world of Steve Toma and well, combined with Vernon and Vernon and Out of the Blue. I just feel something's something's a thought. You know, the universe brought us together for a reason, and so we're gonna find that out. Like maybe to change the world. Was that something you said today? I loved it. That was great. The reading from today.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Well, it's usually one guy that one guy, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:28

It really does, you know, everything in this world.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

It was we have one guy right now that's not changing things in a good way, but you know, we we need we need a combatant here to we don't waste our time with politics on this show. No, I know, I understand. I'm just saying, but one guy can like disrupt things like in an amazing way, and one guy can create new stuff that's like if are you up to Jacob Collier?

SPEAKER_03 37:48

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

When I hear him, I'm like, why am I even playing?

SPEAKER_03 37:53

Yeah, oh my god. No, he's an example of a person that is not only so humble and like clearly in it for the love of the craft, but like so deathly talented.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

He's freaky, freaky genius, talented, like some other planet shit.

SPEAKER_03 38:11

And he'll get his whole shows to be doing like these like four or five-part harmonies, and it's just this beautiful, like yeah, he's he's definitely a connected experience. Yeah, he's he's a special cat for sure.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

I'll be I'll be talking to Steve, and we'll definitely be seeing you again on out of the blue. Hey everybody, thanks for joining us here with Steve Tomer and Vernon the Third. And we really hope you'll join us again because this is uh rock and roll, man. This is rocking. This is how rocking it's all been. Keep it simple. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Keep it simple, stupid.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

All right, see you later, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

Even you smart guys, keep it simple.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

Out of the blue, the podcast, hosted by me, Vernon West. Co-hosted by Vernon West III, edited by Joe Gallo. Music and logo by Vernon West the Third. Have an out-of-the-blue story of your own you'd like to share? Reach us at info at out of the bluepodcast.org. Subscribe to Out of the Blue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And on our website, out of the blue hyphen the podcast.org.