Become a Clinical Psychologist without a Clin Psych Masters: An interview on substantial equivalanece

In this interview, Aaron chat with Kate Crosher, and Educational and Developmental Psychologist who has just had her prior learning recognised by the board and been granted Clinical Endorsement.

This is a game changer for Australian Psychology

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

All right, so welcome. We've got something really exciting to talk about today, which is substantial equivalence, which on the face of it might not sound all that equ that interesting, but we have a living, breathing example of substantial equivalence here in Kate. Kate is a freshly minted clinical psychologist, which I say freshly minted, she's actually been a psychologist for over two decades. But she comes from the Edin Dev pathway. So Kate has an Edin Dev background training and does not have uh clinical masters. But as of very late last year, Kate was a very good idea.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

No, uh early January.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Early January this year, she has become a clinical psychologist via the Substantial Equivalence Pathway. So for those of you who don't know about the Substantial Equivalence Pathway, it's relatively new. As you would be aware, there's been this ongoing battle in psychology over the two-tier system. And as many of you would be aware of, uh, there were a number of people who, when the gates shut to being in the clinical psychology pathway, they felt that they had been unfairly excluded from that pathway. Historically, it didn't matter so much. It just meant that you got an extra magazine from the APS. Suddenly, when we throw an extra 50% rebate for Medicare, that distinction between clinical and non-clinical actually really matters. There's been an ongoing battle for that in psychology, but importantly, in the legal front, the Australian Association of Psychologists Incorporated AAPI funded some legal action. And one of the most important legal cases that was taken was a case called Coulter versus the Psychology Board of Australia. Dr. Coulter had a long, substantial equivalence training as a clinical psychologist. And she argued that what had happened to her, whereby her clinical training, even though it was clinical training, it wasn't called a clinical masters. She argued that she should be able to access uh clinical psychology. The board rejected that. They took it to VCAT, which is the Victorian Civil and Appeals, Civil and Administrative Appeals Tribunal, and Culter and funded by the AAPI, were successful in that bid. So the board not only had to give her clinical psychology status, once you open the door, that has a precedent. So they very rapidly had to develop this thing called the substantial equivalence pathway. So that people who have met the requirements of clinical psychology, but who didn't come through one of the traditional pathways are now able to get that equivalence and that endorsement as clinical psychologists. And as I said earlier, Kate is a living, breathing example of this. Someone who not all that long ago met the requirements for being a clinical psychologist, but was unable to get that clinical endorsement. And I should, full disclosure, Kate and I know each other because she's working with us on the PrEP program and she's helping us develop the educational and developmental pathway, which is something we're really excited about for Eden Dev registrars. Kate, can I throw over to you? Tell me a little bit about first off your story. What's your clinical background? What's your professional background? How did you manage to miss out on that?

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Well, um, as you said, I've been a psychologist for uh coming up to 25 years now. Um I did an education developmental masters um 2001, 2002, which was pre-APRA.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Um in Victoria, we um didn't have regulated titles for anything apart from a psychologist. So all the other titles, I'm aware that Western Australia had clinical psychologists as a specialization.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Yeah, WA had a specialization, but we were the same in Queensland. We had, you know, psychologists and provisional psychologists. They were our two categories. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Um, and in order to, I grandfathered as an educational developmental psychology, again for transparency, the grandfather terminology. Um, and I had inklings prior to APRA coming in that there would be this transition period where if you were a college member, you would be able to um get your endorsement, I guess, whatever they were going to call it. So 2009, I put my application into the APS with a little bit of backwards and forwards. Um they accepted my application for membership of the CEDP.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Um, and then that transition College of Educational and Developmental Psychology. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Good job. Um, so I um yeah, became an ed and dev with the transition to APRA. Um so it was only a few years after the two-tier stuff happened.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Yeah, can I be dumb? If you'd applied for clinical at that point in time, would it have like what when I I I have a clinical PhD, but when I applied for, as it was, membership of the clinical college, it was just pay your extra 50 bucks. Uh it was almost like signing up for a newsletter at that particular point in time. If if you'd applied for clinical in, I think you said 2009, 2000, 2009, would you would you have got it then?

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Or um my understanding at the time, which I have since heard, was in order to become a clinical college member, you had to demonstrate that you'd done some extra PD in psychopharmacology. Um so I don't believe that I would have had to have a clinical master's. I do know other people who grandfathered at the same time who were able to get clinical psychology from grandfathering without much in the way of training. Um, but I can't, I don't know for sure exactly what that looked like. I've only heard rumors.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

No, no, and and again, it's it's interesting. We've got this kind of oral history, and it it feels like the it feels like the pathway went very rapidly from pay you 50 bucks to pay your 50 bucks and show us your academic transcript transcripts to pay your 50 bucks academic transcripts plus substantial equivalents. And by by the time they shut it, it was 50 bucks academic transcripts, substantial equivalence. And by the way, are you a professor of clinical psychology?

SPEAKER_02 6:20

And like it is very much and I agree, I think that it happened pretty pretty quickly because even in the educational developmental college, um, they had I remember filling out the form. In fact, I found the form I filled out in my electronic paperwork, and you had two options. You had the option of um having demonstrated a period of supervised practice in order to um, or you had to show that you've done substantial PD. Um so I went with the I've done substantial PD in the ed and dev space. They did come back to me and say, Oh, you haven't got any supervision. And I my response to them was, oh, the form said I had these two options. Um, and then they approved it.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Got it. So then for the last, and I'll I'll round up a little bit, but for the last 20 years, you've been educational developmental psychologists, you've been working in educational, school, you know, a variety of settings.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Um, presuming, and I I don't know enough about your career history, but presuming that you're working in private practice, your clients were disadvantaged by the, you know, the rebate. You know, in in a school setting, the clinical thing probably doesn't make a lot of difference. In a lot of settings, it doesn't, but in that private practice setting, under the two-tier system of Medicare, your clients got the lower rebate, my clients got the higher rebate.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

And how it tended to play or how it tends to play out for um psychologists is that there ends up being two different um the sorry, the same fee. Um so the clinical psychologist and the edit and dev psychologist or any other psychologist will be let's round it up to say they charge 250 bucks. Um everybody's charged out at 250 bucks. Um the clinical psychologists, the re the rebate for clients will be higher, and the rebate for everybody else will be lower. And so what ends up happening, particularly for contractors, is the contractors get a lower fee.

unknown 8:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Because the gap for the client is the same, but that tends to be or or certainly how how it played out in in our practice was very much not so much that people got a lower fee, but it was harder to fill their books because you know, a client is well, yeah, I've got to pay X to see you, or I can pay X plus 50 bucks or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

And that's why a lot of the clinics, like when I've worked at there was one clinic I worked at where everyone was just a flat fee, so that they didn't have that issue. The gap would be the same regardless of which which clinician you got. Um, that just meant that they didn't have trouble filling the books. So at the same time, I as you say, um, Medicare actually hasn't featured that much in my career. Um, I've worked primarily in schools, and when I've worked in private practice, um I've mostly done assessment. Um, it's featured a little bit here and there, um, but it often is playing out. And the reason why I went for substantial equivalence in the end was because of NDIS.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Yeah, perfect.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

NDIS has shifted the ball game in what they are expecting of people and they are wanting clinical psychologists to sign off on reports. And so what it will mean as an education developmental psychologist, who my primary key work is neurodevelopmental disorder assessments, that is my bread and butter. That's your work, yeah. That's your work. That's what I do. Um, and I have 25 years experience nearly doing that. Um they would be, and it hasn't happened so much so much to me, but it has happened to a lot of my supervisees. Um, that they will get the pushback from NDIS saying, sorry, you're not a clinical psychologist, your report is not in not regarded basically, not in those words, but um, okay. You need to get clinical psych sign offs.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Yeah, yeah. Well, which uh and again, you know, I I don't want to get into the the politics of this. No, it's it's bonkers that I could sign off on your report where you know you you were infinitely more qualified in doing that work, but you know, I'm sitting here with a particular side. Anyway, um I I really I really appreciate that sort of potted career history. And I think this this is why the Coulter case is so important in that if this was three years ago and the same thing happened and you there was no there was no substantial equivalence, like that that is a landmark case that has changed the face of psychology registration, endorsement, etc. etc. Um, I can't remember the exact timing, but it feels like about 18 months ago that the board Yeah, I think you're right. What about actual paperwork and pathway? Did you like how did you become aware of that? Was it through AAPI or APS or through your friends?

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Actually, just through colleagues, through colleagues, um ADPA colleagues, actually. Um A D P A Australian Education Developmental Psychology Association. So me with two of my mates, two of my mates.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

We can stick a link down below and we'll stick a link to the COLTA case uh down in the video description too. Tell us about our EDPA.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

So EPA started because we wanted to do some advocacy. So me and two friends basically, um, colleagues who'd worked together for a while decided that we would found an association specific for educational developmental psychology. So I really identify as an educational developmental psychologist. That's my primary bread and butter. Um and um, you know, one of them was, you know, found out about this and it was it was all kind of on the works anyway. Um we'd heard things around the traps. Um, and you know, I remember the conversation going, you know, you should apply for this, Kate. And I'm like, I'm not gonna get through. Like I really felt like I didn't have what was gonna be required. Um and then they went through and they got it, and I'm like, oh, okay, that's interesting. Um, and I thought, well, you know, maybe they've done a little bit more in, you know, some things that I haven't done. And so um, you know, primarily my training in particular was primarily child focused. Um so from my lifespan competency, my placements weren't as as I perceived at the time clinical enough. Um and it wasn't until I started unpacking things that I thought, oh, there's more here than I realized. Um anyway, so they went and did it, and then I started to see other people going through the track. So when you start seeing other people and you're like, hang on a second, if they've got it, maybe I can get it. Um and then so yeah, middle of last year is when I started thinking about it.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Really fascinating that you mentioned that threshold thing because I and again, this was an off-the-record conversation that I had with somebody who would know. But the the feedback that I got was back in the day, the board was coming from a position of almost the onus of proof was on you need to justify why you get substantial equivalents. With the and and I I don't mean to overplay this, but I think it was embarrassing for the board to have the decision overturned in a in a VCAT hearing. That has really changed their focus to more if we say no to you, could we defend it in a in a civil and administrative appeals tribunal? And that changes the onus very much from a show that you have all of your ducks lined up and that you absolutely, you know, meet all of the criteria, more towards are we gonna have to turn ourselves into a pretzel to say no to you? And if we do, then maybe it's just better to say yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Yeah. And the the the process still requires a lot of effort on the my behalf or the person's behalf to prove that what they have done is equivalent. Um, but what's useful about it, I guess, is that you have to prove that it's equivalent, not that it's the same.

unknown 14:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

So it doesn't have to be exactly the same, it just has to be demonstrate similar competencies, and it's all linked to the APAC competencies.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

And and I think that's that's the really interesting thing for me because like when when I look at the details of the the Coulter case, and I and I can't bring the exact details to mind now, but like she had sat in her training courses with clinical students, and like she she didn't have substantial equivalence, she had equivalents, yeah, just with a different name. But I think the precedent that has been set is now much more about it's got to be substantively the same, and it's got to kind of line up with those APAC, you know, the APEC matrix of what the competencies and and requirements are.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

And I think, you know, and and I don't know what you remember, but I definitely remember there wasn't going to be endorsement. There was only going to be psychology. Um and it was, I believe, the Western Australia having the specialist title that actually started to advocate for, well, actually, we need something more than that. And so the default became the APS colleges. Um and in hindsight, you know, what does that mean? Like that's just an interesting thing to reflect on. Like, what does it really mean in terms of we are so similar across all of us? Um, and ultimately, you know, what does that mean for a red red regulated profession? I guess.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Absolutely. Like it's it's always been a, you know, an interesting, and this is not to throw shade on any of the smaller colleges, but I think the college of community psychologists has about 60 members, the college, um, the health psychologists have about 150 or whatever. The interest groups, the largest interest group, which is the child and family interest group, has about 6,000 members. So there's there's a real question as to if you dig into the history of it, why are some things colleges and some things are interest groups? It's just about was there a group of academics who created a master's program at some point in history and then attached a college to it? So a college is just a formalized version of an interest group in many ways.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

It was always an interesting piece of pedagogic fiction.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

That these things then turned into a I think if they turned it into an actual specialization, I think that would have made a lot of sense. But I think just just taking a college structure and saying, well, that's now a a different thing is a very interesting it is.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

And and I think that a lot of these things happen for convenience. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

So so jumping into the present, so I again I you know I tend to read things, you know, psychology related. So I knew about the Coulter case, but I guess I'd I just imagined that this would correct a bit of a you know historic injustice and you know it might apply to a couple of dozen people, maybe a hundred people Australia-wide. And then I guess this really came onto my radar actually about the same time that you and I started talking, so about 12 months ago. So for context, Kate and I started talking about this new prep product, this Eden Dev um prep stream, um, the Psychology Registrar Endorsement Program. If you just happen to be stumbling across this video and have no idea what the hell I'm talking about. Um so we we started talking at that stage, and of course, you know, we're we're interested in the market side of that. So, you know, I reached out to some of the masters programs who are running uh Eden Dev Psychology Master's programs, because obviously they are the type of students who were interested in training this year and next year and every year going forward from here. And I was really surprised to find the number of them that were actually applying for dual registrar pathways right from the outset. So they had got their Eden Dev, and then maybe one of their placements was in a child psychiatric facility, or maybe they'd taken an extra elective in something a bit clinical, and they were putting in for dual registrar programs. And they were saying, so if we do the prep um registrar program with you guys, will that help us get our clinical um endorsement? And I realized, uh, damn, I I don't know the answer to that. So that's that's where our our interest came through. Can you tell us a little bit about what you're seeing for the students that you know? The again, it's all oral history at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

It is, it is, and it's all a lot of it's online in the um educational developmental networking groups and stuff like that. Um I'm seeing a lot of people get through. Like, and in fact, I would say more yes than no. Um the few people that can't get through tend to be ones where like the couple of anecdotal stories I've heard um applying if your master's course didn't have placements. Now I didn't even know that was a thing, but in the 90s. No, but in the mid but in the mid-90s, apparently that some of them didn't have placements. So and they were but they were still a master's. So again, cool, cool, that's interesting. Um if the placements that you did didn't address lifespan competency or didn't address um you know enough assessment competency or stuff like that. So if you weren't, if you didn't have enough variability within your placement um options um and things like that. Otherwise, if you've done certainly four plus two and five plus one, no choice, no chance there.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Um if you don't have a two-year master's in another endorsement area, um, you won't get through on um a clinical that that still seems to be a that there's definitely there's the historic justice, you know, injustice cases, like that there's definitely some four plus two, and and I I hate to you know use some numbers to describe a whole bunch of people, but there are some people who have four plus two training um that is historic training that have had careers that are clinical who currently look like they're they're some of them are getting those um those endorsements approved. But what seems like a fairly simple pathway is if you've got a master's in X, and and this is not just the clinical, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

No, it's for anything. It's counseling. You can if you you're a clinical psych and you want to try and get a counseling psych endorsement or an ed and dev psych endorsement, you could try it that way too. Um any direction.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Yeah, which which does kind of open up the idea of what are the actual substantial differences between our because when when when I look at the APAC requirements for clinical and counselling, and I don't mean this to offend either group, but I do struggle to to disambiguate the two and to find like where is the point in the Venn diagram where they don't.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Yeah.

unknown 20:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

And I think it's clearer with Ed and Dev, and it's clearer with Neuro, and obviously with OrgSite.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

And maybe forensic as well. And like maybe there's some forensic things, like clinical to forensic, maybe not so much, but I feel like forensic to ed and dev there feels like a bigger jump.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Um well, well, you've you've you've you've had to put up with my insulting idea of getting rid of all eight of the endorsements. I know.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

I I'm not anti it. I'm not anti it. Um, I think there's something to be said for really rethinking the whole thing. Um having said that, I still identify as an ed and dev, and I probably always will.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Um for those for those watching the video who haven't heard my soapbox about this, I believe we've only got three areas of specialization. Area one is treatment, and I think there's some forensic psyches who treat sex offenders and drug and alcohol, and I think there's some ed and dev psyches who treat developmental disorders, and there's some clinical and counseling psyches who provide treatment and psychotherapy. So that's group number one. Group number two is assessment, and again, I think some clins do assessments, some forensics do assessments, some neuros, some ed and devs, some orgs, and actually the process. A psychometric assessment and report writing has more in common between a forensic doing psychopathy assessment and a neuro doing dementia assessments than a forensic doing sex offender treatment versus a forensic doing psychopathy assessment. And then finally, I think we've got a systems group who, you know, certainly within health psychology, there's some people who are working on public health and safety messaging, certainly within community psychology, certainly within organizational psychology. So there are three groups, actually, I think is treatment assessment and systems. But yeah, that's a that's a that's an argument for another day. And as you say, there's a lot of identity. You see yourself as an ed and dev psych, I see myself as a clinical psych. You know, we don't want to abandon that identity.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

But but but as you say, like historically, and again, not wanting to harp back on history all the time. We're getting old, Aaron. Um, it's about these were interest areas, they were areas that people identified with and places that people worked rather than skills underlying them. So um it's just an interesting kind of little world that we live in in this space at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

So what what would you say? I guess can I ask you to speak to a couple of different audiences? So audience number one, you are coming to the end of an ed and dev pathway at the moment. Should you be looking at applying for let's say, let's say clinical and ed and dev or ed and dev and neuro? Like, is that something that you would encourage people to have a crack at? Or do you think the paperwork's too much of a drama if it doesn't actually have a benefit?

SPEAKER_02 23:32

In all honesty, I didn't think the paperwork was as hard as I thought it was going to be. Um so, regardless of what stage of your career you're in, um, you have to basically prove there's two parts that you have to prove. You have to prove that your training was equivalent to a clinical master's, and you have to approve that your period you have to prove that your period of supervised practice was equivalent to a um pathway. So they're two different documents, essentially. Um, and AAPI has a lot of proformers um around those documents. So if you are an AAPI member, that I found that personally quite helpful. Um and yeah, you just have to unpack and it's got some, you know, you know, how many hours did you do of this of supervision and stuff like that, and how many hours did you work of clients, and how many hours was direct client contact and stuff like that. So you do have to have a bit of a record of some of your things, um, which is a bit harder the long older you get, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Just just on that front, if you are thinking of doing um the prep program, please don't apply to us for your clinical equivalence because uh it's it's this is entirely a cybar decision. You you can you can do your registrar training with us, we will absolutely train you. But if you were a social worker, we would absolutely um train you. Our our training doesn't make you more able to get that clinical equivalence. But once you get the clinical equivalence, our training will meet all of the requirements to get your endorsement. Yeah. All right, so that's group number one. Group number two, what about old people like you and me? Um, would would you encourage them to have a crack for it, crack at it?

SPEAKER_02 25:09

I I think that if you can demonstrate both of those pieces, then it can't hurt to try. Um, and I I guess there is some values and some advocacy elements to some of this kind of stuff. So I don't want to, you know, be online recorded to say that I um I definitely think you need to do this to stuff up the system. But there's a little part of me that kind of believes, you know, like really if we're gonna make change and we're gonna see change, we have to do something to make that happen. Um, and the more of us that do this, the more that it does demonstrate that the system isn't working the way it is. And actually the impact is, I think, most significant on our clients and on our clinical psychologists. I actually think that that's where the impact, even though it feels like it's everybody else, I actually think the biggest impact, even though clinical psychology has grown, I think, with all respect, of course, to everybody, is it's watering down what's actually there and it's making it much harder. Like people are going into clinical psychology. I've had plenty of students that I've supervised um in different roles. I've supervised clinical psychologists in training and props who are doing clinical as well as Ed and Dev and Five Plus Ones and all the rest. Um, and what I find is people are choosing clinical psychologists because they're told that it's a better pathway, and they're told that that's going to give you greater opportunities and greater um um job opportunities and all the rest and rebates and all that. Um, but it's not like the clinical psychology is supposed to, if we look at purely what is clinical psychologists supposed to be doing, it's about a certain group of clients and a certain group of presentations and a certain environment that you want to work in. Um and that's not gonna suit everybody, and it shouldn't suit everybody. So the rebate shouldn't be the decision of why you choose that.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

The the word clinical comes from the Greek klinos, which means bedside, um, which means that's the work that we're doing. So if you're doing clinical psychology because you want the higher rebate, I agree with Kate completely, that's the wrong decision. If you're working, if you're doing clinical psychology because you're interested in serious mental illness, schizophrenia, bipolar, eating disorder, um, you know, the things that are at the pointy end of the DSM, I think if that interests you, and that's a group of people who you have a passion for, that certainly that at least for me is more consistent intellectually and at a values level. So that was the third group that I was going to ask you to speak to. Now you've you just finished your honors degree last year and you've got good grades and you interview well, you're very personable, you're gonna go and have a crack at a master's. What would you recommend that you do?

SPEAKER_02 27:53

I mean, I feel like that flows on really easily from what I've just said. Like you find what what do you like? What do you enjoy? Pick the masters that you enjoy and pick the pick the area that you want to work in. Um, and sure, I'd love everybody to go and do ed and debt, but that's not gonna suit everybody.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Um not other than the area that is perceived as being the status area or the money area, whatever, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Because I do think I I maybe I'm naive, maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I do think that the system is gonna have to catch up. Whether it's two years down the track or five years down the track, I really believe that the system is gonna have to figure this out and the government's gonna have to adjust what's happening in Medicare somewhere along the way. Um, because I don't think that this is sustainable long term, and I think that that's where our advocacy needs to be, because I do think that if we were able to shift that Medicare part, that everything else would naturally then flow down and we would get a more equivalency around all of us, and we would all feel so much better around what's happening, and people would get what they need more, and people would get psychologists that were trained to support them in the way that they need to be supported. Um, ultimately, if you were doing fourth year, do what you love.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

That's fantastic, Kato. I really appreciate you not only sharing the story there, but also just going through the steps of it and getting a sense of what it actually looks like and what the real world implications are with without us getting too political and getting too much up on our soapboxes. I think it's really great to actually hear that story and uh, I guess the impact that it's had um on you.

unknown 29:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

For anyone who would like to get to know Kate better, obviously you have joined up with the prep team and you're going to be, I think you're doing half a dozen, maybe not half a dozen, but you're definitely doing a handful of workshops for us this year, and you're gonna be you're gonna be supervising uh. Yes, I'm very excited. We're we're really excited too. I think this is good for our clins to get expert um supervision and training um from people with highly qualified and um highly experienced in Eden Dev. Uh, and I I hope that it's just as good for the Eden Devs to be getting that training and support from a bunch of clans. So I'm I'm hoping this is a fruitful collaboration between the two of us. But just but just on the the focus of today, uh I really appreciate you sharing that story and the um the wisdom and the information um because I think that's it's really needed. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

I really appreciate you being so open to hearing all of that stuff too, because I think that that's that's so the the really important part is that we need to have clinical psychologists having these conversations and being open to having those conversations and doing them publicly because we all need to be working together on it. It's impacting everyone.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

That's okay. I'll I'll see how the hate mail in my my email goes from my clinical colleague. No, I'm I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

I know you are.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

All righty. Thank you so much, Kate. I really appreciate your time.