Tech Unboxed
Stay ahead of the curve with BBD's Tech Unboxed, the podcast that unpacks the latest trends, innovations, and transformative digital solutions driving tomorrow's world.
Tech Unboxed
The future of cloud: What businesses NEED to know!
Misconceptions about cloud computing are everywhere these days. Despite rumors that businesses are retreating from cloud services due to disillusionment, the reality is quite different. In this enlightening conversation with cloud experts Werner de Jager and Tristan Little from BBD, we dive into what's actually happening in the cloud space and why strategic implementation matters more than ever.
The perceived "trough of disillusionment" with cloud stems primarily from poorly executed migrations. The experts explain that simply moving existing systems to the cloud without modernizing them—the infamous "lift and shift" approach—invariably leads to higher costs without corresponding benefits. True value emerges when organizations architect specifically for cloud environments and leverage native services like serverless computing.
Financial management stands at the center of successful cloud strategies. The conversation explores how FinOps (Financial Operations) provides essential frameworks for cost optimization, monitoring, and governance. BBD's recently achieved Cloud Operations competency demonstrates their capability to implement these crucial operational components for clients of all sizes.
The podcast introduces the concept of "rehoming"—strategically placing workloads where they operate most effectively across multi-cloud and hybrid environments. This mature approach recognizes that different applications have different requirements, with some better suited to specific cloud providers or even remaining on-premises.
Looking toward emerging trends, artificial intelligence presents both exciting opportunities and implementation challenges. The experts discuss how BBD is exploring AIOps to predict and prevent system failures before they impact business operations, while maintaining their commitment to human expertise in managed services.
Whether you're just beginning your cloud journey or seeking to optimize existing implementations, this conversation offers valuable insights into achieving maximum value from cloud technologies through strategic planning, continuous modernization, and robust operational frameworks. Visit cloudbbdsoftware.com to learn how BBD can support your organization's evolving cloud needs.
Welcome back to the next installment of the Tech Unboxed VBDs podcast. Today we are joined by Vardana and Tristan and they're going to be speaking to us about cloud what's happening in the industry and what's happening within VBDs cloud services. To kick us off what's been happening in the cloud space over the last year or so what exciting trends are you seeing? What's interesting? Tell the cloud space over the last year or so. What exciting trends are you seeing?
Speaker 2:What's interesting Tell me a bit about it. In terms of trends, what we've seen. There's actually quite an interesting thing happening where everyone seems to think that cloud has reached a part of the hype cycle, where it's the trough of disillusionment. I think it's called.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:The Gartner cycle yes, yeah, that one Essentially everyone seeing that it's not all it was cracked up to be and moving away from it.
Speaker 2:I think with cloud, though, it's a bit of a tricky one because it's not Cloud itself is so broad.
Speaker 2:It's essentially like saying that IT has a hype cycle and I'm sure that it does, but I don't think we'll ever actually we can't grasp the beginning and the end of an IT as a whole hype cycle, and I think the same is true for cloud. It's a different way of using the same sort of technology. There's a whole lot of new services, new technology coming out with cloud, and I think the initial sort of hype cycle that came with that was how to manage cloud. How do you integrate that into your strategy and into, like, how do you manage the costs, operations, all of these sort of things, and we've sort of reached a point now where that has settled. So I think, if we look back on the hype cycle, we are in a plateau or plateauing on that one in terms of cloud adoption, but there's definitely not a disillusionment where people are moving away from the cloud completely. There's a definite maturity that's come to it. We're seeing that throughout everything that we do, but that's probably the biggest thing that we've seen.
Speaker 1:Why do you think there is that idea or concept floating around that people are moving away from the cloud and that they are disillusioned with what's happening within the space? Although it might not be true, what do you think sort of guiding that principle?
Speaker 2:I think it's largely due to cost. So one of the first things that you see when you talk to someone about cloud is generally the big driver is how are we going to save cost with cloud and the? The? The sort of main adoption route that that people tend to follow is to think let's take what we have on prem and put it in the cloud, and that lift and shift is usually a very expensive exercise. So the the disillusionment comes from. You don't see the value in cloud because you haven't adopted cloud. You've just taken what you have and put it somewhere else and your costs are sky in cloud because you haven't adopted cloud. You've just taken what you have and put it somewhere else and your costs are skyrocketing because you haven't optimized anything for cloud. So if you're looking at just putting your things elsewhere, cloud is most likely not the best answer usually. But if you're looking to take advantage of the benefit of cloud modernizing to use cloud-native services and as you adopt these things, you start to get tremendous value out of cloud.
Speaker 3:So when you architect for cloud and when you modernize to actually use those services. That's something that Tristan sees quite a lot. Yeah, I think in terms of the market trends and things that are happening, like Van has said, there's a bit of a plateau going on at the current moment, but I just think the reason we're seeing that is because there's larger fish in the technological trends that we see at the moment. A lot of the cloud providers are obviously going generative AI apologies and that's their main focus and sort of what they're pushing within the market at this point. And sort of of what they're pushing within the market at this point and sort of the stereotype that we see within the market at the current moment that people are trying to exit cloud is not necessarily the case and it's more of a fact of rehoming really what's necessary and putting the things that really fit best where they need to be, so running certain workloads on-prem that work best, that's most cost efficient.
Speaker 3:We're starting to see a lot of clients really buckle down on their cloud financials, especially with the political climate that South Africa has seen ourselves in the past year. So with, obviously, rates of exchange increasing, people are looking for somewhat exit strategies to save costs, but we see that they're really only moving a subset of their workloads out of the cloud but then really modernizing two more cloud-native services, like Van have said, to really optimize on that consumption. A lot of people, probably watching this podcast, already know that cloud services like Lambda or serverless being relatively cheap as long as your requests and your utilization sort of stays low. So there are ways to sort of modernize within the cloud and really keep those costs low while getting the most benefit out of it.
Speaker 1:That's interesting, but if I had to like dive into what you guys are saying from a layman's perspective, someone who's not as familiar with the cloud space, really, what it is about, then, from what you've said, is that don't just move things onto the cloud. You actually have to adapt them for the cloud to get the cost benefit from it. And then, once you're in the cloud, make sure that you're continuing to update and modernize and go where the services are going so that you can get the continual benefit both from a cost perspective and, I assume, from a performance space.
Speaker 3:Definitely. I think from that perspective we were talking about the trend cycles and what's trendy now and obviously a couple of years ago. Cloud was a new technology within the IT space and there was a large adoption of that within the market and a lot of that was orchestrated through rehosting or lift and shift migrations and that's what people were sold. You can run exactly what you're running on-prem in the cloud and it'll be more efficient, it'll be cheaper and all of this good joy. But that's what we're seeing in the market now is that sort of almost shooting yourself in the own foot and not modernizing towards. Cloud doesn't really reap the major benefits as almost like a blanket rule. We don't tend to do lift and shift migrations because there is no real benefit for clients in that space because of the cost aspects that on-demand costs sort of brings, that's sort of associated with cloud.
Speaker 2:It depends what the goal is, though. Sometimes lift and shift can be beneficial. If you're looking for a cost benefit, then it's usually not the one. But something that does help is, once you're in the cloud, it's very easy to modernize and adopt the new services that are in there, because if you sort of get everything in there, then you just change the parts, take off what doesn't work, but whatever you can put onto more modern services, you do that. So that's a trend that we're seeing is a lot of clients are modernizing the workloads that are already in the cloud and then, like Tristan says, focusing a lot on how to optimize the costs. So that's something that we've seen heavily throughout the year. It's a very big focus on cloud costs and on the governance around that, and there are a few ways that you can actually achieve cost savings and cost optimization.
Speaker 1:Is this that concept of FinOps that we're reading and hearing about all the time, and can you tell us a bit more about it, if it is?
Speaker 2:No, it's absolutely that. So the idea with FinOps is that you architect and build and manage with financial operations in mind. So FinOps is obviously just financial operations, but it's taking a considered approach where, with DevOps, you would do all of these things from a developer perspective. So you keep the developer experience in mind. How are you going to get your pipelines in place? How do you make it easy for your organization to use cloud, for your developers to use cloud and then to manage the things? Manage your own workloads that you deploy? With FinOps, the idea is that everyone considers the cost of cloud as well, so continuously optimize your costs, continuously check for unused resources. How do you get your cost as low as possible without impacting your performance, reliability and without giving up any of the major benefit that you actually want from the cloud?
Speaker 3:I think in terms of FinOps as well, it's not necessarily just a reduction of cost, but it focuses on the sort of tools and processes that you as an organization leverage to make sure that you're monitoring cost effectively, efficiently, and that you're avoiding scenarios so essentially cost anomalies, that you're avoiding scenarios so essentially cost anomalies that you're essentially avoiding throughout the process, also incorporating sort of your own financial practices within the market.
Speaker 3:I think that's also very important because a lot of organizations, especially when they're on-prem as a team, if I can put it that way, a lot of the distributed teams within organizations or larger enterprises typically have budgets for their software development and now moving from an operational to or OPEX model to a CAPEX model, these budgetary means that organizations are typically used to sort of not necessarily go out of the window, but they've got to reinvent themselves and sort of re-understand how these budgets need to work and how they need to back, build back into the organizations.
Speaker 3:Although necessarily those teams might not actually be charged, they've got to stay within those financial bounds to ensure that the organization stays profitable. And that's really where we're seeing a focus in our clients coming in, that they're putting that larger focus on controlling their finances, making sure they have proper monitoring and observability in place, and that's what we're trying to focus on this year. Bbd has recently achieved the cloud operations competency, which is a big win for us. It's a recently launched competency that really helps focus on those items that we've discussed and that Van had introduced is more that focus on governance and FinOps practices.
Speaker 1:What is that competency needed for the clients?
Speaker 3:So essentially what that means for our clients and for BBD's future clients is it proves that we have a competency in getting our clients operationally ready and that we have the capabilities to get operations in terms of governance, process management, automation of their day-to-day tasks set up within their environment as part of their solution. A lot of people are sort of thinking of cloud as this just compute and a place to run your applications, but it's really more than that. It's a whole ecosystem, and I'm sure Van has said that earlier that needs tight-knit control right In order to run efficiently, and that's also potentially one of the reasons that we see the trend plateauing in terms of cloud adoption is because people don't know how to really leverage these tools to the best of their ability, and that's essentially what it allows us, or shows that we have the competency to implement at our clients really getting the most benefits in terms of their financial and governmental goals.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the cloud office. It's a very natural progression into that maturity, so it's sort of like it was born from the maturity of cloud. So you would find that your cost obviously falls into that your ongoing maintenance. How do you actually budget or estimate costs for things that you bring into the cloud? And then how do you ensure that you are achieving those sort of things managing your keeping your costs contained to what you had estimated, but that you also have all of the operational things in place for, like your patching, your updates? It's very different running a cloud environment to running an on-prem environment. The concepts remain the same but the operations are different, and I think it's just a way to formalize that and to show that we are able to help our clients to implement those things, and where they can't do it or don't want to do it, need to do it themselves, we step in and we do that on their behalf with our managed service offering.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. What is this managed service offering?
Speaker 2:So essentially it's a. It depends on how much a customer would like us to manage within their environment, but we onboard their accounts into our tool set. So we've got our monitoring platform which we use for performance monitoring, reliability, uptime, if there's any patching that needs to be done, backup, so all of the operational things that you would want running all the time. Our tool set monitors that detected from a cost perspective, from a performance perspective, any weird resources, those are flagged and that will raise tickets to our support department to then action on this. So we've got quite an aggressive SLA tied to our services and that's really to support enterprise grade clients. Um, because the idea with it is that anyone should be able to run in the cloud. Right, it's not, uh, it's not aimed at small companies, at big companies, at enterprises, corporates, whatever it might be. Anyone can benefit from the cloud. Um, and we sort of just step into help where, um, where a customer may not have the skills.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of focus areas in cloud, obviously, because they'll every sort of tech that you can imagine is available as a cloud offering. Uh, pretty sure. So there's a lot of specialization that that needs to be done and you're not going to find someone that has a one-stop shop for all of cloud. So it's really about finding that baseline of services, of just keeping your environment intact. That's what we do. We keep that ticking on.
Speaker 1:Anything to add, Chris?
Speaker 3:Just on Vanna's note, you don't typically find an organization that is a one-stop shop for all cloud needs, but I definitely think BBD is trying to be one of those. I definitely think we cater to a lot of our clients' needs in terms of cloud, like with the managed service offering, but from a professional service point of view. That's something we also specialize in and we have very complimentary services in that regard. We help our clients ideate and design their cloud environments to be the most optimized and most proficient as possible, but ultimately we put down and what we put down and most proficient as possible right, but ultimately we put down and what we put down we're able to manage as well, and that's really that holistic service that BBD can provide, which I think is very niche in the market.
Speaker 1:Personally, that's awesome. So everything from designing and architecting the space all the way through to implementation and then through to management of all the services, so you do kind of cover the whole spectrum of everything to do with cloud, which is awesome.
Speaker 3:Definitely.
Speaker 1:You mentioned earlier Tristan about rehoming. What is that? How does it fit in? Is it an important concept? I?
Speaker 3:definitely think it's an important concept and especially understanding our markets and our clients that it becomes more apparent that it is a very important thing within the market at the moment and it makes complete sense for a lot of our clients. Rehoming what that really means is I think I said it earlier, but essentially it's putting things where they need to be and where they're best suited. So, having cloud-native services, I mean that can essentially live in either cloud provider and that allows them to leverage the benefits of that cloud provider's native services. But ultimately, you want to be hosting, like I said, where necessary. So having Microsoft workloads that may potentially be a better suit for your Microsoft workloads right in Azure.
Speaker 3:Hosting serverless I know AWS's serverless services, if I can put it that way, are really robust and they're sort of on top of their game within the market, so it makes sense to host that there. So it's really just about putting things where it makes the most sense and you know, organizing your organization's compute, however, makes sense to you and we're here to support that. We obviously, as an organization, provide both AWS and Azure services to our clients. I don't think we have managed services in the Azure space yet, but something we're definitely trying to our clients. I don't think we have managed services in the Azure space yet, but something we're definitely trying to work towards. But that's really what we're trying to go for is we want to be cloud agnostic from that perspective and provide the most value to our customers so they can reap the most value out of their hosting. I think that's really at the crux, what it means.
Speaker 2:And where the concept of rehoming came from is with the and I'm going to go back to the hype cycle again is where you have that mass adoption of a technology.
Speaker 2:There were companies that put everything into the cloud or large portions of it, even if it wasn't a large portion, just putting things in the cloud and trying it out, but finding that it might not be the best place for it.
Speaker 2:Necessarily, some clients are taking their workloads back on-prem, some are taking it to other clouds, but for the most part it's a multi-cloud and hybrid cloud sort of mix that we're seeing that's becoming very prevalent, of mix that we're seeing that's becoming very prevalent. One of the concepts that forms or falls part of the CloudOps is sort of movement, is um, how do you manage all of these different clouds and all of these different locations? You want to um, you know you want to make the experience as easy as possible, um to manage all of the different things and you want to manage them in the same way. Um, but providers will offer different ways to manage a different tooling. And that's where, if you look at the, the cloud native um offerings, fromative offerings, from the CNCF those really are agnostic. So adopting tooling and building an operation center that can manage all of that really fits well into rehoming strategies and supporting that multi-cloud environment.
Speaker 1:That makes a lot of sense about you know putting it where it needs to belong. And then that was actually going to be my next question about how then, do you guys, on a day-to-day basis, collate all the information that you need to in the alert, the monitoring and everything else from a cloud perspective across, say, aws, azure, potentially Google as well as any on-prem services? But you said that through the CNCF and your services, you can kind of create like a one-stop dashboard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the offering that we have specifically, we don't necessarily have a reliance on a specific cloud vendor's technologies, so we've got a third-party stack that we use for monitoring, alerting, ticketing, which integrates with each cloud provider. So we collect those metrics, those alerts, all of those things. We have intelligence built into our monitoring as well, which will flag anomalies, repeat incidents, and then through that we can action on the things, regardless of which provider it comes from. The tooling that we have is agnostic to that.
Speaker 1:That's really cool and I'm sure it's going to continue to grow as the cloud space evolves. So, apart from the FinOps and the rehoming and the hybrid solutions that we've been discussing, are there any other sort of trends or challenges that you've noticed within your clients globally, not just in South Africa?
Speaker 2:So there's obviously a very big focus on AI and machine learning in the industry, so that's very prevalent. Companies want to take advantage of these offerings. There are so many new ones being released all the time. The pace at which this is going is it is incredible, honestly, and there are so many competitors popping up in the space, so it's been really interesting to see that develop and how customers are actually using that to help their offerings, how we've been able to integrate that into our operations. So, yeah, I think it's definitely something that's going to continue to change all the time.
Speaker 3:I definitely agree with Werner.
Speaker 3:I think it's a big trend that's that's going on right now and it's a very exciting time for for generative ai and everyone's jumping on the the bandwagon.
Speaker 3:But just as it presents itself with with great opportunities, I think it presents itself with great challenges. A lot of our not necessarily our customers I think we've done great things with with gen ai and our customers, but I think generally in the market, a lot of companies are trying to jump in the bandwagon but don't really know how best to leverage these tools. And I think that's the real challenge in the market at the moment is companies wanting to adopt new and trendy technologies so they stay relevant, but not really knowing how to reap those rewards out of it or how best to use the technology to the best of their ability to provide value to their customers. And I think that's sort of the balance we need to find specifically, not necessarily within the cloud space, but with technology all in all is that balance of getting on the bandwagon so you stay relevant but making sure you provide value at the same time, and I think that's where Gen AI is at the moment is it's really really hip and happening right now, but it's.
Speaker 2:It's also not being necessarily adopted in the correct ways or being adopted to its full value what's interesting with that is that it's not it's not being driven by it per se, so it's. There's a lot of innovation that's coming from business people that are saying, well, let's try to use JPI. That's generally the first place that people go. But I think you need to. You need to explore those things, and it's really interesting that it's not being driven by IT, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 1:It's very cool. I have to be very honest. When you were speaking just now, all I could hear in my head was Spider-Man's with great power, because it's great responsibility. It's like the only thought that was rolling around. Speaking about AI, how are you using it?
Speaker 3:So there's a new concept that we're looking at adopting. We haven't fully implemented it yet and we're still sort of playing around with it, but it's more AI anomaly detection and this is not necessarily anomaly detection already exists within the cloud space, specifically around cost, and we implement that almost on the daily to try and identify cost anomalies. But this is more from an operational AI detection and it's formally known within Gartner and the rest of the sort of software industry as AIOps. And this is something that we're looking at and it's a bit of a difficult one, but this is essentially a way for us to anticipate potential downtime for our customers so that, from a managed service perspective, we're able to provide more proactive support and stop essentially, either a failover or catastrophic event or something that's going to cause an organization to lose profits or uptime, and predict that and avoid those situations. All in all and there's some really cool tools out there A lot of the cloud vendors are coming up with tools that sort of has these AI models pre-built with the metrics that you require and all of that.
Speaker 3:But this is something we're starting to take a look at. It's a bit of a cash 22. We pride ourselves from a managed service perspective in the human aspect of that, but this is something we're starting to take a look at. It's a bit of a catch-22. We pride ourselves from a managed service perspective in the human aspect of it. We have fast responses, we have someone that you can trust on the end of that laptop to provide you with quality service, and off-boarding that to AI technology sounds very exciting and sounds very progressive, if I can put it that way, but it's something that we need to balance. Like I mentioned earlier, it presents itself with a fantastic opportunity and will essentially allow our team to or award our team, sorry with more time to innovate. But also allowing an AI predictive model to sort of either fail over an environment or spin up additional resources at your expense is a bit of a yeah, exactly. So it's something that we're looking into.
Speaker 1:Sounds really fun. Do you spend a lot of time? I suppose not as much as you would like, but do you feel like playing with technology within the cloud space is still as exciting as it was a year, two years ago? And what are maybe some of your favorite ways to play?
Speaker 2:The nice thing about cloud is that things are always changing. So even things that you've implemented, that you have tried before, that you are using, they're coming out with new features. So you have to play with it all the time. There's no rest. You will be trying new things, but I mean it's fun at the same time because a lot of it is feedback driven, so bugs or feature requests that go through to the cloud providers, which they end up implementing, which make your life a lot easier.
Speaker 2:So from that perspective, absolutely that's fantastic and we love to implement those for our clients as well as much as possible. The easier we can make it for everyone, the better, and the more power we can give our customers to manage their environments also, the better. Um. But to speak to new, completely new services, that is always interesting um because, exactly the same as with with ai, you don't know exactly where everything is going to fit in, what the value is that it's going to give you um. But you need to play with it and you need to see. So it's not just within our unit in in bbd. There's um's teams within the organization that are trying new things all the time, so we really have quite a collaborative approach to testing new features, which is quite nice.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. I think that's always been one of my favorite things about the IT space as I've grown in. It is the fact that it really is so creative because there's so much playing and innovation that has to take space and that has to take place. And it makes sense that the cloud team wouldn't be an exception to that. Maybe even because there's so many services released all the time, it's kind of been forced Just changing gear a little bit, just changing gear a little bit.
Speaker 2:Tell me a little bit more about, or tell us I should say, a little bit more about what you believe, from a personal perspective. Sets BBDs cloud services apart from your competitors, apart from the fact that you're trying to set up a, is that, firstly, we don't believe that we are, as with anything else, a fit for everyone, so we take a considered approach to it. What are your goals as an organization? What are you trying to achieve? Do we align to that and how can we help you get there? So there's a lot of consultation and architecture that goes on in the background before we take a client, live with anything, and I think they're and that approach, the alignment that we have with clients from there, really does help them to get the most value out of a solution.
Speaker 2:If something is not right for a client, we will tell them, and if we can't help with it, same thing. But at the same time, we do always try to use them as learning experiences. If we haven't had that experience before, let's build it together, let's figure it out, and that sort of trust that we build with the clients through that process adds a lot to a successful deployment. And then, obviously, the ongoing management that we do in there. We're always trying to build on our offering. How do we add more value to clients? How do we help them to decrease cost, increase productivity? You know we don't want them to worry about the environment, so the more we can either help them to manage things on their own, put ourselves out of business on a managed service perspective, but you don't want to hold the keys to the castle for a client. They need to know what's happening, and the more we can innovate in that space, the better things we're able to do to take to market. So I think that sets us apart.
Speaker 3:I think that's a really mature approach to take, that you're not, as you said, holding the keys to the castle From your side, justin, I think the thing that really sets us apart from our competitors is the fact that, as our managed service and cloud unit, we don't see ourselves as a separate organization.
Speaker 3:We entrench ourselves fully within your organization and we want you to think that we are an extension thereof. We're fully entrenched and, as Van has said, we want to take our customers along on the journey. And to allude to what Van is talking about, and putting ourselves out of business is, we really want to bring customers in and enable them and teach them as part of the journey and hold their hand as their cloud adoption goes on and as we manage and mature their environments to the extent that maybe a couple of years down the lines, we could essentially be off-boarded as a supplier or a service provider, so that you can now run with your own environment, and that competency of cloud operations and cloud support is fully entrenched in our clients' organizations without us being there. And, like Vanna said, we were potentially putting ourselves out of business on that one, but I think it's a real big takeaway in terms of what sets us apart.
Speaker 1:Speaking of your clients, do you have any cutoffs for the size of organization that you work with, the types of organization, the location of organizations? What are kind of your parameters around who you bring on once you've assessed that you're a good fit for each other?
Speaker 2:It depends on what the environment looks like and it depends on what you have running in there. So really there's nothing that stops us from managing any environment. The tooling is open. As long as it's AWS. Our team knows what to do with it. So from that perspective, there isn't anything specific to an industry or a customer size, but it does depend on the client need If we're able to meet that need, then that's the fit, so open to anyone Great Like us.
Speaker 1:I think we're going to wrap up at this point. Tristan, let's start with you. Do you have any sort of final thoughts?
Speaker 3:or hopes for the rest of the year to come. Final thoughts and hopes for the year to come is just further maturity for our unit and BBD in the cloud space as a whole. I think there's always space to grow and sort of optimize your processes, your architectures, your IP. I mean there's so much to it that we could really buckle down on and I'm just hoping this year is better than the last and we grow to further and further heights.
Speaker 1:And Werner yourself, any hopes or dreams for the year?
Speaker 2:I think if anyone is interested in learning a bit more about what we do, we have recently launched a new website, a new home for cloud at BBD, so take a look at cloudbbdsoftwarecom. Just really hoping to expand on that a lot more and showcase more of the value that we add in cloud there. Yeah, so do reach out to us.
Speaker 1:So on that note we're going to close out. Thank you so much for watching along and I hope that you've learned something interesting today. Please, if you have any questions for the cloud team, for Tristan or Vanna specifically, pop a comment in and we'll make sure that we get back to you, or you can email the teams directly if you have any questions or would like to assess whether BBD is the correct service provider for you. James, thank you so much and have a good day.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having us.