The Greater Call Podcast – Episode 5: Learned Leader

🎙️ The Greater Call Episode 5: Learned Leader

In This Episode:
In this episode of The Greater Call Podcast, Mark and Pastor Kyle dive deep into the life and legacy of Joshua—one of the Bible’s most courageous and impactful leaders.

Fresh off an unforgettable week at The Masters, Mark reflects on calling history at Amen Corner, and Kyle uses it as a springboard into a conversation on faith, leadership, and resilience. Together, they explore Joshua’s journey from Moses' assistant to fearless military commander, drawing powerful parallels to the leadership challenges we all face.

🔑 Key Takeaways:

👣 Follow Before You Lead:
Joshua learned by walking closely with Moses. Leadership starts with humility and a hunger to grow.

🧠 Faith Over Fear:
Courage isn’t the absence of fear—it’s choosing faith when fear creeps in. Joshua faced giants with confidence in God’s promises.

📖 Obedience in the Unconventional:
God’s plans don’t always make sense. Marching around Jericho wasn’t logical—but it was faithful. Joshua trusted the process.

🏗️ Preparation Before Promotion:
Joshua’s years in the shadows equipped him to lead in the spotlight. Don't skip the grind.

👨‍👩‍👧‍👦 Legacy in Leadership:
“As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (Joshua 24:15) Joshua’s leadership was rooted in spiritual conviction that outlived him.

📖 Verses Referenced: Joshua 1–6, Joshua 24:15, 1 John 4:18

🧠 Quote of the Episode:
“Fast might just mean you crash harder.” – Pastor Kyle Jackson

🙌 Join the Movement:
We're building a community of faith-driven leaders who live boldly and lead intentionally.

Connect with Us:

📲 Follow us on social media: @TheGreaterCall (Instagram, FaceBook, YouTube, & X)
🎥 Subscribe on YouTube: Search ‘The Greater Call Podcast’
📩 DM us for prayer requests, leadership advice, or to share your story!

Website→ https://markimmelman.com/the-greater-call/

✨ Be full of joy in all things, no matter where you are. Be thankful. Go and be a legend! ✨

Transcript

The Greater Call - Episode 5: Learned Leader Audio

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Greater Call Podcast, episode five, learned Leader. I am Mark. That is my pastor. And good buddy, Kyle. Kyle, how are you doing? It's so good to be with you. I'm doing so good, man. Thankful to be back with you after, uh, a fun week, uh, in, in the world in which you live in on a regular basis, but for all of us who are sports fans, what a fun week.

I wore all of my gear today just because you, honestly, um, even as we get started, man, I just, I, I wanted to say this to anybody who's watching or listening, just how fun it was to, um, one watch sports history. I think you, no matter what you're a fan of, you know, watching the gentleman recently beat. Wayne Gretzky's, you know, all time scoring title in hockey, which I could care less about.

Hockey is just cool to see. And then obviously to see what Rory did, uh, in the Masters and, and honestly just thinking about you and, uh, you know, we had Amen Corner on all week at our house. Uh, and you just did such a fantastic job, man. And what a cool. [00:01:00] What a cool opportunity. I was thinking about it on just, you got to, you got to call the most prestigious, uh, three holes in golf at the most prestigious golf tournament in the world, and you got to do it on a weekend, uh, where, uh, a fan favorite for a lot of people, uh, accomplished something that only a few people have ever accomplished with.

Rory went in the Grand Slam Man, and I was just, I was thinking about you the whole time on like, you know, it's probably become some so normal to you to be able to call stuff, but to those of us watching, I'm like, how cool is that, that you got to be a part of that? And, uh. I didn't even think what we're talking about today with Joshua and all the things that Joshua's story is gonna show us.

I, I would imagine you've had some of those moments over the years just doing what you get to do as well. But man, congrats. Thank you on just such a cool weekend for you. Thank you, Kyle. It, it was incredible. Um, the Masters such a special place. Amen. Corner is, is kind of. Uh, poetic, I guess, to be a part of that segment of the show and take that to the world.

And it's a thrill and an honor and, and to, to be alongside for a lot of Rory's [00:02:00] journey and to see him then complete the career Grand Slam, which is, is, is indescribable only the sixth person to have completed that is, is mind numbing and, and to be thankful or to be fortunate enough to document it. It's incredible.

Um, and in very, in many ways as I've watched him throughout his career, I've seen, you know, real faith, real resilience, all those sorts of things that we talk about here on this Greater Call podcast where we want to help people become better leaders, better, better, better teachers, better coaches, better business people, better fathers and mothers, you know, all those sorts of things.

And, and Rory has always been out there on full display. And so it's almost a lesson in leadership to, to. To have watched him and then get to document the whole thing. And, and to that, incidentally, with, with Joshua, you know, we've had, we've had David, we've had Joseph, and we've had Paul, and then we've had Noah.

Um, I feel like, and this was me, not you. So this is the, i, I guess the inside of, inside of me wanting to go in this order [00:03:00] because we're putting the cart in front of the horse a little bit and some backstory. If we had had a son, my wife and I, Tracy, his name would've been Joshua. 'cause I've been so enamored, enamored with this guy.

I'm one of a few people to have a book in the Bible named after him. Um, and it, it's just a, the, the story through the book of Joshua is incredible to me, but we are putting the cart in front of the horse. Because he was, he a devout learner and follower of Moses. Yeah. He's one of the heroes of the faith.

So I, I want you, before we dive into Joshua and learn from the character that he is, give us the little quick sort of whistle stop tour of who Joshua is and what he accomplished. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, you know, the quick version is, is just he started off as Moses's assistant. Mm-hmm. You know, just kind of a guy that followed him around and, um, decided to just, uh, learn from him and see what he did.

And, uh, and [00:04:00] then obviously God called him to a much higher calling in that as he ended up being a military leader. Um, and became one of the faithful spies to go look out at this promised land that God had promised. Uh, the people, his people, that they would take this land. And then really it was decades of preparation.

Mark. Yeah. Uh, where Joshua ends up becoming the central figure, um, of this conquest of Canaan, God's chosen land for God's people. And he really guided Israel and the military through strategy and his faith, and really his reliance on, you know, in his story, on the presence of God. And his life was ultimately marked by, I would say obedience, courage, uh, strong spiritual legacy.

Um, it's really probably summed up in his fam His famous, uh, words were, uh, as for me in my house, uh, we will serve the Lord, which is in Joshua, uh, 24, I believe. And I think, uh, just from a biblical perspective, he was fearless. Um, and I think we'll talk about a little bit of that later on in the story. Is that even possible to live a fearless life?

But Joshua is the example in the [00:05:00] Bible. One of the examples in the Bible. Of how you can live a life, uh, that might not have opportunities to have fear, but you can, you can work through those with faith. So just an incredible leader. And like you said, you don't get a a na, you don't get a book of the Bible with your name on it for, for just doing something small.

Yeah. Um, it's funny when you went to Joshua 24 15, but as for me, in my household, um, I got an alert on my computer if you heard a noise there. And that was, don't forget. To mention one of the Bible verses. 'cause there's so many. I mean, if you go through the book of Joshua, it's belted out at you all the time.

Be strong and courageous. Have I not told you? Be strong and courageous. I mean this, this is an exercise in, in really the mindset it takes to undertake big things, which he did. Yeah, because, well, well first, the first one of those big things. He was the only person to go partially up Mount Sinai alongside Moses when Moses was given the 10 Commandments by God.

Right. [00:06:00] Didn't go all the way up. But that speaks to a special person. And obviously Moses had earmarked this young man and in the end he was validated by God for picking Joshua. So I wanna get into. Maybe what Moses saw in a young Joshua and how we can learn some of that stuff. And the first thing is, is that he was known as Moses, constant shadow.

It's like he was always around his mentor. Always learning, always watching. Always watching this guy who took the Israelites out of Goshen, out of Egypt, all the way through the desert for 40 years, and then eventually Joshua takes them into the promised land. So I want you to comment a little bit because you're a leader of people, of, you know, having that young person who just has that appetite for learning.

Yeah. You, you, you know, the one I'm talking about, characterize that person. Well, I think, you know, I think it's John Maxwell Mark that [00:07:00] says, you can't lead unless you have learned how to follow. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think a lot of people, specifically in young leaders in our world today, they, they don't wanna follow.

They just wanna lead. They want what the person who's 50 has, but they want it at 25. And, uh, and they, and again, in, in, in the world we live in, you can get places faster, but fast isn't always best. Um, fast might just mean that you crash harder, uh, when you get there. So I do think the characteristic of learning how to follow.

Uh, before you lead is, is very important. And I think you saw that in Joshua with Moses. He didn't try to manipulate anything. He didn't try to go before Moses. He didn't try to. Have conversations behind the back to get people to, to believe in him or follow him. You know, I think that's what happens in the world today.

We live in the, you know, the corporate world and, and this, the world of leadership. People are always trying to position themselves, uh, to climb the ladder. And in God's economy, he's asking us to learn, to grow, to be developed. God's way more interested in developing your character than he is getting [00:08:00] you to what you're called fast.

Um, because the Bible's, you know, very clear. It says, you know, before, uh, but pride comes before the fall. Yeah. Most young leaders, if they get somewhere too fast, think they got there on their own and then they fall hard. I think older, wiser leaders followed someone learned a lot, allowed there to be time in between what they were, uh, what they felt like they were promised, and the payoff date of that promise.

Uh, so learning how to follow is one of the greatest leadership characteristics that you can develop in your life. I. I'm led to say this. I, I wanna mine this a little further, you know, because pride comes before the fall. It's one of those cliches, we've all heard it, we've heard it so much. We're like, oh, whatever.

And it goes over the head and, and, and the fall. I don't want us to take this too literally. And I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. I'm talking from personal experience here. You know, the fall is not the crash and the loss of the job or, or something. Um, like disastrous like that. The fall [00:09:00] could be the substance abuse.

I. Depression, a, anything along those sort of lines when the whole, the train that is me, let's say going toward my goal gets upstate a little bit and, and, and I get my focus off the goal because maybe I've been so locked up in it and trying to position myself that I'm not doing what I should be doing on a day-to-day basis.

And as a result, you know that house of cards comes crashing in and then we rely on something else to kind of make us feel okay and we almost numb. The, the events that are going on around us are, are you feeling me where I'm going here? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I, I think it's the number one problem with our world today is the speed in which we want things to happen, and then our mind and our spirit.

Um, and we're not able to, we weren't even wired to move that fast. We weren't wired to. Uh, succeed that fast. Like we are, we are a body of systems. Uh, those systems have to all work together for us to [00:10:00] live a healthy life. And I think the same thing is true with leadership and is that our bo you know, we're not wired to move that fast for our mind to pro process information that fast.

But our world has changed that we're a lot of the fall. Like you said, it's not just pride, it's. Our mind falls. Mm-hmm. Or our, our, we have this fall in fatigue, or we have these falls in our marriage because we're not prioritizing, uh, the right things. And I think there's always preparation before promotion.

Um, I think you have to, uh, I, I had a, a mentor tell me one time, you've gotta grow through the grind. Um, that the best coffee mark is you're a coffee person is not from a Keurig where it's fast. It's from an espresso machine where it grinds the beans and presses the. Puts weight on it and then there's the pressure of the water and then you get great coffee.

But that's a process. Mm-hmm. The Keurig is fine. You'll get coffee, but it won't be nearly as good as the one that grinds the beans presses. It puts the pressure of water and the heat through it. That coffee's always better. Um, but I think we live in a world that likes the Keurig. [00:11:00] I missed my this morning 'cause it was malfunctioning, but that's okay.

Um, okay. So. Here we are. So now as, as young Joshua, he's followed Moses. Now we're towards all of this long time in the desert where Moses was the great leader, but the, the Israelites were worshiping false gods and all sorts of stuff was going on, and he had a lot of things to deal with. I've read that when Joshua was the leader and took the Israelites into Israel, there was a period of great peace and a great discipline.

So, so it, it made me think all the more about Joshua. And then to that. Now Moses is told they're standing on the edge of the promised land. Canaan and Moses, correct me if I'm wrong, is taken onto a big hill mountain and looked over there and he said, that's the god's, like, that's the promised land. You are not gonna go in there, but your protege,

Joshua is gonna take [00:12:00] folks into that. And I, I, I'm trying to put myself in Joshua's shoes to say. Yeah. Here I'm next to this man who I've revered for 40 years, maybe more, and now he gets to step aside and I have to do this. I mean, the weight on those young shoulders must have been, uh, sort of immense. I mean, talk about dealing with a life challenge.

Yeah. It's this big reward. It's what we've all hoped for. It's the goal, but. Uh, uh, help me through, help us through that. Oh, shucks moment. Because so many leaders get that, you know, we wanted the job, we wanted the job, and all of a sudden it's thrust upon our shoulders and we're like, oh, heck, what? Now? Um, uh, you, you've written your notes, you're like, faith over fear.

To, to, to me, this is like, sure, it's great to go in, but there's that element of the unknown, the fear, and you talk about faith of fear with Joshua. Let's go here. I, I, I think this is fascinating to learn from. I mean, I think, I think [00:13:00] fear is a natural emotion, right? I mean, we all face it. Um, it's easy to look on at you.

From a distance in which you did at Amen Corner this weekend, but I would imagine there's multiple moments in that, that last round featured group coming through, you've announced Amen Corner for years, but this is Rory's on the cusp of a grand slam and you wanna make the right call. You wanna say the right thing, you wanna say something that's memorable?

Mm-hmm. Uh, to think just because you've done it for a long time. You know that there wouldn't be any fear in that moment. It's like me getting the opportunity to speak somewhere, so sure. 15, 16 years of doing it. But it's a new room. It's new people. You wanna say the right thing. You wanna help people out.

Fear is a natural emotion and any, and it's not a sin, you know, as somebody who's listening to the the podcast, that's a follower of Christ, it's not a sin to. To have fear, but I, I, I do think that what, what God offers us through his perfect love. The verse in one John says, there is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out all fear.

Mm-hmm. Uh, that is the closer we are [00:14:00] to God. The more we are consistent with the things God ask us to do, that when fear creeps in, we don't have to lead and live in fear, but we know how to get that, that moment of fear that can come over any of us. And we all know that feeling We, we know as Christians how to pause.

And take our faith and make that greater than our fear, knowing God placed us in this moment, at this time, in this situation for a purpose. And when you do that, there's just a confidence and a courage that overwhelm overwhelms and over weighs, uh, the fear that might come up naturally. Yeah. So I do think our faith is very important.

You know, I, I wonder how people that don't have faith. I don't know how they walk through fearful moments. I don't know how they have something that's greater than the fear that comes up. Uh, we as Christians, we, we have our faith that we can, we can have courage that over weighs and overwhelms that fear that might come naturally.

And I'm sure Joseph had those moments. I mean, I think I. I mean, excuse me, Joshua had those moments. Yeah, that was look all. Yes. The thing probably [00:15:00] had those moments. Yeah. Yes. Great. It's happening throughout every single one of these podcasts. The more recent these got, Jesus. Jesus had that moment. Mark, I mean, we're recording this on Easter week.

Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane said, you know, when he was getting ready to go to the cross, he knew it was about to happen. He literally prayed to heaven and said, father, if you can take this cup from me. Do it, but thankful for us as Christians. He said, not my will, but your will be done. But he had a moment where the Bible said he was sweating like drops of blood.

And I would say, because that was a moment of fear of what was about to happen, so we all have it. But then even Jesus in that moment, his faith was greater than his fear because he said, not my will, but yours be done. Yeah. So I do think faith over fear is a big thing. Yeah. You've sent me, I'm looking at my phone.

Yeah. I, I, I texted you. The question was, is it really possible to be fearless? You know, because you hear people say like the motivational speech, go in there and go and be strong and be fearless. And I'm like, okay, I've been that guy that you're talking to. And I'm like, yes, I'm in. Yes, I'm in. Yes, I'm in.

Then someone stands there, our giant, [00:16:00] if we go back to David and it's like, um, okay, God, uh, I'm scared to death over here, but we gonna do this anyhow. Yeah, I think God's the only one that can ultimately be fearless. Um, in the literal sense of like, um, God can only be the person fully without fear, but, but we are invited.

Um, into this relationship with God and as Christians, we're invited to live fearlessly. Mm-hmm. By continually choosing our faith, by continually trusting in God's promises, by continually looking back at the history of our life and what God, every moment where there's always been. Fear God's always come through.

Um, and just being led by him allows that fear to lessen. Uh, not that we can ne never be fearful, but with God we can become more fearless. Love it. Okay. Um, again, I'm, I'm sort of bouncing around the show, but I'm trying to paint a lot. I'm trying to paint the picture of who Joshua was, the person, because, you know, leadership lessons, you can have folks say to you, do this and [00:17:00] don't do that, and do this and don't do that and consider this.

But, but Joshua is like. A shining example of what it looks like to be a great, brave, courageous, um, faith-filled leader, something that's emblematic of what this pod podcast goal is. So, so now this is when he is, assume the mantle from, I get my paper out. Moses. Okay. Yeah. But before that, they camped out on the edge of the promised land.

And Moses sends 12 scouts over into Caleb. Yep. Yep. They come back with a report, 10 of them give it. Oh, there's giants over there. We've got no chance. We cooked. I don't even know why. We've wasted our time. This is gonna suck. Then Caleb and Joshua come back. They saw the same stuff, yet they go, it's a land of milk and honey.

Yep. The, the, the grapes are like as big as you can imagine, and the wheat is as high as an elephant's eye. Now I'm, I'm [00:18:00] paraphrasing, but, but, but this is the thing. So I, I'm wondering about this outlook because people can look at the same thing and people can have like one perspective or the other.

Clearly Joshua and Caleb, and we'll talk about Caleb in a future, uh, podcast. Clearly there was something different about how they were bred, or at least how their mind worked. To be able to go in there, see the giants, and they were described by the other 10 Scouts as if they were so big. We felt like grasshoppers.

We were so small, right? So to look upon these folks, 'cause you're spying, and then to go, man, this place is great. I cannot wait to get in there. Yeah, I want you to talk about that. Oh, man, come on. I mean, find me a leader that, that doesn't have optimism as one of their characteristics or their, their leadership traits that has led something successful and led it long term.

And I, I'm, I'm sure there are some, but I promise you there's the majority, it leans on [00:19:00] the side of, they don't see the glass half empty. They see it half full. We get to see the same glass. How do you see it? And I think Joshua was a guy that saw the glass half full. I think Joshua was a guy that had optimism.

I think Joshua was a guy that brought solutions and not just problems, uh, which is a great leadership, uh, characteristic as well. And uh, honestly, Mark, and I know you hate when I do this on the podcast, but man, I like that's one of. Uh, about you is you, you see the glass half full. You encourage people, you call people up.

You do that in the way you announce. Um, on, on tv. You always have optimism. You always, uh, speak from things from what I call the tree of life, that you see things on how they're intended to be, not what they are. You see the best and not the worst. And I just think that's what Joshua did in that moment.

And we had the opportunity to do that every day with our kids. We have the opportunity to do that every day in our business. We have the opportunity to do that in our words and the way we say things, um, is we have the opportunity to speak life, the Bible says, or we can speak death. And I think Joshua was a guy that chose to [00:20:00] speak life, and I think he learned that because of what we talked about a minute ago.

He chose to follow and to learn and to grow and to prepare way before he was ever put in the moment to transition, uh, into his le his his, uh, new role as the leader. The big word there you've used is chose. I, I hear choose because we have an option. You could choose good or evil. You could choose happiness or sadness.

So here, I guess my follow up to you is in your experience, I know from my experience as a coach, but I'd love your take first. Um, that is a learned skill. It's not like we are born inherently depressive. Something happens and we start to go down that. Road because everything you face, you can decide one way or the other.

It's black or it's white. Um, yep. So as a pastor, I, I want you to unpack that for me, please. Yeah. Well, again, I, I, I, my, my viewpoint of life and the world is gonna come from the Bible. So for those of us, I. You know, listening to the podcast, that [00:21:00] that's not your, that's not your moral compass. Mm-hmm. Um, I want you to hear this from, it still doesn't hurt to to hear this.

I, I don't, I I think one of the greatest things about our faith, mark, is the goal is, is that every day and every situation, every year, we, we look more like what God wants us to look like. So again, the question is then what does God want us to look like? So for me, I go if I'm emulating somebody, so if Joshua followed Moses, if you followed a coach for years and then you became a coach, if there's a professional golfer that had a mentor and a swing coach and somebody they followed, the goal is we look more like that person.

Yeah. Yeah. And as we continue to develop and continue to grow, well, for me, I wanna look more like God. And I think that's everybody's ultimate goal as a, a Christian is to look more like God. So then what? So what do you follow? You follow God's character. Um, and God's character is very clear in the Bible.

It's, it's the fruit of the spirit that when you say yes to God and God starts to develop your character, it's that it's love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, [00:22:00] goodness. Faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. So for me, those are the areas I'm always looking on at my life and going, how can I grow in my patients?

Um, I can have a, a teenage daughter. Um, how can I grow in my self-control? I can coach Little League coach pitch baseball. How can I grow in my joy? Uh, I can choose to put a smile on my face even when my circumstance for the day doesn't want me to do that. And I don't do that perfectly. You don't do that perfectly.

No. I think what we do and how we do that is we, we choose. To grow in our patients, we choose to grow in our peace. We choose to grow in our kindness. When somebody might wanna say something or comment on social media about us and they don't know us, it's easy to pop off. It's easy to respond. It's easy to put somebody else down.

It's harder to be patient and self-control kind. And gentle. And that's what makes us different than the rest of the world. Not better, just different and in some ways better. But it does make us different. And I do think [00:23:00] that's what people are attracted to you. They're attracted maybe to me they're attracted to a Christian in their workplace or their family because we do respond to things differently than the rest of the world might respond to them.

Yeah, that's so good. Um, personally and. As I approached that in 20 something years of being a college coach and you know, I've been teaching golf since Moby Dick was a minnow. I mean, 1995. I don't think you were born yet. Um, but that's an aside. Um, and. I, I always just was very like dollars and cents about the thing.

It's like it's, you either choose good or you choose bad. And it was very much a, a do thing. And it's like if you find your mind going or you sense your mind going wrong, you change your mind. It's like it was just a literal sort of a deal. And that's how I approached the whole thing. And in a way it was successful.

But when I learned about. The heart of God and the, the fruits of the spirit. It, it's like, [00:24:00] it was because of conscience that I work on becoming more patient because I'm not. It's because of the conscience within that little voice. Um, now I'm aware of it. I numbed, I dulled that so badly because I would like fly off the handle in the blink of an eye and not be very gentle.

Usually you laughing, so I I know, I know you, you can sympathize. We previously I was wrong there and I gotta be right now. It's like it's coming from a different place. And, and when I read about Joshua, it's like I. All of the stuff of his came from a different place. It wasn't that much head knowledge really.

I think there was a lot of, uh, a lot of spirit and soul to this. You agree? Well, I think that's why God's so cool. I mean, he called them fruits of the spirit because fruit has to grow. Yeah. So it's never, we're gonna attain the patience of God, or we're never going to attain the goodness of God, or we're never going to attain the.

The full peace of God, but we can grow in those and it's a lifelong journey. Um, it's [00:25:00] not something that we just wake up one day and, and we're there. Um, it's a lifelong journey to look, to look that way. Um, and yet you're not perfect at it. I'm not perfect at it, but the goal is each year, and here's a practical mark, every year I ask God, God, give me the fruit of the spirit this year that I'm going to need.

I'm going to need to grow in more than ever before. And for me, I print off all the verses about that fruit of the spirit. I look up books that I could read about that fruit of the spirit. I, I, um, find a podcast or two that talks a lot about that particular thing. If it's self-control, I'm gonna find the books about self-control.

I'm gonna print the Bible verses out about self-control. I'm gonna find a podcast that talks about self-control. 'cause I think God gave me that fruit of the spirit. One, I need to grow in it because two, I might need it. This year more than ever before with things I can't see. So it's just a great practical for people if you want to grow in that, um, that I do every year in January.

You've, you've touched a nerve there with me. Um, isn't it crazy how, if, and whoever's watching this, [00:26:00] whether you're a Christian or, or, or you're secular or nonbeliever or whatever, um. Yeah. Remember folks, you can interact with us on our social handles at the greater call. If you do want advice or prayer or something, Kyle certainly will reach out, um, or even practicals, mark, if they want a book on one of those, those characteristics.

I'll gladly give some recommendations to the two best books on Joy that I've ever read. Well, well, isn't it crazy how, like, when I've prayed for courage. It's not like I get some heavenly dump on my head. It's like I get put in situations where you have to exhibit courage and to that now. So here we are.

So there's the promised land with all of the land of milk and honey and the good stuff, and we've gotta cross the river. Jordan, I. In harvest season, which is when it's flooding. Okay. Yeah. It's not like God's like you go over there and just have a great time and I'm gonna just supernaturally pop a bridge up there in the middle of nowhere.

So you can waltz over there and now you're gonna go through the river [00:27:00] Jordan at the flood stage. And this is where that courage and that faith comes in. 'cause the first thing Joshua does is he prays to God and God gives him specific instructions. And you can talk about this, about how the arc of the covenant would go ahead, right?

But then talk about motivation, because I know that the entire tribe, well all the tribes of Israel, the thousands of them, I'm sure they've caught wind of what the other 10 Scouts had to say about the promised land. So now there's sort of this trepidation, there's fear, there's, there's anxiety, there's all that stuff we experience before we go into something big.

Even if we kind of know it's gonna be good, if we do well. Sure. And here Joshua gives the marching orders. And then he says to all the Israelite folks, he's like, consecrate yourself before we do this. So in other words, clean up your act a little bit. Get [00:28:00] right with God a little. And I was, and I read that verse over and over and over again, and I'm like, golly, how many times when I've been at the, the doorstep of something big, I.

Have I really just taken a minute to say, all right, God, let's, let's, let's, let's, forgive me of my stuff. Let's clean me up a little bit. Let me consecrate myself so that when I go into this, I'm of the right mindset, the right attitude, the right comportment, the whole thing, so I can go in there and make a difference as opposed to just going into the Promised Land and going, all right, bring it on.

Bring me the good stuff. Yeah, I, uh. You know what Joshua got the opportunity to see with Moses was how close Moses was to God through all of this, and I can't imagine that didn't become a part of Joshua's DNA that. As he got ready to cross, as he got ready to march, Jericho as he got ready to go into the promised land, that there weren't these moments where Joshua, you know, took a deep breath off to the side or got into his tent and prayed and, [00:29:00] and got, you know, I don't think he just walked into all this with natural courage.

I think it was supernatural courage because he was close to God. And, and I do think in a time of transition, you know, you have to lead with confidence. Um, and I. I think Joshua did that. I think he took the leadership shift for Moses and he led with confidence. Um, I think great leaders bring calm, uh, and clarity during transition.

Uh, they don't just fill shoes and forge ahead. I think they, they lead with confidence and bring clarity and calmness to the situation. I think Joshua did that. I think he told people, this is what we're doing. This is where we're going. Here's what you need to do for us to get there. And I think that's what people are looking for, is someone to lead with confidence when there's transition.

And then I think, um, I think Joshua trusted the process, um, even when it didn't make sense. You know, sometimes God will ask us to do things that doesn't make sense. But he watched Moses, as you said earlier, as he followed him as his shadow. And he, Moses did things that didn't make sense, but Moses trusted the process and God always came through.

And I think as Joshua was [00:30:00] asked to do things that maybe didn't make sense in the natural because of the history of following. He was able to trust the process and the presence and the present. And, um, I just think that there's such huge leadership, uh, components to transitional seasons. Lead with confidence and clarity.

Bring calmness, but also trust the process even when it doesn't make sense. I'm glancing through my Bible as you talk, and I. The crossing, the Jordan River, um, chapter three. Yeah, I, I've got more notes jotted down in the corner of the Apple pages than anywhere else, I think. And, and, and there was something else that struck me.

Um, the consecration of yourself in a way. It's, yeah, in a way it's preparation too. I mean, I, I, if you've got this great goal of, I don't know, um, winning the Masters, uh, it's fresh in my mind. Uh, there's significant preparation that goes into this. You as a leader or as a, if you wanna be a good dad like me, I wanna know from you remember that, [00:31:00] that, that book, what to Expect when Expecting when you were the expectant father that your wife would read.

Well, my wife read that thing from cover to cover twice. 'cause we had two kids. She gave me a copy and do you think I read any of that stuff? Uh, I would imagine that you wanted the Cliff Notes version of it. That's absolutely right. And I didn't even look at those. Anyhow, so, so here's the thing. So as I look back on it now, I'm wondering now, now it's not like when babies arrived that I was like completely headless, clueless, not knowing what to do.

It's, this is just, again, emblematic of any big endeavor one goes into. And parenthood could be like arguably the biggest one ever. That sometimes we just go in ill-equipped and that's a bad idea. It is, I think, I mean, I think this is a great place for you, mark, just to take two minutes and share a little bit of your story of, again, one of the reasons of wanting to do this podcast is you felt like God opened a door that didn't make sense.

Um, in light of, again, you were a, you were a good golfer, obviously, you know, [00:32:00] all American at Columbus State. You've coached golf, you gave great lessons, but like to have the door open to the opportunity that you've had, your story to me has been, it just in some ways didn't make sense, but you've trusted the process through that.

And I, I think it's just fun for you to share even, you know, how you've trusted that process. Moments of, you know, you had to learn from somebody, you had to follow somebody and learn, and you had to, you had to step in and be courageous in moments like, I'm, I'm interested to even hear about the first big tournament you ever called, because it's like, okay, I.

Here we were coaching at Columbus State, and now I'm calling the what tournament and just the process you had to trust to get there. Oh, a couple things. Fir first off, you, you know, as I look at the, the broadcast career and I look at this endeavor with a greater call alongside you, um, it's great to have someone belongs alongside that.

That's the first thing I'd say. Um, there's comfort in having a wing person, wing man, wing woman, whatever. Um. And as I embark on this thing, it's like when the [00:33:00] Israelites crossed the Jordan River into the Promised Land, it was at flood stage and everywhere the priests who were holding the Ark of the Covenant, when they put their foot down, the water would stop.

So it was like each step you take. It's, there's, there's provision, if you will. And, and so I, I found that throughout my, my broadcast career, because when I started in radio, I'd never done live radio before, not play by play. I'd, uh, I'd been on magazine shows and stuff where you get asked a question and you react.

I'd never had to watch anyone play something, then describe it for an audience. I'd never done it. Mm-hmm. So it was amazing how the producer, who's an expert. Um, Justin was his name, Justin Ware. Justin, if you listening, thank you. I in fact thanked him the other day 'cause he came up to me and he goes, man, you big time now with CBS.

I remember when is what he said to me. And that very first day live radio, I was sent out there with a microphone and I was [00:34:00] dispatched to a group and I've never called live golf. I've not done it. I don't know how I'd listened to people doing it. And he said to me, he goes, mark, go with your group. And when they're ready to play, tell me and we'll record every one of your shots and you just record your calls.

And so I did that and I did that and I didn't hear any playbacks. And then I heard them playback my first, and so they were just recording me, allowing me to learn on the fly, which is a great lesson in, in leadership, like in the heat of the battle. Protecting me enough or exposing me, but protecting me enough from a disaster.

Mm-hmm. There's a lesson in this, and then those got okay. And then he comes to me after a few hours, he goes, okay, you're gonna make a live call now. So now it's not like I get to throw the call away if it's record recorded and bad. So, so I, I cue him and they come to me for the live call. And it went [00:35:00] okay.

So I got a few live calls, a few recorded calls, and now he's just easing me deeper into the river. Yeah. Wow. And then a few hours later, he says to me, okay, mark, now this is all through my IFB, my earpiece. He says, okay, now when you're talking, I'm going to ask you to toss it to somebody. So while I'm calling Kyle Jackson over the putt, I'm in my ear going, okay, toss it to Bill Rasinski.

Who was my fellow announcer, and now you've got one direction coming in here and you're trying to talk about something else. It's a weird skill. And so then, so we did this and I fumbled out the toss, but it worked and we got better. So now I'm kind of grooving a little bit. Now I'm going down the road.

And then he said to me, okay, now this is gonna be crazy to you, but we are gonna start playing back some of your calls while you finishing the call. So instead of just recording it and playing it a few seconds later, they started playing it back when I was finishing my call. So I'm talking to [00:36:00] you and in my head I'm saying what I've just said a second ago.

Mm-hmm. And, and, and like I said, it's a less lesson in leadership where it's exposure whilst protecting, and then each time just another step forward and another step forward and not bulldozing your way in there. It's kind of just easing your way in and, and that was the start. And then the whole thing's ended here.

Now I've just decided, because I couldn't resist the noise inside that I had to now take, because I always felt like there was something more like Joshua, perhaps, where it's like, okay, now I've gotta express my faith and yet still teach people. Not just golf, but life. Because in the end, yeah, we might be good golfers, but we are human beings first.

Right? We might be great business people, but we're human beings first. And, that's where I think this whole thing is. It's, it's the human element where a lot of people are falling short, especially [00:37:00] successful leaders. And, and that's where that, that was the origin of, of the show with you and me. Well, I think you know what I heard in all of that, and we'll jump back into Joshua and finish this up, is none of us are where we are without somebody else coming alongside of us.

And I think what we can forget sometimes is early in our careers, I. You know, I've got the same story of, you know, how to write a message, how to lead a, how to lead an environment, how to lead a room, how to lead from a stage like I, all of that was protected and, and I grew through that in smaller environments with great feedback.

You know, great leaders are, they, they love great feedback. It's the only way to get better, and, but none of us are where we are without somebody else's belief in us and somebody else's tutelage or. Um, feedback to us, and then I just, I think we have to remember even when we get to where you're at, mark or wherever we, wherever that is for you listening, wherever you, whenever you get to that, we can't forget to still bring those voices alongside of us.

Um, I think that's one of the biggest things we miss is that, you know, Joshua followed Moses [00:38:00] for a period of life, and then he stepped into leadership, but Joshua still needed people alongside him. During that journey to help him get better. I still need it. You still need it. Every leader listening to this still needs it.

Any PGA player needs somebody to still come alongside them. It's fun to watch. Rory. The moment that every golfer has when they win something is the first hug they give to is their caddy because they know they couldn't do it without somebody, even when they're at the pinnacle of what they do. They still need somebody alongside them to make them better.

Yeah. I, I wanna pose the question then too, 'cause I want to quickly kiss, um, Jericho, because that story was crazy too, and you can all find this in the book of Joshua. Um, but first the question is. To all of us aspirant leaders is that not necessarily just who we learning from, but who are we mentoring?

You know? That's great. Instead of just being like a consumer, being like, I've learned these lessons, now let's keep passing them on kind of deal. So, so who I wanna say to folks, leaders, aspirant leaders, dads, moms, who is your [00:39:00] Joshua? Who can you continue this legacy by? By empowering the next leader with more than what you had?

I think that's the big question of life too. Well, the most effective, you know, the, the mo, one of the most, um, uh, effective ways as a leader to continue to grow is, I've always said it this way, mark, you should always have somebody up. Mm-hmm. You should always have somebody beside, and you should always have somebody down.

You should always have somebody you're learning from. You should always have somebody you're learning with, and you should always have somebody you're teaching and that's just a great place to be. Learning from somebody that's ahead of you processing it and learning together with someone that's in the same season while also pouring it into the next generation beneath you.

It's very fulfilling to be learning, growing, and teaching at the same time. Yeah. Okay, Jericho. So now we are into Israel. I'm gonna run a few min, a minute or two over. Um, humor me. We in Israel. God says, I have given you Jericho. This is God. Seeing this is a big walled city. And Joshua, [00:40:00] uh, Josh, he goes to Joshua.

I've given you Jericho if you do this. And this is amazing how I can imagine. I'm the leader of this band of people and there's a big city, big walls around it. And I'm like, yeah, those walls, they're gonna fall down in front of you. If you march around here diligently seven days in a row, and on the seventh day, do it seven times and scream out my name at the end, and the walls will fall down.

You'll take the city. I'm like, geez, really? I mean, uh, I, God, I trust you and all, but this looks like just a bridge too far. But then in the back of my mind, I've got this. Because God said to Joshua all the time, and I am you in saying this to the viewer and the listener, be strong and be courageous. Be strong and courageous, because there's gonna be that time when it looks like there's these massive walls in front.

And if you just keep doing the right thing and if you courageous about it and you keep doing it, the walls will fall down so you get the parting shut. Yeah. Well, I think, I mean, I think God's always gonna ask, do things that are unconventional. Um, [00:41:00] there is no playbook to following God. There's no playbook on his plan and future for your life other than being obedient.

We've talked about that a lot in some of the other podcasts, and I think that's what Joshua did. He, he was given unconventional strategies to do something, but he followed it. And then really the non-negotiable for Joshua was courage. And that's why you do hear a lot of the verses from Joshua, be strong and courageous.

Um, and I think every person, every leader. Uh, face those fears and pressures. Um, but what separates great leaders, what separates people that continue to move forward, uh, is their ability to act, uh, decisively. I. Even when they face those unconventional moments, the fear that comes with that, uh, the ability to still act decisively, um, in those moments is what separates great leaders from others.

And I think that's what Joshua did. He was given an unconventional strategy. It didn't make sense, but he trusted the process. He saw that God always came through for Moses. He, and then he acted with confidence, even though it didn't make sense. And then he [00:42:00] chose courage over fear. And I think that's why he has a book of the Bible named after him, is that he was just willing to do things, others weren't.

He was willing to see the glass half full. He was willing to learn and grow through the process. And ultimately, he chose courage over fear. And I think that's just something great for all of us to hear. Whatever you're facing today, where there's a little bit of fear, get into a room, ask God for courage that's beyond your natural courage, and choose your faith over your fear, and there's always something great on the other side.

Okay, and then just to put a bow on Joshua. Um, through it all, Joshua 24 15. But as for me and my house, we'll serve the Lord. So the Lord comes first and then toward the end of the chapter, it's chapter 13 at the start, Joshua's now aged and God comes to you and goes, Joshua, you're very old, but there's still work to do.

So I'm gonna say on. Age is only a number. Anything's possible. Be strong, courageous. Just because you're old, that [00:43:00] doesn't mean you can't. You might be very old, but go and do it. Um, thank you for downloading this one. Thanks for sharing this with your friends. Do please follow us on social. The handles are at the greater call.

This is available on YouTube. Search and subscribe over there. Search for the greater call. You can see Kyle's handsome mug wearing his master's cap. And then of course. Whatever you do, be strong. Be courageous and go and be a legend.