The Greater Call Podcast - Episode 6: Timid Hero

In this powerful episode, Mark Immelman and Pastor Kyle unpack the story of Gideon—the unlikely military leader who went from hiding in a winepress to leading Israel to victory with only 300 men. Known for his timidity, Gideon's journey is a testimony to how God calls out our potential, even when we don’t see it in ourselves.

Through candid conversation and spiritual insight, they explore key leadership lessons from Judges 6–8, including:

• How God qualifies the called—not the other way around
• Why faith doesn’t require perfection, just obedience
• What real humility looks like in leadership
• How success can test our character more than failure
• Why obedience often precedes understanding

Whether you’re leading a team, a household, or simply your own journey, this episode will encourage you to say "yes" even when you're unsure, and to lead with bold humility.

Key Verses Mentioned:
Judges 6:12 — “The Lord is with you, mighty warrior.”
Hebrews 11:1 — “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
Ephesians 4:29 — “Only speak what is helpful for building others up.”

Takeaways:
➡ Great leaders often emerge from unlikely places.
➡ Faith doesn’t eliminate fear—it gives you courage to obey anyway.
➡ True leadership is rooted in humility and trust in God’s strength, not your own.

Connect with Us:
📱 Instagram + X: @thegreatercall
📺 YouTube: The Greater Call
💬 DM us for prayer, book recommendations, or just to say hey!

Connect with Us:

📲 Follow us on social media: @TheGreaterCall (Instagram, FaceBook, YouTube, & X)
🎥 Subscribe on YouTube: Search ‘The Greater Call Podcast’
📩 DM us for prayer requests, leadership advice, or to share your story!

Website→ https://markimmelman.com/the-greater-call/

✨ Be full of joy in all things, no matter where you are. Be thankful. Go and be a legend! ✨

Transcript

TGC- Episode 6: Gideon Timid Hero

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Greater Call Podcast, your place to go for lessons on life and leadership, and just how to be a legend as we look at the lives of some of the great heroes of our faith alongside Pastor Kyle Jackson. I'm Mark Ulman. Kyle, welcome buddy. How are you? Mark. So good to see you, my friend. Doing great.

Doing great. Yeah. Episode six, A timid hero, Gideon, this guy, I want your commentary. This man, um, was listed in Hebrews 11, which is kind of the biblical hall of faith. Yeah. You get your name in there alongside like Moses and Abraham and company like that. Uh, this, this is big time faith over here. Yeah, no, he's a big deal.

So you don't, you don't end up in the, uh, hall of fame of anything, uh, without having some, uh, having a pretty good story. So it's gonna be fun to dive into today. I think it's gonna encourage people some different thoughts in the last couple episodes, uh, just based on how he got, uh, to the Hall of Fame. He didn't get there necessarily based on talent [00:01:00] alone.

A lot of the Hall of Fames we think of it's because of how talented they were. Uh, he ended up in the Hall of Fame for different reasons. Before we go anywhere folks, just remember we are available on social. The handles are at the greater call on Instagram and on x search and subscribe for us on YouTube, the greater call over there.

Give us a nice review if you're so lead. Okay. Uh, the timid hero. G in, uh, quickly about the man Kyle, and that'll let you tell the story real fast. Um, member of the Hebrews 11 Hall of Faith, Israel's fifth judge. He's a keen military strategist, but more than anything, he was a guy to me who was not really equipped for the task that he was given by God Almighty.

So give us the quick story of the background as to how this transpired. Yeah, well, I mean, if you, uh, if you wanna read it, it's in the book of judges, uh, towards the front of your Bible. Uh, judges chapter six, and you can kind of track from there. But Gideon was a judge of Israel, [00:02:00] um, and he was chosen by God, uh, during a time where really the Israelites, God's people were oppressed and were struggling.

Um, and initially when he was chosen, very fearful, um, was actually, you know, found hiding. Uh, doubting his ability, uh, and even ask God multiple times for signs. Like, you know, Hey, if you really want me to do this, I need you to show me and prove to me mm-hmm. That I'm the guy. So there's this like, famous test that he does to kind of confirm that, you know, God's calling the right person to do it.

And then once he figures out that he was empowered to, to lead. Uh, the story that most people know, if you're familiar with Bible study and if you're not, an incredible story to read, just to build your faith in whatever it is that you're doing. As, uh, he took an army of about 300 men and he defeated this massive army, uh, really demonstrating, uh, the victory that came from God.

Not just human strength, but when God's on your side. You can do anything. A story of 32,000 soldiers down to 300 men who weren't even soldiers. He basically kept eliminating men that [00:03:00] didn't wanna fight and took 300 men into battle against this massive army, which makes no sense. Which, you talked about this in other stories that we've talked about.

The previous podcast, you, you say it. Yeah. God just does the, what do you say? He doesn't? He qualifies the, and is another story like this. Hundred percent. So, you know, Gideon was hesitant at first, but uh, his faith grew like all the Bible characters we've talked about. Uh, and he really became this courageous leader.

And then we'll talk about this at the end, but however. Uh, even though he saw God do so much in his life, he is human, like all of us. And sometimes we can think we're the person, uh, that brought that victory instead of God coming alongside us. So really the story ends with him where he gets this warning.

Uh, and really the warning is you got to stay hu, you got to stay humble. Even on the backside of success. So just an amazing character, incredible story. Again, even if you're not a, a Bible reader or a Christ follower and you just like good stories, you gotta go read the story of Gideon specifically, where he goes from 32,000 to [00:04:00] 300 men and still wins.

I think it'll encourage you no matter what it is that you're leading or a part of. We're gonna kiss that story in a minute. Because the funny thing is they didn't even have to lift a muscle, right. The Midianite Army because of God's intervention basically killed themselves. But I'll get there in a minute.

Quickly, Gideon, the character to me, and I, I'm gonna read this to you. Yeah. And this is my summary and I want you to elaborate. Um. As I looked upon the guy, it occurred to me that God uses and expands the abilities we born with because this man was living in a time where the Midianites had taken captive of Israel.

They had oppressed everyone, and folks were in hiding for fear of their life, and he was essentially, he. Converted a wine press into a place where he was threshing wheat just to provide for his family. Um, so I, I would almost say that he had limited vision as well, because then this angel of God shows up to him and says, mighty warrior take heart.

You know, God has selected you. And he's like, yeah, whatever. Um, but I, [00:05:00] but I, I want to say this, despite the doubt. There's a verse in judges six, and again, the story is just three chapters, six, seven, and eight in judges, and it goes like this. And the angel, now he's in the threshing floor, hiding away, providing for his family, and the angel of the Lord appears to Gideon and says The Lord is with you.

Mighty warrior. Mm-hmm. Now, okay, so here's the thing. I can only imagine. That if a angel shows up in my doorstep and goes, the Lord is with you mighty warrior, I'd be like, holy cow. Um, is this for real? Which Ian kind of did, but then I'd be thinking. Am I really a mighty warrior? Is that what God sees? Yeah.

So, so this is where I want to kick it off because if I draw inspiration from the story, that's exactly what it is. It's like, here's little old Gideon me. I could be being called a mighty warrior by [00:06:00] the creator of the heavens and the earth. Yeah. Well, I think anybody that's listening today, I think that's one of the greatest qualities of God, uh, is that he never sees us where we are.

He sees us where we could be. Um, I would even say it, you know, this way God sees potential, not just your present. Um, he doesn't see your present reality. He sees. You know, he sees what he created you for. He, he sees the best version of you. I think oftentimes, mark, we think that God sees the weakest version of us.

And God actually, I think God sees the best version of us. Um, and I think that's why in Judges chapter six, you know, the angel shows up and says, the Lord is with you, mighty warrior. 'cause really, as you dig into the story, Gideon actually saw himself as the weakest. The smallest tribe, but God calls him mighty warrior, which doesn't make sense in the natural.

We read that verse and we think, you know, because God knows what's gonna happen. He calls a mighty warrior. But what God's doing in that moment is he's just speaking to his potential 'cause he knows Gideon sees himself as someone weak in the smallest tribe. So to call him up, he called him [00:07:00] up. And I think one of the greatest things we can do in leadership, and I, again, you do a great job of this, I feel like I learned from you.

You always call people up. You always speak to people's potential. You always see the best in somebody. You always, it's like, it's like I, it's like I'm walking around with a sign around my neck that says, encourage me is what Mark Immelman does. And I think if we all lived our life like that and just saw our spouses, our friends, our coworkers, our children.

And just saw them with a sign around their neck. I think John Maxwell says that like picture people with a sign around their neck that says, encourage me, call me up. Ephesians four twenty nine says, do not let any unwholesome talk come outta your mouth, but only what's helpful for building others up. Uh, and I think, man, our culture has lost that, haven't we?

Like we would rather call somebody down, pull somebody down, belittle somebody, tell them what they're not great at, instead of calling them a mighty warrior. And I think the leadership insight. Is that great leaders often emerge from unlikely places, don't they? I mean, that's your story. Uh, that's my story leading where I get to lead.

That's so many stories [00:08:00] of the Bible that we've already talked about in previous podcasts. But God sees, uh, in us what we don't see in ourselves. Uh, and I think that he sees our identity, our calling, uh, and our greatness. Uh, and sometimes the world can, can allow us not to see that. But God sees our potential, not our present reality.

Well, it. What you say there, and it jugs my mind where it's like Gideon didn't just see himself in the situation. He saw his little clan, his tribe of Manasa, and he was like, well, we just little. So it wasn't just me. He's like, Hey, the group of us, we just kind of non achievers. We, we, the nothings, we the folks in the side of the room, you know, the other Judah and Reuben and those sorts of crowd, they're the big dogs around the block and we're nuts.

And, and then, and sort of gets me to thinking, you know. I might think inside in my spirit, my soul over here that I'm a mighty warrior. But you know what? It's so easy, Kyle, to take the path of least resistance. Now I'm putting myself in Gideon's shoes to say, [00:09:00] okay, I'm just gonna sit the side. I'm gonna sit the sidelines on this one.

I'm sure someone else will pick up the slack. And essentially. Now in the story, it goes, say, looks at the angel of God and says, okay, I'm, prove it to me. I'm gonna go away and I'm gonna get something to sacrifice. And so then it goes, and here's the verse, uh, again, um, uh, and the verse goes, go in, go in the strength you have.

Mm. And save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you? Now, I, I, I jump ahead a little bit because this is after he's tested the angel, but first he tests the angel and he comes back and the angel sets the ultra of light and he's like, okay, this is for real. And then he says, now go, God. That says, am I not sending you?

And then I'm like on the sidelines, like the coach wanting to send me in and they look all so big and stuff, and, and now I've just gotta like sack up and go and do it, even though I've gotten this word inside from what I feel like is my creator. So help me. [00:10:00] Pastora. Oh man. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's so hard and I, I wonder how people, you know, that don't have a faith, you know, mark, like you and I have.

Take on risks like that, take on challenges like that. 'cause anything in life worth doing is gonna, is gonna require great risk and great faith. Mm-hmm. Um, anything, uh, I think we all would prefer to drift into the status quo. We all would prefer to play it stay safe naturally, but you know, that's not God's plan for our life.

And I think God often uses less to accomplish more sometimes. And I think we think we have to have more in our hands. I think we use excuses like well. When I'm a little older, when I have a little more money. When I'm married, when I've got my degree, yeah. When my children grow up and get outta the house, when I get that next degree, then I'll, and God's not looking for, uh, all of that.

God's looking for somebody that's available. I think the, the word available is, is not a word that we think about in leadership, but I often think about, you [00:11:00] know, your availability and your ability to build relationships with people is often what God uses to open doors to do the more in your life. But we tend to stay busy with a lot of other things that maybe aren't as important, instead of making ourself available to other things, uh, that God could use to open doors for the calling that he has in our life, the dreams that we have in our heart.

So, again, I, I think, I think it's easy to make excuses, but usually God's best for your life is on the other side of your most often used excuse. Mm-hmm. Oh, yes. Well, well, look, here's where it is, right? So. He's listed as one of the heroes of the faith. Yeah. I'm going there with a faith thing now, and this is so heartening to me because this is a timid man.

He's introduced to us as someone hiding away. Yeah. He's introduced admittedly, he goes, but I'm just little old Gideon from the little tribe of Manasa. I'm really a nothing. And God's like, no, you're a something. And, and this, so now, um, God passes Gideon's [00:12:00] first test, right? And then the next challenge comes along and I keep on what's heartening to me, Kyle, and I'd love you to elaborate, is that in the Bible it talks about having faith, the side of size of a mustard seed.

Now he has a man who was recognized for his faith, but he questioned God three times. Because the second time now, he questions God. God goes, okay, now go and do this. And he said, but first I need to double check is what he's essentially saying. He goes, now I'm going to leave this piece of fleece in the barn outside.

And when I wake up in the morning, I want the fleece to be wet with morning dew and the ground around it must be dry. Wakes up. Lo and behold, it's that way. And then he goes, okay, well that's not enough. God, tomorrow morning I wanna wake up and I want the fleece to be dry and the ground around it must be wet with the morning dew done.

And then all of a sudden now he turns into like, whoa, bold, [00:13:00] Gideon Army leader, military strategist, and it's like. It was faith this big. Mm-hmm. Because yeah, he's questioning God Almighty. Mm-hmm. They call it the angel of God, met him first and called him Mighty Warrior, but that's Jesus. Yes. Yes. So he is met God three times and he is like.

Prove it to me. Prove it to me. Prove it to me. And eventually he is like, okay, I'll take the job. Are you feeling where I'm going here? No. That's why I love the Bible, mark. I think people should read it more, and I know it can be hard to understand and, and again, we'd love to help you with that on the greater call.

We'd love to. Give you resources to make how to understand your Bible, you know, instead of just opening it up and aimlessly reading it. I think there's some ways to read it that would really encourage you. My favorite thing about the Bible is I think, we think all these people in the Bible just said yes to God.

Every time you ask 'em to do something. Uh, or they, you know, the way God told 'em to do it is exactly how they did it. And they did it right and they were perfect. And they were these like, like they were these dudes that walked around in white. [00:14:00] Gowns and never did anything wrong and did everything right the first time.

And just, my gosh, like read your Bible. People like Peter, who Jesus said, I'm gonna build the church on that 2000 plus years later, is still, in my opinion, the greatest and longest lasting organization on planet Earth in the history of our world. Peter denied Jesus three times after walking the closest to him, uh, Thomas.

They call him doubting Thomas in the Bible. He made Jesus show him the holes in his hands and the. The spear in his side before he would believe that Jesus was actually there with him. You got Gideon who wanted him to prove before he would actually go do what he was told. So the beautiful thing about the Bible and the beautiful thing about God is that there's a lot of grace I.

There's a lot of grace to what God asks you to do. Uh, but when God asks you to do it, you can deny it. You can, you can doubt it. You can say, prove it, but eventually, if you'll just say, yes, the greatest parts of your life are on the other side of your Yes. Yeah. Well, you know, in my head it's [00:15:00] swirling now because in our last show, if you haven't seen it, folks, go check it out.

The story of Joshua. When they crossed the river Jordan in flood stage, each step they took, uh, the Jordan, they had to step into the river before the water stopped moving to let them cross. Um, and then I think of. Every other hero we've dealt with so far and, and just a little, I think every hero will deal with moving forward.

Yeah. Well there's a theme to every story. Well, a peek behind the scenes folks. Um, I just got back from a trip and Kyle's obviously busy with these duties at Church of the Highlands, and so I texted him at 4:00 AM this morning saying, Hey, Kyle. Yes, we're recording Moses. He goes, I thought we were doing Gideon.

So, so here's the thing. So I'm gonna preamble Moses to say the same thing. This is a man who was a murderer. Um, he stands in front of the bird burning bush. And the burning bush says to him, you're on holy ground. Remove your shoes, consecrate yourself. And this bush is [00:16:00] talking to him and he goes, but I can't, Lord, I'm slow of speech and I stutter and sit, et cetera, et cetera, and God's like off with you.

You're gonna do it anyway, and I'll send Aaron alongside you to help you out. Yeah. And, and, and, and, and to me, again, it's just this beautiful picture of faith. And in a way, Gideon to me, like a child. I also know from the New Testament that Jesus says, you know, suffer the little children to come unto me and to inherit the kingdom of heaven.

You gotta be like a child. And I can imagine little childish, Gideon going, prove it to me. I'm scared. Prove it to me again. And God's like, okay, Gideon, I've picked you for this job and I'm humoring you 'cause you are going to do it eventually. Uh, I mean actually it a good old picture of parent. It's like parenthood, isn't it?

Well, it's our stories. I mean, I, you, I mean, I'm, you could probably sit for an hour on this podcast and talk about the record that played in your head when you got asked to join CBS. I mean, surely there's somebody that was a better golfer. Surely there's somebody [00:17:00] qualified. Surely there's somebody that's, you know, I did the same thing.

I mean, I, I wasn't the greatest student that's ever come through a college. I was a very average student to ever to go lead anything of any influence or any size. You know, I, yeah, I feel underqualified for, luckily for me, I get to be a part of a church that's way bigger than the role I get to play in it.

Um, but we all question, you know, when, if you get, if I get asked to speak at something, I'm like, man, surely there's somebody better to do that. Surely there's somebody better with their words. I mean, you correct me on my grammar all the time, context. Like, but surely that's a part of your story. I mean, give give the, give the 62nd version of the first, you know, six days after you got asked to do what you're doing today.

I'm sure it wasn't just like, oh gosh, when were they gonna ask? Finally, they finally, they saw this in me. Like, surely there was some doubt and some, uh, some questioning as, uh, Gideon did in the story as well. I, and, and I'm so glad you would say, you know, because we're doing this thing and we are looking at these heroes.

And the one thing I know, and you know, too from being in sports, I, I get to spend [00:18:00] time around Tiger Woods, Rory McElroy, those sorts of guys, Scottish Scheffler. Yeah. Uh, just a couple weeks. He's decent. Uh, who was, he played like a biblical being when he won in Dallas. I mean, I mean, it was, it was miraculous.

What? He, we were talking about it last night. I'm like, they were like, yeah, but the course has wide open fairways, and, and I was like, right. And so, and every other player had wide open fairway. Uh, yeah. But, but so easy. Hey. But even in that moment, it's so easy to downplay someone's success. Well, we can, the, we can downplay our own.

We can downplay others. Like it's just, it's interesting how our mind thinks about success. Yeah. But if, but if you, but you use the word encourage and, and I just wanna say this, I want you to come in on the heels of it. Um. You talked about these guys, these heroes of our faith, you think of the heroes and they're not these like other worldly beings.

These were just guys like you and me and girls, like [00:19:00] whoever's watching this too. When we get to some of the, the, the, the, the women of our faith. Um, and I can imagine Gideon, no, look now, now God's. Approved it three times. He goes, all right, I'm in. And then now he's assembling the army of 32,000 people.

You've kissed this, and it's time now to go and take on this Midianite army. And it's described in the Bible. I I, I don't have it, uh, readily handily here, but I'm gonna paraphrase and say that this army of filled an entire valley. So it's not this little battalion. No, this is a mass of human beings.

Hundred percent. And they've been ravaging Israel and now there's Gideon with 32,000 people. And God goes, no, no, I, I don't want people to think that they've done this of their own volition. I want people to know that I was involved with this and I'm, uh, I'm taking the liberty of speaking like God here.

And he goes, you need to cut that army and off. Which he duly does. 'cause now he's filled with faith [00:20:00] 'cause he is had the thing proved three times GI and then God goes, nah, still too big. Let's make this 300. And you've gotta test them to see which of these men, how they drink water from the river down the way there.

Do they bend down and pick up water in their hands and lap it like a dog? Or do they go down and drink the water? Bowing with their mouth? Those were the folks that really weren't military warriors, right? Right. There's 300 guys getting head in eventually to go to battle. Were just guys like you and me.

Um, and I'm kind of looking at this going, here's the hero of the faith going, I. Gosh, God. 300 guys valley full of people over here. Weapons and we've got rams horns. 'cause we'll talk about how they did it in a minute. The human being over there, I don't care how much faith you have, I mean the adrenaline must be pumping.

He must be sitting in his tent. 'cause they attacked. They're attacked. And I use that term loosely [00:21:00] at night going. Good. What have I signed myself up for here? Because you can imagine what it feels like within, inside your mind, your body. Oh, no. I mean, uh, yeah. It's, it's an, it's again, the Bible's such a cool book.

I mean, the stories are, are wild. Like you think you've watched some good movies, just go read some of these stories. Like they're, they're amazing. I think for me, when I, when I hear that and I think about people, mark, I think, you know, once you've been leading and, and you've been following God for a while, I.

You, you know, this isn't the first time you've been asked to do something that's, that's wild like that. And I think leaders, I think, I think Christian leaders, people that really have a faith in God, big faith in God, they learn that that God's strategy often denies human logic. I. Um, and again, I think we all like to shift towards logic, but god's, it's, there's never been anything logical about, you know, five, five loaves of bread and two fish.

Mm-hmm. Like five plus two is seven, and, but then he ends up feeding thousands of people. Like there's never been anything logical about God's [00:22:00] math. I mean, three, 300 against an entire valley. Full of people. So I would say, you know, for those of you who listening to the podcast, you think you have a big dream, you have a big idea, you have something big that you feel like's in your heart or that you've been dreaming about or seeing in your head.

I would say it's not about the size of your dream, but it's about the strength of your trust in God. Mm-hmm. Um, if you want the dream to come a reality, build your trust in God, however you would do that, whether it's through reading the Bible, whether it's trying some smaller things and asking God to show you some signs like Gideon did, but do something to build your faith because the size of your dream is.

Small to God, although it might feel big to you, it's small in God's economy. It's really about your, your strength and your trust in God to see that dream become a reality because God's logic is, is very different than our hu our human logic is very different than God's strength and power and ability.

Yeah. I feel led to ask you to describe. What faith is, because once again, through all this, like you, like correctly say [00:23:00] God's strategy defies logic. Mm-hmm. You know, 'cause logic, we can see it, we can feel it, it makes sense, we can see, we can see the ledger, we can see the data. Well the decisions easier because the odds are in our favor.

Mm-hmm. Like all of these stories, the odds were essentially against everybody. And that's where the faith of it comes in. So, so describe. What is faith at its root? Kyle. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, the Bible. I think it's, um, it's Hebrews mark, uh, Hebrews 11, you know, now faith is the substance of things hoped for.

Um, the evidence of things not seen. Yeah. So I think again, logic is things that are seen four plus four equals eight. Mm-hmm. Faith is there's thousands of people to be fed and there's two fish and five loaves of bread. Like, I can't see how this is going to happen. I. But I have faith and trust that [00:24:00] God's going to come through in a way that I can't in my natural strength.

So from a Christian perspective, I think faith is believing in God's character and his promises, um, his power, regardless of the circumstance. Um, I think that if you think that, I think that if you, if you can come up with the answer, I would say, then your faith is small. Okay. If you can come up with something, if you can come up with the game plan, if you can come up with the the business plan.

Then you can ask God to be a part of that. But, you know, asking the question, is it faith filled? I would say if you have all the answers and you have it all lined up and you know how you're gonna win, then that might not be faith. That might just be, um, talent. That might just be intellectual ability. That might just be you.

Mm-hmm. And the team of people around you. But if you can't seem to come up with the answer, but you know God's called you to do it, then that would be faith things hoped for, evidence of things not seen. It's how [00:25:00] I would define faith. Mm. I watched this really cool thing on a, the flight this morning coming back about prayer.

'cause now I'm thinking of the aspirant business person or the, you know, someone listening to this or watching this going, okay, I'm hearing you, but uh, you know, I still gotta have some idea of what's going on. So this is where the prayer comes in, right? Yes. It's so good. I mean, that's how you should define it.

If you don't have to pray about it, I'm not sure it's. It's you, you need faith. Like if you're, if you're nervous enough about it that it takes you to prayer, then it might, that might be the, the things that are, you're tipping towards. This is a faith thing, not a talent thing. Well, this, this may sound infantile, but humor me for a second.

So Gideon is talking to God. Hmm. Communication com. Prayer is essentially communication with God. Gideon was praying in our modern vernacular. Am am I, am I wrong in my, in [00:26:00] my childish arithmetic here? No, not at all. Not at all. I mean, I, I, I love how you defined even prayer right there. I think prayer can be very intimidating to people, but we communicate with people all day, right?

Mm-hmm. Like you communicate with me through text, you communicate to your wife through phone call. We communicate through coworkers face to face. But you know, we've made prayer, so like. Holy and hard and right words to say and New King James version. If I don't say the words right, God's not.

Prayer is just conversation with God. Like, it can feel weird if you want it to, or it can feel very easy if you want it to. So I do think, you know, again, going back to that thought of faith, mark, if you don't have to pray about it, it's not faith. Yeah. Like it's, if it drives you to, to pray, whether you're a, a regular prayer, prayer person, or you never pray at all, but it drives you to prayer, then I think you might answer the question, man, this is, this is requiring faith, not just what I'm able to do.[00:27:00] 

Mm. So Gideon is known as the Keen Military Strategist for this credible victory, outmanned 300 versus hundreds of thousands. Yeah. Um, but God essentially gave him the marching orders. Say, okay, you and your boys, you're gonna go in the in dark of night. I'm gonna go before you. And then, uh, it's almost like God's got a sense of humor, right?

Because he, in the Bible, um, in the, the, uh, the translation I was reading, um, God says something to the effect of, and, and get close enough so that you can hear the Midianites speaking so that you can hear that they scared of you. All right. And, and, and Gideon's like, well, okay, cool. We'll do this. So he, he moves the flanks around the army like this, and they've all got a rams horn.

And all they've gotta do in the middle of the night at the right time when Gideon gives the orders, we come in the name of God Almighty. Everyone blows the rams horn and shouts and screams. [00:28:00] And then God's got the rest. That's the coolest story, right? Um, and so Gideon, they slink up there and I can imagine they're like little Marines where they're night vision goggles and stuff, and he lands in the air and he hears these two Midianites talking.

And the story goes that the one Midianite says to the the other, I had this dream about this huge, I'm gonna get it wrong, but like a loaf of bread rolling down the hill that crushed all of us. Mm. And I stopped there. Now again, I, I, I was reading this at 4:00 AM in the morning, folks, if I'm paraphrasing, forgive me and I get it wrong, but I'm like, Brad, I've heard this before.

I'm like, ask three times, deny three times. I've heard this before with Peter. So there's all of these correlations across the Bible where Jesus is known as the bread of life. Yeah. Correct? Oh, yeah, a hundred percent. So essentially this guy has a dream. The bad guy of the [00:29:00] bread of life rolling down the hill, crushing everybody.

So basically this was God Almighty rolling down the hill, causing mayhem amongst the troops. As soon as Gideon goes, we come in the name of the Lord and then the other troops go and get in. And the Midianites turn on each other. Yeah, they're freaked out. Panic. They start killing each other. And that got me thinking.

I'm like, wow. The mindset of something when you panic, their heads went wrong. Right. And then I just, I, I can't get over the fact that it was the bread that rolled down the hill that knocked these people out. Hmm. Okay. Pastor, have a go. I, I've, I've, oh my gosh, I don't know, mark, because it's a, it's a cool story.

It's a wild story. Um, and I think it's, you know, one of the, one of the names of God is that he is the banner of victory. Niecy. JoVE and Niecy. Yeah. Yes. Which means he is, you know, the banner of [00:30:00] victory is, you know, that's the person on a horse with the flag out in front of the rest of the army saying, you know, I, I, this is who I, this is who I am.

And God says, this is who I am. I'm a, I'm a banner of victory. I'm always out in front of you fighting your battles, if you will obey me. And I think even in that vision, you know, I'd have to go research that a little bit, mark on maybe a deeper meaning to that. But it's almost as if like God was saying Gideon, because you're doing what I asked you to do, I need you to know I'm out in front of you fighting your battles.

Yeah. Like I'm out in front of you. Like you are going to be victorious because you've been obedient. Not because you're a great warrior or not because you have a great strategy, but because you're obedient, I need you to know I'm out in front of you fighting your battles and you will be victorious. Uh, so here it is.

Uh, I didn't misread it at 4:00 AM Look at you. Yeah. Verse 13, judges seven, a round loaf of barley bread kept tumbling down into the Midianite camp. It struck the tent with such force that the tent overturned and collapsed. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And to that too, I'm thinking. And, and now Gideon [00:31:00] was known as a, as a judge and there were 40 years of peace in Israel while he was, 'cause at that stage there were no kings.

There were judges over Israel. He was this military strategist, a man of great faith, and so everything he sort of, I guess, wanted to become deep down that he didn't tell anyone about because he was obedient to God. Yes, right. Then he gets all of the accolades. Yep. That, that to me is the beauty of what you point out over there.

Oh, absolutely. I think, you know, when you get into judges, chapter eight, judges eight, you know, the people wanted to make Gideon King, but he refused. Yeah. Um, in that season, he was celebrating the wins. He was celebrating what God was doing. He was making it about God. He, he was staying humble, honestly. Um, 'cause success is the number one key to, uh, to humility being killed in your life.

Success is the thing that. That pride, you know what brings pride into your life? That even though we know as leaders, that it's the team around [00:32:00] me that makes me successful. As soon as the accolades come, we want it to be about us. Or do we want it to be about the team? Can we give credit away? Or do we have to take credit for ourselves?

And I think, you know, in this part of, of Gideon's story, he was, he rem, he was reminded of who he was. He remembered who he was, and he remembered that all of the success had come from God. So we find him in judges chapter eight, just celebrating the wins, staying humble. He refused to become king. And uh, the leadership lesson there is that success brings temptation.

You know this, the more successful we are, the more temptation that comes into our life. But great leaders, godly leaders, we deflect the glory I. Uh, back to God. And we try to stay grounded in our purpose. As soon as we get pride slipping in thinking we're the one that accomplished this over God, then, then all of a sudden we forget the purpose of why we were doing this to begin with.

And good leaders deflect that glory and we stay grounded in the purpose that God's given us. A moment of honesty here. Um. To the [00:33:00] pride thing, I would say for all leaders or people who want to be leaders or people, um, who are in leadership over anybody else, and this is even parents, it, it, it's, it's that pride thing or the lack of humility that is the biggest stumbling block.

It, it's something, as soon as success happens, it's easy to take ownership of this. And it's uncanny to me. I'm gonna make this golfie and if you look over my shoulder, I'm actually in my on the Mark podcast studios. Um, we, we talk of like heroes and Scotty Scheffler in golf. For those who don't know, he is a hero.

He's the world's number one player currently. And it's almost always like he deflect the success always. And I'll be honest with you, it's not easy to do. Mm. And you've heard of pride coming before the fall because as soon as you have a few wins, and I can imagine, Gideon, it's like, [00:34:00] wow, the guy, wherever they turn, the Israelite army is knocking everybody over and he's in charge of the whole thing.

It, it's easy to allow that to go to one's head. So, so I, I, I want your commentary here because I feel like for me. It's almost a daily battle to go, you know? Less of me. More of you? Yeah, because it's so easy to make it all about me. And then that's when the sin starts getting a little foothold and it's like a virus that just starts spreading.

If you're not careful. It's a, well, lemme, lemme go, lemme go pastor here a little bit. So, excuse me. If you're listening to the podcast and faith and church and, and the Bible side of all this is not, you enjoy the leadership insights, but if you're listening to this and you're. You are a follower of God and you're enjoying the, the Bible and the Christian insights to all of this.

Um, you know, if you believe in God, you have to believe in an enemy. Mm-hmm. Um, and the Bible's very clear that Satan was, was once an angel mark, um, and he was an angel that was [00:35:00] over the worship in heaven. He was the worship leader. He was the worship leader of heaven. Like what a cool job. Right. Super talented.

Yeah. You're not the worship leader in heaven unless you're pretty good, I would imagine. No, I get it. Yeah. But man felt like voices up there, no pun intended. Uhhuh man was the leader of all of that. Really good, created by God to worship God, like amazing. And then what does he do? It got to his head. Yep.

And the Bible says that God hurled him out of heaven like a lightning bolt. So if we think that God likes pride. If we think that God likes creating you on purpose for a purpose, and then you become successful and you don't deflect that success back to the glory of God and use it to impact others and not just use it to build your own platform and your own kingdom, I would say very clearly that God, uh, he might not hurl you outta heaven.[00:36:00] 

But he might hurl his influence and blessing and hand that's on you away very quickly with pride. I, I think the secret sauce to leadership for those that I know, um, I think of guys like, like Chris S who's the pastor of founding, pastor of Church of the Highlands. I think about Mark Petti, who's the current lead pastor of Church of the Highlands, who helped build Highlands College and our motion student ministry.

Some of the biggest things happening in the body of Christ right now. And I can name dozens of other leaders that are leading amazing organizations. The, the, the secret sauce to their longevity in leadership, their success in leadership, and the fact that they're still going 15, 20, 25 years later has been the secret sauce, has been humility.

I. Every room that I'm in with them. If I could tell you one thing when I leave, it's not about in how incredible, incredibly strategic they are, how, what an incredible communicator they were. Oh my gosh. They have so much vision that we can move forward with. All those things are true, but it's humility.

It's bathed in humility. It's grounded in [00:37:00] humility. The humility is the foundation of all of that, and I just think it's the secret sauce as a Christ follower in your leadership is to remember. Our job is to add value to others. Our job is to give credit to others. Our job is to point people to Jesus during the middle of the success.

Um, Dave Ramsey was with us this weekend, mark, and he said, I met Jesus on the way up, but I got close to him on the way down. Yeah. Like, I met him on the way up, but I got to know him on the way down. Uh, pride is the thing that I think the enemy wants to use to pull all of us down in the, the success God wants us to be successful so that he can use that success for people to, like, you're doing it right now.

You're success, you're using it to point people to the thing that has made you successful. But as soon as the enemy gets in on pride, because that's what the enemy does, that was his downfall. Then he can tear up everything. He can pull everything down. He can end everything very quickly. 'cause God does not like pride.

He loves the humble. Well, let's be honest. I mean, if [00:38:00] you're not a believer in Jesus and you stumbled upon this podcast and you're still listening, um, glad you did. But let's, let's be honest here. In the business world on teams, whoever it is, when there's a group of people and somebody's in charge, in some sort of leadership capacity is the worst thing.

If you've got some guy or some gal that's all full of themselves who thinks that the sun's shining out of them and everything the world revolves around them, it is instantly offputting. Would you agree? Oh, it's, I mean, yeah, and I've been there, like you've probably been there as a young golfer, as somebody who's wanting to climb the ladder.

Be successful. I've been there, so I'm not, I'm not putting anybody down other than I've been there and I can slip into it still today. It's not something that's just like gone in my life. Like you can, you can slip back into it. So I would just say that's where great accountability comes in. That's where having good people around you.

Uh, they can, they can call that out in you in a way that's not demeaning you, [00:39:00] but it's keeping you on the path that you wanna be on, which is a path of humility, a path of like, God's given me this opportunity, and man, whatever's gotten in that's prideful. I need to get out. There's a verse in the Bible that says, you know, God, search my heart and find anything in it that's offensive to you and get it out.

And I think one of the most offensive things to God is pride. So it's a daily prayer for me, mark. Yeah. God, if there's pride in my heart, God, get it out. Don't let anything that stays in the dark grows. Anything that's put in the light has the opportunity to die. So my daily prayer is, God, if there's pride in my heart, don't let it stay there and grow in the dark.

Please get it out in the open so that it can die. Ravo pastora. I wanna say this real quick before I wrap. You wrote here, leadership is caught, not just taught. You didn't muddled boldness and his men followed. In golf or in ministry, people follow confidence rooted in conviction. And we'll add to that humility.

'cause the more we've talked, I can see now why, 'cause you've unpacked this so beautifully. Why Gideon [00:40:00] is in the Hebrews 11 hall of faith. Because of the fact that he was this little guy, nothing really to him remained a little guy. God used him mightily, became a little prideful and that had, uh, an effect on the latter generations.

But in the end, still. I mean, he did big things and really didn't make it about himself. Yeah. Yeah. You summed it up, my friend. So anybody listening today, go do big things. Go be a leader. Go be a hero. Go, go solve a problem. But man, guys, and ladies listening, just, nobody likes to be around somebody that makes it all about themself.

Mm. So. Nobody likes to be around that person. Nobody likes to be at the dinner table listening to that person. Nobody likes to be on the airplane listening to somebody that's telling them all about their success. Figure out a way to stay rooted and grounded in humility. And I think there's, there's even more that you'll be able to do.

More success, more influence that'll continue to come your way. He is preaching. That's Pastor [00:41:00] Kyle Jackson. I'm Mark Luman. Thanks for downloading this Greater Call podcast. Please interact with us. Tell us, tell your friends about what we're doing here. Have them have a listen. Follow us on social. The handles are at the greater call on X and on Instagram of course.

This is on YouTube. Please, please search, subscribe, leave us a nice review if you're so inclined. Direct message us on any of the platforms. If you're looking for prayer or as Kyle said, book references, anything to read, we are here, here to help. So tell your friends, let's grow this tribe. Let's continue to spread this incredible stuff.

Thanks for joining. Appreciate you. Love you guys. Go and be a legend.