The Greater Call - Episode 7: Obedient Wanderer

In this compelling episode, Mark Immelman and Pastor Kyle dive into the story of Moses—the reluctant leader who went from exile in the desert to delivering an entire nation. Known for his insecurities and resistance to God's call, Moses’ journey reminds us that feeling unqualified doesn't disqualify us from divine purpose.

Through honest dialogue and biblical insight, they unpack practical takeaways from Exodus 3–4, including:

• Why God often calls us through our weaknesses, not in spite of them
• How obedience can open doors, even when we’re afraid
• What it means to trust God's timing and provision
• How our past experiences can shape us for future purpose
• Why it’s okay to wrestle with doubts—God is still patient and present

Whether you’re facing a big decision, struggling with confidence, or wondering if you’re really called, this episode will encourage you to lean into obedience and let God do the equipping.

Key Verses Mentioned:
Exodus 3:11 — “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh?”
Exodus 4:12 — “Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say.”
2 Corinthians 12:9 — “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”

Takeaways:
➡ God uses ordinary people for extraordinary purposes.
➡ Obedience matters more than confidence.
➡ Your weakness is not a limitation—it’s an opportunity for God to shine.

Connect with Us:

📲 Follow us on social media: @TheGreaterCall (Instagram, FaceBook, YouTube, & X)
🎥 Subscribe on YouTube: Search ‘The Greater Call Podcast’
📩 DM us for prayer requests, leadership advice, or to share your story!

Website→ https://markimmelman.com/the-greater-call/

✨ Be full of joy in all things, no matter where you are. Be thankful. Go and be a legend! ✨

Transcript

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: [00:00:00] Here we are, episode seven of The Greater Call. I am Mark alongside my good friend and pastor Kyle Jackson. Kyle, how you doing? My boy? How are you?

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Doing great, my friend. Love you so much. Excited for my hat to come in. That's got a K on it with a period at the end of it. but you look, you look great my friend. Good to see you.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Okay, if you are listening to this on audio fans, um, I'm wearing a Blue Navy blue hat that's got a big capital M on there, and that may be for Moses, which is the episode, or it may be for municipal. Will let you decide. Ordinarily though, if you watch the previous episodes available on YouTube, search for the greater call.

Follow us incidentally, on X and on Instagram, same handle. You would see Kyle in the hat, so I figured I'd flip the script. Kyle, I'm I'm hat, got the hat on the head. You had list today.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: I think you wear it because it stands for Mark, but that's okay.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: It's M for Moses, the obedient [00:01:00] wanderer. All right, Kyle, before you give us the summary of another one of Hebrews 11, hall of Faith, Moses, and we put the cart before the horse because we've done, he's uh, he's Lieutenant Joshua, but now we're on the big dog, right? Uh, the guy who led the Israelites from Goshen is Egypt all the way.

The doorstep of the promised land. Before you tell the story quickly, I wanna pitch you this quote and just have you react. And folks, just so you know, I've not briefed Carl on this. So I'm talking straight to the Holy Spirit that is within, and here's the quote. Leadership is about influence. Everyone influences someone.

Therefore, in a sense, everyone is a leader. And that's from one of my favorite pastors in Nick Gumball. And when I saw that, I was like, Moses, because this was the unassuming, not so qualified [00:02:00] leader of 2 million people out of Egypt. I mean, I want your res, I want your response to that quote for me, please.

About everyone being a leader.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Um, I think there's always someone watching,

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Mm-hmm.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: um, and there's always somebody that looks up to you. I. There's a stay at home mom that looks up to another stay at home mom. There's a 10th grader that looks up to 12th grader. There's a young golfer that looks up to a semi-professional golfer. There's a coach that looks up to another coach.

There's a neighbor that looks up to their neighbor because of the way they handle their home or their grass, or the way they see them interact with their kids. Uh, and I think influence really at its core definition. Mark is, um. Someone else is watching what you do and they're mimicking what you do.

They're learning from you what you do. Um, and it really, for me, it, it's always tied to my favorite Bible verse. Um, one of my favorite Bible verses. It's Ephesians 4 29 where it says, do not let any [00:03:00] unwholesome talk come outta your mouth, but only what's helpful for building others up according to their needs.

And then this last part so that it benefits everyone who's listening. There's always someone listening. There's always someone watching, uh, and everybody listening to this, uh, has more influence than they realize. Um, and the way we act, the way we talk, the way we do things, the way we keep our car clean, or the way we keep it messy, I.

Um, influences someone to go, I wanna be more like them, or, or if they can do it, I guess I can do it that way, good or bad. So again, I think everybody's a leader in one way, shape, or form. I think the world defines leader by followers on social

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Mm-hmm.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: titles that we have in our workplace. But God, God calls leaders by people, uh, that are obedient, that live their life in a way worthy of other people following them.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Your hard hitting right at the top of the show, huh? Gosh.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: You teed that one up. My friend took a swing.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Well, I wanna put a cap on that there too, because I did some research on this and [00:04:00] sociologists say that even the most introverted individual will influence more than 10,000 people in their lifetime.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Yep.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Now, if you're downloading this Greater Call podcast to learn about life or to learn about leadership, consider that for a minute.

When I was like 10,000 people, gosh, I, I mean, I, I couldn't begin to fathom even.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: arena full of

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: No kidding. And then Nicky Gumbel, my, one of my heroes, and you've said this, Nikki goes, how you live affects others. You look to others for an example, others look to you as an example. This happens whether you like it or not.

All right, so let's get to whether you like it or not. Here's Moses.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: let me, let me, let me even encourage the introvert real, real quick. Mark. Let me put my, my hat on because you know, they say majority of Fortune 500 CEOs are introverted. I. Uh, they, you know, and I think we think influence means a loud voice, um, a great speaker, [00:05:00] someone who's very out in front of people.

But you know, introverts, you, you influence people by the way you listen. You influence people by your facial expression. When something goes bad, uh, you influence people by. Uh, your body language in a room. So influence isn't what the world promotes as loud out in front. Uh, great speakers influence can be a lot of different things.

I.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: I love that. Um, okay, Moses, I'll give the whistle stop. You want, I want you to fill in the blanks. Um, man Born, you, everyone knows the story found in the bull rushes by, um, Pharaoh's daughter. So he is born in Egypt.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Yep.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Born into royalty and then the call of God is greater than, um, the trappings of living in the Egyptian palace,

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Yep.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: and he returns to his Hebrew roots.

And then of course, all Israelites are [00:06:00] over there in the land of Goshen slaves, and it's his call to, um, free them from slavery.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Yeah.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Um, so I guess a preamble to Jesus, if you will.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Yeah.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Then takes them on this long odyssey. The So Sojourn 40 years worth led 2 million people I read out of Egypt and he didn't just take the easy route, they went the movie route with through the sea and over mountains and through the desert and eating manna from heaven and finding water in a rock.

I mean this, this is like movie sort of stuff from our boy Moses, anything you'd like to add over there to the story?

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Well, I mean, I think as people listen today, I think he's a masterclass on leadership, honestly. You know, and it was forged, uh, through calling, it was forged through failure. It was forged through obedience. It was forged through legacy. Um, and you nailed it. I mean, he was born, you know, he was born not even into a family, you [00:07:00] know, uh, uh, he was born, uh, into royalty.

Uh, he was, um, he was exiled as a fugitive. Um. He had every reason in his story, uh, for it to be over before it even began. Um, and like you said, he was called to confront Pharaoh. He was called to lead the Israelites out of Egypt. He parted the Red Sea. Um, he guided a nation through the wilderness, which we'll talk about in a little bit.

But I think my favorite part about Moses, Moses was, you know, he wasn't perfect. and I think we sometimes think we have to be perfect Dads, perfect husbands, perfect friends, perfect leaders, perfect businessmen, and, uh, he just wasn't perfect. I mean, he doubted. Uh, he wrestled with what God asked him to do.

He disobeyed in some scenarios. Uh, but more than anything, he was faithful. Moses was faithful. Uh, he was humble. Uh, he stood in the gap for his people. Um, and most of all, he, he refused to lead without the presence of God. So, you know, in the end, Moses did, he didn't enter the Promised Land, but he got the, he got the people to the promised land, and then he handed off. You know, that to the [00:08:00] next generation, which we talked about with Joshua. that off to the next generation. Here's the line I wrote down Mark, uh, is that, uh, his story reminds us that great leaders don't just lead people out, they lead people forward.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Hmm.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Um, and he just did such an amazing job of that and again, handed it off to the next generation and left a legacy, which I think is really what everybody wants.

Listening to this. We wanna leave a legacy with our family, our kids, our friends, our business, um, our influence. So he's an incredible leader. We're gonna learn a lot today.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Yeah, let's get to the start. Um, there's a song by Mercy Me and I feel like the song's name is nobody. And the chorus in the song goes that God chose the unlikely people. And he goes, they go, Moses had stage fright. David bought a rock to a sword fight. And then it's like, then he goes, God essentially picked 12 outsiders that nobody would've chosen and they changed the world.

So, so let's get to Moses because [00:09:00] here's this guy Egyptian. Hebrew, deep down Israel, Israelite, deep down, he responds to the calling, he escapes, runs away murders an Egyptian man in the, in the process. Okay? But then, um, has the burning bush experience. I'm gonna make it a bit personal here because obviously I've gravitated from golf coach, golf instructor into broadcast guy slash podcaster, and it's kind of crazy.

And one day I was reading the Bible and I was always, always fascinated by, by these Bible heroes. I guess that's the origin of this podcast. And so I'm reading about Moses. Something I'd never known about the burning bush experience. I mean, I remember him getting the orders from God Almighty from this burning bush that didn't burn down, but it was on fire and it was like, Moses, take off your shoes.

You on holy ground. And so he does. And then God's like, you are my [00:10:00] guy. You are going to free my people. You are going to go to Pharaoh. The most powerful man in your world and go, I'm taking my folks outta here and you're gonna let us do it. And Moses sort of responds with, um, but how can you pick me? I stutter, I'm slow of speech.

How am I gonna speak to the most powerful man there is and I can't string together a complete sentence. And there's a verse that if I did have a tattoo. I'd probably have it done on my right hand wrist, which is the my microphone holding hand on the golf course. So I could see it right over here. And it's Exodus four 11 and 12.

Um, lemme just find it here real fast so I can read it back to you. Um, here we go. Exodus four 11 and 12. The Lord said to him who gave man his mouth, who [00:11:00] makes him deaf or mute. Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not? I the Lord? Now go, I will help you speak and I'll teach you what to say.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Hmm.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: So I wanna camp here for a minute because that's so meaningful to me.

Because so many times we go into these big situations. I can only imagine you in front of a congregation of a thousand people and you get up there and you're like, oh my goodness. You know the feeling. Huh. And

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: yeah.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: yeah. And that I see you smiling for the folks who are listening on audio, you should see the bright smile and, and, and I clinging to this verse.

I absolutely clinging to it because when I heard hold a microphone up, and I honestly think about even this podcast, I think about the folks listening to this and them hearing me misspeak sometimes make mistakes, fundamental mistakes, all this sort of stuff. I'm like, how Lord? Then I keep hearing, [00:12:00] did I not make your mouth?

Now go and I will give you the words and it speaks to the power of the tongue. So have a swing pastor. Go ahead.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Oh man, I think you nailed it. I think, uh, yeah, I think the question we're always asking what? Um, what Moses asked before that verse, before that chapter in chapter three, you know, he, he asked the question, who am

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Yeah.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Like, who am I to go do what you've asked me to do? I think we ask that question all the time. I think, you know, who am I to to help this teenage kid with this decision? Who am I to figure out this financial situation? Who am I to go start this business? Who am I to record this podcast? Who am I to get the. The promotion, like I think we have so many desires in our heart, but then when we get there, we have the insecurity of like, who am I, uh, to go do this?

And um, I think that's the cool, one of the coolest things about God for anybody that's listening to the podcast is he, he specializes in using people [00:13:00] the world overlooks. Um, think God's always saying influence begins with surrender, not status. And I know we live in a world that celebrates status and says they have influence. I think, you know, if you're listening to the podcast and you're a Christ follower, like you want more influence in your life, it starts with, with greater surrender. And God doesn't, um, depend on your resume. Uh, he, he really depends on your availability. think we're always trying to, we're always thinking we need to do something more to get to where God wants us to be.

And God's going, man, if you'll surrender some things, if you'll just stay available, maybe I'll open doors. And you might ask the question, who am I? But that's a great place to be, mark. Who am I says, I'm humble. Who am I? Says, I don't think I deserve this. Who am I? Says, I don't think I'm qualified. And the Bible's very clear that in my weakness he is

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Yeah.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: strong.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Our strength. Yeah.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: uh, I don't wanna be somewhere that I think I can do it all on my own. If it is, then it's probably me chasing something. I'm in a [00:14:00] place where I feel like I'm not good enough to do this, then it might be the area that God's moving me to because I need him to step into the places that I am weak and make me strong.

So again, you get it. I, I would love for you to tell everybody listening today, like, I don't know if you have a routine. I don't know if there's something you say to yourself. I know that you're always confident on the air, but I know your story behind the scenes is like, I'm getting ready to call this tournament, this shot at this moment. You know, what are you saying to yourself? Like, what's a practical for somebody that's just looking for confidence? To step into the thing that they feel like they're, uh, underqualified for or that, you know, they're asking the question, who am I? What's your routine to, to build godly confidence in you before you have to do something, uh, in your world.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Will. I, I know a lot of folks who might not believe in Jesus as our savior, listen to the show. But so I, I'll share my personal experience here and, and, and for me, you know, as I listen back to some of the calls I do and as I listen back to some of the podcasts I release or some of the shows that I'm on, I.

[00:15:00] Once I get over the facts, 'cause I want you to remember please, Aaron. Okay? 'cause when I get done with this, I'll probably forget, uh uh, once I've gotten over the fact that I hate the way I sound. And I, I listen back and I'm like, green around my gills because it's just like, ew, I can't believe I said that.

There are, when my mind is a little more clear and I'm a little less self-critical, which is bad, I. It's good to be humble, but you know, sometimes self-critique if it's coming from a bad place is a bad thing. If you're looking at yourself through a godly prism, then the self-critique would be a little bit more uplifting.

Um, but anyway, once I get past that, I sometimes remember I'm like, my goodness, I have no idea where that statement came from. It's not like I planned it, and it's certainly not that I've got the intellect. Or the the wit or the wisdom or whatever it is to have made that [00:16:00] savvy comment in just a few words.

Now, I'm not saying I do this all the time, but if I truly release myself and relinquish myself and basically put myself thread bear in front of the Lord, God Almighty, and say, here I am. I'm like, Moses, my shoes are, my shoes are off. I'm not equipped to do this job. I'm gonna study and I'll be ready for whatever happens, but goodness knows what's gonna come outta my mouth.

And it's my hope and my prayer that whatever comes out there glorifies you and just. Tease, its people with a little bit of your love and your grace and your mercy, and May, may, all my calls and all my comments and all my shows have that special something that no one can really put a finger on. But the only descriptor rarely is this heavenly influence.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: It's

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: That lives inside, but I'm sure you feel the same way Once you, you, you get off onto and then off the stage because haven't you had that experience where [00:17:00] you get there And I always just need the first line if I have to speak. Like if I hit the first line, I'm good. I. Then, but if the first line's messy, then I, I'm panicking inside and I'm fumbling my way towards ecstasy eventually.

But you hit that moment, don't you, where it's like, all right, and, and you've used the term before, the Holy Spirit puts wind in your sails. You almost feel like you, like you're playing sailing now, huh?

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: A hundred percent. I think, I mean, I think, again, speaking to, to Christian leaders, I think great Christian leaders, you know, we lead from God's presence.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Yeah.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Uh, we don't lead from our own strength. Moses said this later on in the story. He said, you know, if your presence does not go with us, do not send me from here.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Yeah. Okay.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: do not send me from here. And honestly, and I learned this from a pastor back in Florida that I was under for a long time. And honestly, uh, pastor Chris Hodges, who was the, the lead pastor of Church of the Highlands for 24 years and is the founding pastor now, I've learned this from him as well. He has a sign behind the auditorium wall before you walk out and [00:18:00] speak to 50,000 people live, and hundreds of thousands of people watching online.

And then we'll watch it later on. He just has a little sign back there that he puts his hand on. It says. Play like a champion sign in Notre Dame, but it, it just says, it basically says, God, I, I'm not walking out here unless you go before me. Um, and my pastor in Florida used to say, just en envision a an invisible line.

And when you step across that, I'm stepping outta myself, I'm stepping into the presence of God, and I'm going, God, lead me from here. Take over my tongue. You give me what to say. Let me say things I don't even have planned. Let my mind not get in the way. Uh, say what you want to say, not what I wanna say.

The Bible says, God, less of me, more of

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Yeah.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: I think that's what you're saying, mark, is you, you never walk into any situation, anybody that's listening to the podcast, that feels underqualified or is asking the question, who am I? Great question to ask. And the response to that should be, God, I, who am I? And I need you?

Less of me, more of you in this opportunity that I have. And God always comes through. Mark always comes [00:19:00] through.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Hmm. It's amazing. You know, as I think ahead, he has Moses son of privilege, Egyptian royalty. Leaves that behind him basically goes and serves as, as a humble leader. Wasn't an easy life by any stretch of the imagination, but then later on in the story, he is the only person that sees God face to face

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Right,

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Mount Sinai.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: right.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Not once a few times, you know, to get the 10 Commandments and such. So it's amazing. And as you say that, when you step into that presence, when he, he left the burning bush with the assignment, didn't go by himself,

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Right,

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: eventually humored him just like Gideon. He's like, all right, enough with you, Aaron is gonna go alongside you, but you're still gonna go and do the job.

Yeah.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Well, I mean, I think, you know, I think Moses' leadership wasn't driven by ego. It was driven by closeness.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Okay.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: [00:20:00] Closeness to God, closeness to others. You're right. He had Aaron, the Bible says that Aaron held up one arm and another servant named her HUR, held up his other arm and, um, he just decided not to do it alone.

And I even, one of the things you and I talked about on here is that. Um, you know, Moses says at one point, you know, I cannot carry all these people by myself. The burden is too heavy for me.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Yeah. Huh.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Um, because I think anybody listening to this, leadership's lonely at the top. Um, you know, you get to where you think you want to go and you have all this influence, but sometimes leadership can be lonely at the top.

I'm sure you feel that sometimes. Like it's, you know, you got to where you wanted to go, you're doing something awesome, but then you find yourself in a hotel room at the greatest golf course in America by yourself on a Friday night, getting ready to go out and call Saturday with all this pressure. And you just feel like sometimes you're doing it on your own. But, but Moses looked on and said, listen, I'm not gonna allow that to happen. Like the burden is too heavy to do leadership on it on your own. Uh, and he did have an ear, and he did have her, he did have Joshua out in front fighting the [00:21:00] battle.

And I know that's a part of your story. You always tell me, and I see you do this on your social media, you're always quick to snap the photo and put it on your Instagram story of the guys that are behind the camera and the guys that are on the audio side because. We're always better with a great team that's around us, and Moses knew that, and I think you know that.

I definitely know that anybody listening today, you can go a long way on your own, but you can always go further with others.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: True. Uh, and like Uber Eats by yourself in your hotel room. Yeah.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Real quick, just just a quick brain break. If you're Uber eating at Pebble Beach, what are you ordering? are you ordering? I wanna know the people demand. What fast food or chain restaurant are you Uber eating to your very nice hotel?

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: usually, it's usually, they're usually sushi. Some sort of sushi.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Sushi. You're so sushi.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Well,

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: can see you sitting in your hotel watching ESP and eating your sushi

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: well, it's, uh, if we're fishers of men, we need to eat fish. Okay. [00:22:00] Back to regular. Yeah, back to regular program. Um, um. You can be my Aaron. Um, okay, Aaron. Um, okay, so Moses goes, um, and I keep on thinking, and we'll really get to this, I wanna mind this in a little while, but now he goes up to Pharaoh and Pharaoh looks at him and goes, whatever, man.

And Moses goes, you need to listen or else. And Pharaoh's like, and so now we get all the plagues and you get the flies, you, you name them all. It all happened until eventually we went from the river of blood to the livestock being killed. It was just,

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: a wild story.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: it's horrible. It's like a movie. Um.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: you don't like the Bible, by the way, you should go read this story because it, it could be a movie. I think it would entertain you.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Yeah. So it, it, everything happens. And, and then, uh, you know what I found funny is that through it all, it says there, when Pharaoh hits them with the first plague, and, uh, pardon me, [00:23:00] Moses hits them, hits them with the first plague, and Pharaoh is like, nothing, man. So he comes with something heavier and then it goes, and God hardened pharaoh's hearts.

It's almost like God's wanting to go, I'm gonna show you how big I am and I'm gonna make this guy play tough. Until we really hit him with the, uh, firstborn thing that eventually gets, you know, with the Passover.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: No

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Uh, and then eventually Pharaoh sort of somewhat capitulated. But I guess what I'm getting to here and it's, this is gonna kick onto when they're in the desert, all of the stuff was call causing, you know, if you just read in, in the Bible, it's like, wow, that's a cool story.

If you living, then with this stuff happening, I just imagine what the place smelled like it was. It must have been gruesome. And so I guess I'm getting to the fact that leadership sometimes you gotta do stuff that just isn't easy and people are not going to like it, and you're gonna have a lot of folks that [00:24:00] are just, they don't like you very much because essentially all the Egyptians are looking at Ms.

Moses guy who's the architect of their doom. He must have been like Public enemy number one.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: yeah,

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Huh?

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: yeah. I mean, you're, we again, it kinda goes back to that leadership's lonely at the top. Like you have to make decisions, you have to do things that. Others aren't gonna like. I mean, you live in this world, I'm sure as many people that tell you how great of a job you did. You get the nasty comments on social media.

You get people disagreeing with you. I was looking at something that I put out the other day, mark. I literally was just telling my story about how, know, a pastor 15 years ago, 16 years ago, grabbed me at the church we were in. I wasn't involved at all, but he took me to. Took me to coffee at Starbucks, and we met there for a year at 7:00 AM and he just kinda worked some of the stuff that had happened in my life out of me.

And that's really the clip. And then underneath, it's just the nastiest comments of like, oh my gosh, how could you go to Starbucks and be a Christian? And, oh, all they did was want your money. That's the only reason they met with you. And I'm like, geez. I'm like, [00:25:00] I'm just. Telling the, I'm just telling my story, like I, I didn't, wasn't trying to use it to, to anybody or confuse anybody.

I literally just, it's a 32nd clip of talking about how sometimes in your life you need somebody to come alongside you and meet you right where you are. And so you live in that world. Like you're, you're, if you want to have influence or if you have influence, you're gonna have haters. Uh, you're gonna have people that wanna pull you down.

Uh, you're gonna have people that are very brave behind a keyboard that you'll never know. Who they are or know what they look like. And again, great leaders, that's why you put good people around you because the goal is, is that the people around, you know, the real you. when you try to lead, when you try to lead and have influence on your own, those voices will get to you real quick.

When you lead with others and you put a good group of people around you that really know who you are, their voice in your life is multiplied way more than the Chis, uh, in the background. So again, I, I know you deal with this, like, talk about it.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Well, yeah. Look, you, you always gonna, I, [00:26:00] I believe that if you're truly making a difference, if you don't, well. If you're truly making a difference, you are going to have haters. If you're not making a difference, everyone's gonna be your friend, because then you're all things to all people. So that's my personal experience.

Now, is that easy? No. And, and, and with the no, it not being easy. I wanna pivot back to Mo Moses please, because, so now. The final plague where all the firstborn sons, there's a great song by Metallica, the Creeping Death, you know? Yeah, I did go there. Um, so all the firstborn children are killed and the Israelites painted their, their doorways with blood, and so death would pass over the household so they get let go.

Um, still not very, um. Uh, Pharaoh was still not very re relinquishing with this, but he said, okay, off you go. Now I've done, I've had enough. And so they go, and I can imagine the jubilation [00:27:00] of Moses and his people now being freed from slavery,

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Hmm.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: but then lo and behold their road to the promised land. 'cause now they're on the, they got the promised land in front, right?

Land of milk and honey. And now we're on the way and we're gonna get through this temporary disturbance. That is the, the trek from, uh. Egypt to Israel, it's not very far, and it should make it fairly quickly. So they're like, we're gonna go there and it's gonna be great. And right off the bat, they have to turn the the different way.

And they basically, uh, get confronted by the Red Sea. And now Pharaohs having second thoughts and he's got his army of people behind. So the Israelite people are stuck between the sea and the Egyptians.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Yep.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: And all of a sudden Moses, who was the hero. Is now the villain and all 2 million people are turning on him, calling him, you're crazy.

Why do we even do [00:28:00] this? We should

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: a

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: go, we get this. We should go back to Egypt and go and be slaves because at least we'll get meat and stuff to eat over there.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Yep.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: It's insane, but when I listen to this, I've been that guy. It's like, I'd rather go back to my chains over here because it was comfortable, because going ahead and making a difference than going towards the goal is a little rocky and bumpy right now, huh?

Yes.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Oh, no doubt. I mean, I think anybody listening to this, if you've ever said yes to something you felt like God asked you to do. ends up looking like you think it will, like it's again, going from Egypt to Israel, straight line, but it always ends up being a, you know, a roundabout way to get there.

And you've probably said this phrase, I've said it, most people listening to it have said it. If you've said yes to something God's asked you to do, which is I don't think we made the right decision.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Yeah.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Like, I don't know if, like, I've looked at my wife multiple times over the years and been like, I don't know if we made the right call. And then we stayed faithful, um, just like Moses does through throughout all this. We didn't listen to all the haters. We didn't [00:29:00] listen to the people telling us, you know, we should have done something different because we knew what God had asked us to do. And then we get on the other side of that and it's all the, the, the end result is always greater than you thought it would be when you started.

So like, there's a moment where you go, did we make the right decision? It doesn't look like I thought it would. And then you stay faithful and you get there. And it ends up being sweeter and better, uh, than you thought it would when you started a year ago, two years ago, five years ago. So absolutely.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: I, I, and I wrote a note here and the note, and we've said this and it seems to be a theme throughout the shows we've done so far, and I don't want this to appear redundant, but you've said it and it seems like God uses. Frail people and, and, and Moses was hardly like a commander of sorts. Right. But everyone's following him because of all these plagues they're following the God that did the work.

And Moses is just kind of the beacon in front of them. Although there was the cloud during the day and the fire by night that was guiding these, these Hebrew people through the, the, the desert. But now we're confronted [00:30:00] with a Red Sea and Yas Moses and. It was like, what are we doing now? And the Egyptians are bearing down on them.

And then everything that he did, he had this staff, this basically wooden pole, right? This thing turned into a serpent in front of Pharaoh. This thing later on in the story, you know, water from a Iraq,

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Right.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: this thing, when he held it up, the strong wind from the east came and basically blew the ocean, the red Sea apart.

And the Israelites went through there on dry ground. Then it was the staff when he held it back over the sea, but it collapsed back into itself and the Egyptian army drowned. Incidentally, I read this the other day that under the Red Sea, people are now excavating chariot's wheels and stuff like that from this.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: I've seen

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: But that's an aside. Okay, so help me with this whole staff thing. I mean, do we have to be as a leader, walk around with the staff, or is it just something that we turn to that's kind of. Our calling [00:31:00] card as an announcer, I always say, well, you know, there's Kyle Jackson. He's his, Aaron plays his calling card.

It's kind of his GoTo. Are you feeling where I'm going? Here? Was

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Yeah.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Moses GoTo?

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think I. I think, God, I think it's incr. I think it's really wise to have things that remind you of where God's come through in the past.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Yeah.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: You know, I think the, like that moment came and Moses didn't know that moment was about to come.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Mm. No.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: it's not like, again, we read the story and I think sometimes we assume, like the way we read it, it's like, well, Moses knew what was about to happen, so of course he went to his step, like he didn't know that was about to happen. Um, you know, it's like a golf shot in a tournament. Like they don't know that the shot that they. about to have to hit is behind a tree until they walk up and see where it's at. Now they've gotta make a decision in a moment. And I would imagine, again, I'm not a great golfer or golf a lot Mark, but guys have clubs that they feel the most comfortable with, with certain shots that don't make sense to the average golfer watching it.

But there's a reason why it feels comfortable. I've got things in [00:32:00] my office if I could turn the camera around, I've got different things in my office and nobody would know what they are. And they probably look weird to people if they walk in and just look around and they go, why does he have a picture of a. a big stairwell and these big wood doors. Well, know, that's a picture on my bottom bookshelf that reminds me of a job that when I first moved to Southwest Florida, I worked for a big construction company and it wasn't what I felt called to do, but God gave me this opportunity and he allowed me to work there for three years.

Um, and parts of it were miserable. Parts of it were a big learning curve. Um, but honestly, when I found myself being faithful there to do what God had called me to do, regardless of where I got to do it at, or the title that I had, when I just started using the influence I had there with people, God opened the doors for the next season of my life.

So the picture there is the first ever job that I did there, and it is to remind me. That there is not a bad day in ministry that's as bad as a good day at that construction company. Um, and I, I have multiple of those things in my office. I have a picture of me and my father-in-law [00:33:00] hiking the Inca Trail to Machu Picchu in Peru, which is where I felt called to say yes. To being a full-time pastor in my life. And, uh, so I do think, God, I think a good practical for everybody's life listening is put some things around you that you see regularly that remind you of God's goodness, that reminds you of God's faithfulness, that reminds you of when God came through, when you didn't think there was a way out of something. And that's what Moses did when he got to a place where he was stuck, when he got to a place where most people would've given up or caved in or out of fear. You know, threw their hands up and surrender. He went to the thing that reminded him that God was powerful, that God had an answer, that God was gonna come through.

And for Moses, that was his staff, whether it was striking a rock in water, whether it was holding it up, uh, to part the Red Sea, he had that reminder that my God is good, my God is faithful, and nothing can come against me. That's greater than him.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Yeah, I notice that a lot as I read through the Old Testament, like wherever folks went, they'd built an altar or a monument to God's goodness. Yeah.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Yes.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Reminders. [00:34:00] I.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Were always supposed to be reminders for the next generations that God came through.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: I've gotta share this folks. My good friend Kyle has two beautiful children and a wife is the superstar in the family, but his youngest is a, is a young man named Cooper who is a. Loves baseball, and correct me if I'm wrong, Kyle, so one of the things Kyle has in his office, and I saw this and I giggled, and if you're an Alabama fan, you need to block your ears.

If you're an Auburn fan like Kyle is, you're gonna love this. So Kyle, it's Sunday morning, one or other Sunday, and the prayer cards go out and Kyle and his staff are praying over the prayer cards. You should see how he's laughing right now. If you're listening on audio, go to YouTube. The Greater Call subscribe.

I. Kyle picks up this car to it's handed to him and it's Cooper who at the time was what? Seven. Six. Six. Okay. Cooper's written there. Dear Jesus, please can [00:35:00] Auburn beat Alabama.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Hold on, hold on. It's, I'm looking at it right now. My office, it says, it says, dear God, I hope Alabama does not make it to the college football playoffs. And that was on a Sunday and Monday night they released the playoffs and it was the year Alabama didn't get

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Um,

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: my man thinks that's like his first answered prayer from God.

So it's framed in my office 'cause I'm an Auburn fan, but it's also a reminder, that God answers prayers. Yeah,

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: well, uh, tide's gonna roll here very soon. Okay. Back to, uh, back to Moses and the sea in terms of speaking of the tide. Okay. Um, so we threw the Red Sea and now it should be plain sailing, but it isn't. And all Israelite folks, they like, they've got the pillar of fire before them in the night, which is God's presence guiding them.

And they've got the cloud during the day, yet they're getting frustrated and they're like, now whatever. And so they start taking silver and gold and stuff and building their own gods. [00:36:00] And now Moses has to deal with this stuff.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Yep.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Now here's the ultimate leadership challenge for the Christian leader. All right?

This is where I need your insight, where you've got people that look up to you, that report to you, whatever, and they don't fit in with the corporate line. Let's say I'm the Christian and we've got Christian values, but nowadays it's so hard because everyone's living their own truth, right? And yeah, Moses, who has now gotten the 10 Commandments from God himself.

Comes back down and the rest of his 2 million strong tribe are worshiping handmade cows and goats and things like that. So, uh, I need you to put on your pastor hat please and, uh, and bring us some wisdom and some, some spiritual wisdom.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Well, I think, um, I think some of the about being a Christ follower is that you have to get it right all the

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Okay.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: I think a lot of people [00:37:00] are unattracted to figuring out what it would look like to have God be a part of their life because they feel like if they say yes to God, then they have to get everything right moving forward.

I do think they feel like it's a bunch of rules and laws that Moses went up and brought down the 10 Commandments again. Moses brought those down because he needed to bring order to a group of people that had been at slavery their whole life, and they had no structure. That's the Old Testament, you know? They had to do these things. The New Testament talks about Jesus came and he dies on a cross. We could ask for forgiveness of our sins without having to earn anything. It's a free gift, the Bible says of grace. We don't have to earn it. We don't have to do something. We don't have to give enough, serve enough.

Know enough Bible verses enough. It's a free gift that it's just with one prayer and repentance of our sins. Heaven can be our home. The Bible says that he forgets all of our sins forevermore and our future sins are forgiven. And then really from that point forward, mark, it's just a journey that we'll face the rest of our life until we, till we go to heaven, is that we're never gonna get it all right.

We're not going to, know, make every right decision, [00:38:00] say every right thing, follow everything the Bible asks us to do. It's a journey, uh, to get there, but it, it ends up becoming not a burden to do. It becomes a delight to do God's. Things because when you do them, you see that your life's better in every way.

And financially it's better, um, in your leadership. It's better in your marriage. It's

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Yeah.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: kids. It's better, and your friendships, it's better. So I think my, my thought to you. On all of that would be is that yeah, the Israelites messed up in that moment. They got distracted because the world puts a lot of distractions in front of our face on social media, on the internet, on tv, uh, with materialism, with purchasing things, with beautiful vacations.

Like I. The, the enemy is always trying to distract us from, from leaning into more of God's purpose for our life. And I think Israelites to the same thing. They made a mistake. They, they turned towards worldly things. Uh, but again, you see them as they turn back to God. God continues to move them forward.

It might have been in a circle in the wilderness. and you'll see that over and over again. They start following God. God does some things. They move [00:39:00] away from God. They start doing some worldly things. God has to come in and correct it. They start following God. They see good things happen in their life, and they move towards worldly things.

And again, that's all of our journey. Like most people come to church when life is bad. I. when something happens in their life that's not good, they all find themselves back at church, reading their Bible, doing all the things 'cause they want God to answer. And then life gets good again. And you find the distractions of the world pulling them away again.

And I think God shows us that through his own people, that this is not about doing something perfect, it's about remaining faithful. Knowing God is a God full of grace, forgiveness, and he's always one moment away. If you'll, the Bible says if you'll draw close to him, he will draw close to you.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Yeah. Um, yes, I, I, I want to quickly put a capper on it 'cause I know we're running low on time here, but you know, that time in the desert, that 40 years,

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Yeah,

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: it shouldn't have been 40 years.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: right.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: the reality is there was misbehavior, there was deviance. The folks got off the cycle. You live. So essentially that that desert time [00:40:00] was not necessarily defining the Israelites.

It was more like it was refining them into the people who were going to go into the promised land.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Correct.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: personally, my desert experiences. As I look back, are some of the best lessons learned, and I think for leaders, if you're going through that time, Kyle, where it's like, gosh, it's tough right now and we should be further along, but it's a struggle.

It's almost like I want you to embrace that time because when you're on the back end of it in the promised land, you'll look back and go, that was kinda what refine me and prepared me for where I am now. Would you agree?

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Oh, 100%. You, you nailed that. You nailed it on the head. So, um, God's promise is bigger than your season.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Mm-hmm.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Uh, and I think sometimes we get so called up in. What's happening right now that we lose sight of the bigger picture of what God's asked us to do. I mean, it really is the story of Moses like, and he gets to the Promised Land, but he doesn't get in. it's a powerful reminder to remember sometimes legacy isn't about what you finish. [00:41:00] It's a lot of times about what you start.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Yeah.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Um. Because true leaders really prepare for the next generation to take what they've started and take it even further. And that's what Moses did with Joshua and then entering the promised land.

That's what you're gonna do. Like you're, you are you, you've lived a life of, of leadership and, and golfing and influence. But even watching you right now with your daughter transitioning this season into playing for the University of Alabama, you're taking her around on golf trips with you right now.

She loves the broadcasting thing. She's learning like, I think your greatest joy in life would be to see her go further. In her relationship with God and in the calling on her life and the, the talent that, that she has, I, I think your greatest gift would to see her go further than you've even been.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: So in worldly terms, I wanna ask you this one word answer. You know, if you read the Moses story, 'cause he is, he can see the promised land, but he never gets to enter because of disobedience after he is done all this stuff right? I was like, man, that's disappointing. But the reality is, if you look at it from that supernatural experience, he's prepared so many young leaders to [00:42:00] go forth.

So it's actually a story of great, great, um, great success, great triumph. Would you, you would agree?

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Yeah, the one word for me would be legacy. Like he, he, we all wanna leave a legacy mark. Everybody does. Most people, when you die, you're never gonna remember your name. Like, people aren't gonna remember what you did. You know, there majority of, majority of the world, you know, you're, you're forgotten about pretty quickly. Um, unless you leave a legacy, unless you leave something behind that continues on without you, you'll be forgotten about. So the goal is that we do something, we build something, we prepare something, we hand something off that lives longer than we lived. And that's how you'll be remembered is you've left.

You left a legacy. I think that's what everybody wants in their life. They might not use that word, but they wanna be remembered for what they did. I would use the word legacy. I think Moses left a legacy. Everybody we talk about on this podcast, the reason we're talking about them is 'cause they left a legacy and they're remembered [00:43:00] 2000 years past the moment that they passed away.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Members of the heroes 11 Hall of Faith. I wanna leave you with this. It's an African proverb.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: Hmm.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: If you think you're too small to make a difference, you've never spent a night with a mosquito. It's true because.

kyle-jackson_1_05-28-2025_150321: That's the most, that's the most South African thing I've heard you ever, I've ever heard you say.

mark-immelman_1_05-28-2025_150630: Because this is, I mean, Moses, it was his willingness despite his frailties, right? It was the obedience it, it was the leaving the luxury to go and live this. Life in the desert basically. But to leave a legacy, it's an incredible story of leadership and I'm so thankful that you, Kyle, would share all of the insights.

Um, you can follow him on social media. He's Kyle Jackson, our Mark Andelman. Thank you for downloading this one. Follow us on social media. We are at the greater call. Share that with, share this with your friends. If you led, please give us a nice review there. But the big thing is to [00:44:00] realize that even you.

So go a legend.