The Greater Call Podcast – Abraham | Irrational Obedience with Norrie Steyn

In this stirring episode of The Greater Call Podcast, host Mark Immelman welcomes Norrie Steyn—former college golfer turned global ministry leader—to unpack the incredible faith journey of Abraham. Through storytelling, Scripture, and heartfelt reflection, Mark and Norrie explore what it truly means to follow God when obedience doesn’t make sense. 

Together they connect Abraham’s story to modern life and leadership—what it looks like to leave comfort behind, to trust God’s timing, and to obey even when logic says otherwise. From Abraham’s call to leave home, to his willingness to sacrifice Isaac, the conversation dives deep into faith, family, identity, and the courage to believe in the impossible. 

You’ll also hear Norrie’s inspiring testimony—from his roots in South Africa and college golf dreams to a full-time calling in ministry—and how God’s faithfulness transforms “irrational obedience” into life-changing purpose. 

What You’ll Learn in This Episode: 

• Why Abraham’s obedience seemed irrational—but changed everything 
• How God’s promises stretch beyond what we can imagine 
• The difference between identity and assignment in leadership 
• What true faith looks like when comfort is left behind 
• How impatience can distort God’s plan—and the peace found in trusting His timing 
• The link between obedience, joy, and eternal purpose 
• Why Abraham’s story reminds us that we’re never past our “sell-by date” for God’s calling 

Guest Links: 

Learn more about Norrie Steyn and College Golf Fellowship: collegegolffellowship.com 

Connect with Us:

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Website→ https://markimmelman.com/the-greater-call/

✨ Be full of joy in all things, no matter where you are. Be thankful. Go and be a legend! ✨

Transcript

Abraham _ Irrational Obedience

[00:00:00] Welcome to This Greater Call podcast. I'm your host, mark, uh, incredible how the journey that this show is taking on, and I'm so thankful to each and every one of you for your engagement. Remember, you can follow us on all the socials at the Greater call, subscribe on YouTube at the same handle. Interact with us because this is the place where you can go.

For lessons on life, leadership and legacy. Now speaking of legacy, my, my guest for episode 11, uh, irrational Obedience, the Story of Abraham. Is a good friend of mine, a former college golfer of mine, and a man now who's making inroads in ministry all over professional golf, Nori Stain Nori. How's it my boy?

Hi, mark. So great to be here. Excited for this. I'm so proud of you. Look, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go on because this is about lessons, but really, [00:01:00] I'm so proud of you for the step in faith that you've taken, and in many ways your journey from South Africa to the United States to college golf. Via, were you in Kansas or somewhere?

Somewhere before you came to us now into ministry on the world. Tours has been incredible. It's almost life changing. Yes. Uh, the, the season in Kansas seems like it was a wilderness season, or almost like Abraham going to Egypt for a minute. I can relate with that. Uh, I did meet my wife there, so it was a good, uh, good stuff.

It was a worthwhile stop. Yeah. It was a worthwhile, uh, journey from the ocean in South Africa to. The middle of Kansas in, in August. Mm-hmm. At hundred Degrees Weather. Now I call this show or this edition of this podcast, irrational Obedience because things that Abraham did almost to most normal, and I use that term loosely to most normal people are like, this guy must have been insane, you know, on the [00:02:00] journeys he went on, on the faith, he showed almost blind faith at times.

Um, and here's a guy looking at the person. Who was Abram, which means exalted father. So already he had a name that was like, okay, this is, I'm a bit of a big deal here. But then God midway through this journey of his changes, his name to Abraham, which means the father of many nations. Mm-hmm. And so I kind of get the pictures, we look at him, that God is in the business of more.

Taking Abraham, making him, Abraham, Abraham taking him, Nuri College golfer, making him a guy who's ministering to golfers around the world. Um, so, so you could speak fondly, I'm sure, to uh, to this, this character of Abraham. Yes. Uh, as we, you know, like I shared with you before as I was prepping for this, and kind of one of the things I love about getting to talk about a specific topic is that, like you and I just spoke about before we started [00:03:00] recording, is that you, uh.

You have to dig in a little bit more than you usually, you know, do from a, from a, from a casual reading. Yeah. And so that was, uh, no more skim reading for me, boy. Yes. Which is a great, it's a, it's a phenomenal thing. That's why I always encourage guys, if you get the opportunity, you know, to teach a Bible study, to do whatever it may be, even on a different topic.

It doesn't have to be the Bible, whether it's your profession or whatever. If somebody asks you to make a presentation, go ahead and do it. 'cause you'll, you'll learn a lot more. But, um, yeah, as I was thinking about this, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't, uh, get away from. This idea of just God's faithfulness, uh, and his pursuit over Abraham's life.

Mm-hmm. And, and thinking of just how kind the Lord is and then has been in my life, like you saying, coming from South Africa, I mean, a little bit of this might have just been some blind faith, you know, like you said a minute ago. And, and, uh. Coming from South Africa, it started for [00:04:00] me when I was about 15.

Uh, and this is a fun story that I, I don't know if I've ever told you this, but, uh, I went to a lady, uh, to that's a, uh, a career counselor and she, you know, did my counseling session and then afterwards asked me what you want to do? And I said, well, I just want go play golf. And she said, you won't believe it.

My son plays college golf. Which I'm gonna make this story short 'cause I don't wanna talk about myself. But ultimately, uh, got this idea of college golf in America, right? And so as any 15-year-old boy who plays golf, you think you can play on the PGA tour quickly found out. Uh, you have to be good at golf to be able to do that very, but, uh, very good at golf.

You know, to make a long story short, I go, uh, end up in Kansas like we just shared. Uh, but before going to Kansas, since Africa, we obviously graduated high school in December and you gotta wait until August when you can come to college. Uh, my parents, we, we, we were in a liquor store business 'cause of extended family and whatnot.

My parents were pretty much trying to get me through college. But during that time, there was a guy who [00:05:00] was a wine rep, and he came by, you know, our business, and, and we started talking and he, his name was Tom O'Neill, and Tom says, uh, do you know Johan Edelman? And I said, well, I've heard of him. Yes, of course, Uhhuh.

And, uh, and Johan says, well, you know, his brother Trevor, obviously won the masters, and he's, I've got a brother Mark who's a coach in Columbus, Georgia, which that started this idea of, man, well maybe I'll go to Columbus. Uh, so I had sent, uh, your email that was on the website, some emails, but I kept getting those, you know, uh, failure, I'm sorry.

Sorry. No, no, no. I'm sorry. The email that when you send the email and it fails to go through, because apparently at that time was right when Columbus State was going from, you know, cole state.edu to Columbus state.edu. Anyway, so I end up in the middle of Kansas. Like I said, wilderness season. And uh, in the midst of that I go, man, I gotta get outta here.

This is cold, it's windy. This is miserable, you know, and uh, I go on Columbus State's website and I happen to see that you have five South [00:06:00] Africans all playing for you on the golf team. One being from a town called Mossel Bay that I was from, or that my parents had just moved to. And so I messaged our friend Johan and, and said, Hey, can you get uh, me to come play at Columbus State?

And to make a long story short, I end up six months later. Walking into your house, uh, getting to play on the team at Columbus State, and here we are through that journey. A teammate of mine said, you can come to this retreat at Davis Loves House. It's free. We're gonna do some Bible studies and play golf.

And in South Africa, coming from South Africa, I was like, free golf Davis Love Bible study. Let's go. And, uh, man, and honestly, I I I, I won't bore you with all the details, but here we are for me with, uh, being a ministry 10 years. You know, now really 12 years of full-time ministry, uh, from this dream of going to play college golf.

Just looking back and going, how faithful is God over this whole journey? And I, and I see this in, in Abraham's life, [00:07:00] as there are these moments of faith where Abraham stepped into the call that God had for him. But then also there are moments when there's doubt and there's mistakes, and there's all these things that he goes through, uh, which I could just relate to.

So much of this, of going man, the moments of, of lack of trust, the moments of sure obedience just because of God's goodness, uh, sometimes blind faith. Um, but yeah. So there's, uh, I'm rambling, but there's so much here that I can relate with, uh, in the story. Well, first off, I'm so thankful you would share that, um, I'm, I am overcome that I would get to play a small part in what you've become.

I can't help but think of how God Almighty and you can't label God. He's the great I am, but he's putting these blocks in place all the time and we don't know the entire story. That's it. [00:08:00] But we've gotta follow in faith. And the one thing I commend you because you action that. Because it's very easy for the aspirant leader or the father or the mother, or the teacher or the mentor to sit back and go, all right, God, here I am.

Use me. And where God's like, well get involved. I'm, I'm gonna order your steps, kind of deal. Yeah. And, and, and I wanna say this, 'cause I'd written this down and I'm sure you could elaborate. Um, Abraham lived, 'cause he was a, he was a wealthy man. Mm-hmm. You know, he lived in a world of com uh, comfort where family and tribe.

The whole thing. 'cause this was right at the start of, you know, civilization, if you will. And so that's all you had. And if you were outside your tribe, there was nothing going on and they didn't have maps and MapQuest and encompasses and stuff to say, well go, go in that direction, you're gonna find something.

Um, but the Lord called him to more and called him to leave his family and to leave his people and to leave the comfort of all of this. Mm-hmm. And travel to an [00:09:00] unknown land. Mm-hmm. Once again, I mean, I know you had this dream of college golf in the United States. Mm-hmm. It was a dream that led to more in your service as a leader, but still there was leaving and you talk about uncomfortability.

Mm-hmm. For the American folks over here listening to this or watching us think of sending your child over to the other side of the world. And then footing the bill Bill when the South African Iran doesn't go very far. Mm-hmm. And then what your child's feeling like away from home too. 'cause you don't have the creature comforts and everything's a challenge and you're essentially almost learning on the job every day is a learning, um, experience.

Yeah. I, I want you to talk about that because that's the one thing that Abraham did. Faith asks us to leave a comfortable situation. Yeah. And you both have done so. Yeah. Um, [00:10:00] you know, this is almost the hilarity of God where if you ask my coworkers, they will tell you that, uh. There are few, uh, who are as passionate about South Africa as I am because I love our country.

I love where I'm from, yet I'm so grateful to now be an American citizen. And, but I, I must honestly tell you, there's not a day hardly that goes by where I don't miss my people. Um, where there's, just for those who are of us, who are from South Africa or from a different country, they can relate to this idea of your people.

You know, you just, you miss your people. Like you and I live in this, particularly in this world of golf, where I dress up with a nice collared shirt and a sweater, and you all of a sudden, from, from the outside, somebody just looks at you and they go, oh, yeah, he's just a country club guy, but they don't know the story.

Yeah. You know, and so often, um, yeah, you get mistaken for, for [00:11:00] something that you're not, and, and, yeah, I, I, it. I don't wanna, I don't want to come across as going. There's so much boldness and obedience from my end. I just view it as that's just how the Lord has orchestrated things in my life. Um, and that the sacrifice that it is to be away from family, from mom, dad.

Extended family, um, ultimately is worth it. Mm-hmm. If I could say it like that. If you, if you start looking at this eternal view, kingdom view, you go, okay, hey, I've got Lord willing, let's say 85 years of life. Um, but if your perspective changes to, Hey, I've got this amount of life, uh, what is the greatest thing I can do with my time that I'm giving?

Right? So we, we have two. If I, the thing I've been preaching a lot on is this, these two categories, one being your identity and one being the assignments that God has [00:12:00] given you. Right? Is that the one answer is, who am I? The other answer is, what am I doing? Um, and, and we wrestle often because what happens is.

This assignment that we think God has given us, it becomes our identity, right? The golfer, you go, who are you? He is like, well, I'm the golfer who does this. It's like, no, no, no, no. You're first and foremost. If you're a Christian, you're a son of the king, right? If you're, you're, you're a son of the king, of the, the universe, that's who you are, first and foremost, and that then also allows you to freely.

Pursue your gifts and the assignment that God has given you to your utmost ability. So therefore you can, like a Scottish Scheffler or a a Russell Henley, whoever it might be, can say, Hey, I'm a son of the king, yet I can compete at the highest level because this is not my identity. This is just what I get to do and I'm not gonna do it very well.

Um, and so, uh, yeah, that's just, I mean, kind of a side note, uh, on that whole idea, but. Yeah. I don't know if that No. Is helpful. Yeah, absolutely. Because [00:13:00] I, I, I'm trying to put myself as we do the show into the environment. First off, which was different to, to you, you joked with me before we went hot. You are like, yeah, this is gonna make you read and ingest your Bible a whole lot more.

Because I could speak about golf ad nauseum, but I can't come into these shows unprepared, so I have to read. So I'm trying to put myself into the situation and into the person. And a lot of the time, all these heroes I put in places where they're like, well, I'm Abraham. I'm Abraham. Abraham. God's seeing me as Abraham.

Abraham. Yeah. Now that's. It kind of weird, but I'm gonna go with it if you will, but all the same. And you list Scotty Scheffler and Russell handling of PGA tour golfers, you know, wildly successful. Um, yet the identity is something different. Mm-hmm. But the identity, like Abraham for argument's sakes, was he was a peacekeeper really.

He was [00:14:00] wealthy, he was a beat and faithful, courageous. Um, yet all a while he wasn't perfect. You know, he's the father of the Jewish nation. Yeah. Yet he lied a couple times. Yeah. To basically protect himself. He lied about his wife being his sister. Yeah. And, and so there was a deception about him. Yet all a while this leader was operating under the covenant of and the grace of God all the time.

So I think that's so appropriate that you would share the story of Russell and Company. Yeah. 'cause that that's, that's who they are. And you'll probably see, I mean, as you study all these, what we call the heroes of the faith. Which is an amazing thing to do, right? Mm-hmm. And if you want to get the summary, you go to the book of Hebrews and you see the Hall of Faith.

Um, but what we, what you'll see as a common thread is, and, and one encouragement I would say is this, is to not be so enamored with the hero himself, but be enamored with the God of the hero. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. [00:15:00] And, and, and, and so the same thing is true for Abraham, or same thing like you did with Daniel last week.

Um, and, and, and we can, we can often look at the lives of these people and, and yes and amen. We need to learn and, and, and glean those things that they do well. But the truth is, is we we're all, we all lack certain things and we all make mistakes. And, and like we just talked about a second ago, is that, um.

We can relate with that. You and I can both relate to the guy that does not have it all together. Yeah. And that's the, that's true for everyone listening to this is, you know, those guys who are so successful, um, man, that's amazing. But I can't relate to a Scotty and a Russell who tease it up, hits it straight, makes a million bucks a week, and then, you know.

That wins trophies all over the place. We, we don't relate with that. The average person that, that's there anomalies in that regard, but, but yet, when they start speaking [00:16:00] about their lives. And I open up about, Hey, here's a, this is a struggle for me personally, or here's just how I'm wrestling with this, or particularly where I'm thinking of just off the top of my head when Scotty was in Louisville and, and all of that whole deal went down.

Yeah, exactly. And yeah, and all of a sudden he just goes, Hey, this was very difficult. Uh, and he becomes honest. All of a sudden we can go, man, I love him even more for being so honest. And the reason is because we can relate with that. Uh, and that's just a lesson for us to take away as we walk through life with people.

Man, if, if we always just put to the forefront our Instagram's best mm-hmm. No one's gonna relate with that. No one's gonna relate with you being in a, in a Mediterranean Ocean. Uh, on a yacht, you know, every week, but people can relate with you when your four kids are throwing a tantrum in the kitchen, you know, uh, that, that's much more relatable.

Uh, yeah, that's, that, that's such a good leadership lesson too, because you know, anyone in a leadership role, from a coach to a manager to [00:17:00] a CEO, father, mother, um, it's like you feel like you've gotta put your best foot forward all of the time. Yeah. And, and, and leadership is hard. I don't care what level of leadership you are.

And I believe, and this was the inspiration for the show, that in our own way, we all have our own sphere of influence. Mm-hmm. And so you're a leader in a certain way. And that, that gets me thinking about, I'd written down here, um, Genesis 15 versus four through six. Mm-hmm. Right? So here it is. I'll read it.

And it's essentially God coming to Abram saying, all right, I'm gonna make you the father of many nations. Um, here we go. Then the word of the Lord came to him. This man will be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be to her. All right. I hope I'm reading this correct because I got my glasses on.

Okay. Um, so this is a promise. It seems impossible to Abram because he is well advanced in, in, in years right now. And then the Lord goes, and then the Lord takes him outside and says, [00:18:00] look into the heavens. Count the stars. Indeed you. If you can count them, then he said, so shall your offspring be. Yeah. Now God's doubling down on this promise where Abraham's like, this is crazy, man.

I'm 80 something years old. I'm well past my cell by date. Yeah. And then the very next verse, Abraham goes, well, it goes, Abraham believed the Lord and he credited to him as righteousness. Yeah. So now here's the thing. So all US leaders, we want to be like, do the right thing and be righteous and all the rest of it.

Here it's saying that righteousness was just a function of believing this crazy promise Yeah. That God's making to him. So I I, I, I feel like we should camp on that because I, I'd love your take on, on that passage of verses there, because those struck me. They really did. Some would say, I think that that particular verse in verse six might be one of the most foundational verses in all of [00:19:00] scripture.

Mm-hmm. Um. And if I could, if we could put the pastoral hat on, so to speak. Uh, what this deals with is in, in our, in our faith, it deals with this topic called justification, which is just a, a courtroom language for how we are made. Right. You are right. This is the idea of being counted as righteous. Uh, and and one thing about every leader you'll ever hear of, every leader you'll read about in the Bible, every human being who's ever breathed on earth will have to answer one question.

Is this is how am I made right with God? How am I made right with the creator of the universe? Uh, and this question gets to that particular, uh, uh, uh. Answer is he believed God and God counted it to him as righteousness. So there's this aspect of faith [00:20:00] which we, if we go on reading in, in Ephesians and so forth, that, that, that faith that we have is actually a gift that is given to us by God.

And because of that, we are counted as righteous. And what this gets to is that it's not necessarily. Abraham being a good guy that made God count righteousness to him. Mm-hmm. It is his faith that made him right with God. It is the ultimate faith. Uh, I want to, I wanna go forward as we build on this because again, I, I can't believe like faith is, you know, believing in the uns.

And, and you're a picture of that to a certain extent. I'm a picture of that as well. Of course Abraham is because he was called to be the father of many nations and the whole story starts with, you know, God saying you are gonna have a child, or you and your wife Sarah are gonna bear a child from your body.

And Abraham, that, that like that, that's impossible. In fact, in Genesis 17, 17, [00:21:00] Abraham believes that he sort of actually laughs at the idea. Yeah. That his wife, Sarah. Exactly. But he still believed God. Yes. So you had this moment of weakness that you talk about. Yes. And then in, in 24 8, to me it's the ultimate infa.

So I'm getting there in a minute. Just gimme a second. I've got my right glasses on so I can now see the, the words on the page is a bit better. Um, Genesis 24,

verse eight. He will send. He's angel before you, so you can get a wife or my son from there. If the woman is unwilling to come back with you, then you will be released from this oath of mine. Only. Do not take my son there. So this is going further in the story where, um, this is after Abraham was called to sacrifice his son.

Mm-hmm. But now they're looking for a wife for his son and his assistant basically is sent into a different [00:22:00] land. Here's the ultimate faith too, where they're like, go there. The wife will be, will be there for you. Yeah. So once again, it's one of these stories where everything in Abraham's life from him to the people around him are all called to this, go and do this thing that I can't really see, but I'm just trusting God in the whole thing.

Yeah. It's, it's a bit and honest if, yeah. If, if we could go back to that original moment of skepticism, if we could say it like that, where they laugh at. At God's Promise because of, you know, Sarah's age. Um, the thought that I had as far as leadership goes and as far as this, even our topic of discussion is going, um, the thing that came to mind was really Ephesians chapter three, verse 20.

It'd be worth for us going mm-hmm. Just to quickly look at that. I think I could get it for us rather fast here. And in Ephesians chapter three, verse 20, it says this Now to him, who is able to do far more abundantly than all. That we ask or think according to the power at work [00:23:00] within us, to him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever, every and amen.

And so this idea that God will do far more abundantly than what you can ask or think, I think the same is true. And that applies to this particular situation where where they go, where it almost seems like God's going, Hey, here's my promise to you. I need you to trust me. And I think the lesson for us is to not underestimate the scope of his promise.

In our lives, in the scope of what God can do if we are willing to trust him. Yeah. I, I, I wanna get to the story of where he's called to sacrifice. He's now only son, which they'd waited for their entire lives. Yeah. Before I go there, I wanna build on that too. Um. Where our covenant keeping God Almighty, who cannot go back on his covenant because part of the story is here too.

So when Abraham and Sarah did not have a child, yet he was called to be the father of many nations. His wife Sarah goes and does a [00:24:00] little business with yes, their servant Hagar, who was Egypt. So not from the tribe. Yep. And goes lie with my husband. Give him a a son. Which he does. The son's name became Ishmael.

Yep. Who was also the leader of many nations. Some argue This is the the Muslim nation. Yep. And at the end of it all Abraham pleads with God to say, don't just bless my son. Bless my other son too. Yeah. And God's like, I will, he will be the father of many nations. Yeah. The blessing of God Almighty is upon your son Isaac.

Yeah, and, and I, I looked at that and I read that a few times and I considered that going. This is crazy how this God that we serve, that calls us to this irrational faith cannot go back on his word, even if it doesn't really fit with his agenda. Yeah. Am I saying that correctly? Yes. The thing that that stood out to me in that particular case was more so first of all, yes, God is, [00:25:00] God's word is, is true and right.

And, and, and he will not ever go back on that promise. Mm-hmm. Um, what I think I took away from that was one, uh, Abraham, Sarah, and Sarah's impatience. Uh, and so then trying to take it into their own hands of going, all right, you know, I'm doubting him. I'm impatient with his plan in my life, and so why don't we maneuver a little bit of what we have in mind and then see how that goes.

Well, that caused some significant strife and, and long term. Conflict. There's con, there's, there's consequence to every action. There's consequence exactly where I was going with this. And so, um, as far as what that looks like for us on a daily basis, I think that, uh, Francis Schaeffer, uh, had a sermon called No Little People.

And in that he talks about. Uh, doing the Lord's work with the Lord's hands, and he's comparing it to doing the Lord's work with our hands. Right? He is trying to do what's, what's supernatural with [00:26:00] natural abilities, right? And we cannot do that. And so, uh, yeah, there was just so much that was relatable Here.

I I have a quote here. That I saw from a guy named Jerry Bridges great author. He says that the cure for impatience with the fulfillment of God's timetable is to believe his promises, obey his will, and leave the results to him. So often when God's timetable stretches into years, we become discouraged and want to give up or try to work something out on our own.

Uh, and I was like, man, I think all of us raise our hands and go guilty. You know. Well that sounds, as you read that, I'm like, gosh, man, Abraham is the case study for this. Exactly. And, and I, and I've, I've got this word in my head, sell by. 'cause we live in this era where, you know, I'm at 55 and fabulous and, and, uh, but, but we, you know, father time is unbeaten and a lot of times we all have this, [00:27:00] the spirit within, right.

And then you've got this dream inside. Then it gets put off by work and commitments and all this sort of stuff. And yet we all this, this calling doesn't wanna leave us. This calling for me was this podcast. Mm-hmm. I guess the story is yet, even though it sometimes seems laughable to now incorporate Abraham, Abraham into the story mm-hmm.

That we never passed our cell by dates. Mm-hmm. It's, it's not, look, human beings have made retirement a thing. But it's never like we completely retired until the day we check out. Mm-hmm. Big feeling where I'm going here. Yeah. My, I, I have a, my, my grandma who's still alive and still operating well, she, uh, she would say that retirement, the word retirement is a cuss word that we should stop using it 'cause uh, it doesn't exist.

And if you know her and see her and see what she looks like, you'll go, okay. I see what you mean by that. Um. Yeah, no, I mean, I totally agree. I don't have more to add to that. I think I [00:28:00] agree with you. Well, let this be inspiration. Mm-hmm. Again, and, and, and I title this 'cause I wrestled with titles for these shows.

And, and I called this the title of Abraham Irrational Obedience. Mm-hmm. Because again, if a bunch of data analysts and stuff would look at his decisions, they'd be like, whatever, man, you, this is no, no chance of this lot happening. Yeah. Yet it did. Yeah. And just at every turn there were more and more miracles happening.

Yeah. Um, and you know, the miracles may look different for us nowadays Sure. Compared to Abraham's David. But, but the one thing that keeps jumping out at me was how Abraham still throughout his leadership, always kept family above everything else. Hmm. He, he, he, he played with God for his brother a lot. Who had moved off to a different area where Sodom and Gamma was.

And um, so, so [00:29:00] he was always sort of not negotiating with God, but he, he, he cared deeply for family. Yeah. And, and this is where you and I both wrestle with us. You've got a young family. I've got a family of two girls and my wife and we both travel on the world tours. So there's a sacrifice about it. Yeah.

And so this is where the whole thing about being a good leader starts with the higher calling, who you believe in. Yeah. The faith and then the family, and then your job. Yet sometimes us, you know, aspirant leaders or leaders or, or, or whatever you might wanna call us, we get the order of those things confused.

And that's when you use the term strife, when strife starts to happen more. Yeah. I think that, first of all, I think Jesus speaks so directly to that particular thing that any man who's not able to manage his own household should be cursed. You know? And, and I think that, I think the household [00:30:00] has become a neglected ministry for, for the Christian men.

Um, and, and I would even add this as someone in ministry. So often the, the, the guy or the person in ministry sacrifices their family on the altar of ministry. Now, now there's a fine line because one, yes, God calls us to make sacrifices a hundred percent, and that does mean there's gonna be time away where I might miss a game or I might miss a.

You know, an activity or a birthday party for the sake of the gospel going to an unknown world. But, um, I think if you are not proactive about that is when it can get dangerous. One of, one of the, the things that I wrote down, uh, from Genesis 16, there's this moment where Abraham. Essentially, uh, Sarah Mistreats Hagar, right?

And, and Abraham just stands [00:31:00] by and, and does not intervene. And it's almost like this avoidance and there's this passivity. Yeah. Uh, and this, this has been something that I've been thinking about a lot lately, uh, just as I'm, you know, as, as me and the guys and a lot of people that do ministry, particularly with men, which is my, our ministry is with young men.

Is that, is, is to help equip guys to not be passive. Yeah. Uh, and, and I think passivity is a big reason for this problem within our homes. Right. Um, Edmund Burke has this famous quote that you probably have heard. Most people have heard this, that the only thing necessary, uh, for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Right. And, and, and I think that that is, is such a. It, it is such, it's such an important topic to talk about of going, all right, hey, as, as both men, young and old is, is do we shrink back? I mean, even asking ourselves [00:32:00] those questions do, do we shrink back when, when there's maybe an opportunity where there's gonna be discomfort, uh, in order to address a certain situation.

Uh, he, and, and the, the reality is this, is that Satan. Uh, he doesn't, you know, he, he, he wins by just us simply not doing anything. Mm-hmm. Uh, whereas we have the Holy Spirit of God inside of us. That gives us strength, that gives us. You know, the power to act. Uh, so really there's disobedience when we're just sitting back passively not speaking into a situation, particularly in our homes, whether it's strife among family members, uh, or strife among just extended family.

And, and, and here's the thing I would say to all of this, is that one thing we miss when, when it comes to dealing with. Call it strife or, or whatever it may be. In the context of family [00:33:00] is the end goal. Okay? The end goal to all these situations in our lives should always be restoration. Not just, I did my duty by telling you that you are wrong, because that's what we often do as Christians.

That's called judgment in the wrong way. Yeah. Scripture does not, does not, uh, say judgment is bad in the sense that if you, if you're calling something out with the intention of restoration. Then you're doing what you ought to do in the context of Christian Brotherhood or, or Christian sisterhood. Um, I'm not, I'm not speaking about somebody who is, who, who might not be a follower of Christ.

Sure. There are moments when you can correct somebody just for the sake of, of humanity. But I'm speaking about somebody who we would say is a brother in Christ or a sister in Christ. 'cause that's a whole different deal. Right. But, but, but being proactive both in, in, in. Acting in a godly manner. And then also with the purpose of, of ultimately restoring the, the relationship between the people and their relationship.

[00:34:00] Uh, you know, with, with, with, with God. Um, yeah, that's the Ulta, you, you have just shared the ultimate lesson in leadership in fatherhood, in motherhood, uh, basically in any sort of situation. Um, and we can, I mean, as I read through the story countless times of Abraham, the word that came to mind for me was diplomatic.

You know, it's like, you're right. He would stand back a little bit at times, or it was always whenever he did a deal, like his arrangement with lot, when there were quarrels between the tribes about who would get what land he looks at a lot. He goes, okay, what do you want? Then just kind of accept that. So there was an element of passivity to it all.

Yeah. Yeah. But, but in the end, I'm amazed how it would all work out despite the misgivings. Yeah. And we talked about that a little bit too. It's so, I'm trying to get [00:35:00] somewhere with this, and the lesson is for the people listening, is that, I guess there's, there's an element of courage of your convictions involved.

Sure. And, and he was to a certain extent, but it's like I keep on thinking about Abraham and then I'm like, wow. Then there's this gentleman, this leader who was a bit passive in his ways, but then somehow when God said, do this, then he is like, no questions asked. Yeah. It, it was nuts. I, I, I want to get to the story of now he's got his only son, born of him and Sarah.

Named the son Isaac. Isaac's a little boy. God calls Abraham to go and sacrifice now his son because the one thing I noticed about Abraham, he built altars all over the show. It says that, yeah, for the record, he was an idol. Worshiper come, came from an idol worshiping family. So just in case you. You're putting [00:36:00] Abraham on this pedestal.

Yeah. On, on, on this pedestal. He, he's, he was not a perfect man. He comes from a messy background. But anyway, so he was building altars all over the show, you know, just for sacrifice and stuff like that. And it seemed to me like he was memorializing stuff a lot. And then God calls him to say, yeah, um, you gotta take your son and go and sacrifice your son.

Now you're right. At that stage there was. Uh, a cadre of people that believed in child sacrifice. So maybe there was some of that left in him, but I can remember, I can, I only imagine going, 'cause it wasn't just like, go and do this outside. He had to venture away to the mountains. Mm-hmm. So it was a trip with a lot of time to think about stuff.

Mm-hmm. And then he's going up the mountain side and his son goes, uh, dad, uh, where is the sheep or the goat or the, the ram that we're gonna sacrifice. In Genesis 22 verse eight, and this is like insane faith [00:37:00] to me, right? Mm-hmm. Or maybe it was just dodging the question. Okay. Abraham goes, God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.

Mm-hmm. Now you can look at, look into this and going, well, this is a precursor for Jesus, but that's a different conversation. Sure. But still, there, there's, there's, there's this. Abraham walking up the hill as a dad with his, his only son. Yeah. Born of him and his wife thinking, I've gotta sacrifice this child now, and I don't care what you believe.

This is, this, I, I couldn't comprehend this. Yeah. And then he gets asked the question, and if anything's gonna tug on your leadership heartstrings, it's that, and then he's no hesitation. He goes, God will provide. Uh, I've rambled, but I, I'm, but it speaks to how much I'm overcome by just this interaction. And lo and behold, Isaac, the altar gets built by the two of them.

Right. [00:38:00] And he lays Isaac down on the altar and he's about to raise the sword to kill the boy. And all of a sudden there's the ram tangled up in the bush, very close to them. Yeah. So it was like God pushed him to 99. Yeah. That he stayed faithful the entire time. Yeah. I can't help, but, and this was righteousness.

Yes. And I can't help but think that that moment, perhaps because he stayed in covenant to the promise God made, he kept his end of the bargain. Yeah. But that moment just washed away everything else that he'd done wrong in his entire existence. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The question I think that comes from that for all, for all of us, is.

The question of what was Abraham's greatest treasure? And what we see from this is that it was not Isaac, uh, but that, that it was God that was his greatest treasure. Mm-hmm. And so for all of us, I think [00:39:00] the practical implication, if we could maybe. Take something very, I don't wanna say surface level away from it, is to go, what do we really treasure?

And are you willing to go lay on the altar? That which is temporary for that which is eternal. Okay. And this is a great way to wrap. I feel like we've covered a lot of this. Okay. Um, I'll summarize in a minute, but let's say right now I am a professional golfer. Nori Stan from college Golf Fellowship meets me.

And you're handsome and you're charming, and you've got a wonderful way with words. And I'm attracted to something within you. I'm not a believer. Um, and then you start speaking to me about God and about Jesus and stuff like that. I'm gonna look at you and go, okay, I'm sort of hearing you. But, so you telling me that I've gotta take something that I don't really [00:40:00] believe in?

I, I want to be greater, what I don't believe in, and I certainly can't see or touch and put that ahead of my Isaac. Maybe it's my golf career or whatever it might be. I, I, I, I'd, I'd love to get your ministerial response to that pasta. Yeah. So I, I'd say first and foremost. Ask yourself the question, whoever you are, whatever you believe somebody listening to this might not believe like we do.

Uh, in Jesus, I, I would say this, ask this question, who or what do I worship? Because whoever you are, you worship something or someone, it might even be something as good as your children. You are like, well, for me, my children is my everything. I think you hear people say that all the time, and I'm like, that's fine.

I know what they mean by that. But ultimately. God created us to worship. We are by, by design worshipers. What we've done wrong is we have [00:41:00] replaced the one that we ought to worship with. What, what, what Romans would say we, we've replaced, uh. The creatures replaced the creator, right? Mm-hmm. And so, uh, and I, and so I think that's the question we gotta ask is to go, okay, so if you're telling me you don't believe in this God, okay, so what then is your God?

And is that worth worshiping? Because here's what I can tell you, and what just about every anecdotal piece of evidence will tell you is worshiping a house, a big house, a fancy car, a lot of money in the bank. Whatever it is that you think the perfect and the good life is, uh, if that's your ultimate, it's gonna, it's gonna let you down ultimately.

And so what I would say just is, is ultimately for somebody to consider the person of Christ Jesus has made too many waves within history, uh, to be ignored. And so we have to ask the question, who is Jesus? Is he who he claimed to be? Did he come uh, in the flesh? [00:42:00] To die for the sins that you and I have to, uh, uh, ultimately stand before God for.

Um, and, and I know this is that at any point, like at the end of the day, we're gonna stand before our creator, and it's either gonna be, we're gonna stand there in judgment or we're gonna stand there under grace, but we're gonna be judged for our lives. And, and, and if, if God's requirement for entering into his presence is perfection.

Then I would say I don't have what it takes. Mm-hmm. And I, I don't think you do either. Um, but what I do have, uh, is somebody who has stood in my place, uh, and that's what we call the good news of the gospel, is that Jesus. Paid the price that you and I cannot pay. Like that's, that's just what I would tell that person is to go.

Ultimately there's a hundred percent chance that we're gonna die. We die because of sin. However, God created the world perfectly to be in relationship with him. Um, and [00:43:00] that's what he desires of you. And that is actually. The design that will make you ultimately live to the, the utmost ability of the purpose that God's called you to.

Um, and so that that'll supercharge your call in life is to do it in a way that it is meant to be done. And so we can elaborate more on that, but that's kind of, I'd say I, I'd say that form. No, that's brilliant. I, I actually do want to elaborate on that a little bit more. Um, first off. Here sort of was my take on, you know, if you had to summarize, I'm not a pastor and you know, all pastors have like four Ps to the cha go and action points and stuff, and I, I was like, believe in the impossible.

You know, I'm, I'm certain that you've given that message daily to professional golfers and college golfers around the place. Um, obey when it seems irrational. Mm-hmm. Um, trust divine timing, which is so hard. [00:44:00] Then embrace the unknown because that sort of sounds like life to me. Anyhow. The question that I did wanna follow you up with, 'cause as you sharing that stuff, Nuri, I was like anyone who's a leader of people or an organization, there's a certain amount of ego involved.

Mm-hmm. You encounter this stuff in the biggest way out there on the PGA tour and such in the live tour and. You talk about worshiping things, I can speak to the fact that, you know, for a while I kind of was really into myself. Okay. Um, and yeah, we might worship our children or our job, or our car or whatever the case might be.

But the biggest lesson through all of this, and now I, I'm circling back to Abraham, was I don't think there was an ounce of self adulation going on. Yeah. Because what I say, pride, pride comes before the fall. Huh. Yeah, we, [00:45:00] uh, we get taught this a lot by just some of my coworkers, particularly the guys that, that lead our organization, that he's, he speaks more about pastors who speak in front of people, but I, we could say this about anybody, um, that has a microphone, is that at any point in time, I'm speaking from that pastoral standpoint is that you can make much of yourself or you can make much of Jesus, but you cannot do both at the same time.

Um, and that's what, when you listen to somebody preach or you listen to somebody on a stage after a golf tournament, they're gonna do one of two things. Uh, they're gonna glorify themselves or they're gonna glorify the Lord. And what I mean by that is not, they have to constantly say, thank God for everything, or whatever it may be.

That's not what I'm talking about. But there's a posture like you were just alluding to of humility that somebody. You can, you can just see it boil out of the, or kind of flow from them without them having to say a word where they go, Hey, this is really not about me. Yeah, [00:46:00] this is about something bigger.

Right. Um, and so that, that's just one thought I had. And then the second one was something we teach our kids, uh, often when it comes to obedience is that that obedience leads to joy. Or, or obedience produces joy. Uh, and I think that's the, the end of this is to not miss that even in Abraham's obedience.

Um, it really does culminate out of his bloodline and eventually Jesus on the cross and then resurrecting from the dead. The ultimate joy Yeah. Of eternal life. Like that's, if, if I think of this in, in a. In an ultimate sense. I go, man, like Abraham's faithfulness and Abraham's obedience, and Abraham just being faithful where he is, right?

Because that's the question everybody wants to know is like, all right, well what do I do now? It's like, well, what do you do now Is you're faithful where you are. God has given you a sphere of influence. Anybody who has a job that that's your world right now and your job is to be faithful. [00:47:00] In that don't always look for the next thing or the better thing or, you know, you probably hear it a lot too, where it's like, well, if I just have a million followers on Instagram, then I'll be able to have a platform.

No, no, no. Your platform is the gospel because that never changes, right? Your platform is Jesus dying for the sins of humanity and giving the invitation of, of coming to him, and that's your platform that you stand on. Um, and, and when that's your, your, your. You're just your, your posture of how you live.

Then, like Paul, you can say no matter in what situation I'm in, I have learned to live with plenty and I've learned to live with nothing. Um, but ultimately to live as Christ and to die as a gain. And so, um, so obedience leads of joy. If we, yeah. If we look at Abraham's life, I just see that over and over.

Um, and how it ultimately culminates to, to our eternal joy. [00:48:00] Wow. That was very, very well put. I have to ask one more question, this, because not all of us work in a Christian or believing environment. Yeah. And so we call to ministry 'cause that is the ultimate calling, right? Um,

it's, it's, I, I don't wanna say it's a learned skill, but there's a courage of convictions to share your faith and what you believe. With folks who don't believe. Yeah, I, so I want you as a sign off Nuri to, because I'm so proud of you. I've watched a young man who had something special about him. You know, take a leap of faith, the sky's you, uh, get into the college golf fellowship organization and I've watched you grow from strength to strength, to a place now where you speak with great authority, great passion, great love, and with no fear about what you believe.

So I, I'm, I'm, I'm keen for you to perhaps [00:49:00] share a, a touch point or some marching orders or something, or just some advice as to making that connection with someone on this spiritual level as opposed to something else.

The question, the thing that just comes to mind, I think this. Maybe that the Lord is putting on my heart as you ask that question is a question I was asked early in ministry is if our ultimate goal is to lead somebody to a deep abiding relationship with Jesus, how are we able to lead them there? If we don't have that, essentially how can we lead a thirsty horse to a trough of water?

If you don't even know where that trough is. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so I think that in order for you to, to essentially become a good evangelist in your workplace, [00:50:00] when, when life squeezes us, whatever boils over and whatever comes out of us, it's gonna be what's truly inside of us, right? Like when, when life gets difficult, and it will, for all of us suffering will come.

Um. What, what, what, what boils out or what spills out, if I could say it like that, is what's truly inside of us. I always tell guys, I ask this question, why is good theology important? Why is it important to believe the right things about the God of the universe? Because we get so inundated with, you know, things we see on social media or what the TV says, and nobody really sits down and actually just reads the word of God and go, oh wow.

Like I always say this, if, if the nonbeliever knows and believes that the Jesus, like I know him from scripture, he would probably believe in Jesus as well. 'cause he's gonna go, oh yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna believe in that. Of course I have. Mm-hmm. But, but because we have so many influences that's, that's twisted our, you know, our view of who Christ is.

We, we tend to believe the wrong things. And the reason having good theology is so [00:51:00] important and, and believing the right thing about God is so important is because when those difficult moments come, um, it'll be the anchor. It'll be the thing that holds you and, and, and, and essentially helps you persevere through life.

Uh, in every facet of the way. And, and it also was gonna give you that moment so that when you're with a coworker who is vulnerable, who needs your help, that you can graciously with words, seasoned with salt, speaking to their lives in a way where they're gonna go, this person actually cares about me for this reason.

He know that he's a sinner, he knows that he's been forgiven, and now all he gets to do is extend that grace to someone else. I think the moment we think that we are above someone or that we are beyond someone else is when, that's why we have people that are called hypocrites, right? We all are, to an extent, hypocrites, but the, the way to, if I could say it, it's probably not a word, but un hypocrite yourself, is to go to the foot of the cross and consider.

The [00:52:00] forgiveness that was given to you. And when we do that, it's pretty easy to go out and give grace to the next person because I know how much I've been forgiven of. Yeah. And so that's what I would say is go to the trough yourself. Go sit with Jesus on your own. Uh, go, go, go. Without any. Distractions.

Just open the word of God. Go read the New Testament to yourself, and then you go work through the Old Testament and see how it's the blueprint for what is to come, how the one is preparatory and predictive, and the one reveals our savior. And so that would be my, my parting words, if I could say it like that.

Sensational, uh, incredible, incredible message. Wonderful insight about, uh, Abraham, Abraham, Abraham, the father of many nations. Um. Nori, your wisdom is, is palpable. And I'm certain there's folks that gonna wanna speak with you or reach out. If so, is there a place they can go? Um, share, share a contact, if you will?

Yeah, I think, uh, college Golf Fellowship's website, [00:53:00] uh, Instagram is probably the best way. My email is on our website. Uh, it's ww.college golf fellowship.com. Um, yeah, I think that's probably your best, best bet, uh, to go find us if you have a. College golfer, uh, in your household. Either they know of us or they should know of us, but everything we do for these boys are, are free to come to.

Uh, that's how I was introduced. So I got told I can come to Davis loves house, it's free, we're gonna play some golf and do bible study. And I was in, and, uh, that's, that's essentially what we get to do. And uh, it's, it's a fun deal. And so, yeah. And folks, I was a college coach for over 20 years. I saw many young men come and go, many men with dreams, many men that worked hard, many men that might not have worked that hard, but everyone wanted to be something bigger.

And I can comfortably say of all the folks I've encountered, and we had a lot of them, that Noria is by far and [00:54:00] away now the most impactful leader of the bunch. And I commend you about for that. Nori. Thank you. I commend you for your. Irrational obedience and for your faith. That is, that I can feel and I wish you nothing but the very best, uh, in your future endeavors, mate.

Thank you. Again, thank you so much for downloading this podcast. Uh, you can share it with your friends. Please share it with your friends. I'm sure there's that one special friend that you have on your mind right now. So go ahead, clip it. Share it. They can, you can send them to YouTube at the greater call or to Instagram or to x.

And give us a follow and reach out to Nori and the college Golf Fellowship. You will be blessed by who they are. In the meantime, appreciate you all. Love you all. Go and be a [00:55:00] legend.