The Greater Call Podcast – James | Brotherly Advice with Stephen Bunn

In Episode 15 of The Greater Call, Mark Immelman is joined by Stephen Bunn, Vice President of College Golf Fellowship and longtime PGA TOUR chaplain, for a rich and deeply practical conversation centered on the book of James—often called the Proverbs of the New Testament.

Through personal stories, leadership insight, and honest reflection, Mark and Stephen explore how James—Jesus’ own brother—offers timeless guidance on faith in action, humility, perseverance, wisdom, and controlling the tongue. This episode challenges listeners to live out their faith authentically, especially in leadership, relationships, and everyday decisions.

In This Episode, You’ll Discover:

🎙️ Why James’ transformation from skeptic to servant matters deeply for modern faith
🎙️ How encountering the resurrected Jesus changed James’ entire worldview      🎙️ Why the book of James is a practical leadership and life playbook
🎙️ What it truly means to “consider it pure joy” during trials
🎙️ How perseverance produces maturity, completeness, and lasting strength
🎙️ Why faith without action falls short of true discipleship
🎙️ The power—and danger—of the tongue in leadership and relationships
🎙️ Why listening is one of the most overlooked leadership skills
🎙️ How humility dismantles favoritism and transforms influence
🎙️ What servant leadership looks like in real-world settings, from ministry to the PGA TOUR

🔑 Key Verses Mentioned

James 1:2–4 — Joy and perseverance through trials
James 1:19 — Quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger
James 1:22 — Be doers of the Word, not hearers only
James 2 — Warning against favoritism
James 3 — The power and danger of the tongue
James 4 — Humility and submission to God
Ephesians 4:31–32 — Putting off bitterness, putting on kindness and forgiveness

🔥 Takeaways

 ➡ Faith is proven through action, not intention
 ➡ Trials refine leaders when met with perseverance
 ➡ Joy is rooted in trust, not circumstances
 ➡ Listening builds wisdom and credibility
 ➡ Words can heal or harm—choose them carefully
 ➡ Humility creates lasting influence
 ➡ Servant leadership reflects the heart of Christ
 ➡ God uses ordinary people who live with obedience and grace

🙌 About Stephen Bunn

Stephen Bunn serves as Vice President of College Golf Fellowship, where he helps disciple and mentor college golfers, coaches, and leaders across the country. A longtime PGA TOUR chaplain, Steven is known for his humility, wisdom, and passion for helping others live out their faith authentically.

🌐 Website: https://collegegolffellowship.com

🎙️ Follow Mark Immelman

Instagram & YouTube: @MarkImmelman
Facebook: @markimmelmangolf
X: @mark_immelman
LinkedIn: @mark-immelman-87ab46162
Website: markimmelman.com

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Website→ https://markimmelman.com/the-greater-call/

✨ Be full of joy in all things, no matter where you are. Be thankful. Go and be a legend! ✨

Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to this Greater Call podcast. It is episode 15 about James Brotherly Advice and me being a brother. This one is especially, uh, poignant. Um, uh, as always, this is your place to come for lessons on life, lessons on leaving a legacy, lessons on leadership. Remember to follow us on all social handles.

We are at the greater call also on YouTube search and subscribe there and tell your friends because friends, Romans countrymen, we have a guy I've admired from a long way away for the longest time, and his name is Stephen Bunn, the VP of the College Golf Fellowship. Stephen, you've been a chaplain on the PGA tour for Next ever.

Uh, man, what a job. Thanks. Thanks for joining the show. Hey, mark. It is a great, uh, privilege to be here. And likewise, I can, uh, echo that right back. [00:01:00] Um, my encounters with you over the years, uh, through college golf on the landscape there many, many years ago. Um, you've had some very dear friends of mine play for you, uh, over the years and also, uh, maybe we'll go offline with this, but I, I do have a question because something.

Child rearing in South Africa has worked because every South African that I have known over the years on the PGA tour and throughout college golf, I think one of the first men I ever met was a guy named Wayne Roth from South Africa. Yes. I dunno if you remember that name. Uhhuh. And, uh, and it just goes on and on and on over the years.

And I have found them all to be, uh, enjoyable gentlemen, uh, who somehow it, it, there has to be something in the water there where they're being raised. Right. You know what it is, uh, in Proverbs, somewhere it goes, spare the rod and spoil the child. Hey, well done. But no, it's a privilege to be on with you this morning.

Well, I'm so glad you would join us. Uh, [00:02:00] for the folks watching on YouTube, you will see he's disguising it discreetly. But Stephen, just like me, is, uh, uh, an Alabama University of Alabama fan. So roll Tide, my friend. Um, let's dive in. Um, before we let we, before we talk about James, the person and folks, this is not James the Apostle, 'cause I got myself confused at one stage too.

This is James, uh, a brother of Jesus amongst other brothers and his book is known as the Proverbs of the New Testament. And it's kind of like, if you wanna practical guide to, you know, being a good person and being a Christian and being a leader. James has five chapters and it's loaded with advice. Um, so, so, so just your, your quick insights please, Stephen.

I think one of the most intriguing things to me and, uh, James, who there are two jameses, right? Mm-hmm. And so this is James, the brother of, of Jesus. And I think one of the most intriguing things to me, um, is in, in my own life and in my own story, uh, to say that [00:03:00] I am a skeptical person as an understatement.

Mm-hmm. And so in, in all of the ways that my life journey has brought me to where we are today, if, if your listeners knew me well. And they knew my story. They would understand. Um, just the, the craziness of the fact that I'm sitting here today on this show with you as someone that you're wanting to get some insight on, uh, even any book of the Bible, uh, and especially if there were to be anything on how faith plays out in life.

Mm-hmm. And so for me, I, I can't look past this without knowing to me the most significant aspect of the letter that we have, or this book that we have from James. In early in the gospels, in the, in the record of this, we see that James, who was the very brother, half brother of Jesus, grew up household with him in the same household with him.

Brothers did not as, as we see in scripture, did not believe [00:04:00] in his brother in the terms of who his brother is and was. Yeah. But yet we get all the way over to the early. Days of this fledgling church and we see that he is not only believing in his brother now, he now worships him as God. Mm-hmm. And, and so that is so intriguing to me because what transpired between an adult James who didn't fully see, I mean, he, he knew his brother.

And you know how it is with your brother sometimes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um. And even my own children sometimes I still wanna put the standard of how they were when they were 15 on 'em now that they're grown men. Yeah. Um, rather than allowing the maturity of life to, to kind of squeeze out and see them in a new light.

But nonetheless, going back. You know, James would've known the special treatment in a sense that there was something different about his brother. Mm-hmm. [00:05:00] And I think when it says that he didn't believe in him, I don't know that it meant that he didn't have confidence in his brother. Uh, obviously it's in reference to, to the fullness of who Jesus is and was.

Yeah. And in acts when we see that he now worshiped him as God. What took place in between those references that made the difference? And we obviously. If you know anything about the story of Christmas, the story of Easter and the story of Bible, you know exactly what it was, is James, the brother of of Jesus, saw his brother die and saw him resurrected.

Yeah. And something powerful took place because he had an encounter with a resurrected Jesus. And so that's, that, that kind of, you know, is my OnRamp and into James that all of a sudden I have great interest in how God is gonna use him to write this letter to encourage us in 2025. [00:06:00] Well, it's really the perfect OnRamp, you know, as I listen to you, Stephen, because the, the purpose, the mission of this show is to, you know, introduce Jesus.

To people, even though we are learning about heroes of the faith. And if you go to he, he, uh, Hebrews where they list the, the Hall of Faith, you know, with all the heroes. James isn't listed in there, but gosh, when you, you have a guy that writes one of the books of the Bible, and, and, and you look at who he was.

He, he was a leader in the early church. Um, you, he, you said this, and, and I'll paraphrase, he calls himself a servant of God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, this is a brother, now he has a personal anecdote, right? I, I have a brother who's a star. Um, he's won the Masters, which is a big deal in golf. And you know, I've, I've always been older brother and at one stage I was coach and instructor and I'd give advice and counsel and mentorship perhaps, um, but, you know, I don't wanna call it sibling rivalry.

As I [00:07:00] watched Trevor Ascend and become a PGA tour winner and the Masters champion, and now the role that he is in, I have this admiration, but I'm like, gosh, he's my brother. You know, and, and, and reconciling this thing sometimes is, is easy. Sometimes it's hard. So I can only imagine if you, James. And you have a brother that's savior of the world, like, uh, you know, I'm maybe a little jealous.

I think, I mean, there's this, I can only imagine the emotions for young James and then to have this, you know, epiphany maybe as you describe it, and to see his brother die and be and rise again. Not to call himself a servant of his brother. I mean, that is the ultimate. In in mind shift, it's, it's an incredible story, and we could camp there forever.

Mm-hmm. We could, and I. As you look at the life of James, and even as you go through and you read the fullness of the book of James mm-hmm. It is full man. Gosh. Yes. It is very [00:08:00] full. It it, and it, it, it looks apparently like it jumps around almost like it's choppy in a sense, but it really, it, it contains great building blocks all the way through, but it's astonishing that he says the things that he says.

He only references his brother's name twice. In the book. Mm-hmm. Which is interesting. Yeah. But it's all under he, it it's because to him it's so obvious and it's under the umbrella of it. But you see the remarkable, there's something remarkable that changed in the, in the life of James, because even he, he talks about comparison and rivalry and all, you know, he, he, as he begins to unpack these things, you wonder how much of that is coming from.

The first row seat of a brother like you brought up, you know, and, and, and for him to say, Hey, show me. Let me show you. And he and, and he, there was nothing braggadocious about this. Mm-hmm. But he was saying like, in a sense, examine my life. Look at, [00:09:00] look at the works that I'm doing. Look at how I am serving my brother.

Look at my God. And you'll see that there is life change that takes place, that there is hope that there like that, even in the midst of life blowing up around you. You know, in chapter one he says, consider it pure joy. And that doesn't say, put on a fake smile. It doesn't say, walk around and act like life isn't hard.

We all know the reality of how difficult life is, but he says to have a mindset to, to sink your mind into and to see that possibly even in the midst of what is so difficult, even in the midst of that, because of who my brother is. Because he is not just a man, he is God and flesh, which is mind blowing.

Mm-hmm. Because of what he has done to my own brother, to who has the power to forgive me of my imperfections. That even in the midst of the difficulty of life, I can have a mindset that he [00:10:00] is going to work things out. That there is a plan and that, and this is what's amazing. Here is the brother that's basically saying, and I'm paraphrasing a brother, saying, Hey brother, make me more like you.

Yeah. What can give someone that humility, but uh, gosh, as a brother, you know the reality. Yes, exactly. I can only imagine me going to Trevor and going, Hey, um, I wanna be more like you. I mean, I can imagine the giggles and the laughs and the banter and stuff that would go on. Um, I mean, I mean, seriously, side note.

Yes, I know you've beat him many times in golf. Come on. That stuff ceased when I was about 21 when I was an All American and he was, that 21 makes him was, my math makes him 13 ish, 12 and he beat me for the first time. And that was that my, my career pivoted from trying to be the best golfer in the world to, uh, okay, I've gotta find something else now.

'Cause I can't beat [00:11:00] my household. And so that's why the story is so special to me and, and personally. I remember in college, I, I was over at Columbus State and I was staying in the summer, uh, with a family in Montgomery, Alabama, Dr. Rick and Candice Love, and there was a new church starting very close to Winex Golf Club, and we were joining there and, and Rick was a, a member of the church and he supported them financially.

And so the pastor came and visited a house lot and one evening out of the blue, the pastor asks me, so what's your favorite book in the Bible? And I was like. James and I was not a big Bible reader at the time, and, and, and he, he looked at me, he goes, wow, uh, don't you find that a little too confrontational and direct and stuff?

And I was like, oh, shucks, I'm gonna get myself into a conversation as dangerous. Yeah. So I was like, yeah, I guess. But I just liked it. So then I went and read it. And ever since James has kind of been like a practical guide to me, just as, even if it's not Christianity, just to be a better person. Because if you look at the themes through it, [00:12:00] there's, it's like faith and deeds, which you spoke of.

Mm-hmm. And, and, and I do wanna, before I go through it and we dive into him, you are right. You said this, James was watching his brother. 'Cause Jesus is the ultimate leadership playbook, right? So he's just watching his brother jotting stuff down and going, this is how it's gotta be. So faith and deeds, which was at odds with Paul at the time.

'Cause Paul was like, it's all about grace and stuff and have faith where James like, no, you've got to faith with that. Deeds is dead. So faith indeed's, perseverance through the trials, you've touched that. Seeking wisdom, controlling your tongue, uh, which is a biggie for a leader. Uh, anyone who wants to be influential, uh, and humility and resisting worldliness.

Hey, mark, that would start in the home. You know, even if you're not the leader, your ultimate CEO of the company, you know, within the home. I mean, think of the damage that the tongue can do. Within the home with our mouth and our words. Uh, I, I grew up on the playgrounds saying, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

That is [00:13:00] one of the biggest lies of all time. Mm-hmm. Now they don't have to define me. Yeah. But they do hurt and, and there's incredible power. And Ja James describes it, uh, in a much more severe and powerful sense than I think I could have. Yeah. He, he called the. What do you call a tongue? A raging fire?

Yes. Yes. Anyway, so it corrupts the entire body. I, I wanna get into that because that's one of the things. Um, but I wanna start here. Um, in preparation for the show with you, um, I was on assignment, um, I shouldn't date this, but, uh, we, we were calling the Hero World Challenge from, uh, PGA to our headquarters.

So I'm, we get off early, so I'm driving back to Columbus from Jacksonville. And it's dark and it's rainy and I've got the Bible app on playing. Uh, you know, you can get the audio to read the Bible back to you. So I'm in James and I listened to James a few times, and the voice they had narrating this thing sort of sounded like a college professor who is about 70 something years [00:14:00] old.

He's got wonderful inflection and so many times when you read the Bible, you gloss over words and it's just kind of, you know, you zip through the stuff and you don't really consider. And the first one, 'cause James kicks off one. One. Oh, no, one. One. He introduces himself, servant of God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Greetings. And now this guy's reading to me and he goes, considerate, pure joy. And then because he is a good narrator, he stops at the comma. My brothers, when you face trials of many kinds, stop. And usually you read that verse because that's one of those that all Christians kind of put on their bulletin board, right?

And they're all reading the, uh, the, the, the other stuff. And he goes, consider it pure joy when you face trials. And something made me just stop the reading there and I'm like, gosh. So now pure joy. Then I go and like, so I get home, I'm [00:15:00] like, okay, joy, joy, joy, joy. You know, I know the songs and all the rest of it.

So I go and look at the meaning of joy in Greek. Because it's said that James wrote this book in Greek, I believe the Greek word is C chara, which means deep seated peace and contentment. That comes from knowing God is in control, and it allows us to anticipate a positive outcome instead of being miserable.

So I wanna start there for people, you know, if you wanna influence lives and stuff, the in the opposite of joy is being miserable. Mm. And as soon as you're in a trial, it's easy to become miserable. Mm mm And then at the end of it, it goes because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance.

And that's like a, okay, this is good news. But then it goes, 'cause I've never read it this way. It says, perseverance must finish its work so that you ma may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. And I've never thought, whenever I've read [00:16:00] that stuff, I've never thought about it. It's kinda like, oh, good news.

Um, when I face trials, oh, this is gonna be okay. Trials are nasty and it's like it's going to, uh, it's gonna test your faith, but then you will develop perseverance, which I'd never read as a noun. I was like, we keep on doing something and it's like, perseverance must finish its work. So this is basically James God telling us, yo, you've gotta face these trails.

You've gotta be joyful going through them. Don't be miserable. Welcome this opportunity leader, father, coach, manager, pastor, whatever you are, because this perseverance must finish this work so you can be mature and you can be complete and you can, and and, and you can be in a place where you're not lacking anything.

And I was like, oh, I've, you know, this was like hair on my arms standing up kind of thing. I'm not sure what to add to that, but I want you to react, please. Well, so here, not only is it, is it amazing is okay. [00:17:00] Big picture. Yeah. The Bible was never intended to be a strand of pearls where each verse stands on its own.

Okay. So Uhhuh, uh, when we read James, we read it within the context of the greater narrative. Yes. Right? So when we read, uh, Paul and, and he is talking about grace. Being justified by fate. The alone, you can't read that separate from James. You must read them together to understand a greater context. And so even when I look there and I see consider, which we talked about that as a mindset, right?

And, and the opposite of, uh, of joy as defined there by the Greek word is, is not only being miserable, but also. Think about this because sometimes we can, we may not be miserable or at least we don't think we are, but when we are discontented, not satisfied. Yeah. Feel as if we are lacking. Mm-hmm. And so if you think about our, [00:18:00] in my own life and my pursuits, um, you know, even things like, uh, our desire and our appetite to eat food.

So, um, I, you know, came off of Thanksgiving weekend and, and on Thursday we gathered and had a big feast and, you know, and in my mind it's like, ugh, I'm never gonna eat again. Right. I'm full. I have everything that I need, but what's gonna happen, you know, now at my age, metabolism's slower, but metabolism begins to do its job, right?

And lo and behold, about eight o'clock on Thursday night and I'm pulling all the leftovers out, you know, starting warm up, right? I was not satisfied, Uhhuh. And so, but so the encouragement part of this, and here's where I'm going with that. The encouraging part of this is to your listeners. One thing that we all have in common is we have some desire that is put in us to want more.

Yeah. Um, that, you know, you, you win. [00:19:00] You know, like when your brother, and if I'm, I, I'm not very good with math, but I think, did he win the year after Zach in zero 8,008? Yeah. Yeah. And so, and Zach is a dear friend of mine who won in oh seven. Your brother wins in oh eight, and guess what happened in oh nine?

There's another master's champion. Yeah. Right. And it, and it moves on and time goes. And so there's something in us that always desires more. And so we, we always feel, uh, a little bit like we're lacking. Yeah. But. The bigger message here that I would love to share with anyone that's listening is that the, the great overall message of the Bible is this.

God has given you that appetite, the appetite to want more. Mm-hmm. But nothing, and where it, where it goes to the punchline of this and what James is even pointing to is that nothing can fulfill ultimately that appetite. Yeah. But what he has [00:20:00] created in you and the relationship that he wants to have in you.

So in a sense, now this gets into a lot of stuff that maybe, you know, uh, your, your audience wrestles with this. I do. But the, the inevitable is going to be that all of us are gonna, our bodies are breaking down, winding down. Life comes up, life goes down. In other words, we're all gonna come to our end. But the overall, again, narrative of the Bible is that because of God's hatred for the brokenness of this world, the brokenness within me, the brokenness outside of me, the brokenness in the heavenly realms, everything is broken in the entire Bible.

Biblical narrative is to bring us to a place where we can see that God, through his kindness and his incredible love for his creation, has provided a way. That, that there will be a new heaven and a new earth that will be void of this brokenness. Yeah. And so my mindset [00:21:00] now, how can I consider it joy when I'm suffering, or maybe when someone is mistreating me or I've had an injustice done to me is because, and this is a, a very crass way to put this, but that's because I'm in the practice round right now.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. And the, the reward and the fulfillment, the ultimate identity, the new heaven and the new Earth awaits me. Therefore, I can have the, the audacity to, when it looks like to my neighbors that everything's falling apart in my life, that I can say, I'm gonna consider it, I'm gonna put my mind on the fact that this God who loved me enough to provide a way.

To have a relationship with him and have eternal life with him, that that guy that loves me that much will get me through. And he is not only just gonna get me to the finish line, he's actually going to use it to make me more like James' brother. Very cool. Yeah. Well, well, well further on, I [00:22:00] mean, in the diatribe opening, 'cause James hits you like right in the face from the start.

And then he talks about, uh, when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea blown in toss by the wind, which is a lesson in itself, but I don't wanna go there. But in verse 12, James one, it says, blessed is the man or woman who perseveres under trial because he hast stood the test.

He will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. And that's saying what you say there? Mm-hmm. So here in this practice round, you gotta persevere. You gotta dig in there. I mean, there's ups and downs and stuff, and you can't be all morose when things aren't going your way because it's just part of this thing we're involved in.

Absolutely. Yeah. And if you persevere, you will mature and you'll be complete and you won't lack anything. And then you'll receive the crown of life, which is. Which is cool if, but, but it's so hard, don't you think, Stephen, to look at that when you wake up and everything's going wrong? Of course it is. Yeah.

And that's why, again, the entirety of the Bible, but even [00:23:00] James goes in and says this, it's James is not calling you in your own mic to live some life of perfection. Yeah. In fact, Paul even puts it this way. He says. So the, the good news of the gospel is the fact that God's standard is absolute perfection to his law, both in our actions, our thoughts, and even our intentions.

So right away, I'm absolutely a violator. Um, I'm, I'm done. I'm done. So, right. But what the good news of the gospel does that a high cost himself, Jesus provides his rightness or righteousness mm-hmm. To us. And, and, and that's, that is what the free gift is. It wasn't free to him, but it's free to us. And so because of that, now that, that I am right in him, not self right, self-righteous, but in him, it's not this, this life of perfection.

And even what James is calling to it, it goes hand in hand with Paul who said to practice that righteousness. So literally practice. So that [00:24:00] means that when, as as I go out, as I go throughout my day. Um, I have many opportunities of whether I can trust God or I'm gonna trust myself. Yeah. Right. And trusting myself is when I fall short.

And so it's not if it's when I'm going to do that. Mm-hmm. And so James even comes back to this as he calls us to, to put action into our faith. Yep. Right. There's, I mean, we all know that our, our fathers taught us that, you know, your, your, our words are, are cheap. You know, it's, you say you love me. But your actions completely say something else, and those words become cheap.

Right. But James even goes through and talks about how we confess to one another. It's why Mark, if you and I were neighbors. And, and we are both encouraging and spurring one another long in these very things. Hey, let's practice our faith. Let's practice our faith. Let's put it into play. You know, it's like, okay, this person is making me so impatient, so angry, you know, and you're, you're [00:25:00] coming to me going, Stephen, trust.

Trust the Lord in this. Show them kindness. Show them the grace that was given to you. So you're encouraging me to do it, but when I mess up, because I'm going to, yeah. If James even touches in that, I could come to you and say, brother, I gotta tell you, man, I blew it. I blew it with, you know, Mrs. Jones across the streets, cat, you know, whatever the situation might be.

Right. And we, we rest in the fact that we are not working to earn God's love and his grace. Mm-hmm. We are working out of the fact that he does love us and offer his grace. Does that make sense? Yeah. So much so. Yeah. Yeah. I can't help you. I mean, for the folks watching on YouTube. Well, you can see there I, I'm a highlighter and a, a liner in my Bible.

It seems like every verse is basically highlighted in James for some reason or underline, and I'd written it, by the way, I loved your phrase. This is literally a playbook of the of of those who follow [00:26:00] Jesus. Not again, not in order to earn his love, but because of what he's done for you. You can have the courage to live this way.

Exactly. And, and, and, and, and there's, there's promises to everything. And, and I think it was Pastor Chris Hodges from Highland's Church had done a sermon and it was out of James. Yeah. And it was said, God's religion equals, and religions not the right word, but you know, this is God's economy. Control your tongue, care for the needy and exhibit personal holiness, which is all you do.

And so with that, I wanna pivot to, um. Because again, James is hitting hard like this. He's like my wife, he's like a guillotine, you know, just straight down the line, pure truth, and you gotta tolerate it. And then he goes into, um, one 19 where he goes, dear brothers, take note of this. Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak.

And slow to become angry. I'm just gonna stop over there because, 'cause [00:27:00] if you put listen in life, like my dad always used to say, you've got two ears in one mouth. Figure out the economy. Okay. Um, I had, uh, and this is just, this is completely anti the world we currently find ourselves in where everyone's broadcasting on social media all the time and no one's listening to anybody.

Um, listen, uh, we, the. I don't remember the date, but I think it was maybe a year or so after the initial wave of the live tour came into play. All right. Yeah. And there was some, it wasn't an agreement, but there was something, I can't even remember. You probably followed it really closely. Was closely, sadly, there was something about a year into, 'cause it was in the summer and I remember it well, it was in June.

Mm-hmm. And, uh, my phone. I had to recharge the battery mult, you know, like twice, multiple times in the day talking to players who, um, are, were very confused and some were angry and, and I quoted this verse [00:28:00] the entire day, really. But the funny part that you're gonna appreciate, um, as an, as an Alabama fan, uh, that day I had just had it like I was done.

I, I live in Birmingham, Alabama. I was tired, exhausted. Uh, my son was, who worked for JC well, uh, in college, the golf coach at Alabama. Mm-hmm. Who is a dear brother of mine. Yeah. Um, I, I just told my wife, I'm driving the hour drive down to Tuscaloosa. They're, they're having golf camp right now, and my son was working it.

Okay. And I drive down the hour drive just to get away, just go beat some balls and, and hang out with Jay. I pull into the gate at five 15, the camp ends, all the kids are leaving. And you can imagine you've worked golf camps, how exhausted you are. Jay Cwell says he looks up and sees two cars coming through the gate.

Both were aware that it was the golf camp. It was me and Nick Saban. Okay. And it, uh, and so we get there and Coach Saban, which is, that's kind of his oasis in town. He comes out there to hit balls with Jay all the time. And, uh, and so not a big deal that he's there, but we pull in about the same [00:29:00] time and Jay kinda shakes his head, you know, it's like, here I am at the end of this long day.

Both of these guys are gonna want me looking at their swing. Yeah. And taking my time. And we get there. Coach Saban asked me about the, the live situation and all that had gone on that day. And I shared a, just a very briefly about the day, but I quoted James one 19 to him and I told him that I quoted this all day.

Let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, right, and slow to anger. And he made some comment and I leaned down and I yelled at him and I said, did you hear what I just said? Slow to speak. And he just started, he started dying laughing. But that was a great, but that was a great moment here to apply that because guys didn't fully understand.

They didn't know everything that was going on. You. You had some that thought people in leadership were making great decisions and some that thought they were making terrible decisions, but in the moment what it called for. And, and these are the guys that I feel more responsible for the guys that have put their faith and trust into the brother of James.

Right. Jesus. [00:30:00] Mm-hmm. And, and this was the thing that I encouraged and challenged them on is be slow to speak. Yeah. Quick to listen. Let's understand. Let's, and that, and that ties right into the wisdom aspect. Boy, is that a difficult thing? Because we, if, you know, if you push me, my instinct is to want to do what?

Push back, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm, uh, we can be quick for that, but there's so much wisdom in this. Oh, golly. Uh, yeah. I mean, we could stop it right there. Um, we. For, for me, I, I, when I read this and I really considered it because again, and this is one of these that I've, I've read and I'm like, you read it and you're like, okay, I did my job.

I read my Bible for the day, and then you don't go and apply it, you know, the faith in the deeds thing. Mm-hmm. And I, I'll never forget when I was at Columbus State and I was raising money for a, uh, a new golf facility for the university. And, you know, I'm in a place where, because I give golf lessons, I know some really influential people.

So I set up meetings with a lot of them and I go and meet with [00:31:00] this gentleman who, uh, is the now the godfather to my two girls. Uh, this is how much I respect him. And, um, his name's Chris. Uh, if you listening, Chris, you know who you are. Anyway, but Chris is just a very, very wise man. So I go into his office and I meet with him and he knows it's coming.

That I'm gonna come and propose, you know, him giving some money to this course. And he sits me down at his conference table. It's just me and him. And he sits at the head and he is, he's, he's gentle in manner, but he is, he's an imposing guy, you know, he's got an aura about him. And I'm sitting there and then there's me.

And I'm nervous as a cat, as you can imagine. And I lay out the whole thing, how, what? Why, you know, what we'd love him to give, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I remember him when I'd finished, I was waiting for the like, Hey, sure, okay. And he looked at me and he sort of looks down and ruffles with a [00:32:00] paper a little bit, and he looks around like this and it felt like an eternity.

It was probably 10 seconds. And then he goes, okay. And then he asked me a question in a few words, and then I went on my spiel. And, uh, it, it went on like this for a while, and at the end of it, all of it, he said, look, we'll happily support, but you must understand that Lisa and I, we support Christian initiatives.

And the reason why we're gonna justify this is because we know you're gonna impact these men positively. For good, not necessarily go. Mm. Anyway, I appar long story to, to say that looking back on that interaction. This was a man who listened. Mm-hmm. And he's a titan in business, like a, just a colossus in the bus business industry.

Mm. And when we were in there in this meeting, I said a thousand words and he said, probably a hundred mm. He listened [00:33:00] mm-hmm. Intently. And that listening, the way he listened was almost intimidating. Do you feel me over there? Yeah. Almost like the, the, the quiet, the quietness of it, you know, just becomes loud.

Yeah, yeah. Exactly Right. It's, it's an incredible skill. Mm. And it's, I feel like parents, kids, coaches, whoever, you know, as a co a former coach, we were always talking like, you talk about Nick Saban, right. To take time to listen. You know, that's where the real wisdom is. And, and James spoke about garnering wisdom.

Then he also talked. Now this is part of the thing in chapter three, we've talked about the taming of the tongue. Now this is hard for anybody to really consider your words. I, I find this as a daily endeavor for me. 'Cause James calls the tongue, uh, a raging fire. Mm-hmm. He compares it to, um, the rudder on a big ship.

Mm-hmm. There's a mighty ship that'll get steered by a small rudder. He calls it a spark that [00:34:00] can set a forest a light. Mm. And then if you go into Proverbs and other places, you know, they say that, uh, what the mouth overflows, what the heart is, is full of it's. But anyway, I want you to talk about controlling the tongue because it's reference here in James is one of the lead the things, because remember James, we've, we've identified that he learned everything about life and leadership from watching his brother.

PSM saw, saw Jesus who had countless people, throngs of folks around him. And Jesus spoke in measured amounts. And when he spoke it was uplifting. And it said more often than not in the Bible, somewhere in the apostles, that I only speak what my father tells me. And don't you think if all of us would only really, you know, consider what we were about to say before we did, we'd do better in life.

Uh, of course we would. Yeah. Um. That's however, uh, the, I love how we, you've kind of gotten my [00:35:00] mind on this playbook, um, uh, analogy. Again, putting it all together. Paul writes this in Ephesians chapter four. He says, let all bitterness and wrath and anger. Clamor and slander be pit away from you along with all malice.

And then here's a playbook, and I love this in scripture. We always get a put off and put on, um, you know, when I was younger, people would say, the Bible is not a book of dos and don'ts. And I'm like, uh, yes it is. Um, as I've gotten to know my Bible now it's not, it's, that's not how we. Gain acceptance with God.

But the Bible gives us a playbook of how to live, how to live a life that is not only honoring to the Lord, but will bring us peace. Uh, just like if you gave your child a, um, a curfew to come in at night, you're doing that because you know nothing good's happening after. Whatever said time that you come up with, right?

Just trust me, this will lead to peace in your life. Mm-hmm. And then when you come in late, it's going to [00:36:00] lead to consequences. Right? It's just simple. It's just logic. And so Paul says, take off this, and this ties right into James, this idea of bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, slander, putting away from you, along with all malice.

It goes back to our junior high teenage years. I tear you down in order to build me up. This is the exact opposite. The tongue has so much power to do bad, but guess what else? The tongue also has a lot of power to build up, and when we put it in light, the next verse out of Paul, he says, put this off. And here he says, put on in verse 32.

Be kind to one another. Tenderhearted forgiving one another as God in Christ has forgiven you. The, the, the ability to encourage, literally to put courage into someone is so powerful. And, and James is really echoing this, um, even. When it ties into [00:37:00] conflict later in chapter four, and you, you go back to even as you're looking for wisdom and, and, and the, the playbook of how we do this is through practicing the word, not just being a hearer of it, but putting it into play, right?

Mm-hmm. And so then we get here, we can begin to practice this exercise. Yeah. Of, of taming our tongue and it starts, you know, it's interesting, the very first fundamental of taming, obviously when it's talking about tongue, it's speaking. Mm-hmm. Right. How ironic is it that the very first fundamental of taming your mouth is to do this, zip it.

Yeah. To keep it in the holster. Exactly right. It's a crazy, it's so powerful. Well, well to that, my, my pastor Kyle Jackson, who started the show with me, um, he's gonna rejoin us again in the future, some stage. Uh, I asked him about something one day and his response to me was simple. It was two words. [00:38:00] It was a tough situation.

And he said, just speak life. He goes, speak life into everything that you do. Mm-hmm. And he said, when I listen to you as an announcer. The, the manner in which you talk, it's like you're speaking life. You might not be, you know, encouraging or whatever, but it's just your tone, how it's delivered. And in every situation there's a decision to just go, well, I can go this way, which is negative and detrimental and, and break something or someone down, or I can just choose to speak life to every situation and our entire existence here in this book.

Began with God speaking life into stuff. Amen. That's so good. And, and going back to, and how can I do that? Because I now have life in him. And I love that that phrase, um, forgive others as Christ has forgiven you. And the reason that is that, that's not just when people wrong me. That idea can even go down to where James talks about, you know, [00:39:00] comparison, right?

Mm-hmm. And having special treatment toward people that are maybe more like you, right? Yeah. Um, and so I look at that and the question becomes as Stephen, who in the world do you think you are, that you can hold someone in contempt? Or that I could sit and judge someone, um, uh, based on their appearance or their.

Their status. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, you know, one of the things that I can, I can truly say, and this is a result of God working in my life. This is not to brag. Please hear me. I'm just giving a practical example. Um, if I got a phone call today to eat lunch with Dan and my culdesac. I would be just as eager to eat with him as if Scotty Scheffler called me and said, Hey, Stephen, I want to eat lunch with you today, or Will you take a phone call?

Now, I may need to prioritize for a job and things like that to figure out which relationship, you know, if they're both at the same time. But [00:40:00] I'm just as energized to talk about the book of James with Dan and my cul-de-sac. I am with Mark, or I am with Scotty Scheffler, like, and, and that is not natural.

Something has changed me, and it's not because I'm such a good guy. It's not because I possess that ability. It's because as time has gone on, I have seen, and I, by the way, and I will fail in this in other ways. I mean, I'm not saying I'm perfect in this. Mm-hmm. But because I have been forgiven. I sit across from the person that is across from me, and if they knew me in the way, I know the way I know me, if they knew the darkness of my heart, my mind, and just how lost I am outside of this relationship with the God of the universe who came in flesh and the person of Jesus because of what he has done in me, the hope and the forgiveness that he's offered me, I can now view the person sitting across from me in a much different light.

Yeah. [00:41:00] To that it was, I'm sort of jumping around. I've got two more things then I'll let you go. Appreciate your time. Um, it says in two chapter two where it's talking about love your neighbor as yourself. You reference that. And then it says, but if you show favorite, favorite, if you show favoritism, you sin and goes on to say you're convicted by the, the Jewish law.

Um. And that is a thing too, and you just, you, like, you drew the analogy of saying, well, the gentleman down the street, or Scotty Scheffler and they both wanna do lunch. It's so easy for us now to go, oh gosh, you know, let's, let's go with a big timer. But, but this is also where if you, I don't wanna use the word aware, but if you have your ducks in a row, you know, legacy, life, leadership wise, you, you, you, you.

You follow the spirit and you follow what's inside, and you do the right thing despite what we make concoct in our heads, which may be, you know, good for developing ourselves or furthering [00:42:00] our careers, or whatever the case might be. I'll give you a practical example. It's, this is not, um, in the sense of, of I've been on many mission trips going into other countries, and those are great examples of, of what we look at in terms of where people are with their status.

But lemme give you a great example. Mm-hmm. My, my son goes to a church, he and his wife go to a church in Washington, DC and it's a large, well-known church and the pastor, mark Dever at that church is really good friends with John Piper, who a lot of, yes, a lot of believers are familiar with, is a gifted preacher, writer and just a, just a great man.

My son told me this story. Um, Piper was there doing a, a sabbatical at, and, and was in DC with his, along with his wife, and he's an older man now, and who has become well known. He didn't pursue celebrity, but God, for whatever reason, as John Piper humbled himself, the Lord lifted him up in [00:43:00] due time, right?

And so now he's well known. And my son remarked to me that after a service one Sunday. While he's there on sabbatical, which probably means he wants to rest study I, well, I don't, I can't speak for him. I don't know what a sabbatical means for him. Nonetheless. He's sitting there after church, has a pocket calendar, pulls it out of his pocket, and he said there's, and, and DC is, by the way, this is so funny.

This church is right on Capitol Hill. Okay. It's, it's packed with young people because young people run DC We see all the old people on tv, but it's all the young people that are doing all the work. Yeah. And uh, and so here's all of these young people in there and John Piper, and they're all faceless, unknown people to him that are just minuscules little minions in the political world.

Right. And John Piper has his calendar out and he is just making coffee date after coffee date with the really, with, with young people that wanna meet with him. That story from my mouth of my son to me impacted me. I'm sure to where [00:44:00] now, any time I'm home and I think I deserve this time of, and we'd have to have balance in life.

I'm, I understand that, but throughout the workday, anyone that wants to meet with me. I'm gonna give them an audience because I'm not gonna show partiality. I do understand that there are, within our jobs and things like that, there are certain things that are requirements and, and prerequisites that we have to do, but outside of that, a point I want your audience to hear is that I hope that what I do is that I no longer put, would be tempted to, well, I will be tempted, but that I would not put people off.

Yeah. It is so easy to put people off. I think about our friends that play on the PGA tour. You know, they get inside their ropes. And, and I get it. There's blinders ground, there's so many demands on their time, but how big a temptation is it for 'em? And so we have to work with them to serve outside of themselves and to be intentional.

It doesn't mean that they have to look at every fan and acknowledge every time somebody says your last [00:45:00] name, right. But you know exactly what I'm saying. We can become immune to it, desensitized to it, to the world around us. And I think what. James would really have us to do is to not become desensitized toward those that are in need, those that are around us, that God, it's God who has put this person in front of me.

Well, what you say there and and keeps coming to me is that, again, James, in this instance, in this show, all of the heroes we've examined and we'll examine there, there's a character trait where it's like they are just normal people that have had. Know, leadership limelight, whatever you wanna call it, thrust upon them.

And they have a certain mindset and they're all following Jesus. And Jesus was the ultimate leader, but he was a servant. And they have that servant heart. James starts the whole thing with, um, servant of God and the Lord Jesus Christ. So, so to have, and, [00:46:00] and I've said this before in the show to leaders of business or whoever it is, coaches.

Team captains, whatever your, your, your sphere of influence is. You can, you can like boss people around and force people to follow you or people you can create an environment where people want to follow you. Mm-hmm. And what you described there, 'cause folks I can say about this man that's looking at me across the Zoom call here, when I texted him a little old me, you responded right away and you were like, oh, I'd, I, I'd be overjoyed to, to join you.

It for me it was so refreshing. So I wanna say to the leaders watching this or aspirin leaders, your manner changes people's emotions at times. If you just give them a positive or a nice or favorable response to anything. I think the, and the confidence, and this is where I find I must find my confidence in going back, because [00:47:00] sometimes life throws us for a loop.

Mm-hmm. Trials. Suffering that I must go back and if, if I'm gonna trust that God is in control of the bad times, right? And the, and the suffering, and that it actually is not, it's going to produce something in me that is, is that is actually wonderful and in my best interest. By the way, side note, mentor of mine, give this to your audience, the three greatest gifts God will ever give you.

You may not ask for them and you may not want them. I had a mentor of mine, share this with me. Three greatest gifts God will ever give you suffering, weakness, and denied abundance. And it's in those three things. In those three things, Uhhuh, right, that God will do such a can do such a work in our lives.

And now they may be difficult, we may not want to go through them, but nonetheless they produce something in us. And so when I look at the, at. The overall picture of this, of this, of this [00:48:00] book, it, it, it is just chalk filled again, like you said, uh, earlier with the playbook. But it all comes back from the fact of what he has done on our behalf.

And when you look at leadership, leadership ultimately is this, if I believe God's in control of the bad times, then I also believe that it's God who has put me where I am. So if I am in leadership. I believe it to be God ordained. Whether you acknowledge it or not, it is God ordained. So therefore there is a confidence that you can, that you can stand in that he put me here.

So therefore I don't have to defend myself. I don't have to promote myself. I don't, I can, I can now rest in that. And here's the word I was wanting, I I'm saying all this to get to this. Alright, Jesus, my, one of my favorite descriptions of him. Is the word meekness, and meekness simply means strength. Under control.

In other words, [00:49:00] the very one that John one tells us is the very expression of the Unseeable God. He now becomes the knowable touchable. He becomes God in flesh. We can know him and touch him, right? He is the, in the Greek, he is the Lagos. He is the expression, the word he. If you want to know God, know Jesus, right?

The very one that scripture would tell us even has the power to speak the world into existence. Yet because of what he was called to do and the reason that he came, he took humiliation. He took insults, he took beatings, he took torture, and he ultimately, he took death. One that could have called, in fact, this is crazy.

In the Gospel of John, when they come to arrest Jesus, Peter chops off the ear. You know the, the story right? They ask, they're looking for him and they ask, you know, where is Jesus, right? Mm-hmm. And he says, basically, I'm gonna paraphrase. I am he. Yeah. And at the [00:50:00] power of the voice that said that an entire fell over, fall over, that's one little, little, little snippet that we don't focus on a lot.

It was, it was almost like he gave a little mm, just a little flex of who he is. And so here he is being abused, beaten, all that because of his love for me and you. Right. He takes all that on. He had, he had strength. It was his creation. The very people that he loved are the ones that are rejecting him. And he had the power.

He has the power to enact revenge, but he was so secure in who he was and what he was called to do that he sat there and said, father, forgive 'em. They don't know what they're doing. They don't fully understand. And he was able to do it. So as leaders, I can sit and look and say, it is God. It is not my. It, it, it wouldn't be my abilities, my talents outside of those that God has given me.

He's put me where he is. Therefore, I don't have to be arrogant. I don't have to be, uh, demand, you know, [00:51:00] demand manful and accountability are two different things. Mm-hmm. Um, but I can be a servant leader, which is what you described. And I'll tell you this, if I were an atheist, I would look at the principles of scripture because I, I believe they work.

So much for not only for the hope beyond, but for life today. I think the good life, so to speak, that people are always looking for is found here. Now. Ultimately, its meaning comes outside of just what we do. It comes from what has been done for us. But these principles work. If I wanted to have a good marriage, I would go to the Bible where marriage was created.

Mm-hmm. And I would say, what's the playbook? On having a good marriage. If I had to, if I have children, which I do and I wanted to raise 'em, the Bible has so many verses on how to be a good father, a good mother, what do I do with my finances? The Bible speaks to that. Yeah. Now it, it's, it's, it's so, it's chalk filled with it and so it, it gives us the very words of life and it gives us the words to [00:52:00] life.

Uh, you're a wonderful servant to many people and you've shepherded so many fine young men and women. Uh, I'm so thankful for you. Um, Stephen, thanks for joining us. Uh, before I let you go, please tell the folks where they can find more about you and more about CGF and such. I'll say this, you don't wanna know anything else about me.

Okay. But I'll, that's again, to my observation, that's who you are. No, no, no, no. It's not fault. I'm dead serious. The, the, the organization I work for is called College Golf Fellowship. Mm-hmm. Dot com is is our website. And I'm telling you, uh, we have some of the most gifted, our greatest asset are our staff.

We have some of the most gifted. Relationally gifted. Uh, they can teach, um, that are great examples to me, uh, or our staff and, and go read about it. The bulk of what we do is with college golf teams and coaches. Uh, but we have a wide array of things that, that, that are out there with [00:53:00] love for, uh, anybody in your audience connect, um, with them.

By the way, a mutual friend that we have, how great is Nory stain? He's, well, he's the reason why we got you on the show. He is. Hey, how about that? You know, he's one of my favorite human beings in the world. He is a sweetheart, and, uh, I even Sabrina, his wife, who is from Kansas. It, the, her love for her husband is so unbelievable that she wears a pendant of South Africa right around her neck, and it's one of my favorite things about them as a couple, but they're almost too perfect when you see them together.

Speaking of Stephen, um, what a treat to have you on. I'm so thankful. Um, and to all you folks who downloaded this and who listened, I'm thankful for you each and every one of you. I, I pray, peace on you. If you want to reach out for guidance, whatever, please feel free. Um, comment on YouTube, search and subscribe over there at the greater call or message us.

Uh, on Instagram or on X. Again, the handles there are at the greater call. I am, mark, I [00:54:00] bless you and I challenge you to go out there and be a legend. Thanks for listening.