The Greater Call Podcast – Job | Integrity and Faith with Pastor Patrick Keim

In this episode of The Greater Call, host Mark Immelman is joined by Pastor Patrick Keim (Church of the Highlands – Auburn) for a powerful conversation on the Book of Job. Together they unpack what Job teaches us about suffering, integrity, and trusting God when life makes no sense.

From Job’s deep losses to God’s bigger perspective, this episode explores how faith can stay steady in hardship. Mark and Patrick also discuss leadership through pain, the power of being present with others, and how lament can deepen—not destroy—our relationship with God.

Key Themes

🎙️ Why the Book of Job is really about who God is in suffering
🎙️ Faithfulness and integrity when life feels unfair
🎙️ The difference between fixing people and being present with them
🎙️ Stewardship vs. ownership in leadership and life
🎙️ How lament can become a path to deeper trust
🎙️ Finding purpose and peace without always getting full answers

Memorable Quotes

“If Job teaches us anything, it’s that suffering may raise questions—but it can also reveal God more clearly.” – Patrick Keim
 “Presence is often more powerful than explanations.” – Mark Immelman
 “An identity built by me is burdened by me.” – Patrick Keim

Scripture References

• Job (primary discussion text)
• Job 27:5 — “I will maintain my integrity…”
• Romans 12:15 — “Mourn with those who mourn…”
• Ephesians 6 — The spiritual battle
• Galatians 5:22–23 — The fruit of the Spirit

 About Our Guest

Pastor Patrick Keim serves at Church of the Highlands in Auburn, Alabama. He is passionate about helping people follow Jesus with resilience, humility, and purpose—especially through life’s hardest seasons. 

🎙️ Follow Mark Immelman
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✨ Be full of joy in all things, no matter where you are. Be thankful. Go and be a legend! ✨

Transcript

Welcome to another episode. This is episode 18 of the Greater Call in. In fact, I think it's 18. They're going, coming thick and fast now, but we're so excited to have you. As always, this Greater Call podcast, its mission is to help you to learn lessons from the heroes of our faith. Lessons on living a better life, certainly becoming a better leader, and then leaving a legacy.

Um, and I'm thrilled to, to have a good friend. The, uh, campus pastor at Auburn, uh, for Church of the Highlands. Yes, Patrick. Hi. Join us, Patrick. How are you? Yes, thank you. Thank you for having me, mark. I'm excited when you said let's do a, a podcast about the Bible. I got fired up. I got so fired up. I picked arguably the most confusing book of the Bible, uh, and that is Job.

So I'll let you talk about that. But thank you for having me. This is gonna be great. You know what, last night I woke up, uh, it wasn't a fit of panic because I'm still nervous doing these, these shows. Something inside of me said, you know, Patrick is the perfect guy [00:01:00] for this. Because you played division one college basketball at Auburn.

Mm-hmm. Yes sir. I believe you guys were SEC champions, right? Yes, sir. My senior year. That's correct. Senior year point guard for the, the starting point guard. So you know about people around you. Mm-hmm. And as acas, you know the story of job. It's called people talk about the patience of job. Right? Sure.

After really diving into the story, it should more be like the, the faithfulness of job. Exactly. Yeah. I, I'm not sure, well, I guess he was patient in a way, but I, I, I go back to a quote and I wanna read this to you. Okay. I use this as kind of a teeing off spot because you and I both like playing golf. Yes, absolutely.

The heroes of our faith, and this was a definition I found online. Are figures throughout history. Mm-hmm. Demonstrated extraordinary trust and obedience to God, often in the face of immense adversity. Hmm. Yeah. And when I read through [00:02:00] Job as I wrestled with this thing, man, I'm like, when is the good news coming?

Right? Oh yeah. But throughout it all, job. Emblematic of everything this definition says. I mean, this guy had it as tough as I would argue anybody in the Bible. Yes. Yeah, he did. It's unbelievable. I mean, the story of job is one of fascination for me because first off, it's the first book we have. Of the Bible.

So though it's not in before Genesis, it is the first book we have Archeologically of Humanity. And I think it's a beautiful picture and I really wanna dive into it because may I, I do wanna, may I stop you for a second because I learned something the other day from Tara Lee Kale. Tara Lee, yeah. Of the above.

Yeah. We're trying to get her on the show. Tara, if you're watching, um, where she rightly pointed out like you just said. Because job is farther into the Old Testament. Sure. Yes. Chronologically. [00:03:00] Mm-hmm. It is right after Genesis. Exactly. Okay, then, okay, so off you go. Yeah. So I mean, just a simple Old Testament.

You have the Pentateuch, the, the, the original Hebrew cannon, the first five books of the Bible. And then you see the, uh, different types of books, whether it be poetic, uh, major profits, solely based off size, minor profits, solely based off size. Mm-hmm. Not insignificance, kind of clumped up, but if you were to make it simply chronological, uh, job would be the first.

And there's so many things to talk about. Job, if you're listening to this. And you haven't read it. Um, if you look in your table of contents, you won't see job JOBE. It'll be JOB like job. Uh, that's one thing when I started reading the Bible for my first time in college, I was like, where is Job? And like, it's the one job.

I was like, okay, got it. Job. I love it. And um, you just see this story of a man that has immense success and you honestly see in the first three chapters. God laying out, and we'll get into this some very specific clear theological things before we step [00:04:00] into what really everyone reads the Book of Job about wanting to know the answer of why is there suffering?

Yeah. Why do these things happen? Mm-hmm. I think if I was to, to summarize one of the biggest questions I get from people that are wrestling with their faith, it be summarizing the question of why do bad things happen to good people? And I think a lot of us go to the book of Job. To find that answer. And I think as we seek that answer, we actually come to a conclusion that doesn't answer that question, but answers a different question.

Mm-hmm. That's even more important that I think our soul and our spirit actually want more of an answer for. And so, uh, I'm really excited to dive in this book. It fires me up and so, uh, I'll let you take it away, but I could go all day on this one. Well, I'm glad because again, when I read this folks and I've glossed, you know, the show, if nothing else.

And this is my hope for the show is to, you know, introduce you to these heroes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. More than anything to learn about them. Because [00:05:00] every single one of these guys seem like there should be a movie. I mean, yeah. Stuff that's unfathomable. Anyhow, so when I get into reading it and it's lot, there's lots of chapters, there's, you know, I'm gonna get it wrong, but over 30 chapters, I believe it's Yes, absolutely.

Yes, for sure. A lot of it is job getting lectured by his buddies. Okay. Yes, yes. Which is, there's a lesson in that too, which we'll get to. Yes. But you're right. I kind of really wrestled with it because you are waiting for the good news at the end of it. Mm-hmm. News is not what your mind wants, but news is what you need.

Exactly. Summarizing that correctly. Oh, absolutely. I think that's exactly what, what we'll see in this story as we break it down is. We're all wrestling. Mm-hmm. And there's a beauty in the wrestle, and we're gonna talk about the wrestle. And I think, um, when you start following Christ, you could almost have shame that you ha you don't have this blind faith.

Mm-hmm. [00:06:00] That I think we all experience this moment when you are starting to wanna follow Jesus. And we create this idea of religion, that religion is. Me denying every thought in my life and just moving forward and just following this book and never asking questions, never seeking answers, never talking with people about it.

And culturally, I don't think pastors ever do this or churches ever do this. I know the church I'm at, we're, we're very open on Come bring your Questions at Church the Highlands. But I think we can feel it internally that we create this misnomer of. I'm not allowed to ask. I'm just supposed to submit. I'm just supposed to listen.

Mm-hmm. And Job doesn't do that. And I think he does it in a way that I think there's, we get to walk through some of his own personal, maybe inaccuracies in his theology, so to speak, but at a deeper core, the win of Job is a man that was unwilling to stop wrestling. And [00:07:00] here's the key point away from God.

I think it's very easy for us to wrestle, but isolate our wrestle by ourselves alone. The world calls it deconstruction to deconstruct our thoughts, but we do this outside of our relationship with. Healthy friendships and healthy, uh, uh, a healthy God. And we do it on ourselves. Yeah. And, uh, job takes a, a completely different approach about it, and I think that's why this is the first book we get is because we get to see a beautiful, authentic wrestle with God.

And so, uh, I, I just wrote some simple things down about just kind of this big idea of Joe. And that is we start out with this question of why do the righteous suffer? Mm-hmm. When I do good, when I prepare, well, when I, I remember doing this, man, I would, I put all the hours in of, of preparing for a basketball game and then play terrible, and I would immediately sit down and be like.

What did I do wrong? Like why did [00:08:00] it not create like God? Why? Like is there something I'm missing? And all of a sudden we create this, which we'll get into as well, this reduction theory of like, well, one plus one ha ha has to equal two. And that's not the case at all. Like that's not. What we're gonna see in this story is his friends have that mindset.

Well, you must have done something wrong. And he is like, I don't think I did. And so you see these first three chapters where this man is kind of like at a place where he is wrestling with, um, his friends and his friend's, like, you sinned, you did all these things wrong. But the Bible very clearly says he's a righteous man.

Yeah. Like, he, like what happens? Doesn't happen because he did anything wrong. And I think sometimes we need that freedom and that grace to see the outcomes of my life aren't solely defined because of my performance. Yeah. And I think that needs to free up. Somebody that's listening is like, we can do that.

Where it's like. Man, I didn't play this well, I didn't leave this meeting well, and [00:09:00] it's, oh, you're a bad person and you did the wrong thing. Now there's maybe things we can change and grow and learn from, but at a core we can't create that. And so, so we start this question of why does righteous suffer?

But it quickly becomes the a, a bigger question that we need to answer. And that is, who is God in the middle of my suffering? Yes, it starts as. Check this out. And this is what I've learned in my own suffering. Whenever I'm suffering, it becomes introspective. My focus is me. Mm-hmm. Suffering creates selfishness.

We want an answer for me. And what we'll see on the story of Job is as he suffering, he starts going, why me? Why me? Why me? And he ends by saying, oh, I knew of you, but now I've experienced you. So his mind goes from him. To God and in the middle of, that's where he finds his freedom. And so Job goes on this [00:10:00] cool story of why do bad things happen to good people, frustrated, angry, to feeling the love of God and the passion of God and the power of God.

And we get to see that journey, which is a really cool journey to go on. You've just delivered us the perfect social media clip. Thank you very much, pastor. That was, I could, I could also stop the podcast right now, but I'm not gonna because the story. Again, like I wanna, I, I say I, I wrestled with us. Uh, it, it, it was long and it was just the same refrain of all of these people, these four guys, elephant, bda, ZFA, and then eventually Elihu.

Yeah. I dunno what the correct pronunciation is. Perfect. And, and I'm like enough already, but there's a lesson in that. But first, for the folks who dunno, job, uh, should be the second book in the Bible. Um, I'm glad you referenced that because. Job was a, you talk about a righteous man. He was wealthy, richest guy around.

Yeah. Um, very familial. Had a big [00:11:00] family. Um, and he was basically just a good representative of God. Yeah. So much so now he is where the wicked movie line comes in. Right. That now Satan's been cast outta heaven. Mm-hmm. Because it's early in the Bible. Sure. And Satan goes to God. Goes, Hey, uh, big guy, here's a bet your boy job down there.

Uh, let me have Adam A. Little bit and I'm prove to you that he's not as faithful as what you say is right. Right? And I'm like, huh. And then God's like, have at it. Big guy. Let's go. Yeah. And so job is struck with loss of family, loss of possessions, loss of everything. And then he gets sick. Top of all of this with sores all over his body.

Yep. In show up, he's buddies. Mm-hmm. And he's, they're buddies. And this is, there he is the first lesson in it. They just sit with him for a bit and they don't say a word. They're commiserate. They, they're just [00:12:00] commiserate. And they, they're there, they're showing some empathy, but then the first one can't resist.

He like, to your point, dude, you must have done something wrong. Okay. Then, and they keep going and Job just suffers them and humors them and doesn't say anything, and then his next bud comes along and it's the same story eventually after the third one job's, like, okay, then he starts to feel sorry for himself.

Yeah. First time. And he starts to question God and God's absent doesn't answer. God's holding true to the bet with Satan. Right? Yeah. Which is crazy if you think about it. Then at the end of it all, then his next friend, the last one comes along and then he's, it's the same refrain where it's like, well, you must have sinned and get me, if I'm, forgive me if I'm getting the chron, the chronology of this wrong.

Um, and then he has this sort of raw, messy prayer with God. Hmm. Like, what's going on? Yeah. And then the whole thing ends with God to your point saying, [00:13:00] um, yo, you're thinking about you. Have you considered me? Yeah. My ways are higher than your ways. You ask him, who put the stars in the sky? Who created this, who did that?

And job's like, well, not me, you. And that was sort of the end of the story where God comes to this incredible rev revelation of It's not about him. Yeah. About God's great. Yep. Did I do that right? That was the perfect chronological of the story. I think anyone now could pick it up. Uh, the beauty of it is, is it is poetic and that can be where it gets difficult.

And I think what you just laid out. It is perfect. I love the fact that even God's response to Job, and we'll talk about this in a moment, he was like, surely you were there when I created all this. Like you were there, right? Like, we see that God is a, a God of humor, right? He's like, surely you were here when I created this land.

And he's like, sure. And then Job's like, okay, all right. I, I, I understand what you're trying to say, but it's this beautiful love that he has and I think. Um, it's easy if, if [00:14:00] we, if you would allow me to take five minutes, it's easy to jump into the, the interactions with the friends, but I think it's very important for anyone that's reading it to really sit in the first three chapters because there's some theological things of suffering in there that are so profound that we must take a moment and see.

And the first would be that you said it, job lost family. He lost his money, he lost his, his farm animals, he lost and then he got sick. The first thing that I think is so true, and that is the, the writer of job is showing us that suffering is layered. Never just happens all at one time. It's, it's, it's blow after blow, week after week, year after year, where the confidence is lost.

It's never just one game. It's never just one meeting. It's never just one thing. And I think anyone listening knows exactly what I'm talking about. What's it have, have you heard that cliche that goes bad things happen in freeze or something to that sort of [00:15:00] Exactly. Yeah, it's, yeah, exactly. They were just this ano it.

Joe didn't just have one day, it was. Moment after moment, and this is what, this is, what happens is when, when we are in a fight. Yes. Well, yeah. Here's the thing too. You just jog my memory. Um, where God permits Satan to torment Joe. Yes. Satan just starts with a soft, a soft ball, if you will. Yep. Then that doesn't do it.

Job's still faithful. Then he comes with something a little bigger. And so you're right. It just, it just kept on, layering is a beautiful word. Yeah. And this is a bad analogy, and my wife may hate me for this, but, um, watching my wife go through delivery 20 months ago mm-hmm. It, it's not like the baby just showed up and it was a painful delivery.

No, it was a painful 24 hours. You know, it's every, what, four minutes. All in the minute there's a contraction and I'm sitting here watching it and I'm just getting this revelation of, this is what life feels like. It's just. We get defeated when we don't see the end of suffering, when will this end? And I think that's what [00:16:00] happens is we can handle the first one and the second one.

But it's when our confidence, faith, confidence is shattered and we don't see the end eternity end and we get focused on today is the end. Where we lose, we lose that heart. So this first thing you see is this idea that suffering is layered. And you also see this real kind of cool thing, and that is faith.

And he hits this really hard, is faith isn't denial. Like job isn't just like, oh, everything's fine. You know what I mean? I lost my entire family. I've, you know, all, no, he's faith is not denial. And I think that's to encourage someone, you can be full of doubt and full of faith at the same time. And I think when I felt permission to have those at the same time is when actually my faith grew because I felt like faith would just like eliminate every dark emotion that I was going through.

Anxiety, stress, pain, but not realizing, no, it [00:17:00] actually does best in the middle of that and will slowly. Brick by brick, and you see it in the story of job, uh, take over and, and remind us of what is important. But then the, you know, uh, the, and then the two things that we have to see that's so important of the interaction between God and Satan mm-hmm.

Is first who's in charge. Before we get into the struggle of why do bad things happen to good people. An anchor in the middle of that has to be God is on the throne. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And God has the ultimate authority. Yeah. God has the authority over evil, but the enemy is the author of evil. So he, he writes it and he creates it.

But God, at the end of the day, I think Terry Lee Cobble says it this way, uh, Satan's on a leash. Yeah. And I think that's always good for someone in the middle of suffering to feel like, Hey, this has an end. This is not an eternal suffering, uh, because of who [00:18:00] God is and what Christ has done for us. We can read and go through suffering, not knowing that suffering is not the finish line.

There is gonna be the other side of it, redemption healing. But then the second one I, something that for everyone to, to consider is I, the word adversary is used when talking about Satan. Mm-hmm. An adversary is someone that's rivaling. Going back and forth, and though God has the authority, we see Satan trying to find ways into this story of job.

Mm-hmm. And that's happening for all of us. There is a rival, the Bible says that the battle is not flesh and blood, but it's against rulers and principalities, Ephesians. Right. And so we need to understand this going into suffering, that there is a war going on for you. For me. Mm-hmm. And God loves us enough to know that that war is settled by the cross, but the enemy's not just sitting back going, oh, the cross happened.

No, he has a, his time is time's on our [00:19:00] side. Yeah. Right. And time is against him. So he's gonna use the time on earth to say, well, what if I could throw this problem at 'em? What can I do this? And so you see this adversary battle, but at the end of the day, we know the answer. We know who has the authority, but we do need to know that there is.

A battle for your mind. And that's why the world is throwing all these things at us, the battle of anxiety, social media, trying to make us compare, trying to do all these things and we need to not be afraid of it, but knowing we have the power over it because of Jesus, but still need to know that that battle's gonna happen.

It's, gosh, I hope you get to preach this sermon one day at Church of the Highlands for it because it's, you're bringing so much truth to this incredible story. Yeah. And, and, and at the risk of, you know, being outta line, but I, I wanna add a few things to what you said. Go for it. Yeah. Um, first off, about the person.

Mm-hmm. Um, just, just being the upright person. There, there are a couple things that [00:20:00] jumped out to me about job, and I wanna pitch 'em at you and get your, your, just your Yeah. Your, your spirit responding. Okay. Um, first off, there is. Value in listening and not speaking. Yeah. If you're around somebody who's struggling.

Mm. And, and, and here's my mere culper, right. I'm a fixer. I'm a golf instructor by design. It's in my DNA. So you know, when someone comes to me, it's a problem. And you fix. And there's oftentimes my wife Tracy just says to me, she goes, I just need you to listen right now. Yeah. You don't have to fix. Great.

And people, and for dads and husbands and wives and business leaders and stuff. Mm-hmm. It's, it's not always something to be fixed. Right. Sometimes there's, the empathy is a person who really listens, not sort of just like, acts like you're listening, but, but really listening. Great. And job's friends were that, but then they weren't that.

Hmm. The more they weren't, that the more Joe [00:21:00] began to question himself. Are you getting where I'm going here? Oh, absolutely. I think, I mean, we could camp here for a long time and I'm glad we're getting here to the second part of the our relationships. Mm-hmm. Because they're key. Yeah. And they're so important.

And I think what one of the biggest things we learned from this story, well, first off, when you read it, if you're not careful reading it the first time, not knowing the context we're laying out, you can almost be like they're kind of right. Yeah. And yes, that's the problem is just because you're right in one area doesn't mean it's the right way of delivering it.

Yeah. And it could even be bad theology. And bad timing always leads to spiritual harm, you know? And so, uh, I've, one of my dear mentors who I look up to on our team here is Pastor Dino and, uh, Dino, uh, Rizzo. He, uh. He had a, I went up to him and I was like, Hey, I'm going through something, uh, a member of our church that I, you know, I'm too young.

I don't know. I don't know what it's like to have grandkids and what they're going [00:22:00] through and the situation that it was. And he looked at me and goes, Jesus said the greatest pastoral care line of all time. And that is you. You mourn with those who mourn. You rejoice with those who rejoice. It doesn't mean you preach to those that are mourning, and it doesn't mean you humble.

Those are rejoicing. You match. What's happening in their life. And Jesus explains something, not matching an ideology or in a theology, but matching the environment of your hurting. And I'm gonna sit with you in the hurt, and I will allow God to speak when it's time. And Warren Weby says it this way as well as guys like Eugene Peterson.

And that is our world has lost. The superpower of presence, just being present with people. Mm-hmm. The amount of times I'll have people come up to me, um, and I've met them in a hospital and no one has ever [00:23:00] come up to me after me going to see 'em in the hospital and go, man, what you said was awesome. You know what they say?

I'll never forget that you were there. Yes, exactly. And I think a lot of the times we have job. Friends, people going through a job experience questioning God. Mm-hmm. And we, we now get hesitant because we don't know what to say. And I think that's the enemy's way of keeping us from being present with them.

Yeah. Instead of sitting, and you might not even say a word, but the presence that you're there means more than anything. And I, I, I want to build on that. Yeah. Um, 'cause it's one thing being there, but it's another thing being there. Exactly. Mm-hmm. And, and. And this thing. Oh yeah. And for the audio listeners, I just held up my cell phone, which is wallpaper is the Armor of God.

Yeah. Um, uh, where leaders, whatever you might be with [00:24:00] your subordinate or your child or whatever, but you're on your telephone. Hmm. And that's not really present. You're just there. Right. It's great. I would, I would, yeah. I think biblical language for that is, um, it's not about your body being there, but it's about your fruit being there.

Oh, is your love there is your joy there is your peace there. So we don't, we don't help. The Bible says that the spirit of God is what leads people to repentance. Mm-hmm. Well, we're not God, so we can't change people, but what we can do is make sure that the fruits of the spirit are in our lives. Ah. Does that make sense?

You're hitting me with some, uh, with some errors here, my friend. And so I've just learned that of just like the times I'm going in there and I may know what the right thing to say is, but I don't have the fruit of God in my life and I've missed it. 'cause we don't wanna be right. We wanna be fruitful. And so, um, so just walking in a room and just making sure I I, in my [00:25:00] head I'll be thinking about how much I love them.

About what we do in those moments. Like, oh, what do I need to say? Or How do I need to come back? They'll be talking to me and I'll just feel like the presence of God hit me and just say, just like, notice things you love about them. I love, they called me like, that's such an honor. You know what I mean? Not like, Ooh, he said this.

We gotta change this. We gotta tweak this because that's what they're feeling and we need to settle them by the fruits of God. Be peaceful and be of sound mind. Be gentle. All of these things are so important and people will, uh, use one Peter three where it says, give an answer on every account for what you believe, and just stop saying, I have to have an answer, comma.

With gentleness and patience, meaning the fruit is just as important as the answer. And we need both. And we see, and this is something I haven't even thought about till we talked about it. I may, may, may. I just in the interest of understanding you just interrupt real fast for, for the folks who aren't familiar with what the fruits of the spirit are.

Yeah, I'm, I'm gonna try this. Love, joy, peace, patience, [00:26:00] kindness, goodness. Gentleness and self-control. Yeah. There you go. Perfect. Bingo. Crushed it. Yeah. I've got, there's a great series. I've got my kids', uh, song in my head. Yeah. We did a series our whole fall semester at Church of the Highlands. Pastor Mark took us through those.

Mm-hmm. And if you want great videos for that, they're, they're on Church of the Highlands website. They're great. It's a great message series and it's a great reminder no matter how many times you hear it, it's beautiful to hear, this is what I can carry everywhere I go and experience everywhere I go. Um, but I don't know if you've thought of this.

They were quiet when they didn't know the problem, but the more they got to know job, the more they had things to say. How real was that? Then they puffed up. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, like it's easy to sit by your wife when it's year one or two. But now you've been 10 years and now you have a little bit more ammo to say.

Yeah. You know, and I think it's, that's very true for a lot of us. It's like first week on the team, first year on the team, first time in that [00:27:00] relationship, the honeymoon phase. We can be the quiet friend. Yeah. But it's way more difficult when we've seen that friend or that spouse or that coworker operate.

And now we've, we've created a storage system of advice. We have to remind presence matters being present more than anything. And, um, this can be very true, uh, for all of us. Something, even when I was studying, I was like, man, I need to be reminded that they just need, they need someone to hear them and see them.

Um, as, as we'll say at Highlands, we want people to feel needed and known. We want 'em to feel known, not just like they're a problem. And I think when the mask comes off is when people realize they're not the only one. And I think Job would've felt completely different if he knew so far. Billy Ad all of his friends were like, man, I'm sorry.

Yeah. Instead he's now having an argument with his guys. He's arguing with God. That's a lot of [00:28:00] arguing and that's exhausting Uhhuh. Um, well now I see the patience. Um, yes. So that's the power of presence and listening is better than speaking. Or that, that's not just a leadership lesson, that's a life lesson that always says to me, God gave you two ears and one mouth.

Amen. Figure out, amen. The equation. Amen. I think, uh, who was it? Pastor Mark May have said it. He said, um, explanations never heal a broken heart. Oh. And when hearts are broken, they need people to, to care for 'em. Mm-hmm. Not. Explanation, which is where the story started. We wanted an explanation of why are we suffering, why are bad things happening?

But even if they got the answer, I don't think it would've healed their heart. And that's why we serve a good God, is because he knows the real answer we need, which is more understanding of him. You know what? I'm looking at you and I'm, I, I'm drinking in everything you're saying. And then I'm looking at my clock [00:29:00] here in Church of the Highlands as a strict 45 minute policy.

And I got a lot to get through here, so we may have to do job too. Yeah, we'll keep rolling. We'll roll as long as you want. Right. Here's the thing too. Um. I kept on getting this message 'cause I was trying to put a pin on this because I was reading the book. I was listening to it when I was traveling on audio books.

I was listening to commentaries like Tara Lee and stuff like that. Yeah. Um, and, and, and it came upon me that integrity as a person and a leader, it's, it's priceless. And Job 27 5 goes, this is job till I die. I will not put away my integrity, my integrity from me. Hmm. So yeah, through it all job, despite what we eventually questioning God, um, battling with his friends who were criticizing him, he's like, through this all, I'm not gonna give up my uprightness Wow.

My value. Hmm. And [00:30:00] don't you feel like nowadays for anyone in positions of authority, certainly, and even. Friends, whatever the case might be, it's easy to give up. Your values to fit in or to, I I just, just insert whatever situation over there. Yeah. Well he has a resolute dude that had weakness Yes. But wasn't gonna give up what he's internal North Star was.

It's beautiful. Um, a, a language we'll use is, there's no output that should ever. Compromise our outcome. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Meaning there's no number, there's no win. There's nothing that should ever change the outcome of my soul. Uh, what is, as Jesus says, what is a prophet or what is a man that gains the whole world output Yeah.

But loses their soul outcome. And, um, what a tough place to be in because we get to see the fruit of power. We get to see what [00:31:00] money can do and we can see these things on a short clip, social media post. Um, but outputs is what is glorified in our world, but we don't see the outcomes of 'em. And that is a tough place to be in.

And that's what Job carried was, which I'll see this often is when in the middle of suffering job's lament. Didn't compromise his identity like he was lamenting, but he was able to lament and still be like, no, I'm a child of God. I'm loved by my God. What will happen is as we start to lament, we'll start to go, am I loved by God?

Yeah. Did he fearfully and wonderfully make me? Yeah, and our lament will create an insecurity that we have to be careful of. That job is a hero of is. He showed us this roadmap of, [00:32:00] he didn't say everything right. And a lot of his comebacks to his friends was out of anger in spite. And, you know, he did get to a place where he was like, maybe, maybe I did do something wrong.

And then he is like, no, no, I didn't. He was human. I mean he was human through this all. Yeah. Yeah. And every, every hero of the faith isn't superhuman. They are just human relying on superhuman power, which is God. And was really cool to see. Yeah, he's sitting there and he is like, wait, no, God said I am fully righteous and none of this has to do.

Going back to, we have to know the anchor of chapters one and three. Mm-hmm. Oh, no, no. There is nothing. Even as his friends have almost convinced him, wait, it's like he almost is convinced he did something wrong, and then immediately he's like, wait, I didn't do anything wrong. What I did do wrong is I lost sight of God and I put all my sight on self.

He mented saying, my integrity, I will not compromise because of the suffering I'm going through, but I do need to be humbled in not you're a bad person. That's not humility. [00:33:00] What's the phrase of humility? Humility is not thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less. Yes. Like just. The, the third option of thought is you, the first option is God, and then the second is the people around you, your family and influence and then you.

That's true humility and that's what he did lose in his time was I've lost everything and I do not, and anyone listening, I do not wanna scrub over the fact that yes, God redeemed and brought back wealth, but he lost family. Like those are people he will never get back. Mm-hmm. And suffering. There is some permanency.

On earth of suffering that we'll always have to live with. And an answer won't fix that, but a true worship, going back to the question of it's not about why do righteous suffer, but who is God to us in the middle of suffering? That is the boat that will get us from shore to shore. Yeah. We can keep our eyes on him.

And that's the integrity he had. Even though it got shaky there for a little bit, he still got to a [00:34:00] place where he was like, no, no, no. I know everything I was given was not because of me, it was because of God. So I'm gonna go to him for an answer, not run from him. I mentioned that at the beginning.

Deconstruction. Mm-hmm. And, and, and what I fear is that we will use Hear deconstructionism, which if you're hearing this and you don't know what that means, essentially people going, well, I don't know what I believe, so I'm gonna essentially get by myself, get on the internet dangerous, and just start trying to figure out what I believe.

Yeah, AI is wrong. People sometimes, right? Ai, yeah. Strawberry is a new trend, I guess. Um, uh, and um. And that is going to technology for an answer instead of God. Yeah. And the found, lemme put it this way, um, the fundamental of de deconstruction is human, but the practice that our world is going about is flawed.

Yeah. Is we should be going to God with it. And that's what made. Job. So Integris is that he was [00:35:00] flawed, but it was always in the presence of God and it was always with him. And that's where as a man, I like love job. 'cause I'm like, I want that level of honesty. Well, you, you, you emblematic of it the way you're sharing it.

And, and, and, and I, I love you talk about the humility because one of the leadership things I've sort of picked up out of it is he as a man with fabulous wealth, you know? Mm-hmm. Incredible livestock. Um, but there was the stewardship over ownership, sort of a mindset he had. Yeah. It's like, um, the riches were a gift from God rather than something he achieved, which is easy for us.

Ego-driven people who build stuff and play on great teams and achieve, and have a following or have, you know, we are a leader of an organization. But I feel like that mindset that he had that like, it's not mine, it's God's mm-hmm. Who's given it to me. It helps with the humility that you reference. Yes. He lost everything.

He was still, you know, humble in the presence of God, [00:36:00] and, and that's a real leadership thing to me because I always say on the show, there's a difference between a bus and a leader. Hmm. A bus tells you where you need to be going. It's great. Leader shows you where That's great kind deal. Yeah, it's great.

And you hit two words that are, are so key. Ownership verse stewardship. Mm-hmm. And the kingdom for not careful. Ownership creates responsibility. Stewardship creates opportunity. Yeah. So if I'm given x. I'm stewarding it now. I look at it in excitement and zeal. I get to take care of these people. I get to lead these people.

What an opportunity. 'cause I'm stewarding it, right? Ownership says No, I'm now God to this situation. Little G God, of course. Yeah. And wait man was never meant to carry. And when we carry that weight, we get exhausted. Uh, coach Pearl, uh, would always say this. He would give us a play at the end of the game.

Yeah. [00:37:00] And, uh, let's just be honest, early on when we didn't have a winning culture, uh, that play was run. I don't wanna put a percentage on it, but it was low. Okay. It was, it was, you know, 20% of the time, do we run the play the way we did? Mm-hmm. It would be a player trying to take their matters in their own hands.

Okay. And he uses this line, and I, I'll tie it into what we're saying. He would say, if you run the play correctly and we don't win, whose fault is it mine? But if we run the play incorrectly and we lose, whose fault is it? It's yours. And I think. When he would say that we would feel the weight of now the entire organization, the entire university is on my shoulders and, and in our 2026 world, the big bad, it's all on me.

Put the team on my back. Yeah. Seems noble. But we were never designed to carry that weight. And he would create opportunities for option routes and things to do and you know, let us play off ball screens, [00:38:00] et cetera. But what he was speaking to is actually very spiritual. And that is when we run it God's way.

And it doesn't work. We now don't have to carry the weight of the loss. Yeah, right. And Job did that is he carried it righteously in a way where what would've ruined somebody only strengthened him in the long run. And I always think of that. I always have Bruce Pearl's ear, you know, voice in my ear of Pat.

You run it your own way. Now all the weight's on you. I'll, I'll teach our college students this. An identity built by me is burdened by me, so if I build my identity now, I'm, I'm burdened to sustain it. Yeah. I'll use the joke of, I love being the class clown. Growing up in high school, but I loved it so much.

I started to hate it because now every time I walked into a room, now I had to think of something funny to say and that was exhausting. 'cause it wasn't funny at that point. Now [00:39:00] everybody's like, you're just trying too hard. Right. Why is because I created my own identity. Mm-hmm. Now I have to sustain it.

Yeah. And that's what wears people down. That's what only God can do is build us, not we build ourselves. I've got so much on my heart here, and I I, if this is you and you're watching or listening, um, I to a certain extent, you know, feel that, felt that here in years when suddenly I was thrust into the limelight on the golf crew that I'm on this announced crew.

Mm. You turn to the wrong things. Yeah. Like I found myself at the end of broadcast going straight to dinner and straight to glasses of wine kind of thing. Yeah. And, and, and then when I had a, a moment with God, I, it was like, okay, hmm. This, this, this is why you're in this situation. There's easy out and, and I gotta admit that I feel free.

Free is the word. I feel less burdened to your, that's correct. To your [00:40:00] observation. That's great. The, um, there's a book called Practicing the Presence of God, um, that has been one of my favorite books the past couple months. He says something profound and simple, and it was, if, if, if there's anything I'm doing that isn't motivated by the love of God, it'll be a waste of time.

And there are so many things, even though it's about God or around God without his love being the motivator, the driver, the fuel. Mm-hmm. It will tear me down. It will wear me out. It'll exhaust me. And if I'm going to other things, if there's any sort of motive, a, a hand clap, a smile, a good job, if those become my motives, it, there's no, there's no substance in it.

Gosh, and Job lost that a little bit. He lost a little bit of why am I doing what I'm doing? And this story is a reminder of when God speaks at the end, he goes, I know I'm doing this again. And it was in that moment, he was [00:41:00] restored not with understanding. Experience. I see why job was put on your heart and you reached out to me with a story.

'cause you're talking straight to me. Okay. Right. Well, well there was lots, but we might have to do job too. But I, I, I wanna pitch this one at you and then we can wrap. Great. Um, there, there, there, there are various things, you know, wisdom. Yes. Experience. But, but to me, I, I'll lump them into the category of maturity.

Mm. And you know, if you're really growing and you've got this growth mindset, you, you are really just growing toward maturity where you say the right thing at the right time, or you're quiet at the right time, or you lead at the right time, or you follow it. You know that, that's maturity to me. And here recently on the show with Steven Bunn.

Bunn, yes. Yeah. I love him. Birmingham, man. Yeah. Huh. Um, we did James. The podcast name was Brotherly Advice and I was seeing so much of myself in there because, you know, Jesus is the star and James is the brother. He, he gets a book in the Bible. Yeah, he kicks off [00:42:00] his book 'cause he is got so many pages to get his message across.

And the first verse is like, considerate, pure joy, my friends, that when you face trials of many kinds that, uh, take heart because trails breed perseverance and perseverance when it's fulfilled brings maturity about, mm. Here I'm looking at Job and I'm seeing that maturity was really bred in all these trials that he went through.

Mm-hmm. So eventually he gets to the place where God answers his prayer, not the way he was wanting to, but it's like then he had the maturity and the wisdom to go through it all. I'm just me. Job and your God. And, and when he came to this realization, then the redemption began to take place. Absolutely. I think that is, um.

It's what we all need in every area of our life is a revelation of more of God. And, you know, we're, we're firm believers that Highlands, you know, [00:43:00] will say, you know, it's okay to not be okay. But it's not, you know, it's not okay to stay there and from, you know, that's part, that's a golf podcast I'm gonna do.

It's okay not to be okay. Yeah, it's okay. You know, it's okay. You know, I, I, I feel for my golfers and my baseball players 'cause y'all, you know, hall of Fame is based off winning you healthy, healthy relationship with 5%. Me, you know, 5% in basketball ain't gonna get you in the hall of Fame, you know? Uh, but if you win 5% of tournaments, that's unbelievable.

That's unmatched. But anyway, my point is. You know, since the beginning, I think it's important for all of us to see we're gonna have these hiccups in these roads and it's, it's certainty that robs us from experiencing him. Why? Why did this happen? I need to know the answer. And I hate to say this 'cause this sounds such a pastor preacher thing, but I mean this for my own self.

I have to be okay with the mystery of the gospel. [00:44:00] I have to be okay with the mystery of the Bible. Mm-hmm. I have to be okay with some things that I may never know. That doesn't give me permission to not investigate and to steward, but that humility and maturity of the word you used to be able to absorb what I need to absorb, but then also trust when I need to.

Trust is so key. And only the Holy Spirit can prompt us in that way. And having friends that can sit by us and ask us questions, not tell us, but ask us questions to get us to talk, to get us to reveal our own heart. You know, I'm a firm believer in small groups. It's what our church has built off of since Pastor Chris started it, and I'm a firm believer that the greatest relationships are the ones that ask you questions.

Um, I'll tell you this story. Uh, I went through the, the small group that changed my life was a small group called Freedom Group. Okay. And I did think I said this earlier, but I didn't pick job because I [00:45:00] feel like I'm job. Let's be very clear, like this is an I've lost more than you, uh, mark situation. Um, but I joined this freedom group and it was all military men and I'm a freshman in college.

Okay? Okay. And they're going around the room talking about real world combat things that happened that have lost them to feel shame like they're murders. Some feel anger and hate towards the enemy. All of these things and it gets to me and I'm like, my girlfriend won't Snapchat me back. You know what I mean?

Like it's this moment I missed a free throw in had counted. Yeah. Right. Like I missed, you know, I missed more free throws at practice than I thought, you know, woe is me, you know, a joke moment. And I just had friends that asked me questions. Mm-hmm. And it was in those questions that I started to talk and as I heard myself talk, God revealed himself to me.

And that's a little bit what happened to Job. Yeah. It's though the way his friends went about it. Wasn't great. He kept talking and I think someone does need to hear this. There are some things that are in your life that you haven't talked about in a while. [00:46:00] There are some things that you haven't processed in a while and it has less to do with.

Getting the right answer, but has more to do with what scripture says. The overflow of the heart is what the mouth speaks. And if we can speak it, all of a sudden our ears hear it and realize, okay, I'm actually not okay right now. Mm-hmm. And I need help. I need friendships. I need things. And that's when I think God reveals himself is we get vocal.

This is my last tangent, and forgive me for my, my side notes here, mark. But this book was spoken before it was ever written. So you look at most of the books of the Bible and the people that were in it did not get to read this while it was happening. You think of the New Testament, right? The Book of Galatians, the first book written in the New Testament happened like 13 to 14 years after the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, right?

And then even at that point, the Book of Galatians wasn't publicized for the whole world to [00:47:00] read on their phone, right? So Christians di, some Christians may have never read scripture. New Testament scripture. Right. So it was spoken and I would just argue that our world has lost the practice of speaking and being open and talking in public settings with friends, what they're going through.

That is where I think the Christian faith at a core has superpowers. And I think, um, uh, job is an example of that, though. It wasn't in a healthy circle, small group. Mm-hmm. It still had the power of. Here's what I'm going through here. I'm gonna talk about it and I'm gonna let God use it. Okay? Um, I would be remiss if I avoided the spirit within.

It's gonna ask you to pray just in just a second. 'cause ordinarily we don't. But before I go there, I do wanna say this, given what you said, it takes something in front of your peers to admit vulnerability. Yeah. Okay. [00:48:00] And a lot of us, to your point, are hiding this stuff. In the interest of being embarrassed, where I guess with job, where this guy's thread bear eventually.

Mm-hmm. Where he, he had the interactions with his friends, which Right. But they were more lecturing him and he was reacting in anger kind of deal. Mm-hmm. But there was also this place where he was like so low, he just went to garden. It wasn't one of these like. Pastoral sort of, uh, prayers that everything's in line.

He was like, why? What on earth is going on here? You know, where are you? These sorts of things. And there was a reality to that, that to me, speaks of a real relationship with your creator. Hmm. Opposed to just going there on a Sunday morning and, you know, pray, pray, pray. And then you often you're doing your own thing.

Are, are you getting where I am here? Oh, absolutely. It's, it's the authenticity. Yes. And, um, it's, it's, when. Uh, as, uh, my [00:49:00] church is always taught, um, God, God can't, uh, speak to the fake you. He didn't make that. He wants to speak to the real you. It's Reverend, you know what I mean? We made that and we want him to speak to the one we made, but he wants to speak to the one he made.

And so when we can be us, and just when I say us, when we can process what's going on in here. Out loud, not thinking that this is gospel. He's gospel. He's, that's what Job had is though He was feeling it. They weren't his truth. Yeah, God was truth, but he was putting what he was feeling to God saying, God, we help me with this.

And that interaction, that authenticity, is what I think all of us can always grow in. And so four things I'll say, uh, because I need to hit my prompt of the book of job. All right. Four takeaways that are my heart is your plan or your pain. Sorry. Your pain isn't proof that God is absent. So when you're going through pain, job didn't [00:50:00] think God was absent, he still knew he was there.

Mm-hmm. Which is great. We need to be reminded of that, right? That lamenting talking about what you're going through is biblical and there's power in being in grieving Right. In the Bible called Lamentations. For those of you don't, there's a whole book. Yeah. Right. And so, and then I would say the last two would be, be Careful with Certainty.

Um, and, and what and why someone else is suffering. Mm-hmm. Let's not be the people that go, I know why they're going through that. Instead, being, being present and saying, I'm gonna be here with them as they learn more about God. And then the last one would be, um, don't expect a God answer in an explanation.

Expect him to re reveal himself. Or reveal himself. It may be an explanation, it may be peace, it may be joy, it may be love, and that's what's needed. And so thank you for letting me be on. Well, I, I wrote it down like this summary, God's ways are higher than our wears. Yeah. Gave job a crash course in perspective in the end.[00:51:00] 

Amen. Exactly. Um, Patrick, that was sensational, my friend. Would you just real fast, again, I'm responding to what's with him. Yeah. Please pray for whoever. Is watching or listening to this? Absolutely. Uh, let's pray. Uh, heavenly Father, we thank you, uh, for what we've learned here today, Lord, that you are sovereign, Lord, that you have control.

You are the one that's above all. And Lord, when we don't know or understand, or even if we feel like we don't trust what you're doing, God, I pray this time together would just maybe let us take another step in that faith. And that trust to trust you, that there will be an outcome, um, God that brings you glory.

And so, Lord, I just pray for anyone's heart listening. God, I pray that you would do a mighty work in it. Um, God in areas maybe where there is suffering or questions or pain. You would bring presence back and you would bring people around them to lift them up when they're hurting. And God, I pray that whatever situation, what the enemy meant for harm, as the Bible said, uh, [00:52:00] you will use for good.

And we declare that over marriages. We declare that over jobs. We declare that over, um, performances and sports. We declare it over friendships. Even our past God, any area that the enemy meant for harm. In Jesus' name, we believe you. You will use for good. We honor you today, Lord, we thank you that you are the king of kings and Lord of Lord.

It's in Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen. Folks, he is Pastor Patrick. K. You can find him at, uh, church of the Highlands Auburn. Do you have social or something that folks can follow you? Yeah, I'm, I'm honestly terrible at socials. I'm in a, I'm a 30-year-old and a, a 66-year-old mind, like I still don't get on Instagram ever, but I do, I have Instagram, uh, Patrick Ke and um, yeah, I'm here at Churchill Highland, so would love to see 'em if they're in town.

It's worthwhile. KEIM is the last name, Patrick. God bless you. Thank you for joining us. This was sensational. I felt like you talked to me more than anybody else, so I appreciate you. Absolutely. And for [00:53:00] all of you downloading, watching, listening, please search, subscribe, follow us there on YouTube, watch if you get the chance.

Tell your friends. That's the big thing because remember, we're not gonna tell them what to do. We're gonna just be there. And so share this. And then more than anything, give us a follow on social. Uh, the handles are at the greater call. Um, and remembering always that this podcast is here for you. It's here to help guide you to the word of God, to show you illustrate lessons in life, leadership, giving a legacy, even, uh, from the heroes of our face.

So thank you for downloading