Stewarding the Future of Insurance with Travelers EVP Michael Klein

In this episode, Ben and Todd sit down with Michael Klein, Executive Vice President of Personal Insurance at Travelers. Michael shares his 35-year journey through the industry from actuary to executive leader and opens up about setbacks, leadership, early career talent, digitization, and why insurance is one of the most misunderstood but meaningful careers in America.

Main Talking Points
 • Michael’s path from math major to actuary to EVP
 • Career setbacks, resilience, and leadership insights
 • Travelers strategy and the future of personal lines
 • Digitization in the independent agent channel
 • Why insurance is misunderstood and why it matters
 • Early career talent, internships, Gamma Iota Sigma
 • Agency and carrier partnership opportunities
 • Stewardship, legacy, and investing in the next generation

Transcript

Meet Michael Klein And His Unlikely Start

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You're listening to Risk and Resolve. And now for your hosts, Ben Connor and Todd Hufford.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Welcome back to another episode of Risk and Resolve. I'm your co-host Ben Connor along with Todd Hufford. And today our special guest is Michael Klein. Michael Klein is an executive vice president and the president of personal insurance for travelers. He previously led the middle market business, served as president of commercial accounts, and was senior vice president of industry and product group. Michael joined the company in 1990 and has held various positions from commercial insurance, underwriting, knowledge management, corporate planning and development, global health care underwriting and financial professional services. Wow, Michael, you've really done it all. But also, Michael has served in a variety of industry-related and non-for-profit organizations for more than two decades. This is notable for our conversation today. He served, he currently serves as a trustee for the multi-house of care in Hartford, Connecticut. He also serves as a member of the Executive Committee for Gamma IOTA Sigma, a professional fraternity organized to encourage student interest in insurance as a profession. So very important. Michael holds a bachelor's degree in mathematics from Minnesota State University Mankato and is a fellow of the Casualty Actuarial Society. Michael, welcome to the show today.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Thanks, Ben. I thought you said they sent you the short bio. I don't know if that was the short one, but that's all right. It's all good. It's all good. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Appropriate context to the vastness of insurance experience that you have. And also we wanted to highlight, because we're going to talk about today, the uh encouraging student interest in the insurance uh industry, which is super important. Now, after going through that bio, I have to ask, when you were when you were a young type with your parents, uh did when they asked you what you wanted to be when you grow up, did you tell them, mommy and daddy, I want to be in insurance? Is that how that went? It kind of sounds like it may have because of your bio.

Coaching Lessons That Shaped Leadership

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Yeah, yeah. No, it's uh it's actually a little bit of a of a funny story. Um I uh I was a math major at Mankato. I went there originally because I thought I was gonna be a math teacher and maybe a basketball coach. Um, and then I found out I had to take all these education classes and it was gonna take me another year to graduate college, and I said, no, I want to be done in four years. So I was majoring in math at Mankato, wasn't quite sure what I was gonna do. Uh working at McDonald's to help pay my way through college. Um, so I'd go down to school during the week, go back home on the weekends. I was a manager at McDonald's. And um when when you're the manager and you get deliveries, you gotta watch the back door and you know make sure everything stays secure. And so the same guy delivered the buns every you know weekend. Uh, his name was Greg, and got to know him a little bit. And we were talking one day, and he said, So you're going to college, right? I said, Yep. He said, Math major. I said, Yep. He said, So you're good with numbers? I said, I don't know, I guess so. And uh he said, Well, what are you gonna do when you graduate? And I said, I have no idea. And he said, Well, you should be an actuary. Wow. And I said, What's that? And he said, He said, Well, I he said, I don't really know. Uh, but my brother-in-law is one. Uh, and he lives in a nice house and he drives a nice car, so it must be pretty good. Oh my gosh. And and so I'm like, Okay, that sounds interesting. So the I the most ironic part of the entire story is my mom was an office manager at an insurance agency. Oh wow, and so I went home and I said to my mom, Do you know what an actuary is? And she said, Well, of course I know what an actuary is. I work in insurance. And I'm like, Oh my god, I've been struggling to decide what I'm gonna do with my life, and you know about this career that relates to what I do, and you didn't mention it. And then, of course, she had some connections, and I did a couple informational interviews and got an internship with a life insurance company, and uh the rest is history.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

So you know, it kind of makes me think uh, you know, sometimes, especially as a parent now, with three three young kids, it seems like when other people tell my kids something that we tell them, they always think it's like something worth listening to. But then when we tell them, it's like you know, over their head or they don't listen. Is it possible that your mom did mention actuary? But Greg is just the perfect delivery mechanism for that.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

I'm just definitely, definitely not, definitely not. I listened to everything my mom said every day of my life, for sure. Oh my gosh. Actually, actually, that may or may not be true, but in fairness, I have told her that story, and she definitely agrees with it. So my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

So he he basically put your career in between two sandwich buns, yeah, and delivered it right to you at the back door, delivered it right there, yeah, ready to go.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Um, so you mentioned I'm gonna double-click into something that you you mentioned. You talked about wanting to be a basketball coach. Um has that taken, have you taken interest in basketball along the way? And has that been a part of your journey too? Or what what is basketball playing?

SPEAKER_02 5:55

So I so I played basketball in high school, um, played intramurals in college. Um, but I started playing basketball, you know, at my uh at my grade school in town, I think when I was in fourth grade. Um eventually, so I didn't go down the teacher basketball coach path, but I did eventually go back and coach the sixth grade team at the grade school that I played at, which was a ton of fun, uh with my with my uh youngest brother, um, which was which was a blast. Um, so I did that for a little while. Uh, and then uh as my as my kids got into sports, I coached most of them in um uh actually soccer, believe it or not, which I never played, but um, but uh I did enjoy coaching. Um I coached baseball for a bit, coached soccer for a bit, um, and really enjoyed being a coach. Um, and then interestingly, like a lot of the things, especially when they're younger, you know, coaching is mostly just sort of managing and encouraging, and you got to know enough about what it is they need to do to to instruct and you know and encourage them. But it's not uh it doesn't get too technical until they get a little older. So I was actually able to leverage some of those learnings to do that. It was it was a lot of fun. That's excellent.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Well, obviously, coaching is in your DNA, not only for sports and doing that for your children and having fun along the way, but uh obviously you're an important coach in the travelers organization. Um, tell us a little bit about your journey of getting involved with travelers. Obviously, you've been on Travelers for quite a period of time now. Um, so tell us what that professional journey has been like for you in the vastness of areas you've been able to uh experience, but also how that's prepared you for uh what you're doing today.

Career Pivots, Setbacks, And Resilience

SPEAKER_02 7:50

Yeah, well, so to your point, like the vastness is probably more a function of just time spent than anything else. I've been here 35 years. Um and uh, you know, it just I've just been super uh super blessed and fortunate to have just tons of opportunity uh in our industry and and with this organization. So I'll give you the the reader's digest expansion of the bio you just did real quick. But um I started, so I did start in the business as an actuary uh with St. Paul companies prior to the St. Paul merger with Travelers in 2004. Uh I spent time in home office actuarial roles. Uh I was one of the group of actuaries who were the first regional actuaries at St. Paul. So I moved from Minnesota to Denver. I was in the Denver field office for a few years, working with agents and underwriters on commercial account deals and helping support the commercial account business. Then I did some special project work, uh, worked in corporate strategy and development, worked on uh business unit strategy consulting and mergers and acquisitions. Um and then that stint in the healthcare business was St. Paul's medical malpractice business back in 2001, uh, which was a very challenging time in that industry and was brought in as part of a team to try to turn that business around. Um ultimately we weren't successful and we ended up closing that business in 2002. Uh, so I have the dubious distinction of being the last chief underwriting officer of that business. Um, and then from there, I moved into a number of business unit leadership roles. I ran a number of the specialty business units um at St. Paul and then Travelers. That senior vice president of the industry and product group was overseeing a number of those specialty businesses. Um, and then from there I moved here to Hartford, Connecticut uh in 2008. Uh, ran commercial accounts, ran middle market, and then 10 years ago came over to uh run the personal insurance business here at Travelers.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Michael, we um this is I was checking the timeline a little bit. So 2004, is that roughly when St. Paul got picked up by Travelers?

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Yep, April Fool's Day, 2004.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Oh, well. It actually worked out.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

It did work out.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Yeah, I was thinking about your career progression. You know, guy, you know, boy grows up in Minnesota, major insurance player, obviously up there, was of course in St. Paul, and then gets picked up at probably a really good time in your career. Had it been five or 10 years earlier, or five or 10 years later, it wouldn't have been the same for you. That it gets picked up and you get to ride to travelers, obviously a single great name in the industry. I'm sure you've reflected on that a little bit about, you know, it's it's well, it's better to be lucky than good. Uh seems like the timing worked out really well for you.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Yeah, it's uh it's better to be lucky than good. I use that one a lot. I uh I also like even a blind squirrel can find a nut once in a while. That's right. Um, it's another one of my favorites. Um, you know, but I think it's uh I I think you're right. I think I think the um the other one I love is um you know, success occurs when preparation meets opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Right. And and I think that a lot of times when we talk about uh life and career, uh there is certainly an element of that that is in your control, right? Your mastering your craft, your um understanding, you know, your discipline, your role and your performance. But then there is also a big element of being in the right place at the right time and being prepared for those opportunities when they present themselves.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

With Ben and I came in the agency in the 2005-2006 time frame, there were a lot of plaques that were coming off of our wall because of acquisitions. Um, of course, IO Casualty and Indiana Insurance and some of those companies, but one of them was, of course, the St. Paul. And um, so we had that plaque, and somebody had the idea to use it as an award. And so very early in our career, we passed around the Saint Paul and we would tear off little pieces of paper and you know, like a little glue stick. If you want an account, you'd write the name of the account on it, you'd glue it on there, and uh whoever had the most wins of each of any year, um, they would get to keep that plaque because we had a bunch of them, right? I mean, we were in the season of acquisitions. Um, I'm pretty sure I got to keep that plaque, Ben, didn't I? Yeah, I think I've got that one around here somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

So the St.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Paul was awarded the Todd. So your your predecessor company holds a high distinction around here. Yeah, yeah. Let's talk a little bit about um when you navigated all these different positions. Um, certainly timing was important, but you're you started as an actuary. And today, I mean, you're you're in the suite of executives right below the chief executive of one of the largest insurance companies in the country. With each of those moves, did you feel like at sometimes there may have been a step backwards? Or did it always feel like you were stepping forwards?

Mergers, Mentors, And Perspective

SPEAKER_02 13:13

That's a that's a that's a great question. And uh um, and there were there were well, there was one uh two steps potentially backward um sort of in that progression. Um, one of them I mentioned, right? So I went to uh so in the role that I was doing in corporate strategy and development, right, working on mergers and acquisitions, working on business unit strategies, we were sort of like internal strategy consultants inside the company, right? Consulting with business leaders on their strategy. And so the reason I got asked to go into the medical malpractice business was that strategic planning capability. And certainly, you know, I took on that role um as part of the senior leadership team in that business, uh, with the task of helping turn it around. And I was excited about it. Um uh, you know, and and certainly fully expected we were going to be successful. Um, and it wasn't, you know, probably minutes after the announcement was made that you know I was part of this team that I started getting emails from people like, are you sure this is a good idea? Oh wow. And and you know, to your point about steps backward, like I had not had one in my career. I didn't expect I probably ever would. Um, and you roll the clock forward nine months. Now, again, this is 2001, right? So um St. Paul is having a very difficult time in the in the medical malpractice business. Um our CEO who kicked off the project at the time, Doug Leatherdale, retired Jay Fishman came from Travelers to run the company. So that was a big change. And then tragically, of course, we experienced 9-11 in September. And so the the the um financial performance of the company and the leadership of the company changed dramatically from the start of that project until December of 2001, um, when we ultimately decided we were not going to take the medical malpractice business forward. And um, so I uh in in some respects, you look at that and say, okay, well, we didn't accomplish the mission, which was to turn the business around and and position it for future success. Um, and so that's why I describe it as a as a setback. And and literally in December of 2001, I said to my boss, you know, we're closing the business. Do I need to look for another job? Right. Um, and he said, Well, I don't think so, but if it would make you feel better, go ahead. It's like it doesn't make an interesting response. Sounds like maybe from a risk and resolve standpoint, I should resolve to look for something. You should. Um, and so uh and so I did, and and literally I was uh I had just landed back in Minnesota on a Friday after having left town to interview for a different role at another company, and he called and offered me the role running our public sector services business, nice, um, which is our business unit uh that focuses on city, county, public school uh and public entity uh exposure. So that was a setback that ultimately positioned me for the opportunity to begin to run businesses at St. Paul and then travelers. And then interestingly, and I'll make this one quicker, I ran public sector at St. Paul. Um, then I uh I was asked to run the technology business. So all of our, you know, technology, tech EL, life sciences um business about a year and a half later, but prior to the traveler's merger. Um and I got asked to run technology because somebody else, the person who ran technology got asked to run construction fast forward a year, and we're merging with travelers. And you know, you all you all you know understand the dynamics of mergers and acquisitions, right? You're putting two organizations together, you're putting two leadership teams together, you try to decide sort of which pieces fit best, right? You're trying to put the best team on the field. Um, and I got the call from my boss who said, Um, uh, we're gonna put you back in public sector. Because they were putting the construction person back in technology, because the person at Travelers that was running construction was going to run construction for the combined organization. And I remember um uh being honestly pretty devastated uh by that. Um, and I and I remember having a conversation um with my uh with my HR partner at the time, and I said, you know, this is the first time in my career that I've been asked to do a job that isn't bigger than the one I had before. And, you know, what does this mean for me? And and and again, I was still, you know, what was I 12 years into my or 14 years into my career? And you know, she had the benefit of you know, perspective and definitely shared with me that, you know, look, this isn't about you, this is about all the things that I just described that I've now learned, you know, uh uh, you know, 20 years later, um, that there's a broad set of dynamics that go into those types of decisions that you know I could only partially understand. So she cut she kindly told you, Michael, it's not about you. It's not about you. That's right. Get over yourself.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Well, what a three, four-year period of time where, you know, you prior to that, it's it's all winning. And you have an experience where, okay, well, this didn't well, I didn't expect this, and then another experience is uh, I didn't expect that either. Um you know, how did you how did you keep your mindset to continue to compete when things maybe didn't seem to be going your way?

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Yeah, yeah, no, it's a great, it's a great question, and I think um, you know, I'd I'd love to be able to tell you, you know what, I sucked it up and I stayed focused and I was 100% all in all the time all the way through. Uh, but that wouldn't, you know, that wouldn't be the truth. There were definitely times during that period, and I would say from 200 um four to two thousand and seven, those first three years post the merger, you know, there were more than a couple other times where I was like, what am I doing? Like, this is you know, this isn't worth it. This isn't what I signed up for. Um, you know, this isn't actually the company that I, you know, signed up to work for, right? The merger happened, you know, sort of in spite of me. And um, but you know, it sort of every time I sort of came to that point, um, either well, most of the time, probably not because of my own volition, but because somebody smarter than me, you know, gave me good advice. Um, you know, I recognized that there was more opportunity for me here, um, you know, really than than anywhere else. And and also that there were, you know, increasingly over time, uh, a lot more people here that were counting on me to be a leader and and be here for them. So I think those two things really were the ones that that sort of kept me or brought me back around when I when I might have might have hesitated or been been doubtful.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Who were those professional sounding boards that kind of gave you the the the star to the guiding star?

The Scale Of Personal Lines And Market Share

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Yeah, well that you know, so that first one was my HR partner at the time when I got put sort of back in public sector. Um and uh and she was she was a really good sounding board for me for for a period. Um uh then she left the organization and I had another um HR partner who was you know a big uh source of encouragement to me. Um, but probably through the through the uh the the kind of whole period there, um, you know, there were two folks. There were um Jay Fishman, who was our CEO at the time, who had come to run Travelers in 2001, um, you know, who um who tragically passed away nine years ago this month. Um and he was a constant source of of encouragement uh and support for me. Uh and then um uh uh a guy named Brian McClain, who became our president um through that through the course of of that time, um, was a was another supporter and an advocate of mine. Um and then and then ultimately um uh a guy named John Albano who ran business insurance here at Travelers for for a period of time, and and that's the organization that I was part of sort of through this whole time, um, who who interestingly um was a supporter and an advocate of mine uh throughout that whole process. But you know how sometimes in your career there's people that are in your corner that you don't even know? Yeah, like I I didn't I didn't sort of fully understand uh John's support and advocacy for me until after he retired. Um which was which was really humbling.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

What a what a what a story of you have these these people that are saying, you know, you got this encouraging you to do the thing, and you have the personal tenacity to to continue building brick by brick and to trust that these people have your best interests at heart. And and look what look at the result. So that's fantastic. Congrats to to you and uh how you know you know, hopefully, hopefully for our listeners, we're all that fortunate to you know have those folks in our life that are encouraging and and maybe also an encouragement to listeners and to ourselves is to listen when people tell you that kind of things. It for sure, for sure. Listen.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Well, and one of my you know, one of my other, you know, we've got a few favorite sayings going on here, but one of my other favorites is it takes a village. I mean, I you know, none of this is none of this is, you know, a lot of this isn't even mostly because of me. A lot of this is because of the great people that I had to work with. It's the support of, you know, my family, my friends, um, you know, my uh my wife in particular. I would I would not be sitting here in Hartford talking to you about running personal insurance and the career I've had with travelers if it wasn't for her. So I believe it.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

So let's talk about insurance for a little bit because I want to weave our way to the early career talent. But just briefly, I heard a rumor or a story that around that same time, so maybe 2006, 7, 8, 9, travelers considered selling their personalized division. Can you solve the rumor? Did that really was that a thing?

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Uh I actually have no idea. It's interesting. I don't I was in, you know, I was in commercial um in that time frame. Um, I'm I'm sure it's possible. I mean, you know, you all know, you know, again, how complicated mergers and acquisitions can be, and you're putting a bunch of businesses together. And um, you know, interestingly, St. Paul had a personal line's business when I was at St. Paul, and St. Paul did sell its personal lines business, automate life, um, back back when I was there. Um, but no, I don't, I, I don't know the answer to that.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

So obviously, travelers has grown a bunch over the last number of decades you've been there. You're now in the personal lines division, which I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, represents 30-some percent of the travelers' revenue. About 40, yep. Yep, 40 percent. Um, give us give us a little story of where you see this going. The first time I ever heard this was either from you or someone at Travelers that there is as much premium and personal lines in the US as there is in commercial.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Yep, yeah, it's true. It's actually um, so it's interesting. It's been a little bit of a uh you know, ebb and flow over the past decade or so. Uh, but in the in sort of the personal lines auto-hard market of kind of 2016, 17, 18, personal lines got as big or a little bit bigger than commercial. Um and and again, as as our commercial lines folks want to understand, part of that was at the same time that was happening, workers' comp loss experience was improving dramatically, workers' comp revenues were declining as a percentage of the overall industry. Um then you came into post-COVID. Uh, you get to you know, social inflation driving up casualty prices, you get property values rising dramatically, and commercial lines sort of surpassed personal lines for a period, and now they're pretty much neck and neck, about 50-50 in terms of the overall premium in the industry. Representing about a little over a trillion for the entire US market. Correct. So about about a half a billion dollars or sorry, half a trillion dollars each. Yeah, wow, pretty much line.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Pretty significant. At Travelers is how much in total premium? Uh a little over 17 billion. 17 billion. So you think no matter how we all know Travelers, huge company, and it has 17 of the 500. Yep. Yeah, we have about 3% market share. It's unbelievable. So somewhere else I saw that um personal lines has about a 30-some percent penetration in the independent agent channel, whereas commercial lines is something north of 85%. Is that right?

Digitization, Agents, And Growth Strategy

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Yeah, personal lines, if you put auto and property together, uh it's it's close to 36%, I think is the latest 2024 uh best data. Uh, and and growing. So it it was the independent agent channel and personal lines was more 33, 34 percent, call it five or 10 years ago. And and the personal, uh the independent agent portion of the personal lines market's been gaining share uh inside the personal lines industry. And then to your point, the majority of commercial lines distribution is is independent agents.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

So you lead the division at travelers, personal lines, which is 40% of travelers, but as I mentioned before, is only 17 of the 500 total addressable market. And it represents you guys represent a product that is distributed by advisors in the independent agency channel, which only has a sub-40% market share. So basically, you're sitting on top of a rocket ship fully loaded with fuel. Sounds like opportunity to me. That's all right.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

That's why that's why I mean that's you know, that is why uh our strategy here is focused on, you know, a couple of key priorities, one of which is optimizing risk and reward, right? And you only need to look at the industry results historically, and particularly the last couple, three years, to recognize why that's important. And you look at rising catastrophe losses and everything else. Um, but underneath that, our focus is you know digitization and modernization, right? To be easier for agents and brokers like you to do business with, uh, and to enable both of us to connect with your customers digitally, which is increasingly the way they want us to engage.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

So I asked Alan, your boss, right? Yeah. Um, at one of your agent conferences, I said, Alan, this was in a group of other agents. I says, There's a lot of successful agencies in this room. If each of us committed to spend three to five percent of our top line revenue on something that would not only help us, but travelers and the industry, what would that be? And he said, number one, digitize every aspect of your business, which is what she did. Yep. Number two, that's good.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

It's always helpful. It's always helpful.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

If your review is coming up, just submit this podcast. Review. And it's number two was find ways to communicate your business value proposition. You know, I walked away and I wrote that down feverishly real quick to make sure I got it word for word. And I've gone back and looked over that and thought, you know, everything I do, it needs to be in one of those two categories.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

Yeah, I mean, I agree. I I think um, you know, I think you all as independent agents have a and it's interesting because I think it's a shared opportunity for both for both of us and sort of all of us in the industry. I think oftentimes um our industry is misunderstood and misrepresented, unfortunately. And and this ties to the conversation about talent as well, right? I think that that when, you know, we just had 500 interns here at Travelers this summer. Wow. And and you know, to your point about consistent themes from from Alan, to a person, right? The reaction is wow, I had no idea, you know, fill in the blank how interesting this business was, what a great service, you know, insurance companies provide to customers, how important insurance is to the economy, the value of the advice of an independent agent advising me on how to manage my risks. I mean, again, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it's it's um, it's a it's a I think a blessing and a curse that insurance as an industry and as a career is sort of one of the best kept secrets out there.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

You were caught early. Uh, your first job, you know, in in the real world was in this industry. Yeah. You stayed in it. 500 interns, I'm assuming you don't hire all of them. Uh, maybe another carrier will, maybe another agency will. Is there a pathway to kind of introduce them to the agencies all across the country?

Interns, Talent Pipelines, And Gamma Iota Sigma

SPEAKER_02 31:53

There is. And in fact, I think um, so to your point, so so a little bit of quick math. So we had 20,000 applicants for our 500 internships. Wow. Right. So, so so 20 applicants per spot. Um, we won't hire all 500, we'll hire a good portion of them. Um, but it's interesting, you know, increasingly, and I think this is a little bit of the sort of post-COVID dynamic, right? Increasingly, we have more of those interns coming from more parts of the country, which means more of them are closer to your office than maybe would have been, right? It would have been St. Paul, Minnesota, and Hartford, Connecticut, and you know, surrounding areas 10 years ago. And now we've got interns um, you know, from from again, multiple places across the country. And um, and we do see those scenarios. I'll give you a real real uh quick example, and I won't I won't um say who this person is, but both of you will know um who she is. Um uh interned with us, uh, I think between her sophomore and junior year in college uh in Michigan, or I think again and again between her junior and senior year, um, and was interested in a role with travelers, but ultimately concluded that she wanted a role in Michigan and went to work for an independent agent. Um, and so um there are those opportunities, and and I think, you know, taking sort of travelers out of it and thinking about the industry, it's one of the reasons I'm so excited to be connected with Gamma Iota Sigma, right? Because we've got um chapters at 110 now, I think, universities across the country, uh, where students are starting risk manage studying risk management, insurance, uh actuarial science. Um, and more and more uh independent agent organizations are also on that board alongside the insurance companies. Right. Used to be heavy heavy carrier. Used to be heavy carrier, and now it's the executive committee's got um two uh members. It's only there, there's only you know 10 industry folks on, and I think two or three of the members of the executive committee are from independent agent organizations now, independent agent or broker organizations. And and that's great because it's actually more likely that there's gonna be an agency opportunity near the school that a lot of these kids go to than there's gonna be an insurance company opportunity, right? So I think it's a real great opportunity for both of us.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

How long has Traveler's been involved with Gamma Iota Sigma for a number of years, I would think?

SPEAKER_02 34:39

As long as I can remember, I'm I um I succeeded a colleague of mine on the board who retired. Uh, but we've been involved well back since I was at St. Paul. So um uh a long time. And again, the the organization continues to grow, the membership, uh, the attendance continues to grow. The the national conference is actually here in Hartford this year, so I'm pretty excited about that. I mean, right across the street at the convention center. Um, but I'll tell you what, I mean, these I call them kids, I probably shouldn't. These these young professionals um are pretty impressive. You know, you talk about um I I sort of say it all the time. I mean, I kind of got into the industry right out of college. I'm not sure I'd make it this. I'd not I'm not sure I'd make it in today's day and age with the competition from from uh some of these folks, you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

So we also talk about if a prioritization is digitizing for a consumer, yeah. Um, those interns in your young professionals. I mean, that's the generation that grew up using digital, whatever it is. Digital natives, we call them, right? Yep. Exactly. So um there could be an interesting feedback loop from those folks that if well, maybe they don't have the insurance expertise now, but they certainly understand a good experience digitally and what's not a good experience. And um, maybe that insurance knowledge isn't necessarily clouding their judgment of what's a usable tool and not. So that might be a uh as you have you found that to be an interesting feedback loop along the way.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

Absolutely, right? They're not they're not encumbered by this is the way we've always done it, right? They come in with a uh perspective of the way that their life works and the way that they do things. And um, we uh again, there there's more than a handful of examples uh from this past summer where you know, even the intern's manager, who is generally an early in career professional, said, you know, gave the intern an assignment, and then the intern said, well, what if I think about it this way? You know, and the manager's like, Oh, that's a really good idea. That would be a better way to do it. I mean, it's it's um, it's again, it's it's a really a tremendous uh opportunity, not just for the interns, but for us as an organization to bring in fresh talent with new ideas and put a fresh set of eyes on what we do. And and oftentimes the suggestions relate exactly to that, right? There's a more digital way to do that, there's a more efficient way to do that, there's a way to leverage technology to solve this problem that you haven't thought about. Um, it's really, really tremendous.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Michael, how how severe is the gap that we have between the retirements versus those coming into the industry?

SPEAKER_02 37:29

You know, it's um it's it's it's not as severe uh as it might be in some other areas, I think. Um, but you know, I think you only have to look at the unemployment rate in insurance, which is closer to 2% than it is to four. Super low to know that we're kind of in a full employment and we need everybody we can get, uh, type of uh type of dynamic, which is why investments in you know, organizations like Gamma and a lot of the other things, by the way, that you know, you all do each and every day, like you know, podcasts like this and and the investments you make in your local communities or with your local educational institutions are are just super important. And it and if you think about it, you know, I think um I think independent agents are actually uniquely positioned to help with this because um if you go back to our industry as misunderstood and misrepresented, and then you go to your role as a trusted advisor, and what you do is to explain risk management and insurance to your clients and help them understand how to better manage their risks, you're in a great position to be a spokesperson for this industry, to engage with students who don't know a lot about the industry and help them better understand it. Um, you know, you're you you all are, I think, sort of built for that challenge.

Correcting Misconceptions About Insurance

SPEAKER_01 38:58

When you say that uh the industry is misunderstood and misrepresented, uh double-click into that. What are some of the the things about our industry that would fall into that category?

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Well, I think so I would I would start with um sort of the headlines, right? The headlines you read are um, you know, big bad insurance company cancels customer. Um uh there's a disaster, and this homeowner didn't have enough insurance or didn't get their claim paid, right? I mean, bad news gets headlines, right? Uh, and but I think that those are the headlines that people think of when they think of insurance broadly. And the fact of the matter is, we're not in the business of looking for opportunities to deny claims. By the way, drive down the highway and look at uh plaintiff attorney billboards, and they would have you believe that insurance companies are in the business of trying to figure out how to not pay claims. Um, when in reality we pay billions and billions of dollars of in claims on an annual basis. Um we have, and I and and again, this is some that that's an industry comment. Um, we enable uh consumers to purchase homes, right? You can't get a mortgage if you don't have insurance. That's right. Uh we we help customers buy cars. You can't drive a car off a lot without an insurance card. Um, so there's a there's a uh enabling people to uh succeed and acquire the things that they want to and thrive that I don't think insurance gets enough credit for. And then we are there for people on their worst days, right? You all are there guiding your customer through how to recover after a fire, right? And working with the insurance company on how to settle that claim and helping them to put their life back together and replace the things um, you know, that um that that were were damaged or lost. You go to the commercial line side of the house and look at a uh a line of business like workers' compensation, right? Helping injured workers recover and get back to work. I mean, there's just there's example after example after example of the value that our industry provides to businesses and individuals through the partnership of carriers like travelers and agencies like yours. And I just don't think that that's a a story that gets told enough. Yep. And then from a career standpoint, the misunderstood part is I think most people think the jobs and insurance are the ones you do underwriters, claims, and actuaries. Right? We all hire digital marketing professionals, market researchers, data and analytics professionals, software engineers. Um, you know, the list goes on and on. I mean, I all I will have conversations with deans of business schools at colleges and universities who say, oh, like travelers would be an opportunity for my computer science majors. Wow. Like, yeah, of course it would. Of course it would, right? So that's the that's the maybe that's more than a double click, Ben, but no, it's great.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Um, and I totally agree with you about um just being uh misinterpreted um or misrepresented, I suppose. Um, you know, I had a moment uh call it four years ago. I was actually sitting in church and um, you know, the the service, and this usually never happens, but there was a opportunity for people to come up and share personal testimony to, you know, where they seen uh God, you know, show up and you know bless their lives or whatever in relation to the sermon of, you know, you know, that sort of thing. And I was sitting there and just listening, and five people got up and shared personal testimony to, you know, where they saw God's goodness. And it was uh out of the five, uh two were were health conditions, one was a car wreck, and another was a house fire. So four out of the five scenarios that were shared were mile marker moments in those folks' lives. And I sat in the back and was like, oh my goodness, we intersect with those four every day. Yeah, car wreck, house fire, and then on the employee benefit side, it's diagnosis or whatever that may be. And to your point, that's where I was like, that's it. You know, we're not just writing policies, although doing that effectively is table stakes. You have to do that for sure. Um but our calling is that we have the honor and opportunity to show up and provide sound counsel and care during life's most significant moments.

unknown 44:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

And moments that people remember forever is our opportunity to show up and be a guide and to see what they need and help the insurance company and the policy that they purchase respond to fulfill that need, um that direct need. So I totally agree with you.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

Absolutely. It's uh it's our you know, our our um uh quick quick traveler's plug, but our our marketing and advertising campaign is is centered on remarkable things happening when people care.

SPEAKER_03 44:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

And it leverages a lot of those examples of where, you know, our our claim representatives, who are, by the way, I think extraordinary, um, went above and beyond to deliver for people in their biggest time of need. So it's a it's an important, important service we provide.

Bullish Or Bearish On Industry Readiness

SPEAKER_01 45:05

So um you mentioned uh, by the way, thank you for the the vantage point, uh, Michael and Todd on personal lines of just how big of a market it is, as well as like I think of travelers being market leading. And then you mentioned we have three percent market share that blows my mind. Um, so when you guys look at Michael, that big blue ocean of premium, what's exciting for travelers is you guys look to grow and displace, if you will, um, even some of those direct writers and that kind of thing. What what what to you is like, all right, we're gonna we're gonna have a lot of success here.

SPEAKER_02 45:55

I I I will go back to the conversation we were having earlier about digitization and modernization. I'm just I'm very excited about the opportunity that we have to work with you all and firms like yours to supercharge those capabilities and make them more accessible and more easily available uh to you and to your clients. I think that if we if we do that effectively, uh we're gonna make your business more efficient and effective, we're gonna make our business more efficient and effective, and we're gonna do a better job of delivering value to customers the way they want to receive that value. And and I think with you know 3% here at Travelers and you know, roughly a third of the market in the hands of independent agents and brokers like yours, there's tons of opportunity, and I think that's super exciting.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Let's play a little game. Let's call it bullish and bearish. Four questions. Oh boy, you can you could do neutral as well. All right. Um, and this is all themed around readiness to um attract and retain this early career talent. Okay, bullish or bearish, and and you have to kind of divorce yourself from your role at traveler. So this your answer will be kind of agnostic to travelers. All right, carrier readiness to welcome, to attract and retain early career talent, bullish, bearish, or neutral? Bullish. Same question for agencies. Bullish. Okay. You've seen some. The quality of students coming out of the schools doing some of your internships, bullish or bearish or neutral?

SPEAKER_02 47:41

Is there something more than bullish?

SPEAKER_00 47:44

That's uber bullish. Uber bullish. Uber bullish. Last one. The broad industry's ability to communicate our value proposition to early career talent. Uh neutral. Yeah. Okay, so let's uh let's camp there just just for a second. You've got the material, which is the uh the student body. That's the firewood. Yep. Um you've got the carriers on one side, you've got the agencies on the other, one's the spark, one's the oxygen. But yet there's this lid of the the broad industry, which which frankly is all of us. So I kind of backed you to a corner there a little bit. You were bullish on certain aspects, yet neutral on all of us together. So is there something where one plus one is equaling zero in this scenario?

Stewardship, Legacy, And What’s Next

SPEAKER_02 48:41

I think it's I think it comes down to our either well, on one end of the spectrum, I think sometimes we are our own worst enemy as an industry. Yep. Uh, because we actually have industry participants who um either uh minimize or in some cases undermine the value proposition that we provide. Um there are there are industry participants who sort of point fingers within the industry to say, well, we're the only ones who really have your interest in mind, and other people don't, which doesn't help the overall industry image. Um and I think that's sort of one end of the spectrum. I think there's a lot of participants in our industry who are just not vocal enough about the value that we provide and the opportunities that are available. Um, and I think that those two elements, um, unfortunately, today, this is why I say I'm neutral, sort of sort of neutralize those of us having conversations like this, those of us that are trying to tell the story about the commerce that we enable, about the progress and the success and the thriving that we support um above and beyond fulfilling the promise to pay, which is, you know, to your point, right? We've got to have the right covers, we've got to have the right policy. That's table stakes, that's what people expect from us. Um, but we got to shift that conversation into how remarkable things can be. Um, and how much uh, and I I I shouldn't say this quote because I can't remember whose it is, but um, you know, that insurance is sort of the the the grease that that um fuels the wheels of the economy. Absolutely. Because it is. Um, and so I think to go from neutral to bullish, more of us need to get on board with with with telling that story.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Well, no one ever celebrates the grease, they just get upset when it's not there.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

That's right. Fair point.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 51:02

I think it's right though. I mean, I think as an industry in general, and it for me it took a long time of like see it's seeing past the policy. Yep. It's all the other things that are enabled from that for the consumer, as well as from a job enrichment perspective, like what you have the opportunity to shop and do every day. Um, and our our industry is traditionally, and I agree with you see about neutral. Um, our industry is having this really hard time seeing past the policy, probably simply because that's just what we do every day. Yeah. It's like, oh, this is what I do every day. Like, yeah. Um, doesn't sound terribly exciting, but you're not really speaking to the vastness of what you're actually doing, or to your point, what you said earlier, the vastness of like participants in the journey. It's not just insurance professionals that are all right. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Michael, I recently had the uh the pleasure, but the uh sadness of dropping our oldest off at college. So our first time of doing that. And I think you've done that at least once already, right? Yeah, three times. Yeah. My my youngest is a senior in college. Yep. And the the visual I kind of got was this idea of just sand falling between the cracks in your fingers, just sifting, just the time. Where did the time go? Yep. Which kind of feels like this podcast in some ways, but I also want to think about that in terms of our careers. Um, I know where I'm at, I'm already kind of starting to feel like that. Like, hey, I'm at that point where there's probably as much ahead of me as there is behind me. And as you kind of transition through those seasons, are you starting to feel that a little bit where it's like the sand is sifting through? And whatever you wanted to do for the industry, for the company, for your career, you're kind of like, I need to do it now because tomorrow's not guaranteed.

SPEAKER_02 52:59

Yeah, I mean, look, there's a lot more sand in the bottom of my hardware than yours. So um I am uh I'm I'm well past uh past halfway. And and that really, you know, I mean, it's it's one of the reasons that I um uh focus on talent development uh and and career, not just for travelers, but for the industry. I think it's really important, you know. I mean, you you've heard my story. I am again blessed and fortunate to have found travelers, to have found an amazing career with a terrific company in a great industry, or I work with wonderful people um to fulfill a uh a valuable mission. And I think it's incumbent upon all of us who have had those opportunities to ensure that they exist for those you know. First of all, I've got a lot more sand in the bottom of my hourglass than than you do. So um I'm I'm even further down that path. But it's one of the reasons I'm so committed to uh investing in talent for the industry um and and for travelers. I think I've been so blessed and fortunate to be part of uh a wonderful organization in a terrific industry and gotten to meet and work with you know an amazing group of people to fulfill an important mission. And I feel an obligation to ensuring that those opportunities exist for those who follow me and who follow us, uh, and that you know, travelers as as a company and and uh the independent agent distribution channel um as as an element of our industry are thriving. Um and and there, I I sort of view myself as a as a steward as much of anything, right? This the company isn't mine, the industry isn't mine, I've been a beneficiary of it, and and I have an obligation, I think we all do, to steward it for that next generation and leave it, leave it better than we found it. And I think that's just a uh a more and more front of mind for me each and every day, and something I really strive to be able to do.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

Very well put. And I know, like you mentioned in the beginning, you had advocates that were obvious to you, apparently in front of you, and you had advocates in your corner that you didn't realize were there, and I know you're doing that for others today. There are some that know you're very much uh advocating for them, and there are probably many, many others that don't even realize how much you're doing in the background to make sure they're in the exact position uh to succeed long after you decide to hang it up. So for that, I thank you.

SPEAKER_02 55:33

Well, I can only I can only hope that's the case. I uh I uh I continue to do my best and and hope that uh hope that that's the case. But um, you know, it's it's uh it's part of what we what we all do and aspire to, I think.

SPEAKER_01 55:48

Michael, um thanks for joining us today and sharing your background and your vision for our industry, but also what travelers is up to. Um as we kind of close on the episode, we ask our guests two questions um to end the episode. So um I'll I'll ask the first one, but what is a risk that you have taken that has changed your life?

SPEAKER_02 56:13

Uh so that risk was making the decision to pick up and move to Hartford, Connecticut uh almost 18 years ago, um, which I mentioned earlier, uh my wife having as much or more to do with uh my success and our success than anybody. Um when we had the conversation, the last conversation about making the decision to move, uh I said, let's not. We don't need to. We're doing fine. We've already moved twice because of my job. We don't need to put the family through that. We're gonna be fine here. And she said, I think we should go. And I said, Why is that? And she said, Because if we don't, we'll always wonder whether or not we should have.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

Second question, Michael, what is left yet unfinished that you have the resolve to complete?

SPEAKER_02 57:09

Yeah, that'd be the conversation we were just having, right? Leave leave this company, leave this industry uh in a better place than I found it. Uh create at least as much opportunity for others as as others created for me, if not more. Um, and it's a it's a continued and important focus of of mine uh each and every day.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

That's excellent. Well, Michael, thanks for joining us today, and thank you to our listeners for joining another episode of Risk and Resolve. Catch you next time. Thanks for tuning in to Risk and Resolve.

SPEAKER_03 57:43

See you next time.