Stanford MBA: From Baby Boomer to Gen Z | Class of ‘95 Meets Class of ‘25

🎬 Podcast Ep. 4 | Stanford MBA – From Baby Boomer to Gen Z | Fran Sachs ’95 meets Kate Kabat '25

• Katharine McLennan • Season 1 • Episode 4

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This is Episode 4. Today, I’m joined by Fran Sachs, a senior executive with over 25 years of experience growing service businesses and driving organisational change. Fran’s career includes roles in Fortune 500 companies, middle-market organisations, and start-ups. For the past 17 years, she and her husband have optimised supply chain and logistics for their clients through their business.

Joining us as well is Kate Kabat, a second-year dual-degree MBA-MS student in Stanford’s Emmett Interdisciplinary Program in Environment and Resources (E-IPER). Kate has worked in management consulting at Bain & Company and on growth strategy for BioLite, a clean energy company in Nairobi. This summer, she is expanding access to clean energy as an Investments Fellow with the Nevada Clean Energy Fund while enjoying Reno’s hiking trails.

Fran and Kate bring diverse perspectives, reflecting on their journeys and the evolving business landscape. Fran shares leadership lessons from her career, including building and leading businesses in Florida, while Kate highlights Stanford’s focus on sustainability and her work with the Nevada Clean Energy Fund. Together, they explore adaptability, the power of human connection, and the enduring importance of leadership in a rapidly changing world.


Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Participants
06:05 Fran's Career Journey and Transition
07:54 Kate's Stanford Experience and Climate Initiatives
09:42 Evolution of Climate Discussions at Stanford
11:10 Leadership Development at Stanford
15:10 Impactful Classes and Learning Experiences
24:40 Leadership Lessons from Career Transitions
32:02 Key Takeaways for Future Entrepreneurs
35:01 Stanford's Support for Social Impact Initiatives
37:56 Internship Experiences and Career Paths
38:55 Diversity in the Current Stanford Class
40:02 Cultural Exchange and Learning Opportunities
42:00 Gender Dynamics in Business Education
43:51 Navigating Marriage and Career
45:55 The Impact of AI on Education and Work
53:56 Academic Focus and Personal Growth
56:53 Advice for Future Generations
01:07:59 For more insights , subscribe to this podcast series and visit katharinemclennan.com

Join the Podcast Series
Stanford MBA: From Baby Boomer to Gen Z | Class of ‘95 Meets Class of ‘25

Each of these episodes will feature a different pair of Stanford MBA people -- one from the class of 1995, and one from the class of 2025.

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Contact: kath@katharinemclennan.com


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Note: this transcript is generated by AI, so it won’t always be perfect, especially when it comes to: 

·        Incorrect breaks in a sentence (AI hears the pause and assumes a new sentence)

·        Exact word recognition – you may see that there are words that don’t make sense from time to time

Katharine McLennan (00:06)

Welcome to the Stanford MBA 30 year alumni bridge, a podcast series where each episode brings together a different set of two people. One person from the Stanford MBA class of 1995 and one from the class of 2025. I'm Katharine Keough-McLennan your host for these inspiring and often humorous conversations. I am also from the Stanford MBA class of 1995. This series celebrates a unique year.

the class of 2025's graduation, the class of 1995's 30th reunion, and the 100th anniversary of Stanford Graduate School of Business. It's also an opportunity to connect two generations shaped by transformative eras. Our class of 1995, now in our 60s, give or take, were born just as the generation called Baby Boomers became the generation called X. We graduated from Stanford

just as the internet arrived, marking the shift from the industrial age to the information age. The class of 2025, now in their 30s, give or take, were born just as the generation called Y, or millennials, became the generation Z called digital natives. They are graduating from Stanford into a world where their information age is definitely giving way

to an era of artificial intelligence. Will this new era become the integration age where AI sparks human creativity or the isolation age marked by disconnection and a rising sense of purposelessness? Join us as we explore these questions, share insights, and bridge the generations.

Katharine McLennan (01:55)

This is Episode 4. Today I am joined by Fran Sachs, a senior executive with over 25 years of experience in growing service businesses, driving organizational change. She is one of my classmates from the class of 1995. Her career spans everything from Fortune 500 companies, middle market organizations, and startups. And for the last 17 years, she's been partnered with her husband in their

own company that optimizes supply chain and logistics for their clients.

I'm also joined by Kate Kabat, a second year dual degree MBA, MS student who is getting the degree from the business school, but also an MS from Stanford's EMEA Interdisciplinary Program in Environment and Resources, EIPER for short. Kate has worked in management consulting at Bain & Company and also on a growth strategy for BioLite, which was a clean energy company in Nairobi.

Last summer, she focused on expanding access to clean energy as an investment fellow with the Nevada Clean Energy Fund while also enjoying Reno's hiking trails. and Kate bring rich and diverse perspectives to this conversation, reflecting on their journeys and the evolving business landscape. Fran shares insights from her career, including building and leading businesses in Florida, and reflections on leadership lessons over the decades. Kate.

discusses the increasing focus on sustainability and climate at Stanford, her experience working with the Nevada Clean Energy Fund, and how she thinks AI is reshaping education and work. Together, they explore the importance of adaptability, the power of human connection, and the ongoing relevance of leadership in a rapidly changing world. Please welcome Kate and Fran.

Katharine McLennan (03:50)

30 years is hard to believe for us, Fran. We're about to come up to our reunion and for 30 years and it just struck me that I think we have some updating to do.

Fran Sachs (03:53)

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (04:01)

Why don't we start a little bit and I'll get Fran to speak and just briefly what you're up to now, where you are, just so we can get geography and what you're up to in work or retiring yet, et cetera. Fran, why don't you have a crack?

Fran Sachs (04:17)

So I live in South Florida and we moved here a little over 20 years ago, which is still kind of shocking to me because I used to, we used to come down and visit. My parents were down here snowboarding and I would come down and just make fun of anyone that lived here. And now I live here and I know we're not being political, but aside from the politics, I love living here. So.

Katharine McLennan (04:34)

Ha

Fran Sachs (04:42)

I just a few months ago actually stepped down from my sort of my day job. I was running a very high-end residential interior design firm, came in, grew the business several times over and just decided that I was done. And my husband and I, and a lot of people know John because he visited a lot when we were out there.

Katharine McLennan (04:52)

Bye!

Fran Sachs (05:04)

he has a supply chain and business, a supply chain and transportation consulting business. And so I've sort of come back into that. So it was always Gilbert Sachs Group, just to make it sound bigger. So I keep saying, putting the Sachs back in. So now we're trying to focus on actually growing that. And this is sort of, this is the last hurrah. So...

Katharine McLennan (05:22)

Love it.

Fran Sachs (05:29)

just trying to, you know, grow it and and sort of kick it up a notch. And then and I because he is it's he's the expert. I'm not fully engaged with it, which I am enjoying immensely. So yeah. Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (05:43)

that's great, Fran. So

good to hear. And Kate, what have you been up to in your second year of Stanford Business School?

Kate Kabat (05:52)

I actually just finished up a trip to China. So there's a China Stanford exchange program with Tsinghua University in Beijing. And we just finished up kind of our time, our week at Tsinghua University, and then we'll be hosting a group of students when they come to Stanford in February. So I've been doing that and working on organizing the GSB's annual climate summit.

a leader in the Corporations in Society initiative, which is just kind of a forum to bring in different guest speakers and have students and faculty and other people around campus come in and talk about major issues in with how corporations engage with society. And so kind of a place for conversations that don't naturally happen in all of our classes. So those are probably two of the things I'm most excited about.

Katharine McLennan (06:39)

I mean, it's

interesting and it's hilarious because we realized in setting this up that Kate was coming to Sydney on her way back from Beijing to San Francisco, which actually, you know, in this world makes total sense, right? So it's fun. I might get Kate's story in a minute if I'm going to. Anyway, it was fun to catch up to somebody. And what's interesting about what you said, Kate, is a little bit

Kate Kabat (06:53)

Almost. Maybe not quite.

Katharine McLennan (07:08)

of I think Fran how the GSB has changed immensely. Of course, climate was not on our agenda. And Kate, why don't you talk a little bit about how it, mean, not only the conferences, but even what you're studying is and even your summer job. It'd be interesting just a little bit to hear how it's incorporated now into Stanford.

Fran Sachs (07:15)

No, not at all.

Kate Kabat (07:30)

Yeah, I think a little bit less so in like across the broad spectrum of classes, but there are quite a few climate classes on offer. There are usually a couple every quarter. So this quarter I'm in one that's on climate finance in the private markets. So it's about just kind of regular investing in climate. And then I think there are quite a few extracurricular opportunities.

I guess there was a business and environment club and an energy club which is sort of merged into the GSB climate club, which a few of my friends are leading that. And there's just a much stronger community. So I think the GSBs had some really cool climate focused startups come out of it. And so then I think there are quite a few people who would like to do something similar in my class. And then overall, just a much bigger.

Fran Sachs (07:57)

Yeah.

Kate Kabat (08:15)

topic of conversation around campus, I think. Because you can't really live in this world and not realize that climate change is happening and know that it's going to be super important, especially from a risk perspective for businesses. So that's coming up quite a bit.

Katharine McLennan (08:28)

and your degree K.

Kate Kabat (08:29)

yes. Another option. So I'm also doing a joint degree in the EIPER program, the Emmett Interdisciplinary Program in Environment and Resources. I think that's the acronym. But it's effectively environmental science. I don't, I think it's maybe 15 years old. Yeah.

Fran Sachs (08:40)

Did that even exist?

Yeah, didn't think

so. That's great.

Katharine McLennan (08:47)

So you get a,

Kate Kabat (08:48)

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (08:48)

is it a double masters? Okay, or, and it's called.

Kate Kabat (08:50)

Yes, yeah. So I have a

MS in environment and resources, which is basically, I think, environmental science. Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (08:55)

That's so

awesome, Kate. Fran, let's try to remember, I don't even think climate even had a word. I think maybe the green, I said it yesterday, I was so embarrassed.

Fran Sachs (09:05)

I'm trying to remember,

trying to remember when that

Kate Kabat (09:07)

The greenhouse effect, yeah.

Fran Sachs (09:07)

out when Al Gore movie, when did when did when did that come out? I mean, that was that was the beginning, right? Right. So inconvenient truth. That was the beginning.

Katharine McLennan (09:10)

Yeah, God. I don't know.

Kate Kabat (09:12)

I want to say

that was 2000-ish, a little after he lost the election. Yeah. Maybe 2001.

Katharine McLennan (09:16)

2000?

And I

actually think that was produced by Jeff Skoll's company. I mean, yeah, okay. Yeah, it had to be. Yeah. So if you cast your mind back then, 1995, I mean, what was on our minds, Fran? Like, I don't know, what were the challenges? What were we? Were we even looking outside the campus? Yeah. Yeah.

Fran Sachs (09:24)

Yeah, I think so. So then it had to be afterwards. Yeah.

Yes, I mean, there definitely were people that were. I was

not one. Well, I did a little bit, but not a lot. But I would think, you because that there was definitely I think that the people that self-select into Stanford, I think tend to have my perception of it is, you know, tend to have it was about social good. You know, how are we going to do good? But but it was more on

Katharine McLennan (10:06)

It was. Yeah.

Fran Sachs (10:12)

just like nonprofits and that type, know, because there was that whole contingent and there was a certificate program, which I didn't do and I can't remember the name of it, there was, yes, that. So that was the big, yes, so that was the big program. But no, there was no discussion around environment. just wasn't.

Katharine McLennan (10:21)

PMP, yeah, public management, yeah.

One of the things, Fran, I was talking to Kate about yesterday was the integration or they also had Kate was it social? It's a social enterprise institution.

where it's not so much about nonprofit, it's about sustainable good, I guess, Fran, in terms of what you were talking about. And I was talking about the fact that whilst we had a few people going into the nonprofit, the activity during campus or during the two years, I just remember more charity organized where we would go to East Palo Alto, for example, and help with the schools. And it was just something

Kate Kabat (10:43)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (11:09)

good to do. And Kate, we talked a little bit about volunteering, but I think you guys are doing it more interestingly now as the fabric of an ongoing sustainable thing. Why don't you tell us a little bit.

Kate Kabat (11:20)

Yeah,

people are, I think, much more interested in trying to create more of a social enterprise and just a business that's addressing the root causes of some of these issues. And so I think there's some more classes and so on around scaling impact, kind of beyond just like the person to person volunteering. So it'll be really interesting to see kind of how that shakes out and if that continues,

if that model sort of works well, because I think it's extra hard. We actually talk about this a lot in class around like, if profits not like the sole organizing metric of the business, then what is and how do you manage trade-offs because you're inevitably going to have multiple metrics and there are so many downsides and unintended consequences.

Katharine McLennan (11:51)

It's hard.

Yep. Yep.

what classes that stood out for you, Fran, academic experience?

Fran Sachs (12:11)

yeah,

I would say,

I mean, Tatyfili obviously is kind of, it is, that, you know, and I would say, I took an entrepreneurship class, which I was never that interested in. I didn't think of myself that way. And I, I really liked it a lot. And I'm trying to, Wendell, I think, was the professor, was it Wendell?

But I really liked it. It took me a couple of years to go that route, which I wound up doing. yeah, that was really impactful. And also, I think later we talk about leadership, but learning to lead, I was really impactful. so, I mean, I don't know if you want to talk about that now, or we can talk about it later when we're talking about.

Katharine McLennan (12:49)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sure, let's jump into

it because friend that was the learning to lead program. I believe you correct me wrong. I think we were the first class. Yeah.

Fran Sachs (13:03)

We were, we were.

And believe it or not, Kate, back in the day, it was controversial because there was a belief that leaders could not be taught. Leaders were only born. You had it or you didn't. And so there were three professors that joined together to teach leadership. And it was like this huge deal.

Katharine McLennan (13:29)

was.

Fran Sachs (13:29)

and

they actually did it over two trimesters. We did it in the last one, so then in the summer we had to this, we met during the summer, because they wanted us to use our internship as a lab for it, and then we came back in the fall.

So at the time, just this concept of learning about different styles of leadership and, you know, what does leadership mean and how do you be a better leader and more mindful? it was considered cutting edge. And I think that for most of us, we hadn't really read about any of that or learned about any of that. So it really was, it was a great class and it was a great group of people.

And so that was really impactful and made me think a lot more about leadership style and like bad bosses I've had, good bosses and what made, what was the difference.

Katharine McLennan (14:19)

Yeah, I remember that now and that's my field of, well, I'm not going to say expertise, but let's say interest, field of interest for 30 years. So, you know, and I didn't even join the class. was, you know, what, and I should have done the entrepreneurship, but what's interesting again is Kate and I were reflecting yesterday about my, my real, you know, it's the comprehensive system and approach to talent and leadership.

in organizations. And Kate, you had a couple of points. I'd love to hear. Because obviously, I hope that you guys now have an entrenched leadership development. But what else have you reflected on, Kate, that's interesting.

Kate Kabat (14:54)

Yeah. So I think there are lot

of classes that we have now that are on kind of personal leadership and like how you engage with people kind of one-on-one. Like touchy feely is probably like the best example of that. But there's also a class called lead labs. It's part of the core curriculum. So everyone's required to take it. You have a bunch of like role play activities and they don't really tell you what you're supposed to be doing. You're supposed to be reaching the decision in an effective way that gets everyone in the group participating. So.

It's like, it feels very small scale leadership of how am I showing up in this meeting for 45 minutes, trying to get this group around me to come to a decision and yeah, take an action, even though everyone else is trying to do the same thing. So yeah, it's a little chaotic. But so you have those types of things. But then, as I said to you yesterday, I feel like there's not.

Katharine McLennan (15:42)

bunch of leaders.

Kate Kabat (15:52)

a lot of classes around like how do you actually design your organization and like what should you like in order to have an effective company or nonprofit or whatever, how do you set up the different structures? And so it's embedded in some of the other classes, but there's a little bit less on like leading at scale. And so it's kind of, you're sort of left to figure it out for yourself without like a structure around it. So that's something that I think about.

Katharine McLennan (16:05)

Mm.

Mm.

Kate Kabat (16:18)

kind of often of like, feel like I'm getting a good sense for how you might need like an individual team and what might feel good for me there. But then, yeah, thinking more broadly about it. I were trying to, you know, I'm not really interested in entrepreneurship, but if I was creating my own startup, like how would you want to set things up to make it work really well?

Katharine McLennan (16:18)

Mm.

Fran Sachs (16:37)

Mm-hmm.

Katharine McLennan (16:39)

Yeah, yeah, so interesting. Okay. Fran remind where did you go after business school? Remind me.

Fran Sachs (16:44)

I went to New York and I worked for a health club chain. But I was introduced to them in an entrepreneur class. And so we used one of their senior VPs as a source because we were doing, it was a health club.

Katharine McLennan (16:48)

That's right! That's right!

okay, okay, okay. Yeah.

Fran Sachs (17:03)

That was our thing. were building we used somebody there as a source. So they hired me. So I went in as sort of the lone NBA. So I kind of just wended my way through. was a pick your own adventure kind of thing. So I was there for five years. Yeah, and did a bunch of different stuff.

Katharine McLennan (17:26)

What were the major lessons in leadership as you went from New York to Florida?

Fran Sachs (17:32)

I mean, was a very, I mean, this was so, that was 20 years ago. Florida was very different than New York. One was that there weren't, at that time, now it's very different, but at that time there weren't a lot of folks with our kind of background and credentials. So because of that, I was getting to meet with people and talk to people that I shouldn't have been able to.

Katharine McLennan (17:36)

Yeah, okay.

Yeah.

Fran Sachs (17:56)

I was meeting with like heads of firms and CEOs and stuff because they just weren't used to seeing somebody like us down there, down here. But as far as leadership is concerned, it was a very different workforce. Very, very different. You know, I talk to people. I wound up at one startup and we were hiring people and I was interviewing people and they're like, that's a half hour away? Yeah, that's too far.

Katharine McLennan (18:04)

Yeah.

Fran Sachs (18:22)

I can't do that drive every day. then we hired people and we did this whole training and they came in and they went out for lunch and like two people literally didn't come back. So yeah, it was very, very different. So that was then. Now it's definitely very different, but that was eye opening.

Katharine McLennan (18:33)

Goodness.

Yeah.

Well, it's, it's interesting going into the world that Kate is going into, versus ours where just talk a little bit about the day-to-day experience at the business school because Fran, I don't even think we hadn't, no, we didn't have the internet coming in, right? We had something.

Fran Sachs (19:00)

We,

so we had, it was just starting. So we definitely had, cause I remember Steve Jurvetson running around talking about the World Wide Web and doing, he would do like tours and he would have people come and he would like take you online and show you. I remember that very vividly. And then, and then there was modest,

Katharine McLennan (19:05)

Okay.

yes.

Fran Sachs (19:26)

email. It was internal. my now husband, our second year got, he was at NYU in his first year. So he had access to the internet as well because he had an EDU. So we would email and we treated it like live chat. We would like set a time and we would sit down like,

And like, okay, at two o'clock be in the computer lab. And then, because you had to be in the computer lab, you couldn't do it from home. And we would send emails back and forth. And that was a way for us to communicate. Because the first year, it was all phones and snail mail. And the phones were like long distance rates. Like our phone bill was, just to talk to each other was a couple hundred dollars a month.

Katharine McLennan (19:53)

Love that.

Yeah, like fixed phones, though, fixed line phones.

god, that's

crazy.

Fran Sachs (20:13)

So yeah, so as far as technology is concerned, there wasn't a lot back then. But it was the cutting edge and sort of the class before us, our class, the class after us, we had a lot of very visionary classmates. I certainly was not one and I don't think Kath was either. But they really went and, you know, but they created what

Katharine McLennan (20:29)

No. No. I totally missed the- Yeah, go ahead, Fran.

Fran Sachs (20:37)

we have now, which is crazy.

Katharine McLennan (20:40)

It is crazy. I kind of missed the technology club meetings. What do I need to pay attention to that for? so Kate, no mobile phones, no, I don't even know if we had laptops. We probably had computers at home, but I don't think we had laptops, all right?

Fran Sachs (20:53)

No, definitely did not have laptops.

Katharine McLennan (20:55)

Okay, so now let's zoom forward 30 years and of course we know all technology has changed but here's the interesting thing I spoke again, the classroom Kate, talk a little bit about the technology dynamics in the classroom I found interesting.

Kate Kabat (21:12)

Yeah, so they're really pushing to have it be a device-free classroom so that students are more engaged and focused, which I think is a whole set of policies that was unnecessary in the 90s. yeah, so I think in general, that's the default is no phones, no laptops. Some professors will allow laptops. think none technically allow phones.

Katharine McLennan (21:23)

you

Kate Kabat (21:35)

But then there's a little bit of almost like the soft power over the classroom where if the professor is really good and engaged then, or engaging, then you're gonna get students who are very focused. Whereas I think sometimes if people are not enjoying the class as much, then the laptops slowly sneak out, which I myself am guilty of at times.

Katharine McLennan (21:55)

Yeah, yeah. Well, it must be

a hard habit to break because all of a sudden you have to remember how to use your hand to write.

Kate Kabat (22:01)

Yeah, yeah, when I first came

to Stanford, it was so refreshing to be in a class or sometimes speaker events and stuff where I'm just pen and paper, listening. It's much easier to focus. And I think, yeah, you're so distracted all the time with all the devices. And even when I was in work meetings, I feel like if you're more senior, you can get away with a notepad.

Katharine McLennan (22:18)

Yeah.

Yeah

Kate Kabat (22:26)

But if you're more junior, you gotta have your computer and then, yeah, it's pulling you in different directions.

Katharine McLennan (22:30)

Yeah,

it is pulling it'd be interesting to look at the effect of how you take in information and how you express information. But what hasn't changed Fran and I recall is Stanford's and no doubt business schools in general, but their excellence at having conversations amongst 50 students or 60 students and the really, I don't know. What do you remember of those class format conversations, Fran?

Fran Sachs (22:59)

I mean, there's a lot of building ons.

Katharine McLennan (23:02)

Yeah.

Building on what Kate said, even though I don't even remember what she said, I just want to put my own opinion in.

Kate Kabat (23:04)

That has not changed.

Fran Sachs (23:12)

probably what I remember the most.

Katharine McLennan (23:14)

I learned,

well, the thing I learned though was how to use my voice, you know, and I'm like, Kate how big are the classes now.

Kate Kabat (23:23)

I would say 50 to 70 people usually.

Katharine McLennan (23:26)

Yeah, so you have to learn how to speak, right? And get in there. yeah, okay. So we feel leadership. So Fran you built the business down in Florida then, right? Yep. What

Fran Sachs (23:37)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katharine McLennan (23:40)

Key lessons for somebody that might start a business in 30 years from now. Let's see if we said top two or three that come off your mind in growing a business.

Fran Sachs (23:51)

Your partner matters a tremendous amount and it's very similar to advice I would give as far as finding a spouse where you're not going to change people. Because I went into one business because I was excited by the idea. It was somebody else's idea.

Katharine McLennan (23:55)

Mm.

Okay.

Fran Sachs (24:14)

and I didn't like or trust the person, but I was so enamored of the idea that I thought that would be enough and I would be enough. And I was not. And that was a big learning, which is doesn't matter how good the idea is. Truthfully, you can do just about anything with the right partner. that is key lesson number one.

Katharine McLennan (24:36)

Yeah, okay.

You

Fran Sachs (24:43)

It's all about

people, everything I'm gonna tell you is about people. So that's lesson number one. And then key lesson number two is when you're hiring people, think that it, yes, they need to have a certain skill set level, but to me, it's much more about attitude and can do that kind of attitude where if they don't know how to do it, they're gonna figure out how to do it. And that's where.

Katharine McLennan (24:46)

Exactly!

Yeah. Yep.

Fran Sachs (25:07)

a hundred times more than someone that has every single characteristic on paper, but you know when push comes to shove, they're not necessarily going to do what needs to be done.

Katharine McLennan (25:16)

And that's something you learn over life, right? That's, that's, that's, I'm sorry.

Fran Sachs (25:19)

Yeah, yeah, because you're used

to you're used to looking at the resume and go, they went to this good school and they worked for that good company. They must be good. Not necessarily, you know, you know, and I love I love our credentials. We've got some awesome credentials, but you know, sometimes the scrappy person from the community college is the better hire.

Katharine McLennan (25:28)

Yeah, Yeah, exactly.

they're so good.

Yeah, absolutely. What was the business that you grew from and retired from?

Fran Sachs (25:47)

So the interior design, so that was the most successful of them, but I did a couple others. Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (25:50)

I, that's right. That's right. That's right. You did a couple of them. That's right.

Okay. So that is interesting. Now, let me add a couple of other things that came to mind when you were speaking about that is, okay, so we talked about Stanford support of the leadership, but Stanford seems to be supporting a lot of initiatives. One of the things, Kate, was the summer support that

they are doing for you. I was jealous of that. Talk a little bit about that.

Kate Kabat (26:22)

Yeah,

so I think there is a funding cap, but most people I think are able to get some. But effectively, if you want to work for a really small organization, like something like a startup that's not yet profitable or a social impact focused organization, so say like a nonprofit, like I was working for a like, independent from government, but created by government nonprofit this summer. So that type of organization, you can get

Fran Sachs (27:00)

That existed when we were there. Yeah. I don't think too many people took advantage of it, but it definitely existed.

Kate Kabat (26:51)

I guess up to $15,000 from Stanford to support you over the summer if they're not able to pay you anything. So it creates a lot more freedom.

Katharine McLennan (27:00)

What was our time? we did. OK. I didn't know that. I missed that.

Yeah, well, OK, so here's the thing. So Kate, just quickly describe the type of internship you go because I think it's also indicative of the changes that you did.

Kate Kabat (27:19)

Yeah,

so I worked at the Nevada Clean Energy Fund, which is a green bank for the state of Nevada. So it was set up by their state legislature in 2017, but didn't really get off the ground until a few years ago. And so effectively what it does is take in grant money from government, from either the federal government or like the state government, or potentially other organizations. And then...

Fran Sachs (27:39)

Okay.

Kate Kabat (27:44)

It does a mix of grant and below market rate loans to help promote clean energy in Nevada, especially among low income and disadvantaged communities. kind of the biggest, I guess, grant or initiative that they're working on so far is Solar for All. So they got $156 million grant from the federal government under the Inflation Reduction Act earlier this year. And so it's all going to help

create improved access to solar, and then savings on energy bills for local communities in Nevada. So we were figuring out kind of like how do you structure these like grants and loans and the repayments based on the energy profile to see how can you like allow households to get access to solar without having to field any upfront capital for it. So it was really neat. Yeah.

Fran Sachs (28:12)

.

Katharine McLennan (28:35)

that. That's awesome. That's

the cool thing about the Stanford also that really comes into with that initiative compared to Australia is the inter the interconnection between government or amongst government, the university sector and the private sector, so to speak. And now let's add social good. And it's incredible. Like that's one thing Stanford has always blown me away with how you do that.

Fran Sachs (28:57)

.

Katharine McLennan (29:00)

So yeah, gosh, what were you doing for your internship? Fran, what did you get up to? Your summer.

Fran Sachs (29:07)

I thought I was going to do marketing. I came to Stanford through finance, which I didn't really like. And then when I got to Stanford, I discovered marketing, which I thought was really cool. And so I did a summer at 

Katharine McLennan (29:09)

okay.

Fran Sachs (29:23)

I did brand classic brand management at Claro, yeah, and loved it. And I thought that that's what I was gonna do until we did this entrepreneurship class and we did the health club thing and yeah, changed everything.

Katharine McLennan (29:25)

I even remember that. I remember that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's very interesting. OK, so the other thing that is I find different, and I haven't been on campus, but the people, the small sample size and what you guys talk about your fellow students, Kate, let's just say they've widely diversified since we were there. And why don't you talk a little bit about your class, Kate, in terms of

what you notice about their characteristics, where they're from, that kind of thing.

Kate Kabat (30:03)

Yeah, I think it has diversified quite a bit. I will say, so I'm from Kentucky. I'm the only person in my class from Kentucky. And I think that at least amongst the Americans, we are dominated by the coastal elites. That might be a loaded phrase, but I think this little anecdote gives a good sense. So we do global study trips because you're required to have a global experience. I have managed to soak up

Katharine McLennan (30:23)

Yeah.

Kate Kabat (30:27)

A few more than my share. But so last year for spring break, I went to India to study kind of climate and business in India, which was super neat. There were 25 MBA ones in the group going. And then when in our first meeting, when we all went around and introduced ourselves and said where we were from, I realized that there were more people in that group from Seoul, South Korea than were from US states that didn't border the coast.

Katharine McLennan (30:35)

I'm out.

there you go. Wow. Wow. Wait

Kate Kabat (30:57)

Yeah, so we've got

Fran Sachs (30:58)

you

Kate Kabat (30:59)

quite a few international students which has been so fun for me personally to get to meet and learn about their home countries and learn so much from talking with them.

Katharine McLennan (30:59)

a minute. for mom.

Wow,

that's awesome. So you've done that and you just came back from Beijing and tell us again what the Beijing program was.

Kate Kabat (31:17)

So it's an exchange program where there are 20 students from Stanford and then 20 students from Tsinghua University, which is kind of a Stanford Pier in Beijing. And all MBAs who the Tsinghua students host us from Stanford for a week in the fall and take us to different Chinese companies and we get a few lectures from different Tsinghua professors and we do some cultural activities. So I mean, we did karaoke, which was very fun.

We had some dinners. We went to the Great Wall. Yeah. And then

Katharine McLennan (31:44)

In China! In China! Check. Check.

Kate Kabat (31:51)

in February, we will host the same group of Tsinghua students back on Stanford's campus doing similar types of activities, although with a different American cultural flavor.

Katharine McLennan (31:57)

Okay. Okay. Okay.

Fran Sachs (32:02)

you

Katharine McLennan (32:04)

I mean, that's amazing, Fran, I think. I were we going to... What do we remember? I don't remember any kind of exchange. I don't think we were traveling to China.

Fran Sachs (32:06)

This.

We did, there was one trip,

was this, think, a spring break, or winter break trip. There was definitely one. I didn't go, but.

Katharine McLennan (32:17)

Okay.

Okay, do we remember where it went?

No, I didn't go either. To China, you mean, Fran?

Fran Sachs (32:28)

think it was to India, maybe? But I think it changed. I think it changed every year. It wasn't like a set program. It changed where people were going.

Katharine McLennan (32:29)

To India, okay. Okay.

Gotcha. Okay.

Now, Kate, what's the percentage of female to male or, gosh, nowadays we have other characteristics, but I don't know. What do they say the gender mixes?

Kate Kabat (32:48)

It's close enough to even that I don't remember what it is. Yeah.

Fran Sachs (32:50)

Yeah! Why don't we eat?

Katharine McLennan (32:50)

Yeah, Yep. Yep.

Fran Sachs (32:54)

That's big.

Katharine McLennan (32:55)

It's, it is big, Fran. What were we, like a third? 30. Yeah, 30%. Yeah. So, and that was felt kind of, that's the way it is. what, are there gender conversations, Kate, that come up in the classrooms or between the classrooms?

Fran Sachs (32:59)

30 something. Yeah.

Kate Kabat (33:16)

I am trying to think. Not, honestly, yeah. Yeah, really not too many. So I was thinking about this a little bit around, probably around the same last year, is that I actually feel like there are not as many spaces for women's conversations because there are so many women. And so, or at least, you know, like I feel like the traditional flavors of that would be like balancing family and career.

Katharine McLennan (33:17)

The fact that you're trying to think. Yeah.

Fran Sachs (33:31)

Okay.

Kate Kabat (33:39)

Like how do you navigate potential sexism in the workplace? there's just really, I think like, for the most part, people think that those conversations should apply to everyone. know, like men should also be talking about balancing family and career. And, you know, that may mean that the conversation is lost a little bit. there are just so many kind of, yeah, it falls by the wayside. But I actually had more.

Fran Sachs (33:52)

Okay.

Katharine McLennan (34:00)

Yes.

Kate Kabat (34:05)

Yeah, conversations about being a woman in the workplace when I was working then at Stanford.

Katharine McLennan (34:11)

that's interesting, Kate. What's the, do you still have the women groups? Okay, so that's important. That was important to us, Fran, anyway. We didn't have that, I don't think. What was our reflections on gender? I don't know. We were just trying to support Emotionally.

Kate Kabat (34:16)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Fran Sachs (34:20)

Yeah.

Yeah,

had, well, we had the women's groups and then, yeah, I think that was definitely, those are more interpersonal than sort of career focused.

Katharine McLennan (34:38)

Yeah,

It's interesting to see the changes, Kate. 50-50 means there's not so many issues. I mean, until you probably get to the work world and that. But Kate, congratulations on getting married at the beginning of this year. that puts you, Fran, you had John, but you guys hadn't been married yet. It doesn't matter, right? Yeah, but you weren't living together at Stanford and neither is Kate.

Kate Kabat (34:53)

Thank you.

Fran Sachs (34:59)

Yeah.

No.

Katharine McLennan (35:04)

How does being together, well, what changes about being married, Kate? Anything as far as your experience with Stanford?

Kate Kabat (35:11)

No, although I'm kind of getting over this, but for the first couple of months I was feeling extremely old whenever I said the words my husband.

Fran Sachs (35:19)

Yes.

Kate Kabat (35:20)

I could just feel the gray hairs forming.

Fran Sachs (35:22)

So is he there with you? Yes, I was wondering.

Kate Kabat (35:25)

He is, yeah. Yeah, it's kind of funny because

Katharine McLennan (35:27)

He's not in the group.

Kate Kabat (35:28)

here's another probably gender change is that, yeah, so we're living, I think from talking with Kath this is a little bit of a change. Now most second year students will live off campus or quite a few at least. And so we have a couple of roommates, two other married couples and in all three couples, the woman is the student and the man has been dragged to California.

Katharine McLennan (35:40)

Yeah. Yeah.

You

Kate Kabat (35:51)

think, yeah, there's quite a few more, I think maybe there's probably more gender parity in terms of who is following who for their kind of career ambitions.

Katharine McLennan (36:01)

That's awesome. Because John didn't live with you, Fran. He was, you were saying, yeah, because you were saying about the fans. Yeah,

Fran Sachs (36:03)

No, he was he was in the East Coast. No, we had a long history.

Katharine McLennan (36:08)

yeah, gosh, it was, it was interesting. did, Fran, did you live off campus for the two years or?

Fran Sachs (36:10)

That's miserable.

Yeah, both here. I mean, there was no on campus. There was virtually no on campus. The first year I lived in downtown Palo Alto and then second year I lived in Los Altos

Katharine McLennan (36:18)

Of course there wasn't. Yeah, that's, yeah.

The other question, Kate is interesting to me as well. And Fran, we're all in the world on the precipice of artificial intelligence. Well, not even on the part we're in artificial intelligence. And I guess, in some ways,

too simply, you can compare that to the internet. But what are you seeing on the campus and in your classmates or even in your day-to-day experience, Kate, where you see some changes happening pretty quickly with AI?

Fran Sachs (36:51)

Okay.

Kate Kabat (36:53)

Well, everyone's using AI as an I'm sure very rarely as a means to escape learning topics that you're not interested in. But yeah, and everyone's really talking about how is this going to change the workplace. And people are very interested in doing AI startups. even, so, Fran, you made a point earlier around people matter so much. And it's all

about who you hire and who you're working with.

But then when I was in China last week, one of the professors at Tsinghua University was talking about AI and the future of organizations. And he was talking about how the structure will look very different in the age of AI. And so he thinks that flexible, adaptable people are going to be even more important. But at the same time, you might actually be running a bunch of different AIs. leaders are going to, they're not just going to be pure managers, they're also going to be doers.

Fran Sachs (37:22)

Okay.

Kate Kabat (37:43)

because of the higher efficiency you get with AI. So as you were kind of talking about how much people matter, I was thinking to myself, how is that gonna change now in this world of AI where you need fewer people and there will probably be different types of jobs that come up, every organization can be leaner and flatter.

Katharine McLennan (38:04)

yeah, it will be fascinating. Fran, are you using AI at all in your day-to-day experiences down there in Florida?

Fran Sachs (38:11)

So

as I was with the inception of the internet, I am about as adept with the inception of AI. John's actually very good at it. And we're definitely using it to be able to do things like doing proposals and things like that.

It really is, there's just a lot of sort of lower level stuff that you can just use in AI. the higher, I mean, I'm sure at some point it's gonna change, but the higher level stuff, you still, you need a human brain. just, but it's time saving. It's absolutely time saving. You know, it's just.

Katharine McLennan (38:41)

Yeah, you need a human brain. Let's hope.

Let's, yeah, let's hope

Kate Kabat (38:46)

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (38:47)

so.

Kate Kabat (38:48)

And even more than just the benefits, because I too probably lean late adopter. At least it feels so at Stanford. But I feel this sort of pressure to learn and get really good at using AI. Because I think, you know, while being at Stanford, my mindset has sort of shifted around it from it being like this thing where you're reading about all the potential downsides in the news to being

Fran Sachs (39:01)

Thank you.

Kate Kabat (39:11)

something that people talk about and you hear about and you're in Silicon Valley. And so all the cutting edge stuff is here. So you see how cool it can be and you see the potential and I've gotten much more excited about it. And I've also realized like I need to get with it. I need to get with the program and it's gonna be very important for me to be a good adept user of AI in order to be successful down the road.

Fran Sachs (39:17)

Thank you.

Okay.

Katharine McLennan (39:34)

Okay, so it's interesting, Kate. So what about the day-to-day experience of AI in the classroom and writing papers and all that? are people using it or what's the, okay.

Kate Kabat (39:44)

yeah. Yeah. And so I think last year, the administration was not fully embracing that.

This year, I think they've become savvier about it. And so now, basically, what's sort of allowed or encouraged is to use AI on most assignments, really, and you just sort of have to cite that you used it. So I'll give you an example. I'm in this class on the Chinese financial system and economy, which I took.

you know, trying to prep and learn a little bit more ahead of my trip to China last week. But I had to do a big research paper and I use perplexity to like summarize a bunch of sources and do a lot of the research for me. And then I was just able to cite this is how I use perplexity and then here are their underlying sources and I spot checked here and there. And then yet people are using it to make slides. Although I think

Fran Sachs (40:17)

Yeah.

Kate Kabat (40:37)

Humans are still better than at least the free AI tools on slides. then, yeah, but then in terms of like your first year core classes where it's the content that like it's a core required curriculum because they believe like everyone needs to know these things, which makes sense, know, accounting, basics of finance, all of that type of thing. They've switched in-person exams so that you can't use chat GPT or some other AI tool to do your exam for you.

Katharine McLennan (40:40)

Yep. Yep. Yep.

Yep. Yep.

Fran Sachs (40:56)

Okay.

Katharine McLennan (41:02)

Okay.

Kate Kabat (41:03)

which was very possible last year when you were taking things.

Katharine McLennan (41:04)

Okay. Because you have what? You have a lot of exams that are not in person.

Kate Kabat (41:09)

Yeah, I think that's now changing, but it was a COVID change. And so then my class, I think, is the last class that really had many take-home exams. the first quarter, all of our classes had in-person exams, I think, as far as I can remember. And then last year, well, here's more around the travel and the more global class that we have. Ahead of my trip to India, it was finals week, but then

Fran Sachs (41:10)

That's crazy talk.

Katharine McLennan (41:14)

COVID.

Kate Kabat (41:36)

Almost everyone's going on one of these trips to some location over the world. And we all had these take-home finals or a few papers maybe or projects or something that we had to complete. And so everyone just went and traveled somewhere a week early. So I was like taking my finals from Dubai, which my parents, having gone to college in the 80s, were horrified by. But it was very common.

Katharine McLennan (41:41)

Yeah.

Fran Sachs (41:53)

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (41:56)

as you do.

That is hilarious.

Fran Sachs (42:03)

Okay.

Katharine McLennan (42:03)

Taking your Stanford Business School exam in Dubai. Yep. That just says it.

Kate Kabat (42:06)

Yeah, yeah, I think that's

we get a

Katharine McLennan (42:09)

I'm just remembering the blue books we had to take in.

Fran Sachs (42:12)

Blue books. Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (42:13)

Yeah, and like, you know, right. my God, it's hilarious. well.

Fran Sachs (42:18)

Well, but I think you're going

back to that, right? Because they want everything handwritten so that it's not AI generated.

Kate Kabat (42:24)

Yeah, or now at least in the law school, and I don't know what it's like, because I'm taking a few classes in the law school, so I do have in-person exams there. But you have the special software on your computer that can lock you out of basically whatever parameters the professor sets. So you can know internet and notes only on your computer if you have it, or the readings, or just absolutely nothing in just that exam window.

Fran Sachs (42:37)

everything else.

Katharine McLennan (42:47)

Yeah, yeah, so that's that'll

be interesting, Kate. So the embracing of AI at Stanford could be reflective of how we are going to change. they're OK at letting you use the right papers as long as you're citing. The other thing that came up in a conversation was, and I don't know about this, but you were saying because of all that and all of the activities that you guys are doing, the academic

Fran Sachs (42:52)

Thank

Right.

Katharine McLennan (43:13)

What did we say, Kate? had to talk that.

Kate Kabat (43:14)

I feel like people are a little less academically focused. So I mean, my sense, because we hear a little bit about like, the GSB used to be really hard academically

true. I mean, some people are very focused on academics and are really going above and beyond in all their classes. overall, I think if people are interested in the topic, then they're excited about it and they're going to do.

Katharine McLennan (43:23)

No.

Fran Sachs (43:33)

Okay.

Kate Kabat (43:34)

a lot of work for the class. But then it feels because of the grade non-disclosure that if you're not interested in the class and you happen to be taking it, then people kind of do the bare minimum. And so, just from the anecdotes of what I've heard from some professors or lecturers

who are GSB grads, it seems like that has changed a little bit.

Fran Sachs (43:52)

So.

Kate Kabat (43:56)

Because people are a little bit more, I'm here at Stanford to pursue my interests and the MBA is kind of the vehicle for that, less the place where I'm gonna go. I mean, for some people it is, like for me I wanted to come and learn accounting and finance and all that stuff really well. But yeah, I think a lot of people are, entrepreneurship, so they're here to

Katharine McLennan (44:12)

Yep. Because you were environmental.

Kate Kabat (44:17)

absorb all of that.

Katharine McLennan (44:17)

Yeah.

Fran Sachs (44:18)

So

I'll throw something at you in regards to So I don't remember which professor it was, but he was talking about the difference between that other business school on the East Coast and Stanford. And he said that there, everybody would just be like bragging about like how much work they were doing and how hard it was and all the work. And then he said, I can't remember.

Katharine McLennan (44:20)

Yeah, yeah, go for it.

That's all right. Yeah.

Fran Sachs (44:43)

what the analogy was for them. But the analogy for Stanford students were swans. And that we're just gliding along on the water, and what you don't see is underneath, paddling, seriously paddling. And so I wonder if that's what's going on there. Because that certainly was going on in our class. And there were definitely some folks that didn't take it as seriously, but I...

Katharine McLennan (44:49)

Yeah.

you

Fran Sachs (45:09)

there was definitely a culture around looking like you weren't working too.

Katharine McLennan (45:14)

Yeah, that is true.

Kate Kabat (45:15)

Yeah, they talk around

that, yeah, for Sanford more broadly and not just for the GSB. Although we've been downgraded from swans to ducks, Swans does sound nicer.

Fran Sachs (45:22)

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (45:23)

Yeah, we may have been ducks.

Fran Sachs (45:24)

been ducked. Swans sounded better.

Katharine McLennan (45:27)

It's funny

because the way you guys talk about all the activities you do, I mean, all the students do going internationally, getting involved with other degrees. We definitely had some double degrees, I would be challenged to choose between how much I studied and how much I got involved with all these initiatives. They're fantastic.

Kate Kabat (45:52)

That is indeed the dilemma. People are constantly trying to figure out how to optimize their experience. think also because, I don't know, we all feel such a gratitude to be at Stanford. Yeah, it's such an incredible place and there's so many amazing opportunities that everyone that they let in wants to just soak it all up because you know it's like you've got the limited two years and you're trying to take advantage as much as possible.

Katharine McLennan (45:53)

You

in that.

Kate Kabat (46:16)

And so then there's definitely some decision paralysis. One thing that I'm trying to implement my second year is making decisions more quickly and not thinking about, what about this and that and all the pros and cons and everything, because it's hard to say that there's gonna be a bad decision on what you do.

at least when you're deciding how you'll spend two hours in the afternoon.

Fran Sachs (46:32)

No, that's true. Yeah. Yes.

Katharine McLennan (46:34)

True. so Fran, looking

back 30 years, either a question, like if we are talking to Kate, I mean, number one, I've been talking to her and I go, she's the one that's going to have to advise me. if we were to advise or attempt to advise, you talked a little bit about the people, matters about the people and everything. But if we if we had two or three things.

to say maybe that we wish we had learned 30 years ago and we hope that they learn it faster or anything that's reflective in terms of sharing

wisdom, what would you say?

Fran Sachs (47:06)

Well, one of my pieces of advice in the sound security doing it, is, and again, it's about the people, is that when you're at school, do everything. I think that I was a little bit more focused on feeling like I had to learn and perform, and I wish I had spent a little bit more time just going out.

Katharine McLennan (47:24)

BAM, BAM.

Fran Sachs (47:28)

you know, just hanging with people and spending time with people. But it sounds like you're doing that already.

Katharine McLennan (47:28)

Me too.

Fran Sachs (47:34)

You know, there's, in particularly, I do college advising, or not advising, but I do, do interviewing, alumni interviewing. And this is something that I always tell them, but I think it's pertinent even when you're a little bit older, but I tell them about getting into school. Like even if you don't get into the school we're interviewing for, you're gonna be fine. And it's the same thing, like,

Katharine McLennan (47:56)

you

Fran Sachs (47:57)

Like the job that you pick or like that first thing seems like it's everything. And there's so much weight to make the right choice and the right company. Like, what are you, are you going to, blah, blah, blah. And you're so talented that you're going to be fine. So, you know, yes, make a decision, pick one. And if it doesn't work out.

Katharine McLennan (48:20)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Fran Sachs (48:26)

 move on because when you look at our class, Kath, and you look at, when we came back for the five-year reunion, like, I think I was one of a handful that was still at the same company. Like, everybody changes. And so it's okay. So yes, like, don't just pick willy-nilly, but you're not going do that anyway. That's not who you are. But just pick one. You'll be okay.

Katharine McLennan (48:30)

Yeah.

Exactly. That's right. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know about Fran. can like, I think I've lost count of all my business failures and personal failures. does it? I mean, it's like the first one that came along, I was just devastated. mean, how could I possibly be asked to leave? My God, you know, like the whole thing is, it was just traumatic. you know, anyway, so what

Fran Sachs (49:00)

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (49:15)

What Kate, what would you most want us to know as we get into our, most of us are starting to enter sixties or just getting close anyway. Yeah, yeah. Just picture your parents. Okay. No way. No way. No, I'm waiting for you guys to advise us on what, you know, what to do with this environment, what to do with this new world.

Kate Kabat (49:25)

I hadn't considered this. Yeah, no, I thought the vice giving only goes one way.

Fran Sachs (49:38)

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (49:43)

I mean, eesh. But yeah, what do you think Kate?

Kate Kabat (49:45)

Yeah.

I mean, this is maybe not quite advice, but just something that I've been thinking about is like, well, while you're at Stanford, everything feels super possible and you feel like you're kind of on like the cutting edge. And I think, I don't know, I get the sense that once you're older, you're like, got, you know, however many more years, like Fran, think you said at the start of our conversation that like, this is the last go around with this business you're working on with your husband.

Fran Sachs (49:59)

Mm-hmm.

Katharine McLennan (50:12)

Yes, you did.

Yes, you did.

Kate Kabat (50:15)

And so I

think like there's still a lot of possibility. Like people are living longer and longer. Things are changing so quickly. It seems like, I don't know, the one thing that I feel like I have right now and don't want to lose, although I'm sure it will happen to me as the busyness of life takes over, but it's just like this sense of possibility and like the sense that you can do anything really.

Katharine McLennan (50:35)

Bye.

Fran Sachs (50:37)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (50:37)

That was kind of Fran's point, right? Like I'm so glad you have that Kate, cause Fran you were saying go for it and don't be afraid to fail of course. Yeah, that's awesome Kate. Cause in our

world Fran, I totally relate to you about studying too much. I mean, I'm so fortunate that I lived in a house with four other amazing women. And I'm sure Fran you keep up with everybody. I see photos on Facebook, my God.

Fran Sachs (51:02)

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (51:05)

How often are you talking to people? I'm getting jealous. Yeah, yeah. You still have

Fran Sachs (51:08)

Not often enough. often enough. A lot of texting, not talking.

Katharine McLennan (51:13)

and it's evident that the most, well, Fran, speaking for myself, the most important outcome of Stanford is the long relationships that are phenomenal. And with you guys, that's why I kind of was motivated to do these because

You can have a Stanford, lot of, Fran, you were just talking about the technology founders that we had in our class, but from such a small number of people, and especially as you guys go all over the world, Kay, actually that small number of people, number one, because it's small, it has enormous power through their network. And I was just curious to see what you guys are focusing on. And isn't it fantastic, the climate?

Fran Sachs (51:46)

Okay.

Katharine McLennan (51:56)

trying to learn how to bring government and the technology and the economy together. I feel really optimistic. and politics too. I've met a few of your

classmates that were really trying to get involved in maybe not exactly what the current administration or the next administration is doing, but behind the scenes and really trying to get involved with getting some good policy out there. So yeah.

And Married Life, Kate, as we wind up the conversation, Fran, How long have you guys been married, Fran?

Fran Sachs (52:33)

We've been married for 24, almost 25 years and we're together for 32.

Katharine McLennan (52:37)

Mm-hmm.

that's awesome. Congratulations on that. So, and that's a whole nother book.

Fran Sachs (52:47)

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (52:48)

as Kate starts out. Kate, how long have you guys been together before you got married? fantastic. well, hey, thanks. You guys, really, I so enjoy it. It's been a really cool hour and anybody want to close out the conversation? How about both of you kind of make some concluding comments and then we'll jump off.

Kate Kabat (52:51)

like four years?

Fran Sachs (53:08)

Kate go ahead.

Katharine McLennan (53:10)

Your turn.

Kate Kabat (53:10)

Okay.

Yeah, I guess, thank you for this. It's been super interesting. I really enjoy kind of the compare and contrast and see, I feel like there are so many things that are the same, even though the world around has shifted quite a bit. Yeah, but even just like you mentioned that everyone in your class is really focused on the social good. I think that is broadly true here with our classes as well.

Katharine McLennan (53:24)

Yeah.

Kate Kabat (53:38)

And yeah, and I think a lot of the pieces of advice that you hear, they're very common threads around the people and just figure it out. It'll be okay. Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (53:45)

Yeah.

You're not just failing

out. Yeah, and Kate, you know, and then I'll let Fran kind of conclude, the, you know, and I'm sure you realize, but you can call any class of Stanford Business School anywhere. And these days, of course, we didn't have like LinkedIn and everything, but also if you do decide or can or want to have children,

Fran Sachs (54:05)

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (54:12)

For me, was a great, let's call it a re-entry visa that didn't mean I had to show continuity of da-da-da-da-da. So Fran, why don't you conclude? Because otherwise I'll talk all day.

Fran Sachs (54:21)

I'm gonna so I'm gonna conclude a little story because that's what old people do So I think it was in two different classes we had to write our own obituaries and To a person They were almost all the same structure Which was I'm gonna go out and make a gazillion dollars doing X. So X was different for everybody

Katharine McLennan (54:26)

Yes, yes, great.

wow.

Fran Sachs (54:46)

The gazillion dollars was the same for everybody. And I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna be the world's best philanthropist in Y, whatever Y was. And what's really interesting is that, see now you go back to reunions and everything, and no, not everybody earned a gazillion dollars, but those that have certainly are doing that already. And those that haven't are,

Katharine McLennan (54:46)

Yep. Yep.

then.

Yep. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Fran Sachs (55:13)

doing a portion of that. And so I think that particularly, I mean, your class going in, it sounds like, is going to start with that. So how you're going to end is going to be even more interesting.

Katharine McLennan (55:16)

Yep. Yep.

Yeah,

Katharine McLennan (55:27)

For more insights and information, visit my website at katharinemclennan.com That's K-A-T-H-A-R-I-N-E-M-C-L-E-N-N-A-N.com.

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