Podcast Ep. 11 Stanford MBA ’95 Kathy Sarlson meets MBA ’25 Andrew Lobel

Today, I’m joined by Kathy Sarlson from the Stanford MBA Class of 1995 and Andrew Lobel from the Class of 2025.

Kathy is the National Director of Life & Legacy, a philanthropic initiative helping Jewish organizations across North America build endowments through legacy giving. With over 35 years of nonprofit leadership, she’s helped raise tens of millions of dollars in planned gifts while strengthening Jewish community institutions in healthcare, housing, and education. She holds degrees from the University of Michigan, Harvard Divinity School, and Stanford GSB.

 Andrew is a second-year MBA student at Stanford and the current president of the Jewish Business Students Association. Before business school, he worked in private equity at New Mountain Capital and will join Avesi Partners after graduation. A Harvard graduate, Andrew brings a long-standing commitment to Jewish leadership, community service, and deep, reflective dialogue. 

 Together, we explored how Jewish identity shapes leadership, workplace culture, and moral courage in times of global and personal uncertainty. From the aftermath of October 7th, 2023, and its impact on Jewish communities worldwide, to the evolving role of business leaders in complex social debates, Kathy and Andrew reflect across three decades of Stanford experience—offering a generational handoff of purpose, resilience, and the power of authentic conversation.

Chapters:

00:00 Andrew's Background and Jewish Identity

05:44 Kathy's Journey and Activism History

09:32 Responses to Recent Events and Campus Climate

14:15 Contrasting Experiences at Stanford and GSB

17:51 University Responses to Political Events

21:33 Lessons from Harvard and Facilitation Skills

23:44 Conversations on Anti-Semitism and Institutional Responses

26:06 The Role of Personal Experiences in Advocacy

27:28 Building Compassionate Conversations

30:02 The Importance of Empathy in Difficult Discussions

31:42 Aligning Personal and Organizational Values

33:26 Navigating Workplace Dynamics and Values

35:37 Bringing Spirituality into the Workplace

39:25 Creating Meaningful Team Connections

41:12 Future Aspirations and Authenticity in Career Choices

44:59 Generational Perspectives on Activism

47:23 Encouraging Engagement and Activism in Youth

50:03 Balancing Career and Family Values

52:00 The Value of Meaningful Conversations

Join the Podcast Series
Stanford MBA: From Baby Boomer to Gen Z | Class of ‘95 Meets Class of ‘25

Each of these episodes will feature a different pair of Stanford MBA people -- one from the class of 1995, and one from the class of 2025.

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📺 Also available on YouTube:
Entire series playlist:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSaVisoF0D_GKxVmHmakNxdpAJCb5_VTP

More info: https://www.katharinemclennan.com/

Contact: kath@katharinemclennan.com

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katharinemclennan/

Chapters

• 0:00 Andrew's Background and Jewish Identity
• 5:44 Kathy's Journey and Activism History
• 9:32 Responses to Recent Events and Campus Climate
• 14:15 Contrasting Experiences at Stanford and GSB
• 17:51 University Responses to Political Events
• 21:33 Lessons from Harvard and Facilitation Skills
• 23:44 Conversations on Anti-Semitism and Institutional Responses
• 26:06 06 The Role of Personal Experiences in Advocacy
• 27:28 Building Compassionate Conversations
• 30:02 The Importance of Empathy in Difficult Discussions
• 31:42 Aligning Personal and Organizational Values
• 33:26 Navigating Workplace Dynamics and Values
• 35:37 Bringing Spirituality into the Workplace
• 39:25 Creating Meaningful Team Connections
• 41:12 Future Aspirations and Authenticity in Career Choices
• 44:59 Generational Perspectives on Activism
• 47:23 23 Encouraging Engagement and Activism in Youth
• 50:03 Balancing Career and Family Values
• 52:00 The Value of Meaningful Conversations

Transcript

Today I'm joined by Kathy Salson from the Stanford MBA class of 1995 and Andrew Lobel from the class of 2025. Kathy is a National Director of Life and Legacy, a philanthropic initiative helping Jewish organizations across North America build endowments through legacy giving. With over 35 years of nonprofit leadership, she's helped to raise tens of millions of dollars in planned gifts.

while strengthening Jewish community institutions in health care, housing, and education. She holds degrees from the University of Michigan, Harvard Divinity School, and Stanford Graduate School of Business. Andrew is a second year MBA student at Stanford and the current president of the Jewish Business Students Association.

Before business school, he worked in private equity at New Mountain Capital and will join Avizi Partners after graduation. A Harvard graduate, Andrew brings a longstanding commitment to Jewish leadership, community service, and deep reflective dialogue. Together, we explored how Jewish identity shapes leadership, workplace culture, and moral courage in times of global and personal uncertainty.

From the aftermath of October 7th, 2023, and its impact on Jewish communities worldwide, to the evolving role of business leaders in complex social debates, Kathy and Andrew reflect across three decades of Stanford experience, offering a generational handoff of purpose, resilience, and the power of authentic conversation.

Katharine McLennan (02:51)

it's so nice to see you guys and this hour who knows what will come up, but we've been having some fascinating conversations with some of your classmates and my classmates of which Kathy is. So Andrew, where do we find you on this fine, what is it over there, Tuesday?

Andrew Lobel (03:09)

You find me in very high spirits. I'm right off of campus and the house that my wife and I live in in college terrace. And I had class this morning with Glenn Craneman, winning writing. He's the former managing editor of the New York times. is. Unbelievable. It is a really fantastic class. Highly recommend. And then it's been a great day. I did some errands, did some final assignments, went to the driving range, like a good GSB student should.

Katharine McLennan (03:15)

testing.

Kathy Sarlson (03:23)

Wow. Fantastic.

Katharine McLennan (03:26)

my gosh. Yeah, you think?

Andrew Lobel (03:38)

had some meetings and here we are.

Katharine McLennan (03:38)

Love that.

fantastic, Andrea. And Kathy, where are we? Are you, to be specific?

Kathy Sarlson (03:45)

So

right at this very moment, I am in lovely Springfield, Massachusetts. So I'm about 10 minutes away from the international headquarters of the foundation that I work for, which is in a very small town. And although I'm based outside of Philadelphia, I try to come up here every four to six weeks just to spend some time in the office with my colleagues there.

Katharine McLennan (03:59)

Okay.

And Kathy this is a new one i think a new adventure tell us a little bit about that cuz i think i didn't even get to hear it but i thought yeah.

Kathy Sarlson (04:18)

Sure.

Yeah, of course. I'll tell you a little bit about it and how I got there. So I've been at this family foundation for about a year now. And the focus of the foundation is about really building and sustaining vibrant Jewish, joyful Jewish life and their flagship

program is one that focuses literacy and sending Jewish books to, they're literally sending out millions of books a year all over the world to Jewish kids. And on top of that, doing a lot of family engagement projects. So it's really about giving people the experience, the joy of living Jewishly and

Katharine McLennan (04:51)

No way.

Kathy Sarlson (05:05)

They also have a few other projects. I'm the national director of a project in which we provide grant funding and consulting services to help Jewish organizations really learn how to do fundraising and specifically how to build out their own endowment funds so that they'll be here for the future. So that's the project that I'm working on.

Katharine McLennan (05:24)

for the future.

And Kathy, that's a long career of 30 years of doing amazing things for organizations and leading them, which we might hear from. But Andrew, you go to touch with me because you are, what do they say, the president of the, fill that in. Yeah. Did you? I didn't even know. I didn't even know what you were president.

Andrew Lobel (05:44)

The Jewish Business Students Association, the JBSA, I know it's a handful.

Kathy Sarlson (05:47)

I did that.

I did that too. Yeah.

I was.

Katharine McLennan (05:54)

there you go. thought, yeah, cool.

Andrew Lobel (05:54)

No way! That's really cool. One

of my questions I wanted to ask you was whether the JBSA existed back then and to what extent, at all, you were involved. So this is real

Kathy Sarlson (06:01)

Sure did.

Katharine McLennan (06:01)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kathy Sarlson (06:04)

I

I'm just glad to hear that it still exists. And the way I got to this job is, I think, relevant to that. If it's okay, I'll just throw that in. Which is, I've been working in fundraising for over 35 years. I was working for nonprofits before I came to the GSB.

Katharine McLennan (06:14)

Please, please Kathy.

you were.

Kathy Sarlson (06:26)

my last position, I was, AVP of plan giving an endowments for a large academic medical center in Philly. I was planning on staying there till I retired or did something else. And then October 7th happened and I had worked in the Jewish community previously, and I felt really strongly pulled to go back and also a bit of a push in that. I felt very out of place.

where I was working and didn't feel like there was the space for many of us to talk about what was happening or what we were experiencing. And as it happened a week later, I got a call from this foundation. So I'm like, okay, I'm going.

Katharine McLennan (06:54)

Hmm.

Mm. Mm.

What was

the timing? Just coincidental, Kathy, or were they looking to really ramp up and get somebody superstar like you?

Kathy Sarlson (07:17)

well, that's kind of you. it, it, was accidental, unless we think like it was serendipity, but they, the person who had run the program for many years was ready to retire from doing that. And so they recruited me and, yeah, it's, it's been a big change. Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (07:19)

You're welcome.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was pretty straightforward.

Andrew Lobel (07:38)

Kathy, if I may say,

Katharine McLennan (07:38)

OK, yeah, go, Andrew.

Andrew Lobel (07:40)

I'm sorry you felt the way you did at your prior employer at the same time hearing you describe how October 7th was a pivotal moment for you gave me goosebumps and it really resonated. I I mean, for me, my wife, my whole family, so many in our community, October 7th was a gigantic point in the history of the Jewish people and your story, it really touched me.

Kathy Sarlson (07:52)

Mmm.

Yeah, I'm glad to hear.

Katharine McLennan (08:06)

Oh, Andrew, tell me,

and one of the things you mentioned, Andrew, in the note is when I asked people what they wanted to talk about, you did want to talk about the campus and the environment on the campus. And I'd love to hear it. I'm sure Kathy would, because I'll come back to Kathy at that time. Anyway, let's hear about 30 years later, and then we'll go back 30 years.

Andrew Lobel (08:19)

Yes?

Sure, and I'll give some basic back of the baseball card stats about myself just for context. yeah, so I'm from New York City. The Big Apple was born and raised on the Upper East Side, and my family would identify as modern Orthodox. So we observed the Sabbath, we eat kosher food, we observe all the Jewish holidays. I went to a Jewish day school called Ramaz, and that basically means we were in school from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. Half of the day was regular math, science, history.

Katharine McLennan (08:36)

Please. Please. Yes, please! That too!

Okay.

Whoa!

Andrew Lobel (09:04)

English, all the good stuff. And then the other half of the day was Hebrew language, know, the Hebrew Bible, Jewish law, Jewish thought. And so it was really a dual curriculum. And the day started at 8 a.m. with services. We had afternoon services. The school was observant in its, you know, in its practice as well. So that's where I'm coming from. I was very involved in my synagogue growing up. I credit my parents for being incredible role models. I have two older sisters who are also incredible role models.

Katharine McLennan (09:15)

fantastic.

Andrew Lobel (09:31)

And I think that being part of the Jewish people has been so enriching for my life. think that, you know, we were raised with this belief that we are one link in a chain that goes back thousands of years. And there's been a lot of challenge that comes with that. October 7th is certainly a prime example, but there's also tremendous, there's a lot of gratitude that I feel and a lot of, I think a lot of goodness and enrichment to my own life that's come from being

Katharine McLennan (09:43)

Absolutely.

Andrew Lobel (09:57)

part of the extended Jewish community. So that's a little bit about my Jewish identity. After I graduated high school, I went to Harvard. I was very involved in Jewish life there. I was on the leadership teams of the Chabad there and of the Hillel at Harvard. And I'm actually on the board of directors of Harvard Hillel to this day, which is something I felt passionately about in terms of giving back to a community that gave so much to me when I was an undergrad. I studied history and economics, which I absolutely loved.

Katharine McLennan (10:02)

Wow.

there.

Hmm.

Andrew Lobel (10:24)

My senior year thesis was on the financial panic of 1792, which is not the most well-known one, but...

Katharine McLennan (10:31)

What?

That's fit. I'm a history major, so you bring it on, Andrew.

Kathy Sarlson (10:32)

scare.

Andrew Lobel (10:34)

Yes.

There you go, so I can send you my thesis. It's a fun one. Great, we can do a sequel podcast all about the crash of 1792. Exactly, so.

Katharine McLennan (10:39)

I love it, I love it. Look, that is so cool.

Kathy Sarlson (10:44)

There you go. Nice.

Katharine McLennan (10:45)

I'd love to, I'd love to. So,

and how does one go from there? Now I did biology as my second, so your economics. Did you, what was the in between your Harvard and Stanford?

Andrew Lobel (10:59)

So in between

was finance. I was always interested in business and finance and I did the tried and true path of investment banking at Credit Suisse when it was still around. And then I worked at, exactly, then I worked at a private equity firm called New Mountain Capital based in New York City and it was a tremendous learning experience. And at the same time, I thought to myself, God willing, I will have a long career when I'm 70 years old, looking back, taking two years to...

Katharine McLennan (11:08)

Yep. Before it was, yep.

Andrew Lobel (11:26)

meet new people, try new things, gain new skills will only be accretive to my professional life and my personal life. So apply to business school, yes.

Katharine McLennan (11:34)

Andrew?

well, yeah, keep going. I'm just reminding you that we're hovering around 60 and still young. Just telling you. OK, keep going. Keep going.

Kathy Sarlson (11:44)

hahahaha

Andrew Lobel (11:44)

Yes, exactly. So all

that to say, I applied to business school, was incredibly fortunate to be accepted to Stanford. And the fact that my wife and I had no friends or family in the Bay Area was a feature, not a flaw. We were excited to go on an adventure and here we are.

Katharine McLennan (11:56)

Yay!

Kathy Sarlson (12:00)

See you.

Katharine McLennan (12:01)

So okay, Kathy, let's go back 30 years then and we can talk about anything, but I because of the two of you, I would just love to talk about the activism and the issues we've seen. So take us 30 years back. know, we're starting 1993, finishing 95 interesting time to be in Silicon Valley. We had to do various projects and I have this little company called, I think there was like hundred people called Cisco.

not to look at their culture. so it was an interesting time. The year we graduated was the year that the internet really took off the browser with Netscape. But by the by, mean, Cathy, take us 30 years ago into what your passion was and almost how that links up to the work you're doing today.

Kathy Sarlson (12:51)

Sure. So I guess to go back a few steps even before that, it's funny, I have three adult children now. And so whenever they've meandered, I'm very patient because I completely meandered throughout most of my studies and my career. I went to college at University of Michigan thinking I was going to go into education.

Katharine McLennan (12:56)

Yep. Yep.

Kathy Sarlson (13:17)

And then I ended up becoming a psychology major and then I became a religion major. And then I went to Harvard divinity school. So I also spent a little time at Harvard and, and studied theology just cause, and really enjoyed my time there. And right after that, started working for a nonprofit. moved to the Bay area completely on a whim with no job. And I ended up working at the San Francisco AIDS foundation and

Katharine McLennan (13:27)

my goodness.

Just because.

Kathy Sarlson (13:46)

I sort of faced this crossroads where I thought, well, maybe I'll keep working for the nonprofit sector, but maybe there's something for me in the for-profit. So I actually went to Stanford just to figure that out. And my summer internship was at a tiny little software company. had a opportunity with Intuit, but it was just gonna be all like numbers crunching. So this, was able to help make the store displays

Katharine McLennan (13:58)

Mm.

Kathy Sarlson (14:13)

You know, was very hands-on and I liked that, but I had no passion for software. So I decided when I finished and I got the, I guess it was the PMP and the certificate in nonprofit management and took some really good classes on that, that I really was going to remain in the nonprofit sector. And we moved to Philly and I worked at our local Jewish Federation and other, organizations, but

Katharine McLennan (14:25)

Yeah.

Kathy Sarlson (14:39)

I think when I was there, it really wasn't about the activism. It was more social and it was important to me to have a network of other Jewish students. So, you know, so we have this Jewish business students group and we did social activities and I met my kid's dad through that because he was the co-leader of the Jewish law students group. you know, it was some potluck at a professor's house on campus.

Katharine McLennan (14:45)

Mm.

Mm. Mm.

No way!

Fantastic!

You're gonna love

it. You're gonna love it.

Kathy Sarlson (15:09)

so, you know, that's in part, I'm sure what it was designed for. And, yeah. So, but I would say that as a college student at Michigan, I was more of an activist and there are a lot of marches I went on. And so my experience in that way actually informs the perspective I have, which may seem controversial that I look with some concern about how do we respond to.

Katharine McLennan (15:13)

Yeah.

Mm. Mm.

Kathy Sarlson (15:38)

activism on campus today and where's the line that it crosses when it becomes destructive and dangerous and harmful, but I would hate to live in an environment where college students are never allowed to be activists or protest anything. So that's something I really grapple with right now.

Katharine McLennan (15:57)

Meh. Yeah.

Kathy Sarlson (16:03)

and I have to say, sorry, I have to say like I, and from a distance after October 7th, seeing some of the images of graffiti on the Stanford campus, there were things that I saw that I found so disturbing, and yet challenged to figure out a response and, and also being an alum of Harvard as you are, being absolutely horrified by Harvard's initial response.

Katharine McLennan (16:03)

So here, go Kathy.

Andrew Lobel (16:28)

my five-year college reunion was last year and it spring and there were, well, just like I was moving out of my door, moving into the apartment I was going to live in over the summer in San Francisco, but I also distinctly remember feeling

that I had absolutely no interest in stepping foot on Harvard's campus after what had been unfolding since October 7th. And I actually thought it was important to tell my friends that and tell the people in my class at the GSB who were going back that that's how I felt. I really do feel at the same time a lot of gratitude for what my Harvard education taught me. And my roommates at Harvard walked down the aisle at my wedding as groomsmen. So I do have a lot of gratitude there.

Kathy Sarlson (16:53)

Mm. Yeah.

wonderful.

Andrew Lobel (17:10)

I think to your point about where's the red line, something that I really struggled with is one, where's the red line when people are calling for violence against Jewish students or the dismantling of the settler colonial state as many different chalking said in White Plaza last year. And also, I I took when I was at Harvard so many, what's the word I'm looking for? Trainings about what language I'm a lot of use to refer to different people in different populations and...

Kathy Sarlson (17:20)

Absolutely. 

Andrew Lobel (17:38)

harassment training and bullying training. And this was something that was really ingrained in us. And then seemingly when the language is targeting Jewish students or Israeli students, those standards no longer apply. And so the double standard is what was really troubling. And of course you could say the climax was when Claudine Gay testified in front of Congress that calling for the genocide of people is really context dependent. So

Those were some of the challenges I was also grappling with.

Kathy Sarlson (18:07)

for sure.

Katharine McLennan (18:08)

So you specifically don't go to your Harvard, which makes so serious sense. So what happens then on Stanford? how do you express what's going on in your heart and your mind, Andrew?

Andrew Lobel (18:25)

I, well, I should say that about Stanford, it's a tale of two cities. There's Stanford University, and then there's the GSB. And the GSB for the most part has been the most supportive, inclusive, and warm community to myself and other Jewish and Israeli students and faculty here. One anecdote is the week after October 7th, there was a dinner that was held in solidarity with victims and Jewish and Israeli students. And I think over 300 people from the GSB attended, which was

Katharine McLennan (18:30)

Okay. Okay.

fantastic.

Andrew Lobel (18:53)

students, faculty, administrators, which is a tremendous showing. were first-person testimonies from Israelis about what they had seen. There were Israelis who had to fly back to Israel because they were called up to reserve duty, who were zooming in from their base talking about the truly horrifying things that they saw. And there's not a dry eye in the room. you know, yeah, so I'll say at the GSB, I think we like to think that around

Kathy Sarlson (19:06)

Of

Katharine McLennan (19:14)

I don't have a dry eye right now.

Andrew Lobel (19:21)

10 % of the class or so is Jewish, so about 40 people per year in a class of 420. And so if you think of a room of 350 people, the vast majority of whom are not Jewish and are allies, so to speak, that was, I think to me really captures the essence of the GSB. And a lot of that is the credit of the administrators, the people here obviously, the admissions committee. And then the flip side is Stanford University was really hard. And I think for many GSB students, as I'm sure you all are,

Kathy Sarlson (19:30)

Wow.

Andrew Lobel (19:49)

are well aware, campus is huge. So White Plaza, for some, is like a 15 to 20 minute walk away. And unless you are really dying to buy a notebook or a coffee mug from the Stanford bookstore, you might never have a reason to really walk there. Which is a that means for many people they weren't really aware of what was going on. And then every now and then I'd have a friend reach out to me and say, dude, have you seen what's going on in White Plaza?

Kathy Sarlson (19:51)

Yes.

you

Right.

Katharine McLennan (20:05)

make

Andrew Lobel (20:14)

That is crazy. And the school's not doing anything about it, but they're violating. I'm referring to, there was an encampment in White Plaza, which were people on the one hand, exercising freedom of speech and protest. And on the other hand, there were instances of someone in the encampment wearing a Hamas headband. There were instances of deeply disturbing signs and posters calling for violence or the destruction of the Jewish state or against Jewish students.

Kathy Sarlson (20:32)

gosh.

Andrew Lobel (20:40)

It was also in clear violation of university policy around time and place and overnight. And seemingly the university was not doing anything about that. on the one hand, it was troubling. And on the other hand, I think for the most part at the GSB, people don't really talk about politics. The rosy way to look at that is that as someone has said to me here, people really prioritize community over cause. Whereas in other schools, they prioritize cause over community. think perhaps the more

Kathy Sarlson (21:04)

now

Andrew Lobel (21:09)

pragmatic explanation is people come to business school for the network, whether it's your classmates or alumni. And so there really are no incentives to engage in activity or speech or political activism that might jeopardize that, which, you could argue that there are some downsides to that. And are we missing out on having conversations that would otherwise really enrich our experience? But that's, that's the reality. The flip side is I've had a lot of one-on-one conversations that are deeply meaningful.

Kathy Sarlson (21:14)

Yes.

Andrew Lobel (21:38)

with Jewish students, non-Jewish students, really across the gamut. And so that's been deeply gratifying. And if anything, everything happening on campus was an impetus and there was a lot of fodder to talk about. And it gave me a lot of opportunities to share what I was going through as a Jewish student who proudly identifies as a Zionist.

Katharine McLennan (21:38)

Mm.

Kathy Sarlson (21:59)

it's been a very warm home for you and for other Jewish students. that makes me feel good. think as an alum, what I was experiencing is getting on the...

I'll admit I'm like never on WhatsApp, but I went on various WhatsApp groups of GSB Jewish alums and other Stanford Jewish alums. And while initially it was helpful to get their, get other people's perspectives and, know, have this sense of we're so upset. at other times, the vitriol on so many other issues and people saying things that I did not agree with or believe in.

was not a warm and welcoming place. so I'm glad to hear that at least on the ground at the GSB, was as good as it could be. And that in some ways one could be a little insulated on what was happening on the rest of the campus if you chose to be.

Katharine McLennan (22:46)

Mm. Mm.

campus.

Andrew Lobel (23:06)

I, like you, I joined many a WhatsApp group after October 7th, all variations on Stanford, Israel, Vanguard, support, defense, community. And I've probably muted the majority of them, not because they're not, there's just a lot of stuff there that doesn't really resonate with me or I just, I have enough GSB group chats as is. I will also say there was, there's the question of, you know, what is the role of the university

Kathy Sarlson (23:27)

I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Andrew Lobel (23:35)

in making public statements for or against political events. depending on who you ask, last year, John Levin either wrote a wonderful email or he waited way too long to write an email or he wrote an email, but it was too little, too late. That was another question because I think, again, going back to what I thought was a double standard, it felt like Russia invades Ukraine or

Kathy Sarlson (23:38)

Yes.

Andrew Lobel (24:01)

Some other hallmark event happens and the school is very quick to say, we condemn, we don't stand for this. This is not aligned with our missions and values. And, you know, when it comes to October 7th in Israel, it was a little bit thornier and the school didn't make the statement. Personally, I also am fine with the Chicago style of not really opining on anything, which is I think a perfectly reasonable response. But the question again goes into when do you decide

that you were going to adopt that stance after many years of behaving differently.

Kathy Sarlson (24:28)

Right. That's right.

Yeah, I think a lot of universities did exactly that. They suddenly made the decision that they would not opine on anything because they found it so difficult. I will say having at the time worked at a university that I thought handled it well or certainly better than most. I think they really

Katharine McLennan (24:32)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Kathy Sarlson (24:57)

kept the focus first on being able to speak clearly about acts of terror unequivocably, but then really focusing on the fact that how do we help our own community, right? So how do we help our Palestinian students and our Israeli students and our Jewish students who are profoundly affected and how do we kind of turn inward?

to ensure this is a safe and caring and healing community. So I appreciated that in terms of the public statement. At the same time, I think, similar to something you said earlier, I had helped lead certain kinds of trainings within my own department in the years prior to help us all.

be more responsive to the diversity of those around us. And I'm 100 % glad I did it and I do it again. And after October 7th, there was silence and it took a while for me to get over my resentment, to talk to my colleagues and say, hello. And for my non-Jewish colleagues, there was this real fear of saying the wrong thing.

Katharine McLennan (25:56)

Fantastic.

Kathy Sarlson (26:14)

understanding.

what the impact was, you know, for me to have to explain. It's not like saying, I have family in Switzerland and something bad happened in Switzerland. When something bad happens in Israel, it's a completely people, if they haven't lived that experience, they just don't know. So I had to give people a lot more grace. but it wasn't, I kept sort of knocking in the dirt. We need to be doing something about this. need to be doing it. And

Katharine McLennan (26:24)

No, let's see.

Mm.

Kathy Sarlson (26:41)

Luckily somebody came in at a high level in HR who actually started making something happen and piloted it with my department, but it took a couple of months and by then, by then I was leaving. but I was glad that they eventually got there, but I think that was a pretty common experience.

Katharine McLennan (26:53)

you

Andrew Lobel (27:01)

I was gonna say some additional family background. My dad is from South Africa and he grew up in apartheid South Africa and his grandmother- or I guess my grandmother, sorry, she was an incredibly strong woman and my dad's father passed away when he was relatively young and my grandma was steadfast in telling my dad who's the oldest of four boys that-

Katharine McLennan (27:05)

Yes. Yes.

Andrew Lobel (27:21)

The situation in South Africa is terrible and he has to get the heck out of there and come to America and bring his brothers with him because the future under an apartheid regime is not great. And so I just heard you mention the word apartheid and that's immediately where my head went.

Katharine McLennan (27:34)

Yes, I'm in Sydney and Sydney particularly has such a vibrant South African Jewish community. I've got quite a few friends there. They are vibrant. my gosh. But Andrew, back to you.

Andrew Lobel (27:46)

I know, well,

just briefly, I know we're going on like a thousand different tangents. I was in Sydney last year for my GST, my global study trek with the GSB, and I was there for two weeks, and I went a few days earlier, and I was able to celebrate Shabbat with the local Jewish community there, and vibrant is a wonderful word to describe it.

Katharine McLennan (27:51)

That's Yay! Excellent.

Fantastic.

Wonderful.

Kathy Sarlson (28:04)

nice.

Katharine McLennan (28:06)

Yeah,

yeah. what's in your mind as you listen to Kathy and you think about the conversation to be had? What's your reflection?

Andrew Lobel (28:14)

Listening,

I have a lot of reactions. One is on an institutional level, there were a lot of voices who I heard saying things like the same way there are trainings about racism or anti-racism or Islamophobia or homophobia or all sorts of things, we need to have trainings about anti-Semitism. And I always struggled with that because I wasn't sure that having more and more trainings and more and more

groups defined under DEI or the Office of Inclusion was necessarily the answer because as a student who took those trainings, I'm not sure that that was really a huge ROI on that one. I think being a business school is really unique because one, what I mentioned earlier, the emphasis on creating connections and two, people here, at least in my experience, are open-minded and mature and are interested in collaborating together.

there were so many opportunities to have one-on-one conversations or very small group conversations. And even as an example, I had the opportunity last March to go to Israel with my wife and some family members on a very volunteer oriented mission where we were, you know, walking through some of the communities that were devastated on October 7th, for example, near OZ where one in four residents were either kidnapped or killed. And we had the chance to speak to people who were

barricaded in their bomb shelter in their home while terrorists torched their belongings. And I had photos and anecdotes and I kept a very detailed journal and I came back to campus and I felt like it was a duty to share that. I actually flew from Israel to Australia. so I'm in Australia and one of the universal symbols for the hostages that still remain

Katharine McLennan (29:51)

Yeah.

Andrew Lobel (29:57)

in captivity is the yellow ribbon. And I was wearing my yellow ribbon in Australia and people would say to me, what's your ribbon? And I wanted them to ask so that I could talk to them about where I was and what I'd seen and what was going on. So people are really open-minded and I'm grateful to be part of that kind of community as it relates to the institutional questions. Those are deep. I am not equipped to answer.

Katharine McLennan (29:59)

yes, absolutely, yep.

Andrew Lobel (30:25)

you know, on an institutional level, especially because when I think about Stanford University, there's the medical school, the law school, the business school, the engineering school, the undergrad, a thousand different PhD and master's programs, each one with their own administrations and their own student bodies and population and admissions criteria and hiring criteria and curriculum and faculty. What does it even mean to have a Stanford University policy or voice or community? It's so decentralized.

So maybe Cathy has more insights there than I do.

Katharine McLennan (30:52)

But the dynamics, yeah, but the dynamics,

the dynamics that you guys had and replicate and can replicate going forward at the business school, the more I talk to you guys, more, Cathy, the more aware of this class and maybe some of the previous ones, real understanding on the cultural implications, how to do, I mean, that's where I've been for the last 30 years.

fascinated with people's behaviors and how they manifest in organizations and how there's such clashes based on such surface tension. So whilst there's not an institution, Andrew, I would so would love to see you continue to build those communities. Because like Cathy said, even a university where you are, Cathy, can't handle those polarities, so to speak.

Kathy Sarlson (31:43)

I am intrigued by something you said, Andrew, because I would say in all of this, and it's very strange to say this, the most meaningful conversation I had after October 7th was with a friend of mine who has, her family is from Lebanon. And we had this entire conversation, oddly enough, via text.

And via text, she was able to pour her heart out to say, I, my heart is breaking for you and the Jewish community and Israel. And I have Palestinian friends and my heart is broken for them. And like, we were just able to converse person to person about the people impacted and there was learning, there was no judgment. And so.

I do wonder, it would be wonderful to feel like we could build on those kinds of structures. And I think that is happening in certain quarters of how do you have the conversations and share the stories that bring people together with compassion and yet acknowledging that it's okay to want to protect your own family and to have very strong emotional

feelings. And I also think that sometimes when we just read the news clips of all the rhetoric around this issue in particular, what we don't hear are the people who are having those conversations. We don't hear the different groups that are intentionally coming together to learn from one another.

Katharine McLennan (33:20)

Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Yeah, Andrew.

Andrew Lobel (33:22)

I'm really touched

hearing you relay that conversation and also really applaud you for being able to have a civil conversation on a difficult topic over text message that is no small feat.

Kathy Sarlson (33:34)

I don't know how that happened. was very

strange, but it did happen that way.

Andrew Lobel (33:38)

I think if you really want to take a big gulp from the GSB Coolio, I mean, the most popular class at Stanford is Touchy Feely, where it's all about leading with empathy, active listening, lead with curiosity, don't be judgmental. And that's kind of drilled in here. And I know that after October 7th, there were multiple conversations that were actually facilitated by Touchy Feely facilitators with groups of students who are-

Katharine McLennan (33:46)

Yes, of course. Yeah, still. Yes.

Kathy Sarlson (33:46)

Still. Right.

That's great.

Andrew Lobel (34:02)

Jewish or Israeli or Muslim or Arab or from the Middle East or just people who felt very connected to this issue from either side. And I was fortunate enough to participate in one of those conversations. And it's exactly what you described. When you come from a place of here are my values, I value security, prosperity, peace, and we want that for everyone. And you start from a place of values and not a place of demands or interests or political.

Katharine McLennan (34:19)

Mm. Mm. Mm.

Andrew Lobel (34:28)

realities, there's a lot more common ground there than I think we often realize. it's, you're right, that's not covered, that's not covered in the news. That doesn't get clicks. That doesn't sell subscriptions.

Kathy Sarlson (34:38)

It's certainly a place where I do feel like the values espoused by this family foundation are very close to my own values. And I, I feel good about what we're building together. it doesn't mean that everyone who works there has the same religious beliefs or political beliefs, culture beliefs, and

Katharine McLennan (34:51)

Hmm.

Kathy Sarlson (35:05)

I think, there has been an attempt to give space to that. And, and, and, I don't know, I, I'm going to digress for a moment back to what we were talking about, which is if we look at universities, if we look at businesses, because I think when you leave the GSB bubble and wherever, and I, that's true for all of us, right? And then when you work in a workplace sort of,

Katharine McLennan (35:18)

Yeah, please.

Kathy Sarlson (35:35)

What are the companies that can stay the course and be aligned with their values? And so people who work there share those values and that they're not necessarily going to embrace a certain cause because let's be clear, they think they're going to make more money being the company that stands up for X. and as soon as they think it's not, they're going to retreat from it.

So I just, wonder how any of us like in our own companies can maybe be part of that conversation. What are the values of this company and how do we live those values consistently despite what might be happening?

Andrew Lobel (36:17)

You make me think, well, I was going to say the two things that come to mind are there is one, a famous Jewish phrase, two Jews, three opinions. And I think there is a rich history in the Jewish tradition of iron sharpening iron and debate is not something to be shied away from. And it sounds like at least Cathy in your workplace today, there is this really vibrant workplace culture of their varying opinions. People may not agree on everything, but

Katharine McLennan (36:17)

So what do you think Andrew? What do you think?

Hmm, the spread. Yep. Yep.

Andrew Lobel (36:43)

it's in the service of a shared goal or mission or shared values. So I think that really is critical. I'll also say, giving a shout out to one of the best classes I've taken at the business school, it's called Religion and Spirituality in the Workplace taught by Professor Scottie McLennan. Yes, and it is amazing. every week, it was fantastic. Every week there was a different

Katharine McLennan (36:57)

No way! No way! No way! Bring it on! me too!

Kathy Sarlson (37:00)

Wow, I'd like to take that one.

I'm so entrusted.

Andrew Lobel (37:11)

business exemplar from a different religion or different spiritual belief system who would, and we would read a little, a little bit about that religion or that belief system. We would have the guest speaker and the guest speaker would watch us talk for a little bit about some of the study questions and then respond to them. And we'd have a bit of a dialogue. And then the second class of the week would be just the class debriefing the speaker. And first of all, that was unreal.

Katharine McLennan (37:17)

system.

Andrew Lobel (37:37)

When I was in college, I loved taking classes on religion and trying to understand. I took a class on the history of Islamic thought. took a class on all sorts of different religious sort of studies and that was deeply gratifying. And I think also made my own Jewish observance a bit more meaningful, which, which I enjoyed. And being in this kind of class where we're exposed to not just the religions, but then thinking about how does this religion and these values manifest in the workplace or in someone's career?

Katharine McLennan (37:41)

Mm.

Mm. Mm.

Mm.

Kathy Sarlson (38:05)

really interesting.

Katharine McLennan (38:06)

Mm.

Andrew Lobel (38:06)

And the

final assignment was basically saying, you've heard from all these religions or spiritual belief systems, which ones resonated most with you and what will you take with you into your career? And I think if maybe all of us thought a little more deeply about those questions, that'd be good thing.

Katharine McLennan (38:22)

Andrew so answer that.

Andrew Lobel (38:23)

I should pull up my paper. I can send it to you after for review. But I think there is, so this might be a controversial take. The first thing I'll say is, and we read this article for this class, this notion of maybe you don't need to bring your whole self to work and it's okay to have, you should bring yourself and be honest about who you are and be honest about your values and what's important to you. And at the same time, we had the...

Katharine McLennan (38:25)

Yeah, I'd love it. Love it.

Andrew Lobel (38:46)

Reed Hastings came in and he made a comment that at Netflix, they are a company, not a family. And it's very hard for us to internalize that because the primary unit of which human civilization has defined itself for however many years has been the family. But at the end of the day, the workplace is not a family. You might be a team and there might be role players and a coach and a captain and everyone's got the role and you need to be high functioning and you need to be collaborating, but you're not a family. And

Kathy Sarlson (39:02)

Thank

Andrew Lobel (39:14)

You can disagree, maybe some disagreements aren't for the workplace. I'm a little bit, Cathy, you alluded to this. I'm a little bit cynical of, or cynical about some of the employee resource groups or business resource groups. And I'm torn because my wife was very involved in founding the employee resource group at her employer after October 7th. And they've hosted incredible events, whether it be Holocaust remembrance events or just education about different topics. And on the other hand, it's a slippery slope of

All sorts of things. So I might be dancing around the exact question, but I think it's important to be upfront about what's important to you, what are your values, and then just living them and acting them every day. Another thing I learned from my parents is people respect people who respect themselves. That was a lesson that was ingrained in me, and it's easier to do something 100 % of the time than 99 % of the time. So.

Katharine McLennan (39:57)

Hmm.

Andrew Lobel (40:04)

When I think about, for example, my own religious observance, whether it's observing Shabbat or eating kosher food or other sorts of things, those are my guiding principles and I think they're broadly applicable here as well.

Katharine McLennan (40:13)

Yeah.

And you raised such interesting. I have a very, very deep spirituality myself, which is integration is it goes back and we study. mean, the Hebrew is the most pure language along with the the Vedic language and also what am I Sanskrit? mean, and so I love that and I love the elements of it. But I don't want to share that with.

with my clients or with that. There's something that is absolutely even my relationship. I just knew for two years and my partner's not really interested in that. said, well, number one, God comes first. And you have to understand that and the pressure that I can talk to him about that, but I'm never going to say that at work. People, I don't know if they could cope with it. And I love the fact that

where that class existed so we can actually reflect how we appear inside at work. Because it ain't easy, I can tell you, after all these years,

Kathy Sarlson (41:18)

But so it's,

Andrew Lobel (41:18)

Totally.

Kathy Sarlson (41:20)

so interesting because I think that's the difference about like my choosing right now to be back working for a Jewish organization because it's very intentional to bring those values to the floor. And, um, I just had a team retreat. We have two, I've only been there a year or two people have been there about a decade and

Katharine McLennan (41:29)

Hmm.

Absolutely.

Kathy Sarlson (41:46)

I just brought somebody new onto our team and for team building, I did this sort of speed dating exercise. I gave each person a card to make a long story short. It was like, like put your Myers-Briggs type and what are some of the strengths you bring from that? What are some of the challenges you bring from that? And I have like a little handout that listed some of those for each type. But then it was also like, what are some Jewish values that inspire?

your work and what does that look like? And, and then we each met with each person and could write down notes about what each person said, just so we can. And it was funny because two people are related and they like learn something new about each other. But for me, you know, this value of like, basically I feel that I have a life mission and that, you know, I, I have certain things. There's like a Jewish concept of like,

Essentially you can't do everything, but you got to figure out what you're supposed to do and do that. You really can't like escape from that responsibility. And so it's nice being an environment where it's appropriate to talk about spirituality and religion. So that's kind of a choice about where I work. And obviously, you know, there might be other things I don't bring to my job, but that's, that's one thing.

Katharine McLennan (43:04)

Thank you, McKelvey.

Kathy Sarlson (43:11)

camber.

Katharine McLennan (43:11)

which is wonderful. OK, so Andrew, this

is a terrible question for some of you in year two, some of you. What are you going to do after you graduate? I mean, I it wasn't a good question for me, but how do you bring so many of this? Because you come from investment making and private equity. how do you now manifest all this? We're using manifest. How do you bring this to what you want to do or what you intend to do?

Kathy Sarlson (43:20)

my goodness.

Andrew Lobel (43:29)

Yes.

It is a great question because Cathy, when you were speaking, I was thinking to myself, in some ways I'm so lucky to be in a university context in these last two years because I'm not in a workplace. I'm in a place that's all about, I know it's about networking and job stuff, but it's about ideas. And, I mean, I can say, honestly, coming to business school, I knew that I wanted to be very involved in that. Probably knew I wanted to be one of the co-presidents of the JVSA, but

Katharine McLennan (43:48)

Yeah.

ideas.

Andrew Lobel (44:03)

I didn't anticipate that post October 7th, this was in some ways my number one priority on campus. And if I were working a very intensive job, it would have been very, you know, intellectually stimulating and motivating in different ways, but I don't know that I would have been able to tap into this gear in the same way. so similar to what you were describing, being in a Jewish organization, that's how I felt being on campus.

Kathy Sarlson (44:08)

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (44:08)

Absolutely.

Mm. Mm.

Andrew Lobel (44:28)

And when I think about what I want to do and bringing this to my next job, so I am fortunate I have my next role. I am going back to private equity, whereas previously I was at a very large established tenured successful firm. I'm going to another very successful firm, but they're much smaller, they're newer. They were founded in 2021. I think they're about 20 or 25 people. So in typical GSB fashion, I am channeling my entrepreneurial spirit and

Kathy Sarlson (44:56)

Yeah, you're going

to help build it. That's exciting.

Andrew Lobel (44:57)

Yes,

that was the goal. I joined one place when it was already fully formed and I'm really hoping I can be a part of the growth story at the firm I'll be going to. And the honest answer is I don't know. I don't know that is necessarily appropriate to be banging on all the partners doors on the proverbial October 8th and saying to them, we need to do something. We need to make a statement. We need to raise awareness. There might be other things. It might be on a coffee chat or

Katharine McLennan (45:08)

Mm, great.

Andrew Lobel (45:26)

Launcher in person are just saying hey just want to let you know this is a hard day for me as you may have seen in the news But it's it's really different So I think that's something I think a lot about and we'll see how it goes Again in some ways my friends who work at organizations that are very vocal about this issue They feel so supported and I'm really happy for them and I have other friends who say I was on these calls

I couldn't concentrate. No one asked me how I was doing. Aren't they aware of what's going on in the news? I think it really comes down to authenticity. I think I'm one of the few people who can say that I loved my boss back when I was working in investment banking. He was incredible. And in the summer of 2020 in New York City, locked down in COVID, there was a huge bout of anti-Asian racism and violent attacks. And we had Asians and Asian Americans in my group.

boss who is a white Jewish finance guy, he was really well-meaning and he called a group, a hands-on call with the 35 people in our group. And he spoke really passionately about the impact that he could imagine this was having on our teammates and just wanted to articulate that he was there to support. And if you're going through things, don't hesitate to reach out. And because it felt genuine and authentic, that was great. There was no broad proclamation or statement. And I think that's, to me, that's the key.

So I hope to bring that kind of authenticity with me.

Katharine McLennan (46:53)

as we look at this generation, and Andrew, we're both at cusp. we, Kathy and I, we're at the cusp of the generation of baby boomers changing to generation X, and you're at the cusp of generation Y turning to generation Z. So what does that mean? I'm not sure, but what...

Andrew Lobel (47:12)

I feel very

far from Generation Z. I don't understand how they speak or how they text.

Katharine McLennan (47:17)

OK, see, that's interesting. you know, that's very interesting. So, Cathy, not that that relates to anything, but generationally, both of us have children. What's our hope for your generation? What's our hope for our children and, you know, 30s? It might be in this context, it might be in something. But we have the...

I'd like to say wisdom, it's not even wisdom. It's hard won experience. You call it, Kathy. What's our hope for these guys?

Kathy Sarlson (47:51)

So this might just be particular to me and to my specific children. The first words that came to mind for me were like, wake up. And at times I know that they're passionate about different issues and...

I look forward to a time that they'll, that they will, I guess, to come full circle, feel like they can be more activists, you know, in sensible ways and ways that they keep themselves safe, but not just to opine, you know, or be snarky about things or, you know, watch a bunch of videos about an issue, but feel confident enough to engage or

to do something political or, you know, whether it's choosing to give charity or it's choosing to march or it's choosing to advocate. But that's certainly my hope for them and to not necessarily feel like they can easily stand on the sidelines. And again, that may just be specific to me.

Katharine McLennan (48:55)

I don't know. We're facing a serious challenge in front of us and well here and the whole world feels it. It's not the US. It's the entire world watched some of those events in the last couple of weeks and we are all, we're all very upset. And so the question is how do we, how do we act? Because if we stay at home, and by the way, I lived in Berlin and West Germany in the Cold War for four years.

If we stay at home, we've got every chance of the horrendous, horrendous atrocities that October 7th reflected and walls and all kinds of Cold War type of experience. so, you know, it's our, it's our generation, hopefully with experience myself, lots of failures and knowing what I care about, but it's your generation, Andrew,

Andrew Lobel (49:46)

it's a big question. I also realize, I don't know, let me take a second here. I think that I really like what you said, Kathy, about waking up and engaging. When I was in college, think one of the most meaningful things I was a part of was an organization called Civics, where we were 60 volunteers and fifth grade Boston public school systems, and once a week we would go in and teach them about civics, which was both

How does bill become a law? What's the electoral college? And also what are issues in your community and what tools do you have in your toolkit, even as a fifth grader to respond? And I think that this notion of instead of watching TikTok videos and thinking you have a fully formed opinion about any political topic, get engaged. What does it mean to be an activist? I know for many people, activists might be very charged word, but to be actively involved in something I think is wonderful and find something you're passionate about and.

find the topics or the issues that are passionate to you and engaging because I think if nothing else, our generation certainly has a lot of passion. It's just about channeling that into, I guess, productive and meaningful pursuits.

Katharine McLennan (50:52)

Yeah, so as we wrap up, putting you on the spot, you've got, you said, if you had Andrew for one more minute and you never saw him again, what would be the one or two things that you'd say can be recommendations or whatever?

Kathy Sarlson (51:07)

Well, I don't think I have anything to teach Andrew, can say that, but I can that I'm just really impressed by your authenticity. And I think to be able to hold onto that and carry that into every aspect of your life and, and Kath, I'm sure I can't say where you come down on this, but I know for me that

Katharine McLennan (51:10)

Yes you do!

Andrew Lobel (51:11)

Well, Kathy, hopefully we have more than one minute

for the rest of our

Katharine McLennan (51:21)

Hmm.

Fantastic.

Kathy Sarlson (51:34)

there have been many forks in the road in my career in which I chose a different path because I needed to be with my children more. And so, and I'm grateful that I think now that isn't just a woman's question, but it's, it's an everybody question if, if you can, to figure out what it means.

Katharine McLennan (51:52)

Hmm.

Kathy Sarlson (51:55)

at a young age, it took me a while to be able to say things like, yes, I'm leaving early because I'm going to my kid's soccer game. And just like, just stating it, like that is what I'm doing. And yes, I will be back on the computer after the soccer game, whatever it takes, but having the confidence and the ability to prioritize, because not to get like too cliche, but you don't get that time back. And so,

Katharine McLennan (52:20)

Yes, sir.

Kathy Sarlson (52:22)

I do value the time that I took as much as I could while still for the most part working full time to prioritize being with them.

Katharine McLennan (52:33)

Cathy, I totally relate. No one teaches that in business school. know, really, boy, thank you for that. Okay, Andrew, you get a chance to wrap us up and tell Cathy and me what we're supposed to do. You guys are the wise ones. No, I'm not supposed to.

Andrew Lobel (52:47)

But I don't know what you're supposed to do. I will

say that the fact that you are putting together this podcast and Kathy that you opted in to engaging with me is, I think, incredible and I love these kinds of conversations and I think it's easy from all sides to look at the news and say, that generation, they don't get it, they're the problem or even for the younger people to say, look what the older generation has saddled us with and I just love these kinds of conversations.

Katharine McLennan (52:55)

Thank you.

Andrew Lobel (53:14)

It sounds like we agreed on a lot of things and even if we vociferously disagreed on a lot of topics, it still would have been a wonderful conversation.

Katharine McLennan (53:21)

thanks you guys.