Podcast Ep. 14 Stanford MBA ’95 Al Samuels meets MBA ’25 Joel Johnson

Today I’m joined by Al Samuels from the Stanford MBA Class of 1995 and Joel Johnson from the Class of 2025.

Al is an award-winning stage, TV, and film actor, writer, and producer. He co-founded Spark Creative during our time at the GSB, bringing improvisation into business education long before it was a buzzword. His career spans Second City, Edinburgh Fringe, and dozens of corporate stages, all with a comedic twist and deep insight into team dynamics, creativity, and human connection.

Joel is currently completing a dual degree at Stanford: an MBA and a Master of Science in Computer Science. He also earned his undergraduate degree at Stanford with a Bachelor of Science in Symbolic Systems.  During this time,  he served as Vice President of the Undergraduate Veterans. A former U.S. Marine Arabic linguist, Joel brings a rare mix of technical skill, leadership, and storytelling—now channeling it into a startup that makes it easier for families to capture and preserve oral histories.

Together, we explore the creative tension between comedy and code, business and meaning, AI and ethics. This is a conversation about joy, agency, and improvisation—and why laughter might just be our best leadership skill in the face of a rapidly shifting world.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Reconnecting and Current Endeavors

03:04 The Importance of Oral History

06:12 Improv and Business School

08:52 Psychology Experiments and Authority

11:46 Military Experience and Personal Growth

18:02 Navigating Career Choices and Life Changes

23:59 Creativity in Business and AI Concerns

30:19 Navigating Choices and Joy in Career Paths

35:10 The Agony of Decision-Making

41:34 Understanding Agency and Decision-Making

48:22 The Impact of AI on Creativity and Employment

01:02:28 Reflections on the Future of AI and Humanity

CHAPTERS

Join the Podcast Series
Stanford MBA: From Baby Boomer to Gen Z | Class of ‘95 Meets Class of ‘25

Each of these episodes will feature a different pair of Stanford MBA people -- one from the class of 1995, and one from the class of 2025.

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More info: https://www.katharinemclennan.com/

Contact: kath@katharinemclennan.com

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katharinemclennan/

Chapters

• 0:00 Reconnecting and Current Endeavors
• 0:00 Military Experience and Personal Growth
• 3:04 The Importance of Oral History
• 6:12 Improv and Business School
• 8:52 Psychology Experiments and Authority
• 11:46 Military Experience and Personal Growth
• 18:02 Navigating Career Choices and Life Changes
• 23:59 Creativity in Business and AI Concerns
• 30:19 Navigating Choices and Joy in Career Paths
• 35:10 The Agony of Decision-Making
• 41:34 Understanding Agency and Decision-Making
• 48:22 The Impact of AI on Creativity and Employment

Transcript

Note: this transcript is generated by AI, so it won’t always be perfect, especially when it comes to: 

·        Incorrect breaks in a sentence (AI hears the pause and assumes a new sentence)

·        Exact word recognition – you may see that there are words that don’t make sense from time to time

Katharine McLennan (01:02)

Today I'm joined by Al Samuels from the Stanford MBA class of 1995, my classmate, and Joel Johnson from the class of 2025, graduating this June. Al is an award winning stage, TV and film actor, writer and producer. He co founded Spark Creative during our time at the GSB.

and continues to work with Spark Creative to bring improvisation into business education, which he did long before. was a buzzword. His career spans Second City, Edinburgh Fringe, and dozens of corporate stages, all with a comedic twist and deep insight into team dynamics, creativity, and human connection. Joel is currently completing a dual degree at Stanford, the MBA, and a Master of Science.

in computer science. He also earned his undergraduate degree at Stanford with a bachelor of science in symbolic systems. During this time, Joel served as the vice president of the undergraduate veterans. A former US Marine Arabic linguist, Joel brings a rare mix of technical skill, leadership, and storytelling, now channeling it into a startup that makes it easier for families to capture and preserve oral histories.

Together we explore the creative tension between comedy and code, business and meaning, AI and ethics. This is a conversation about joy, agency and improvisation and why laughter might just be our best leadership skill in the face of a rapidly shifting world.

Katharine McLennan (02:47)

So Joel, where are you up to today?

Joel Johnson (02:49)

Ooh, man, I just got back from getting some bagels. I was talking to my former co-founder about the progress of the company and we're just feeling pretty good. It's a beautiful, sunshiny day out here in Palo Alto. And I'm currently looking outside at a bunch of people having fun outside on the field. And I'm having this conversation, which is hopefully going to be equally as fun.

Al Samuels (02:49)

you

you

Katharine McLennan (03:11)

Well, Joan, coming back to you on that touch. And out Chicago. What's up in Chicago?

Al Samuels (03:17)

I just had some Triscuits, they're whole wheat Triscuits, which I don't want Joel to upstage me with his bagel. But I'm in Chicago, we're getting ready for the Edinburgh Fringe, which is a big theater festival that we go to every year. I'm watching shows and kind of running some auditions.

Joel Johnson (03:20)

Mmm.

Katharine McLennan (03:29)

Fantastic. Fantastic.

awesome. What are you guys going to get up to in Edinburgh?

Al Samuels (03:38)

We've been going for years and years except for a little thing called the pandemic. We were off a couple years, but we do a couple of shows there every year and this time we're doing two improvised shows.

Katharine McLennan (03:43)

COVID.

And one of the subjects, can be anything, singing.

Al Samuels (03:52)

So one of them, yeah,

yeah, so one of them is an improvised musical where the audience calls out the title and we make up a musical and the titles are pretty genius from these sick audience members. And the other one is called Shamilton. It's our brilliant send up of Hamilton, which is like our hip hop, hip hop musical. So anyway.

Katharine McLennan (03:57)

Yay. Cool.

loved

that's amazing. let's go back to you. What are you up to in terms of the startup? You kind of slipped into that sentence.

Joel Johnson (04:17)

Ooh,

yeah. I'm trying to get better at shamelessly selling like the rest of these Silicon Valley entrepreneurs. So I gotta work on that skill. Yeah, so a friend of mine and I, we worked on a startup this last summer. He's now working on a different project and I'm continuing for it on the same one. what we're trying to do is make oral history and family stories easier, more accessible to preserve for everybody. I historically speaking,

Katharine McLennan (04:41)

Ooh!

Joel Johnson (04:42)

you wanted to get a high quality memoir or history done of somebody you loved, because it's such a bespoke white glove industry, would cost anywhere between 25 to $50,000 sometimes, which is pretty steep. So for a lot of those families who have maybe been historically, you know, not as represented within culture, media, academia, whatever it may be, or just in historical record in general, how do we make that more accessible to them? And so we're at a sort of like an interesting

Katharine McLennan (04:52)

Eesh.

Yeah, I think.

Joel Johnson (05:11)

Nexus where technology is getting better, this proliferation of high quality video and audio through the things that we keep in our pockets that suck our attention away and make us miserable. And then also just massive improvements in transcription, AI, machine learning, and also just this exploding population of people over the age of 65 that we're about to witness. the fact that so much wisdom and so much experience and knowledge that

that occurred in the 20th century, all that first person lived experience is about to just completely evaporate. And I feel like we're in a unique position to actually to stop that exhaustive information and knowledge from the world. we're just looking at trying to bring storytelling, make it accessible to every family in the United States and hopefully the globe.

Katharine McLennan (05:55)

Okay, so we are of that 60, almost 65 generation. What would be your family story that you start telling on one of these interviews?

Al Samuels (06:06)

no, that's a good question. I think in our family, it's a struggle always between art and sort of traditional, the arts and the traditional. My mom was a concert pianist, my dad was a judge, so actually there were always sort of amusing stories going around.

So I think that that would be it. think it'd be it. And it does feel like maybe the struggle of our time. Maybe I'm over-inflating my role in this universe, but I do feel like that is sort of where we're potentially going. One the sort of great struggles is are we going to appeal to our higher souls, which I would say is our artistic soul, or are we gonna kind of be separated? The isolation, whatever you called it.

Katharine McLennan (06:44)

Yeah.

Al Samuels (06:49)

the isolation age is what you call it.

Katharine McLennan (06:51)

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

it's the inspiration versus isolation I decided and inspiration is definitely you guys. And Joe was just telling me what how they're using improv in business school. What what do you guys are up to on that? Tell us about that.

Al Samuels (07:05)

Mm.

Joel Johnson (07:06)

Ooh, yeah, so we, I'm one of the co or former co-presidents, we've just turned over our leadership to the new MBA ones, which I'm very excited about. But we would run workshops prior to recruiting for the actual shows themselves. So we found that at business school, even at Stanford, which is, I would consider to be the more whimsical of the MBA programs. I think that

Katharine McLennan (07:28)

You

Joel Johnson (07:30)

It's very serious. There's not a whole lot of venues where you can kind of just be goofy and be silly and sort of play, I suppose. And being able to provide some space where people can kind of just let loose and say ridiculous things, do ridiculous things in a way that is in the service of spontaneity and just fun and laughter. think it's a really kind of healing not to be, I guess, I feel like that's kind of like a loaded.

term healing, but it does feel healing for a lot of people. And it feels healing for me too. So I think that like, lived a very serious life before. And I think being able to tap into humor and joy and spontaneity and just goofiness is something that I just never want to lose. So being able to do that, provide that for other people, and then also, you know, get up on stage, you know, in front of, you know, not just your classmates, but also the class below you. like, you know, we'll pack G101 and G102.

We dealt with like probably 200 something people. Don't tell the staff, because we're definitely over capacity there. But just to have everybody kind of come together and laugh and kind of forget about the seriousness of life for a little bit is great. And also be able to provide some interesting social commentary in the comedy that I do. So I think that's a lot.

Katharine McLennan (08:43)

Interesting social commentary.

social commentary, I don't remember much social commentary other than the experiment, the, I forgot what that experiment was called, but, and you were, yeah, the Milgram experiment.

Al Samuels (08:53)

The Milgram experiment. The Milgram experiment.

Joel Johnson (08:55)

Well, instead of a prison experiment.

Al Samuels (08:58)

No, not this, the prison experiment is also excellent and totally

creepy, but the Milgram experiment is the one that was obedience to authority where they're, yeah, yeah. Do they still show that?

Joel Johnson (09:05)

that's right. It's the one person. Yeah.

They, so it's interesting. There's been a, at Stanford especially, ever since the prison experiment kind of like blew up and there's been this massive sort of reproducibility crisis within psychology as a field. They don't talk about it as much as they used to. was, I was psychology for my first quarter at Stanford. And then I ended up switching over to something that I felt was a little bit more.

robust in little quotes. And I just remember the way that they talked about experiments then versus, you know, I talked to some of my friends now who are not traditional students who come to Stanford and they're in introductory psych programs, very different from what I understand. It's very, they've really changed up the way they talk about things. yeah.

Katharine McLennan (09:49)

Well, I tell

you, Joel, because there's nothing better than the Milgram experiment. It was so precise and scientific, and Al can explain what that looked like.

Al Samuels (10:01)

So I mean, Joe, you just gave a very cogent discussion of what we should be careful about around psychology and the danger of psychology experiments. was to me, it was so funny. It's so ridiculous. It's like, so if you perceive the black and white film, it's very 50s feeling the guy's in a lab coat and he is convincing who you think is a just a regular person.

to shock another person in another room to death, as they get more electric shock, as you get more and more answers wrong. And it's, mean, the implications of the actual experiment are horrific because what it means is a guy in a lab coat, especially that at least, could tell somebody basically like, teacher, you need to keep shocking the person. the teacher who's actually a person who's part of the experiment, but the other person doesn't really realize it, is like, help, I'm dying, I'm dying. And the person's like,

Katharine McLennan (10:27)

electric shock.

Joel Johnson (10:50)

Thank

Al Samuels (10:51)

you're killing this guy. It's like, well, actually you're killing this guy. Anyway, long story short is I it was pretty ridiculous and funny, and horror, but it was funny. So we based our entire show. don't know if you guys still do our sort of a first year show, which was our kind of variety-esque show around it, which I think is maybe one of the only reasons I was accepted into Stanford was to kind of work. Well, I mean, I'm almost not kidding. anyway,

Katharine McLennan (11:12)

Yeah, get out. Get out. I... Yeah.

Al Samuels (11:16)

That is weirdly a pertinent experiment sort of now, because basically listening to authority is pertinent in our trying times.

Joel Johnson (11:19)

for sure.

Katharine McLennan (11:21)

Isn't it? It's blowing.

It's really like some of the essays coming out on this is just phenomenal. mean, Joel, you also, your career before, mean, both of you had amazing different careers. Thank God for the business school, you know, interesting, but you, your career coming into the business school was pretty interesting. What'd you get up to?

Al Samuels (11:25)

Dude.

Joel Johnson (11:41)

Ooh, well, I was one of the veterans here at GSB. But I am one of the few enlisted veterans. So what that means practically is I, you know, went in without a college degree was not a commissioned officer went in sort of at the lowest rank possible, and really got to experience the more regimented and less, I guess, like less

how would I put it? The, the, side of the military where it's less glamorous. so I, I, I just, I remember going through high school. was kind of very mediocre students. I didn't really study much and, my parents didn't really have the means to send me to, college. and I remember. Despite being a very sort of like anti-authority, I'm not, am I allowed to swear? Okay. I was very much like a fuck the system kind of kid.

Katharine McLennan (12:28)

Yeah, why not? Go for it.

Al Samuels (12:31)

Hey,

Joel Johnson (12:32)

is ironic how somebody who was very much like anti-institutional both ended up in the military and is now like very much part of like, like in quotes, like the liberal elite now having like by three degrees from Stanford or whatever. so, but it was, but the interesting thing, and this is my observation about like the kind of the interesting component about the military that people don't necessarily understand, especially the Marine Corps is the Marine Corps, kind of imagine it being full of these very a type macho.

Katharine McLennan (12:42)

goodness gracious.

Joel Johnson (12:58)

you know, captain of the football team types. It's actually much more of like the, like very like insecure, like probably doesn't have a strong masculine figure in their life. Like I'm going to go prove to everybody how tough I am. And if I go be a Marine, nobody will ever question my masculinity or how tough I am. So that was, I was very much like of that archetype where I don't want to draw percentages of what the Marine Corps is, how much of it is constituted by that. I'm probably going to get attacked on the internet for that, but

Pat, it's a very strong driver. the one thing that the reason that the Marine Corps never has problems recruiting is because there's never a shortage of insecure young men in the United States. That's for damn sure. So I kind of fell into that trap. The recruiter was like, he got me. He was like, he pegged me. He knew I was an anti-institutional type. And he's like, you know what? You wouldn't make it anyway. You would quit. And I, hook line and sinker, multiple times in my life have I fallen for that trap of,

Oh, you can't do it. I was like, okay, watch me. And then I like three months later, I'm in bootcamp. I'm like, damn, this guy got me. He got me good. Wow. So yeah, so I ended up being in the military for five years. I spent most of my time in Sub-Zaharien Africa, working with, yes, working with some really awesome professionals, predominantly from the US Army Green Berets. So I didn't spend a whole lot of time with Marines when I was deployed, but I had the opportunity to kind of see how other branches did work and just have.

Katharine McLennan (14:09)

As you do.

Joel Johnson (14:22)

the utmost respect for the rest of what the military does.

Katharine McLennan (14:24)

What

an amazing, what an amazing career. mean, almost similar, almost the same as Al's incoming career.

Al Samuels (14:27)

Damn.

Yeah, I mean, first of all, thank you for your service. You know, thank you. Uh, well, I talking, I was actually talking to Kath, not you, Joe, but whatever. No, no, I was talking to you. was talking to you. Thank you for your service. for making the rest of us feel bad. Yeah. What years were you serving?

Joel Johnson (14:34)

Thank you for paying your taxes and my salary. appreciate it.

Katharine McLennan (14:34)

Absolutely.

It's just... You're welcome!

Joel Johnson (14:49)

2013 to 2018. So I was in right when sort of like the Islamic State was like really popping up in in sort of prevalence. And then I exited at the same time when they sort of like kind of fell apart.

Al Samuels (14:51)

Okay.

Right.

I'm a veteran improviser. So veteran performer. So because some of the same. No, you know, it's a Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I'm joining I talked very briefly before this and you know, we just we were wanting to sort of chat about making sure that we got into some depth here, which I just appreciate what what Joel did. Yeah, I was coming into business school. I mean, I had done I was an economics major and then also

Joel Johnson (15:03)

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (15:12)

the gym.

Yeah. Yeah.

Al Samuels (15:25)

But after I graduated, I wanted to do film and I wanted to do performing and I was doing performing in college. And I was dating a girl at the time. That's the whole story. I just wanted to be impressed that I was dating a girl. No, I was dating a girl at the time and she was going to go to grad school. We were living in this idyllic little college and cottage in New Hampshire. And we were like, well, we should probably go. I know, I know. It was one of those things like John Snow and New Grit and Game of Thrones.

Katharine McLennan (15:38)

You

Al Samuels (15:50)

Maybe we should have stayed in that cave. But it was this beautiful little cabin on the river. we're like, you know what, should go to grad school. And I had a film school application on one hand, basically, and a business school applications on the other. And ended up going to business school. But when I went to California, I was gonna go to Kellogg in Chicago, because to be closer to Second City and comedy in Chicago. But she got in in California and I was like, you know what, I think I would rather

go to Stanford and be close to her. Luckily, we broke but, I, yeah, whatever. No, I will, I Joel, you definitely said I do, what was the word you used? Whimsical. I do agree that, that, I was surprised at the, in a good way at the sort of whimsy that was part of the, you know, sort of in, in embedded in the business school and in fellow classmates and the like, which was nice. That was a, that was a surprise.

Joel Johnson (16:19)

Mmm.

Katharine McLennan (16:20)

You're sitting at Stanford going...

My father was a career army, Vietnam twice and in the Cold War, we lived in Germany and Berlin and West Germany in the Cold War. So I really honor your five years coming in. But how does somebody with five years then come back and get three degrees at Stanford?

Joel Johnson (16:45)

and well.

Al Samuels (16:48)

Hello.

Joel Johnson (16:52)

Mmm.

so I'm, feel very lucky that, like if I'm gonna be completely honest, a portion of me was...

disillusioned and generally unhappy with the way that my life was in the military. I think that I had maybe exhausted the extent to which I could fully buy in to the work that I was doing. I think that I started having some doubts. Like, for example, I was raised very neoconservative. was raised by parents who said, know, if Al Gore or John Kerry get elected,

Katharine McLennan (17:25)

Mm.

Joel Johnson (17:35)

as president, we're moving to Canada, which is just an outrageous alternative to that in the first place. But my first exposure to progressive politics was actually in the military. Forced, I was in intelligence and I was surrounded by people who, a lot of them had gone to school before and were very, very educated. I remember my team leader, who I still think about regularly as maybe one of the smartest people that I've ever met, really challenged me in a lot of ways and making me

question my beliefs about government, about foreign policy, about all these things, and really encouraged me to just, I guess, not drink the Kool-Aid, so to speak. So there was sufficient doubt in my head about like, do I believe in what I'm doing like 100 %? Because a lot of times if you're doing that work, you really have to be bought in. And this was sort of like, as I mentioned, like the Islamic State was kind of falling apart at the time.

Like I had studied Arabic as part of my training and I was very interested in and sort of like Middle Eastern culture Arab culture generally speaking and was seeing sort of this massive wave of individuals who were coming from Western Europe or North Africa Who were leaving the Islamic State and like going back to their home countries and there's this big question. Like what do we do? How do we like deal with these people who like were radicalized at 16 17 18 years of my you know in their late teens or early 20s

and then went off and fought and then are coming back. Maybe like, maybe they're a threat, maybe they're not. Like, how do we sort of engage with that? So I was really fascinated with just what goes on in the brain. Like what is like an ethical, neuroscientifically backed way, like supporting people who have been radicalized. Cause there's some, a little bit of that in my family as well. not gonna, without getting into too much detail.

So I was very interested in that. And I knew at Stanford, ironic, had a very good psychology program and they were really kind of pushing the frontiers with neuroscience as well. And I felt like what a great place to sort of learn and build the skills to be a helpful member of like a coalition that's inevitably going to be needed to help de-radicalize and help people readjust back into society after being exposed to, you know,

different media or different ideas that sort of maybe push you out where you would normally have gone if you were sort of maybe more educated, had more economic mobility or had more options available to you. that was really the move. was motivated by a great captain that I worked under on my last deployment who encouraged me. He said, do not go to any other school. Like don't go to like a whatever the hell state university, like go to a good school. Like he had went to do

He was like very successful guy. and his wife was like, a surgeon and he just, he just encouraged me to try when even, even when all the other guys, like the contractors and the other guys in the military were saying like, like you think you can get into this school? You think you can get like, what do think you're better than us? Like you really think you can do that? Like there's no way they don't want you. So to sort of like have some encouragement on that. and then again, sort of like the, screw you, watch me do this kind of attitude, which is still in me, which I'm trying to get out of me, but, that sort of took place. So I applied to.

Katharine McLennan (20:29)

you

Joel Johnson (20:34)

A bunch of schools got rejected from most of them. Stanford accepted me. They had the most generous financial aid package. So was like, I remember actually funny enough, used to, like when I didn't want to sort of like express it, I was in the military, I used to lie and say that I was like, I'm a Stanford like researcher who's like out here investigating like whatever. So I sort of like manifested that maybe a little bit early on, but I didn't bring that up in my essays. But yeah, Stanford just seemed like a great place to go.

Katharine McLennan (20:50)

you

Al Samuels (20:57)

the

term is in their term was stolen valor when you pretend to be in the military. Is reverse yeah you were the you were the return valor you're giving valor away you're. Reverse about yeah.

Joel Johnson (21:02)

Yes, was exactly, I was, was still in balancing exactly a hundred percent. Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (21:08)

You're giving Bella away. God out.

I don't even think we had any military. no. Of course. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. CJ. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So CJ and then investment banker, right? From the military to the investment banker.

Al Samuels (21:14)

I thought we did. of course, CJ, CJ, Christina, you house. Yeah, she was, she was, that's okay. Wow. Wow. A race. Go ahead.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah. And think we might have had some other military as well.

Katharine McLennan (21:28)

You're probably

how do you then, Joel goes military to business school, you go from second city to business school. and then you go back. has the NBA been, useful I always wondered about that.

Al Samuels (21:41)

Yeah, it's, I mean, the wishy washy answer is like, there's their yes and no. you know, had it, had I, had I just committed, you know, when I really look at it, I think, cause I had a lot of close friends who were, had really dove into doing, you know, acting or, or directing or filmmaking or screenwriting. And it was, you know, it's especially early on, it's a real slog. And I think that might've.

played a part in it where I was like, oh, you know what? I'll be able to start my own theater and start my own production company, film company or whatever. And I think that that played a part in it. At the time I didn't say that, but I think that played a part in it where I was like, wow, this is a much safer sort of route. And so there's always that sort of push pull that I mentioned before, but when I was at business school, I think you know this, Kat, I was at business school.

second year my mom passed away and she was very she'd been sick for a while but she kept getting better and it was one of those things where you're like well she's sick again but now she got better but christmas time over the over the holiday break before during our second year i went home and i was leaving the house like she was in a hospital bed in our house so trying to get better and i was like mom she's like i was like i'll stay maybe i'll stay here but till get better she's like no no no you live your life and the next day the next day she died

And it was really very close. And my sister called, was like, mom passed away. And at that point, I really threw myself back into it, school, performing and directing. And I would go up to San Francisco and perform and stuff. And I think I was on my way to, if you remember when, when we were at school at GSB, back when it was good, no, when we were there, we went to school in a very Stalinist, like brutal building, brutalist building, but it was right next to the.

Katharine McLennan (23:19)

It was two.

Al Samuels (23:21)

Oh, it was terrible. mean, you guys are

Katharine McLennan (23:21)

It was two.

Al Samuels (23:22)

country club. Was it? No, was it? No, I don't know. it a little thing? I think they did. Yeah, they nuked it from space. Yeah, was a new pull that new for space. But it was right next to the drama department and it was very it was like as as symbolic as you could have hoped for at least my my sort of journey. There was business school right next to the drama of drama building. But I remember as well, I think it was on my way to some interview. I can't remember exactly. It was like brand management or something consulting. But

Joel Johnson (23:23)

Is this Littlefield?

Katharine McLennan (23:25)

They probably blew it up. They probably blew it up. Yeah.

Joel Johnson (23:27)

Yeah.

Al Samuels (23:51)

I was walking by the drama department building on the way to the career center and I was like, I would do that for free. Like walking by the drama department, was like, I would do that for free. And I'm on the way to like get a job where I'm gonna be like selling ketchup or whatever it is. You know, marketing ketchup or whatever it is. But hey, if you market ketchup, the ketchup is great. I'm sorry. I don't mean to throw shade. I mean, yeah, throw shade on condiments. But so then I, yeah, I was like, I'm gonna go back to Chicago no matter what I will.

I'll just go for it and I will audition for things. I'll audition. Second City was the thing I always went to growing up. I was like, I'll audition for it. I'll spend time with my dad who was having a hard time, you know, after my mom had passed away and my friends, a lot of my friends and performing friends were there. So yeah, it was one of those like decision point, like moments in the road where you're like, there's moments of clarity. Joel, it sounds like you've probably had many more of those, but I have had maybe not as many. And that was a moment where I was like, you know, that is

I don't want to do that. I want to do this. Yeah. And yeah, that has been, that was a real, a real moment. Yeah. And I auditioned for the Torco of second city and got into that and then got chosen from that to do the main stage. But had that not happened, I think back, I'm like, well, had that not happened, would it still have been kind of worth it? Maybe I think, yeah. But like that ended up opening up a lot of doors and was, but, you know, the, the, the sheer performing and writing and the financially it isn't as,

as windfally as many, many, many of the things our classmates do for better, for worse, for worse or for better. But yes, it's fun to do, but it's also, you're always sort of like, how is this doing? The finances often just don't quite make sense for a lot of the projects that we're working on. But it is, but the sole satisfaction of a lot of times is nice. It is good in that way. there's a lot of laughter. There's a lot of immediacy. There's a lot of like...

Katharine McLennan (25:20)

Mm. Mm. Mm.

Joel Johnson (25:31)

Yeah.

Al Samuels (25:42)

Yeah, sort of the magic of creating in the moment is nice.

Katharine McLennan (25:46)

Well, that's the thing. so the creating is what I'm interested in because we're going to need that the information age, as I call it,

big data and everything else. It seems to me that business school people were great at solving problems given to them. But if you give them a white piece of paper and you try to get them to strategize something absolutely new and radically different, it's not always that great. And if AI is going to do most of that problem solving, where are we left? How are we going to get that creativity, especially with our great leaders that are coming out of business school at Stanford?

What do you see in your class?

Joel Johnson (26:23)

Well, so my other, so I'm doing a dual degree and my other degree is in AI and I've been a very, I've been kind of a skeptic for a long time. I guess I'm really worried. The thing that got me into it in the first place, like was the philosophical component of AI. was really like the computational theory of mind. Like, we just meet computers or are we something more? And I guess like, I'm really worried about what

Katharine McLennan (26:29)

there you go.

Good.

You

Joel Johnson (26:47)

Even if AI doesn't get to like this Skynet level of scariness, I'm already worried about sort of the sort of the atrophy that is being induced by the constant use of ChachiBT or Claude or LLMs in general and sort of this outsourcing of critical thinking and reasoning that is just tremendously concerning to me.

Katharine McLennan (27:09)

Mm.

Joel Johnson (27:13)

I don't know, I'm concerned, but I guess maybe I'm looking at it from a different angle. guess, I don't know. I want to be more cheery about this kind of stuff. Like I want to be sort of like a techno optimist, but I just find myself not being able to do that. And I think that like, and this actually kind of gets to like a question that I for both of you, if you don't mind me sort of injecting one of those in here, is I have like this degree.

Katharine McLennan (27:24)

Check it out.

Peace.

Joel Johnson (27:35)

I had previously, the research I was doing, I'd won a couple of grants from the Navy to do some research on AI misinformation, propaganda, how that's gonna affect national security interests, more broadly speaking. And so I feel like I have this skill set and I feel like I have this mantle of responsibility having been given the opportunity to be here at Stanford when they could have brought somebody else in. And Al, when you were talking, there's this,

Katharine McLennan (27:55)

Hmm.

Joel Johnson (28:03)

this idea of just joy in what you are doing, despite like, I'm sure you have classmates who are making like, are, know, big movers and shakers and like make, you know, you know, are responsible for hundreds of millions of dollars flowing across different channels and allowing for, you know, businesses to have capital they need or whatever it may be, or influencing policy decisions. But I feel like I am encumbered by this.

this expectation of myself that I don't know if it's societal or if I don't know if it's just completely self-imposed. And it is really debilitating. It is really exhausting asking myself, do I owe based on the privileges and the opportunities that have been afforded to the world using these skills with the AI and the business side versus what do I owe the world with respect to the improv side of me, the comedy side of me, the artist in me, the creative in me that wants to...

make people laugh, make people think, and maybe not necessarily build a product for them. Like, sure, the product is great and I love what I'm doing. I love what I'm building, but I just get stuck here. I get really stuck here and I worry that I'm about to commit a lot of time and a lot of effort to something that will not, I guess, I don't know, that I'm doing this out of obligation more so than out of a true love for what I'm doing. I don't know. Do you guys have thoughts on that?

Katharine McLennan (29:21)

You wanna be here for hours? you give it a go.

Al Samuels (29:24)

I drop out of school. Come on. no, I, yeah, that's a great question. That was the time to drop out. Just chill out, get in a van, drive across country like in nomad land. No, that's such a good question. I mean, this, the, the, the sort of easy answer to what you were saying is, is that you don't have to choose. Like you can do what you're thinking about doing, pursuing that. There is time, lots of time to like,

Katharine McLennan (29:27)

He's almost done. He's almost done.

Al Samuels (29:50)

course correct. I want to say course correct, but to that to evolve, but that joy that you're talking about, what are the, whether you call it sort of the improvisational feeling of it or the joy, the laughter, whatever you can infuse that into what you're doing. That's an easy answer to say, but, I do feel like, I do feel like just, you know, in this brief time talking to you, it doesn't feel like if you did go down that path that you would not infuse that with joy. Were you saying, and I'm sorry, I should know this, but you were saying that there's like a lot of there's like a

people, group of people at the business school that are interested in doing sort of comedy and improv and sort of performing and stuff. Yeah. So, I mean, just that fact alone, you would not think you would go to Stanford and have that experience at all. Like, I didn't think that. And I was asked early on, we didn't have that. And I was asked by four or five students, like, could you lead a couple workshops in improv and what you're doing and like comedy and storytelling screen or whatever. so long story.

long answer to your good question is, I would say you could still do both. The agony though, having been there many times, the agony is the thing that is going to trip you up. Like it's good that you're thinking about it, but it's like whatever you can do in your own sort of head and journey to like try to set that aside and be like, know what? can't, there is no necessarily 100 % right answer. can't solve everything today. I am going to.

I'm going to take a step. am doing this thing right now and I'm trying to fuse it with joy and I'll try to be sensitive to the fact that myself like be sensitive. Like that is it. That isn't I can't do this anymore. I can't do this. I had a summer internship between first and second year and the person I worked for was just not completely unjoyful. And I was like, no, I got to slog through. I got to slog through, got to slog through. And then

I left it a month early to come back to Chicago and do some more performing because I just was like, this is too much. I'm just not enjoying this at all. Anyway, that's such a Pat sort of answer to your very deep and thoughtful question.

Katharine McLennan (31:42)

to do.

But it's the agony. love that word,

because by the time I decided to come from my 20s, I just wanted to say, my God, agony is taking over, know, it's life is life. And God, the passion out to really have that, but creation can't come without agony. And frankly, Joel, your initiative sounds fantastic.

Joel Johnson (32:11)

I feel very fortunate, but first of all, thank you, Al, for your extremely thoughtful response. I had a lot of thoughts on that. And I guess just off the top of my head, I have to remember that it's never either or, that's always some blend of between, and that there is always a way to infuse these, because like improv and the creativity, these are ways of existing, and you can infuse.

Katharine McLennan (32:16)

Mm. Mm.

Mm.

Joel Johnson (32:35)

I think that the people who seem to be able to do these things sustainably are the ones who can infuse those elements and qualities into everything that they do, whether it's like the way that they cook their meals on a weekly basis or the way that they, know, do like nice little like acts of service for their partner or whatever it may be. So that's a good healthy reminder for me that it's never really either or, that there's always a way to kind of blend them. I think...

Al Samuels (32:43)

Hmm.

Joel Johnson (33:01)

My general barometer for, and for better or for worse, maybe it's because I'm a cancer, not that I believe in astrology, but people do tend to bring to me their woes. And I, it seems that people are very dissatisfied right now. I there's a lot of people who feel that they're either going back to something they don't like or that they are going into their opportunities with a lot of apprehension.

Al Samuels (33:05)

the

Katharine McLennan (33:15)

Mm. Mm.

Mm.

Joel Johnson (33:28)

And that also weighs on me because I feel like it is sort of viral. It's contagious in a way where I hear enough of that and then I'm looking at like going into entrepreneurship or going into doing something else. And I'm like, ooh, boy, there are going to be some things that I don't like about that for sure. Like with everything. And now it's starting to sow some doubts in my head.

The agony thing is, I love that word too, because it feels very like, I think it's a Buddhist principle to say like, do not suffer twice. Like, when you're anxious about something, like you're suffering in that moment, then you may suffer through that moment in the future. But like, there's no sense in suffering twice.

I find that that is sort of relevant and applicable to a lot of these scenarios where like, I don't know what this journey is gonna be. a lot of my friends, maybe they do know, because they're coming from those roles, but I don't know. It's just, the agony seems to be the one that is just, there's always a way for me to find ways of making myself, be, of finding ways of putting myself into agony. I'm a very cerebral person. And I think that I, by default, I just opt.

for like being in mental anguish. that seemed mental and moral and ethical anguish is like my default state. And I'm trying to, I don't know, I guess I'm trying to learn how to trust myself. like something that Al said before was like, you like you took that, you, I was, you realize you're in this like joyless thing and you decided to quit. Like I also sometimes forget like in the military, you can't just like quit, like you can't just like, but like now I realize I can, I can just quit. can like, I guess.

Al Samuels (34:32)

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (34:52)

Okay.

Al Samuels (34:52)

Right?

Joel Johnson (34:56)

learning to trust myself and be like, I don't like this. I'm going to take action or in response to that. Like, I think that that has been that that's something I keep forgetting. I have the ability to do. I forget about the of agency that I have and it's kind of strange.

Katharine McLennan (35:05)

Mm. Mm.

Al Samuels (35:10)

So Joe, had a quick question. I'm so sorry, Kath, go ahead. I had a question. So, I mean, you went through the military. it, this is someone from the outside who doesn't know really Jack about, you know, what I had gone through and what they would go through, is there a, is there approach to that where they're like, to this question in the military where they're like, you have to make a decision, for example, you just have to decide and move forward and that it's, it's the mission, it's whatever it is, or was that not?

Katharine McLennan (35:10)

is. No, you go.

Al Samuels (35:39)

I'm interested in like, they have, did they have, I the military has seems to have many, techniques and, and processes for so many things, you know, it seems like that's part of the, like how organized that they are, but they have something like that where you say like, well, if you're having to decide between these things, you know, you, you just must, you, need to do this and then make your decision and stick or whatever. don't know if there's some sort of like wisdom from the military that you either carried forward and or

Joel Johnson (35:46)

Yeah.

Al Samuels (36:08)

reacted against and said no that that method isn't for me I'm going I'm going to leave the military when I can.

Joel Johnson (36:14)

Yeah, that's, think that there's two sides to this. think there's the one side of like the sort of stereotypical military thing where it's like, you do what you're told. And, like it's sort of like, again, it's easy to do what you're told, like in bootcamp and like the early training procedures, like those are really easy because you do it. It's, all you have to do is like whatever ridiculous tasks they ask you to do, like in bootcamp, like it's not to be the guy who's telling bootcamp stories, but like they're trying to drill instant willingness, obedience to order. So they'll have you do ridiculous things. Like they'll say,

They'll like go through these tasks and like, okay, like drink your entire canteen. Okay, I can do that. Like, okay, now like open up your foot locker. Okay, I can do that. like, okay, now put your bunkmate in your right cargo pocket. And you're like, okay, I don't know how I'm going to fit a human person in my cargo pocket, but you better damn well try. it's like, so I think that there's the easy version is like, do what you're told, like be on your set trajectory. And I think like the analog to that would be like, for if you're like a young student who has like tiger parents,

It's like, okay, do really good, get really good grades, have an extracurricular that you do at a world class or a national level, go to a great school, get a job as a doctor or a lawyer or something like that. And then like continue sort of like the success. But I think when you are then injected with this agency and you like, have the option to choose, that's when things start to feel more difficult, both in the military and I think more broadly in life. So.

When you have to ask, is this actually my decision? Is this actually my belief? Is this actually my values that are being imbued in sort of my decision-making process and my criteria? That's when things get difficult. But I think generally speaking, the most helpful thing that I think I took away from the military was this element of luck and how much you can make the perfect decision with the information you have in that time, and it could still go horribly. And there's also circumstances where no matter what you do, bad things will happen. It doesn't matter how smart you are, how athletic you are.

Like my grandfather was a submariner in a World War II diesel submarine in the Pacific. Scary job. It doesn't matter how smart you are, how good you are. Like what matters is the luck that puts you into that tin can underneath that Japanese cruiser that's dropping death charges that are exploding around you. Like it is so much of this is luck. And when you sort of take the ego and like this feeling of like agentic supremacy where like you, I...

because of my decisions, my outcomes are wholly reliant on that. When it's just like, sometimes shit happens and there's nothing you can do about it. Like it's not up to you and like things just happen and you can, and yet have to accept those consequences and just continue to make decisions as best you can. I think that was very liberating for me, knowing that even that I, that there's no way to make the perfect decision. And like trying to calculate it is impossible. And it's a waste, make, obviously you want to make good decisions, but I think that that was really liberating for me. And it's something I'm still trying to internalize.

Katharine McLennan (39:04)

Agency is a great word Al. What's agency to you? can't believe it's been 30 years, geez, how that happened. But agency, what does that mean for you in your 30 years since business school?

Al Samuels (39:16)

Yeah,

that's a good question. Yeah, I think it is. I mean, I think it's very parallel to what Joel's saying that you, especially because in going in sort of the field of the arts and performing or writing and direct, whatever it is, there isn't as a prescribed path as even a prescribed path of, I mean, our business school has a lot of options and not as many prescribed paths as like a doctor or lawyer would have, but you know,

A lot of our typical, you know, you want to, if you want to do a startup, there's, there's, there are steps that people will follow that you know, you need to contact this group. You need to follow these steps in order to start this, do this startup, do the start this company and the like, which is great. There's less of a prescribed path in that. And so you do have to figure agency out and figure out how that, you know, agency itself and the ability to just say like, I'm going to.

go down this path even with whatever, if you want to call it agonizing, like agonizing all over these different options, that is actually a skill as well. That is a skill. Like at a certain level, it's sort of like in sports, with, in and where, where at a certain level, there's many, many people who are very good at it in arts and in comedy. There's many people who I look at that are, you know, I perform with, or that I will direct or whatever. I'm like, man, they're all really funny. They're all really good performers. It's, it's a part of luck.

that's part of it, sure. Like were they the right type, look, whatever at the time? And then on top of it, did they have that skill of just like fucking sticking with it and like driving and being like, you know what, I'm just gonna, example, you know, the easy things, I'm gonna stand up on stage and then if I'm bombing to shreds, it's all right, I'm get up again tomorrow and I'm gonna do it again and I'm gonna sit there and embarrass my ass again, but I'll get the one kernel out of that thing, that's a good laugh there and I'll build on that and I'll keep building on that.

And hopefully you'll have enough opportunities to do that before someone says you're never being put on stage, you're never being put on film, you're never gonna be on a TV show again. yeah, so I don't know if that answers your agency question, but I think that would be the feeling like that is a skill to me as well.

Katharine McLennan (41:30)

And also, I mean, it's that perseverance is how you're describing, but also knowing when to give up, So I think for me, that was a major failure at times.

in my life when I did give up because I didn't persevere. And you look back, Joel, it's 30 years is amazing for one thing. So many of us have learned, gone this direction, gone that direction, and it's OK. Now, what's interesting, is that our last reunion, nobody mentioned business.

Joel Johnson (41:43)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Katharine McLennan (42:04)

Nobody

mentioned what they were doing, really, at least from my experience. We had speakers and they were talking about things they'd learned about family, things people that they had lost, things like that. what is the most important thing? So.

Al Samuels (42:16)

Yeah, I I don't remember and I'm on my, my background is obviously a little bit different, but I don't remember much about peanut butter costing from cost accounting sort of, I just remember I was amused by that term, but I will say I do remember precise moments in touchy feely. I remember moments in organizational behavior, like where people would talk about themselves a bit like, yeah. And like really

Joel Johnson (42:27)

Mm-hmm.

Katharine McLennan (42:27)

you

Joel Johnson (42:36)

Yeah.

Al Samuels (42:44)

I remember there was some, Joel, I'm not sure if it's sort of a similar sort of vibe, but I think it was our OB professor was like, it was like a line of like how much you use the skills from business school and one where the sort of basic like finance and accounting and that was a line that sloped eventually downward and as years go by and the ones that do, it's the OB sort of being

Personable being a person being apathetic those things, you know as the years go by become more and more and more I imagine me any you guys are much in a good way. It feels like a Generation that is much more sort of in touch with their feelings and the ability to be like hey, know what? This is this is too much right now. I need I I need space anytime I need some like some me time and I mean maybe that adds sort of to the whole Feeling what you're saying where people are dissatisfied

Maybe we were dissatisfied, we should have known it. We just were just like, oh, we're just having fun. I don't know, it didn't feel that way. didn't feel that way. It did feel like you guys are, you know, it does feel like we didn't face the same global worry that you guys do. It felt like we were a little bit of a protected spot. Maybe just the Cold War had ended. We had a couple of hilarious holdovers from the former Soviet Union in our.

Joel Johnson (43:45)

sleep.

Al Samuels (44:02)

Classes who would yeah big Igor there was big Igor little Igor big Igor would would amusingly call out I never get an OB this is a stupid story But you know everyone in OB would always want to hear their own voice talk So they'd be like, you know what? Well when I worked at XYZ like when I was treated well, I I was more productive and then someone would be like yeah building on what Joel said and they would just say the exact same thing would you I was more productive when I was treated well and then someone else would be like

Katharine McLennan (44:03)

We did!

Anna.

Joel Johnson (44:28)

some things ever change.

Al Samuels (44:29)

Exactly. exactly. They're just like,

got my points. But Big Igor, who would love calling out the fact that he was, he just raises his hand and you know, the professor called him. He's like, I'm from the former Soviet Union. The only way to motivate me is to punish me, which made me laugh. was like, I love you, Big Igor. You're killing me. It was really funny, but it does, you know, long, long story short of this, it does feel like you guys have a, you're facing what feels just more like

consistent global challenges. mean, the pandemic is just like one of many things that we didn't, you know, like we sort of knew we're like, climate change is out there, but it didn't, it wasn't like a constant conversation. Like there was no idea of a pandemic. know, you're like, wow, there's a new pandemic. And it felt like, the world was in a sort of like quieter space. But anyway, yeah. So it does feel like you guys have more.

And because of that though, maybe because you are more in touch with the way that you feel, you are maybe, just, people are more in touch with that and feeling like, you know what? I'm not happy right now. I'm, yeah, I'm feeling less happy.

Katharine McLennan (45:35)

It's interesting

Joel, one of the terms that you used, AI pessimist. And I don't think we had pessimism about, we didn't even really understand the internet except for the technology club, which I should have joined in the cafeteria. However, should have, could have, would have,

Joel Johnson (45:47)

Hmm.

Katharine McLennan (45:49)

The pessimism, tell me about that because I don't know how this next generation and technology are going to interrelate. What are you seeing studying it and being interested in psychology?

Joel Johnson (46:01)

Mmm.

boy.

I

So if there's like the practical components, you know, there's, there's, and of course, for every study that states something, there is also a study that is it's, it's counter but McKinsey released, they have an Institute for Black Economic Mobility, and they released a report talking about how they expect artificial intelligence to exacerbate existing racial inequality, income inequality, specifically within the United States. And I guess like the most

I'm fundamentally worried about like, are the sort of short to medium term pernicious economic effects of deploying these systems, know, automating away a lot of jobs and just being in a position where I guess like the wealthy get even more wealthy and the middle class continues to sort of lose more economic opportunities. Like that's a pretty big concern.

of my kids, but also a lot of people, I also recognize that there is an inverse to that as well. It's democratizing a lot of these skills. It's making more people easier than ever to be able to like build that app that they were curious about or build the tools or it really, there's a lot of really promising aspects to it as well. But I guess like when you think about sort of how these systems are trained and how like the, what data goes into inform them and like how really all the model outputs are largely incumbent and

reliant upon that underlying data to produce whatever they do. When you think about sort of like who may not have been included in that data, who may not have been sort of adequately represented or representing the most accurate light in those, in that data, like that all kind of like makes you question sort of like what sort of biases are going to be baked into what becomes something that is so ubiquitous to knowledge work within the world.

And I guess to me, it seems like it's going to accelerate a lot of problems. given that technology, like specifically large technology companies right now are very like DEI is a bit, you know, radioactive and people are just like leaving it completely. I don't feel like in this next four years, which is arguably some of the most important years with respect to the development of emerging AI systems. When that is sort of the tone of like any kind of data equity issue.

I know that again, another charge term is being kind of pushed to the back burner or just straight up being abandoned. That does make me pause. And not just from the standpoint of like, whether or not like if, know, like to appeal to some maybe like my more conservative friends who maybe don't like get jive with the DEI stuff in the first place, totally understand. But like also like there's a large swath of sort of like the middle class like Appalachia experience or sort of like the, like again, like

the experience of sort of like the impoverished white rural areas in the Rust Belt, that, is that also going to be uplifted by AI or is that also going to sort of be continued to be more destitute? We don't know, but I guess like just generally speaking, I am sort of worried about sort of what happens when we employ these systems without really thinking about the implications. But I also do have like a shred of optimism in the sense that like,

There are massive, massive improvements that can be made to the quality of life for everybody, whether it's drug discovery, finding novel cures to diseases, or again, there is a way for this to become a source of massive economic mobility and upside for average people, everyday Americans and people all over the world. So it's, don't know, like many things I'm very torn, right? I'm not an expert in this space. I know just enough to be concerned about how little I know.

want to find reliable, you know, sort of thought leaders in this space. today, I find I really struggle, I guess, to just feel like I'm being informed in general, in a way that makes me feel sort of positive, not just about AI, but like everything. So I guess I'm very

Katharine McLennan (49:52)

It's interesting. It's interesting

you've said is here's this child called AI and we're, we're bringing it up with what values. And that was a really thing I hadn't heard, but AI has affected your industry. Al didn't you guys go on strike?

because of the, not you guys, but a lot of the directors and the writers.

Al Samuels (50:11)

Yeah, no, no, writers, no, there's the writers and then directors and then

and the actors on strike because yeah, I mean, it's not saying anything, probably people don't know, but yeah, the question of like, can we just have AI, right? know, there, it, don't know how much you know about comedy writing rooms for like a sitcom. used to be 10 writers in a room or 15 writers in a room and a-

Katharine McLennan (50:30)

Yep. Yep.

Al Samuels (50:35)

showrunner who's created the show and has a vision for the whole show. And that room's gotten smaller and smaller and smaller. And now there things called mini rooms because they can have the producers are like, know, maybe not now, maybe not today, maybe not next week, but in a couple of years, we'll just tell AI like, hey, write a really funny sitcom about X, Y, and Z. give us an updating of Cheers or give us an updating of

whatever of like, know, boy meets world and here we go. That'll be, you know, write it. So yeah, I still, don't, my question would be, and this is actually a question for both of you guys is if you knew a film was completely written by AI and performed by AI, I personally, and it might just be because, you know, like I'm just sort of grump, a grumpster, but like would, I don't know if I could enjoy it in that way.

But maybe I just don't know what I don't know. Like maybe not Joel's your generation. Maybe the next generation is like, we don't give a shit. Fine. We don't care. We'll watch. We'll watch. I don't care if it was like, you know, done by AI or you had a thousand monkeys in a room just typing on typewriter, like typing on a keyboard. That's fine. So yeah, that would be, that would be currently still AI is like not quite there, but much like in other industries, you can kind of see it maybe where somebody just puts in a prompt and says,

Katharine McLennan (51:30)

Mm-mm.

Al Samuels (51:57)

write me a funny thing because right now if you say like give me ten jokes about x y and z nine point five of them suck

Joel Johnson (52:05)

Worse than Laffy Taffy jokes.

Al Samuels (52:07)

Totally, yeah, totally left there.

Katharine McLennan (52:07)

That's

the nature of the beauty of the improv.

Al Samuels (52:11)

Yeah, because we do one of the things of a company that we employ sort of actors and good facilitators and writers to do workshops and entertainment and this stuff for companies. And one of the clients we've worked with for long time are the Kauffman Fellows Program. And they do it's sort of like a business school for investors and for entrepreneurs, but a particular for investors. It's basically how to how to help VCs be human beings and stuff. And it's great. It's a great program. It's a great program. But

Joel Johnson (52:36)

Sorely needed.

Al Samuels (52:39)

This is totally needed, but they're great. They're really great. It's one of those things where it's like sort of easy to, you know, like especially being in the sort of comedy and satire world, you're like, no, BC is make fun of, but they're really like, there's some really wonderful, lovely, incredible people who are doing some like, you're like, wow, you're really helping the world in such amazing ways. But the head of that thing in our last, the last time that we did it last year, we're to do it again this year and we're able to say the same kinds of things. But at the beginning of our thing, we taught, we're basically teaching them improvisation, storytelling and the like.

But he was like, this is one of the skills that AI can't replace and is going to be not just can't replace, but is needed to sort of interface well with it. Which I was like, you know, that is, that is really true. And I, my, my, my, had, is another sort of part two of that. I had an improv teacher at Stanford. and I took an undergraduate improv class. I had to do that to audition for the camp, to the, for the undergraduate college group.

but she said, I just love that she was like, know, improv is one of the few places in the world that real magic actually happens in front of your eyes, which I was like, that is really cool. And it is, I had never, I'd done it for a while, I hadn't thought of it. was like, you really like your, that is the human part of it where you're feeling like, I don't know what I'm going to say necessarily is that this person doesn't put together. If we follow these sort of guidelines, we will create something that is funny and beautiful and touching to the audience. And the audience season is like,

Katharine McLennan (53:47)

Mm.

Al Samuels (54:00)

It's magic to them and it's magic to you. that is really like a part of being human that maybe AI cannot replace. Maybe.

Katharine McLennan (54:08)

No, it

comes from the soul though. even, you know, and I've gone off a little bit of neuroscience and just so fascinated with what comes, what comes and is drawn out. And that's the fun. So Al and I are going to inject optimism

Al Samuels (54:19)

Yeah.

Joel Johnson (54:24)

Yeah. I think that that's maybe when I think about optimism for AI, I think a lot about, I guess, the teaming component of like, how do we make skills that are a bit more niche and make them more available to people? And part of our long-term trajectory is we want to basically build a system, like a sidekick that allows any individual to be

better story maker to be like somebody who can sit down and kind of do what you do, Catherine, like ask the right questions. that have to know what questions or to have a better idea of what questions ask that, especially that are like, that call upon cultural references or things about their experiences that you might miss. And I think it's going to bring people closer together. I think that's the, the, the hope, but, out to your, to your,

question about the AI film, I'm actually very optimistic with respect to... So there was a really famous article, it was one of the reads, or maybe it was one of the reads, I don't know, but was something about like software is eating Silicon Valley or something like that. There's some other article that was released, I think at MIT's Business Review or something that was talking about how philosophy is gonna subsume AI. And I think that there's some really interesting

Al Samuels (55:32)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Johnson (55:42)

I think we're going back to some very interesting basic philosophical inquiry, like because of AI, like, what makes us human? Like what is actually, what is cognition? What is thinking? And I think that there's a lot of really cool opportunities for AI art, but not from like a, like, let's turn everything into Studio Ghibli AI art, but like experimental sort of conceptual arts. Like what you mentioned with this movie, it's like.

Maybe the movie itself is not the art. Maybe it is the experience of going in there and trying to discern what is human, what is, like, is this derivative? Is any art truly novel or is all art derivative of something else? it is, I know there's a lot of inquiry around that and a lot of theory, but I guess like that's sort of an opportunity for some optimism for me is I think that AI and its increasingly human-like, I guess, productions and output.

is going to make us even more, there's an evil side of that if you ask like what makes us human, but I think there's an even, there's a lot of really interesting questions we can ask ourselves about, what does it mean to be human in the best kind of sense? Like how can AI be this wall that we press ourselves against that allows us to differentiate ourselves and what does that actually mean for the way we connect to each other or treat each other and produce creative output? So I'm optimistic in that sense as well, but I...

Al Samuels (56:48)

Mm.

Joel Johnson (57:04)

But also the copyright thing is big. know that a lot of people in the media are looking at all the chat GBT recreations and are really concerned about the implications of that as well with respect to diluting the artistic image. I don't know. I think that I would watch that movie, but not because I want to watch it because I think it's going be good, but because I think it's going to be interesting as a talk.

Al Samuels (57:08)

You

Mm-hmm.

Katharine McLennan (57:29)

So as we come to the hour, how do you kind of reflect? Where are you now in this conversation as we leave it?

Al Samuels (57:40)

Yeah, I'm pretty, I'm lucky in the way that I still get the chance to perform with people like in their 20s, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. We still perform it. And it is cool to watch them have the same wide-eyed like, this is amazing. It's fun. This is magical. This is hard. This is like, oh, yeah, I'm going to pay my health insurance, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, that's not the fun part for them or me, but.

Joel Johnson (58:04)

should.

Al Samuels (58:09)

It is really nice to see that and it is nice to feel that. And it is, I mean, this conversation really made me think too about my own optimism, my own pessimism and sort of feeling like what the values of that, where that might come from. So that's part of it. And another, I will just say a quick thing, like I, speaking of sort of comedy storytelling movies and the like, there's a few sort of movies that I, if I were thinking about this, a lot of times I think like,

What sort of movie does that remind me of? And there's a movie out now called Companion, which is really great. A friend of mine wrote and directed that and that's not like that. That's usually can be a death knell like I have a friend, but it's really good. And it's, it had, deals with some of these issues. Like what about if there's like a bad human and a nice AI, like what, what do you, what is it, what happens there? And then there's just things like her. If you remember that movie, her with Scarlett Johansson. Yeah. Joaquin Phoenix. And then.

Katharine McLennan (58:58)

Yeah, yeah, fantastic. Yeah.

Joel Johnson (58:59)

No.

Al Samuels (59:02)

There's an old show called Battlestar Galactica, not the like old old one, but a more current one that deals with like, what is it to be human? What is it to be like a robot and put the two together? so those are things that I sort of think about that I, and I do think regardless that art can help us process the questions around this before maybe it gets to the point where it's, I don't want to say too late, but kind of too late to unring the bell.

Katharine McLennan (59:27)

Joe, do you want to sum up as we come to the end of the hour?

Joel Johnson (59:30)

Yeah, I think I am leaving this conversation with more regrets, not having asked more questions, if I'm going to be totally honest. I can tell, and this is not me trying to get a bid to talk to you guys more, but I can tell that there is a lot, I guess, we were talking about wisdom, and both of us talked about the baggage that that word carries, but I've always been somebody who's

Al Samuels (59:37)

He he.

Joel Johnson (1:00:00)

been, who's gravitated towards hanging out with older people and enjoying time listening to people who have just like been around the block a little bit longer. And I feel like we had a lot of jumping off points there that I wish I took more advantage of. And it's now making me think, it's just making, it's compelling me to just ask more questions and have more conversations with people who have seen more time. And

I'm just like, I'm just really grateful. think it's made, it's also made me just think a little bit more about like my own stances, my own optimism, my own trajectory. will, I still have a lot of questions whether or not like I'm headed down the right path or whether even matters or whether there even is a right path. But I, I don't know. I just, this is, this feels like an incomplete component of a complete Fuller journey. And I think I'm

just glad I've had the opportunity to talk to some folks who have similar interests and have just been awesome to converse with. Al, I hope to, I mean, the takeaway from this is I'm gonna be trying to talk to both of you more often. I mean, especially Al, just being, like committing yourself to the arts and having performance. Like, big question I wanted to ask you was like, they say don't make your hobby a career.

Katharine McLennan (1:01:05)

Awesome.

Joel Johnson (1:01:12)

But that's one of those things that I've been thinking about a lot. I just am so glad to see that there's people out there who have kind of taken this non-traditional path because that's how I feel like I've gotten here. That's how I continue to want to live my life, even though entrepreneurship is now kind of a traditional path coming out of Stanford. So yeah, I don't know. I just feel very engaged. I feel excited. I feel like ready to have more conversations and think a lot more about who I am, what I want.

Al Samuels (1:01:39)

Joel, you're already 18,000 times more actualized and dense than I was at business school. I can't wait to see what you do. can't wait to see how you change the world before we blow it up. So I'm really excited to see what you do. It's great to continue the conversation.

Katharine McLennan (1:01:59)

So stay in the question. It's never answered. That's the fun part.

Joel Johnson (1:02:03)

Mm-hmm.