Podcast Ep. 15 Stanford MBA ’95 PY Nicole Chang meets MBA ’25 Jesse Cai

Today I’m joined by Nicole Chang from the Stanford MBA Class of 1995 and Jesse Cai from the Class of 2025.

Nicole is a powerhouse strategist, entrepreneur, and global executive who’s spent three decades helping companies grow from good to great to legendary—often leading them through ownership transitions, IPOs, and international expansion. With roots in investment banking, consulting, and C-suite leadership across North America, Asia, and Europe, Nicole brings depth, heart, and unstoppable energy to every venture—including a recent creative collaboration with her singer-songwriter daughter.

Jesse is a second-year MBA student and former high-frequency trading leader who now balances part-time work at Hudson River Trading with finishing his final quarter at Stanford. With a background in computer science and a passion for algorithmic problem-solving, Jesse brings curiosity, candor, and a keen awareness of the ethical and cultural shifts shaping the future of AI and finance.

Together, Nicole and Jesse reflect on what it means to lead, adapt, and stay human across wildly different industries, life stages, and eras—from Wall Street to Shanghai, and from startup bootcamps to AI bootstrapping. We explore how culture, courage, and creativity define success—no matter the decade 

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction and Backgrounds

03:50 Career Paths and Work Experiences

07:00 High-Frequency Trading Explained

09:58 Diversity and Role Models in Business

13:16 Cultural Reflections and Asian American Identity

15:49 The Evolution of Startups and Technology

18:55 Personal Growth and Career Development

30:57 The Essence of Leadership and Organizational Culture

31:55 Experiences in Beijing: Leadership and Cultural Insights

37:02 Navigating Cultural Expectations and Identity

39:03 The Challenges of Returning to Roots

43:14 The Impact of AI on Technology and Jobs

45:46 Teaching the Next Generation: Creativity and Critical Thinking

52:12 The Role of Creativity in Music and AI

57:50 Reflections on Lifelong Friendships and Personal Growth

Join the Podcast Series
Stanford MBA: From Baby Boomer to Gen Z | Class of ‘95 Meets Class of ‘25

Each of these episodes will feature a different pair of Stanford MBA people -- one from the class of 1995, and one from the class of 2025.

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More info: https://www.katharinemclennan.com/

Contact: kath@katharinemclennan.com

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Backgrounds
• 3:50 Career Paths and Work Experiences
• 7:00 High-Frequency Trading Explained
• 9:58 Diversity and Role Models in Business
• 13:16 Cultural Reflections and Asian American Identity
• 15:49 The Evolution of Startups and Technology
• 18:55 Personal Growth and Career Development
• 30:57 The Essence of Leadership and Organizational Culture
• 31:55 Experiences in Beijing: Leadership and Cultural Insights
• 37:02 Navigating Cultural Expectations and Identity
• 39:03 The Challenges of Returning to Roots
• 43:14 The Impact of AI on Technology and Jobs
• 45:46 Teaching the Next Generation: Creativity and Critical Thinking
• 52:12 The Role of Creativity in Music and AI

Transcript

Note: this transcript is generated by AI, so it won’t always be perfect, especially when it comes to: 

·        Incorrect breaks in a sentence (AI hears the pause and assumes a new sentence)

·        Exact word recognition – you may see that there are words that don’t make sense from time to time

Katharine McLennan (01:02)

Today, I'm joined by Nicole Chang from the Stanford MBA class of 1995 and Jesse Kai from the class of 2025. Nicole, who was my roommate at Stanford, is a powerhouse strategist, entrepreneur, and global executive who's spent three decades helping companies grow from good to great to legendary, often leading them through ownership transitions, IPOs, and international expansion.

With roots in investment banking, consulting, and C-suite leadership across North America, Asia, and Europe, Nicole brings depth, heart, and unstoppable energy to every venture, including a recent creative collaboration with her singer, songwriter, daughter. Jessie is a second year MBA student and former high frequency trading leader who now balances part-time work at Hudson River Trading.

with finishing his final quarter at Stanford. With a background in computer science and a passion for algorithmic problem solving, Jesse brings curiosity, candor, and a keen awareness of the ethical and cultural shifts shaping the future of AI and finance. Together, Nicole and Jesse reflect on what it means to lead, adapt, and stay human across wildly different industries, life stages, and eras.

From Wall Street to Shanghai and from startup boot camps to AI bootstrapping, we explore how culture, courage, and creativity define success, no matter the decade.

Katharine McLennan (02:37)

So, Jessie, where did we find you today?

Jesse (02:40)

Yeah, so I'm living in my passed down house right now. So just two miles off of campus. It's kind of like the first full week back from spring break for us. So definitely a bit of an adjustment week. I was just traveling over spring break in East Asia, like in Seoul and Singapore. And then actually we were in Vegas this past weekend. So finally like trying to settle back in.

Katharine McLennan (02:50)

Okay.

Jesse (03:03)

you know, get the last quarter schedule sorted and everything. So yeah, today was kind of a work day. I'm also working part time as I finished my last quarter. So, you know, taking Wednesday with no class to work and then, yeah, doing this lovely podcast.

Katharine McLennan (03:18)

Nicole. So where are we finding you today?

P.Y. Nicole Chang (03:21)

So I'm actually just back from Asia as well. So we might have overlapped in Singapore actually. But I find myself in Los Angeles where I moved about 10 years ago after spending over 20 years abroad after the GSB in Asia and Europe. And I now dating myself but we already know this is class of 1995.

Katharine McLennan (03:23)

Wow, there you go.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (03:46)

I will have one kid graduating from their master's program at Stanford and one kid graduating from undergrad at Harvard and Berklee College of Music in the next month or two.

Katharine McLennan (03:46)

you

And then what happens, Nicole? I'm empty nested. What about you?

P.Y. Nicole Chang (04:00)

Well, I'm in, we have, feel like my house is just like the startup land. So we have about three or four kind of startups that have been going on for past about six years, some earlier than some older and some relatively early stages. So we are in full swing and then both my kids will be doing their own startups as well. So while some are resting on the beach, I am,

Katharine McLennan (04:04)

you

yi yoi.

you

P.Y. Nicole Chang (04:27)

hard time resting on my office chair.

Katharine McLennan (04:30)

Nicole, you have never

rested in your entire life. I've seen like one moment or two moments, I should add, that Nicole and I were housemates and we all still, there were five of us and we still all kind of keep up with each other. So a lot, but I've never seen you rest. I'm going to come back to those startups because your startups are always fascinating to me as is your world travels. So Jesse, you're working.

What are you up to as you try to study? And by the way, this is the last term for you guys. You're graduating, right? Pretty soon? Yeah. So what's the work? Is that going to carry on or what you up to?

Jesse (05:03)

Yeah.

Yeah, so I'm working part-time in the job that I'll start after graduation or start, guess, officially full-time after graduation. It's back in the trading space. So before my MBA, I worked in high-frequency trading and then I'm also going back there, a different firm, but same space. So I'm just getting started a few months before I officially graduate. Yeah, I guess I missed it a lot, so I couldn't wait to get back into it. But it's definitely been...

Katharine McLennan (05:15)

Okay.

Jesse (05:34)

something I've been thinking about a lot, especially balancing that with, like you said, like the last term here and making sure that I make the most of the experience while I still can.

Katharine McLennan (05:44)

high frequency trading, you must have been hyperactive in the last day. well, tell people what high frequency trading means. And then I'm curious for my naivety, whether yesterday was your biggest day of all time. No, not yesterday, today for you guys,

Jesse (06:00)

Yeah.

Yeah, it's definitely, you know, been a crazy week, been a crazy few weeks. but yeah, I guess to start with what high frequency trading is, you know, there's, I guess like you can think of like hedge funds or people who work in like public equities as people who make like long-term bets on, you know, certain products, right. for people who work in, you know, high frequency trading, they may, take positions that, you know,

maybe these are like kind of the longer term high frequency trading, like they may take positions that they expect to go one way or the other over the course of a few minutes. And then sometimes it's even shorter than that, right? It may go down to seconds or there may be cases where maybe there's a really profitable trade.

A lot of different firms want it. And so you're racing to take the other side of that trade as fast as you can, in which case you're looking at like microseconds, nanoseconds to have your algorithms try and pick up that trade. So a lot of it is done.

Katharine McLennan (06:55)

yoy yoy. So what happened? What

happened in the last few guys? Like in the last 24 hours or even before that?

Jesse (07:03)

yeah, there's definitely, you know, the markets are definitely super busy. There's a lot of volatility. it is an interesting space to be in because a lot of the trading is done algorithmically. So, you you don't have people like click trading that much, but

You have machines that you've optimized the algorithms, you've optimized the technology, and they're kind of running in the background. People are monitoring them, but they're doing the actual training for you. So a lot of the work that's being done is to optimize the technology, optimize the algorithms. But then once you release something there, then those will trade for you, and you don't necessarily have to manually intervene yourself.

Katharine McLennan (07:41)

So what do love about it? Why are you going back? Where's the passion?

Jesse (07:45)

Yeah, so there are a few things. Kind of what brought me to this space was, you know, I studied computer science in undergrad. I did some internships in like traditional software development. But I think I realized over the course of that, you know, I'm someone who like my personality type is I like to juggle a lot of different things.

I think like this space was just really well suited for that because there's just always so many things going on. So many different things you can pursue and not only that, but you get very fast and quantitative feedback in terms of how you're doing. You know, I remember like, when I first, joined this, the company that I was at before business school, I was amazed at how like, I could do some research. I could, you know, just walk down the hall.

I guess after we all return to office after COVID, right? Ask someone, hey, can we make this change? We can make the change. The next day we can start to see whether it makes money or not. And whether or not it makes money, right? That's a very clear measurement of like how well you did. So I just love that process. And I guess the last thing I would say is I love like the competition. You know, there's like some aspect of it where it's like, you kind of have to show up every day and you have to make your money. Otherwise the firm will...

Katharine McLennan (08:42)

There you go.

Jesse (08:56)

will eventually die. And so there's an aspect of like trying to get better each and every day, trying to find something that, you know, the edge comes from finding something that no one else has found before. And I think there's something there that's, that's really exciting.

Katharine McLennan (09:09)

I love the instantaneous gratification. That would be good. But Nicole, how do you relate to that? your career has been unbelievable. First of all, it's an indication that you did a law degree and a business degree at the same time. And then it kind of

keeps going from there, Nicole. So you're saying 20 years of not being in the US, what's the first stop?

P.Y. Nicole Chang (09:33)

So the first stop was, well first off I want to say, Jesse you're hired.

Katharine McLennan (09:38)

when you're finished with the algorithms.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (09:40)

And then exactly. You sound so good at this, you know. I think I really may be hitting that beach soon.

Katharine McLennan (09:48)

I'm in.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (09:49)

Yeah, no, it was interesting. So for me, so mine was, you know, I love this comparison because in those old days, you know, it was a lot more, you know, I'd say potentially more traditional, especially the first generation born in this country. And so the traditional past was actually new to me because

Don't come from a family of business or, and so I had an opportunity to work at McKinsey, which I really loved and I was there and I was there and about my second year or so I got an opportunity from a headhunter to go into the C-suite. And so at McKinsey you're advising the C-suite, but then when you're asked an opportunity to become

a COO, CFO, and this was at the time leading the first Western style IPO in Eastern Europe. I was like, well, that sounds super interesting. And I went to go speak to the HR manager at McKinsey and they essentially, I was still indecisive asking their advice. And essentially, I think I recall them saying something like, you'd be a fool not to take that. And it's like, okay, maybe that was her excuse to kick me out of the door. But anyway,

It was really was a fantastic experience to kind of jump into it. And I think that's a lesson we all learn in life. You learn most by just doing and sometimes it's best not to think too much.

Katharine McLennan (11:12)

And Nicole, that was Prague, right? Yeah, and that's like, we're talking 1995, 1989 is when the wall comes down. This is, mean.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (11:14)

Yeah, that was Prague.

Yes, that

was, I think I went about 1997, 97, 98, that was when I was there.

Katharine McLennan (11:27)

Yeah, so you're,

yeah. And it's still like new horizons. Meanwhile, Jesse, you guys are traveling every single country. One of your classmates said that she went to because that's what you do. So, I mean, but Nicole, you raised something interesting. and I know Jesse, you'd asked to just speak a little bit about this. When you guys say first generation, Jesse, you asked if.

Maybe one of the topics you'd like to raise is just the Asian American ideas and philosophies and was interested in what you had to say or reflect on that.

Jesse (12:00)

yeah, no, like, I guess super strong thoughts one way or the other, but you know, it is definitely, I think something that is on my mind every now and then, you know, especially like you mentioned, it kind of feels like now, you know, I'm kind of part of this like second wave of like Asian Americans that have, you know, come through different industries, but also like the business school here. Right. So we have, you know, not only, a group of us that like a relatively larger, I guess, group of us here.

but also a generation of people that came before us that we can look up to. And so I think like both of those aspects like, you know, make us feel like there's a lot more community in the moment. And then also we have these role models and people who can serve as inspiration for us to look forward to. So, you know, I think maybe there's some comfort in that compared to.

If you're kind of like the first one who's doing it, I imagine it must be tougher. But then at the same time, there's also kind of more to go as well. There's still a lot more progress yet to be made. So those are just some of my thoughts on the topic.

Katharine McLennan (12:56)

If you just need to open it,

because so you go to Prague and I'm trying to remember when you actually go to Beijing. Is that is that right after I can't remember.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (13:04)

No, I did.

But I did say in the I call it the just any city that started with a P I'd go. So it was a Prague and then I met my husband who's from Paris. And then

Katharine McLennan (13:15)

course because Nicole

may that pause Nicole speaks I don't know how many languages you're up to at least four that I can think of but maybe more but anyway yes French husband lovely yeah

P.Y. Nicole Chang (13:27)

Yeah. And then we were in Paris for three years where we

had two kids and started and sold a company. And then we moved to Peking. We'll call that a P there. But yeah, I wanted to follow up on that comment about this whole Asian thing. I definitely think that in the past 30 years,

Katharine McLennan (13:38)

you

P.Y. Nicole Chang (13:51)

there has been much more, there's been many more role models, one in terms of Asians and two in terms of female and Asian females, right? So I think that that is something that has been, there's been progress there. I, because I do remember when I was interested in going abroad with McKinsey actually, you know, before I had that opportunity, I knew I wanted to spend some time abroad because I,

I actually now I'm like, what was I thinking? But I was like, it is way too comfortable. Sam, I was living in Pacific Heights. I bought an apartment there and my friends were all around and it was just so wonderful. Everything. I was like, this is way too easy. Um, and like I need something more. I'm more gritty, I guess, or just like more. And I was like, you know, this would be great for a later stage in my life. don't know what I was thinking, but, and, then as I was starting to look for.

other opportunities. I do remember that as opportunities came up around the world in different offices, there was always some reason like, well, I don't know if Asians are treated that well there. I don't know, maybe females aren't treated that well there. Let's try for this. Let's try for that instead. Let's wait. And so and I do do recall sometimes, you know, seeing when I looked at role models around, sometimes they were often like the housekeepers of

certain partners or something. No names to really mention here, but then it's like, that's what you see around you. then oftentimes the wives of these people were not working, right? And I think now double working couples, dual income families potentially are more prevalent and or one of the spouses who may not be quote unquote working is doing something very...

you know, get that gives a lot back to society. It's not just like staying home, if you will. So I think that's a really good point that there has been a change in terms of many more role models to look after.

Katharine McLennan (15:45)

But one of the things, Jessie, the diversity of the nationality, first of all, is incredible. The experiences that you have before you guys get to the business school, so many of you are working already on the startups.

And Nicole, was thinking, I'm gonna exaggerate the statistic, but 70 % of us probably went back to, or went to McKinsey or Goldman Sachs or a corporate position. And then the 30%, we were hitting 1995 when Netscape went public. You probably don't even know that name. And the internet went and one of our classmates started eBay, another one founded Hotmail as you do, and da, da, da, da, da. You guys are in such a different zone.

But back to what we were talking about is the huge range of all kinds of nationalities thinking the fact that you guys have been around the world.

Jesse (16:41)

Yeah, so I think like one specific thing is I definitely agree, Nicole, with what you mentioned in terms of like diversity of role models, right? So I remember like specifically in one of our classes, like we had a very successful like female entrepreneur come in and someone asked her, you know, how was she able to...

you know, be so successful in business, but also raise a family successfully. And she kind of pointed to the fact that, you know, when she wanted to start entrepreneurship, her husband naturally at that point also happened to want to work less and stay at home and take care of the family. So you see like, maybe, you know, more diversity in roles, right. And, and, and as a result, we have more of these, more role models from, different diverse backgrounds that, you know, everyone can, can kind of look up to.

And then some other notable people that I think stand out from my experience are consumer behavior professor, Suji. I think she was the first Asian female tenured professor at the GSB. And her class was a topic that to be honest, for me was not something that I expect would be very useful for.

my professional career, right? But she turned it into something that was super interesting and one the favorite classes of mine from last quarter. And so hearing her share some of her stories about how she achieved that level of teaching ability was really inspirational as well. And then you also have people in the VC industry, right? Like Dave Blue, for example, is a name, Gold House, who

They kind of, you know, put a lot of emphasis on the Asian American experience and look to kind of raise us all up. So I think those are all like support features, I guess, that we have as a community now that have been really empowering.

Katharine McLennan (18:17)

Well, Nicole, a little bit to that. You actually, after you go to Paris, maybe I did get this right, you do go to Beijing. And how come, what happened to go, what was the attraction and then how did you enjoy that?

P.Y. Nicole Chang (18:30)

So love Paris. It was a great place to live. But I was being interviewed by a entrepreneurship magazine. And at the time, many startups were happening in Germany and the UK. And we were the one company that was chosen that was based in Paris. And they said, now, why did you choose Paris or France for your startup? So

What went through my head was, because we were crazy. We didn't think about this that well.

Katharine McLennan (19:00)

What was the startup?

P.Y. Nicole Chang (19:01)

it was based on a couple of models that we had seen successful in the US, which started at sort of like high-end concierge services, where you see people who are high-paying businesses spending a lot of time on personal activities. So we were trying to take that out using some technology and trying to...

based on that technology and trying to scale it up. And it actually turned out that we saw more of a niche, there was a niche to be had in a lot of the expats who couldn't speak French very well. So that's kind of where it went into. we definitely took the offer up when someone said they wanted to buy our company. And I was like, definitely. It's so bureaucratic within that. But for me, was really that

Katharine McLennan (19:37)

There you go.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (19:52)

At the time, you know, it seems pretty obvious now, but China, thought was going to be a super house. And when we had an opportunity to professionally go to China and at that time we had two young children, I thought that both professionally and personally, it'd be a great place to go because I thought that, well, one professionally is clear, it's just a growing market. And then personally, I thought it'd be fantastic for the kids to learn a bit about their heritage.

Katharine McLennan (20:20)

Fantastic. I'm trying remember how long you were there, Nicole. seems like a...

P.Y. Nicole Chang (20:25)

over just over a decade.

Katharine McLennan (20:27)

A decade? Was it really? my gosh.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (20:29)

Yeah. Yeah, so we

were based out of, my office was actually in Hong Kong, but the family was based in Beijing and Shanghai there. You know, was one of the big differences I was thinking along when Jesse was responding to your question about when we were talking about role models was that when you were, and you were saying that a lot of our class was going more to these, I'll say typical deals.

I think that in this 30 year period, we saw a lot more quote successes coming from startups and they were very clear. So maybe technology enabled that, right? I mean, we were actually the first class that had email at the GSB. If you recall the computers lined up and then they would only give the assignment via email to force us to go to these computers, which were on the counter and you had to go read it. And that was like their way of teaching us how to

Katharine McLennan (21:00)

you

yeah. yeah.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (21:23)

use emails.

Katharine McLennan (21:23)

And many

of us didn't really have our own computers. went to the computer lab and the internet was not really around except for God, I want to say Mozilla.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (21:34)

So with technology, what it enabled, it was a great enabler for so many startups. then it became, startups was almost a way to, I'll just say, make a living if you want. And no, because I think I would say there's two differences I saw. what technology enabled in terms of business to just go so fast and also to

to allow yourself to scale without the capital you needed. And two, I don't know about you, but I realized even after I graduated from the business school that I grew up in a family where we never talked about money and money was a bad and dirty thing. And I think over the past 30 years, it's completely changed and the role of money in society is seen differently and it is seen more of an enabler.

Maybe too much in some ways now, it's seen as an enabler as well. And so when we were at the GSB, I don't recall us ever talking about the financial aspects. Almost if it's a dirty thing, it's all about follow your passion. But they never said, think about the money, which I bring up because I think it was important, especially for the females. think that even though if you can-

Even though men do share in the household or can, females are shown to have predominantly the responsibility. One, especially in the beginning when you're pregnant or yes, only the women can provide that, if you will. And so it's great to have all the passion you want, but that doesn't afford you to be able to work 24 hours a day when you have young kids to deal with.

And so I was like, I wish that they had talked about that aspect when we were there, because for those of us who don't come from that background never really thought about it. And then you realize, well, this isn't very practical. And we didn't have the technology so you could work from home either. So it really made that much more difficult. So I think this technology and the

Katharine McLennan (23:35)

No.

interesting.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (23:45)

bringing to the forefront practical things such as the money equation and the time and the value of time, if you will, and time in terms of a life cycle, don't just mean time in a 24 hour cycle, that has a big difference of choices people make now.

Katharine McLennan (24:02)

Well, Nicole, it's interesting. So I'm going to say, Jesse, you're somewhere hovering before after 30 years old. first, it'd be interesting to hear where you grew up and how was it instilled in you this very idea that, Nicole, why computer science, but then business. So tell us how you grew up and what you've seen in your 30 year give or take span.

Jesse (24:29)

Yeah, so I grew up in the DC area in Northern Virginia and I lived there for 18 years before going to college over in Pasadena.

Yeah, I think I grew up in, I would say, like a pretty traditional, I guess, Asian American household. You know, the focus was definitely like, you know, math, science, do that stuff well. You know, I played instruments, I would play a sport, you know, and those were important, but that was always like the second priority. And first was always academics. And so I kind of followed that path, you know, up through college. Both of my parents

you know, studied science related subjects in their undergrad and master's degrees, and then they both worked in tech. So I was kind of just always around that. And so I think just naturally I kind of followed it without thinking too much, I guess, to be totally honest, like in the first like 18 years of my life. So then I got to college, I felt like I was like relatively good at this stuff, right? I mean, I guess like looking back, maybe it's obvious because I just spent the most time in it. So

Katharine McLennan (25:21)

sure you were.

Jesse (25:27)

but you know, then I was thinking, you know, what do I want to do after college? And I really didn't know. So I felt like, you know, sticking with computer science, wouldn't be a bad idea because it would give me some versatility down the line. could, you know, pivot into perhaps like different industries later. if I then, you know, figured out what I, what I actually wanted to do. so then I did some tech internships, ended up in trading.

I ended up loving it there kind of for some of the reasons that we had discussed earlier. And then two years in, I think, you know, maybe this is an experience that a lot of people who end up doing MBAs or have done MBAs experiences, you I was a good individual contributor and that kind of got me the experience to manage a small team. So two years and I was leading a team of around three or four people. And then I got there and I was like, I had no idea what I'm doing, you know.

It's like, it's the whole like, what got you here is not going to get you to the next step, right? I felt like the work that I had, the work I was doing as an individual contributor, you know, I had kind of prepared my whole life for that, right? I had studied CS in high school, like I took classes in high school. I majored in that in college. So it's like, okay, I felt prepared for that. And then, you know, for managing people, I had taken like no classes, right? I had mentored some interns, but that was about it. I was an intern myself.

Right. had been mentored by other people. had a good manager, so I had some things to look at, but you know, I had never done it before. So I felt like grossly unprepared. but at the same time, I, I found it extremely fulfilling. I remember when I left actually my last firm, one of the people on my team, you know, as we were saying kind of by after like one of my last dinners at the company, you know, he mentioned that he felt really lucky to have had me as a manager. And I think that was like one of.

You know, things that sticks with me to this day. and, and I view as like one of my biggest accomplishments, you know, outside of all of the technical work. so all to say, you know, I kind of got to this point where I realized working with people was something I really enjoyed. but, know, I still didn't feel like I was as good at that as I wanted to be. so that's kind of what led me to business school. You know, ultimately I realized, think the work, like, regardless of what it was, right.

Katharine McLennan (27:12)

Wow.

Jesse (27:34)

for me centered around people and working with people. And that's something that I wanted to get better at.

Katharine McLennan (27:38)

I love that. Let's take that idea because Nicole and I love that subject. I've built a career around it. fact, called organizational behavior or whatever we want to call it, leadership, culture. And Nicole, I know you love that as well. when you go to Beijing, that must be let's talk about that. Like what does leadership?

look like? What does organization culture look like in as an Asian American going back to 10 years in China?

P.Y. Nicole Chang (28:06)

One of my, I would say that one of my favorite poems is Rudyard Kipling's If, right? Which is talking about basically being able to, whether you're with paupers or princes, to just treat everyone as a human being and kind of understand what they have to offer, if you will, contribute. And more importantly, honestly, you can learn so much from them. And so...

Katharine McLennan (28:12)

Yes.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (28:32)

I, when I first went to Beijing, it was actually my husband's job that brought us there. And so I quickly started looking and what the wonderful thing is, and I didn't realize how wonderful was till I started seeing some of what my other classmate or friends and classmates were experiencing was that I had, have so much help in China.

So you have like two to three live-ins and cooking, you have a driver and it is just fantastic. And so that I didn't quite realize, but it enabled me even as a mother of young children to be able to do a lot of things professionally as well. so there basically what was wonderful for me, I was actually leading

was actually first, I worked in several jobs, but the one that ended was leading the worldwide business development for international company. And so, but what in all of my capacities, what was really important for me and what got me up to speed quickly was to just talk to the people that I was responsible for leading and learning from them. And I always used to think of,

the gaps training and which was, which I understand where everyone has to do like at least one day of every jobs or main jobs, you know, whether it's the cashier or on the floor, et cetera. And so the senior management would eventually learn like what exactly they're doing. And so I've always like kept that in the back of my mind and in all my roles have tried to sort of done, do my version of that. whether it's helping or.

Katharine McLennan (29:45)

Yes.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (30:09)

Like when we have big store sales or things, I would always be the first to say, you know, I have a couple hours, can I help out with inventory? Can I help out on the floor? And just to kind of do things. And that has always been one, think it's, really understand who you're leading or working with. And then also as you're making choices that may have affected, I think that that's really important. And then two,

you as you're designing systems, if you will, that's a lot of what I think a leadership is about and making decisions that affect people. You learn so much more about them by having kind of, if you will, walked in their shoes to some extent. And it's tricky because on one hand, you want to be understanding them. So you come, if you will, I'd like to have lunch with them, et cetera. But on the other hand,

you often see that in certain areas, it's very important to show that you're the leader, if you will. And that's kind of what leadership is about. So I do remember certain meetings when, for example, someone spilled something or might need tea, I'd say, what can I get you? And I would be told by people, no, no, no, do not offer to get someone tea because all of a sudden you're just made yourself like subservient and don't offer to translate just.

Katharine McLennan (31:26)

you

P.Y. Nicole Chang (31:29)

you just have to kind of hold that role. then, you know, so that's, that's, was a learning experience, I'll say.

Katharine McLennan (31:36)

Hold on. So Nicole, as I said, speaks gazillion languages or whatever, fluent, maybe obviously, but fluent Mandarin. so translating, what they wanted you to translate back to English, is that what they were saying don't do?

P.Y. Nicole Chang (31:50)

Well, so in Chinese, for example, there is the word for foreigner as in other languages, it's like the outside person. So why was outside the country person? it's so when you have a Chinese face or an Asian face, right? So sort of you want to be taken as one of them, right? So in certain things, but

Katharine McLennan (32:00)

Yeah.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (32:12)

If you, so if you're seen too close to the outsiders and you you might be sitting on that thing. So I do remember once my husband and I were buying a piece of property in China and I was translating to him and the person that was, were, yeah, I was translating to him and she says to me, why are you helping him? And I'm thinking, we're married and we're buying this, but sort of like, why are you helping that foreigner?

Katharine McLennan (32:26)

in French.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (32:37)

And it just goes that far because sort of like almost that foreigner thing trumps.

marriage, if you will, or in that case, right? So you're always kind of, it's like a balancing act there. know, but was, what was fascinating for me in China, and this is many ways, I think so much all of us have, whether it would just like what our expectations are and preconceived notions. When I first went to China, I was under the impression that this was the China that I had kind of grown up with in my mind.

parents talked about and know, Chinese people are your people and you should, you know, help each other, et cetera, et But what I found instead was that not that they weren't here to help, like there's, there are so many facts, you know, each, whether it's Beijing or Shanghai, they each are proud for their different things. They want to speak their individual dialect with that, but they're also,

not as that, you know, they don't believe in these old Confucius values that I was led to believe. mean, China was really experiencing tremendous growth at that time. And there was, you know, you know, just the just the things like me, there was even a time when they were like making fake eggs, because they could make money from that, you know, so you've talked about a product that's so basic, like an egg, but if you sell enough of them, you make a lot of money if you just make a margin.

So they'd like fake fakes. And I'd have friends who worked in different industries and call me and say, don't drink our milk. Because there was a time they put like, the way milk was bought was based on the color. And so people might put like some paint or some version to make it whiter. And they're like, don't eat my crabs because we put antibiotics to make them live longer or something as we traveled. So there's that of, that's something you experience from fast growing.

countries or economies.

Katharine McLennan (34:21)

Yeah.

And Jesse,

You love what you do, but is your heart called to go abroad and experience? I mean, New York is kind of going abroad, but anyway, what's your passion on that? Because it'd be interesting to reflect that.

Jesse (34:39)

To be honest, I don't know that it's something I've thought deeply about. Nicole, to hear your experience, adjusting to the culture and the environment there, you know. But if I think, about going back to China and trying to work, I don't know that I guess I could do it. Like for the one thing, right, I grew up here. My Mandarin is...

Katharine McLennan (34:43)

Yep.

Jesse (34:55)

I can speak at maybe at like elementary school level, right? But definitely not well enough to do business there. And then, you know, especially if I think about, right, like friends and family and the fact that, you know, my parents came here from China. I don't know, I think there were, I guess maybe still are a bunch of hurdles in my mind to get over before, I guess, pursuing something like that. At the same time, you know, a lot of my family is...

the East Coast, my parents are still in the DC area, my sister also is doing her undergrad in New York, and New York and Chicago are the big trading hubs in the US, so you know there's definitely a lot of guess inertia there that's hard to overcome.

Katharine McLennan (35:30)

it would be interesting for you guys with your perspective, Jesse, and then having lived there for 10 years to reflect on what might happen anyway. Jesse, do you see the or China involved in the industry that the lightning fast trading that that you're in? Or is it is it how international are we talking?

like your competitors, for example.

Jesse (35:54)

Yeah, I think a lot of the high frequency trading firms are US based companies. There are some, you know, kind of that are incorporated in Europe. But yeah, the markets that we trade on are global. So there are, you know, American markets, European markets, Asian markets. That aspect is definitely global.

Katharine McLennan (35:58)

time for

so you have to understand some behavior. I picked up that you loved one of your professors who was a role model for consumer behavior. now you've challenged by saying, well, maybe it's the algorithms. So Nicole, when we were, young, we didn't have those algorithms and instantaneous responses. We were actually relying on people's

somewhat rational and sometimes irrational behavior. So it'll be fascinating for me to see that. And I'm trying to remember it, Nicole, because you were doing some kind of trading at some point. Wasn't that right? I'm trying to...

P.Y. Nicole Chang (36:47)

I used to design

derivatives. I've been Stanley before, right?

Katharine McLennan (36:50)

Yes!

That's right, that's right. Yeah. But how-

P.Y. Nicole Chang (36:55)

If I were doing that

now, Jesse, you're hired still.

Katharine McLennan (37:00)

let's go back to technology, Jesse. So, like I said, Nicole and I graduated maybe prehistoric, you know, like we did graduate when the, I say that the industrial age comes, the information age and with the McKinsey, they love it because they can get information now on the internet whenever they want. But now you're hitting this new weird age with AI.

And so you as a computer scientist, what do you think it's going to be technology that maybe your generation is either going to see the opportunity, which you already are with the algorithms, do you see? I'd love to hear a computer scientist properly. Give me an opinion.

Jesse (37:41)

Yeah, I will say like, it's interesting to look back a little bit on this because, you know, if I go back, I did take some AI classes and did some AI research in undergrad. And back then, like the kind of language models that existed were much more primitive compared to what you have now. And a lot of the other models around image generation were also much more primitive. So over the course of, I guess, you know,

8 to 10 years, right, the amount of improvement and growth has been just completely unbelievable. At the same time, it's also interesting that I remember when I left work to come to the GSB, I think that was right around when Chad GBT was first released. And I remember that was fascinating too. And I was like, if I do want to come back to this industry in two years, how much

will this role change, right? It was a huge period of uncertainty. But then now as I'm back in the role two years later, actually it hasn't necessarily changed as much as maybe I had feared back then. So in some ways the change has been really fast. In some ways it's been maybe slower than expected, of counter-intuitively. I guess my overall thoughts on the subject though are, AI is a tool.

As someone whose job a lot of people say, maybe it'll be replaced by AI at some point. I don't know. Maybe my job as it exists right now will not be there in the future. But I think it's up to us to learn the new technology, figure out how to utilize it as a tool, and then continue to adapt as all jobs do moving forward.

Katharine McLennan (39:17)

Yeah, it reminds me, Nicola, one of the businesses you had not too long ago was the boot camp. And I was trying to remember how that worked because you were teaching.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (39:26)

Yeah, you know,

it's very interesting. we still, it's actually a franchise for computer coding teaching for kids. And so we're going on our sixth year now, I guess we started, we opened 2020. And then the day as we're having our grand opening, just the day before they announced everyone stay home because of COVID or something. So we had essentially a very not so grand opening.

And I got the joy of paying two years of rent, but not being allowed to use the space. So, I'm proud to say we're still here. But it's very interesting, this discussion of AI and Jesse, like with your work and everything. And I'd be curious to hear what you say in terms of growing about this and what you were alluding to these job changes.

One of the things that, so even though we teach coding per se, one of, I say we teach actually the three C's apart from the C of coding, which is I think the skills that every young person needs to, to prepare for their future, if you will. And I say that's like creativity, critical thinking and confidence. Because indeed so many of these new jobs, we don't even know what they will be.

Katharine McLennan (40:33)

Awesome.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (40:38)

So if you have the confidence to one, just try something new, to go into something that's unknown. And then of course in learning, there's like, you do and you tend to fail, right? Especially in the beginning and you just get up and keep trying and trying. That's to me is like the confidence you really need in a very fast changing environment. And so the, one of the...

things I see, which is unfortunate. And so we're really working hard for this in terms of critical thinking is that if you can just like Google anything or chat GBT and ask anything and you get an instant response, it the critical thinking is not there because I think it the the thinking develops a bit from just being one step a little bit too hard, right? And so if the answer is too easy, and you're not even able to think that you need to challenge it, because we all know that

the AI makes mistakes, right? That's sort of a skill that is harder to develop in today's time. And I also think that, you know, even though like people can type and even though you can do speak diction, et cetera, we all know that, or, you know, studies have shown that if you actually hand write it or if you read from a physical book instead of digital, the brain acts in a different way. So,

Katharine McLennan (41:37)

Mm.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (41:55)

I think the challenge for your generation and upcoming ones is really to think about understanding with this new capacity all the things we can do, should we be doing it?

Katharine McLennan (42:07)

Well, that's, I mean,

one of the things, Jesse, you, you guys have been telling me is you're allowed absolutely encouraged to use chat TBT and what you do. with Nicole's point of the critical thinking and the creativity and the confidence, how does that appear in the business school

Jesse (42:24)

Yeah, I think that's a great question. think like that's something that us as students we're all figuring out and then like that, you know, the administration is also trying to figure out is like how to structure the environment so that, you know, we still like are able to develop those underlying qualities right in the face of the new technology. Yeah, I mean, I think the point on confidence is like a really big one. In one of the negotiations classes that I just finished, one of the most important factors, I guess we learned about

being a good negotiator is just like the self belief that you are a good negotiator and that you can be right. Like the self efficacy aspect is important in negotiations, but then also in like all other fields as well. Otherwise you may not even want to try something new because you don't know that you can achieve it. And on the problem solving piece, I think it's a difficult problem because there are definitely classes here where you can get by just by

putting everything into a large language model and then copy pasting the output and you'll pass, right? With how classes and grades are structured here, but you won't get as much out of the class as you would if you spent more time on it. And, you know, maybe you can use, you know, the AI models to help you in some ways, but you know, it can't do like all of the work for you, right? And, you know, I think I contrasted a little bit with how things were in computer science before, like,

We always had Google, we always had something called stack overflow where, you know, kind of like the way I used to joke about my job before was like, you know, you don't really remember how to write that much code, but if you ever need help, you just like, ask the question stack overflow will have the answer. You copy paste some code into your code and then it works, which is like maybe, you know, one step or one version before like a models now, right? Which you can kind of ask now you can just give it your exact problem and it can spit out code that

you know, may work or may be very close to working for you. So the amount of like problem solving that you need to do is, I think, a little bit less than it used to be. And yeah, I don't know if I have a great answer in terms of like how to structure the environment.

Katharine McLennan (44:24)

Well, that's the thing.

None of us know. we're all an experiment. Nicole, the children you have raised are just extremely creative.

the last time I spoke to you, you decided to join your daughter in this incredible creativity initiative that has to do with her beautiful voice. So this is completely different as well.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (44:46)

I'm hoping AI doesn't touch too much music there. think because it is, but it is, yeah, we definitely have explored it because why not? But I think that what we've, because if you will, especially, so my daughter, Jessie, is a singer songwriter producer. And I became an accidental songwriter when just working with her on certain things. And I found

Katharine McLennan (45:11)

as you do.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (45:12)

really loved it. And so we've been collaborating and she's asked me to continue to collaborate with her, which is when you become a parent one day, you'll find that that's a big thing parents want is for their kids to continue to talk with them and appreciate them. the, yeah, so, it is, because if you will, right, AI is really

I think many different definitions of it, but in many ways, it's like the absence of the human in intelligence, right? So, but, and it learns from what's out there. So if you keep, if it, it stays in a closed loop, if you will, then, you know, it's not, there's not going to have huge evolution, right? And already we're, you know, one of the things that, so my daughter, actually, she grew up a lot. We were talking about that. She's influenced a lot.

by what bootlegged CDs or different music I could find in China that was in English, right? So was a lot of Madonna, Michael Jackson, Abba, and that just is what I could find. And then that, she just heard a lot of that over and over. And then she had the privilege of working with someone who founded a group that was like former Soul Train people. So a lot of the music was some of the great legends from Motown. And that...

That music and that energy and lyrics or stuff, just, you don't find that often nowadays. And so, you know, definitely that, you know, back to the AI aspect, it just keeps churn, and maybe we could bring in some older music, but if you turn around current top hits, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, not, you're just going to get the same old stuff.

Katharine McLennan (46:51)

So Jesse, I'm still comforted by the fact that you're excited about going to create more algorithms and there is creativity and there's an opportunity So I'm hopeful that there's still a role for humans. What do you think?

Jesse (47:05)

Yeah, I think, you know, at least where AI currently sits, right, like if we talk about music, you know, AI can create lyrics, can create songs, at least at the current stage, right, there's, I think you can still tell the difference, right, between like an AI written song and where like when AI like tries to mimic, you know, the voice of Taylor Swift or something, like it's close, but you can tell it's not quite there yet.

You know, I do think like it's going to be a bit of an evolution, you know, like I think there are, maybe I hope that there will always be creativity, but it may sit in a different space than it currently does. Right. The creativity may not be applied to exactly the same tools and techniques that we use now. Maybe it needs to sit above AI and, and we need to be creative in a bit of a different way. I think in one of the earlier podcast episodes, you know, someone mentioned, right. Like.

A lot of the creativity now is shifted into the prompting of AI, right? And there's creative ways and effects to do that. So, you know, I think, I hope that, you know, it will always be there, but maybe it'll just look or manifest itself a little bit differently than it currently does.

Katharine McLennan (47:57)

Yeah, prompt engineering, right?

So Desi, I'm assigning you, not only is Nicole gonna hire you, but I'm assigning you another job, which is the canary in the coal mine, because you have to tell us all when AI has taken too much,

Jesse (48:21)

if you see me unemployed, then that's when you know, yeah, something bad is gonna happen.

Katharine McLennan (48:25)

you guys, you're amazing. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, you can just hang out on the yacht. But I haven't met any of our classmates that have been hanging out on yachts. mean, we just I just think our curiosity and your class's curiosity. how do you

P.Y. Nicole Chang (48:26)

Maybe you've done too well, you know, and they've already reached the goal and said, OK, that's enough.

Katharine McLennan (48:41)

sum all this conversation up

P.Y. Nicole Chang (48:46)

Well, think, I don't know, but I could give one of the, think if you were to summarize it in just really a statement of like what I wish I had known then, but more as a gift to you, just in terms of one of the things as you still have a little bit of time left is that if I look back of some of, could say even after graduation, some of my best moments and my friends that I stay in touch with, including people like Kath,

Katharine McLennan (48:55)

Wish.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (49:13)

A lot of them were from the GSB. And I think I didn't at the time realize how special these, I mean, you realize how special everyone is, but in terms of the friendships, the lifelong friendships that form and that, you know, these problem sets come and go, like I barely remember some of the classes I took, but the friendships, the peoples are what really counts. And staying in touch with them, really important because they're gonna be going through

you know, they're professional, they're their families as they have children, et cetera, such important things and milestones in their life. And, know, and there's moments sometimes I wish that I had been in the Bay Area for them, because a lot of people stay in the Bay Area. And it would have been so great if my kids could have grown up with some of my classmates. And so now I just have to, you know, just cherish the moments I did have. But the it is such a special time. So I think that, you know,

That's one thing. And then also the, I'd say the two things that have really always stuck with me is like, you really become like the seven people you're most around, right? So it is great in terms of, you know, choosing, not choosing, but just like the friends that you tend to stay with and remembering, keep putting yourself around the right energy, if you will, within that. And then,

And when you and then the other thing I did learn in the GSB, they always talk about like a frog. If you put a frog in boiling water, jumps out. a frog, if you put in water and it boils, it can boil to death. Right. And so to think about when if there are moments that are. Let's just say on the negative side or something, they're just, you know, sometimes sort of remember that frog and say, OK, I don't want to become the frog that boils to death and then just kind of go back to.

your roots, your friends, and try to do a check there.

Katharine McLennan (51:06)

That so relates. Yeah, gosh, I never thought about the frog. Geez Louise. How many times have I sat in that boiling water that I didn't realize was boiling until it's too late?

P.Y. Nicole Chang (51:11)

Thanks.

Maybe it's because of marriage where French men, eat frogs. So

you're like, okay, don't let that frog boil because he's going to lose his life.

Katharine McLennan (51:25)

Jesse, How would you like to end the conversation formally?

Jesse (51:31)

yeah, I mean, I think, you know, those, pieces of advice are really helpful. time passes so fast and it's so easy to like get caught up in the day to day routine that it's always good to be reminded of, you know, taking the time to like appreciate the people that you're around right now. And, really like making the most of that, being here in the same space together for the next like 10 weeks, right before we graduate.

And yeah, to the frog point as well, like I think, you know, on the flip side, I think a lot of people here are like highly adaptable, right? But then the flip side of that is you don't want to get caught in a situation that's bad for you. And in which case like inertia becomes really powerful too, right? So yeah, I mean, I think really appreciate those pieces of advice. I think one of my takeaways is also just...

how bold Nicole you were in some of your career moves. And I think that's an inspiration for me as well and something that I'll take with me moving forward.

Katharine McLennan (52:22)

thank you so much, you guys. I'm Yeah, go!

P.Y. Nicole Chang (52:24)

Kat, I do want to end with a new

story I heard. And since we were talking about analogies, have you heard about the coffee bean? So this is actually, this is a great one for leadership. So go back to boiling water. When you put a carrot in there.

the carrot boiling water becomes limp. You put an egg in there, becomes hardened, just the opposite of carrot, right? And then the heart becomes hard. But you take the coffee bean, this little thing can influence all of it, the water and its surroundings. And so as we end this, I say we should be like the coffee bean and try to spread our goodness and what we can and

Katharine McLennan (52:49)

Go.

P.Y. Nicole Chang (53:08)

influence and lead however which way, whether we're big or small in the picture, as the coffee bean does.

Katharine McLennan (53:15)

Nicole, that is so why I love you. Thank you guys.