Podcast Ep. 16 Stanford MBA ’95 Jason Lorber meets MBA ’25 David Goehring Freed

Today, I’m joined by Jason Lorber from the Stanford MBA Class of 1995 and David Goehring Freed from the Class of 2025.

Jason is a consultant, comedian, and former Vermont legislator whose eclectic career has spanned politics, activism, and executive development. After earning his MBA at Stanford, Jason founded Aplomb Consulting and later served eight years in the Vermont House of Representatives, advocating for reforms in prison policy and public accountability. As a stand-up comic who once opened for Joan Rivers, Jason now brings the principles of improvisation into leadership coaching—helping teams find clarity, connection, and courage amid complexity.

 David is a second-year MBA student at Stanford GSB. Before business school, he worked at Walmart across capital markets, fintech, and international finance. This summer, he’ll join BCG in Boston, but he’s also building an aircraft maintenance company with his father—a venture rooted in safety, purpose, and generational partnership. At Stanford, David is co-leader of the R-Chucklers improv troupe and has discovered a deep commitment to authenticity and vulnerability as foundations of leadership.

 Together, Jason and David reflect on the power of improvisation as a life practice—from comedy stages to boardrooms to legislative chambers. They explore risk, reinvention, and the art of listening—reminding us that the best leaders don’t come armed with all the answers, but with a willingness to co-create what comes next. 

CHAPTERS: 

00:00 Reconnecting and Backgrounds

01:54 Life Changes and Relocation

04:50 Improv and Its Impact

07:52 The Role of Improv in Leadership

10:57 Navigating Career Paths

14:02 Legislative Experience and Public Service

16:51 Career Choices and Family Business

19:54 Comedy and Self-Expression

30:25 The Joy of Comedy Nights

34:04 The Art of Stand-Up: Preparation vs. Improvisation

37:47 Improv Skills in Business

42:07 Learning from Failure

49:02 AI in Retail: Enhancing Creativity

55:55 Navigating the Current World: Perspectives of a New Generation

Join the Podcast Series
Stanford MBA: From Baby Boomer to Gen Z | Class of ‘95 Meets Class of ‘25

Each of these episodes will feature a different pair of Stanford MBA people -- one from the class of 1995, and one from the class of 2025.

Remember to rate, review, and subscribe to stay connected with future episodes!

📺 Also available on YouTube:
Entire series playlist:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSaVisoF0D_GKxVmHmakNxdpAJCb5_VTP

More info: https://www.katharinemclennan.com/

Contact: kath@katharinemclennan.com

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katharinemclennan/

Chapters

• 0:00 Reconnecting and Backgrounds
• 1:54 Life Changes and Relocation
• 4:50 Improv and Its Impact
• 7:52 The Role of Improv in Leadership
• 10:57 Navigating Career Paths
• 14:02 Legislative Experience and Public Service
• 16:51 Career Choices and Family Business
• 19:54 Comedy and Self-Expression
• 30:25 The Joy of Comedy Nights
• 34:04 The Art of Stand-Up: Preparation vs. Improvisation
• 37:47 Improv Skills in Business
• 42:07 Learning from Failure
• 49:02 AI in Retail: Enhancing Creativity
• 55:55 Navigating the Current World: Perspectives of a New Generation

Transcript

Note: this transcript is generated by AI, so it won’t always be perfect, especially when it comes to: 

·        Incorrect breaks in a sentence (AI hears the pause and assumes a new sentence)

·        Exact word recognition – you may see that there are words that don’t make sense from time to time

Katharine McLennan (01:02)

Today I'm joined by Jason Larber, one of my classmates from the Stanford MBA class of 1995, and David Gorin Fried from the class of 2025, soon to graduate in June. Jason is a consultant, comedian, and former Vermont legislature whose eclectic career has spanned politics, activism, and executive development. After earning his MBA at Stanford, Jason founded a plum

consulting and later served eight years in the Vermont House of Representatives, advocating for reforms in prison policy and public accountability amongst many other issues. As a standup comedian who once opened for Joan Rivers, Jason now brings the principles of improvisation into leadership coaching, helping teams find clarity, connection and courage amidst complexity.

David is a second year MBA student at Stanford. Before business school, he worked at Walmart across capital markets, fintech, international finance, mergers and acquisitions.

he will join BCG in Boston, but he's also building an aircraft maintenance company with his father, a venture rooted in safety, purpose, and generational partnership. At Stanford, David is a co-leader of the R. Chucklers Improvisation Troop and has discovered a deep commitment to authenticity and vulnerability as foundations of leadership. Together, Jason and David reflect on the power of improvisation as a life practice.

from comedy stages to boardrooms to legislative chambers. They explore risk, reinvention, and the art of listening, reminding us that the best leaders don't come armed with all the answers, but with a willingness to co-create what comes next.

Katharine McLennan (02:58)

Welcome to you guys.

David, where do we find you today, which must be Thursday over there in California? What are you up to today?

David (03:07)

Yes,

I am in my apartment near downtown Palo Alto where I've lived here for my whole time at the GSB. I did not live on campus my first year, which is a bit unusual. But I'm in my apartment, I am done with classes for the day and excited to be here.

Katharine McLennan (03:14)

Wow.

Jason, where do we find you?

Jason (03:26)

I'm in Burlington, Vermont.

Katharine McLennan (03:29)

Burlington, Vermont, how do you get to Burlington, Vermont? And I was just remembering you went a very unusual way after graduation back 30 years ago, but how does one get from San Francisco to Burlington in four sentences or less? No, just kidding.

Jason (03:46)

One marries

a man who gets a job there.

Katharine McLennan (03:50)

hahahaha

Jason (03:54)

So it was

either leave San Francisco or leave the husband.

Katharine McLennan (03:58)

no. But was the husband around during Stanford? No. Okay. Okay. You met in 99.

Jason (04:03)

No, no, no, no. Met in 99. So

yeah, we've only been together for 26 years and I'm hoping it might work. Yeah. We'll see. You never.

Katharine McLennan (04:13)

Yeah, well, after 26 years, you never know. It's early. It's

early days. David, one of the things David, you sent me some really cool background. And one of the things I picked up immediately, of course, was the fact that you've taken your wife's surname or last name as you guys say there. Tell us about that. That is so cool.

David (04:17)

Jury's still out.

Jason (04:19)

Sure, exactly.

David (04:32)

Mm-hmm.

Sure. So you said my last name of Gary when you introduced me. My name is now, last name now is technically Fried. And that's my wife's last name. When we were getting married, you know, my last name is hard to pronounce, it's harder to spell. And so it's like never been like the biggest fan of it. I'm constantly like, it's G-O-E-H-R-I-N-G, like over and over again. And so, and my wife wasn't the biggest fan. And so she's like, hey, I'm gonna keep my last name and then.

Katharine McLennan (04:44)

Okay.

David (05:04)

We're like, okay, we're talking about it. And we said, let's both pick a new last name together. We thought that would be like a fun kind of cool thing for us to do. And we were going to take my middle name, which is Scott. So I was going to be David Scott. She was going to be Mackenzie Scott. And this was before the Mackenzie Bezos became Mackenzie Scott thing. So that was outside of that. And we go to fill out the paperwork when we're getting married and the worker there is like, you can't do that. We're like, what? It has to be.

Katharine McLennan (05:09)

Ooh.

Okay.

I gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Okay.

You can't pick your own.

David (05:30)

No, it has to be a combination of yours or hers, like, or one or the other. Yeah. So it's like mine, hers or hyphenated. And so we're like, okay, well, I guess we'll just kind of leave it for now. And then since then, well, the idea was that we would both go and change it together at some point. And then she graduated from law school, passed the bar and she's got everything under her last name. like, hey, Free's a cool last name. Why don't I just take yours? And so I did that this year.

Katharine McLennan (05:35)

You gotta be kidding. You gotta be kidding.

Yeah.

Got it. Got it.

Ha!

I love that David. was like, that's the first where my eyes went. anyway, all right, but back to the Vermont story and maybe and then I'm trying to figure out how you guys improvise in your one of your arts. Both of you have that in common. How does one get from to Vermont? So a husband.

Jason (06:05)

Yo!

Katharine McLennan (06:18)

gets a job there, you arrive in what year, Jason? And what do you do in Burlington, Vermont? It's an interesting place, right? It sounds small to me.

Jason (06:26)

It is. It's

quite small. The entire state is 620,000 people. Yes. So, yeah, we're the second smallest state population-wise. And for those of you who don't know, we are just south of Montreal and just west of New Hampshire, north of New York and Massachusetts. And...

Katharine McLennan (06:34)

wow.

Jason (06:51)

Because that was my first question when he said, I got a job in Vermont. I'm like, what state is that in?

Katharine McLennan (06:56)

That's so funny. my god, that's funny.

Jason (06:58)

So, yeah,

so when I graduated from B school, I started a consulting firm and then he got a job here as a music professor. And so we moved out and I, I continued my business, but I, you know, I, I left my, my heart in San Francisco, at least my business part, you know, or my heart for my business because

Katharine McLennan (07:10)

Bye.

Jason (07:26)

I had employees and it was just like, moving over, starting over. And then I ran for office and I served for eight years in the Vermont House of Representatives. And it's pretty hard to keep a business while serving. And so that went by the wayside. And then when I left the legislature, I started my business back up.

Katharine McLennan (07:34)

That's right. Yeah.

Yeah, like that.

Jason (07:53)

but it was very much different. It was very different. I used to go in and be an expert and tell people what to do. And now I hold space for them and help them figure out what to do. And that's a lot more effective.

Katharine McLennan (08:06)

I love that. Isn't

it? What was the consulting firm that you first started? What were you up to?

Jason (08:14)

So my focus was serving the GLBT and HIV and AIDS communities. And so there were nine of us in what I call a Plum 1.0. My company is called a Plum Consulting. And so that's what I did. And I would fly to clients. it's a very specific niche. And so it was pretty easy to find the clients there.

Katharine McLennan (08:18)

Yep. OK, cool.

Yeah.

Jason (08:39)

and really help them out. but I would often find that they're just not implementing my ideas because they weren't theirs. And, and one of my, the key philosophies of my business now is that people don't like being told what to do. And so everything I do is around helping them figure that out. But I want to go back to what I've done because I don't know how you use this in your life.

Katharine McLennan (08:44)

Cut, yeah.

Nah, good.

That is called... It's in...

Jason (09:05)

So when we had to move from California to Vermont, it was pretty much against my will. I was not looking forward to it. I didn't want to leave San Francisco for God's sake. And so I actually really dug into

this improv practice, you know, I was performing improvisation. went to these improv workshops weekly in Fort Mason. And the concept of improv is it doesn't matter what's thrown at you. You just have to embrace it and make sense of it and and have faith that it's gonna be okay. It's going to work out and

Katharine McLennan (09:43)

I love it.

Jason (09:50)

That's hard when you're moving 3,000 miles away. You know, the business is kind of going to go, but it worked. so I'm really thankful that improv was in my life.

Katharine McLennan (09:56)

You

Jason, and that's why one of the reasons I got you guys together, and David, you are also involved in improv. Tell us a little bit about that.

David (10:17)

Yeah, Jason, I love what you said about like applying improv to the move into life. Because like the fundamental concept of improv is yes and like you say yes to whatever your scene partner says and then you build off of it, right? You don't question it. It's not yes, but or yes or it's yes and so I think that's that's such a great analogy.

Katharine McLennan (10:35)

How did you get involved with it David? Is it? That's Stanford?

David (10:37)

Yeah, I,

yeah, at Stanford. So I had never done it before, but I was like a big fan of going to shows. And I went to like this tiny little black box theater in the basement of a really old building when I was living in Boston. And I would go to their shows like pretty regularly and just had so much fun. And then when I got to Stanford, there was the we call it the art chuckle group, and they were hosting workshops. And so I went to some of their workshops, and they were just kind of like,

you there's like 20 to 30 people that would come to these and they would teach you the fundamentals and we would do very, short scenes together and just kind of cycle really quickly. And I had so much fun. I loved doing it. And I thought there was no way in hell I would ever make the R-Chuckle team. Like, yes, the R-Chuckle, which is the people who kind of like, they have auditions. And so you audition to become a member. So they host these open workshops.

Katharine McLennan (11:19)

The Arch-Uckle. The Arch-Uckle. Okay.

No way!

David (11:29)

but then to become an actual member of the R-Chuckle, which is a play on word of our buckle, which is our dining hall now. So the R-Chucklers, you have to audition to be a part of it. And I never would have auditioned except for the fact that the workshops were ending. So there was like six workshops and I was having so much fun. And I was like, well, I don't think I'll make it, but I don't want to be done. So I'm going to try out.

Katharine McLennan (11:34)

you

Gotcha.

I love it.

David (11:56)

And then I tried out and was fortunate enough to be one of the six people from my class selected to be a part of it. And then have been one of the three leaders of it this year. And it's just been the most rewarding thing I've done at the GSB so far.

Katharine McLennan (11:57)

You

I gotta say, Jason, mean, improvisation has got to be right up, I've been working with leaders as well, you know, for my career. And I'd say improvisation has got to be number one as well. So I believe it or not. in their, sorry, in their capability set, God, that sounds HR, but in their abilities. So Jason.

Jason (12:10)

That's great.

Number one in terms of what?

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (12:34)

I mean, what do you think about that? Because you have been working with leaders. We had such a great conversation four years ago about your work and how you coach people. But how does improvisation come in?

Jason (12:46)

Yeah, and I so, so value that that talk with you, Kath. So yeah. So what I do is I facilitate change. And I do that with two principles. One is that everyone has a magic inside them, or core competency. And the same is true for business. The other principle is that no one likes being told what to do. So it's all about empowerment.

and I help leaders empower their teams through strategic planning, team building, executive coaching, mediation, communications, whatever they need. And one of the things in working with organizations that want to change or that are wanting to be innovative, as we know that they need to embrace new ideas and they can't just shut them down. And a lot of leaders struggle with that. They struggle with

Katharine McLennan (13:26)

David has to know that they need to embrace the ideas that they can't just shut it down.

Jason (13:37)

wanting to not fail and wanting to get it right the first time. And then there's also a tendency of people wanting to be smarter than everyone or showing that they're smart. And it's so easy to shut down someone's idea and say, it won't work because of this. And I know that also as a legislator, it's easy to say, no, that's never gonna work. It's like,

Katharine McLennan (13:48)

Mmm.

Thank you.

Jason (14:02)

So that's why we have amendments to bills. You can make it better. And let's just agree on the problem or the challenge or the opportunity that's ahead of in front of us. What can we do to make it better? And so those that can flex their improv skills and say, all right, let's look at your idea. And I'm gonna suspend my beliefs of the challenges.

Katharine McLennan (14:05)

Excuse me.

Jason (14:28)

We'll get to that later, but right now let's think about the benefits. Let's think about how this could work. And then we'll have a moment where we will get to what are the challenges that you see with this idea. And then we can then think of solutions to those challenges. But if right out of the gate you shut it down, then you're never gonna get anywhere.

Katharine McLennan (14:49)

Love it.

Okay, you need to run for your representative for the United States. okay, next, but David, one of the things Jason and I learned was in a class of, I don't know, 60 people, if you don't improvise and you just come out with a canned response that you've been cooking up for the last 20 minutes in your class, if you don't improvise and

pay attention to what was just said, then it's, we all know that. We can suss you out big time and you're in trouble. did you learn that in some of your business school classes?

David (15:30)

Yeah, I have learned that definitely the hard way. I think one of the feedback I got from my classmates in one of our courses very early on is like, hey, you sound so rehearsed. Tell me what David thinks. Just give the unfinished thought. Just share what you're thinking. It came from a place of real kindness. They wanted to get to know me better.

Like I heard that right away and that's one of the things I wanted to get out of improv is like how do I kind of not overthink things or like take myself too seriously? Like how can I bring out a little bit of goofiness into everyday life? And it's been awesome. Yeah.

Jason (16:09)

David, David,

was that true? Were you canned? Or was it just you sounded like that?

David (16:18)

No, I was canned, for sure. I was thinking about what I was going to say for so long before I would actually say it.

Jason (16:20)

That's it!

Busted.

Katharine McLennan (16:25)

Like,

you can't, like the first year anyway, you couldn't be honest about that. Like we had to all look good. I think it was only until second year that we kind of embraced, this is who I am, know, take me or leave me. But that took us a year. So is that your experience? Yeah, go Jason.

Jason (16:41)

see I never had

never had that pretense which is you know I guess it's a it's a weakness and it's a strength at the same time. Well I have a question for you David so one of the things that we always said in class which just got annoying after a while is I want to build on what Kaft just said.

Katharine McLennan (16:46)

No, you didn't!

Yeah. Yeah.

David (17:05)

my gosh. So some things never change is what I'm hearing.

Jason (17:07)

and everything. Do you do that?

David (17:12)

yeah, that happens all the time.

Katharine McLennan (17:13)

And then you're like, that doesn't have anything to do with what I just said. What? You are building your own skyscraper. You didn't even come over to my garden. Wait, it sounded good though.

Jason (17:18)

Right!

David (17:26)

Yeah,

the blessing and curse of being graded on participation is that sometimes, like people want to say things and like they'll have really great things to say that maybe otherwise they wouldn't have said. But on the flip side, sometimes people are just gonna like shove what they wanted to say like into, know, square peg and a round hole.

Katharine McLennan (17:47)

Oh, I tell you. so one of the things, Jason, I mean, I'd love to talk about the legislator legislation a little bit more. How do you decide to go and do that other than you can't build your consulting firm anymore and you thought, oh, this looks good. So what calls you to the legislation legislature?

Jason (18:05)

Yeah.

Well, okay, so can I can I pause on that question? Because something that you said David just really ranked I want to build on what you just said. So often in class, you know, I, I would just talk so much that people would have a bingo card of like, how often is Jason going to talk? And I was I was that annoying. And, you know, and I'd like to say I've changed. But anyway, so

Katharine McLennan (18:13)

Hold that thought! Yeah, come back.

David (18:20)

Yeah.

You

Katharine McLennan (18:36)

don't remember that, but anyway, okay. No, no, no, yeah.

Jason (18:38)

good, good, good, good. That just says more about your memory. But when I was in

class, I would just like talk out, know, think out loud. And now when I'm facilitating groups, I want to make it a safe space for extroverts and introverts. And what I do is before the exchange of ideas comes, before they break into small groups, I say, here, here's an index card. I want you to write down three bullet points.

And the introverts love that because they get to collect their thoughts before they have to share it. And it's this incredible novelty for extroverts who are like, wait, I can think before I speak? Yes. Well, because I remember like I would be in, know, Strat Plan or OB or Finance.

David (19:18)

He

Katharine McLennan (19:19)

But can they? Can they? know, like...

Jason (19:28)

And I'd just be asking questions and saying what's on top of my mind. And then inevitably, towards the end of class, one of our dear classmates who is no longer with us, Karen Welchek, would raise her hand and Garth Sloaner would call on her and she would say, well, I have three points. Boom, boom, boom. I'm like, my God, how does she do that? And every time she spoke, it was brilliant.

And so we need introverts and extroverts.

Katharine McLennan (19:58)

I love that.

What calls upon you to go into a legislature? I don't even know if many of our classmates became politicians, but what drew you to it?

Jason (20:13)

Yeah. So I'd always wanted to do public service, always. And I was involved in campaigns when I was younger. And then in San Francisco, I got more and more engaged in politics. I've always been a Democrat. And so was engaged in Democratic Party. And I thought politics was disgusting. And it was just gross. You needed money. It was all these things.

And then I moved to Vermont and it's completely different. In Vermont, you have to knock on everyone's door, but that's your campaign. And in fact, my first campaign, raised $8,000. And after I got elected, people turned to me and said, $8,000, what you're trying to buy a seat? I'm like, for eight, what?

David (21:02)

Yeah.

Jason (21:06)

It was just a wonderful, know, so I got to do that. And actually our classmate, Tim Brighlin, took my seat after I left. Stanford MBA in the legislature. And what was did he take my seat, he literally took the chair that I was sitting in.

Katharine McLennan (21:26)

the physical chair. I love that.

Jason (21:29)

Yeah, and so this was a live calling I've always had and I served there for eight years and

Back to the improv question of using that. I don't know if it was so much of improv, but what I found in the legislature was learning to stop asking questions, stop trying to figure out what this person's gonna do or what that person is gonna do, and just sit down and write your own legislation. And...

And be proactive and have other people respond to that. And that was one of the things I took from Stanford, from the GSB was that.

that we could do anything. know, were one, we were much younger. And so I had all that optimism, but also the idea of, my God, this is impossible. This task that I have in front of me, but wait, if I break it down into its pieces, then I can start on component number one and then go to component number two. But if you try to ingest the whole thing at once, it's overwhelming.

Katharine McLennan (22:14)

Thank you.

It's so cool. mean, David, you're going to be having a choice. One of the things you wrote, I mean, there's also improvisation in life. I'm quite good at that. But you've got a choice before you, which you described as a career choice at the moment. So tell us about that.

David (22:53)

Yeah, I've been spending a lot of time about to graduate thinking about how I want to spend my career over the next, long term, but then over the next five years or so. I was fortunate enough to receive and accept an offer from BCG in their Boston office. I'll be back in New England for after graduation. I don't have my start date yet or anything, all that's still being finalized. But last year,

Jason (23:11)

face.

David (23:18)

I started an aircraft maintenance company with my dad, which I've just I've absolutely loved doing and would be like a dream come true to be able to jump into that full time at some point. It's still small and can't really support me full time yet. But at some point in the future, to be able to do that with my dad and like build a business with him would just be fantastic. so, you know, knock on wood sometime in the near future, I'll be able to jump.

fully into that.

Katharine McLennan (23:49)

What calls you upon that, David? mean, it sounds like it would be such an honor to work with your dad, but also aircraft maintenance. What is about that that you both would love and do love?

David (24:01)

Yeah,

my dad's been an aircraft mechanic for the past 30 years or so. The last 10, he's been teaching aircraft maintenance at a city college in Sacramento. there's such a demand for it. You see it in the news all the time, bad maintenance on airplanes. And that's just the commercial stuff. Like this kind of tragedies happen all the time in smaller airplanes, which is kind of what we're focused on. And just to be able to build a great business that

like helps keep people safe is like, think really rewarding. And then also, you know, it's, it's historically been like a male dominated field and kind of, we call it like the good old boys club, kind of people just flying by the seat of their pants and to bring in some structure and, and like, you know, hire really great, talented people, veterans and women that are coming out of the military with like great skills and they just need to be trained.

To give those people a good job is just super, super rewarding as well.

Katharine McLennan (24:58)

how did you come into the business school?

David (24:59)

was working at Walmart for four years before business school. I was started out in a rotational program, which was great because my parents never went to college and so I didn't know what I wanted to do. I got to try out four different things within two years and it was really fantastic. I loved my time at Walmart but realized that corporate finance isn't for me long term. That's why I decided to apply to business school.

Katharine McLennan (25:02)

That's right! That's right!

Did you

decide that over the Stanford two years? A lot of us went different ways because of our two years experience or hiatus.

David (25:32)

Yeah, I kind of learned that while I was at Walmart. There were some teams I liked and there were some teams I wasn't such a fan of. But so I realized that like if I wanted to build a career, the CFO track was not for me because it mean spending a lot of time on some of those teams that I wasn't, you know, I didn't feel like I was thriving in.

Katharine McLennan (25:50)

It's great, David, and I reflect Jason on our two years. one of the reflections I had talking to a lot of your classmates, David, was how creative you are in your career endeavors.

Jason, when you look at your career, it's just fantastic to see what somebody can do with all the creativity in the world to the point where you, one of the things you do is a comedian, which I suppose falls from the improvisation, but tell us about that

Jason (26:20)

So I actually got into stand-up when I was at the GSB and that I think that preceded improv and So the whole thing about well, I guess it was I guess actually it was probably around the same time As a kid and in college I was an actor

And I actually consider myself more of an actor than a comedian. And being at the GSB, I didn't have time to be in a play, much less commit to rehearsal schedules or do the work. But stand-up comedy is something that, okay, I could just go and do a five-minute set at an open mic anytime I want. And so I started doing that.

And then lo and behold, I started getting gigs and I started getting paid gigs and it grew from there.

David (27:14)

when you said you first did it at the GSB, was it a comedy night at the GSB or was it outside of the school while you happened to be a student?

Jason (27:24)

Yeah, it was the latter. I went up to the city and performed at Josie's Cabaret and Juice Joint, which is no longer there, but Margaret Cho got her start there and Leah Delaria and lots of people. Yeah, and it was fun and it is fun. And now I just finished

writing and performing in my first one-man show, is comedy, but it's really more like David Birbiglia or Hannah, Australian, huh? Hannah, Hannah. And it's actually, the whole show is a premise. The premise is when I was 13 years old, when I was in seventh grade,

Katharine McLennan (28:03)

Hannah. Hannah. Hannah!

Jason (28:16)

Mrs. Kleppner gave us an assignment to make a magazine of our future lives. And in Comedy at the Core, the name of my show, I reflect back on who I am and who I've become compared to the vision of this 13-year-old version of myself.

David (28:35)

That's cool.

Katharine McLennan (28:36)

David, What's the change of becoming over those two years?

David (28:40)

I think the biggest change about myself is, I think self-confidence, but I don't wanna say entirely, I can do anything, but more of becoming authentic and okay with who I am and kind of leaning in to my own personality. I think that's one of the big things I wanted to get out of comedy, because I like making jokes, but to really lean into that was like, it was a...

Big stretch at first, but it's been so much fun and great way to bring joy and get to know my classmates. And Jason, the reasons I asked about whether you started at the GSB or if it was at an open mic night somewhere else is because there's this, I think, relatively new tradition now that we are doing GSB comedy nights. So once a quarter, 10 to 15 or so of our classmates are-

preparing five-ish minute sets and are like everyone packs into the classroom. I mean, don't tell the fire marshals how many people are in there, but like we have so many people and it's just like the best way to try it for the first time because you've got the most friendly audience you're ever gonna have. It's a room full of, know, 200 of your friends who just wanna see you succeed and will laugh at almost anything. And so that was my first time.

Jason (29:45)

I'm

David (30:05)

doing standup was on one of these nights. And it was just, it was so much fun. And now, you know, like 20 or 30 of my classmates have done the same thing.

Jason (30:13)

And the skills are so transferable. They're incredible skills for, you know, from public presentation and leadership presence or executive presence to understanding, okay, what's the funny part of this joke? And what's the funny word of the funny part? And how do I land on that? And how do I end there? And what do I strip away? So,

that can help you streamline your communication and really focus on the point of it. It's like, don't need to know all the background, just get to the funny part.

Katharine McLennan (30:49)

But you're writing a script, Jason, so you must do that combination of preparation and improvisation as you read the audience. Is that kind of what happens or is it a script or how does that work?

Jason (31:04)

So I would say most of stand-up comedy is, the art of it is to make it look like you just made it up on the spot. And that, so my crowning achievement as a comedian was opening for Joan Rivers. And I, this was when she was alive and otherwise

Katharine McLennan (31:15)

Yep. Okay. Okay.

David (31:16)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree.

Jason (31:33)

so I got 10 minutes to open for her, and I actually talk about this in comedy at the core, and I worked so hard on it, and then after I performed, someone came up to me afterwards and said, my God, Jason, I loved watching you up there. Did you wing it? I'm like, opening for Joan Rivers, did I wing it? So I just said, yeah, yeah, I winged it.

David (31:56)

Yeah, of course. All comedians

Katharine McLennan (31:57)

Yeah, yeah, Yeah.

David (31:59)

make it up on the spot.

Katharine McLennan (32:00)

Yeah.

Jason (32:00)

Exactly,

it was like the biggest insult and the biggest compliment all in one.

Katharine McLennan (32:06)

Exactly.

mean, isn't that, I find that really fascinating, Jason. God.

Jason (32:11)

The

part the part that is improv is if you if you work with the audience if you do what's called crowd talk or And you just say where you from and then you find a way to work that into it Most comedians are like, my god, I could never do that part But I love that part I love I love both both parts, but you have to be able to like

make the jokes work and sometimes, I mean, you know this David as well, that you're doing a set and then all of a sudden you forget where you are, especially for you and me, Kat. What? Where was I? And being able to then, okay, well, I'm find my way back to the joke somewhere.

Katharine McLennan (32:48)

You

That's when you throw it to the audience. mean, that's the Oprah style, right? So I adore that because that's my improvisation and that the art of working with the audience is just magic, just magic.

Jason (33:15)

But isn't

that, I mean, that's just so fun. when you're in a, cause I just absolutely love business and being able to be in a situation. And you know this as a coach, when people come to you with problems and you're like, okay, what's the right question I can ask them that's really gonna help center them and help them figure out their own path.

Katharine McLennan (33:36)

if I were coaching somebody, that's a great question. What? Like, I don't know. Well, if you did know, what would it be?

Jason (33:46)

love that. It's also saying, you know, so how can I help you? And they're like, well, let me just give you some background. It's like, maybe not. Maybe you just tell me how you can, how I can help you. Cause I don't need all the background.

Katharine McLennan (33:49)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. David, so here's the interesting thing. I'm just trying to imagine BCG, right? I know the environment. And I'm trying to imagine injecting humor and improvisation when your partners are kind of wondering what you're up to because they had such a beautiful set of slides that have been worked at overnight.

David (34:08)

Mm-hmm.

Jason (34:22)

Ha ha ha!

David (34:22)

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (34:24)

So what's your imagination of that experience?

David (34:28)

Well, I think one of the reasons I found it so attractive as a job is like, as I'm prepping for these case studies, right? Like you don't know what they're going to ask you. And so like there's not a slide for everything. And so to be able to just like think quickly on your feet, you know, that think that's what's really exciting to me about it is the challenge of doing that.

Katharine McLennan (34:38)

Yep. Yep.

Yeah, and the fun part that I've got to say, Jason, one of the things working with you guys in the podcast, you know, there is give or take 30 years between us, right? One of the secrets I've learned from aging is I look at you, David, and I think, we're about the same age. know, God, he's smart. I could collaborate with him. And you're looking at the some, you know, almost 60 year old.

going, my God, she has so much experience. I'm just here to say that we're not thinking that. We're like, bring it on. Because I don't know, Jason, I can't see the age difference very well anymore. Maybe that's just deliberate forgetfulness.

Jason (35:29)

Well,

there's the there's the hair. I mean, But yeah, what you were saying, David, so there's all these slides that people prepare. And you want to prepare all those slides, and then you have your 50 slides. But the key is don't. It's not about the slides. It's about you. And so if if people ask a question, then you can say, Oh,

Katharine McLennan (35:32)

Yeah, well, okay, fair enough.

David (35:48)

Mm-hmm.

Jason (35:54)

I'm just going to move ahead to slide 32 or, oh, I don't have a slide for that, but I've already been thinking about my distribution or my pricing. And then you can talk about that. And so what we say with improvisation is you prepare, but you know, it's going to be completely new.

what you get, but you can still bone up on your skills of listening, of yes-and-ing, of being clear about people and places and relationships and knowing about object work where you're miming something. So that's stuff you can prepare, but then you have to apply it. And all of us, all of us are improvising every second of our life.

David (36:47)

Yeah, skill set. Not quite as fun, pays the shows, unfortunately, are putting food on the table, but that's doesn't like when I send jokes instead of rent.

Jason (36:57)

But like with improv, you know, it's not all fun and games. There's really powerful improv that's long form, that's serious, and quite meaningful.

David (37:08)

Mm-hmm.

Katharine McLennan (37:12)

I don't know, if they teach you an improv this, but the power, especially these days of, don't know, like I do not know is wonderful, David. And the consultant in me has learned not to be an expert.

the wisdom that just comes out of nowhere was more important for my consulting clients than any slide could ever be. It's the co-creation. And that's the beauty of what I think.

you can bring. is there a plan for you when you go to BCG in terms of focus and what you're going to be working on?

David (37:47)

Yeah, the cool thing is that I don't have to know right away. yeah, it makes sense that I'll probably do something in retail to get started since that's where I have some background. But with BCG, I'll be able to work across like New York and DC and Boston are all kind of clustered together and the way they operate. And so I can try all sorts of stuff. Like I'm interested in doing maybe some defense work because I have like that aviation interest. So that's something that's really appealing. And then who knows? we'll see what happens.

Katharine McLennan (37:50)

Awesome.

Yeah.

Yep.

But exactly, who knows? Who knows? I don't know, Jason, do you find that in your clients? mean, they got to, it's comfort in, I don't know. That's the challenge. It's a lot of people, as you said, the failure, the fear of failure is a big deal.

David (38:19)

Yeah.

Jason (38:31)

Yeah. And we know that, yeah, one of the biggest ingredients to innovation is being willing to fail, being willing to come up with bad ideas and learning from your mistakes. And those are usually the most powerful lessons.

David (38:48)

I like what Jason said around, you have to learn from the failure and just like, you have to be okay with it a little bit. One of the things we do for the newcomers of our improv group on campus is before the show, we play this game called Bad Improv, because they've never done a show before. They're super nervous. And so we get in a line and we each take turns. We say, go out there, do a scene with your scene partner, and just try not to be funny.

Be as deadpan, as boring as you can. And if anyone on the line laughs, you lose. You have to get out and get new people in. And they learn very quickly that you're going to be funny anyways. You don't have to try that hard, and it's going to end up being funny. it's just a comforting way to be like, go out there, try something. It's going to be OK.

Katharine McLennan (39:14)

It's as hell.

David, I'm so glad that you brought that and you guys are bringing that to the business school because who would have thought that MBAs, the classic MBAs would A, be able to do that and B, be entertaining. Jason, mean, how did you experience the two years of culture at Stanford? Because culture is always phenomenally interesting to me. So it's an interesting little experiment in bringing 300 plus.

Jason (39:58)

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (40:04)

people together to, well, first outsmart each other, but then

Jason (40:10)

Ha!

Yeah, I found Stanford incredibly intimidating. I was one of the few people, I think there were maybe three of us in our class who had a marketing background. And yeah, and so I, I mean, I remember in one of the orientations, said, how many people are iBankers? And a third of the people raise their hand. How many people were consultants? A third raise their hand. I mean, I was a marketing consultant.

Katharine McLennan (40:22)

Really?

David (40:31)

Yeah

Jason (40:37)

That's a different feel in time.

Katharine McLennan (40:38)

We didn't want

to let any of those marketing people in because, you know, consumer behavior, who needs to know that?

Jason (40:46)

Yeah. Yeah, it was it was a great experience. And I Yeah, and I learned that I actually learned what I don't know. And so that and that's what I needed. I I went in wanting to know all the different aspects of business that I would never master or come close to. But now I know, okay, I need someone to help with the cost of capital.

Katharine McLennan (40:47)

All right, Jason.

Jason (41:14)

I'm not going to, I remember the concept, you know, and we're going to do data regression analysis.

I know there's an R and I know there's a P and I know you need an N of 30. But then I bring in other, if I'm doing a survey, like I'm doing a cultural assessment, I'm like, all right, let's do some regression analysis but I ain't gonna do it. Because I want it to be good.

Katharine McLennan (41:35)

You

David (41:36)

Yeah

Katharine McLennan (41:39)

Yeah, exactly. But that's how to build a great team, right? So, yeah, yeah.

Jason (41:43)

Absolutely. And back to

the failing thing. So I love David that you're teaching them. You can't be funny. And then they realize, I actually am funny. I use failing a different way where I'll do an exercise. Like, let's say it's on public speaking. And so I'll get people, it's a workshop of how to have better executive presence. And I'll say, I want everyone to just go around and just introduce yourself. Hi, my name is Jason. Hi, my name is Kat.

David (41:52)

Mm-hmm.

Jason (42:11)

And then we say, okay, that was that was okay. Now let's do it in the most incompetent way ever. And so then people have these very funny self introductions. They forget their names there, you know, you can't hear them or they come on too strong. And I say, okay, so now let's break it down. How did you fail? How did you suck so bad? And then we can understand

Katharine McLennan (42:19)

you

David (42:20)

Yeah.

great.

Katharine McLennan (42:30)

Hey!

Ha ha ha ha ha ha

Jason (42:39)

Okay, that's the thing. I use that thing where I just crossed my arms and made myself as small as possible. Okay, so now I'm aware of it. And if we could fail more often, then we would learn so much more. But we're scared, we're so scared of failing. And especially in the GSB, it's like, my God, there's brilliant people all around me. How did I get it?

David (42:45)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (43:05)

I tell you, and Jason, what's interesting is I maybe purposefully, I do live in Australia. So I chose not to go to the five-year and 10-year reunion. I mean, I was imagining, which is probably not true, that all these self-made billionaires literally in five years and 10 years, Jason, would be talking about their extraordinary success. And I had really

David (43:05)

Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (43:31)

let's just say not. And I was a bit intimidated by that. But they went in. So what's fascinating to me is we graduated in 95, Netscape went public. That became the first real retail browser, believe it or not. A lot of us did not have computers. We had to go to the computer lab to use these huge things. And remember, we didn't have mobile phones. So we had to use these things called

Jason (43:53)

Right?

Katharine McLennan (44:01)

What are they called? The boxes, the box at pigeonholes. you did. my God. Anyway, so, but here's a question for you because BCG and your aircraft business, now you guys in the class, you're entering not the start of the internet, but the start of AI. And what's been interesting to talk to your classmates is, which I'm glad, is that this AI thing is completely confusing to everybody.

Jason (44:04)

had a Blackberry.

David (44:08)

Wow.

Katharine McLennan (44:30)

And so, but you know, let's just talk about retail, for example, David. So what did you see in Walmart? What do you reckon you're going to be consulting in that is asking you to apply that AI kind of mindset to retail? Because that's exactly where one of our classmates went into with eBay. so, leveraging this new thing called internet into the retail world.

David (44:30)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Katharine McLennan (44:58)

at that time, believe it or not, we didn't have e-commerce. So we were still going to the Walmart store. So what do you think in this new world of AI?

David (45:08)

Yeah, I think there's like kind of two things that come to mind. The first is just using it to augment creativity and be creative much more quickly. Like, take an idea, put it out there, and then see what it might look like immediately. I think Walmart just released some news maybe today or even yesterday about they were using it for some type of apparel design and like they're able to like design some apparel really quickly, which I think is cool. I think it's cool because

One, you're doing it quickly, but two, you're also still using your own human creativity, which as a comedian, I really like. Yeah.

Katharine McLennan (45:44)

Okay, but stop there because you've got

two points. So, but this is important for people to hear because you guys are creators and you live and thrive on creativity. So when the typical person in the street says, my gosh, it's gonna rob us of our creativity. That's not what you're finding David. So just explain a little bit about why doesn't it rob us of creativity?

David (46:06)

Yeah,

yeah, I like if you try and use AI to come up with like a comedy set, for example, it's, it's not going to be very good. And, but yet, yet, but what I find it really helpful with is like, I have this concept that I find funny, and I want to flesh it out a little bit, like, help me come up with some ideas, or like, help me workshop this word, like I want a word that like,

Katharine McLennan (46:13)

Ha!

Yet!

David (46:33)

has this sound that sounds funnier, like, oh. Or this doesn't have the exact meaning that I want. What would be a better word here? And so I find that instead of Googling that, I'm able to just get it so much faster, which is really fun.

Katharine McLennan (46:47)

Yeah.

Yeah. And OK, so that's so that's the first point. And I could talk about that forever because I work with GPT all day long. And it's my friend. even gave it a name, you know, like I made up a random name called Dyson. That was probably after the vacuum. But so the vacuum of information. But the second I know on a second point.

David (47:08)

People are like, why does Kat keep talking to her vacuum?

Katharine McLennan (47:12)

The second point though you were going to make, if you remember it.

David (47:15)

Yeah.

The second point, and this is a much more boring point, around data security. When I was still at Walmart, there was so much around like, do not put company information into ChatGPT. And they ended up creating their own AI tool to use internally. And I don't know if it was like a wrapper on top of something or developed, I don't know all the history, but they were like, if you want to use it, you have to use our own internal one to protect our data. And I imagine that's going to be like a huge area of consulting in the future.

Katharine McLennan (47:43)

But Evan, we already created 1984. doesn't everybody know everything that could possibly know about Jason. What do you reckon? Do you even use AI, Jason, in the day-to-day world of yours?

Jason (47:53)

You know,

I've just started using it. I'm so behind the times, but I'd say in the last three to six months, I'm starting to use it more and more. I haven't used it for comedy, but I think I'm going to try it and just see, because I actually just gave a speech to the legislature. was giving kind of their

their pep talk. And because they have one every day. And instead of morning prayer, it's it's called a devotional. But I really talked about listening to each other and how we're all a family and we need to work together. And I put some ideas into I basically just used word and I use the microphone. I just started talking about the different concepts. And then I put it into

chat GPT and I said just make sense of this and it came back with a speech that I'm like what those are actually my exact words you didn't come up with but you put in the right order and it's coherent now and and and then you know it's I would say okay so now take this concept and give me 10 different ways of saying this one sentence and then I'm like and I never got the exact sentence but I

Katharine McLennan (49:00)

Amazing.

That's so cool.

Jason (49:11)

you know, picking apart, you know, option number three and the end of option eight and put it together and say, okay, so now iterate on this. And it actually helps. It's quite amazing.

Katharine McLennan (49:20)

Exactly. I love that.

I love that. it'd be interesting. of the things, Jason, sorry, David, was when we graduated, the consulting firms loved the internet because all of a sudden they could share knowledge. And we had this thing that arose called knowledge workers. They could share knowledge immediately.

Sydney's office could share it with Chicago and all of a sudden we could have the same packs and we didn't have to, create new knowledge. So what does consulting do with AI? don't I just look up retail what do I need you for? That's

David (49:59)

Yeah, hopefully

it means that I'll be spending a lot less time building slides and more time talking to people and building their relationships and getting to know what's going on on the ground level. That's what I hope.

Katharine McLennan (50:06)

Yeah, good. Yeah, I love it. Yeah.

But you also have a very different world, David, than we entered. A world that in politics and economics and sociology, some of us could say is frightening. so how does your class look at the current world that you're entering? And do you guys talk about it?

David (50:34)

I would say open and embracing, I would say that, because I don't want to imply that like, everyone's okay with the status quo, like people are out to like make a difference, which is awesome. And there's a there's a wide range of thoughts on like, you know, is this is this the start of a beautiful future? Is this going to be the end of everything? I have one friend who always asks guest speakers, he goes, What's your P Do?

Katharine McLennan (50:43)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

David (51:00)

Like what's the probability that AI is going to create a doomsday event? he's just like, P doom. But that's how he asks it. I'm like, I don't know if they know what you're asking and then he has to explain it. But it's like, there's.

Katharine McLennan (51:04)

P-Doom.

But what about P

utopia? What's like, can't we ask that?

David (51:16)

of my classmates are very focused on climate. We have people who are so passionate about that. And with the new Doar School of Sustainability doing joint degrees over there, that's really encouraging to me to see people want to take that challenge on. Because I just try and say funny things. don't know anything about any, I'm amazed at how much knowledge they have around that.

Katharine McLennan (51:37)

That's what I love about some of your classmates, but I think the stuff that you're going to go into, David, is just as important. Do not forget that because BCG McKinsey wields a lot of influence in the world and how we cope with that will have some great thinkers. I'm, know, so I hope you never denigrate that, but coming to the end of the hour, Jason.

30 years later, if you had to say something to you as a 30 year old or give or take, what would you tell him? We don't have to tell David because 30 year olds don't listen to us.

Jason (52:17)

I wouldn't listen to me either.

Katharine McLennan (52:19)

Yeah.

You know what mine is? Chill, baby. Chill. That's why. But David, here's your question. I was loving the fact that you want to work with your dad, right? So what does your dad say to you as he looks at your age? Does he impart some wisdom that you've kind of kept that, I don't know, many of your classmates might not have? I don't know many who'd work with their dad or their mom.

David (52:26)

Okay.

Yeah, one of the things my dad told me when I was really young and his dad told him that too, was like, I don't care what you want to do if you want to go like be an astronaut or you want to dig ditches or you know, anything in between, like just go out there and be the best that you can be and do that. And so yeah, I think it's just really beautiful. Whatever you want to do, go do it.

Katharine McLennan (53:03)

Yeah. How cool would that be?

How cool would that be to work with your dad? Okay, Jason, you've had enough time to think about it. Improvise an answer.

Jason (53:14)

So

I'm going to ask or I'm going to answer a different question.

Katharine McLennan (53:17)

Yeah, cool.

David (53:19)

Like a good politician.

Katharine McLennan (53:19)

Good politician!

Jason (53:22)

I would say, you know, I think about my earlier years when I came out of B school, and even in B school, just doing things that I hadn't done before, or no one had done. And, and just being bold and

coming up with new things and new ideas and new chapters of my life. And now I'm grappling with wanting to have that big explosive next idea that's risky and bold. you know, there's the...

I don't know if you said this on one of your podcasts, I listened to a bunch of them, but the thing about how Nobel laureates do all their great work when they're under 30, don't discover anything after that.

they don't want to risk everything because now it's like, okay, I've got my family. I've got my son. I've got my relationship with my husband. You know, I've spent a lot of energy on that and I don't want to do anything that risks that. But but I do want to innovate. I do want to

have a new incarnation of me. so that has to be very intentional. think it's when you're younger, I don't know, maybe you can be more creative because you don't know what you don't know. And now we're burdened by how we think things already are.

Katharine McLennan (55:02)

Love it.

Jason (55:09)

So when I was in the legislature, the first time I ran for office, I could only talk about the problems that we were facing. I didn't have solutions. And so that, you know, I got elected. And then we say like, once you've been in office, you forget how to campaign because now you're sucked into the details of, well, we can't do it that way because of this regulation.

And we forget to say, focus on the problems and together we'll come up with a solution.

Katharine McLennan (55:40)

David and Jason, you have a big role to play because I think improvisation is an art that we just need to inject in everything we do and encourage people to make it up.