2.158 Psychological Safety vs Psychosocial Safety at Work with Peter Brace

Karen is joined by Peter Brace for a thoughtful and practical conversation about the difference between psychological safety and psychosocial safety, and why both matter in creating healthier, more effective workplaces. 

These are terms that are being talked about more often, especially as employers navigate their responsibilities around psychosocial hazards and workplace wellbeing. But for many leaders, they can still feel unclear or overwhelming.  

In this conversation, Peter breaks it down in a simple way and shares practical insights to help leaders better understand what to look for, what to ask, and where to start. 

In today’s episode, you will learn about: 

• The difference between psychological safety and psychosocial safety, and how the two are connected 
• What leaders often misunderstand about psychological safety and the behaviours that can either build or damage it 
• Common psychosocial hazards at work, including overwork, uncertainty, bullying, harassment, and poorly defined roles 
• Early warning signs that a workplace may be becoming psychologically unsafe 
• How leaders and business owners can start identifying psychosocial risks through better conversations and by looking at workplace data 
• Why this is about much more than compliance, and how safer workplaces can improve wellbeing, trust, and performance 
• Simple, practical ways leaders can create environments where people feel safe to speak up and supported in doing their best work 

If you are a business owner, leader, or manager wanting to create a healthier workplace culture, this episode will give you practical ideas to reflect on and apply in your own business. 

Make sure you subscribe to stay updated with new episodes released on Mondays. 

Visit https://www.amplifyhr.com.au for more insights and resources. 

Connect with Peter: https://humancapitalrealisation.com/ 

Or https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterbracehcr  

Transcript

 Karen Kirton   

welcome Peter. 

Peter Brace   

Lovely to be here. Karen, 

Karen Kirton   

thank you. I'd love to know in your own words, what's the difference between psychological safety and psychosocial safety? 

Peter Brace   

Yeah, it's a great question, because we did a LinkedIn post on this topic, and it got the biggest readership and re shares of LinkedIn posts that I have for years. So, you know, it's obviously a thing people are wondering about. We kind of sum it up in a very simple way, psychological safety. It's when it is when it's safe to say and psychosocial safety, it's when it's safe to stay so psychological safety when when you're in a team that's psychologically safe, you feel that you can speak up so you can share your ideas. You can object toward the way things are done. You can speak up you feel comfortable about that. Psychosocial is when the conditions of work are threatening to you. So this is maybe there's overwork, maybe there's bullying or harassment, maybe there's ill defined roles, things like that that cause you psychosocial stress and harm? 

Karen Kirton   

Yeah, I think that's a great way to explain it, because I remember when some of the states first started with the codes of practice around psychosocial safety and people just like, What on earth is that word? And it's becoming more commonplace now, particularly with Victorian regulation, but it's still a kind of a hard thing to get their heads around. So I think that's a great way to explain and they're quite different, but they're connected,  

So I guess following from that, what do you see that leaders commonly get wrong about psychological safety? 

Peter Brace   

a lot of leaders feel they need to be invincible. They need to have all the answers. They need to create a little bit of a barrier between themselves and everybody else. And so those are the kind of things that make people feel a bit wary. So one of the greatest things that a leader can do, I think, is in two areas. One is in a proactive area, the other so reactive area, so reactively. If you're a leader and someone comes to you with some news, particularly if it's bad news, how do you react? So the best way to improve psychological safety is to just wait a minute, calm down and react positively in a proactive way. To show your vulnerability is really powerful. To show that you have questions, the same as everyone else, that you don't always get things right. You make mistakes, you wonder what to do. You know, that kind of thing really helps people open up and feel safe. 

Karen Kirton   

and it can be really difficult in my experience, because sometimes leaders feel like I'm not a counsellor. I don't know what to do when someone gives me this information. So as an example, if someone goes to their manager and says, Look, I've been thinking of self harm. I'm in a really bad place right now. And so for a lot of managers, understandably, they don't know what to do. They feel like doesn't matter what I do here, I'm not going to be in the right so to speak. I don't know how to help the person. So what would you suggest in those sorts of situations, like, is this a skill that we can build and learn? And how should we go about that? 

Peter Brace   

Yeah, absolutely. It's a skill. And from the scenario that you mentioned, that manager is already one step ahead because the person has approached them. I mean, that's a great sign, right, that the person is feeling comfortable and safe enough to talk to their boss about this issue. But with with psychosocial hazards, they're really very similar to any other kind of hazard, right? A physical hazard, right? How do you deal with physical hazards? Right? You've got kind of a hierarchy of controls that you can use, right? You can provide some personal protective equipment, all right? So you know, if a person is facing a difficult role, let's say they're continually dealing with members of the public who may be hostile, what kind of personal protective equipment could you provide them with? You know, that might be things like training. Might be things like regular breaks. Might be things like a buddy. They can talk to my it might be as simple as you know, if the person is facing out towards the customers. Just put a mirror behind them. The customer who's angry can see themselves, and that has an immediate psychological effect of helping them to calm down. They see themselves angry and agitated, and they go, you know, some somehow that helps them to calm down, and that helps to release the tension. There So little things like that. 

Karen Kirton   

that's a great example. I'd never thought seeing a lot of signs these days, you know, since covid Really in, you know, the shops and the airports, you know, treat our people with respect. And it always makes me really sad, because I think, like, what does that mean that you have to put a sign up to tell people to treat each other with respect? So maybe mirrors are better 

Peter Brace   

I think it is because, to me, a sign like that is a bit like saying to an agitated person, calm down. Yeah, it doesn't help at all. And you know that hierarchy of controls, you know the top one is actually remove the person from that dangerous situation. If you if you can do that right? So you might redesign the role so that they don't have to face that psychosocial habit. So there's lots of different things, you know, lots of what would you call them, tools in your toolbox that you can use to help reduce psychosocial risk. 

Karen Kirton   

So if that's kind of the tools, what about the early warning signs? So, you know, is there a way that we can look at a workplace and say there are some warning signs here that it's becoming psychologically or psychosocially unsafe? 

Peter Brace   

Yeah, psycho psychologically unsafe. So, so that the psychological safety being low, then you're going to see things like, the same people always talking in meetings, right? And some people never saying anything. You're going to see things like, people are not going to share ideas. They're just going to want to continue to do things the way they are because they're afraid of being judged by others. And you know, you probably know this, that the greatest source of stress for us as humans is feeling that others are judging us, which is why people hate public speaking, and the fear of it often comes before the fear of death. So people would rather die than speak publicly. And the reason for that is because when you're out there, you feel people might judge you, and that's so hard for us as humans, because we're social creatures, the feeling that might be we might be being adversely judged is really hard for us to take. 

Karen Kirton   

Well, it's the same as physical pain, right? When you look at those fMRI images, and it shows that that sort of feeling of emotional pain is exactly the same from our brains. 

Peter Brace   

Yes, yes, it is. It is. But the thing about that is,if you think about a physical pain you went through, you don't feel the pain again. You think about an emotional pain you went through, that pain comes back to you, it's even more powerful than physical pain. So it's so important to have that trust within the group, within the team. David Rock, who you may know about neuroscientists, you know. So there are five different things you can do to improve psychological safety, you help people feel that they that they matter, that they're important. You give people autonomy. You help them feel connected to others. You help them feel that they belong in that team. You give them autonomy. You know those things. You know, if you can't do all of those, just do one of them, right? Give people a bit more say over what they do that will help to raise things up. Yeah? 

Karen Kirton   

And I think it sounds so simple, doesn't it like you, you hear those things like, yeah, of course, everybody wants that in the workplace, but unfortunately, we don't, don't always see it. Yeah? 

Peter Brace   

And I love the fact that you've got that checklist of five things, because you can actually look at them and go, Okay, how are we doing in this area? Right? Are we making people feel like they belong everybody you know? Then you can start to look at those things in a bit more detail. 

Karen Kirton   

Being brave enough maybe to actually ask your people those questions as well, even in an anonymous survey, yes, because we make great assumptions, too, don't we? Yes, that's right. So where do you see those kind of like hidden patterns showing up most so, you know, things like workload or conflict or communications. Where does that happen? 

Peter Brace   

So, so when you're talking about psychosocial hazards, the probably the most common one is overwork these days that people getting more and more that they need to do. Plus, there are high levels of uncertainty when you got things like AI hanging around, right? What is the business going to do with AI? You know? How is that going to impact me? So, you know, again, you've got things that are making people feel uncertain, worried. Right, overloaded. You know, those are psychosocial hazards and and people who are running a business have a legal obligation to look at those things and go, Well, what can we do about them? 

Karen Kirton   

Yeah, and it's what I've found is that the idea of, how do we assess these hazards. It's a bit of a struggle for some people. And I know, you know, in my business, there are seven of us, a little bit easier that we're a small team, but we did it as a team meeting and just went through the different psychosocial hazards that are outlined in the code of practice in New South Wales, which is where our team is based, and said, Okay, well, like, where does that show up for us right now? If it does and if it doesn't, is there a potential that it will show up? And it was just really, just having that conversation. And I think sometimes it's that simple, yes, but it just, it feels big. Is there a way that you've seen that kind of works well that small to medium sized businesses in terms of really assessing those hazards and working out, where is this happening in our workplace? 

Peter Brace   

I think exactly what you say, it's the conversation. I mean, if the leader is the kind of person that encourages people to talk up, if you've built a relationship with those people, if they're comfortable talking to you about day to day things, they're more likely to be comfortable talking to you about these hazards. You know, one, one of the differences between psychosocial and physical hazards is that they're extremely variable to the person. Yeah, yeah. So a physical hazard, you know, if there's a loose piece of carpet, if someone trips over it, everyone's going to fall the same way and probably suffer a similar injury. But one of the psychosocial hazards that talked about are ill defined roles, right? A job that's not clear. Well, some people love a job that's not clear, right? It's very true, and some people hate it, right? Some people say, just tell me what to do. Other people say, Oh, this is fantastic. I can make this job my own. You know, I can decide how I do it. So, you know, the leader needs to understand those differences between the people and know them well enough to be able to go, oh, Jane, is looking really stressed today, or whatever it is. 

Karen Kirton   

I think that goes back to, you know, where we started. This was that connection between psychological and psychosocial safety, and if you have that high levels of your psychological safety, then you're going to be able to get that information, aren't you? 

Peter Brace   

So that's exactly right, right? If people feel free to speak up with problems, then your level of psychological safety is high, and that's the only way you're going to identify a lot of these psychosocial hazards, is if people tell you, because they're often invisible, 

Karen Kirton   

And I think that for me, when I've been talking to people about this and the particularly Victoria, the regulations in place, it's like you need to do this, not to just tick a compliance box, but because actually, it will help your workplace. Yes. So I'd love to hear your opinion on Have you seen somewhere that you think does this really well. And what does that look like? Do we have, you know, reduced absenteeism, like, you know, what are the kinds of things that businesses should be thinking about rather than I just need to tick the compliance box in terms of doing this, 

Peter Brace   

yeah, organisations that do this well, you know, things like unplanned sick leave go down, right? We worked with an organisation a while back that had high levels of unplanned leave, figured out there was low psychological safety. Found out why, because it was a particular leader that was causing these issues. When that was resolved through coaching. Then those days of unplanned leave went down. So that's a really good example, right? Because people take unplanned leave because they're sick, because they're stressed, and as you know, stress tends to produce physical sickness, so there's a close correlation there, 

Karen Kirton   

And I think it's sometimes thinking about those things and, and, you know, having the conversation, as we said, with your staff, but also looking at the data as well. And you know, what's actually happening at the moment, and, and just being, I guess, a bit brave and courageous enough to look at the data properly. And so is there a picture? Yes here? Yes, true. Because sometimes that can be difficult, even if, you know, there's lots of unpaid leave. Sometimes people go, Well, it's a problem with those people, yeah, versus it's actually an issue here in the organisation. 

Peter Brace   

Yes, exactly right. We, we do have a tendency to blame an individual rather than look at the processes of the systems around it. So it's always. Is wise to check ourselves, you know, right. Hang on, Is it really this person or, you know, let's look at the bigger picture. If you can look more holistically, you're probably going to find a deeper reason. 

Karen Kirton   

Yes, excellent. So what's one leader behaviour that could almost instantly, maybe not instantly, but quickly increase psychological safety. 

Peter Brace   

I think meetings is where it often shows up, and meetings are often where you can do something about it. So in a meeting for the leader to ask questions to, you know, without shaming anyone for not speaking up, encourage people to share and give people different ways that they can contribute. So some people hate speaking in a group, right? Make sure they have another way to communicate. So, so maybe before the meeting, you go up to that person and say, hey, you know, I know you've come from this area previously. I'm sure you might have an idea about this issue, you know. Let me know what you think you can either do that in the meeting or tell me. I'll bring it up, you know. And I love the way some leaders say, Look, if nobody likes it, I'll say it's my idea. If they love it, I'll tell them it's your idea. So, you know, little things like that that will make people feel that they have a voice, that they they matter in the organisation. And that's a huge boost to people's psychological safety. 

Karen Kirton   

I love it. And what about if we look at psychosocial risks, what would be one simple fix to a work design issue that you think that people could take and why that one? 

Peter Brace   

I don't think there's any one simple fix to work design. It's really a matter of looking at that work design through the lens of psychosocial safety. So look at it and go, Where are the stress points here? Where are the points where people might feel anxious, where people might feel uncertain or overloaded, or, what is it right? And talk to people who are doing that job. You know, what is the worst part of this job? You know? What is the part that makes you wish you didn't have to come in, you know? And it maybe there's nothing you can do about that, because it's just part of the nature of the job. But now you know about it, you can look at that hierarchy of controls and go, Okay, maybe we can give this person some PPE that will just help them to deal with this particular thing that's so difficult about this role and that will vary between individuals, so that openness and communication, willingness to look holistically at the role, not blame the individual, but look at the systems and processes around it, 

Karen Kirton   

feels like we've Got a pattern across the two right? It's openness, communication, yeah. So how do you measure psychological safety in the workplace? 

Peter Brace   

There's, there's a few different ways to do this. It depends if you're doing it on the on a big scale or a small scale. You're doing it on the cheap, or if you're spending a lot of money to do it. Amy Edmondson, who's professor at Harvard, is one of the leaders in this field. She's got a list of seven questions that she's put in the public domain. You know, there are things like, you know, I feel my team has my back. You know, very simple questions like that. Any leader could use those questions with their team, preferably anonymously, because this is a sensitive area, but you can do that, or you can have a like a 20 question survey that groups the questions by those psychosocial domains. And you know, that's better for a big organisation. We got a lot of data for a small organisation, asking those kind of simple questions is a very easy way to do it. So if you, if you look up Amy Edmonson’s work, you'll find those seven questions and, yeah, go ahead and give them a try. 

Karen Kirton   

Yeah, I think that's great advice. And in your experience, you know, what are the benefits? I know we spoke about a little bit before, but have you seen organisations that have done this and then have seen those levels increase? What's the difference when the levels increase? What do you see? 

Peter Brace   

Yeah, it depends on why the levels are low. We work with an organisation, multinational, across the Asia Pacific region, and they analysed in quite a lot of depth their level of psychological safety in different offices. And one of them I found was in Japan. The level of psychological safety was high. And you look at the reason for that is because there was a high level of certainty people knew what was expected of them. And. They knew what their job was, they knew their place in the organisation, and that made them feel safe. There's a bit of a downside to that, though, because when everybody knows what they're supposed to do, when everybody has a role to play, it's very hard to get any innovation, because everybody knows what to do, and that's what they always do. So So in a situation like that, high psychological safety might not be the only thing you want to look at, because you can have a very happy team that gets along well, everyone's open and, you know, loving being in the workplace, but if they don't have anything to do, you're not going to get results, so you got to have accountability as well as that psychological safety I call I call it respectful accountability. So it's kind of bringing those two sides together. I'm not sure if that answered your question. 

Karen Kirton   

No, it does. And I think it's great advice to really think about that. And I know, you know, Amy edmondson's original TED talk, she talks about, you know, this is not about putting your foot off performance. You've still got to think about that as well. Yeah, I think that's great advice. So we've spent 20 minutes talking about a topic that, honestly, we could spend days talking. Is there one thing you want to leave the listeners with today, whether it's something that they can do in the next 30 days, or is it something you would encourage people to look into? 

Peter Brace   

Well, there's just a little story that I really like, and it always makes it a little bit emotional. I'm not quite sure why, but it's about Toyota, right? You know, Toyota in the in the 50s, making cars in Japan, quality was low. They were looking at, how do we improve our quality? And one of the things they brought in was the Andon cord. Now, the Andon cord was literally a cord that any worker on the assembly line could pull. When they pulled it, a light went on and the whole assembly line stopped. So you can imagine the, you know, the millions of yen that were being lost because this worker had found a quality problem that needed to be fixed. But the interesting thing about the story is that the instruction to that worker's supervisor was you need to immediately go over to that worker who pulled the Andon cord and stopped the line. You need to thank them for doing that. And that, to me, is a beautiful example of how speaking up can be rewarded enormous consequences from that action. But the first thing that happened was the worker was thanked for doing that, and to me, that's a beautiful example of what we need to do as leaders. If someone raises an issue with us, we don't react angrily. We're not immediately questioning them. We, first of all, thank you for bringing that up. So if that's a story to end not we'll make it that way. 

Karen Kirton   

No, I think that's great, because it's hard, but for most of us, receiving something like that, the first reaction is defensiveness or anger, or no, you can't be right. Or why have you done that? So maybe we still do that in our inner voices, that's right, and then on the outside, we say, Thank you, yes, so that's awesome, and thank you. It's been so good to talk to you today. How can people best get in touch with you? 

Peter Brace   

Best if they go to my LinkedIn profile and message me there, that's probably the best, simplest way to do it. Just send me a direct message if you got any questions or you want to talk about this some more, because it's a topic that I love. I think it's really important. You know, my mission, if you like, is to make every workplace a better place for everyone, and if we can do that together, then that's worth doing. Excellent. 

Karen Kirton   

Thank you, and I'll put the link to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes as well. So for those listening, you've received value from this episode. I'd love it if you can leave a rating or review over Apple podcasts or Spotify, so someone else can find these episodes to help with their business. Episodes are released on Mondays, so click subscribe, and you'll be notified of when it's available. If you have any feedback, questions or ideas for future episodes, head on over to amplifyhr.com.au, or connect with me on LinkedIn and we can start a conversation.