2.160 Inclusive Leadership and Belonging with Deepa Mani

In this episode, Karen is joined by Deepa Mani (for a thoughtful conversation about inclusive leadership, belonging, heritage, and what it means to build a business outside the dominant framework. 

Deepa shares the story behind her two ventures and reflects on how identity, culture, and lived experience have shaped the way she leads. We also explore why diversity should never be treated as a checklist, how leaders can create a stronger sense of belonging, and what businesses can learn from building with intention from the very beginning. 

In today’s episode, we talk about: 

• what it means to lead with heritage without feeling boxed in by it 
• how Deepa identified a gap in the market and built businesses that reflect community needs 
• why diversity needs to be embedded from the start rather than added later 
• how belonging is created through consistency, authenticity, and clear values 
• what teaching and leading others can teach us about vulnerability, patience, and resilience 
• practical reflections for business owners who want to build more inclusive teams and workplaces 
• the reminder that building a meaningful business takes time and is very much a long game 

This episode is a great listen for business owners and leaders who want to think more deeply about culture, identity, leadership, and belonging in the workplace. 

Visit https://www.amplifyhr.com.au for more insights and resources. 

Make sure to subscribe to stay updated with new releases on Mondays!
 
Connect with Deepa: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deepa-mani-cbap-msp-8330773/  

Transcript

Karen Kirton   1:40
welcome, Deepa. 
Deepa   1:48
Thank you, Karen. Thank you for having me. 
Karen Kirton   1:50
Oh, it's great to have you on here. And I'd love to start with when you first realised that you were building outside the dominant framework, if you will, and how did that shape your leadership? 
Deepa   2:05 
Great question. I started, I actually started my dance service education in 2018 and I realised there was a significant gap in, a gap in the sense we've got a lot of dance schools in Melbourne, in Victoria and in Australia, but what I wanted to build is an institution that 
truly impacts on diversity and inclusion, not just teaching dance, but also really inculcating the true sense of identity in people, which I felt there was a massive gap in where I sit. 
That I felt was outside the framework because one of the things that I felt is we start all these ethnic practices, but then we don't really dive beyond our community. And when we talk about diversity and inclusion, we have to actually talk to the whole community, not just your specific community. 
And people will only understand if you have a conversation with them about it. And I think that that was one of the important pillars for me to have in order to have a more larger conversation about cultural practises and cultural belonging and cultural identity. So people actually 
have a good partnership with us. And that's my bit to do for the community in that respect. And the second business, which is POC Beauty, was there was a significant gap I felt as I started my service education. As the community didn't quite understand 
what products to go ahead and use, what's good for me. I found two significant issues in the community and beyond was I've got certain issues based on my DNA or my hormones or my melanin with skin. 
but I don't actually know what to do or I'm going to go get the wrong product because it's the lack of education and both didn't really solve the issue. And so that was a massive gap for me. And the reason it was outside the framework was because the brands were very Eurocentric.  

They were not catering for melanin-rich skin as a default. And that was something that I thought that we've got to do something about it. And that's how the second venture came into place. So both these ventures were really outside of the framework, in my opinion, because they didn't fit into the norm.  

It was always, it was to some extent a little disruptive to bring to bring to the society to say, okay, you've got to look at cultural belonging in two different ways. It's A partnership. It's not a one-sided game. And also in terms of products, we've got to think about, let's look at the people around us.
We're very diverse and are we satisfying their requirements in terms of their wellness base? So, yeah.

 
Karen Kirton   5:08
I love that, and you know that what you were saying about it's about everybody in the community. It made me just think of the last International Women's Day, and I went to an event, as you do, and you look around and there's, you know, maybe three men, and they were all sitting together. And, you know, and I spoke to someone and I said, oh, look, you know,
I think it's great that you're here today. And he said, I feel a bit uncomfortable about it. And so I think that can happen sometimes, can't it? Because people aren't sure if they're welcome in those situations. So I love that you said that. It is about, you know, trying to get everyone to understand diversity and inclusion. Yeah. And so I guess in that theme, what does it look like to lead with heritage without feeling like you're boxed into it. 
Deepa   5:53
Look, I think it's very empowering. Your true identity is very unique regardless of where you come from. And once you honour that, a lot of doors and opportunities are open because you become very authentic. The things you say, the partnerships you try to go for, the conversations you have, the people you attract, everything shifts for you.
And I think that's important. And the sooner we start that practice, the better it is for us in terms of what we want to achieve in your life. I think I hold my heritage very close to me. It is who I am. It has defined who I am, and it continues to redefine me. And I find comfort in that. At the same time,
I'm also happy to have those uncomfortable conversations because I know who I am. And it hasn't, it was not a switch for me. It took time. It took time to understand, particularly someone who's lived in three continents, moved three times, stopped, started life. It took a while to practise that. And I think I really
Having that strong foundation and tapping into that really helped me to have that grounding. 
Karen Kirton   7:04 
And starting a business isn't easy and you've decided to start two.  

So, I wonder, particularly with POC Beauty, you know, what were the first moments that told you this isn't just my experience and it is a market gap? How did you decide to dive in and do something so brave, like start this brand new business when you're already running one? 

 
Deepa   7:32
I know, that's people thought I was super crazy. And from what you said before, I think if anybody wants therapy, they just need to start a business. That's probably the best way to put it. No, it's been very informative and eye-opening for me with my second venture because it was not just one instance, it's multiple instances. 
Karen Kirton   7:40
Yeah, so true. 
Deepa   7:52
just to, at a very early stage, I started to perform on stage because of my dance practice. And I struggled to have products that suited my skin. And I've got a tropical sort of, I come from a tropical place. I was born in India and I moved continents early in my growing years. But my skin was very different.
I've got a certain amount of melanin. And now, you know, as I'm ageing wisely, the dryness in a lot of things are happening. So shade matching was harder. And I felt the same thing with my community, with my students. They were struggling. And when you're a little bit more darker, it becomes even more harder because the melanin really works very differently.
And so I, and then the other problem was skincare. So because the market is very Eurocentric, the skincare ingredients don't really suit us because our melanin is actually a good thing. It protects us from the sun. It helps us to age slowly. But on the flip side,
there are only certain ingredients that actually go well with the skin. And when we were, when I was applying certain ingredients, I actually couldn't, it was not doing what it meant to do. And that was my call to say, why are we, why do we have to compromise every time on a big item like wellness? Because our skin is the most
largest organ in the body. And if we don't put the effort both inside and outside, it's only going to cause a lot of trouble as we get older. So those were the times when I thought, okay, I looked around, I did my research.
We didn't have much. Foundation shades came in probably five years back, five to six years back with the darker shade. But that was only one problem, right? But skincare was a huge, particularly in COVID when everybody were actually investing in a lot of skincare and less makeup. It was more important. And this idea was, you know,
sort of really piling up on my head during COVID because I was struggling to get the skincare constantly, you know, closed doors, locked up in, it's just hard to find the right products. And that's when I thought, okay, I'm just going to give it a go and really use my cultural practises to see if I can bring in some
Ethical ingredients are really seriousness into formulation that's going to help alleviate some of our growing issues. 
Karen Kirton   10:15
I think that's excellent. And I've heard you talk a lot about diversity and making diversity the default. So what does that look like in practise to you in your business or other businesses? How can people make diversity the default? 
Deepa   10:31 
Oh, that's such a beautiful question. Look, I think diversity has to start from the get-go. It cannot be a checklist. It can't be one item. It can't be tokenistic. It's for any organization, whether it's a business or it's a corporate organization. You've got to start in your planning stage about who you want to invest in. So when it comes to my venture, POC Beauty, Proud of Colour Beauty, we start diversity at the very get go from the formulation. So when we sit down to work out a brief on a product, we're actually looking at what are the ingredients that we are going to talk about, invest in that are melanin rich friendly. 
because that's the problem we want to solve. We niche it down. And then from there onwards, wherever we talk about during the, you know, from the seed to shelf, from the campaigns to the social media representation, to myself being the founder representing the brand, to every conversation, we are incorporating 
the diversity factor. And it is so important that it is carried all along through the journey. So when you see the outcome, you know nothing different. And I think that's very important for organisations to make it as part of their practice, not just a check.  

from, you know, from time to time, because that's very vivid. It's quite clear to people. People are not, you know, stupid. They actually know when you're actually feeling the diversity versus just sort of ticking the box. 

 
Karen Kirton   12:05 
Yeah, absolutely. Which kind of takes us to, we talk about diversity, we also talk about inclusion and inclusion, you know, goes into that sense of, you know, belonging. So how do you create that sense of belonging around your brand and your community with your dance as well? And you know, what can other 

business leaders and workplaces learn from that. 

 
Deepa   12:30
So, I mean, I'm still learning, so there's a lot to explore in this space. I think you've got to be really authentic and very honest about what you want to put out there. And in my case, both my businesses are rooted in heritage and culture. So I just, that's my core value.
When it comes to Chandralaya School of Dance, it's all about making sure that it is about cultural inclusion, cultural immersion, having a good sense of identity for anybody who's coming into our school to learn this beautiful art form from the start. It's about, I sit in a lot of panels and speak.
I talk about how important it is to really honour your roots, because that really gives you a lot of confidence about where you belong. And when you represent yourself in a place that doesn't quite have people who look like you, your cultural confidence is your torch. And that's something I
speak about it. I practise that in my daily life. When it comes to POC Beauty, it's the same thing. It's we are building it for primarily for people who are who have coloured skin. It doesn't mean it's not inclusive for everyone, but we want to make sure we're solving a particular issue.
That is a massive gap in the market. And so whenever I talk about it, that thread is always in my DNA. And I think that is so clear. And when people see us and when they have multiple touch points, that thread carries them into the conversion and it resonates with them.
And I think it's important to carry that thread, whether it's two or three values, you just carry that thread throughout very consistently, and that speaks volumes about what you're building. 
Karen Kirton   14:19
Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned your dance school just then as well, and as part of your dance school talks about exploring and celebrating heritage through creativity. So can you talk a little bit about that and how do you build that in that community? 
Deepa   14:37
We have a certain structure that we employ when we teach something like an art form. It's about certain core values. So I call it a deeply transformational process. Because when we teach an art, I always tell my students, the art is the icing on the cake.
But what we're really feeding in is all of those values which are completely character building. So we're teaching values of resilience, consistency, discipline, which is self-love to me. All of those values get built in the curriculum as we teach the art form. So when a student graduates, which is a long time,
Like when they are.
you know, late teens or 20, they then realise how they've transformed from the start to where they are now. And I think that's important for people to understand. So anything in life is possible if we can have some core values established in our life. And that comes through learning something consistently.
Even cultural belonging, even cultural immersion requires you to consistently practise it. It's like going to church on every Sunday. That's a practice. It's like brushing your teeth. It's a practice. So I always say life is a practice. So it depends on what you want to practise that actually makes you a certain person. an individual with this personality. And the other things we do is actually we talk about holistic wellness. When you're learning an art form, and that's really how I started POC Beauty, is you start to take care of yourself inside out. You start to make choices about food, about activities, about conversations, about your energy. All of that is wellbeing verticals that we want to tick off slowly. And those things attribute a lot to your, to you becoming a new person. So that's why I call it a very transformational process. 
And it requires a lot of discipline, it requires a lot of consistency to keep in that journey. So we try to motivate all of our students to continue that journey as long as possible so they can reap the benefits, you know, down the line. 
Karen Kirton   16:54
I love that. And I think it made me think about, you know, when you're teaching others, your people think about, okay, well, what are you imparting and how are you building their confidence and their identity? But it must happen the other way as well, right? Like what is leading or teaching students taught you? 
Deepa   17:11 
To be a better teacher, to be honest with you. I think they challenge me a lot. They don't realise they challenge me. The questions sometimes they ask, I didn't ask that when I was growing up and I'm starting. The way I was taught is completely different to the way I am teaching these days.  

And I think it's also important to adapt to the new generation that you're teaching. I also teach the “Whys”. They're equally challenging in the sense they challenge you to ask the Why. And sometimes I've never asked the WHY. Why? I don't know. So, and when they ask me the why, And I'm quite honest, if I know the answer, I give it to them, otherwise it takes some time to research. And that makes me, puts me in a vulnerable position, which I'm actually starting to be comfortable with, because I don't want the person to think that the teacher is perfect. 
Because perfection is something that we're not aspiring for. We're having this relationship in such a way that is a very amicable relationship that is transforming the individual through mutual understanding. And so 
I'm quite okay to be vulnerable in front of my students and actually say, I don't know, because I'm also learning as to how to teach this concept very differently to them. So it really, so their muscles understand this new thing. And I think it's also given me a lot of patience. 

 
Deepa   18:44
Patience and also resilience. When COVID happened, this was the most hardest thing to do is to run the entire school for 2 1/2 years online. I had to really shift the game in my head first before I could help my students survive this 2 1/2 years.  

It's a lot of resilience, it's a lot of cultural adjustments to make sure that what you're saying is actually truly going to be received in a way that you want it to be received. And flexibility, adaptability is something that I've acquired over the years. Yeah. 

 
Karen Kirton   19:21
Yeah, it sounds like a lot of, you know, what you're talking about as well, you know, applies to leadership just the same as it does to teach. So you write like that, you know, the vulnerability, the resilience, patience, you know, all of those things. So for other, you know, business owners and leaders that are listening to this, you know, if they want to start building a workplace and a team where people will feel like they belong and start being a bit more intentional about that. What are your thoughts around small steps that they might be able to take this week? 
Deepa   19:54
I think the first thing is intention. They really have to be very clear on what the intention is. And second, I think they should always be aiming to recruit or building a smarter team. I always think the best leader is not the smartest in the room.
And I think a lot of leaders have to understand that if you want to, and a lot of really good leaders do get that, that's why they are where they are. And for corporate areas, for example, they really have to hone in on that and say, you know, I need to have a smarter team better than me, and I just have to do the leadership role. That is 
the only responsibility. I do not have to solve the problems because that's why I've employed the team. So it is really empowering the team every single day. And that is a practise that the leader has to employ within themselves first.
And yeah, then I think the next thing, the only other thing I can think of is what is that one soft skill as a leader that you want to really change and make sure that is quite powerful in you as a leader? And that can happen one soft skill at a time. So work on one soft skill to get you where you are. Because I think leadership is all about soft skills. It's all about how you tame yourself in that high moments of pressure. It's not about being smart all the time. Absolutely not. If somebody has said that, that is not a good advice. 
Karen Kirton   21:15
Yes, and I, you know, I couldn't agree more with what you say about, like, when you're a leader, like, that's actually just your job. And other people can do the things and do the stuff, but your job is actually to lead them and to help them to get better outcomes.
Final question that I ask everybody, it's a bit tricky, but if you could go back in time, is there one thing that you wish that you knew about running a business or leading a team that you've learned since, that you wish that you knew Much sooner? 
Deepa   22:07
Oh man, that is a loaded question, Karen. 
Karen Kirton   22:11
So the reason I like to ask it without notice is because it's usually the thing that pops into your head first is the answer 
Deepa   22:12 
Um... 
it takes time. 
To build a business. 

It does not happen overnight or in a month or in a year. It takes time and you and that you are in this.
In for the long haul.  

that, and I wish I kept telling that more. I realise now with my first venture that I'm constantly telling myself for the 2nd venture, but I do, I wish I knew that a bit earlier. I would have managed my expectations a little bit more. So you are in the long haul for this. You have to wait it out. 

 
Karen Kirton   22:55
Thank you.
Yeah, no matter what the influencers tell you, it doesn't happen overnight. 
Deepa   23:03 
No,.Those things you see that have gone viral, if you tap into their journey, they would have sat on it, building it for three years at least. So you've got to realise that the sooner you realise that, you can really amplify your throughput in such a way that you're not stressing yourself.  

And I think that's, yeah, that's what I would tell myself. 

 
Karen Kirton   23:26
Yeah, I love that. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me today. We will put the details for your businesses into the show notes, but is there a best way to get in touch with you? Is it LinkedIn? Would that be the easiest way? 
Deepa   23:28
Yeah.
Oh, that would be that would be the best way if, yeah, LinkedIn would be really good, yes. 
Karen Kirton   23:39 
Excellent. So we'll put that into the show notes so people know how to get in touch. And again, thank you for coming on today. For those that are listening, if you've received value from this episode, I'd love it if you could leave a rating or a review over Apple Podcasts or Spotify so someone else can find the episodes to help with their business. Episodes are released on Monday. So if you click subscribe, you'll be notified 
of when it's available. Thanks so much for joining. If you have any feedback, questions or ideas for future episodes, head on over to amplifyhr.com.au or connect with me on LinkedIn and we can start a conversation.