Breaking Barriers with Admiral Jan Tighe

The episode of 'Courageous Conversations' features Admiral Jan Tighe, the first woman in U.S. Navy history to lead a numbered fleet and pioneer the future of cyber warfare. Admiral Tighe discusses her path to becoming a three-star admiral, her experiences in the Navy, and the challenges she faced in a traditionally male-dominated environment. The conversation highlights her leadership style of quiet authority and how she successfully navigated complex global challenges. Now retired, she continues to serve on corporate boards, exemplifying the power of resilience, courage, and innovation in leadership.

This episode is brought to you by AceUp and Produced and Edited by Buttered Toast.

Transcript

Admiral Tye's Career and Achievements

Understanding Cryptologic Warfare

Transition from Military to Civilian Life

Rising Through the Ranks

Navigating Challenges and Scandals in the Navy

Gender Integration at the Naval Academy

Balancing Family and Career

Intellectual Rigor in the Military

Planning the Transition

Exploring Resilience

Leadership and Vulnerability

Mentorship and Legacy

Reflections and Gratitude

0:04

What does it take to become a three star admiral, lead a numbered fleet as the first woman in U. S. Navy history, and redefine the future of cyber warfare within the National Security Agency? Well, Admiral Jan Tye knows the answer, and this is a story you don't want to miss. From commanding thousands of people around the globe to breaking barriers in cryptology and technology, Admiral Tye's journey is nothing short of extraordinary. Welcome to Courageous Conversations. Today, I have the honor of talking with one of my former senior colleagues, Admiral Jan Tai, a trailblazer who climbed to the top of the Navy while revolutionizing how we approach information warfare and national security. As a cryptologic warfare officer, she's not only navigated the most complex global challenges But she's also paved the way for future generations of leaders, showing the power of courage, resilience, and innovation. Now retired, Admiral Tai is continuing to serve on corporate boards for giants like Goldman Sachs, the Huntsman Corporation, Progressive Insurance, and the Mitre Corporation. Admiral Tai has a Master of Science degree in Mathematics, a PhD in Electrical Engineering, and a Ph. D. in Electrical Engineering. And delivers a call to action for you to embrace bold leadership and tackle challenges head on buckle up. This is one conversation. You don't want to miss. According to my watch, it's time for a courageous conversation. Admiral Tai, welcome to Courageous Conversations. Thanks so much, Paul. Great to be here. It is my true honor to have you on today as my first guest in this podcast series. I just have so much respect for you and hold you in such high esteem. Ditto, Paul. You're a cryptologic warfare officer and not people know what that is. And so how do you, how often do you get the question, what is a cryptologic warfare officer and how do you answer it? Well, I get it quite a bit and, uh, I have to start by explaining it's not about maps. Um, and I try, it's still, it still sounds like gobbledygook to people who weren't in the service or in the National Security Agency or the intelligence community, but officers that are cryptologic warfare officers lead signal intelligence missions, electronic warfare missions, and now cyber missions. And they do those missions on behalf of either the Navy or We're a joint commander, we're the national security agency. In the most simple terms, it's, it's intelligence, it's warfare, it's cyber intelligence, it's cyber defense. It's cyber offense. It's a lot of fun, actually. And you were in for 34 years. Yes, I was after the Naval Academy. I was in for 34 years. And at the Naval Academy, did you come out of the Naval Academy as a Crippie? Yes. Oh, you did? It was just called cryptology at the time. So really nobody knew what that was. So before I ask you about your career, I'd like to touch upon your transition since retirement. There have only been a handful of three star admirals in the 249 history of the U S Navy. And you are not only one of those admirals, but you are also the first female to command a numbered fleet. And you are the first female cryptologic warfare officer. And I wonder how it feels from going to having a flag flown in every building that you walk into to now you're just, you're not Admiral Tai, you're Jan, right, to the population. How does that feel? Yeah, it feels great. In those times when I was traveling and had the flag flying, it was very humbling. It was particularly at places like the headquarters or like any of our commands around the globe. It meant something. Naval postgraduate school, seeing my flag fly there, it's, it gets you right here. But at the same time, I think in the transition, it's been terrific. In fact, I, I try not to make anybody call me, make, I try to ask people not to call me Admiral. I'm just like everybody else. I get that everybody knows that I'm a retired Admiral, but I think I think there's a surprise factor in terms of who I am, getting to know who I am, versus the expectations of what a female flag officer might be like. I don't sit in the back seat of my car and wait for somebody to drive me. I am perfectly capable of driving my own car, those kinds of things. I hope to think that I'm not high maintenance just because I was treated very well as a flag officer. Tell me about the day that you found out you were going to be admiral and then when you got pinned, because I was there when you got pinned to captain or when you got promoted to captain with your husband and your two kids. Yeah. Well, let's just say I had a very persistent boss by the way of General Keith Alexander, who basically tried to interrogate every Navy flag officer once my flag board had met. And the Navy is very, pretty good at keeping secrets. And so he wasn't getting anywhere, but I was actually out of the building with my daughter at a doctor's appointment. And I just got the bingo, wink, text, that's all I got. And I knew what he meant. I knew what he meant at that point. So, so that was pretty exciting. And then, of course, he pinned me at the National Security Agency. And mom and dad and the whole family were there. So. it was shocking and exciting and scary all at the same time. Yeah I can imagine. That's such a huge jump. You know from 06 to 07 and then 07 to 09. I mean I heard you got your third stone and I was like holy smokes she, Was just a one star, like four or five years ago, just rose right up the ranks. It does tend to happen fast. The path to two stars with a board picks you based on time, but then the path to three star is the Navy decides. you're the person to go into the job. So when the Navy decided I was going to play Cyber Command, I was actually still filling in at the Naval Postgraduate School, still wearing one star, right? I'm still wearing one star. Board might have reported out that I was going to be on the two star list, but they told me I was going and I was going to be, uh, Admiral Rogers deputy until he fleeted up to NS to be the NSA commander. And so that's what I did. It was, I think between December of 2014 and May of 2015, I went one, two, three stars. Wow. What was it like to get the third star? Well, it's a whole different society inside of the Navy, right? Totally. The three and four four stars, the four stars are their own thing. The three and four stars are considered the leadership of the Navy. So you start being included in a lot of discussions and think about that. At the time, 20, 2014, we were dealing, we were thick in the throes of the Fat Leonard scandal. If you, you know, we went from when I was a junior officer, the whole tailhook scandal to then the fat. And I almost think the fat Leonard scandal has been more detrimental to the Navy than then even tailhook, if you can believe it, but it affected a lot of lives and clearly if you are an officer who were not upholding the values and principles of the Navy, it should have affected you, but I think a lot of people got swept up. When the actual evil man went, became whistleblower and a lot of names got forwarded that weren't necessarily, we're just in the wrong place at the wrong time. And so it damaged a lot of careers and it was very difficult for the Navy to. to deal with between the Department of Justice and Congress not wanting to see any names on that list. It was a challenging time. So entering the three star ranks and then listening to the Chief of Naval Operations talk about how we're going to get to the other side. And we're about at the other side now because everyone is gone who probably were implicated and he just got sentenced. Oh really? Yes, he just got sentenced. So. Wow. Yeah. So anyway. Wow. It was a different, you felt different. You felt like the adult, one of the adults in the room for some reason. It was exciting. Yeah. It's a big deal. It, what strikes me is with a third star, you have so much, as we've said, you get a flag flown, you do for one as well, but as a third star, you're really a senior leader. And what I know from your leadership style, having worked with you is. authority. You're not a screamer. You don't have outbursts of anger. I've seen you get upset, but you have quiet authority. And I'm curious as a senior female leader in the military, how did you learn to harness that power to influence decisions and work with male colleagues who there's I don't know. That's the question. Yeah. I think if you're talking about peers, there were certainly some big and important projects for the Navy that we undertook from Fleet Cyber Command to try to make the Navy better and more resilient to cyber attack. Um, that was a lot of conversations with my peers and the four stars. The good news is I came from the CNO, go do this, and I'm like, okay. But there was also a bit of wooing, trying to make people understand how important this demonstration would be. And they said, Oh, we know we're vulnerable. Just go fix it. I said, we don't know enough to go fix it. And, oh, by the way, it wasn't really my job to go fix it, but anyway, it was certainly a lot of peer to peer conversations that required patience because some of the peers are, we're streamers, required patience and persistence. And truly this project came from a Navy Lieutenant. He led it. He put the money together to go create the demonstration, and I was sort of his foil, if you will, with the Navy leadership. And that was exhilarating. I take the heat, you go get the glory. And he did. And I was so proud of him and the team and, but it took, it took some throwing my weight around with my peers. And so even though the CNO was all behind it, I tried not to invoke, invoke his name. And we had to figure out how to do it. where they would be embracing of the result and willing to move forward with a better plan to secure operational technologies in the Navy. You know where that Lieutenant is today? Oh, yeah. I know exactly where he is. He just retired. He just retired as a commander. He's been in the White House on the cyber staff. He's been in a lot of different places and he's going to do great things great moving forward. Yeah, that's great. So I want to take you back to when you attended the Naval Academy, 1980. It had only been four years since women were first admitted, and gender integration really wasn't happening. This was long before mental health and the effects of stress. And I'm wondering, what led you to go into the Naval Academy, and how did you know you could do it? Okay. Well, first of all, I've always struck with The Road Less Traveled, Robert Frost, our own, our own poet, and it certainly was The Road Less Traveled, and I think my parents are both teachers. My parents made me believe that I could do anything that I set my mind to. Their friends would say, We all told our kids they could do anything they want. Your kids actually believed you. So I kind of went into that good night and I, I believed I could do it. And I believed that which didn't kill us made us stronger. And it was quite an interesting time in my life as an 18 year old. You're not the most confident person in the world at 18. Learning who you are, what your touchstones are, what matters to you. While there's a lot of nonsense going on, Lord of the Flies type nonsense, not, nobody was killed, but you know what I'm saying? Just like buffoonery and hostility really towards having women invade the bastion of the United States Naval Academy. So, I mean, that's a big deal. And so how did you know how, how did you get through it really in those dark days? Well, I think first of all, the way you take it on matters. So at 18, I was dipped into a complete, almost completely male. And at the time the women didn't know how to support each other and thought if we did. It would, it would make it harder for us to fit in, not easier. We know that was wrong at this point. Like we know that we could have been more supportive of each other and maybe had an easier time. But I think I just normalized to some extent being in a male dominated environment, which worked out since I had another 34 years coming. And, and I think not focusing on. gender differences and bias and not looking around every corner for somebody treating me this way or that way. And that's not to say that it wasn't there. It was there. And it's also not to say that I took a bunch of grief laying down because I did not. I was not going to be anybody's victim, but I didn't go seeking it. I, sometimes if I had trouble with a classmate or even once I was in the fleet occasionally, I like, I can't figure out why I don't have good communications with this person. Somebody would say, maybe it's a woman thing. And you'd have to hit me in the head with that. Cause that wouldn't be my first thought. It just wouldn't be my first thought. So somehow just sort of normalizing it, getting out of the experience, what I could get out of the experience, learning from it. Is how I kind of plowed through that period of time. I learned a lot, learned a lot about human nature, learned a lot about myself. And so I don't regret a minute of it. I really don't. What I love about what you said is, you know, you didn't go looking for it. You realized it was around you, you acknowledged it. And you said, I'm going to move forward and plow forward with this. Yeah. And I'm going to make the best of it. Yeah, it's really interesting to, yeah, years later, some of the sort of worst women hater, for lack of a better word, the shipmen that were at the Naval Academy became fathers of daughters and realized they were so sorry for what they did to us and how they treated us and hope no one ever treats their daughter the way they treated us. So that was also very interesting to get those kinds of apologies when you run into some of those people on the fleet. Did you ever as an admiral see a peer that was in your class? I'm sure you were the highest ranking officer from your class. Yes. No. Um, actually, well, I, when I was in the Navy, I had another Admiral Aquilino who just retired from Indopecom is my classmate. So we were three stars together at the Pentagon when I retired before he became a four star. So at the time we were the most senior, but yeah, but he got the four star nod. So. Okay. Yeah. But I don't, I can't say that those were early days, young JO days when you'd run into people like that. I can't say that there was any of that later. I did see truly frightening upperclassmen. Not people who were, you know, mean to me because I was a woman just because they were like really flamers. That's what we called them. I would see them and that would be a really interesting experience because we'd be peers or whatever. And actually one of them came to the cryptologic community and that was, It's very bizarre because it's really hard not to have that visceral response to someone who stood in your face and screamed. That was his job. It's a natural response. So tell me, you, you hold a PhD in electrical engineering, a master's degree in applied mathematics. You studied Russian at the Defense Language Institute. And I read a quote from you where you said you had a difficult time transitioning out of an operational environment into the Naval Postgraduate School because it felt selfish and uncomfortable. Well, And I just have to say, I'm just fanboying over, I know how hard all that is. So I just, I'm just going to fanboy just for a minute on those are some tremendous accomplishments, truly. And so to transition out of the operational environment into that, you said felt selfish and uncomfortable. Tell me about that. Well, I had been leading sailors and missions and operations for 14 years at that point. Like I hadn't been in school. In all of that time. And so I felt like that's what I was supposed to be doing. And in cryptology, we're always on. It's not, uh, we've got to repair the ship and we're sure not doing anything. We're on the mission is always on. So taking the time, initially I applied in the master's program and then the opportunity for the PhD came and I was in still in that, wow, I can't not throw my name in the hat, but I think what got me through that. Yeah. you know, is the idea that taking this time to invest in myself, which was like getting a PhD in my own warfare area. Not many people in the Navy can say that, right? This is communications engineering that I'm learning about and, and my warfare area is communications de engineering. So it was understanding that that investment in me ultimately would pay off to my community, to my Navy, to the national security apparatus. Looking at it with a long view is something that I had to do. Um, and recognize that my time away from being in operations would be justified if in the long run, which hopefully I think it did pay off. Although I did have, I did get warned when I went into the PhD program that I might not ever get promoted again. Oh yeah. And he ended up being a four star admiral like Rogers. He said, you just need to know. And I'm like, I understand it's the Navy doesn't value me getting a PhD in the warfare area. Then I will happily take my PhD and find someone who does so you can see my attitude adjusted between when I first started Going to class And when I applied for the phd, so what do your kids say? I mean mom studied russian bachelor's in math Masters in Applied, are they like, who the hell are you? Like, what did the kids say? Like I said, I think they were there for it. So they kind of just normalized it. It's just, it's just what happens. And they picked their own path. They didn't try to follow mine, which is perfectly fine. So it's not, I can't do the things they can do artistically. And so I'm in awe of them. I am curious. When I watched you get promoted to captain, we were in that room there at headquarters and your husband was there and your kids were there. They were small. They were young. Cause it was 2000 something, right? 2003 or four. So that sounds for, yeah, I went to Kenya in 2006. So as a captain for my captain tour, but I can't remember. It sounds about right. It was in there. Yeah. So there you were. And one thing that I was thinking about as I was sitting there and I've still had this thought is how did she manage being a mom? Because your husband was a stay at home dad, right? He was, he was. I remember that. And so how, how did you manage that? So many of, you know, people listening and clients I work with struggle with, I'm a working mom. How am I there for my kids? And you were all over the globe. Yeah, yeah, well, my husband became a stay at home dad, not part of the long term plan. It just was incremental steps where I was getting, I was getting sent to Japan and then deployed from Japan. And so over time it became obvious that's the way it was going to be. He could always have gotten a job. We could have brought a nanny in. But I think. the best advice I can give, which is ridiculous because you can't govern affairs of the heart like this, but if you can pick a partner who you know is going to be supportive of your career, no matter if you're a woman or a man, um, who's going to be supportive and at least share equally, I wouldn't say, We shared equally, I'd say he took, he took the brunt of raising our children, which made it so much easier for me, rather than having them at multiple other people's houses, as we moved, whatever, it made it so much easier for me, it was hard for him being in a male dominated environment, the United States Navy, and explaining, I stay home with the kids that it's, and I can't tell you how many men in the Navy were in awe, just like, That, I would love to do that. So it was helpful when he got those kind of responses, but it's still an uncomfortable place. But every situation is different. Everybody's situation is different. And so figuring out what's right for your career and your family, it's a personal decision that you just have to commit to. And maybe it changes over time. Maybe it changes. Just keep re evaluating, keep discussing with your partner. And this is what we did. We never looked back. We never really had a conversation about, was it time to get out? I thought I would get out after five years. And 34 years later, we were still going. And hopefully he, he enjoyed the journey. He's enjoying it now. I can tell you that for certain. I'm sure he is. Yeah. Now, have you gotten on his nerves since you stopped working and now you're home all the time? Well, not that he would admit, but I did during my retirement speech, I told him I was taking back the kitchen. Because I really do like to cook. You do. Okay. And he was happy to turn over the kitchen, but, but he, he, he did well, he did well in the kitchen and he made do with, he made it work for all of us. Yeah. So yeah, that made it easy. That's great. Yeah. I was so in awe of that when we were standing there and he was so proud, so proud of you. You could just see how proud he was of you and when the kids were like, here's Mom It was great to see. Oh, thanks. Really. Yeah, so for many civilians, the military is often seen through the lens of physical demands and discipline. And I think through this conversation, people can really start to understand it's intellectual as well. There's a challenge, intellectual challenge, especially in cryptology and cyber warfare. What do you think people might not realize about the intellectual rigor and opportunities that a military career presents? Yeah, I think clearly, unless you're a Navy SEAL, you're not doing hand to hand combat with the adversary, right? Most careers in the Navy are more cerebral, more analytic, more strategery, for lack of a better Sure, there's a resilience. You need the analytic abilities, you need the mental resilience, but there's a lot of careers in the Navy where you, where it's not really that physical. And I'm thankful of that, because I don't I think the intellectual challenges that came with the job solving puzzles that support national security. That was, I had to be, I didn't even know what Sudoku was back then, but I, I love games and I love puzzles. And you get to, you get to have a job where you, Protect the nation, um, while doing what you love with incredibly smart sailors and civilians. That it was just icing on the cake. Did you ever try to get a job in the civilian world after you retired? I know you're on lots of boards. No, I deliberately built, built my portfolio. To be able to go into areas that I had very little knowledge of, but I could bring Navy, I could bring sort of my Navy experiences to and learn more. I'm a constant student and some consulting, but really what I really wanted to spend most of my time was on portfolio that sort of expanded my horizons, learn about what Financial services and vehicles, the automotive industry and chemicals. And I picked those carefully so that I'm learning while I'm giving. And, and I do get to keep my fingers in the national security side, but I didn't want to fall into only the national security, I didn't want to just be a continuation of my military service. because I wanted to explore and grow and learn new things. And so I think when I come back to be served on the defense science board or as a board member of MITRE corporation, which is supporting the federal government, those additional experiences actually make me a better member of that board or, yeah. It's interesting. So you planned it out. I did, not super far in advance, but in that last year, I actually was asked by a retired four star that didn't know very well to go speak to a group of corporate directors about cyber. He said, cause nobody speaks as good as you do about that. And I'm like, really? And so I said, okay, I'll do that. What's a corporate director. And so I had to figure that out before I went up and spoke to these people. And I thought, Oh, this is super interesting. That's when I was still at the cyber command. So it gave me a couple of years of thought. Thinking about it, learning about it, preparing myself, taking classes after I retired and it happened pretty quick. Wow. What courses are you taking now for fun or what are you studying now for fun? I'm spending a lot of time, so I am the sustainability chair on the Huntsman Chemical Corporation's board. So that's an area that I've been Really sort of studying, learning about, it's super interesting to me, understanding the path that we're on to, to renewables, and how long it's going to take us to get there under the current trajectory. You can want to go all non carbon based energy, but getting there is a much harder thing. So there's a lot of that, but also for all my boards, it's just not, it's not just a matter of reading the book. That they give you every meeting, you have to be, I have to be interested in what are all the other automotive manufacturers doing? What is happening in the battery world? What is happening with lithium? So I, it takes me in a lot of directions that are different than before. And so that there's plenty to learn and to be up on just to keep myself current for the board work that I do. How exciting. That must be so interesting. More puzzles, right? It really, it kind of is more puzzles. It's just different puzzles. They're different. Um, talk to me about resilience. Resilience. You said when you entered the Naval Academy, you were just going to move forward. Your parents taught you what it means to be able to do anything. And resilience is a current theme in your leadership story. Can you share a personal or professional failure that taught you a significant lesson and how it ultimately helped shape your success? This goes way back. I'm sure there were a lot of failures that I could tell you about, but this one sticks out in my mind. In high school, I was a volleyball player. All four years, my high school volleyball team went to the state championship. I, I think it was, I'm not sure which year it was, but one of the years when I was I had significant playing time. I choked so badly, right? So this is a lot of pressure. Your team always goes to state. Occasionally you win. Occasionally you're the runner up, but I got so into my head about this. I think it might've actually been my senior year. And I was the captain. I was so in my head that I didn't. Rely on the training, the practice, the things I know, just be in the moment, play the game like you know how to play it, as opposed to running all of the theory in your head. And so, my lesson from that was, prepare. Believe in yourself. Stay out of your head, and particularly in high stress situations, you've got to depend on your training. You've got to depend on your instincts. You have to be able to rise to the occasion in the most stressful times. This came to light during the first Gulf War. Who knew that I was going to be flying combat missions in what were we, 1993? One, two, three, we were in Desert Storm and then flying combat missions. And at that point in my life, I was still a J. O. I still had sailors who were older than me working on the line. I was in the E. P. 3 at that point, and we were flying combat missions out of Bahrain. When the war started, I was actually in the air. And so as Saddam was lobbing scuds at us in Bahrain. The airfield would actually go on lockdown, and people would have to go into the bunkers and put on the gas mask and suck rubber hours. The air crew would always jump in the airplane and try to get off the ground instead of having to do that. So one night this is what's happening and I'm sitting in my seat waiting for takeoff, munching on my dinner. And one of the sailors who was older than me looks at me and goes, how can you possibly eat? We have missiles being shot at us. We're in war and we're about to go up and be the big, fat, slow target in the air for them to shoot at. Now we didn't know that Saddam wasn't gonna. It wasn't going to bring his fighters out because we thought we were going to lose a lot of aircraft in that war. But I was just like, we're about to get on mission. I'm going to have to work. I can't eat during that. I am just focused on the game, right? I'm focused on the mission and getting ready. And people just react differently to those kinds of stresses. And maybe it's some naivety on my part. I wasn't thinking about dying that night, you know, but, but you couldn't, you had a job to do. So I think some of that, yeah. Transcended. And in the most stressful times, I am the most relaxed because I know it's not going to do any good to get all frantic about things. So do you process it after, after it's over? Oh yeah. I do a lot of processing after the fact. It's what keeps me up at night, right? Could I have done it differently? Could I have gotten a better outcome if I had done it differently? What could I learn from this? I do a lot of that. You know, it's interesting to hear you say that, because I always experienced you as a very calm presence. Strong, of course, but calm. In the room, asking questions, I would often think, how the hell did she think of that question? Like, I should have had that question. You'd ask that question, or turn it around a different way. And so, It showed up externally just as an observer. Yeah. Well, it's interesting you say that because when I was at police fiber command, I took, I did all the three, I went to leadership at the peak in Colorado and there have all these three sixties and it was super interesting the way people responded. Like I've got a whole ton of captains that are working for me, either at commands or on my staff. And some of them were like, they felt insulted by the questions. The questions that you saw me ask, like, I'm naturally curious. I want to make sure our answer is best. I wasn't challenging them. It was just, I want to be part of the process. And so learning how to deal with that, talking to them, I actually briefed out. All of my results to all of my, to 71 people at my leadership conference, which is a very empowering thing. And I had some of those actual individuals come up to me and go, I get it. Now I get it. I understand, you know, how you're thinking about this. And it's just, it's, This is my, my journey to embracing vulnerability. I love Bernie and Brown is figuring out how important it is to build trust with your teams. And part of that is being vulnerable. And so I just gave them all of my results and talk them through it and charge them to help me. If you see this behavior and you don't understand it, call me on it. Like just I'm asking for your help and I'm wanting to be understood. And, but like you said, there were people who said, she just tell us what she wants us to do. We'll do it. We'll be happy to do it. No, I want to. I want to problem solve with you. Yeah. Yeah. That was never really your style. You know, it was questions, right? What do we see here? Yeah. Yeah. Because the team can come up with a better answer than me telling you what to do. That's not, I wouldn't want somebody to do that to me. So I never, I kind of never gave people the answer because I think. I always thought they could come up with a better, wholesome, holistic answer as a group. So many leaders out there think they have to hold on to what it is that makes their special sauce, right? They have to hold on to it. What I heard you just say is you displayed it and said, look, this is who I am. This is how I think. Help me be a better leader. Partner with me. Yeah, I also had to tell them that I thought I was funnier than they, than most of them did. But unfortunately, the only area that I scored myself higher in than they scored me in was humor. So I said, so you guys need to help me be funnier. You know, we were in, we were in a deadly serious business. You had, you have to bring, you have to bring some humor to it. Yeah, for sure. So you've broken barriers for women in the Navy. There's no doubt about it. What legacy do you hope you've left behind that will serve as a role model for future generations of women leaders? Yeah, I think I touched on it. I think, well, first of all, I was my dad's first born son. So being tough was something that I had to be, and I felt like I had to be, particularly growing up. I want people to believe that women leaders can be tough. Yeah. They can be resilient. They can be totally committed to the mission while also embracing the vulnerability, the vulnerable side of themselves so that they can build trust with their teams so that they can communicate effectively and they can affect people more profoundly. Because I think the more you can affect, if you can raise people up. To places where they don't even know they can go, you can only do that through a trust relationship and building trust comes with the vulnerability side of it. And so tough. Yes. Committed. Yes. Resilient. Yes. But also empathetic and willing to be vulnerable. And I think those early years in the Navy, I felt I can't show the vulnerable side. I'm a woman, I have to be tough. That won't work. But then I also found out pretty quick that if sailors don't trust you, that won't work. Right? If they don't trust, or if they think you're out for yourself, or if they think that it's not about the mission, whatever. So you have to find ways to, to be authentic with them. And I think vulnerability is a big piece of it. And so when you think about leaders showing up as vulnerable, what's one thing you would say that, you know, works worked for you? Well, I think I already told you. I mean, I brought my scores, my leadership, all of them, all of them. And the reason I did this is because one of the things they tell you to do at leadership of the peak is go back and share it with your boss. So I went back and shared with my boss, my results. He zoomed in on the Myers Briggs And I'm an ENTP, you probably already could have guessed that, and he goes, Oh, I know what that is, I'm the same thing. And I'm like, Oh, what a piece of information. If I had had that, I might actually have known how to better communicate with him because it's not a common, it's really not all that common in the Navy. And then I thought, well, if I knew that about him and I can communicate better, what if I shared all of this information? with all 70 of my directorial. It sounds ridiculous to say I have 70 direct reports, but it was a leadership conference. And so that's what we did. And we had fun with it. I think they laughed during that one, but yeah, I just talked them all through it and they really, really appreciated it. And I hope, I think that some of them have followed suit. Scoring results is definitely being vulnerable. Now, the other side of it is I can get choked up pretty quick when we're like, I went to Hawaii and we honored the Hawaii heroes who deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. And I don't think I got through one of those ceremonies. Like these are people who could be in Hawaii. They volunteer. To go in, into the fight to support the combat operations on the ground. And that's just who I am. I can get emotional and I don't want to, but I also, some people appreciate it. And I've seen plenty of men get emotional and I always appreciate it when they do. If it's an appropriate one. Absolutely. I just want to say, I always appreciated your humanity and your vulnerability really to show up and I do think you're hilarious. I never told you that in uniform, but you'd crack jokes and have fun and ask questions and so. Yeah, I always experienced you as very authentic. I do want to know every time I watch the news and see a leader pontificating on CNN, I always think, where is Admiral Tai? When is she going to get on CNN? Have you been asked? I don't think I've been asked, but I haven't pursued. The types of speaking engagement, it has, it isn't part of my portfolio. It's not something that I have sought out and I don't think I'm a good pontificator. You want to, if we want to talk specifically about risk from specific cyber and the technology and that kind of stuff, I get it. I don't know what Putin's going to do next. I, I, I, those kinds of things are so far afield from the areas that we worked in. My, like, I wanted to solve the puzzle. I wanted to get the information. I wanted to break the technology. I didn't want to have to predict what the adversary was going to do next. I wanted to find out, but I didn't want it. I didn't. And that's what they want from you, right? That's what. They want military leaders who are thinking about that all the time. What might be the next thing that happens? And there's people out there way better at that than I am. And Jim Stavridis is one of them. I think he does a great job. I think he does a great job. And our Navy is better off for having him out there explaining this stuff. And I'm glad it's him, and not me. Yeah, okay. I am, I am happy to share those kind of views in the boardroom with my, like, I, bringing a global perspective and a global military perspective, risk perspective, is what they expect me to do. So I do that, sort of, in the boardroom or in small groups or whatever, but I'm not, this isn't something that I'm studying on all the time and I feel like I should if I'm gonna go on broadcast news, and, it has to be something you're thinking about all the time. Yeah. And I need to think about sustainability and automotive and financial services and those kinds of things and fun So what didn't I ask you about women in leadership that you think is important to share? Well, I it might not be a specific women thing. I think that leading In today's super complex environment with the polarity that our nation is experiencing, it's got to be super difficult. And I think you have to go back to basics and make sure you understand what your touchstones are. Make sure you are able to communicate, over communicate with those that you lead frequently, clearly, be as transparent as possible, and listen. I think Um, it's not a women only thing here. It's just, I, I can't, I wasn't in the Pentagon during COVID. I can't imagine what it was like for those leaders, um, particularly in the national security side of the house where you're not going to work from home. Right. You're not going to work from home. So what. So what do you do? It's all right. I don't have that experience, but I know it's super challenging. And I think the world's gotten more polarized since I left uniform. And I think you have to stick to sort of those touchstones and make sure you have them and that, you know, they guide your actions and your communications. So you have to talk to people and listen, be willing to listen. So when you think back on all this, what are you most proud of? Just as a human being? That's hard, Paul. Like I'm proud to have served. I'm proud to have served and I'm proud to have been given the opportunity to be in the positions that, that I was in. And all of that has led to now my sort of new life. I'm proud to have been a mother and, and now I'm proud to be a grandmother. So it's, it's hard. I, we talk about, we talk about Lieutenant Meadors, who I was speaking of before Tyson Meadors. And when I think back about the Tyson Meadors. The Mike Hurlins, you might remember that all of those people that, particularly where there was a large gap between me and them, that I was able to learn from and mentor and help guide their careers in some way, that probably is, is the most rewarding piece is seeing them succeed while I have moved on. I have moved on and they are killing it. And, um, I don't take credit for it. I just was happy to have been a part of it. And I just love to see their successes. When you see the successes of those you have mentored or championed or, or led along the way, it's just, it's a wonderful feeling. And there's lots of those people out there. There's lots of them, but I signed a mentoring agreement with Lieutenant JG, Mike Hermans. You did? We were on the, we were on the headquarters staff. Oh, it might've been when I was at NIWA before I got to headquarters. But anyway, yeah, it was back when the Navy made you sign mentoring agreements. He was a lieutenant AG and I was a commander and he's held me to it for all of those 20 some years. It's still happening. But. Yeah. Now he's the commanding officer of what you would have known as NIWA, that is now the Navy Cyber Warfare Development Group. Okay. Which was his dream job and he's in it. That's great. I mean, that's phenomenal. I know. I know. You know, I, I have to say, again, I had a 22 year career. I always, held you in high esteem of one of the people I love to work for the most. Um, and I just want to thank you for that. You were an authentic, true leader. I could see it. I could feel it. Um, and I just always appreciate, even though you drilled the shit out of me with questions, I loved it. I mean, it is what it is, right? But you always made me think, and I really did appreciate your leadership style. Thanks, Paul. I just know you made a difference, really. Thank you. Yeah, you really did. So thank you. It is lovely to see you. Lovely to see you too. Really great to see you, really. Thanks for, thanks for everything in your leadership, really. Thank you. Well, it was my pleasure. It was my pleasure. I appreciate it. Okay. Working with people like you made it all worth it. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. All right. Okay. Enjoy your day. Thank you. You too. Okay. All right. Okay. Bye. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Courageous Conversations. You know, what I've always admired about Admiral Tai is her quiet but determined leadership style. It's clear she has been laser focused on achievement throughout her life, and I can tell you firsthand that she has led with humility and an unwavering standard of getting it right on behalf of our nation. So here's the question, what's possible in your life? What limits have you been holding on to that you're ready to shatter? Who do you want to be as a leader? Whether it's embracing a challenge, stepping into leadership, or building something entirely new? The path to greatness begins with one courageous step. If this episode lit a fire in you, don't keep it to yourself. Subscribe, leave a review, or share it with someone who needs a nudge towards their own breakthrough moment. And stay tuned. There are more fearless guests and bold stories coming your way. Until then, stay curious, stay courageous, and keep the conversations in your life flowing. Talk to you next time.