Episode 19: Jackie Culver — Dignity Over Charity

What does it actually take to feed 97,000 people a day, every single day? This week, we sit down with Jackie Culver, CFRE, Vice President of Philanthropy at Feeding Northeast Florida — the largest, fastest-growing food bank in the entire Feeding America network — to find out what's really happening behind the warehouse doors.

What You'll Discover:

• Why Feeding Northeast Florida isn't a place you'd ever go to get food — and what "food rescue" actually means when chicken, damaged packaging, and surplus zucchini are on the line
• The ALICE population: who's really walking through the doors of a food pantry, and why it's rarely who you'd expect
• How a single Dollar General shooting turned into a masterclass in advocacy, dignity, and listening to a grieving community
• Why being poor is expensive — and how a 24-hour rent grace period can cascade into a $500 problem
• The Blue Apron-style meal kits, community teaching garden, and disaster-relief kitchen already reshaping what "food bank" means in Northeast Florida

The Moment That Hits Different: Just one day before this recording, Feeding Northeast Florida's CEO Susan King announced her retirement after 12 years building the organization from the ground up — including a pandemic-era effort that turned cruise ship donations and a shuttered golf tournament's catering into 650,000 prepared meals for senior housing. Jackie's tribute to her in the Future segment is the kind of moment you don't plan for in a run sheet.

Global Perspective: Co-host Naila Mir brings her own fundraising experience across the UK and Pakistan into the conversation, comparing Feeding Northeast Florida's model to the UK's First Love Foundation and unpacking why solving hunger always seems to circle back to housing, healthcare, and the price of being poor.

Jackie also gets real about the philanthropy side of the work — how to keep donors engaged when their giving capacity changes year to year, and why "time, talent, and treasure" all carry equal weight when an entire family ends up volunteering for the cause.

Connect with Jackie Culver & Feeding Northeast Florida:

• Website: feedingnefl.org (donate, volunteer, or find food near you)
• LinkedIn: Jackie Culver
• Social: @feedingnortheastflorida

Find Now, Near, and the Future:

• Website: nownearfuture.com
• Instagram/LinkedIn: @nownearfuture
• Available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, and YouTube

Transcript

Quinn Harrington (00:03.082)
Reality television didn't just give us a new genre. It taught a whole culture how to perform identity for a camera. And our guest today is one of the people who built that machine.

Naila (00:20.952)
and then quietly walked out of the building and started telling a very different kind of story.

Quinn Harrington (00:26.602)
Welcome to Now Near in the Future. I'm Quent Harrington.

Naila (00:30.668)
And I'm Naila Mir here from Rainy London, and today's guest is Emmy winning executive producer and showrunner Tom Shelley. Welcome.

Tom Shelly (00:41.585)
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Quinn Harrington (00:43.648)
Yeah, welcome to Now Near the Future. We are so excited to have you. whereabout in California are you calling us from?

Tom Shelly (00:50.627)
I am calling from Encino, California, up in the valley. So just north of Los Angeles.

Quinn Harrington (00:54.645)
Okay.

Gotcha. Awesome. well before we get started into the the fun stuff, let's go around the room for a minute. starting with you, Nila. What's up with you in London this week?

Naila (01:10.604)
As I just said, it's raining. We had we had nice sun a week ago, two weeks, but we've now hit this patch of cold rain and we're back at fifteen degrees rather than twenty-eight degrees. so that's keeping me going. I came back from a holiday, which was a four day holiday. but that's just about it. I went Geneva.

Quinn Harrington (01:29.718)
Didn't you go to Portugal?

Geneva.

Naila (01:35.266)
Yeah, and then we stepped over to Annecy, which is a little town in France. It's supposed to be the Venice of France. And then we did one day in Rome. So it was hectic. without my kid. So I came back quickly.

Quinn Harrington (01:50.537)
Nice. That's one of the great things about living in Europe is you're only like two hours from, you know, anything. So two hours from Tom is like the desert, basically.

Naila (01:58.508)
Yeah, yeah.

Tom Shelly (02:03.662)
Or downtown, depending on traffic.

Quinn Harrington (02:05.052)
Yes. Yes. Two hours like I can get to LA and you know London's like I can get to, you know, Hamburg on a train. So I am what am I up to? it's Pride Month and so there's lots of activities. I'm on the LGBT spectrum. So just trying to get out there and take advantage of those things. And I'm also planning a

Naila (02:07.127)
my god.

Naila (02:15.361)
What about you?

Naila (02:28.237)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (02:33.706)
Fourth of July party to celebrate America's two hundred and fiftieth birthday.

Naila (02:38.972)
nice. You like parties, don't you?

Quinn Harrington (02:40.064)
What about you, Tom? What's what's on your desk?

Tom Shelly (02:42.832)
What's on my desk? A lot of a lot of development as we say. Just trying to get a lot of different things off the ground and get things sold. That's that's what everybody's doing out here in Hollywood now, is trying to sell stuff, which has gotten harder and harder. And other than that, just yeah, enjoying the it's the weather's been nice out here. Nice and seventies and sunny as it always is out here.

Quinn Harrington (02:57.566)
yeah.

Naila (03:07.093)
Lucky. Lucky, yeah.

Quinn Harrington (03:10.727)
Excellent. Excellent.

Tom Shelly (03:12.441)
It's a little boring.

Quinn Harrington (03:15.702)
well great. I'm gonna kick it off to you, Nila, because we're moving into the now segment and you're taking the lead. The brand the bio brand turn.

Naila (03:23.713)
Mm-hmm.

Naila (03:30.035)
I know i interesting stuff and I think I'm gonna learn a lot. So I'm not a producer, so they're gonna be terms that I may not understand, I may ask what they mean. But Tom, I heard you're in in this interesting moment and you spent two decades inside unscripted television, and now your current state is scripted features about women who became brands that that that outlived them, like Brownie Wise or Ronnie Spector.

I want to start there. First, unscripted versus scripted television. Maybe for viewers who don't know that, what that really means. And then why these two women, why now, and why are scripted features in why scripted features instead of unscripted? What's the shift?

Tom Shelly (04:23.94)
Yeah, well I y look I going back a little bit to what I was always interested in was movies. I was always a movie geek. That's that's I I loved going to the movies. I loved watching movies on T V and I I went to film school, came out here to California, got my masters at in the US C film school because I wanted to get into making movies. And my first job out of college just happened to be this new show that was

Naila (04:46.381)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (04:52.758)
an unscripted show. I guess we would call it unscripted back then. That term didn't really exist and reality TV didn't exist. But there was this show called America's Most Wanted that hired me. and so I started working in that that was it it was I guess you would call it a reality show. But like I said, that term didn't exist back then. And then through that I met different people and got hired for different things and more in the documentary world. And then

got hired to work on this show that I I heard about that was called Survivor and then Survivor when it it did well here in the United States and it went on, I just I I you kind of in this business you get pulled in that direction and you get that's now your career. And so I I I always wanted to get into to feature films, which are, you know, the movies that you go see in a movie theater. It's there there's there are scripts. You're not watching real people. What's that?

Quinn Harrington (05:46.868)
Yeah, that's my dream too. That's my dream too is feature length film one day.

Tom Shelly (05:52.697)
There you go. so getting in I I've always wanted to do that. And then I it's just af I've like you said, I've it's been twenty, twenty-five years working in reality and I just thought, you know, I I still want to try and make a go of the scripted films. And I thought, what's what's a g how can I segue into that? Because it's it's it's very compartmentalized out here. If you're not in scripted, it's tough to get into it. And so I I thought, well

Naila (05:54.421)
I could see that.

Naila (06:09.207)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (06:21.858)
I can pitch myself as the reality person. Why don't I find some real stories about real people? And that's where I came across the Brownie Weiss story. and then later the Ronnie Spector story and w w I was able through a partner to get the rights to those stories, to some books that were written, and use that to get into the business. So if if you have a property, as we call it, which is

a book or a script or something like that, that's that's a good way to get into the business. So I it's something I've always wanted to do and that's kinda why the shift happened and I just thought, okay, if if not now, when? So why not why not give it a try?

Quinn Harrington (07:06.709)
I think that's awesome. And if you see what's going on in with Nyla, she has a two year old and she just needs a little mommy time and doesn't care that there's a podcast going on right now. So she's adorable. there we go. Daddy took her, and she's probably yelling and wailing. So you can turn the mute off, Nyla. do. She is so mad.

Tom Shelly (07:11.747)
Uh-huh.

Tom Shelly (07:16.033)
Of course.

Tom Shelly (07:20.836)
No she

Naila (07:30.027)
Did you hear her? I thought it's like someone

Tom Shelly (07:34.244)
No but but those mo those are the moments we look for in reality T V. You look for those kind of great little moments. That's right. You want that stuff to happen.

Quinn Harrington (07:38.299)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, we're doing a we're we're casting right now for your next show, so

Naila (07:43.19)
my god. It's like you know there was a on BBC once this journalist or some MP, government guy was talking and his whole family was slipping in, crawling on the ground, live on television. Now I'm going red in my face. Reality TV. Yes.

Quinn Harrington (07:45.493)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (07:57.744)
I've seen that. I've seen that. Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (08:00.575)
Yeah, that's hilarious. tell us a little bit about still mill.

Tom Shelly (08:06.248)
Well, Steel Mill is l it's i it's just me. That's my company, but it's my loan out company. Here in the business when you when you get hired to do a a a job like me as a showrunner, th they're not hiring me, they're hiring me my business, which is just me. It's it's me and my wife. And it it's it's just my, you know, my independent contractor company. It's not like I have a big production company or anything. And

Quinn Harrington (08:10.485)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (08:21.201)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Quinn Harrington (08:30.986)
Right.

Tom Shelly (08:31.968)
Steel, it's spelled funny because there's an extra E at the end of steel, but that's my middle name. That was my mom's maiden name. Yeah. But I get lots of emails from literally from manufacturing companies from steel companies inquiring about my business. And I'm like, no.

Naila (08:38.112)
Quinn Harrington (08:38.112)
wow. Okay, that's cool.

Naila (08:44.043)
Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (08:47.955)
Right. Yes, I'd like to build a galvanized steel building. How much will that cost me?

Naila (08:50.367)
I was about to say.

Tom Shelly (08:53.548)
It seriously, I get those all the time. I guess they thought I just misspelled it. Yeah, a lot of people do.

Naila (08:54.605)
I got confused when I Yeah, that's the first one I thought. Yeah, exactly. we were like the scripted unscripted, and I don't know how much we can talk more about the work you're doing, but this thick the topic we just talked about, which was about with your you're focusing or working with women who've outlived their brand.

I wonder how do they how does a person become a brand that gets outlived after they go and what is your as a producer, what's your responsibility when that subject is no longer alive to push back on? How do you work with the content?

Tom Shelly (09:39.689)
well in terms of those two women specifically, Brownie Weiss and and Ronnie Specter, I mean really what what I think is interesting about their stories is that both of them have the same kind of theme of these were women who who really created something in conjunction with some male partners, business partners, and in one case in Ronnie Spector's case, she actually married the guy.

They their brands and their their talents took off and then the men who they were working with didn't like that they were doing so well and destroyed their careers. To me, that was a really i i an interesting story in in that it asked the question to me, like who really creates something that's successful? Is it is it one person? No, it's usually a collaboration with people and there's maybe some really Yeah. And so it it

Naila (10:21.837)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (10:35.253)
Right, it's a team.

Tom Shelly (10:39.12)
It it was interesting to me to to you know, to explore that. And and so those two ladies, I mean, look, I I d I don't know what their secrets were other than they were extremely talented. And I I I just to me, I feel like there's a timeless message there. or something to explore at least, that's still very relevant. And I mean that's all I can hope to do is

Naila (10:51.841)
Mm.

Tom Shelly (11:07.546)
tell those stories or at least one of those stories and and hopefully it it means something to people and that it does carry on their legacy and their brand.

Naila (11:16.673)
Yeah. I love such stories.

Quinn Harrington (11:18.239)
So for those those of us the Brownie that don't know who Brownie Wise is, give us I think most people know who Ronnie Spector is, but what what's what's Brownie Wise's story?

Tom Shelly (11:23.844)
Yes.

Yeah. Brownie Weiss was the I guess you would call her the co-creator of Tupperware. There was a guy, yeah, there was a guy named Earl Tupper, who was the person who was an inventor, and he's the one who actually created the physical product, the containers. And he couldn't sell them. He would put them in stores and they people just walk right by them. And

Quinn Harrington (11:36.074)
that's right, yeah.

Tom Shelly (11:53.241)
He he I think he invented it. He claims he invented it based on the paint can, the ceiling the way the the lids on paint can seal. and then but he couldn't sell And then off to the side, Brownie Weiss on her own was buying these things because she had a background in party sales. I think she sold I can't remember the company, whether it was the Fuller Brush Company or one of these companies that they would go door to door, but they would also hold parties and sell their products that way.

Quinn Harrington (11:57.631)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (12:19.54)
Mm-hmm.

Naila (12:20.189)
Okay.

Tom Shelly (12:21.242)
So she started selling these things on her own to make money at parties. And then she kept ordering more and more and more to the point where Earl Tupper noticed and said, Who are you? What are you how how how are you what you doing with these? And she showed him and explained the party system. And he partnered up with her basically. And that's when it all took off, when the po the whole party system of like inviting people over and having a Tupperware party, which was very big.

Quinn Harrington (12:36.187)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (12:51.304)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (12:51.386)
Back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. And then as she as the product grew and as she moved up the ranks, there became this sort of tug and war of over who was the face of Tupperware. And it was at that point that Earl felt you you know, that Brownie had flown a little too close to the sun. She felt that he wasn't giving her the rip proper recognition.

Quinn Harrington (13:08.595)
Right.

Tom Shelly (13:19.832)
And because she didn't have a contract at that time, he just terminated her. So she got nothing. She left at the end and Earl Tupper sold the company and bought an island somewhere and moved away. So it's it's it's a it's an inspirational but tragic story at the same time. One that I think there's definite messages in.

Naila (13:25.469)
Mm-hmm.

Naila (13:33.846)
Quinn Harrington (13:41.055)
Well, you've gotta have a story arc in in there and it sounds like that's pretty Sam one, not to mention that it also kind of launched like the whole Mary Kay phenomenon and you know, eventually all these Avon, you know, all these MLM companies, you know, selling everything from vitamins to you know, tchotchkis.

Naila (13:41.569)
That makes.

Tom Shelly (13:51.907)
Yeah.

Naila (13:54.739)
Avon.

Tom Shelly (14:08.004)
Yeah. Yeah, I remember my mom used to go to those Tupperware parties when I was a kid. They'd be around the neighborhood.

Naila (14:09.493)
Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (14:14.824)
Yeah, my my ex used to do pampered chef parties at the house and she bought most of it and I'm just like, are we really making any money or are we just breaking even here?

Naila (14:14.829)
I haven't been to one.

Naila (14:22.677)
Really?

Naila (14:27.358)
I at least now understand the story because Quinn I was telling you there was a a few years back, well ten years back, I went to a comedy show and it was about the Tupperware lady and now I know the story behind it. Yeah, it was hilarious. reminds me a bit of like Beverly Hills what's it called? The Real House Wives of Beverly Hills where they have their parties and they're selling the bags and the reality TV. I don't

Tom Shelly (14:43.95)
Yeah.

Naila (14:58.095)
watch reality TV as much as I watch autobiographies and real stories which you're talking about. but my friend is crazy about it and she brought subscribed. Really? You scru subscribe just for that?

Quinn Harrington (15:06.504)
Yeah, me on the other hand, I can't get enough of it.

Tom Shelly (15:09.68)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (15:10.76)
Yeah, s Discovery Channel? Yeah. I mean that's you know, I've watched Yes.

Tom Shelly (15:16.954)
Shark Week.

Naila (15:18.921)
I love documentaries as well, yeah. Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (15:22.224)
Absolutely. I'm not so much into the romance ones. I've watched a few of them, but I'm just like, I don't know. I've watched The Bachelor, The Bachelorette, and all this. So I was like, it's I don't know. It doesn't have that authentic auth authenticity that say like Deadliest Catch had back in when that came out in 2005. So I've watched all 21 seasons of that.

Tom Shelly (15:50.768)
Yeah, there there's with in there's different ways to produce reality TV and unscripted TV. And I am kind of of the school that you let the people they're they're gonna create the drama for you. Their their stories are gonna be far more interesting than anything you can come up with. And so there are some shows that are kind of designed and some producers that they try and make things happen. They, you know, they want they feel like they've got to have their thumbs on the scale to make

Naila (16:15.061)
Mm.

Quinn Harrington (16:15.496)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (16:21.153)
stories happen. the stories that I like to do are the ones where you don't do that. It's y you know, we in the documentary world of of it this all comes from cinema verite and direct cinema, which is basically fly on the wall, you know, you don't interfere, you just you just film things and and I I I bel I've done some relationship shows and I always I my goal with those is always can we really

Quinn Harrington (16:42.174)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (16:50.779)
Bring people together, can we find some relationships? and w I did a show, Love in the Wild, where we actually we we we got I think four marriages out of it with kids and the people are still together and have kids and everything. And so that's what I prefer. There there are I I feel like when the producers are too heavily involved, it doesn't it d like you said, that doesn't ring as true. And again, I I just think you're closing the door to some really interesting stuff 'cause

Naila (17:04.787)
Quinn Harrington (17:16.094)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (17:20.773)
th they'll always come up with better stories than you could as a producer.

Quinn Harrington (17:26.206)
Well, Pepper, you know, and you worked with her on America's Most Wanted, right? So, Pepper told me, because I have this like crazy fantasy about starting a graphic design reality show that's part competition, with college students. So yeah, there's a competition part of it, but evolving over their last semester at at college, I

Naila (17:26.378)
Yeah.

Tom Shelly (17:31.161)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Known Pepper for a long time.

Quinn Harrington (17:54.824)
wanna like document like the evolution of them like going from college students to becoming ready to enter the real world. And she told me, she's like, well the most important thing is casting. You know, you've got to really find interesting people. And I was like, well I can't think of a weirder group of a more eclectic group of people than graphic designers. I mean, we're just we're all kind of like a bit nerdy and eccentric and, you know

sometimes dramatic and sometimes shy, so

Tom Shelly (18:27.983)
Yeah. Yeah. Well what you're describing is what we call a follow doc, meaning a follow documentary where you're you're not you're not creating a competition for them to win or something. You're just, you know, shooting what you you're filming them in their everyday lives and kind of, you know, seeing seeing the stories that come out of that. And that yes, especially when you're creating a show like that, it all comes down to the cast. And you know, the the network, the streamers will they will demand to see.

Quinn Harrington (18:33.265)
Okay.

Quinn Harrington (18:51.484)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure.

Tom Shelly (18:58.181)
the cast that you have before they're they green light it. So yeah, especially with those kind of shows. Now if you have a competition show, it becomes more about the format. Like, okay, what how does it work? What are the rules? How does each episode, what's the big payoff at the end of each episode? Does somebody get voted out? All that kind of stuff. So that can be and then the casting can come later after the show has been picked up and greenlit. but yeah, what you're talking about, it definitely is no podcast.

Quinn Harrington (18:59.54)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (19:24.008)
Yeah, there's definitely a competition element to it. Cause you know, I've watched like a thousand Food Network competitions. And so one day I'm sitting on my garage porch and I'm just like, I was watching, I think, Gordon Ramsey's show. And I was just like, maybe it was Top Chef. I I ca I can't remember, but you and I'm just watching this dynamic, you know, personality and

Tom Shelly (19:40.089)
Mm-hmm. Which one? He has a lot.

Naila (19:42.965)
Yeah, that's it.

Quinn Harrington (19:54.066)
You know, him yelling at people and stuff like that. And I like, This reminds me of my early days in advertising when you would, you know, have created creative directors, you know, yell and scream at you 'cause you made a mistake or, you know, your designs or concepts weren't up to to snuff. And I was just like, if they can do it, we can do it too. I mean, 'cause that's that's the reality. Not it so much anymore, but it it was back in the day. So

Naila (20:22.743)
Yeah. We have Love Island over here and people are crazy. I I watched it one season and that was the season I think most people got really famous. But I talk hear people say, I I wanna go on Love Island and they're trying to fit the bill and their whole life revol I'm gonna get this surgery and that I'm like, my god, this is crazy for me.

Tom Shelly (20:23.153)
Yeah, yeah. yeah, huge success.

Tom Shelly (20:43.845)
Yeah. Yeah. That it's very big here too. It's it's y young yeah, like the American version. If they have an American version and it's it's huge. Yeah. My my both my daughters watch it.

Naila (20:48.602)
it is.

Quinn Harrington (20:53.053)
it's huge. Yeah, I was looking at the the the Nielsen ratings because we do a lot of work for Nielsen and so there the ratings on that are are are off the chart.

Tom Shelly (21:06.661)
Yeah. Yeah. It's I I I'm an adjunct professor at a at a a university where I teach a reality class and all the students talk about Love Island.

Naila (21:07.511)
Yeah, it's crazy.

Naila (21:19.393)
I have lots more to ask in that part. I think but we've got some segment after this where we're gonna go into a bit of the not you know, things that you have to worry about with lif you know, reality TV and what can go wrong. But I'll hold those questions for the later one.

Tom Shelly (21:22.075)
But

Quinn Harrington (21:35.262)
Sounds good. well, now's a great time to properly introduce our guest. Today's guest is Emmy winning executive producer and showrunner Tom Shelley. He started out directing for America's Most Wanted, co-directed the making of documentary for Mel Gibson's Braveheart, and was one of the original pioneering producers on Survivor, where he won a primetime Emmy, earned five more nominations, and ran the show as EP and showrunner for eight seasons.

Naila (21:39.755)
Yes.

Quinn Harrington (22:02.247)
He's since launched series for ABC, NBC, Fox, and Facebook Watch, including Dating in the Dark, Love in the Wild, and Coupled. Though through his company Steel Mill Productions, he's now developing a scripted feature features with CBS Studios and A24, including a Brownie Wise biopic starring Sandra Bullock and a Ronnie Spector biopic with Zendeya. Zindaya?

Tom Shelly (22:31.567)
Yep. Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (22:32.411)
Okay, great. so Tom, I want to back us up to the form itself. Survivor went on air in tw 2000, Deadliest Catch in 2005, the iPhone arrived in 2007. Between those two moments, something happened to how people present themselves, and you had a front row seat. so tell us a little bit about that.

Tom Shelly (22:58.085)
Yeah, well l y like you said, it this was before w Survivor when we first went on the air in two thousand, it was really before social media. And it was i like we obviously we didn't know it was gonna be the success that it was. And I was just a hired hand at the I just came on as a producer and all I wanted to do was tell interesting stories because I had gone to film school and I was interested in certain kinds of documentaries, the history of

fly on the wall documentaries and cinema verite and and that stuff then I just thought this is cool. This is a way for the the American public to see this kind of filmmaking or television. And when it took off, then the seasons after that for the casting, yes, there was a phenomenon of people thinking, I can become a star this way. I can go I can be an instant star if I go on this reality show.

Now, luckily, we got pretty good at weeding those people out because that's not what we wanted for the show. And and again, we didn't know anything about social media and you know what what was to come. We want but we wanted people who were really in it for the game. And because those are the people that were gonna give the best stories. The people who came on just to be become famous usually burned out and they didn't, you know, really get into playing the game. So we got pretty good at

Naila (24:12.396)
Mm.

Quinn Harrington (24:18.93)
Right.

Tom Shelly (24:27.885)
through the casting process of weeding those people out. But but I did notice at the time that you know the shows would air and then on there there were there were all kinds of sites that would comment about the show online. And the people could be so cruel to the cast. And I would get calls all the time from the cast just distressed that did you see what they wrote about me on this one obscure site. And was like don't look don't read that stuff.

But it was it it kind of it it definitely made me feel like there's something here that's not that that that can be a little touchy and a little dangerous with this totally unregulated people just commenting and going on and and saying what they want. And then, you know, as social media happened, then it sort of everything kinda that that idea of wanting to become famous on reality T V, which people still wanna do, but now it's all shifted to social media and

Naila (25:08.353)
Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (25:21.661)
Course.

Tom Shelly (25:25.581)
yeah, I we it's it's something that's very we're very aware of when we cast these shows that, you know, trying to find the people you trying to sort of weed out those people just on it to just get payments. Because the truth is they they don't necessarily it's there's very few cases of people who go on to have any kind of, you know, career and entertainment or anything after a reality.

Quinn Harrington (25:49.597)
Yeah, I mean short of like American Middle or s you know, something like that.

Tom Shelly (25:54.096)
Yeah, exactly. But the interesting thing is now peop there are people, not so much necessarily social media stars themselves, but creators. The people who are creating short form videos and that kind of thing. They are starting to, you know, break into the business in a very big way. there's a movie a couple of movies that came out here. One of recently, Back Rooms is is huge. It's the biggest movie that

Naila (25:54.327)
Yeah. Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (26:13.35)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (26:23.401)
the big the highest grossing movie that the studio A twenty four has ever made and it's based on a YouTube creator's his short films that he did on YouTube. So you're seeing now how reality T V kinda like weaved into this, but Yeah. But at the time we didn't know anything about social media when we started. Yep, yep. That's another one. Yeah.

Naila (26:34.615)
Yeah. I mean

Naila (26:39.917)
Weaving and Yeah. And some of them are getting more

Quinn Harrington (26:42.822)
I mean take a look at Mr I mean take a look at Mr. Beast.

Naila (26:46.625)
Yeah. I know. Yeah. We on Britain's Got Talent, I was watching it the finals yesterday, the one of the judges is a YouTuber and he is now one of the judges on Brit Britain's Got Talent and you've got all these influences and social media people who are coming in movies and they're ch it's just going famous for singing, so you're getting singers out of too. It's yeah.

Tom Shelly (27:14.223)
Yeah. Yeah, I think I have a feeling all that that, you know, hoping to become a star is now shifting away from reality T V into social media. I think many, many people are hoping, you know, to make it big in social media.

Naila (27:24.905)
It is.

Naila (27:29.055)
ev every eleven year old wants to be a social media influencer and star. And I'm like

Quinn Harrington (27:33.722)
I know my thirteen year old, she can't wait to get a YouTube account. And speaking of, we're gonna pause for a second because she's actually talking and I can hear her in my microphone. So hang

Naila (27:42.466)
Ha ha ha.

Tom Shelly (27:42.531)
Okay. Okay.

Naila (27:45.218)
We can go on about reality and I I think I'm just too old school. I haven't I haven't got there yet. I've talked like with my husband, the two year old. I'm like all these kids' shows like Natsia, she has like two hundred million subscribers. And she started when she was three years old. It's just crazy.

Tom Shelly (28:09.424)
Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (28:09.618)
All right, what'd I miss?

Naila (28:11.499)
I was talking about like Natsia, who is a fourteen year old girl. Her dad and mum started her mainly to record her journey 'cause she was su got she had some kind of issue, I don't know what it was. They were documented that but they just blew up and now she's got two hundred million subscribers and they I don't know, it's it's a whole business. They made a business.

Tom Shelly (28:33.506)
Yeah. Yeah. And and and the these people these young people they're very sophisticated at how they put these things together. Yeah. Yep.

Quinn Harrington (28:40.39)
Yeah, they are. I mean, they really understand the technology and the algorithms and what breaks through and all that. So it's it's

Tom Shelly (28:49.573)
It's a lot of work ac it's a lot to figure out those y how to to expose yourself and and get those following and everything. It's it's y you really gotta do the reason.

Naila (28:55.98)
Mm.

Quinn Harrington (28:59.334)
Yeah, we're still trying to figure that out, Tom. We launched this podcast about a year and a half ago. We're on like episode seventeen or eighteen. And when we ri initially started this, you know, because I've been producing videos for like twenty years. So I was like, How hard could it be? You know, and then I realized realized I was like, okay, you know, we've got we have to have new technology. We've got to get microphones and

Tom Shelly (29:13.179)
Mm.

Quinn Harrington (29:25.104)
you know, streamcasters and lights and backgrounds and that's just the producing part of it. And then it's like how do you get people to listen to it? You know, pushing it out on social and and doing our best and just waiting for our breakout moment. So maybe this will be it.

Tom Shelly (29:34.885)
Yeah.

Tom Shelly (29:41.285)
Yeah, it's yeah, the big the big struggle is how to get people to even know you exist and your your product exists out there. That's it's it's a whole it's it's

Naila (29:41.399)
Yes.

Quinn Harrington (29:46.445)
Mm-hmm.

Naila (29:46.721)
Yes.

Quinn Harrington (29:50.673)
Yeah, and it almost doesn't matter how good it is. It's it's like you gotta get people to Yes, absolutely. Well, when we figure it out, we'll let you know. Have you ever d have you ever done anything like a podcast or No? Right.

Tom Shelly (29:53.391)
No, yeah. You gotta drive people to it somehow.

Tom Shelly (30:00.038)
Good, thank you.

Naila (30:00.554)
Yeah.

Tom Shelly (30:07.825)
Of my no, I've never you mean like created one? No, I've I haven't done that. I I have some friends or or a friend who's an editor who created a YouTube channel for with some just funny little content. And he actually did a pretty good job at getting it going right away, but he has a full time job and I think he got kind of busy and just couldn't couldn't see it through. But no, I've never done I've the most I've done is I've created a website and

Quinn Harrington (30:18.022)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (30:32.742)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (30:33.817)
It I've and then I started looking into like hey, how do I get people to even know it exists and I I I I kinda gave up. I was like it's like this this is a full time job.

Quinn Harrington (30:41.766)
Well, I mean if you just do a Google just do a Google search search for Tom Shelley, the first person that comes up is a famous footballer. I don't know if you've ever Googled yourself before. So and then I was like Tom Shelley producer and then it's just like a hundred pages of content. So I think you're well known out there. I don't know, you don't even need a website. But are you on social? Do you do like Instagram and stuff?

Tom Shelly (30:50.201)
yeah.

Tom Shelly (30:56.229)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Naila (30:56.62)
All you

Naila (31:00.215)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (31:01.105)
Well, yeah.

Not as much as I should. Not as much as I should. I I you know, I do the I I I do I'm on Facebook or Meta or whatever, but I don't do I I occasionally I do Instagram and that, but not not like I should. I'm not I don't I don't work social media the way I probably should. Only because I feel like when these things happen, i i if if they have this big of an impact on our lives, y then okay, I I need to know about what this is. I need to understand you know what what's happening. And that's why I like

Quinn Harrington (31:08.081)
Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (31:14.161)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (31:22.31)
Well you

Quinn Harrington (31:31.484)
Mm-hmm.

Naila (31:31.605)
Mm.

Tom Shelly (31:35.057)
teaching the college class because I learned from my students a lot of things that I didn't know, you know, are going on in terms of social media or even film production and and how this business is kinda moving forward.

Quinn Harrington (31:48.294)
Yeah, don't even get me started on AI.

Tom Shelly (31:51.132)
yeah, well and then there's that. Yeah.

Naila (31:51.158)
my god.

Quinn Harrington (31:53.244)
Yeah. You know, it it's is there even gonna be, you know, a need for for us in five years. They're already producing feature length films with with AI. But I I have discovered that we've done a few corporate videos that are fully AI and it is not as easy as people make it seem, like continuity of character, continuity of scenes.

Tom Shelly (32:02.192)
Yeah.

Yeah. Well

Tom Shelly (32:10.949)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (32:22.758)
You know, it's AI r d detail. You know, when you start trying to look at things on on when you're looking on your phone, you know, it's barely noticeable. But when you're looking on a big screen or even on your, you know, sixty five inch TV, you know, you start seeing all this stuff that just takes you out of the moment and you know, it's like, what am I watching here?

Tom Shelly (32:23.152)
Yeah.

Tom Shelly (32:43.909)
Like the people have people have eleven fingers and stuff like that.

Naila (32:48.365)
Yes.

Quinn Harrington (32:48.446)
It's not not not quite as bad as it used to be. I mean, usually it's five fingers, five toes, but occasionally you'll get like, you know, weird arm movements and especially when you start getting like multiple people in a scene, then AI really starts to struggle with with all that. We were talking with our friend Britt McTamini, who is good f friends with Pepper and I. And, you know, he's dabbled into it a little bit and

You know, I I just don't think that he just really even wants to to go down that road. He's I mean, we still all wanna shoot like real life productions. You know, we don't want to use stock, we don't want to use AI, we wanna do real productions, but a lot of times our clients are just don't have the budget or the time for it. And so they're like, just go this way 'cause it's easier. And I'm like, is it really?

Tom Shelly (33:28.463)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Shelly (33:42.95)
Well I I think it's for me, I think AI is one of those thing it's like I said, when something becomes this big and and you know, it's part of our world now, y I I like I tell younger people, look, it it's here, it is happening. So what you need to do is learn how to harness it and and I know a a lot of people are saying that these days, but you really do. You need to understand this thing. And maybe there are I I my my hope is that the unions

The acting unions, the directing unions, the writing unions, all those people put in the protections for at least the big studio films and the the bigger streaming films and that kind thing that, you know, protect that that disallow, you know, AI in that very human creative process. There are elements of AI that can be very useful in production in terms of like on Survivor, you know, we used to shoot I can't remember what our

Quinn Harrington (34:18.384)
Right.

Naila (34:36.749)
Mm.

Tom Shelly (34:42.657)
shoot ratio was it was like 175 to one, which meant for every one hundred and seventy-five hours of footage we shot, we would edit that down into one hour. So that's an enormous amount of media and and footage to go through. Well, one I I I believe one of the biggest uses of AI is data search. So if you're looking for a shot, say when we're an editing a show together, if you you you

Quinn Harrington (34:55.429)
Holy crap.

Naila (34:59.189)
Mm.

Quinn Harrington (35:05.285)
Tom Shelly (35:10.479)
The editors would say, okay, I need a shot of the sun setting over the ocean with this one cast member looking out at the water. Well, you would have to go, an assistant editor has to go look through all the footage and try and find that. If you've got AI doing that search for you, that's instant. And you're still gonna need the assistant editor, because they have a lot of other jobs to do. so

Quinn Harrington (35:34.235)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (35:36.869)
That to me makes sense. It's like, okay, that just made this editor's life easier. It's not taking away anybody's job and he's the editor, still the one doing the creative putting it together.

Quinn Harrington (35:45.711)
Right. He can he or she can be more productive doing, you know, more

Tom Shelly (35:48.816)
Yeah, yeah. So I think there are ways to use this and yes, there just need to be the protections too of it's not gonna take away the creative human process. And everything I've seen with AI, it doesn't substitute that AI process lead at least not yet. It's you can just tell. It's like something's not quite right here.

Quinn Harrington (36:03.643)
Right.

Naila (36:04.193)
Yeah.

Naila (36:09.759)
Also, I mean, I don't want to watch anything that has AI and it's not human. And you know now you come across all the social media and they they're selling products and they're making these ads and they're you can tell it's AI. I it's actually having a negative impact on how I think and consumer. I don't want to buy a product that's an AI person talking about it. I need someone real. So I think people need to be a bit more careful of what the person is perceiving from

Tom Shelly (36:14.405)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (36:23.343)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Shelly (36:28.752)
Yeah.

Tom Shelly (36:39.077)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because you're right. I think audiences are very savvy. They can tell. I mean, I can certainly tell, like you said.

Naila (36:39.283)
what you're generating. Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (36:41.359)
Yeah, I would say that's true.

I I think that's true of our generation, but when you think about the digital generation, you know, like, you know, my thirteen year old and eventually your two year old, when they grow up and they live in a world of, you know, video games and, you know, Roblox and artificial worlds, I just begin to wonder, will they even care? We we had we had Elena Wis who is one of our fa famous

Naila (36:55.852)
Be normal.

Naila (37:07.223)
True. It'll be their new normal.

Quinn Harrington (37:16.055)
voice actress actresses was talking to us about what was going on with the SAGAFTRA negotiations and building in those those AI protections. She even made me sign a contract that said I wouldn't use her voice to, you know, model anything. And I was like, well, no, I advocate for hiring you. Why would I want to put you in a LLM and then start faking your voice? I mean, because you're really good, but

She was telling me that in in a lot of cases, especially in the corporate world, human created content, whether it be voice, film, whatever, is almost become like a luxury item.

Tom Shelly (38:03.609)
Yeah, I can see that to some extent. I mean, i y one of the ways that we try and in my business w we try and sell our shows to, you know, distributors and streamers and broadcasters is we create we have to create a pitch deck and we also have to create a a sizzle reel usually. Which means like it's a little like three or four minute i sort of showing it it's just a short film just kind of showing what this show could be. And

Quinn Harrington (38:23.664)
Right.

Tom Shelly (38:34.041)
In the past you would it a lot of these things are narrated. You have voiceover a lot of times. And in the past you would have to hire somebody to do the voiceover. And sometimes it meant you had to rent a a a recording booth. Now pretty much everybody has they can record from home. But it it was a lot of work and it was a lot of expense just to do something speculative that you're hoping will sell. And so I can see where okay.

Quinn Harrington (38:37.627)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (38:51.621)
Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (39:01.339)
Right.

Tom Shelly (39:03.353)
I can replace that large expense and inconvenience of having to hire somebody just to do the voiceover for my sizzle reel that I want to use to try and sell my chip. Now you can do that all on AI. You don't you don't need it for it.

Quinn Harrington (39:15.727)
Yeah, Eleven Labs has gotten really, really good at more general types of narration. You want a Morgan Fre Freeman sounding voice? They got it, you know. it's amazing.

Tom Shelly (39:26.415)
Yeah. Yeah.

Naila (39:28.085)
Yeah.

Tom Shelly (39:29.955)
And some actors are embracing that. Some actors are like, Okay, y and they're making deal they're cutting deals to like go ahead and use my voice, but just, you know, I get paid.

Naila (39:35.511)
Ready.

Quinn Harrington (39:36.869)
Mm-hmm.

Naila (39:40.865)
Royalty, yes. Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (39:41.061)
Yeah, make sure I get compensated, you know, even if it's less. It's sort of like you're make creating the stock stock photography version of your your voice, which is something I'd all right, we ran a little long on this segment, but I did want to ask you one more question about editing as the moment reality TV actually happens. What gets left on the floor that you still think about? Cause like you said, for every one hour of you know, it's like a hundred and seventy-five hours of

Tom Shelly (39:50.042)
Yeah, exactly.

Quinn Harrington (40:10.988)
of recorded footage. Like there are any moments that you wish could have made it into Survivor or any of these series. Like just kind of think at it a little bit about that that process. Like, you know, 'cause it's brutal. And, you know, I always tell my, you know, junior designers and editors, I was like, we may have spent, you know, twenty hours shooting this scene. And if it doesn't really fit the narrative in the end.

Tom Shelly (40:18.356)
y yeah.

Quinn Harrington (40:40.24)
It's gone and you just gotta let go of it.

Tom Shelly (40:45.007)
Yeah, it's I mean there's there's I'm sure thinking back there's I I don't remember all the answers, but th every episode is like that. You're you're always trying to what what we do is really it's not like you're creating stories. You're trying to tell the stories that actual happened, but there's all this other stuff that happened in there too that you gotta get rid of and bring it down to and if it's on broadcast television, like Survivor was, you had to hit a very specific time it'd be like you had to do

Quinn Harrington (41:00.688)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (41:14.779)
Forty five or forty two minutes and fifteen seconds to the frame. I mean to the frame. So you had you're like squish na now with streaming it's a little easier because you don't have the it's you have a little flexibility, but there was so much stuff. There were times when I didn't know how we were gonna deliver get everything down to that. So there was there are many, many things that you you kinda take out, but you just you you just have to do it because y it's gotta go on the air.

Quinn Harrington (41:19.186)
Exactly. Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (41:25.519)
Right.

Quinn Harrington (41:41.902)
And then also trying to hit commercial breaks and stuff.

Tom Shelly (41:44.991)
yeah, yep, yep. Yeah. Yeah, so there's you're yeah, there's lots of stuff that you cut out that y you know, you y you wish could have made it in, but you just kinda do it and move on.

Naila (41:48.117)
I wouldn't be able to.

Quinn Harrington (41:55.995)
Do you think broadcast will still be around? And well, we should move to the future segment before I ask about that. Let's go across the pond, Nila.

Naila (42:01.453)
Let's go across the pond. So Tom, the UK has its own kind of complicated relationship with the genre. like we've got Big Brother that started in the Netherlands, then it landed in Britain a few months before Survivor hit States. We we talked about Love Island, we've got The Apprentice UK. I do like that one. made in Chelsea. I do not watch that one. and a lot more

public conversation now happening as a result of these reality TV shows and you know the human cost to it, the ethics, a lot that's coming to the table. What kind of duty of care you know, do you have to think about when we're doing reality show? Is there a difference between UK and the US audiences and the casting and the duty of care?

Tom Shelly (42:59.395)
I i well, I I don't know it it's all comes down to the individual producers. And I'm assuming this probably it holds true for the UK as well. In fact, I've I've adapted some UK shows over here. and it it it I feel it's the responsibility, yes, of the producers. And there's like I said, there's different ways of producing things. I like to do things that you are taking these things into consideration. And

Naila (43:12.619)
Mm.

Tom Shelly (43:25.861)
There are other producers that don't care as much about it. It just depends on who's doing it and what the format is that they're doing. I mean, I I produce I adapted a UK show over here once. It was called The Baby Borrow. This is gonna, you're gonna be horrified when you hear this. It was called The Baby Borrowers. And the whole thing was about young teenage couples who felt they were ready to get married. And it's like, okay, well.

Are you ready for parenthood? Let's give you real babies to take care of and see what happens. And it sounds crazy, but the producer who had created it in in the UK was very meticulous about saying no, this is a very safe social experiment where we really want to ask this question. There were so many safety measures in that these kids were safer on this show than they were at home just because we had.

paramedics standing by, we had the parents watching everything. We had professional nannies following them around 24 or 7. We had, you know, they the kids, the the teenagers weren't even allowed to put the car seats in the garden. We had the fire department come and install the the chairs and they couldn't drive themselves. We had professional drivers drive them. So it's about how you produce these things. And I think, you know, that comes down to the producers and and the people, the the streamers or the broadcasters, what they're willing

to, you know, put on and how they're you know, what's what are they interested in or do they care about how, you know, these things are produced. It it's definitely the the responsibility of the individual producers. And like I said, I I like I lean towards the safer kind of thing, but there's many who don't. They they don't care.

Naila (45:06.827)
Yeah. I know that with love

Quinn Harrington (45:12.698)
So I know Nyla's right now thinking it about a show called The Toddler Borrowers because

Naila (45:17.087)
No, no. Hey, my show was about kids. My show was actually about kids with purpose. So all these YouTubers and influencers who are gaining millions on nothing. And I'm like, what are you learning? I'm more about what can you learn on reality? And also I'm very skeptical. I'm probably more in your your bucket, Tom, because I'm always skeptical. my god, the producer's probably telling them what to do. They've created this drama

Tom Shelly (45:17.774)
Quinn Harrington (45:20.048)
She's like, that sounds great.

Tom Shelly (45:22.373)
Ha ha.

Tom Shelly (45:44.827)
Mm-hmm.

Naila (45:46.296)
This is not real. I might as well watch a a movie than reality TV because it's just not real. Even like Apprentice UK, I laugh. I'm like and my husband's always saying, Listen, they're trying to make money. All right, because I laugh at the the people they've casted because you how they just don't know how to get along with each other and use their brains. but so that comes to like the same point. What is the responsibility of the

Tom Shelly (45:51.471)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Shelly (46:07.899)
Yeah. Yeah.

Naila (46:15.967)
entertainment industry w I talk a lot about sustainability, right? So the impact we have on the environment, the impact we have on society, how we are we can help improve things within the environment. What is the responsibility of the entertainment industry for for the world, the planet?

Tom Shelly (46:20.401)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (46:36.561)
specifically about r like in reality and unscripted. I mean, the responsibility I feel is still just like I said, just the same as producers. Now, yes, everybody's trying to make money, but I I feel that I I don't know where that's going to lead because I f th there seems to be at least over here, it there's there aren't a lot of new ideas coming out in unscripted and reality. It's a lot of th there are some shows that are being revived that were on

fifteen years ago or there are elements of shows. there's a lot yeah, yeah, and there's a lot of right now here a lot of adventure outdoor adventure shows as we call them that are being produced or putting people in the jungle and it's it's just the same kind of things over and over. So I don't know what it's gonna take some kind of a big breakout hit of a new type of reality show to sort of show I think where r reality shows go. And I I don't

Quinn Harrington (47:09.721)
Reboots.

Naila (47:19.405)
Mm.

Quinn Harrington (47:19.951)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (47:35.876)
i and and the networks and broadcasters and everybody are being conservative about producing or greenlighting new kinds of ideas. So I don't know where it's gonna go and what that means in terms of the responsibility that they're they're gonna take I I mean look it's it's Hollywood, yeah. Everybody's it's always gonna be about making money. So I I don't know. I I hope that peop that networks and streamers and and distributors realize that there can be some r some really

Quinn Harrington (47:44.59)
Mm-hmm.

Naila (47:52.247)
Money.

Quinn Harrington (47:54.425)
Right.

Tom Shelly (48:05.411)
some shows that make them a lot of money that are original and are responsible. It's d I I I don't know. I the whole business out here is wondering where is everything going right now. So it's it's an odd time.

Quinn Harrington (48:16.577)
Yeah, that's why Pepper was saying that, you know, the the whole reality format is you know, there's not as much of that as there used to be. And the ratings are reflecting that too. You know, you're you're seeing a lot more scripted series really dominating the the ratings, especially on the streaming networks.

Tom Shelly (48:26.031)
Yeah, there's not as much news though.

Tom Shelly (48:34.353)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (48:38.831)
Yeah. Yeah.

Naila (48:38.903)
Yeah. I I mean I think for the entertainment industry like you don't have to have that impact as such in terms of social but for me the biggest impact is the voices and you know, the issues that you amplify or the actors that amplify issues and really back it, that makes a lot of difference, you know, because as me, a normal person on the street, I don't have the power to do that. So I think that's a huge step that the entertainment industry is taking.

Tom Shelly (48:57.83)
Yeah.

Naila (49:07.125)
Or particular actors within it.

Tom Shelly (49:09.679)
Yeah. Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (49:10.329)
Two shows come to mind. one is Love on the Spectrum, which I presume is about people who are autistic. Is that correct?

Naila (49:14.957)
Mm.

Tom Shelly (49:21.123)
I but I honestly haven't seen it, but I believe you're correct. Yeah. I think that's right.

Quinn Harrington (49:24.545)
Okay. And then the other would be this one called Outlast, which is kind of like sort of a survivor knockoff, but or maybe a combination of survivor and naked and afraid. where they just dump in the middle of Alaska, you know, with no food, ba only like just the most basic of tools, and they gotta build shelters and then the only really rule is

Naila (49:25.005)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (49:37.945)
Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (49:53.28)
you have to be on a team. So you can't just like go it alone. If you don't have a team, you're off the show. And so this the the cutthroat nature of this, I'm just like, Ugh, I don't like this, you know, this is

Tom Shelly (50:07.397)
Yeah. Yeah, and that there's always kind of been that in those competition shows. I mean, look that Survivor was yes, it was a very cutthroat competition, but i i again, depending on how you want to produce these, I mean we always on Survivor loved the the the uplifting and aspirational stories too. We didn't want it to just all be we wanted it to be more like a a scripted drama or scripted film where you get all these highs and lows and you do have heroes and

Quinn Harrington (50:12.015)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (50:26.637)
Yes.

Naila (50:27.893)
Yes.

Tom Shelly (50:36.343)
Maybe there is a villain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. so i again it's just it it though those are those shows are making a decision, you know, that that that's all gonna be about the cutthroat nature. I haven't seen that show, so I I but I know it, but it it's again, it's just how you produce these things and how i you know i i the the industry gets very nervous about giving these people the power to tell stories because they're just

Quinn Harrington (50:36.373)
Mm-hmm. And villains. We have to have a villain.

Tom Shelly (51:05.787)
they're afraid that it's not gonna be interesting. But I think if you take that approach it can be and if you tell all the stories and you know, it's you just need the right situation that they're in to tell either positive or cutthroat stories.

Quinn Harrington (51:20.857)
Well, I mean, there has been a couple, especially in like the sort of faith based industry, thinking of was it Angel Studios and Sing House of David and the Jesus story that I watched some of it and I'm like, this this is good. It doesn't matter whether you're Christian or atheist or Muslim. I was like, this is just good quality.

Tom Shelly (51:30.735)
I'm not sure, huh?

Tom Shelly (51:47.601)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (51:50.905)
Good stories, good entertainment, so you know, positive messages. plenty of violence and gore and romance too, if you if you need a little bit of that too. But ultimate message is something that's affirming. did you have anything go ahead.

Tom Shelly (51:54.661)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Shelly (52:06.895)
Yeah. Yeah. No, I was just gonna say it's just it's it's you just need the people who are gonna distribute these shows and give you the money to do them, the streamers and the broadcasters to say, Okay, we'll we'll give you the money to do those kind of things. I'm those ideas are out there. It's just

Quinn Harrington (52:16.877)
Right.

Quinn Harrington (52:20.694)
Yeah. Yeah, they are, but you know, no one wants to spend, you know, ten, twenty, fifty million dollars on something that's gonna go on YouTube.

Tom Shelly (52:30.703)
Yeah, everybody's become very risk averse. They do not want to take risks now.

Naila (52:31.478)
Netflix.

Quinn Harrington (52:36.206)
That's right.

Naila (52:37.431)
But Netflix seems to be getting shows and all these like like Tinder swindler. It's r real stories that become the shows and I'm like, my god, these people have done wrong in society and they made shows on them and those shows are making money for them. So you you can be a bad person and still make money out of a show because it's been made on you. But Netflix seems to be investing a lot.

Tom Shelly (52:44.785)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (52:55.974)
Yeah.

Tom Shelly (53:02.647)
well Netflix, yeah, they're one of the biggest streamers. Yeah, yeah. They've it my my hope for a in A twenty four, the studio obviously they're not in th they do have a reality TV vision division, but you know, they're primarily feature films. My hope is for that kind of business model where a a a smaller studio, they're not that small anymore, but they come in and they're willing to take risks and they're willing to have these new voices with

Quinn Harrington (53:04.002)
Yeah, they're they're at the juggernaut now.

Naila (53:07.682)
Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (53:15.918)
Mm-hmm.

Naila (53:29.621)
sí.

Tom Shelly (53:31.946)
new ideas and young people and and they're really reviving this business. They're not they're their own studio. They're not owned by these giant, you know, conglomerates that are just about the bottom line. My hope for the business is that we see more of those A twenty fours that come along and and are willing to take these chances and and really be creative. I mean there's l there are creative things that are being done with the the big studios and big networks and streamers, but

Quinn Harrington (53:42.19)
Yeah, MGM or

Naila (53:56.853)
Mm.

Quinn Harrington (53:57.634)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (53:59.634)
they're it's it's harder to get those things sold to to get your ideas sold to them 'cause they just, you know, they don't wanna take those risks.

Naila (54:08.887)
Nice segue to the future. Yeah. I was gonna say that.

Quinn Harrington (54:09.198)
Shall we go to the future, Nayla? Okay. We went a little long in that segment. so I'll make this quick. So Tom, time to take out your crystal ball. And this is the part of the show we call the future. But for you, future is informed by 25 years of watching this thing evolve. So maybe we pull the camera a little bit back and then also start thinking about what the the future would look like. what

Real what do you think reality T V got right about human nature and what it got wrong?

Tom Shelly (54:44.297)
I think that it it did get right, at least hopefully on s the shows so at least some of the shows that I worked on, that there are aspirational stories out there. There are aspirational stories in i or individuals have aspirational stories in their real life. And you know, it it's we can put that on display. I think

What we got wrong, boy. I I mean, it it like I said, it's hard to the the business is so diverse in the way people produce these things. But I think early on especially that y you know, not having an eye on the care for some of these people who would go on these shows and not like really being prepared for what it could

mean to them emotionally and psychologically, depending on the show. I mean, I've always done shows where we really care about that and we do a lot of psychological testing and that kind of thing before we put people on the air. But I think, you know, creating this instant celebrity culture of people wanting instant celebrity was it's it's that can be, you know, a little tricky and and you've got to look at people and not everybody

does that in the business or at least didn't in the old days especially. So I think y there are, you know, great human stories to tell and I think that it's great that we got to do that. And I you know, but it didn't happen, you know, across the board and and you know, y you have to think about what happens to these people after they've been on the shows. So I think maybe that's still doesn't, you know, happen as it as often as it should.

Quinn Harrington (56:39.854)
So what do you think Survivor would look like ten, fifteen, twenty years down the road 'cause it's been on forever and don't see it being cancelled anytime soon? What do you what do you think how do you think the show will evolve? How do you how do you think this format will evolve?

Tom Shelly (56:55.441)
Boy, I don't know. That's a t I who knows. I mean, it's the thing about Survivor, which was originally by the way, created by a British producer in the UK named Charlie Parsons. it it it what it what works about that show is just this the format, this idea of, you know, these people play against each other and have to survive and vote each other out, but at the end those people that they voted out, they have to convince them to give them a million dollars. That

Quinn Harrington (57:05.153)
Mm-hmm.

Naila (57:06.753)
Yes.

Tom Shelly (57:25.679)
gameplay dynamic just works really well. So I think that will always be there. The gameplay. Now how the show evolves in terms of okay, do we try this in another setting? Does it go to maybe we don't do them on a deserted island anymore. Maybe we come up with some other set maybe it's in space. I don't know. Who knows where where that'll go. But I that that that that core element of the gameplay I think will always be there because that's what has made it work for twenty

Naila (57:45.623)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (57:55.697)
Six years.

Quinn Harrington (57:57.496)
Survivor on Mars.

Tom Shelly (57:59.082)
Yeah. There There there were shows in the early days of survivor there were people were pitching shows of of reality competition shows in outer space and it it actually happened.

Naila (58:00.342)
Okay. I don't know how many people want that.

Naila (58:11.189)
my god. One day we will be in the Star Trek kind of world at some point in the future, right? So it could be possible. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Quinn Harrington (58:12.769)
Wow. Well, well.

Quinn Harrington (58:19.508)
Indeed.

Tom Shelly (58:19.813)
Yeah, huh.

Quinn Harrington (58:22.885)
one more one last question. will there be do you think what do you think the evolution of broadcasting cable will be like in the next five to ten years? A lot of people have been talking about the you know, the the declining ratings, you know, on on cable, you know, people beyond cutting the cable. They're cutting like YouTube TV and

these other streaming providers that are essentially giving you network content or cable content and it's all moving to to streaming.

Tom Shelly (59:01.701)
Yeah, I look, I I wish I had the answer to that because I could probably make a whole lot of money. that's kind of everybody's trying to figure out what the future of this business is. I do think broadcasters have they're having they're gonna have a really tough time just because of their model of, you know, this advertised this b because it's you know, it's advertisement based and so y it ha there's d broadcasters are

don't want to take these risks with risky material. And you know, on when we do a show for broadcasts, there's standards and practices where you're, you know, you can't say certain things. It can't be too offensive. And that at least in streaming, you're free to kind of do whatever you want, which mean which can be good and bad. But the good part is that it allows for creativity, allows for there's not these barriers. So I think, you know, people drift towards that because they're just seeing more

Quinn Harrington (59:44.343)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (59:58.168)
stuff that's different than what they can it's not the same old thing, you know, that y you see on broadcast. And it and there are some creative things being done. So I think yeah, I think broadcast is it's gonna be tough for sure.

Quinn Harrington (01:00:02.751)
Right. And

Quinn Harrington (01:00:10.731)
Yeah, I mean because i if you if you look at the viewership with the with Nielsen ratings, it's like I mean, just take the the news for the for example. if you're trying to get capture that, you know, eighteen to you know fifty-four category, th they don't consume news that that way anymore. And literally the people that are watching

Tom Shelly (01:00:22.541)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tom Shelly (01:00:36.177)
Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (01:00:38.571)
You know, the evening news and and in that that format. I mean, they're literally just they're dying, you know.

Tom Shelly (01:00:47.259)
Well, when I was on Survivor, it you know, we of course you'd always the next day you went right to the Nielsen's to see what what did we do. We y and the the top rated shows then in terms of viewership compared to what the top rated shows now are like now if you get you know six million viewers, you're a hit. On Survivor, when I was there, we were at times we were getting thirty million people an episode.

Quinn Harrington (01:00:54.125)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (01:01:09.014)
Yeah.

Tom Shelly (01:01:16.451)
If we had gotten a if we'd gotten six million, you would have been off the air the next day. Yeah. I mean it the the viewership level now, you would have gotten canceled immediately back then. So yes, the the viewership is but it's also spread out now more because they you know it's people are recording it and watching it other days, but still, even with that taken into consideration, yes, it's definitely but but a lot of these shows also have moved over to

Quinn Harrington (01:01:16.589)
I mean that's like that is like Superbowl old Super Bowl level, you know, viewership.

Naila (01:01:22.081)
Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (01:01:27.468)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (01:01:35.892)
Mm-hmm.

Naila (01:01:44.301)
Two streams.

Tom Shelly (01:01:44.357)
the broadcaster's platforms, they're streaming platforms. So yeah. Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (01:01:45.665)
Yeah, Peacock, Paramount, you know, whatever.

Naila (01:01:47.584)
Exactly. I don't have Sky TV, so I don't get no broadcast, but I've got all I watch YouTube. Jimmy Kimmel I watch on YouTube. Britain's Got Talent. I waited and I watched it on YouTube. I don't have normal sky boxes anymore. I'm just on apps. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tom Shelly (01:01:55.409)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Shelly (01:02:01.456)
Yeah.

Tom Shelly (01:02:06.981)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's

Quinn Harrington (01:02:09.677)
All Nile, you wanna take us to the close?

Naila (01:02:13.037)
yes, we can close. And this has been great and I've learnt. I know, we could go on forever. I mean, we didn't even scratch it. Yes, I know. Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (01:02:15.777)
I mean, 'cause we're at like an hour and two minutes, so and you know, Tom's got things to do. I know, I know. It's we we always joke about having like the Joe Rogan format where we talk for three hours and you know, but we're not we're not that we're not interesting enough, so

Tom Shelly (01:02:29.409)
Yeah.

Naila (01:02:30.657)
My baby would not do that.

Tom Shelly (01:02:32.121)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your baby's banging on the door.

Naila (01:02:34.349)
Yeah, she's being she's been bribed with ice cream, so she's been quiet. But thank you. So yeah, I know, and then I have to go and take care of her. But this has been great conversation. I've learned a lot. we could talk a lot more. Thank you for your time and trusting us with this conversation. and we hope that we can continue having conversations beyond the podcast.

Quinn Harrington (01:02:36.118)
Yes.

Tom Shelly (01:02:38.783)
well that'll last for a while.

Tom Shelly (01:03:04.132)
Absolutely.

Naila (01:03:04.217)
so so where would I be skipping Quinn? So Tom, where would listeners find your work and what they should be looking out for from steel mills in the next year?

Tom Shelly (01:03:18.033)
boy, where would they find my work? All my past stuff is is some of it is on d different platforms. I think Netflix has one of my old shows, Love in the Wild. I you can see all the old episodes of of Survivor, I believe, on Paramount Plus and and then in the future, hopefully, you know, one of these movies we we actually get into production and

Naila (01:03:20.962)
Yes.

Tom Shelly (01:03:47.185)
Hopefully you'll be seeing those in the theaters. So everybody go to the theaters. Regard your theaters.

Quinn Harrington (01:03:49.623)
So you wanna you wanna do Yeah.

Naila (01:03:50.113)
Yes I love theatre Yes.

Tom Shelly (01:03:53.967)
Yes. Yes.

Quinn Harrington (01:03:55.617)
Definitely starting to to to make a comeback post COVID, so you know, and and and movies that are beyond the Marvel universe.

Tom Shelly (01:03:59.078)
They are, yeah. Yep.

Naila (01:04:00.002)
Yeah. Yeah. It's just a different experience. Yes.

Tom Shelly (01:04:04.409)
Yes. That I've noticed that the the theater down the street from us did a whole renovation with the really nice seats and and it seems to be working. That the people seem to be going back. I find myself going back much more. And that's what I always want. I love going to the theater. Yeah.

Naila (01:04:16.267)
Yeah. We won big screen. Same here. And the popcorn and the big screen. Now four D as well. Yes.

Tom Shelly (01:04:22.682)
Yep, yep.

Quinn Harrington (01:04:22.967)
Well, I do know Tom is on LinkedIn, but he has specifically said do not pitch him any story ideas, including you, Quinn. You I don't want to hear about your graphic design reality show on LinkedIn. So yeah, yeah. Okay. Well again, Tom, thank you for for joining us.

Tom Shelly (01:04:26.085)
Yes, yeah.

Yeah.

Naila (01:04:31.786)
No.

Tom Shelly (01:04:37.999)
Yeah, but now it's a you've put it out into the world. Now now somebody's gonna steal it.

Naila (01:04:40.503)
Ha ha

no. Copyright. Okay.

Quinn Harrington (01:04:50.955)
You've been listening to Now Near in the Future. You can find us at now near Future dot com on YouTube and Instagram at Now Near Future. And we were are on all the streaming platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, whatnot, and you can just search for Now Near Future.

Naila (01:05:09.869)
Lovely. And if today's conversation moved you, share it with someone who needs to hear it and leave us a rating because it does make a difference.

Quinn Harrington (01:05:18.953)
As always, stay curious.

Naila (01:05:22.215)
And see you in the future.

Quinn Harrington (01:05:25.461)
See you in the future.