Episode 47 - Richard Etienne

Join host Adrian Cropley in this insightful episode of A View From the Top as he chats with Richard Etienne, an award-winning personal brand and communication consultant. 

Richard shares his unique career journey, including his role as the official videographer for British Prime Minister, Theresa May, his stint as Director of Internal Communication at Elsevier, and his initiatives like The Introvert Space and Black Introvert Week UK. They discuss Richard's passion for championing introverts, his popular e-Book 'Self-Promotion for Introverts,' and his efforts to create inclusive workplaces. 

Tune in to hear valuable lessons on communication, leadership, and the power of authenticity.

Transcript

Adrian Cropley: 0:07

Hi everyone, and welcome back to A View From the Top. I'm your host, Adrian Corpley, and as always, it's great to have your company. This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Strategic Communication Excellence, where we sit down with some of the brightest minds in our profession to explore their journeys, lessons, and what shaped their approach to communication and leadership. Today, I'm really looking forward to this conversation because it's not every day you get to chat with someone who's been behind the camera at 10 Downing Street! I'm really gonna ask, ask a little bit around that one. Joining me is Richard Etienne, an award-winning personal brand and communication consultant, currently Director of Internal Communication at Elsevier, a global leader in medical data and technology. Richard's career spans over 18 years across academia, art, politics, and the corporate world including a stint as the official videographer for British Prime Minister Theresa May. Not your every day résumé! But Richard's work goes far beyond high level comms. He's also the founder of The Introvert Space and Black Introvert Week UK, championing the voices of introverts in the workplace and beyond. His popular eBook, Self-Promotion for Introverts, is a go-to resource for many, and he is a regular speaker and Guardian Masterclass Tutor, bringing powerful insights into leadership, communication, and self-awareness. Wow! And when he's not doing all that, he's learning to play the piano so he can keep up with his son's homework. How much respect do I show you now, Richard, that you're doing the piano? Welcome to A View from the Top.

Richard Etienne: 1:55

Thank you Adrian, that was a wonderful introduction. I really appreciate that. Thank you.

Adrian Cropley: 1:59

How are those piano skills going?

Richard Etienne: 2:01

Do you know what? It's not too bad. I can do two hands together and um, I'm not gonna tell you what a grade I'm up to, but my son is way ahead of me.

Adrian Cropley: 2:10

No, I trust me, I couldn't be anywhere near that. I really didn't have the talent of using both hands on keys at the same time, as well as those feet trying to go so I would be very uncoordinated. I can tell you. But it is funny what the kids can show us. But it's great to have you join me today and thank you for offering to have a chat. I've been really looking forward to talking with you and mainly because you're talking about The Introvert Space, and we will get to that a little bit later in our podcast. But, uh, for those people that know me, I try and be an introvert, but I don't quite achieve that one so I'm gonna try and get some lessons from you today, Richard. Um, but let's go back to the beginning of your career. Where did it all start for you? Is communication somewhere you wanted to work when you were growing up?

Richard Etienne: 2:57

I think it's quite interesting because my path to communication wasn't exactly traditional. I didn't start with any formal communication degree and if anything I wanted to be a filmmaker, and that came because my journey began with a real deep and personal interest in just understanding people and how they connect. I didn't know back then it was, that still relates to communication, but I always believed and still believed that everyone has a story to tell. As an introvert myself, as you've noted, I spent a lot of time just observing interactions and noticing the nuances of the way people would connect and just reflecting on different personalities because I was a very quiet child in a very loud and hustly bustly type of community and environment, you know, obviously school, but not just school. My, my family, both my parents are Dominican from the Caribbean

Adrian Cropley: 3:55

yes.

Richard Etienne: 3:55

and we just have a very large family. So lots of social gatherings and are lots of, are you okay Richard? Um,

Adrian Cropley: 4:04

Yeah, you're being quiet. Are you fine?

Richard Etienne: 4:06

Right so yeah. So I guess, um. If, if we're talking about communications, my training was definitely more self-led. I remember Anthony Hopkins used the word autodidactic and I was like, wow, I like that word. So, yeah, I looked that up and I said, exactly, I was like, yeah, that's what that means. So, you know, yeah. I just, yeah. Devoured books on things like psychology and people, and yeah, I, I loved it.

Adrian Cropley: 4:34

It is really funny as you spend that time observing people and you didn't quite make that connection then, but you kind of knew there's this fascination about people in the way that they interact and communicate. What is it you actually studied? I mean in terms of what was that academic bent to you? You weren't gonna be an accountant or something, were you?

Richard Etienne: 4:56

No, no. So it's interesting because within further education I went into IT, my father was very much focused on"Richard, Computer Science. That should be the thing for you" because if you think about it, that was around the year 2000. So, you know, the tech bubble and like there, let's go. However, my Dad actually fell quite ill and sadly passed away as I was about to enter into university. So, and didn't end up going because I was, you know, caring for him. And so after he passed, I had that type of, moment where I was like, what should I do? What, you know, what is left within me? And it was people, you know, did that. Again, going back to that fascination with people I remember picking up a camera and essentially helping local businesses to create promotional videos for their companies and, local shops and so forth. And that taught me a lot about connecting with audiences.

Adrian Cropley: 5:56

Yeah. And when you think about that context, I mean, you're a very important part of your life and then you're having to take that time to care for your dad and obviously losing him, which I'm really sorry to hear about that at that age. And if it's not too personal, how did that affect your thinking? I mean, obviously you took up the camera, and again, you are observing people, being able to do that, was that time where you reflected a lot on that relationship with your father and so on, that then kind of led into those next steps and what you would do. Is that where you started finding some passion behind the camera?

Richard Etienne: 6:35

Indeed, and I'll tell you why. A very brief story. So it all started when he was alive and I was a lot younger, early teens perhaps. And we were in the living room and I was watching television and my father was in the far corner at his bureau working with his back to me. So TV's on, and I'm flicking channels, and you know, this was an age where, you know, when you flick the channel, it would make a noise. I'm showing

Adrian Cropley: 6:58

Yes.

Richard Etienne: 6:59

and,

Adrian Cropley: 7:01

I don't feel quite as old now.

Richard Etienne: 7:05

and so my father, I can hear him in the distance saying,"Can you just pick a channel?" And I said to him,"but Dad, there's nothing on that I want to watch. I can't find anything." So he, you know, I hear the sound of the pen hit the desk quite loudly. He spins around and his swivel chair looks at me and just says,"well just make something you want to watch." And then swings back around and continues his work. And that stuck with me. And so, you know, after his passing and my, both my parents, but particularly my father, was very adamant that I should follow my heart and, and, you know, just, just work, whatever you do, work hard, do a job well, and, the benefits will come in that respect. So yeah, that's what in large part inspired me to pick up that camera. But as I said as well, just being able to connect with a very diverse community. I grew up in the northeast of London, or east of London, I should say. And you know, it was a very, very, like the kaleidoscope of culture there was immense, and it really taught me a lot about the global society and just how to connect, as I said earlier, with an audience and understand personality types.

Adrian Cropley: 8:24

I think that's really lovely that you found that so early. But then your career evolved, what were some of the earlier jobs that you did? Now you kind of found that I get the communication and the story and everybody has a story, and, you're finding that in the imagery, but you kind of went on and did quite a bit in videography, right?

Richard Etienne: 8:47

Yeah. So I, I remember, do you remember MySpace?

Adrian Cropley: 8:50

Oh,

Richard Etienne: 8:50

Again, I'm,

Adrian Cropley: 8:51

yes. Do I admit to that? Yes.

Richard Etienne: 8:56

oh God. Yeah. So I wasn't friends with Tom like everybody else was. Um, but. Um, I worked for the UK and Ireland, following musicians and doing lots of concert reviews and interviewing artists. And so that was a nice way for me to get used to being in front of high profile celebrities or just very well known people to calm my nerves, initially and then I accelerated with creating videos for local businesses. I did actually, I skipped a whole thing here. I did work in finance. I did listen to my dad for a little while. I worked for a TSB Bank and, um, oh gosh, listen, this, there was a really funny story Adrian where with that, there was, you know, all, most companies of that scale always have all staff events, right? And CEOs talking, and then we get to the Q&A part. I just boldly put my hand up in a very non-introverted way and asked the first question, and it was very comms like in terms of give before you take, right? So it was, you know, very hardworking man, it was, it was Eric Daniels was the CEO at the time. And, you know, it's, it's reflected in, in, in the, the results, you know. However, I, I really don't know what you do on a day-to-day basis, and it would be lovely to shadow you. So I asked him that and what could he do? It's like proposing to someone in front of a, a, you know, a record.

Adrian Cropley: 10:37

Open. Open up now.

Richard Etienne: 10:38

exactly. And, and so he said yes. He obviously wanted to take a bit of control back, so he said, but it's only gonna be for half a day if that's okay. I was like, yeah. But again, it was an opportunity to get behind the scenes, get insight into how senior individuals work, how they connect with their teams, and motivate them to do the great work that they do. And so this then inspired the applying to roles where I do that and I know we'll get to down the street shortly, but it definitely started with getting a job at the cabinet, the UK cabinet office, where I was the, Lead of Content Creator for the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting.

Adrian Cropley: 11:25

Yes. We know it very well here in Australia. We've often hosted them.

Richard Etienne: 11:31

Hmm.

Adrian Cropley: 11:32

But you did a stint as broadcast journalists, is that right? And Social Media Manager.

Richard Etienne: 11:38

Indeed. Yes. And so, I've done it for quite a few companies. I'm still actually for those who are in the UK or even London, will hear me on BBC Radio London with Eddie Nestor. We co-host a little segment called Trends at 12, where we discuss three trending elements in the city. But, yeah, I, I worked with a lot of media organizations, that's why you mentioned The Guardian earlier, I'm now with The Standard, which used to be The Evening Standard, this is a comms podcast. It's still about connecting with individuals, connecting with the community, and really trying to understand what motivates people so that we can be better educators, influencers, you know,

Adrian Cropley: 12:25

Yeah,

Richard Etienne: 12:26

you know people of inspiration to those who either need it, want it, require it, or question it.

Adrian Cropley: 12:34

It's, you know, some of those roles that you did within media, I mean, obviously there was, I mean, you were meeting some fascinating people by the looks of it, looking at your background and bio, and I'm dying to get into the Downing Street conversation, but what really attracted you into that space, right? So was it about hearing people's stories? Was it really about being able to get the story out to the public? What was the biggest driver for you?

Richard Etienne: 13:05

It's actually a bit of a sad note, Adrian. I'm sorry. But it's because I didn't think that my life was that interesting. I, yeah, I, I genuinely felt everyone else was just more fascinating. So I would take the time to get to know who they were and then tell their story to others and what that would do, and I didn't realize at the time was make them feel better about themselves, and then they would tell other people,"Hey, you should really talk to this Richard guy, he's really good at, you know, telling your story" and this is where understanding personal brand came in, because now I tell people a personal brand is what someone says about you when you're not in the room. And for me, I didn't know my personal brand for a very long time because I didn't really take the time or care to, acknowledge it or focus on it. So, yeah, it really came from. just not really feeling that my story was that interesting and really wanted to promote other people's.

Adrian Cropley: 14:08

It isn't that fascinating and, and it's, you know, I'm sitting here as the extroverted me, um, and, you look at it in a very different light, and it's not that you think your story is interesting, but it's like you want everybody to share your excitement and energy, and you really think about it in terms of who the person is and what story it is that you can share on them. They must really have appreciated working with you. I can see why you ended up in Downing Street.

Richard Etienne: 14:43

Do you know what that yeah, that's quite a compliment. I appreciate that. And I was so close to not going to Downing Street, I, had just finished. And I'm thinking, oh wow. What, what should I do next? So I applied for a role within the home office to be Sajid Javid's, who was the, Home Secretary yeah, his video person. And I got through the interview stage and offered me the role and I was about to say yes, and then my line manager at the time pulled me into a room and said, he said to me,"Hey, Rich, I just, um, I got a call from Downing Street", and I said,"Oh, wow. Congratulations!" that sounds,

Adrian Cropley: 15:30

wasn't about me. It's about you, right?

Richard Etienne: 15:34

but listen, Adrian, didn't I say I just never saw my I for a long time I just didn't see myself up there. And he said,"No, and it is not, it's not for me." But, um, in typical Richard Fashion, I, I was thinking, but I'd already said yes to someone else being really important and they're waiting for me or about to say yes at least.

Adrian Cropley: 15:56

Oh,

Richard Etienne: 15:56

Yeah,

Adrian Cropley: 15:57

and, but how did you feel getting that, that role? I mean, once, once you kind of realize it was about you having a role, not somebody else, how did you then embrace that? Because, I mean, I've gotta say for most people, I mean, I look at it, I think I'm confident as I get older, but I think I would be really intimidated if it was Prime Minister's called and, wants you to work on XYZ.

Richard Etienne: 16:21

True. It's very good point. And I think working at CHOGM helped a lot. And I'll tell you why, it's because I got to film a number of heads of state from across the Commonwealth. I got to speak to, you know, high commissioners on a very personal level, and the royal family, you know, I saw the late queen three times and got invited to a garden party and a lot of, yeah, the other members of the families. So yeah, I was there. Of all the nerves, the initial nerves I guess had fallen away somewhat because of those initial engagements for sure.

Adrian Cropley: 16:59

It is funny, I'm reflecting on the fact you got to meet the late Queen and I, um, you know, she was a person I always just adored from my entire life. Um, and I actually got to meet her when I was eight years old. I remember it was the, silver Jubilee at that stage. So yes, I am dating myself. Um, and I was eight and I was in Nottingham. Um,'cause I, I don't think I told you, I said I actually was born in England, raised in Nottingham till I was about 11 and then, you know, became a 10 pound pom and immigrated to Australia. Um, but I got to meet her then, and then I got to meet her again during one of the visits in Australia because I received my order of Australia, which is like the OBE in the UK. And so it's one of those things where I, I dunno about you, but I feel very giddy when I meet, uh, meet such important people that you really kind of look up to.

Richard Etienne: 17:54

Oh yeah, for sure.

Adrian Cropley: 17:55

But I would always wanted to go to a garden party, so I'm so jealous, by the way.

Richard Etienne: 18:00

Let me have a word I, I'm sure I can have a

Adrian Cropley: 18:01

Yeah, that's right. Just let the King know, you know, and say"Adrian wants to come over." But, you know, going on from that work in Downing Street, where did you go to from there? What were some of the next jobs you did? Because you ended, you ended up going into internal comms, right?

Richard Etienne: 18:16

Indeed. Yeah. So as Teresa May step down. I thought to myself, Hmm, yeah, Boris Johnson doesn't need me. He, he's okay. So though I thought,

Adrian Cropley: 18:31

a little bit, but.

Richard Etienne: 18:32

oh yeah, I just thought, what is left of communications that I've not explored? And it was, yes, internal communication. So I went to the then International Trade Department. I think it's now Department for Business and Trade and was the Deputy Head of Internal Comms, but also the Head of Leadership Communications because as you can imagine, quite a lot of Senior Leaders were like,"Wait, he came from Downing Street? I want him to help me", you know, looked good on camera and blah, blah, blah. So, there, there was an element of that. And then got to work with Liz Truss, who was the Secretary of State. Then as well so in some way I've worked with two former Prime Ministers without realizing. And so that was such an eye-opening experience in terms of the way communication is so different with internal communications because it felt as though I was speaking to a family, you know, the, because it is the same people, right? It's the same colleagues each time, and so it allows you more time to get to know different teams, different areas, obviously it's international trades, so we had international colleagues and that is just amazing because you get to understand what motivates people from different areas because it's so easy to think that the same thing that motivates me to do my work motivates others. And then, you know, you're able to do internal audits and understand, you know, surveys and so forth and it's, yeah, it was just remarkable. And I truly now understand why people choose internal comms and stay within internal comms.

Adrian Cropley: 20:22

It kind of is it, it is like being in a family, isn't it? I have to say, and, and you and I were talking before we started recording our podcast today. And I was saying, you know, when I started internal comms, it was like literally you're in this wilderness nobody else was doing internal comms, you know, might be the handful of people around the world. But I have to say, you know, internal comms now is very much, it's a family. Everybody kind of knows each other and is happy to share and help each other out and it's to me it's how Business and Government should actually work. Right? Um, uh, but you know, that's, you know, once you've found that and you're able to work with people, you kind of find your tribe in a way. But you've, you've then moved on to work in senior levels. I mean, you didn't do too bad going straight into a Deputy Head role. But you've done the Head of Internal Communications and you've also, been on some major projects like the Commonwealth Games and how, how did you end up working on that?

Richard Etienne: 21:24

Yeah, so with that one in Birmingham, that was because I think I got pushed back a year due to COVID. And so there was additional time to work on that. And their team needed someone who had further insight on global events, widespread events, and you know, CHOGM, obviously CHOGM was the largest event UK hosted since the Olympics. So it was a nice transition into that role and, you know, to support the MP at the time and all of the volunteers and colleagues. And it was, yeah, it was, it was such an uplifting and motivational event. And Birmingham, again, in terms of culture is so wide. It's, it was definitely the ideal place to host the Commonwealth Games that year. So, yeah, I really enjoyed that. And obviously moving from there to the director role at, Elsevier, you know, it was again a wonderful privilege and it got me to work, again, within an organization that had a very positive focus on the world, you know, it is about health, without having to focus too much on the money side of things, it's more about research and data and supporting, young medics and people, academics and those wanting to create vaccines and, support doctors doing, medical procedures, etcetera. It was, yeah, it, it was a wonderful, wonderful choice.

Adrian Cropley: 22:56

That would've been nice. I mean, really nice to be in something that's a bit more purpose-led and driven. I mean, particularly at that time when you look at the, when you were involved with that organization, no wonder it was a hybrid role.

Richard Etienne: 23:09

Mm-hmm.

Adrian Cropley: 23:09

COVID, was just after COVID. You went into that, or actually during COVID. But you, you've also done, and I did this in the introduction I talked about the fact that you did the Guardian News, the Masterclass Tutor role. Tell me a little bit about what that involved. Um,'cause I, I look at that and I go, oh, that sounded fascinating, but what was it that you did?

Richard Etienne: 23:32

So with the Guardian Masterclass Series, it's a bit. Like a short form, interactive learning kind of course. So I remember when, gosh, probably almost 10 years ago, I don't know that yeah, it was, it was quite some time back, you know, I, I did, I was doing some research into introversion and wanted to understand,"Okay, I'm an introvert, but how do I apply the skills in the workplace, how do I kind of work through or even circumnavigate this extrovert-favored environment?" And I had already, been a loyal customer of the Masterclasses by, you know, going to creative writing workshops, another type of workshops. And I remember asking the founder or the manager at least, you know, are there any Master classes or sessions on, you know, for, for, for introverts or anything to do with personality and, and they didn't have any. So yeah, I went away, did some research, further research, put together a nice mini course and they took it on board and, you know, as a trial and it sold out and, you know, couple of hours and then it just started to grow, and, you know, eight or so years later, know, it gets an average of like 200 people a session now, it's moved online. And yeah, now I'm, now I'm also with the, with the standard, doing something similar. It's, it's, it's just a wonderful interactive way for, people to come and learn something very specific about a particular topic. And there are downloadable resources that they can then use after the sessions to continue their learning and also help to, teach and inspire others as well.

Adrian Cropley: 25:25

Well, and I have to say as a Centre of Excellence, that, you know, and we, we obviously advocate for training and development, they sound like absolutely brilliant series. So, we'll we'll put some details to that as well'cause we'd love to see people that get the benefit of your, your wisdom and it it feels to me as you've navigated your career, you are always destined to do this'cause you are, you are such a giving person and wanting to give back and support others. It almost feels natural that you end up in this tutoring training environment. And of course, that's what you're doing now. And in, in the introduction I said that you were still working as Director of Internal Communications, but you're not, you've actually started your own business now.

Richard Etienne: 26:08

Indeed. Thank you. And I, I thank you for that compliment. I really appreciate it, Adrian. Um. So, yeah, I have the Introvert Space, which is there to essentially bridge the gap in understanding between introverted individuals and the more, as I said, extrovert kind of favored world, but particularly in the workplace because I am so passionate about empowering introverts to recognize and leverage their unique strengths. There is something so wonderful about being reintroduced to yourself, you know, and this is how I felt after reading Susan Kane's book,"Quiet", which I sometimes refer to as the'Bible for Introverts' and it's, it's, I want to be able to do that for others. And I, I love when I read the comments or feedback, mentions and DMs or whatever I may receive after each of my sessions from people who have attended and thanked me for that. You know, I didn't realize this, or, I can't wait to try that. And that's what I want. I really want that to be a reoccurring feature for introverts. And then on the other side of what I do is to help and inspire educational institutions, companies, organizations, to create a more personality inclusive place of work. So just for example. With HR professionals, for example, we have the, Toolkit for the Inclusive Management of Introverts or TIMI, because everyone loves an acronym and right, and then there are elements within that toolkit that help with things such as onboarding. You know, we have wonderful onboarding training that helps us, especially with, protective characteristics, all of them. But for some bizarre reason, personality isn't in that list. Even though we all have one, unless a scientist tells me otherwise. And then, you know, things like, job adverts, the wording that they use, some words may repel, you know, push away introverts, you know, words like dynamic and fast paced and, you know, it's like just have a

Adrian Cropley: 28:20

It's like Kryptonite, isn't it?

Richard Etienne: 28:22

Yeah, exactly. And, and you and business case, you know, of having introverts be able to fully express their quiet strengths, you know, the benefits to the bottom line, the benefits to your people, the benefits to themselves. It's so enriching and I cannot wait for this organization to grow and inspire others to want to make their places of work and education just more inclusive for introverts.

Adrian Cropley: 28:50

And I think you've carved out an absolutely beautiful space, to be perfectly honest, when you really specializing in an area that is it, it just wasn't there. I mean, I've never heard of it before and that's probably'cause I'm an extrovert and I'm always off doing something else, right. But the more you reflect on it, and you and I were talking before we, before we started recording today as well, is that it is about having the balance within the team, isn't it? And I think if I told my former self as an extrovert is shut up more and listen and wait for those wonderful ideas that often come from an introvert that has sat there and processed things, thought about it really well and then comes out with these beautiful gems of, of ideas. But we gear ourselves up and I've, I've, you know, when I was a hiring manager in an organization and I was very conscious who was coming in, but not to the degree where you were looking at what would attract the more introverted person,'cause you naturally think in communication it's all about talking and it's not, most of it is about listening.

Richard Etienne: 29:57

Exactly. Exactly, and we learn more when we listen. And it's not just that we learn more about others, we also learn more about ourselves. And as a people manager, I always used to have personality quizzes when a new person joined the team, because again, it, yes, I've learned more about them, but then it's interesting how our personality type does move and shift as we grow and develop, you know, because no, no one is a pure introvert or extrovert. We do slide up and down scale. So we, we have, you know, introverted preferences and so forth. So, you know. When one becomes a parent, they slide more into extroversion, you know, to do the parenting thing. And then, you know, the, you, you, you climb up the career ladder. You, you are now having to manage people, chair meetings, speaker conferences, network more. There will be moments where we do have to slide, a lot more into our extroversion, but all that means is that if you are someone who is more introverted or has, you know, preference for introversion, then you would just need to carve out time to recharge and be more dedicated with that so, for example, my lunch period is a meeting you, you, you do not interrupt my meeting.

Adrian Cropley: 31:18

Good on you.

Richard Etienne: 31:20

It is my time to, to recharge and be again, ready for you. Ready, ready to be the best version of myself um, that benefits everyone. So, yeah, listening is so key for not just them, but also for us.

Adrian Cropley: 31:34

Ab, absolutely. And I've, I've just visualized myself in the lunchroom looking for who I'm going to sit with to chat with. Um, and it's, but it's, it's so funny when we come from those, those perspectives and, and it's getting that greater appreciation of each other. And that's, that's why, what makes a great society. I love what it is that you're doing, Richard. And I love to hear things like Workplace Inclusion Advocate as part of your title as well because it, it's, we need to think about others so much more. Um. We are really up to running out a little out of time, and I could literally talk to you forever. But you probably need to recharge your batteries after spending time with me, but I just want to reflect on some of your lessons through your career. What were some of the things that you found basically helped your career? What, what were some of the tips you might share with others, about what helped you in your career get to where you are.

Richard Etienne: 32:34

I would definitely start with understanding your audience deeply, and that's whether you are crafting a message for internal audience, an external audience. It is just understanding their needs, understanding their perspectives, and their communication styles. I think that's important. But with that, that brings me to my next point, which is around authenticity. Because your audience will know, they will notice if you are not being genuine, if you're not being authentic. And I think with this world, this current world, you know, our, our audience is currently all of us, in fact, saturated with information in this distraction economy. And I think that authentic communication cuts through that noise so wonderfully and just, yeah, try to, try to be, you. Try not to be someone you are not, because people will, they'll work that out. And finally, I think focus on giving.

Adrian Cropley: 33:36

Mm-hmm.

Richard Etienne: 33:37

Before taking. I think it's important to do that in small ways. You know, in, in meetings if you want to, debate a particular point or someone else's made, thank them for that point. Acknowledge the points they were trying to raise and then lead with your input, but then also much larger if you want someone to buy into something, take time, whether that's their money or their time to invest in what you are trying to sell to them. Give first, in terms of information, in terms of your time, so that you can, again, get to understand what it is they need so that you can be the answer to them.

Adrian Cropley: 34:23

Well, I have to say, I think any workplace that you are working in, people would feel very honored, honored to be in. I have to have to say that. It, it is just been amazing talking to you, Richard, and thank you for sharing so much of yourself and certainly, certainly those, those tips. So thank you again Richard, for being part of this. I really appreciate your time.

Richard Etienne: 34:46

Thank you Adrian, and it's been wonderful speaking with you. And, and listen, I could, I could talk to you for ages as well. Thank you. And I guess our listeners probably would appreciate if we didn't talk forever.

Adrian Cropley: 34:59

It's like nice to have that balance in it. But, uh, thank you again Richard, and thanks to everybody for joining us on this episode of A View From the Top. Some exciting news if you want to listen to Richard, which I could do for hours. Um, he's catching up with, Sia Papageorgiou, um, my, my partner in crime in the Centre for Strategic Communication Excellence on Wednesday, the 14th of May. It is a free session and it's called"Quiet Voices, Loud Impact", which I love the title of that, and it's about rethinking Internal Communication for an introverted workforce. I am going to join it because I need to learn more about this topic for sure. So please join us for that one, and look forward to catching up with you all next time on A View From the Top.