Courage, Belonging, & Longing - with Katherine Leviste

Your life can look successful on paper and still feel like you’re running at full speed with no sense of wholeness. We talk with Katherine Leviste, a California-born creative powerhouse with roots in ophthalmology research and a mind tuned to creativity, community, and human systems. She shares how she learned to separate herself into neat boxes- the “professional” version, the caretaker, the creative- and how that fragmentation eventually started to hurt more than it helped.

We use one unforgettable thread to make it real: hamster wheels. Katherine asks whether we truly choose our wheels or inherit them from family expectations, culture, and career pipelines. Then she tells the wild and oddly profound story of building a hamster rescue as a kid, complete with a business model, rehab plan, and a wall of cages. It becomes a lens on leadership, agency, and the kind of courage that starts long before you have credentials or certainty.

From there, we go into the hard stuff: identity collapse, burnout, and the moment you realize the healthcare system can break the people trying to heal others. Katherine unpacks why medical education still feels dogmatic in an era of exploding information, and why she’s choosing to step outside the sandbox to build tools that can plug back in. We also talk nervous system regulation, music as therapy, “The Body Keeps the Score,” dopamine audits, social media detox, and how to turn down outside noise so you can finally hear yourself.

If you’re rethinking success, rebuilding after a tough season, or trying to integrate your ambition with your humanity, this conversation will stay with you. Subscribe, share this with a friend on a hamster wheel, and leave a review with the part that hit you hardest.

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Transcript

Welcome And CatRx Vision

Taran Singh 0:03

Hey everybody. Today our guest katherine Leviste a California-born credit powerhouse whose journey spans research, music, and human expression. Welcome Katherine.

Katherine Leviste 0:19

Thanks for having me, Taran. I'm happy to share my stories about courage, belonging, and longing.

Taran Singh 0:25

Awesome. Let's let's begin with a loaded question with the present, where you are now, and what led you here.

Katherine Leviste 0:36

Yeah, so I started in healthcare and vision science, but I've become increasingly invested in how people, information, and systems interact. Um, the new version of me will be channeled through CatRx, which is my way of exploring health, human systems, and the conditions that help humans flourish.

Taran Singh 1:01

And and if you double down on that, the new version of you, uh what what got you here? Uh, can you talk about some of the deliberate or the unexpected unexpected pivots you have made to come to this uh new new beginning?

Katherine Leviste 1:30

Yeah. Um there was a little bit of a lag there. Um yeah, so I would say that I've spent a decent amount of time in ophthalmology and research in that field. Um, but during my time in academia, I convinced myself that creativity was going to become a hindrance to my work. So when I moved from California to Miami, I told myself, okay, we're going to put the photography aside, um, the drawing, the writing uh of poetry and other things. Um, because these are whimsical things that don't really play a role in our lives, at least that version that I was entering into. But what ended up happening was um I allowed this sort of fragmentation of self and I separated pieces of myself. There was Catherine the researcher, Catherine the academic, the mentor, the mentee, and then the creative Catherine was kind of tucked away in the background. I had other outlets um and found ways to build that creative engine into community-driven projects like IT, um and ophthalmology community and podcasts. So um now that I'm in this phase of the case.

Taran Singh 3:07

I'm going to cut you here for one second. I know

Creativity Put In A Box

Taran Singh 3:10

you talked about that defragmentation, uh, and you gave us a hint about it in your head, right? Isn't the defragmentation generate that optimality or the optimization in the modern society? We need, hey, I can do research, I can part of me are doing things that are good for me, but I'm never whole. And and you shared that in our initial conversation. Uh, can you talk about when you realized that defragmentation was was good, but was hurting the expressions of yourself in ways uh that was not making you whole.

Katherine Leviste 3:48

Right. Um you know it's a question that I didn't start asking myself until maybe last year or even the last six months. But it's something that I think a lot of immigrant kids grow up with. It's something that um anyone who's faced any type of adversity where you've had to put yourself in a box and try to fit in, I think has had to compartmentalize themselves. Um and there's a version of me that was the caretaker of the family, the oldest sibling, the youngest sibling. Um, you know, and there's the professional version of me and the creative version of me. And at times all these versions were at odds with each other. So I'm really starting to realize the importance of moving towards an integrated self, um, which includes an integrated village, which includes not minimizing yourself and forcing yourself into spaces that no longer feel right. Um and I think you know, we've kind of touched on of the topic of hamsters, which I'll I'm sure will come up. But um there's the concept of the hamster wheel, and something I've wondered about in the past months, whether we actually have agency in choosing which hamster wheel we hop onto,

Hamster Wheel And Success Definitions

Katherine Leviste 5:40

or if the hamster wheel is assigned to us. And I think we choose certain hamster wheels because they have guaranteed outcomes of success. But when you peel that back and ask, what is the true meaning of success? Am I defining success as my parents have projected on me? Am I defining success by how society defines success? And does success actually calculate, like include happiness and joy in the equation?

Taran Singh 6:18

Yeah, you you touched on so many things there, but uh the one that that we've talked about, and and the courage, right? The the the courage and the velocity of which hamster wheel we are stuck on and which hamster we feel we can get out of, is is something that I find you know laden in your stories and and the courage you took when you when you were in high school and created a hamster

Building A Hamster Rescue Business

Taran Singh 6:45

shelter, right? As a kid, uh can you walk us through what you know what was in your head and was it just the cute cuteness of hamster that got you? Uh or how did you come up with the courage, especially as an immigrant family, that I assume there would have been pushbacks uh when you bring in something that doesn't belong to you and you have to take care of it? And and you didn't just have one, you had like a whole rack full of hamsters to deal with.

Katherine Leviste 7:10

I had a whole operation, yeah. Um much to my mom's chagrin. Um yeah, so growing up in the Philippines, we always had animals, we had, you know, lots of dogs, goats, um, things like that. There were always animals in the house. My dad had like a very cool salt water tank. Um, and my parents were biologists by training, so there was a lot of you know talking about nature and biology growing up, and I think they were very encouraging of me learning how nature works. Um, so in fifth grade, I wrote a book on hamster keeping. I had my first hamster then. Um, and I think a common thread for myself is I would have planted seeds years ago, and it's not until I revisit that seed, you know, in some future date, that I realize, oh, this has started blooming on its own. So it was time for the hamster seed to grow, I think, post-middle school, um, the time between middle school and high school, it was that summer, and I realized, being an animal lover, that some of the local shelters here did take in um hamsters and small animals, but they had to put them down if they had you know didn't have enough capacity. So um I asked my mom, hey, can I start like a hamster rescue? And she goes, How are you going to start this hamster rescue? And I gave her my bulk my whole business model. I was like, Well, you know, people are going to are trying to get rid of their hamsters because they're not well equipped to take care of them or they don't have the bandwidth to take care of them. And instead of them ending up in the shelter where there's a chance of them getting put down, they could come to me. I know how to take care of them, and I can create the sort of uh like a system or network for the hamsters to then find new homes. I can rehab them, I can see which ones can be hand-tamed or not. I mean, I'm I'm a hamster whisperer now, right?

Taran Singh 9:32

So did you have a one 800 hamster number so people could reach out to you?

Katherine Leviste 9:37

I think I tried to. I don't know that Google Voice was around then, but I think I might have tried. Um I think they I might have given them the landline. I don't remember.

Taran Singh 9:48

It was it's a quite a feat considering you know, fifth grader coming up with a business plan and everything else when there is no AI to help you. You must have gone through a lot of library trips uh to be able to come up with with that with that idea. But man, what a courage.

Katherine Leviste 10:05

Yeah, it was it was actually much easier than that. It was Craigslist. It had like an animal section on Craigslist. But if I could paint a visual, imagine like an entire wall of the house being staffed in hamster cages. So at the peak, I don't I think my mom enabled me to do this because you know she thought she's crazy. There's no way like this would actually happen. But I had people as far as Berkeley and Oakland, and at the time we were living in Mountain View, I had folks, you know, from the East Bay going, I have a cage of 11 hamsters. We started out with two, and now I don't know what to do with all of them. And there's a teenage brother in there somewhere too. So I'm like, okay, don't worry, I'll I'll solve it. So yeah, we had a wall of cages, and I think at peak I had about 30 hamsters that summer, and my mom goes, That's it, you have to shut this operation down. This is way out of control. Um, I even purchased one of the hamsters intentionally. Um he was his name was Goliath. He was a giant European black bear hamsters. There's different breeds of them, right? They say that the smallest ones are the most uh neurotic, the Siberian hamsters. And I had one, the teenage brother was albino. He looked like he had walked through like an electric current because his hair was like spiky and he had you know no melanin in his eyes, and he just seemed neurotic. And he was always running on his wheel, he would run so fast that he would catapult himself outside of the wheel, yeah. And then this European black bear hamster, they're considered more exotic because they're harder to find, they're almost the size of a guinea pig. I my mom drove me, I wasn't driving at this time, and uh she was like, What are we doing? And I was like, I have to rescue this hamster from this person. And what I didn't tell her was I had to pay for him, but he was in like emaciated condition, very like lethargic, and you know, the guy had him in the back of his car, and it was super hot in the summer. I was like, I I can't I can't leave knowing that he's like this. So I take him to my hamster rehab. I'm out of cages, everything is so full already. And one rule of hamster keeping is you never pair two adult hamsters together, especially not of the same gender, especially um, yeah, like and completely different breeds too.

Taran Singh 12:47

So that sounds like modern world.

Katherine Leviste 12:52

Yeah, I did an experiment, and I I had uh Avalanche, the neurotic one, and Goliath meet in a neutral space, so it's not territorial, they can't kill each other. And if they do, I can separate them quickly. But nope, they sniffed each other and then they went on about their business. I was like, okay, maybe I'll try putting them in a neutral cage. As long as I had two wheels, I had a giant wheel for Goliath and a smaller wheel for Avalanche. They were fine, surprisingly. So I was like, ha, all those hamster books that I read, they were wrong. It's possible. Or that there are exceptions. Maybe this isn't the rule, but there are exceptions. So, I mean, Avalanche still launched himself. He changed into a bigger hamster wheel, and he still would run so fast, he would still launch himself off of that. So um, yeah.

Taran Singh 13:44

And I do not know the region of hamster wheel, but you probably can can give us more insights into it. Like, if they don't have like what do they do with the wheel? Are they just playing? Is it is an entertainment, like like how humans get Netflix 24-7. That's what hamster wheel is for hamsters.

Katherine Leviste 14:01

I imagine it gives them some sort of like dopamine too. But yeah, um, they're supposed to have a certain amount of space uh based on their size. And some hamsters are diggers, some are not, but typically it's good to give them a wheel to uh just exercise and get their energy out, and they're nocturnal animals, so I I kind of have a hamster right now, too. Actually, um, I had to move her downstairs a week ago because I think she's been driving me mad for the last months, because she'll wake up in the middle of the night and make the most amount of noise possible. Um and now my sleep is so much better that she's in a different room.

Taran Singh 14:48

Yeah, I actually didn't know that. I they look, you know, they look similar to raccoons a little bit, especially with their spiky hairs, but I could be wrong. I don't have uh, I mean, I've seen, you know, I've seen I've not seen them outside the four walls of either zoos or outside in the nature, so don't know much

Leaving The Safe Career Identity

Taran Singh 15:06

about it. But I want to swivel back to your life a little bit and understand, you know, when when you had to quit the hamster wheel of research and give your spirits expression, um, and and that, you know, have you, you know, when you look at and you talked about it, like how do you find the velocity within yourself to get out of that grind, especially, you know, comfortable. You're getting a comfortable future in research for the resources you want to live, but you you give up everything. Uh how do you go find the courage? Because it's very hard as as humans to give up something for something that might not even exist, or it might be whimsical, as you said in the beginning.

Katherine Leviste 15:49

Yeah, um, I would say that it was a massive identity shift, um, something that took over a year to rediscover. Um, because when you tie your identity to your career and that alone, um, it actually becomes a very dangerous game in that you can lose yourself in the process. Um, whenever you abandon other parts that were also important to you. So I think this whole phase has been uh a rediscovery of that. That maybe I want to build the next wheel. Maybe it's not even going to look like a wheel, maybe it's gonna become more like a plane. I don't know. Um, but it's really important to realize the type of vehicle that you're in and what you're pouring into. Um, my passion for ophthalmology and research hasn't gone away. Um, but increasingly there I've experienced the shift of wanting to solve problems in healthcare. But for the longest time, I think I was trying to solve it from within and playing within the sandbox of healthcare, which has a lot of bureaucracy and red tape, and you need this title and that title and that title. So I actually like you know, entertained going into medicine um and taking that long route, which is also very self-sacrificial. I've have many doctor friends, and I've seen the toil and um the effort that they've put in that the healthcare system can kind of uh break your soul in the process, and a lot of them are still recovering um or you know, have to rank have had to wrangle with that burnout.

Taran Singh 18:11

Um the super the superhumous element of a doctor or the medical field makes it, you know, yeah, the awe is there, but as you said, like the grind also has it takes it toll. Um but I did what what you were saying there, sometimes a glass ceiling needs just a small pebble to knock it out, right? And and and you you found that small pebble of creativity in the world, in the world today where machines can whip up anything you desired, right? And so when you when you were going through this period, of course, you know that you must have your own doubts were and there were probably people in your circle that were your allies and and people that were probably no, you you can't quit being a being an ophthalmologist, which you are not quitting. How do you how do you harmonize these feelings when you are going through such a tough decision that has such an instrumental impact on the future you're going to create for yourself?

Rebuilding After Burnout And Darkness

Katherine Leviste 19:15

I'll be honest with you, this is extremely vulnerable because I've I've never said this like publicly. Last year, I wasn't sure that I was gonna make it to my next birthday. It was that devastating for me. But when you realize that none of those skills have been lost, that all of your joy is still waiting to be tapped under like a well, basically. So you have to resurvey the landscape that you're in, the landscape of yourself, um, and find out where the vitality like sources are because for so long you were tethered to something else. Um yeah.

Taran Singh 20:07

So that that tapping is such a such a key instinct of the human spirit that we can tap into and into something beyond our imagination, and and it can feed us and carry us away into into the neck next world, uh and even from our darkest corners into into the into the light. What and that's what what else? Yeah, go ahead.

Fixing Healthcare From Outside The Sandbox

Katherine Leviste 20:36

I'll say that that's what has always drawn me into medicine is um let me tie in like two things here because I've had recent conversations with friends, and you know, if we follow Myers Briggs and all that, it's pop psychology, but fine, we'll entertain it. It says that I am an introvert these days, yeah. They're like that, you talk to everyone. How can you possibly be an introvert? I'm like, you know, I spend a significant amount of time alone, and I actually tend to recharge alone, but I'm social. Your socialness does not determine whether you're like an introvert or extrovert, though at first glance it can look that way. It's actually how you recharge. Do you recharge more alone or around people? And I have to mentally prepare myself to be around people, actually. And you might be thinking, okay, Kat, what are you talking about? What does this have to do with medicine? I'll tell you. In trying to figure out this question, I realized that I had to develop a skill for medicine because I was in high school and college, I was mostly an introvert. Um, Miami brought out the extrovert in me, but prior to Miami bringing out the extrovert in me, medicine. In medicine, I had to learn those skills. I had to up update my operating system because when you are dealing with people in their darkest hour when you're around like all the family and their loved one is dying in front of you, there is so much implicit trust, knowledge, expertise, um, and like an instantaneous sort of collaboration between the healthcare provider and the family or the patient that happens in that moment where it's like you can almost throw credentials out the water. Like they're assuming that you are capable and competent enough, empathetic enough to be in that space for them to help guide them into what the next decision might be. And ultimately, as someone in healthcare, you are looking out for that person, their family, the whole ripple effect where your decision uh could affect, you know, not just the next hour, but the next 10 years of this person's life. So I've been really fortunate to be in those spaces and to learn from those spaces. And it breaks me to see that the healthcare system, the medical education system is so broken and it breaks people in the process. And I'm just wondering, wow, is there another way to fix this? It's still very dogmatic, it's old school. Um, but obviously there's something in the methodology that works, see one, do one, teach one. But now that we're in an era where information is just expounding at like an impossible rate, how are the future doctors supposed to then use the old school curriculum with all this new knowledge and are expected to keep up? It's like we need a new vehicle. So I've decided that at this juncture I'm going to step outside of the sandbox and build tools and resources to be integrated for the inside until someone, the gods of medicine, decide to overhaul the system from the ground up. It is unfortunately it's unfortunately too um too clunky and too intricate, where if you move one piece, like the whole thing needs to be readjusted.

Taran Singh 24:41

Um the financial financial incentives are on the other side, but but you're right that the world, especially with technology and machines, doing a lot of laborious work. How does what is the role of a doctor or a medical provider in the well-being of humanity and and how to do it best is the question that is that is top of the mind for I think for humanity in general, right? Because we we are growing, uh, we are aging and we are living more and we are using more resources, right? So that is a good field to be in to see what Cat can bring there. I I'm excited to see what comes out of the systems you're going to build and think. But one thing that you told me yesterday in our last conversation

Tall Poppy Syndrome And Creative Seasons

Taran Singh 25:27

was this. I've never heard that, but I've probably lived all my life in this tall poppy ecosystem. Right. And and the you know, the creative knock of the spirit, I I think is is like tall poppy. It finds you no matter the distance we go to hide ourselves. You moved from California to Miami to discover yourself in ways that you would have never if you would have just stick to, you know, at closer to your home, maybe. Uh, talk to us, you know, in in your perspective, this evolution of the wholeness and the oneness that the pieces that you're putting together for yourself and expressing yourself, uh, what creative adventures you are on, and what what you're thinking in your creative path uh to make yourself more whole and more expressive in the world you live and own.

Katherine Leviste 26:21

Yeah. Um, so the tall poppy syndrome, I had just learned about that recently. I have a Kiwi friend who told me about it, and down in Australia, New Zealand, they have this thing called the tall poppy syndrome. So if you imagine a field of poppies, the tallest poppy is the one that sticks out and it's more likely to be targeted and picked. And I guess in that part of the world, you don't want that. Because we were talking about work and pitching yourself, right? And she was like, Well, I'm from that part of the world, I don't know how to pitch myself. I was like, What do you mean? And she's like, We we don't do that, we don't talk about ourselves there. You don't want to be the tall poppy there. I was like, huh, interesting. And she goes, Yeah, here in America, you guys are groomed from sort of you know, the elementary days to to speak up for yourselves to kind of give an elevator pitch about it yourselves from the get-go. And um I never really thought about that until I heard the phrase. So um I guess I'm down in the grass again. I'm I'm not a tall poppy at all. And I don't know that I want to be, but um when you are to use the metaphor, it's our new you garden, right? Some plants, some species of plants grow better around other plants. Some of them need to grow in their own season, and then this season how I've been channeling my creativity is through music lately. Um pre-Miami, it was very visual. I did editorial photography, I like directed my own shoots, I worked with models and things like that. Um and then I also um worked on Cybervision Labs, which was kind of it was a nonprofit for emerging technologies that like we developed for community projects. Um I'm doing less visual things now, and I've always been uh fond of music. I played a little bit of piano growing up, um, but I just dabble. And I've always thought that DJs were very cool, they looked like they were having a blast. Um they

Music Therapy And Nervous System Reboot

Katherine Leviste 28:50

control the environment. They do, and I am a professional people watcher and uh also a vibe curator. I'm sort of I think my superpower is connecting people and bringing people together. Um, but I can also make people feel really comfortable, whether it's just you know on one-on-one conversation or if I'm in a group setting. So I've always been passionate about psychology too, and I realize that music can be a very therapeutic, sort of embodied experience for people. I've spent a lot of time in therapy, and in therapy, you talk about your trauma and your trauma and your trauma and your trauma. When you are in a I don't know, let's say like an outdoor music venue and they're playing music and stuff like that, you're just totally immersed in the moment and you're soaking it all in and you're creating new memories instead of reliving old memories that your body remembers. There's this great book called The Body Keeps the Score, right? And in my own um unbreaking, if you will, I had to learn how to reboot my own nervous system and sort of rebuild it from the ground up. Because in in my reintegration, if you will, I felt like there were certain triggers that would set me off, and I'm just like, wow, I don't like how I reacted to that.

Taran Singh 30:25

Yeah, that hamster wheel of trauma sometimes is hard for us as a brain, right? The brain to get out of its own self needs, it needs a creative, creative influx, and and music is an auxiliary for that. It can it can take you to a level where you can synchronize yourself without the past uh that is impending on your on your body heavily, right? And and and that's one of the reasons you know music is such a connective force across the world. Uh, in no matter what music you listen to, uh it has an impact. You know, in in in my belief, system sikhism, everything is coded in music, so which we are lucky, and I find something right and I listen. Every everything is because then we believe in oneness, and the and the way to carry that oneness is through the rhythm of music, the the rhythm of because it doesn't need a medium, you know, you don't need an understanding to understand medium uh music. Your soul already is attuned to understand that. Um yeah, I know, but I know who to call for my next uh next party is I know Kat is a person who can create the wife. Kathleen is the person who can create the wife. Uh uh moving on to on to your creative channels and and to our next thing that I wanted to pick pick a little bit off. Um, you know, we we talked, we touched on

Daily Courage And Dopamine Audits

Taran Singh 31:55

it uh and a little bit, is is the tap of courage, right? You always have that knack to get to courage, no matter the ups and the downs that you've gone through. And how do you find that tap of the courage and how do you nourish them, right? What is what is your uh what is what does it look like in Katherine's daily life to make sure that tap doesn't get you know away, uh hidden in the depth somewhere, but also how do you nourish this now since you're so aware of your state as the oneness you want to live?

Katherine Leviste 32:35

Yeah, I think that I had touched on sort of the landscape of yourself, right? Like exploring your own mountain, if you will. Um, and if if there was a massive earthquake that happened or um a landslide of some sort, you need to become your own sort of navigator, get back on the terrain and see how the geography has changed. And so you are remapping the environment, you're remapping how this this mountain works. Maybe an old path that you were stepping on is no longer a viable path, and you need to forge a new one altogether. Um what was the question?

Taran Singh 33:25

Yeah, no, that's a that's actually, you know, yeah, your navigation and I like what you said there, right? You have to find your own navigation when the landscape has changed. And and finding that navigation is the courage uh that that is your is is what you you know, your story, your life is journey is so full of.

Katherine Leviste 33:47

Right, right. And I think that's maybe where the courage comes from is the mountain will keep shifting, and we have to accept that that is always going to be part of the the living aspect of it. But we as the navigators um need to just take the next step. So instead of maybe having an existential crisis, just ask yourself, what do I want the next 20 minutes to look like? It could mean that you're gonna have a mental breakdown for 20 minutes, or maybe you go have a cup of tea and you sit outside in the sun for a little bit, or maybe you go take your books on a walk. That's my new favorite thing. So I don't have a big animal I can walk right now. So I've started taking my books on a walk because if I if I stay home and I read my books, I'm curled up on the couch. I'm yeah, getting lost in the book, but I'm curled up on the couch this way. I've found this like habit stock works really nicely for me where I'm getting sad, I'm getting movement, and I'm I'm powering through books.

Taran Singh 34:56

So um that's a that's a good idea.

Katherine Leviste 35:00

I've looked forward to in terms of also, yeah, like honoring my my analog life because I feel like, especially here in Silicon Valley, we're so entrenched in um technology that we I try to be mindful of stepping away from um from tech and making tech my source of dopamine. I don't think we do enough of like a dopamine audit in our lives, uh where you know certain social media, for example, is really designed to hijack those dopamine systems in the brain so that young people are just scrolling infinitely um on this doom scroll loop. And I've been off social media for a few years now.

Taran Singh 35:50

Yeah, that's our hamster wheel as as humans, right? That we can't, it doesn't look like a wheel, but it's endless. Um yeah, no, that's a that's thank you for sharing that. And yeah, we're almost at the tail end of our conversation here. But first of all, I want to thank you for coming. And you know, it's called the Mountain in Us, and one of the reasons we call it Mountain in Us is to bring stories like yours here. But I didn't pay you to say the mountain keeps shifting, so but I'm just yeah, I mean, we live in the land of earthquake, so yeah, this is this is such a great conversation that you know you've opened up yourself here and and shared some real instincts about how to find and live a life of courage, belonging, and longing. Um, any any last words for our our

Turning Down Noise For Coherence

Taran Singh 36:42

audience? Anything you would like to share uh before we wrap up here today?

Katherine Leviste 36:47

Yeah. Yeah, I think so much of uh our lives have been ruled by tech, by work, by these outside forces that I think we need to uh be mindful of. Um take account of what hamster wheel you're on, and remember that health and humanity are still at the core of why we do what we do. And don't forget the happier question, don't forget to tend to your village, be able to practice like the leadership of self and uh lead yourself first before you try and lead others, and nourish those high fidelity relationships. Um, because to use a sound analogy, you have high fidelity, like low noise channels, right? And then you have these other channels that might be low fidelity and has a lot of noise, right? And when you think of your own mind, there's so much outside noise happening. You don't know if it's coming from um work or the news, just daily life, but you have to figure out how to turn off the outside noise. Once you can turn that off, then you can listen to yourself and realize how much of your own brain is contributing to that inside noise. And once you can control the dials of the inside noise, then you can start you know playing with the symphony um of life, and um you know the cacophony is as loud as we allow it to be. So if you want coherent sound, find it within yourself first.

Taran Singh 38:39

Thank you. We'll land it there. Thank you for coming. Thank you for sharing all your insights and and the stories with us. Have a great day, Catherine.

Katherine Leviste 38:49

Thank you, Taran. Take care.