The “Strong Black Woman” Role Is Mentally Exhausting (Ep 17)

In this episode of the Thriving Loudly Podcast, we sit down with Clarke Scott, Licensed Professional Counselor and founder of Brazen Therapy, for a deep conversation about grief, perfectionism, social media, burnout, emotional healing, and the pressure Black women feel to always “have it together.”

We discuss:

-Why so many Black women struggle to rest
-The mental impact of constantly being perceived online
-Fear of being seen and fear of judgment
-Grief, emotional processing, and healing
-How perfectionism shows up as over-functioning
-Burnout, anxiety, and self-worth
-Social media addiction, doomscrolling, and comparison culture
-Why high-performing women are often deeply overwhelmed underneath
-The “strong Black woman” expectation and its psychological effects
-Healing, authenticity, and learning to soften

This conversation is honest, vulnerable, thought-provoking, and deeply needed.

If you’ve ever felt emotionally exhausted while trying to balance life, business, relationships, visibility, or success — this episode is for you.

Connect with Clarke Scott & Brazen Therapy:
Website: https://www.brazentherapy.org/
Instagram: @brazentherapy

If this episode resonated with you and you’re looking for support, healing, or a safe space to begin your mental health journey, make sure to connect with Clarke and the Brazen Therapy team.

Follow us on Instagram, TikTok & Facebook: @thrivingloudly

Don’t forget to like, comment, subscribe, and share this episode with someone who needs this conversation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Welcome back to Thrive and Loudly Podcast. I'm your host, Aisha. And I'm Ternice. And today's episode is a real one. We're talking about grief, mental health, perfectionism, social media, and what it actually looks like to be human while trying to hold it all together.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

If you've been struggling emotionally while balancing life, work, relationships, and visibility online, this is definitely an episode you're going to want to listen to all the way through. Oh, yeah. Yes. Yes. We are joined today by Clark Scott, a licensed therapist and founder of Brazen Therapy. Clark is a licensed professional counselor and founder of Brazen Therapy, a Phoenix-based group practice known for its affirming non-shame approach to mental health. Clark specializes in working with individuals, couples, navigating anxiety, relationships, challenges, life transitions, and identity exploration with a strong focus on BIPOC and LGBTQIA plus communities. Oof, that's a mouthful.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

I wanted to make sure that I said that. We're so excited to have you on the podcast. I know this conversation is so needed. I know for even myself, I've been going through so many life transitions and changes. So I know this will be an impactful.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here and talk about this. Yay. We're so excited to have you.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Oh, yeah. Okay. So before we get into anything, tell us a little bit about your background. How did you get into this? Um, and yeah, we would love to know.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Yeah. So um originally, like if I think about like Baby Clark, I would rush home after school and watch like Dr. Phil because I was like really into like um just like being not even being a part, but like listening to people's stories. And then of course, right, as I get older, I realize that he didn't really have his license.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

And um, but I didn't really um I did not know that. Yeah, I didn't know that either.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Yeah, so that's like a big thing. So technically he has like his doctorate in um, but he like wasn't licensed to practice because he didn't renew his license, anything like that. Um, so like he's still technically Dr. Phil, but like a lot of that stuff is like not above board, um, would have lost his license if he continued to do things that he did if he had one. Um, so yeah. Um so, but I really just get back to uh undergrad. I did a really fulfilling internship with Southern Arizona um Center against Sexual Assault, Sakasa and Tucson and went to UV. Um go, Wildcats.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Let's go bear down.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

And uh it was basically I did help for a uh rape crisis line where people could call in and just really um if they're being triggered and if they just need somebody to talk to while they're being activated. And I really connected with that part of the internship and then I'm meeting all the therapists that are doing the work with individuals who've been assaulted. And I just thought it was like the coolest thing in the sense of they get to be a part of that healing journey and they get to um help other people in that way. And so I was very much went to my counselor and was like, this is what I want to do. And she was like, You gotta go to grad school. I did that, and um, here I am, like at this point, almost a decade when I started that journey. And congrats. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

I love that. What inspired you to start brazen therapy? Was it just all your entire background of it building up, or was there a specific moment on you're like, wow, I want to really take this, start my own business, start my own practice?

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Yeah. So after I graduated um grad school, I did community mental health for a couple years. And that's kind of what the cycle was. You do your two years, you get your license, and you dip kind of thing. Um, but what I found during that time in community mental health is I personally feel like it's both exploitive to the therapists and also explodive to the clients because we don't really get a choice in the say in the matter of who we work with, how that work looks like, and same thing for the clients. So I originally started brazen therapy as something like solo dolo. Like I wanted to create a place that I wanted to work, um, but also a place that I would go to if I were seeking out my own therapy. And that's kind of the basis of like how I built my program um there. And that's why I started it. I wanted to basically empower both um therapists to be able to be in a work environment that valued their own mental health and wasn't um based in productivity, like you have to see X amount of clients all the time. And I wanted people to have access to quality therapists that also took insurance because I think sometimes there's a little bit of a misconception of if my therapist takes insurance, they're not good quality. Um, and so really just re um defining what that meant um for um individuals and therapists. I love that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

How would you describe your approach when it comes to therapy?

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Yeah, I'm deeply relational. Um, for a lot of my work, we can't get to the hard stuff, and I can't get to the deeper things if we do not have the relationship and the rapport. Um, so it's deeply relational, um, trauma-informed, right? We have to think about, I know the lot of people that reach out to me and based on my identities, um, have a lot of trauma within the medical system, but also in the therapeutic world, or this is their first experience in therapy. And so there's a lot of bit of pressure, but um as long as I keep it trauma informed based in relationships and also based in uh meeting them where they're at. And uh I think that's kind of how I well, not kind of, but that is how I practice therapy.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

So yeah. I love that. I'm a relationship person. Yes, too. So I believe in relationship, building that rapport first, I think across the board, just with anything that you do, you know, is building that rapport. So I love that. Um, what are you noticing people struggling with the most right now? Connection.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Um, people are really, really struggling um with finding their people, finding connections with individuals, um, past surface level stuff. I know, especially with like social media, there is this like almost like parasocial personas people put on. So it's like I'm thinking more about how I'm presenting to other people, and so I focus on that. And so when I'm meeting and connecting with other people, I'm not really connecting, I'm performing for them, and then I'm leaving these interactions feeling like I didn't connect at all, or that wasn't very helpful. Um, but yeah, connection, just like, and it's not even it's like across the board. So it's friendships, relationships, um family, like relationships. It's all across the board, but people are just really struggling to find where they fit with other humans.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Yeah, I'm dealing with that myself because I'm such a like deep person. When I meet people, I like to get in there and find out everything. Yeah, same. Yeah, yeah. And I just feel like within the last couple of years, I've just been met with people that are like surface level. And it's hard for me to connect because I'm not a fake person. You know, what you see is what you get. And so it's like when I meet you, I want to talk, I want to get to know you, you know. And oftentimes we are met with like the representative of the person. Yes. And it's like, I'm not gonna let you pass this wall, you know, because I've been hurt by XYZ or I don't want you to, I don't want to, you know, be vulnerable with you or whatever it may be. So I can definitely personally identify with that.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Yeah, yeah, I really love a lot of the points you brought up, um, especially when it comes to trauma and just kind of kind of seguing to grief a little bit on top of that. I know for myself I lost my grandparents um both within the last like year and a half. And that's been really hard for me. And I didn't realize how much it's been affecting me. And I don't I it's like it's one of those weird feelings because it's it's happened and I've, you know, you have no choice but to move forward. But trying to navigate such a significant loss because I was so close to them has been hard. It really has.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Yeah, I can identify too. Um, I lost my uncle about two years ago, and I was really close to him. He's like a brother um to me, and that's been hard too. You know, I'll have times where I'm like, okay, I feel like I'm good, you know, and then just out of the blue, I'll just break down crying, or if I see his picture, come across Facebook, or even like his profile on Instagram, that's the worst. Oh my gosh. You know, it's just it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

It's hard. Um, in your experience, how do you process grief when life doesn't slow down? Because I feel like I've been the busiest that I've ever been. And I feel like I can't really pause. How do you how do you move through it?

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Yeah, so I think about with grief in particular, um, it's not necessarily moving through it, but like moving like forward, right? Because the world keeps going. And when you're stuck in that space of grief, right, you almost have those moments of how can the world keep going? But it feels like this part of my life ended um when this person or these people passed away. And so um, the biggest advice I give about that is really just um letting yourself know and giving yourself that grace and space around it's not linear. So you will have days where um you're doing okay, and then um something reminds you of that individual, um, and then you're like feel like you got hit by a mac truck of grief. And so really just giving yourself um that autonomy and around like your grief is yours, you own it. And so how you move forward with it really is your timeline, and it's not performative in any way. Um and it's never gonna go away. I think that's like a huge part of folks when they come to therapy and they want to work through their grief, is they're like, I want to stop feeling sad all the time. I wanna stop this pain. And it's like, what if I told you that the pain doesn't actually stop? It just becomes more manageable. And as long as you keep telling yourself that, um, it'll eventually become true, right? Um, and I think especially like with family members that pass or really close people to us, you're always gonna feel that tinge of grief because live things happen. You're not only grieving their physical presence, but you're also grieving a future with them that you never got to come through fruition. And so reminding yourself of that too.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

I think that's that's a great way to look at it. Yeah. What does healthy grieving actually look like?

SPEAKER_02 11:25

It's messy, right? Um, and that's okay. And um not giving yourself a timeline, right? Not comparing yourself to other griefs, not listening to other people's comparisons to your grief.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Um, and trying your best to like stop off the societal pressures because um I lost a partner at the end of grad school, and I remember all the time people like you feel people's awkwardness around it. They want to ask how you're doing, but um, it's like they want you to say good and you can feel that because they're not ready to get into it. And I had a lot of shame around like, oh, there's so much time that has passed, I should be over this. Um, but really just giving yourself that time.

unknown 12:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Um, and it's okay to not be okay. And like I said, it comes in waves, it's not linear. Um, I remember very much like having a good week. And I remember I saw a Jew said he liked to drink in Trader Joe's, and I broke down in Trader Joe's and that poor tenant that was trying to help me. Um, but like, right, that's the messy part of grief. And as long as I feel like you're going through those ebbs and flows, you're dealing with it in a healthy way.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

So I love that.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

I love that you brought that up. And I know I'm in a place, um, you know, specifically because I lost my grandfather in February, um, where I haven't been really vocal with a lot of people in my life about it, like especially friends and, you know, you know, even people I know within, you know, other creators that I know that I'm close to and I haven't really spoken out about it, or even on my platforms. Um, why do so many people grieve alone? Because I'm kind of in this isolation phase where because you know, once you mention it, people are like, Are you okay? What can I do? And there's like this slew of messages, slews of you know, people trying to reach out, and I just feel I'm not ready to talk about it. Is that normal or should I start talking about it? Because it's been a few months. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

So it's perfectly normal. So when I think about like you're processing the grief, right? Yeah. You have you've known you knew him for how long? And so it's only been a couple months. So it totally makes sense that, right? You're still processing what the grief means to you, how it's showing up in your life. Um, and so if you're not in a space where you're ready to talk about it, like give yourself permission. That's totally okay. Um, because I think when you are ready to talk about it, the feeling like it's it's so much better when you're ready to do it versus when you feel like you're pressured to do it. Um and I in like working through my own grief, it was very much like when I was ready to talk about it, it was good. I felt like I was in a place to talk about what happened, talk about um who he was, and that was very comforting to me. And but what wasn't comforting is right, even in therapy at the time, I really wasn't trying to talk about it that much. I was just crying a lot because I wasn't ready. And so I think that's perfectly fine. And just don't pressure yourself to do that.

SPEAKER_03 14:39

Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

It's okay to isolate because we really just want to kind of sulk and kind of lick our wounds for lack of a better analogy, but like that's what we're doing, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

And I think everybody is different, you know, everybody grieves differently. Like I'm more of an outward person when it comes to emotions. I like to talk, I like to express myself. Some people are inward, you know, some people like to keep it to themselves and that's how they process. Maybe they want to just talk to one person and that's how they, you know, grieve and heal. So I think it's also about the type of person that you are too. Yeah. Maybe it's not your time to talk to someone. Maybe that's not, you know, what you need to do. Maybe it's internal anymore, you know?

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think for myself, because this is like the first, I guess, I guess, like slew of major losses in my life. I don't know what to think. You know, uh, you know, I'm, you know, in my 30s, so this is like the first time I'm like, okay, I'm being hit with this. Yeah. And so I don't know what to feel or how to move through it. So it's like I I just didn't want to be the first thing I do when it happened to go on social media and say, hey, this happened. And some people are like that. I have friends that, you know, you know, lost people important in their life, and you know, they made an announcement a day or two later. And I've just not been that person because I'm like, I just want to process this because this is so new to me. This is different territory. I haven't experienced this before. And so it's been just very personal. Yeah. And so it's just interesting to hear that. I guess that I guess that confirmation for me that it's okay. Um, and you know, when I'm ready, I'm ready. And um, yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Um, some of the things that we do for my uncle to like celebrate him and keep him going is for his birthday, we'll celebrate him. Um, since I don't, I live, I'm from Wisconsin, but since I'm not there, um typically like my family, they'll go to his gravesite and they'll celebrate. Um, and then also for his death anniversary, you know, we try to find some way to celebrate him as well, just to keep it going, you know, and we'll um we'll laugh, you know, because we know he loved to tell jokes and just kind of laugh, like this is some things that he would say. And I think doing those things kind of keep the memories going and it helps with grief as well. So it doesn't feel so, you know, sad. It's like now it's just a remembrance.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Yeah, and I always encourage people to do that. Um, find ways that you can memorize them. It doesn't even have to be right with family, but individual ways. Like um, my partner that passed, he really, really loved crab legs. So every year on his birthday, I either go to a restaurant and eat crab legs or I'll go to the grocery store, buy them and cook them and eat them. Um and I'm married now, and so um he also knows that that's a part of the my grieving process. Um and it's like, hey, do you want to participate or not? And so just to give you like an idea of like grief is yours, doesn't belong to anybody else, and however you decide to memorialize that and or celebrate that, I think that's yours.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

And so yeah, I know we're going to segue into social media because we talked about that and how people are just very they're trying to find community, they feel more alone than ever. And I know for myself, I feel like as a content creator, you're always on and we're trying to post and we're trying to do all these things. And, you know, it's it's just been really challenging from a therapist standpoint. What does constant visibility do to someone? Um, whether it is they're trying to be a creator or they're just trying to keep up with the Joneses. You see people online who are living these lavish lifestyles and they have this great job or they're an influencer that's making a million dollars a year, and you're just like, how do I compare? And then also you're you feel so isolated with just the doom scrolling. Yeah. What does that do to someone?

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Yeah, so there's two parts to this, right? So if we think about just being visible on social media, it creates this hypervigilance. And right, hyperviligence has a purpose within our bodies, but it's not meant to be on all the time, right? It's a trauma response. Of you're constantly aware of how you're being perceived, right? You find yourself even, um, I'm doing this not because I want to, but I'm gonna do this. And how am I being perceived? So you're thinking about all the things, and it keeps your brain in this constant state of um comparison, this space around um anxiety and just really focusing on the actions, not the feelings or your emotions around those actions. Um, and we think about like the dual, the Doom Scroll, right? Um, we as humans are not meant to process this much information, um, positive and negative, all the time on a constant wherewithal, right? It's developmentally appropriate within your own circles and community to compare yourself to people that you know and have a relationship. That's normal, but social media has taken it to a space where um, like even thinking about my own clients, right? Um they're not telling me about, hey, this person that I know is like a millionaire by 23. It's like somebody saw on social media. So it's like almost these unrealistic standards that people are striving towards, and then they're getting upset when they're not reaching them, but not necessarily knowing the nuance of people are only posting what you want, what we want you to see. They're not posting the flaws and the mess ups or posting everything and the highlight reels of their lives. But that puts us in a space of um constantly trying to compare ourselves, constantly over aware about how we're acting, and then also which then leads to disingenuous connections and you're now performing, you're not really taking a part in life in the ways in which um feel natural and okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

So yeah, that's that's kind of where I'm at because I'm in a weird spot right now, um, just doing podcasting now and having a little bit more visibility than what I'm used to. And it's like, how do you how do you show up in real life now? You know, it's like you have this new pressure on you, and you know, it's like do you go into this superficial, you know, way of being because you're trying to perform and keep up, or do you still continue to be your authentic self? You know, and going back to me being an authentic authentic person just doesn't feel good for me, you know. So I struggle with do I want to be a part of social media like this, you know, because I feel like I'm getting away from who Trineese truly is, you know, and I never want to be um superficial or just always performing or always on. Um, so I'm glad that you brought that up and and kind of shared more light on that. Um, can constantly being perceived affect your sense of worth? I know you kind of talked about that. Could you like lean a little bit more into it?

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Yeah, absolutely. So um it definitely can because right um when you're being perceived or you're like right. This whole thing about you feeling seen, it creates this internal pressure, but also this internal contract of I must perform. And then I get X, Y, and Z positive reactions. And so that internal contract that we make with ourselves when we're doing that performance, it eventually gets away from us in this way of um we start to feel as though we don't deserve things because we did not perform for them. If the good things happen to us. Oh goodness. But we like don't realize it because, right? If we're um, and then it's also this space around because social media is so instant, um, a lot of folks that are being perceived are also very anxious about like, well, now I can't make mistakes at all because somebody's gonna get on TikTok and do a 32-part story about this one interaction with me.

SPEAKER_03 22:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

And so um we really shut down the um emotional parts of ourselves because to be perceived is also to be vulnerable. And vulnerability for a lot of us means it's not safe because we don't trust people with that part of ourselves because of the stuff that we've been seeing um around and just our personal past experiences too.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Yeah, I would say that's definitely been a fear of mine. Um, because I would say there's recently been a like an experience where someone like commented on a video saying, um, I don't know what they were saying, but something like, oh, I saw you and you know, you seemed mean, something weird. It was like something so crazy. And I was like, I don't know where you saw me and I don't, yeah, yeah. It's just those random things, and you get kind of like nervous about that. You're like, oh, you know, maybe I was just at a grocery store and I was like in the zone and just picking up apples, and I just maybe had like a resting bitch face. Yeah, I don't know. Like, you know, you just don't know. And it's just, it's just really, it's just really hard because you just feel like you're always like having to be hyperaware, especially being online and being seen, because someone can have a maybe a short two-second interaction or they see you and then they make assumptions on that. And I know for myself, when I did see that comment, I didn't want to argue with it. Yeah. And I was just like, I'm not gonna try to correct them. I think my whole mindset now is especially if you want to grow in this space and be a creator or put yourself out there, you have to be okay with being misunderstood. Yeah. Um, and then that's and that's something that's been really sitting with me the last few weeks because I've always had this fear um over the last couple of years, like, am I gonna say the wrong things or someone gonna comment on this or someone gonna comment on that? And I have to be okay with being misunderstood. And not everybody's, I'm not gonna always be everybody's cup of tea. Um, and I'm not perfect either. I'm human. And you know, that's okay. And it's hard. You know, it's hard to have to come to that realization, um, especially for someone like me. I always grew up being a very much of an introvert wallflower. Um, never, you know, raised my hand in class because I was always like just so nervous to be around people and put myself out there. Um, but I just feel like you can't live like that forever. No.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Yeah, yeah. And then I think about like right, stuff like that of comments, right? A lot of the times people aren't expecting to be engaged either. Like for the anonymity, I think I said it right, um behind like the screen, right? Yeah um emboldens a lot of people to just do stuff they normally wouldn't do. And so even if you were to engage, right? Yeah, they probably wouldn't have engaged back or up the ante because like that's what they wanted, and or they were not expecting it, and they were also caught off guard. Um, not that it justifies those comments, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:48

But some people have the time, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Go back and forth.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

They will, and they just want the attention, right? They wanted to get your attention, and maybe that was the way to do it, yeah. Right. And so that's why I don't really engage with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Commentary anymore. Yeah, and I even think about like when I used to work with youth a lot, a lot of them were like, Oh, I'm trying to get a hit comment. And so they would just say wild off-the-wall stuff on different creators' videos because it didn't even have to do with the creator. It was like, how many likes can I get on this comment? Yeah. Um, and so it's like that seeking of constant validation, I think, which is really hard. Um, but we just can't play into it a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

So how do you separate your real self from your online identity?

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Um, I'm gonna be honest, I don't have an online identity. Um and partially because um I am very like scared of the internet in the way of um, I feel like there's always drama around therapists that have a huge online presence. And so I think I use social media for like it's as a tool for me. Um, and so I don't put anything online that I don't mind being critiqued, um, that I don't mind sharing with people and or that I would feel any type of way about. And I try to keep it as a very professional front. And as far as like my personal online presence, um, same thing. Like if I wouldn't engage with people in real life, I'm probably not engaging with them online either. Yeah. And so I really just try to remind myself that it is in fact a highlight reel of my friends' lives. And if I have the relationship with them, I also know the stuff that is going on, negative, neutral, anything like that. But um I really just try to remind myself that like how I'm showing up here, how I'm showing up in real life with my family, friends, clients, that's the real me. Yeah. Whatever I put online is just kind of like whatever I'm into or a cool thing that I saw.

unknown 27:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

And I like that you brought that up about, you know, you're not gonna put something online that you don't mind being critiqued on. And I think that is um, I know we kind of touched on it on a on one of our last episodes that, you know, if you're putting your relationship out there, you're putting, you know, maybe even your weight loss journey or your fitness journey or personal business about your family or your finances. And you're putting that out there, you are, you know, you're inviting commentary on those topics. And so if you don't want people to have any feedback or clap back, you know, avoid those types of topics or you know, just you know, share things that you're comfortable with being critiqued about, right? Because people are always gonna have an opinion. I know even when I go to a restaurant, someone sometimes there's comments saying, I went here, I hate it, this sucked, you're a liar. Yeah. And it's like, you know, I'm okay with that commentary because you know what? Everybody has different taste buds, everybody has a different experiences. Well, I like, I like spicy food. You may not like spicy food, you may like your food bland, and that's okay. You know what I'm saying? And so it's not always going to land with everybody. And so again, you just have to like brush off those types of comments, you know, when they come through.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Yeah, and I'm not afraid to admit it. I am quick to block and delete people. Like you're not gonna make me feel bad on the phone that I pay for. Yeah. Um, I love that in any way, shape, or form. So um, if I don't like anything, I'm gonna block it. I'm gonna unsubscribe from that feed, what have you. Um, because I think for me, that's how I protect a lot of my pieces. My feed is pretty much filled with things that I enjoy, I care about, and or is meaningful to me. And so when I just don't see it, I just like click, delete, I'm over it. So yeah, I do that too.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

A lot of blocking and deleting. Yeah. Um, are you seeing more people struggle mentally with social media, like your clients like coming in specifically for social media?

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Yeah, so it's really interesting because it always goes in waves, right? Or at least how I notice it in my practice. So um everybody pretty much has those New Year's resolutions, being like, I'm off of social media, but then summer hits because everybody's traveling and I'm like, okay, I want people to know that I'm in like Greece or wherever they're going. Um, but I always try to point out our sessions and their quality of life is almost always better when they delete the apps off their phone and they disengage with it intentionally. So even if they still have it online, but having to go to Safari or your internet browser to log into Instagram is way harder than having that open access. Um and I would also say, right, maybe not necessarily just social media related, but a lot of their depressive symptoms sometimes are instigated by not feeling where they feel like they should be, and they're only getting those messages from social media and internet at large. So um having a lot of deep shame and um depression around, I feel like I should be at this certain place in my life. Um, every time I get online, somebody's getting married, having a baby, graduating, buying a house, right? And so I feel like it's a little bit more insidious, insidious than we think that it is, because even though, like rationally, it's like I'm not in a space to do X, Y, and Z. That's why I haven't done it. Um but our brain tells us the reason why I haven't done that thing or achieved that thing is because I am not worthy or I haven't worked hard enough. And so then we kind of spiral into that, and I see that a lot too.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Yeah, and I like that you were mentioning about you know having to just delete the apps. I know I personally can't because this is my job. This is your job. But I bought a brick, and so it's just like this little brick, you tap it on your phone and it just blocks you out of everything. So I'll brick my phone at nighttime. So I can't get on TikTok or Instagram, and then it stays bricked throughout the day. That way I can get more tasks done. I'm not doom scrolling because I even as a creator fall into that rabbit hole of doom scrolling, and then you're seeing you're comparing, you know, girls on a brand trip with NARS beauty, and you know, you're just like, oh my gosh, I wish I could be there. And you're just like watching and consuming instead of like creating and getting stuff done. So that's been really beneficial for me because I was shocked about the amount of screen time I had on these apps. I think I was averaging like 10 to 12 hours on Instagram and TikTok a day. That's a lot. That's like a full work day where I could be getting other things done in my life. And I just I was realizing I was becoming anxious because of the amount of content I was constantly consuming. Um, and so it's been helping me a little bit for sure. Um, in terms of social media, are people becoming more insecure without realizing it because of these apps and what they're seeing online? Yeah, I've it's like this constant comparison all the time.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Yeah. Um and I think about the insecurities, really, it's like this deficit mindset of like, I don't have X, Y, and Z. And um instead of just being like, okay, these are the goals that I want to work towards, it's very much there's something within me that I don't have that um is the reason as to why I don't have these things or I haven't been able to get these things. Yeah. And so the insecurity I think has peaked a lot. And I feel like I even see more of an influx of like my male clients even talking more about um the insecurities and pressures around being able to provide, what that looks like. I see that, yeah. And not realizing that wow, I have a lot of the insecurity around this. But for a lot of my folks, it really bleeds into their relationships, the insecurities. So it's like they're not online seeing these things and beefing with the creator that's making them feel this way. They're going to their loved ones and they're beefing with them because um it's triggers something in them that makes them like not want to engage with people in a authentic way. Um, and so it's just really rough all around.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Yeah. What's a healthy amount of time that that you should spend on social media? Like from your standpoint, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Yeah. Um I don't necessarily find like a measurement on it. Um but uh I think that when you're you like it's a social media is a tool. And I think that as much as we like shit on it for being awful, I think it's also it's how people make livings, sustainable livings. It's how people are connecting with other people with their same interests, um, and and how they're connecting to communities that they wouldn't have otherwise connected with. And so I think that if you're using social media as a tool in what it's supposed to be to enhance your social life and or um give you access to information and opportunities that you wouldn't have had access to without it, I think that's a healthy amount, social media. Now, as far as like hours and stuff like that, I couldn't tell you. Um, but I also saw my screen time a couple months ago and I've had since then had to be very intentional about like how I'm spending that time on social media. But I think as long as you're engaging with it um in a way that feels helpful and productive to you, I think that's healthy.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

Yeah, it's good. I'd agree with that. All right, we're gonna segue into the fear of being seen. Yeah. So I feel like people say they want more, but they're also scared of being seen. Um, so again, for me, you know, being new, stepping into podcasting, being a little bit more visible than what I typically am, I was so afraid, I'm like me and I used to talk about this all the time, of being seen. Because I'm like, I don't know how people are gonna perceive me. And, you know, I had to go through all that. And now I feel like I'm on the other, the other side of it. But it was scary for me, you know, because it's like people are gonna have their opinions whether it's good or bad, you know, and it's like, you know, people say that they want to be content creators and they want to grow this huge following. It's like until you're putting that pressure cooker and you start to see, you know, it's like you you're second, you second guess, like, is this what I really want?

SPEAKER_01 36:33

You know, and so um yeah, I would have to also piggyback on off of that because it's like you want growth, but a lot of people don't want the exposure that comes with it. That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, exposure. The exposure. Yeah, to be vulnerable. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

Because just even working with her, um, like our our podcasting account, we got up to like over a hundred thousand views, you know. And for for little old me, I'm like, this is intimidating, you know. She for her, this is like, oh, this is just another day, this is nothing. But I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, like this is getting real. And so it's like, how how does a person adjust to that? You know, like how do you go from maybe only a couple hundred, you know, thousand people seeing seeing you on a regular basis to now hundreds of thousands, you know, maybe millions, you know, in the future. And it's like, how do you deal with that? How do you handle that when you're not used to that type of visibility or pressure?

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Yeah. Um I think about it as like, right, and this is like obviously total therapisty of me, but like getting to the root cause of why feeling seen really doesn't feel good, right? For a lot of people um when they were younger or like right in their um previous history, being seen usually means that you're the target of something. Um, it was you were always met with negative interactions when you were seen or people saw you. Um, and so really unlearning right around like you can be seen, and um, the reason why that you're doing the things that you're doing to be seen is right to connect to other people in the community, um, talk about things that are important to you and just be a resource other people and reminding yourself of that. Um, but then also realizing it's just an adjustment as things get bigger. Um, and so um I think about like in my context, right? Um, all the time I'm in the store and people are like, you look so familiar. And I'm not just gonna be like, Have you been looking for a therapist lately? Like um because like right, a lot of the times they don't make that connection. Or right, if they are a client of one of my clinicians and I'm around the office and they see me, but I remember feeling so overwhelmed because it's like I feel like I didn't sign up for that visibility. I signed up to be visible to my clients and that was it.

SPEAKER_03 39:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Um, but realizing that what at my at my core, I want people to have more access to mental health um resources and or be comfortable with therapy.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

So I essentially, part of me being seen is really just to help other people. And as long as I I remember that's my core value, I think that would get easier. And so I would probably say it could be similar for you. Um, I also don't know what I would do if a hundred thousand people viewed anything that I did. I probably would feel very anxious, but I think that's normal and okay. Yeah. Um, and that's right, more often than not, it's probably a good response versus negative responses. So yeah. Yeah. I don't know what your stats are.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

You just you get used to it. I guess I don't know what to say about it, but I mean, it yeah, you just get used to being visible. And I mean, it takes time. I mean you said it's an adjustment, it's an adjustment, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

It's an adjustment, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Yeah, you just gotta just be rooted in your why, the why you're doing this, and it it gets better over time for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, going into perfectionism, I feel like a lot of black women weren't just raised to be strong, we were raised to be exceptional. Um, like average was just never, never an option for us. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Black excellence. Yeah. And that turns to always feeling like you have to have everything together.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

How does perfectionism show up in black women? Um, especially, you know, now in this day and age, um, in and especially now that, you know, we're statistically becoming the most educated, you know? So where does is that more of like a trauma response? Like what is what is happening, what is shifting in um in black women's mental health?

SPEAKER_02 41:03

Yeah, so what we're finding the shift in black women's mental health, especially around perfectionism, is right, um, we are rewarded by our own peers and like right, non-black peers for our resilience and our strength, right? Often with a lot of my friends, it's like, I'm tired of being God's strongest soldier. Like, believe me be. Um, but when people compliment us, like if you think about some of the work that you do in your daily life, um, people are always commenting about how you um survive things. So then it becomes rooted in this weird survival space of okay, I'm really not doing anything on um less I am doing everything completely right, I can make no mistakes, and that's really, really hard. And then for a lot of black women, sometimes depression is also sometimes miss not misdiagnosed, but like um they think a lot about if I'm failing and I'm feeling depressed, they're like, I'm like, oh, that sounds like depression to me. They're like, no, I'm just a failure. And so it's this big internalizing of like, okay, we can talk about that you're may not be where you were where you want to be, but like you're not inherently a failure because you're not rising to these expectations. And so really having to delineate, um, like you're okay, it's okay for you to make mistakes, but it doesn't feel like we can because usually when we mess up, people either over-correct us, um, or we get to a space to where if we make a mistake, we'll beat up on ourselves first before anybody else gets the chance to. Um, because even though it in a way is me harming myself, I'd rather do it than give somebody else a chance to do it. And so a lot of that cyclical um negative thoughts and yeah, and I feel like for me, um even like as a business owner, I am very strict with my team sometimes because not because I don't think that they're incredible, it's because when you mess up, they're not gonna be like, oh, so and so messed up. They're gonna be Clark messed up. This is a reflection on brazen. And so even trying to stop myself in those moments is really hard, but it's really hard because society tells us that this is our expectation and this is what we um can adhere to, and then we play into that as well.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like a lot of us are over functioning to compensate for yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

Um and it's like we also um, I don't know how you guys are about rest or how well you guys do it in your personal.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

I'm trying now.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

I'm I don't Help you real the struggle, right? Um, sometimes we equate exhaustion with success. So if we are very much exhausted at our wit's end, it's like I'm supposed to feel this way because that means I did what I was supposed to, and really unlearning that. Um, overperforming, over-explaining ourselves. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

So that part, yeah, guilty of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

So when we make mistakes, even it's the smallest thing, we feel like we have to tell you the beginning, the end, right? Um, and apologize for that when people who aren't black women don't feel that same amount of pressure to overexplain themselves.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Yep. Um, yeah.

unknown 44:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

I can yeah, I can definitely identify that. I think I'm in a space now because I'm just like so tired. I have so much going on, and I'm just like, I think it comes back to the over-functioning, just the black excellence, trying to show up so perfect, trying to have everything together. And it's like, that's not realistic. You know, like you have to scale it back and you have to get real with yourself. You know, you don't have to always be on, you don't have to always go above and beyond. It's like trying to find a healthy balance of where I can still show up as trainees, still give good service, you know, still be a good person, but I don't have to be available all day. I don't have to, like you said, explain yourself, you know, just all day, every day. Like that's exhausting. Explain yourself all day, every day. And it's like I haven't even gotten to my work or things that I need to get done because I'm explaining, you know, 24, 7, 7 days a week. So I can, I can personally identify with that.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Yeah, and we're also setting up ourselves for these expectations because right, when we try to make that shift of like, I'm going to give what I can and what I have the bandwidth for. Um, I don't know if it's similar for y'all, but when I start to set those boundaries, I get very negative visceral reactions because people expect me to show up how I've been showing up. Yeah. Um they don't like that. Yeah. They can't stand it. No. So it's like, wow, I didn't even realize I was doing that much until I decided to step back. Scallop back. Yeah. And now you're in my inbox or you're talking to me any kind of way because I gave you that expectation that I would follow up immediately or I would go to the ends of the earth for you. And when I realized that wasn't sustainable and I tried to communicate to you that that, and I thought we had that relationship. Now we're beefing. And it's like, yeah, that's the real thing. Yeah. And I was not prepared for that when I started doing that dialing back. It's like, whoa, I would still what I would do for you is still a lot. Yeah. But just not what I was doing before. And I thought we were okay, but I guess not. And so it's really hard to like step back from that overperformance because sometimes we want to avoid those interactions. So we're like, oh, like F it, I'm just gonna go do it this one last time, or I'm gonna slowly ghost this person until they would just stop asking me for stuff altogether, but we never have that confrontation or that boundary communication.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

So set expectations. Yeah, that's what I've learned, yeah, as a business owner. So anytime I take on new clients and stuff, I just try to set expectations. Like if you're in this package, or you know, if we're working together in this capacity, this is what the expectations are. Her and I talk about all the time, like me being on a schedule. I'm like, I have to be on a Monday through Friday. Yeah. Because when I start making exceptions on the weekends, and then that's how the lines get blurred, and then I'm working seven days a week and I'm burnt out again, you know. So I think yeah, definitely setting those expectations is that you have to do it.

SPEAKER_02 47:31

Yeah, when I first started like my own practice by myself, I was working Saturdays and Sundays, like and because I at that time I was like, okay, anytime a client wants to see me, but then when I started to get um more booked and more busy in that way, when having those conversations was really hard because they're like, Well, you've been doing Saturdays for like a year and a half, and I'm like, my personal life will not survive if I continue to Saturdays and Sundays. Um, I need to have a schedule, I need to have the expectation back. And so now, right, five years later, from starting my practice, it's like, hello, I do not work. I don't work Mondays, I do have a schedule on Fridays. I'm in person these days, but it's it gets easier, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

Yeah, it does. No, I I I know I completely understand. I think even with what I do, and I get so many businesses and brands that reach out to me, and I'm one person, so I would love to do everybody and go go to every place, but it does get hard. And I remember I got it's not too long ago, I got an email from an agency. They're like, it's so unlike you not to respond to our you know, invites and stuff. And I'm like, I was like, oh, it's just when you get booked and busy, it's just it gets hard to balance everything. And because you used to be, I used to be that person, it's like, yes to everything. I'm gonna go to every single thing. I'm gonna show up, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna film every video, I'm gonna do that. And I've realized I'm like, okay, that's not sustainable. I'd be um at a restaurant seven days a week and I wouldn't, you know, wouldn't have anything outside of that and filming. And so yeah, you just have to find that balance and those boundaries, which you know, I'm I'm learning as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Does some women struggle with um, you know, being soft or feeling like I want to have this soft life because they've never truly had it or they don't know what it looks like?

SPEAKER_02 49:20

Yeah. So um I think it's both. Um, and I think we can even talk about it from like a systemic perspective. Like there are some women um base like a different identity and background that get the opportunities to be afforded to be more soft, um, and people reinforce those things. Um, but at the end of the day, softness really relates to safety, right? Who can I feel soft around? Who is going to treat me with that level of care that I feel like I would like to be um treated? And so um a lot of the times it's really hard for women to be soft in general because they've been told by peer society that you don't get to be soft because you do not have these identities, or um, as a person that's in a larger body. Like I think a lot of the times I struggled really. Um, do I deserve a soft life? Because people naturally are just a little bit rougher with me and how they handle me as far as like socially or like interacting. Um, and so really just unlearning that, like, right, say soft life really starts with safety, um, but also you being soft with yourself first before you expect other people to be soft with you as well. Um and I noticed when I started to make that shift of like, I'm tired of being like the strong, fat, funny friend. I really want to be, I still want to be funny, but like I still um want to be soft. And so um, when I notice that people aren't treating me that way, I either call them out or I'm just like, hey, I'm just not gonna engage with that because that's not really where I'm trying to be right now.

SPEAKER_03 51:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:00

Um, and for the most part, people have respected it, but I think it also really just starts you really truly intrinsically believing that you deserve a soft life because everybody does deserve that and um that sense of safety.

SPEAKER_01 51:13

I agree. Does being self-sufficient make it harder to receive that support? Because I I feel that, you know, being the oldest of my family, you know, even my mom growing up, she was definitely more so, you know, a single mom for a while. But even when she did get remarried, she was a breadwinner. She at one point worked three jobs. Yeah, like so. She's always been like a hustler. And I feel like I took a little bit on from her to where I was like, I gotta work, I gotta grind, I gotta make money. So I feel like sometimes I stay very much in like this masculine energy to some extent. So how do you work through that when you know you maybe grew up in a in a space to where that wasn't allowed to be soft? You were taught you need to work, you need to, you know, fight for what you want. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

I mean, I'm gonna be honest with you, I'm still working through that. Yeah, yeah. Same thing, oldest daughter. And for me, um I think about it as a lot of us that are really self-sufficient, it's because we learned early on that we could not depend on other people um to accomplish things that we wanted to accomplish. So I think there's a part of me that still doesn't want to let that go because I still want to accomplish the things that I want to. I'm still very an ambitious person. So I don't think I'll ever not be sufficient. Um, but I think being in a partnership in which I can rely on someone to take care of some of those things that I necessarily wouldn't always have to do. I think in having that consistency and like being able to rely on people, that has helped me and learn a lot. Being like, okay, I can rely on some people, or right, focusing on what I can control and what I can't control. A lot of the stuff that I'm stressed about or trying to be self-sufficient about, I really can't control. Um, and so trying to find the balance of okay, this is a part of me that's always going to be a part of me. That's okay and totally all right. Um, but am I willing to let other people in and do things for me or help me out? And you're able to see that consistency, I think is really helpful as well.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

Yeah, I think that's something that I'm I'm learning to just being in a partnership. Cause I, like I said, being the oldest, you know, I I have like five siblings. So, you know, I had to be the one to be like, okay, you know, babysit, do all the things. Even to this day, I still like lead my siblings. Like if we're doing something, I'm like making the plans, I'm doing all of that. So for myself, it's been challenging to let that go because I'm always like, I like to be in control. But I I know I need to allow other people to step in, whether even if it's just for help, because a lot of times she knows because she also works with me, like in my business, I'm like wanting to do it all. Like I want, you know, even my even my talent manager's like, girl, you need to scale a bit. Yeah, we need to take it down. So that's just been it's been challenging. It's been challenging, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:09

And I married an only child, so um the juxtaposition of like could not be bothered very much of like, well, yeah, I'll help you, or X, Y, and Z, but this very much doesn't feel that same amount of pressure, or even like when I was coming here, it was like, you need to leave now. Um, but it like the support in the space of not having to manage all that a lot is really helpful because they grew up in a world in which they could rely on people. Yeah. Um, not that I couldn't rely on, but like just these reiterations of yeah, that's what it looks like to grow up with that secure attachment in that way. So yeah. And I'm I'm on the other side too.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

I'm the baby. Like, yeah, I've been spoiled. So I'm like unlearning some of those things and learning more independence and stuff. So I can see both sides. So, what's one thing you want people to take away from our conversation today? I know we talked about a lot about mental health, we talked about grief, we talked about professionalism, being a black woman. Um, if you could, you know, tell our viewers something, what's one thing that you'd like them to take away?

SPEAKER_02 55:19

Yeah, that like your journey really is yours, right? Um and when we start being intentional about how we think about how we're processing emotions, grief, that perfectionism piece, um you really have to just think about it as like it's never gonna be the same for another person. Comparison doesn't really matter in the sense of your life is yours and their life is theirs, and it doesn't matter if you do exactly what they do, your experiences are still gonna be different. And so really being intentional about how you're showing up in the world. Um, and almost always people are rewarded in like a positive sense of like if you're showing up and being your true authentic self, people will see that and view that, and that'll also help you foster those uh connections. Um and really that just like perfectionism is a journey. Um, unlearning it and then figuring out what works for you. Uh yeah, I think that's most of it.

SPEAKER_01 56:17

Okay. Um, what are you building or stepping into right now that you're excited about? What's next for you?

SPEAKER_02 56:24

Yeah. Yeah. So for me, it's a professional development summer. So um I'm doing internal family systems training. I'm doing um EMDR as well as EFT training. So like I'm really trying to be like in my bag as far as modalities and different things. Love it. Um, as a business, we just started a partnership with one in 10. Um, so um therapists um at my practice are doing drop-in um mental health therapy sessions for one in 10 folks. And so just developing that program and getting that started, I think it's been really helpful. And yeah, it's just really trying to, I really wanted to focus on my own self-development, personal development as a therapist because I feel like sometimes when I get into the business mode, I'm getting farther away from the clinical. Yeah. And then really investing and nurturing the therapists that are working with me now and helping them build their own careers and whatever that looks like.

SPEAKER_00 57:26

So I love that. Yeah. And then do you just service BIPOC and um queer individuals?

SPEAKER_02 57:33

No, I will service anybody that feels like they have a connection with me pretty much. So um I think a lot of people are really drawn to me because I um hold a lot of those identities, but also anybody that's really looking for um to tackle their perfectionism, um my anxious, overachieving folks, stay with me. Um I love that. So if that applies to you at all, but I work with pretty much anyone um that just is ready to do the work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

So that's so good. And where can people find you and connect with you?

SPEAKER_02 58:12

Yeah, so um, we're right on Third Street in Palm, nearest Crossreads McDowell. So we're right in Central Phoenix. Um we do do virtual and in-person sessions. I'm also licensed here, Colorado, Minnesota, and Missouri. Good to know. Um, so if anybody's that in those places, I can service you virtually as well.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

Yeah. Love it.

SPEAKER_02 58:35

Embrazentherapy.org. We have social media, but I'm not active on it. I'm really trying, but it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 58:42

Yeah, as a business owner. It is. It is. Trust me, I know. And it's like my business one, I have not been on it like in two years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

And I feel like every time I go to any training session, they're like, you gotta post often. Yeah. And I was like, oh, don't have the time for that.

SPEAKER_03 58:55

Yeah. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:56

All right. So we're gonna close with our affirmation. I am allowed to feel and I'm allowed to be seen as well.

SPEAKER_01 59:04

I love that. Okay, if this episode resonated with you, send it to someone who needs this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

And make sure you tap in with Clark and support the work that she's doing over at Brazen Therapy.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

Yes. And um, you can find us at Thriving Loudly on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and all the streaming platforms. And yeah, we will see you guys in our next episode.