God Crush

What's your deal

• Lura Groen and Ariana Katz • Season 1 • Episode 1

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In our first full episode, we get into how deep we're crushing, and religious risk taking.

God Crush, a podcast about being in love with God, queer stuff, joy, justice, and chosen family, is coming soon! Hosted by Pastor Lura Groen and Rabbi Ariana Katz.

This podcast was recorded on Piscataway land, also known as Baltimore. We want to hear from you! You can email us at godcrushpod@gmail.com, and follow us on Instagram @godcrushpod.

Show artwork: Liora Ostroff, @lioraostroff
Music: "Testify" by Aves and Vincent Parker, @aves__music & @ultravincentr

Transcript of this episode can be found at: bit.ly/godcrushtranscripts

God Crush, a podcast about being in love with God, queer stuff, joy, justice, and chosen family, is coming soon! Hosted by Pastor Lura Groen (@lura.groen) and Rabbi Ariana Katz (@rabbiariana).

This podcast was recorded on Piscataway land, also known as Baltimore. We want to hear from you! You can email us at godcrushpod@gmail.com, and follow us on Instagram @godcrushpod. Leave us a voicemail at ‪(410) 929-5508‬.

Show artwork: Liora Ostroff, @lioraostroff
Music: "Testify" by Aves and Vincent Parker, @aves__music & @ultravincentr

Transcript of this episode can be found at: bit.ly/godcrushtranscripts

Lura

Hi and welcome to the first episode of God Crush. God Crush is a show about being in love with God, queer stuff, joy, justice, and chosen family. co hosts are me, Pastor Laura Gruen,

Ariana

And me, Rabbi Ariana Katz.

Lura

best friends, and clergy who live and serve in the greater Baltimore area.

Ariana

So first we want to just introduce ourselves and what our collective and respective deals are. So, Lura. What's your deal?

Lura

Yeah, am a Lutheran pastor and I love being a pastor so much. I serve a great little congregation, All Saints Lutheran Church in Bowie, Maryland. Love them. Shout out All Saints Lutheran Church.

Ariana

process

Lura

you'll hear me say she, her.

Ariana

to find ways statewide

Lura

am white. I have a chronic illness which disables me. um, talk shit on the internet, formerly on Twitter, now mostly on Blue Sky. I went to school in Philadelphia, very creatively named the Lutheran Theological Seminary at Philadelphia, also now part of United Lutheran Seminary.

Ariana

are

Lura

was extraordinary because I'm queer, which just means the Lutheran Church was not yet ready for queer clergy. And so a group of activists set up a alternative process by which we could be ordained by congregations who wanted queer clergy. eventually the Lutheran Church got on board and I am now rostered in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which is my denomination.

Ariana

The extraordinary, ordaining process is really amazing such that this is our second take because we just went on like a 20 minute, sidebar talking about ordination processes that maybe one day we will rerecord, but, um, just flagging how important and historic that story is, um, and that we should definitely come back to it.

Lura

Yeah. Invite one of the Lutheran queer elders to come talk to us about it. So, uh, shout out anyone from extraordinary Lutheran ministries wants to come on our podcast. Give us a call. We'll have you on. We'd love to have you. So Arianna, what's your deal?

Ariana

Ooh, my deal? Well I live in Baltimore as well. I'm a white, fat, queer femme. I'm a parent and a partner. I'm the founding rabbi of a synagogue called Hinenu, which Is now seven and a half years old.

Lura

Arianna, for a sabbatical,

Ariana

Hell yeah, brother.

Lura

A and A

Ariana

Next

Lura

give, give Rabbi Arianna a sabbatical.

Ariana

No, they're doing it. They're doing it. let's see what else is true. I did a podcast called Kaddish which is about death and identity, um, and was one season. I co wrote a book with my other clergy bestie, Rabbi Jessica Rosenberg, called for times such as these, A Radical's Guide to the Jewish Year. I helped make the Radical Jewish Calendar, and we're going into our 10th year of that project. I am an anti Zionist. I Care about abortion access. I'm currently abled. I'm Ashkenazi. These are some words I would use to describe myself.

Lura

Those are good words.

Ariana

Lira?

Lura

toddler I get to be auntie to.

Ariana

I do, Breh Hashem. And we have to be careful about how many cute stories about whom we share because having a rabbi as a mom is annoying enough when she tells stories about you from the bimah, from the pulpit, but let alone also your Pastor auntie doing the same exact thing, like both of us in stereo. Sorry, little dude.

Lura

are like, Oh, that toddler, let me come up. do want to tell a story about his good boundaries, though. I don't

Ariana

Great.

Lura

Um,

Ariana

Um,

Lura

which was a big church service that, uh, you and a bunch of other people came to, he was swarmed at one point by adults who knew who he was, who he didn't know. he said, he waved his little hand and he said, I need space with my daddy. I need space with my daddy. And I was like, good job. Thanks for telling us what you need and kind of had to do all the adults away. And then he said, no, Lois it. So then I had to come back and sit.

Ariana

Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um,

Lura

But I was so

Ariana

It's a bit, seriously,

Lura

kids need that.

Ariana

is a, if you're a

Lura

this

Ariana

PK,

Lura

you want.

Ariana

no, if you're a PK or an RK or an IK, if you're a clergy person's kid, yeah, it's a, it's a beautiful life. So a congregant said to me recently that it is, um, really special to have an entire congregation of people watch you grow up and like witness you in that. Um, and I really appreciated the positive turn, but it's also hard to be watched. Yeah. Um, yeah, we just spend a lot of time talking, so it's going to be interesting to translate this into podcast format. so Laura, uh, I'm curious. Why do a podcast,

Lura

do a podcast?

Ariana

why do a podcast

Lura

Well,

Ariana

another podcast of white people talking at each other.

Lura

well, we're not boys.

Ariana

We're not boys. Let the record show for better or worse. it's When Trump's America for better or worse, let the record show. We are not boys.

Lura

not boys. We're both queer fems and I don't know how often, people get to hear queer fem clergy talk to each other. Our friends seem to like it. So maybe some other people will too.

Ariana

Yeah, if you think we're shrill, just stop listening. I recently updated my website and on the contact form, you have to check a box that says you're not trying to send me hate mail. So

Lura

Wow.

Ariana

just don't send us email,

Lura

send

Ariana

just keep your showmiss to yourself.

Lura

I mean, I, I think there are so many podcasts out there, podcasts about deconstructing, or at least in the Christian world, there are, are there in the Jewish world, tons of podcasts about deconstructing

Ariana

Services.

Lura

and what we don't believe and like leaving conservative spaces. Is that something Jews do? Or is

Ariana

it's not in this, not in the same way, I think because there are. Because there is such a range of established denominations that have more, have a range of, uh, relationships to theology, practice and ideology and you're like theology, practice and, um, politics around identity. I don't think the constructing deconstructing framework works as well for Jews, unless there's like a relationship to Zionism and anti Zionism or, um, like. Traditional halakhic observance and not, I think it's a little different.

Lura

And you're not culturally dominant, which I think makes a difference.

Ariana

Yeah, despite what they may say, we are not culturally dominant. technology

Lura

we'll come back to that. So in the Christian world, there are tons of religious podcasts about deconstructing, particularly coming out of conservative evangelical background, which is reinforced by, um, Christian dominance in our culture. And a lot of people trying to unlearn that and try to figure it back, figure out like.

Ariana

spreadsheet

Lura

what I'm taught. I don't have to believe what I was taught. I don't have to believe what I grew up

Ariana

an X,

Lura

in the Christian world, there's very little, um,

Ariana

or 4,

Lura

I know of on the very progressive left about like, but so what do we believe? What, why are we in church? Let's reconstruct it. And I hear you have a whole denomination about reconstructing, but, um,

Ariana

recorded

Lura

with it. Uh, but we don't so much. And, um, like what, what really is it that we do believe? Why are we in love with God? What does God like? Who is God? What's our relationship with God? Like, um, and I love talking. I love hearing your perspective on that. I love it when you and I talk about what, so what do we actually believe? What do we love about what we're doing? So I hope that comes out in the podcast too.

Ariana

One of the things that I think is so powerful about the opportunity to read and Pull apart text is the practice of finding ourselves in it, even if we're not being described directly, and I'm thinking about how powerful liberation theology is black liberation theology, womenist theology, um, and queer midrash the, um, just the ways in which when you give a, uh, a teaching when you find or receive a teaching that, um, That tells a story about you and your people that at first glance isn't in there, or at first teaching from a dominant position, didn't have you in it, just how delicious and healing it feels and then beyond just the healing, then offers opportunity to like get to do deep spiritual work that, um, that can happen when we are not just represented by text, but then agitated and And transformed by it. Um,

Lura

hear you

Ariana

and, and,

Lura

talk about this in your sermon sometimes, um, you use the word that I can never pronounce, which is the second naivete, naiv

Ariana

yeah! and,

Lura

when we're presented at first with our religion as children and we hear the stories and it's like, yes, yes, yes. I believe this and I believe it literally or we encounter a metaphor and we're like, yes, this is the way the metaphors grew. And then as we grow and as we mature as humans, then we're like, wait, this metaphor isn't true in these other ways. And I'm not sure if I believe this literally, but then it

Ariana

can

Lura

can be another step in our growth to say, yes, there is, there is something deeply true about this metaphor, or there is something deeply true about what's being communicated by the story, even if.

Ariana

I

Lura

of it as a fact or a literal proof or something I must believe to be part of the community. There's still joy and beauty and you call it the yummy stuff sometimes. I love it when you call it the yummy.

Ariana

as I

Lura

I found that, found the yummy part. Um, and I love that.

Ariana

in the intro, uh, Yeah. Second naivete is a concept I learned from, um, Dr. Elsie Stern. Um, and the concept was sort of cemented by Paul Ricoeur. That feels as close to the experience of deconstructing that I have had. I was saying, like, I embodied on this project of observant Judaism in the way that I observe Judaism, um, but with a wink and, like a, you know, postmodern theology dissertation, not that I wrote one behind it, um, like I'm on board, but also like, did the exodus happen? I don't think so. You know?

Lura

Yeah, God is my shepherd, but like,

Ariana

you know, there

Lura

actually, shepherds eat all the male kids.

Ariana

people who had survival experiences

Lura

God is not like a shepherd that way, right? God doesn't kill all the male

Ariana

that's incredible

Lura

time,

Ariana

into the next question that we wanted to talk about. So, Eat Me God. Um, why name our podcast God on Crush? Do you have a crush on God? 11,

Lura

have such a crush on God. I have such a crush on God. I've been more saying the divine in my personal life because I don't, I don't know, God still comes with the baggage of old man in the sky, but, um, the divine, uh, it's my favorite thing in the work, like to be connected with the divine, to be connected with the divine and other people, to be connected with the divine in the world.

Ariana

we're

Lura

divine moving among them. To be alone in my own soul and feel the divine with me. That's my most important love relationship in my life and something I think about all the time. The source of so much joy. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed with God. I really am in the like, I don't know, read the mystics who are right in from their beds in the middle of the night about how they're in love with God. I'm, I'm secretly right there with them. What about you?

Ariana

That's a secret. going friends are tired of hearing me talk about her. Like, I definitely have a crush on God. God, Ari, I get it. Um, yeah, I, I think that the ways in which when you have a crush on someone, it just imbues your whole life with like an extra glimmer and like the opportunity to, to feel close to that person or to talk about that person. Um, just like fills you with pleasure. I think that. The experience, I'm so lucky that my job is my job. So I get to think and study and, and talk about God, but also just religious practice, which for Jews does not go hand in hand. Um, in fact, for a lot of Jews, the idea of a podcast about God is going to be like. That's nothing to do with me, um, but yeah, I just, I feel so lucky that there's someone's always going to be like, so what's up with God? And I'm going to have the opportunity to, to feel the joy and the intimacy and the awe and the confusion that comes along with, um, feeling close to God. And. And the opportunity to remember my connection to the divine to forget and then to remember, um, is, is a beautiful gift that I get by, conversations that I have by, um, the rhythm of my day, but also like my closest experience of the divine is through cosmic timing and sense of humor. So, like, this 1 story that I love to tell is, um, in rabbinical school. Rabbi Jacob Staub was talking about the medieval rabbis and their theologies and asked us, like, just like a baseline, like, what are your, like, how would you talk about your theologies? And I raised my hand to open my mouth to talk about God's sense of humor. And at the same time that I opened my mouth to Ross, our, um, groundskeeper facility manager started the lawnmower right underneath the window, like the gift of just cosmic timing throughout the day to call me into a sense of awe and connection. Um, those are just some of the ways that my crush manifests and, and it results in me feeling tied to the people who longed for God before me. And at the same time as me and God willing, we'll come after. There's like a, a link to other humans through a yearning for God that I feel.

Lura

I love also that you said confusion because I think that there's like

Ariana

is

Lura

risk in a crush and vulnerability and like

Ariana

heaartbeat

Lura

should be or doesn't be and

Ariana

an exact time. So

Lura

I feel all that in my relationship with God too. your,

Ariana

the

Lura

there, but also like, Oh my gosh, am I going to see her today? Like,

Ariana

on a miracle that is

Lura

um,

Ariana

my fast Will they like what I'm wearing? taking of having a crush on God, we both really connect over this core idea that risk taking, faith based risk taking, drawing courage from divinity, that's a, that's a part of our work. And curious how you take public risks, how you engage with risk, and then, like, what voice do you use, how honest are you about your, um, yourself when you're taking those risks?

Lura

Wow. So I hadn't made this connection, but when I was, younger, would rather die than admit to anyone that I had a crush. I did. It

Ariana

Thank

Lura

not a thing that was safe for me to talk about. So like in my life, what's riskier than having a crush is telling someone about your crush.

Ariana

you.

Lura

Um, So talking about God, um, talking honestly about how I feel about God feels super risky, honestly. Um, I mean, I've gotten

Ariana

«moView»

Lura

I, and I do it because I want other people to know that they're loved by God. Um. But it took a long time for me to get comfortable even talking about God at all. And it wasn't the public speaking part. I can stand up and run my mouth. Um, it was the, like, letting people authentically see my faith and see what God means to me.

Ariana

We are at the beginning of the day. The day is Like, isn't your whole thing loving God publicly?

Lura

Um.

Ariana

Like, more than finished. Like, isn't that your whole thing?

Lura

You know,

Ariana

The

Lura

I

Ariana

is end of

Lura

no, it's not. I mean,

Ariana

day.

Lura

a Midwestern Lutheran perspective. So first of all,

Ariana

is

Lura

I

Ariana

time to rewrite.

Lura

for progressive

Ariana

It

Lura

Um, there was a

Ariana

is time

Lura

we were really big on religious pluralism and we were really big on respecting our neighbor meant not

Ariana

the way we write.

Lura

so, um,

Ariana

It is time to rewrite today.

Lura

considered

Ariana

is time to rewrite

Lura

people about what we believed, which is clearly not what the religious right has done and meant that we rather ceded the public sphere to the

Ariana

tomorrow.

Lura

right. And people didn't know that Christianity could also be progressive. Um, so no,

Ariana

It is the end

Lura

that were like, evangelism just means

Ariana

of the

Lura

and, um, not telling

Ariana

The

Lura

actually feel about God, because that could be really disrespectful or, um, start

Ariana

day is completed. Thank

Lura

white niceness and white, Um, Western

Ariana

for

Lura

it definitely showed up in my, um, Lutheranism

Ariana

watching.

Lura

specifically, like it was a huge saying, um, preach the gospel always, only when necessary, use words. Um,

Ariana

And,

Lura

so, and I,

Ariana

And then

Lura

more in our actions than in our words, because people, We need

Ariana

you have to submit

Lura

but I

Ariana

your writs, your documents,

Lura

to use words

Ariana

and

Lura

church talking about God.

Ariana

uh, And now, what do you do different?

Lura

Um,

Ariana

there's

Lura

well,

Ariana

do a couple of

Lura

There, uh, I am

Ariana

those currently,

Lura

many great faith leaders in the Lutheran Church who have just started to say, like, no, we really need to talk publicly about our faith because, Um,

Ariana

these

Lura

a very, you know, alt right Christian

Ariana

Uh huh.

Lura

message. And, um, people don't know that loving God isn't, that,

Ariana

Um,

Lura

grant that we would do press

Ariana

they,

Lura

that we would go to queer press, we'd go to others and say like, look, this church is calling a queer pastor. Isn't that cool? And, um, bishop

Ariana

they, they're gonna, ας

Lura

to whom I was not responsible at that moment because

Ariana

کโง อองยุกา อัมบอส

Lura

he was really

Ariana

ณ

Lura

doing press around my call and not for the reasons that you would expect he thought that talking in the press about a loving God was

Ariana

ฮุกัน ณ

Lura

And the, I'm not sure that's

Ariana

หนี อผ฼ิ

Lura

it was attention seeking of me. That it was about bringing attention to myself as opposed to here's an opportunity to lift up the church and to

Ariana

Oh,

Lura

God. Um,

Ariana

MP3D. 18 clergy person who didn't get ordained by the church taking up space and offering a theology that might actually draw someone in instead of and pointing-19-20 phobic church. So like, no wonder-21 or whatever.

Lura

Well, I think

Ariana

-22

Lura

seeking, not self indulgent.

Ariana

Attention-23

Lura

word. But I also, like, um,

Ariana

-24-25-26-27-28-29

Lura

has mostly passed away. But when I was a kid, there was an intentional piety from certain clergy, Lutheran clergy, to

Ariana

-30

Lura

boring voice imaginable. And this, I'm talking

Ariana

-32

Lura

are confirming to that. because you didn't want to be too emotional reading the

Ariana

-41-42

Lura

it would draw attention to yourself instead of drawing attention to the words or to God. Now, um, and I, and I think again, that's kind of a reaction to manipulation that might sometimes happen in churches where the like the fog

Ariana

there is a link that can be used to

Lura

fancy lights and the chord changes in the band are all. And I

Ariana

connect

Lura

on contemporary praise and worship songs, but, um, in a certain way of doing church that's about emotional manipulation. So I think it was a reaction to that, but, um,

Ariana

Hmm.

Lura

legitimately clergy who were trained to be as emotionless and boring as possible so that their own self never showed through because, um, you might

Ariana

to a file, like a.txt,

Lura

own authentic self showed through, which obviously is, um, the opposite of what I think I'm trying to do. I think

Ariana

Great.

Lura

showing as much as we can of our own authentic self. We're showing people, um,

Ariana

or a

Lura

set free by God to

Ariana

.error

Lura

Um, but that is in every way the opposite of how generations before me were trained. And, uh, there are still some, some people alive who,

Ariana

file.

Lura

of clergy who are

Ariana

So it's

Lura

because anytime we are our authentic self, it's a risk, but because they have literally been taught that's being a bad pastor. Being a good pastor is setting your entire self aside for the sake of serving your congregation.

Ariana

Return to the starting position. what the, like, what is, you know, not a revolutionary idea. It's also establishing maleness and 11. from which any deviation is, the starting position. um, because if you're, right, if you're bringing any, um, anything that's outside of that boundary, it's attention seeking, but it's pretty comfortable for the, the people for whom that robe fits, and Um, of, um, its design, condemning of anyone else that doesn't fit the mold and requiring us to, to wear a big suit to, to seem like a clergy person.

Lura

I think, okay, so I think all of this is true

Ariana

uh,

Lura

and is the reason that I'm rejecting all of it and I want to say that from within the Lutheran

Ariana

Um,

Lura

think there is also a good place where it comes from and I think at least a faithful place or a well intentioned place. I don't think it's only that. Now, I think it's only possible when, um, clergy can conform to a certain norm, but the idea that, um, we're being careful about not emotionally manipulating people, we're being careful about not having, um, a charisma, not basing leadership on it. a charismatic, um, leader who can manipulate people again and more being intentional about God being the center and not ourselves being the center. Um,

Ariana

That's Um, seems Uh,

Lura

I don't think it works, obviously, but, um, I think there are actually some well intentioned and faithful places that that come

Ariana

Um, uh, dunk on a church, and you have to pull me back so Um, uh,

Lura

that I do not hold back on dunking on the Christian tradition. I'm just saying, like, I, I think there are, in this

Ariana

Thank

Lura

case, people who thought

Ariana

you for watching.

Lura

the right thing.

Ariana

The as a charismatic religious leader who uses tradition to manipulate people. thing we're that's going to start doing with

Lura

going to, you are clearly not emotionally manipulative. So

Ariana

I mean, listen, but, but it's like aware the, what I can, the, the benefit of, of this logic is understanding that clergy and people who hold religious leadership wield so much power because any of these is but also the emotion, right? Like Yeah. What is the um, learned We're liturgical field from Elliot Botsetek, who's a going to start with anti Zionist poet, um, in Philadelphia, a ritualist, and, um, and she talks about, it's not just about the words, but it's how it's delivered and the energy in the some little the bells, that it's so much beyond the intellectual that sets the meaning. And, and I really appreciate this, that it's, it's an analysis of power, of, yeah. you talk seriously over the right music in the background, whoo,

Lura

Hello.

Ariana

in, um, in our, our holding of space. We know that it's potent, yeah, making sure we're doing it. Responsibly. I saw this meme that was like, um, someone who is, uh, deconstructing Christian saying like, maybe I wasn't having a, uh, a breakthrough with the divine. Maybe it was just the key change

Lura

Yeah,

Ariana

the worship music,

Lura

yeah.

Ariana

That like, that can still be a meaningful experience. But yeah, we got to wield it careful. Yeah.

Lura

the tricky thing is that anything is human that is

Ariana

about

Lura

the divine can be manipulated, right?

Ariana

what is the Native American exhibit.

Lura

God can be misused, and that absolutely includes, um, Midwestern Scandinavian piety about not showing emotion and being it. Uh,

Ariana

represents.

Lura

only also can be misused, right? Then I can just use so many and trust me, I know

Ariana

going to start with the exhibit

Lura

I can

Ariana

itself.

Lura

words and use my verbal prowess to make someone else feel small and make someone else feel like they can't, um,

Ariana

First off,

Lura

to

Ariana

what is the

Lura

What?

Ariana

exhibit?

Lura

How do you think I got a big following online? I took down some trolls and I can, you know, like, I, Uh

Ariana

The the the internet.

Lura

huh. I'm mostly

Ariana

I was there.

Lura

this.

Ariana

agenda No no no. that uh,

Lura

So, okay, wait, we're way off topic, though, I think, on risk taking, aren't we? Or not? Is this still part

Ariana

Well, no, I mean, I, need to set in, uh, that, um, self modulation, like, minimizing the self to make room for the personal experience in the ways that that's normative and punitive or in the ways that that's, like, really well intentioned and good technology. All of that being the. The world in which you came into and raised it and then came into in leadership to then talk about how you're just like, horny for God, we can edit that out. But

Lura

can stay horny for God.

Ariana

Rachel, like, to, to then bring into that world that you are so passionate. And have such a personal relationship with the divine, like that is a risk. I think when you first started answering that way, I was like, I thought you're going to talk about gay stuff, but it's, it's really illuminating for me that when you think about risk taking, it's about putting out a personal theology. That, carries so much transgression.

Lura

I grew up in an environment that made fun of,

Ariana

has changed

Lura

and

Ariana

of learning.

Lura

as being Jesus is my boyfriend songs. And I'm like, wait, but what if

Ariana

For a brief moment of as new as

Lura

a

Ariana

today talk about developing skills or techniques or technologies, skills can be

Lura

when I was in seminary about, um, black gospel and

Ariana

6,

Lura

which is much more emotionally subjective, um, as that being like, well, that's, that

Ariana

7,

Lura

about our own subjective experience, not about God. And so there, and, and therefore is

Ariana

10,

Lura

sacred than

Ariana

11, 12,

Lura

which were, singing about

Ariana

13,

Lura

more than about

Ariana

14, 15,

Lura

So there was such a deep distrust of an emotional reaction to God. in my Lutheran upbringing that for me to say, Oh, I feel passionately about Jesus. There's a little like, Oh, you must, you must be one

Ariana

uh,

Lura

scary Christians. And, um,

Ariana

Um,

Lura

queerness,

Ariana

does get a little bit hard sometimes.

Lura

queer sexuality, but queer community, queer

Ariana

We will be back in a few minutes.

Lura

camp, queer celebration,

Ariana

for joining us. this video. If you did, please click the

Lura

of my heart. And I do feel

Ariana

like button. And

Lura

in which my tradition, well, meaning as it

Ariana

please subscribe

Lura

is also maybe neurodiversity for me that like I feel things deeply and Neurotypicals are

Ariana

to our channel. Thank Um, Um, Yeah.

Lura

um,

Ariana

thi... in

Lura

predominantly white church. Risk taking is, um, preaching sermons that challenge people. Risk taking is standing up to the bully in the congregation. Risk taking is so

Ariana

Okay.

Lura

the way I carry

Ariana

there might,

Lura

Um, so

Ariana

in object...

Lura

which ones I keep private. Um, yeah.

Ariana

There might be a

Lura

belief, there are things about myself that I keep private that I don't throw all over the internet. Um,

Ariana

script.

Lura

but,

Ariana

But,

Lura

risk for me is to show the passion that I really do have for God.

Ariana

um, you can create one.

Lura

What about you?

Ariana

Wow.

Lura

taking for you in your life of faith?

Ariana

Mm-hmm. But, When I was doing clinical pastoral education.

Lura

Mm

Ariana

um, it um, how one of the ways CPE is used is to teach clergy how to be a pastoral presence. Um, takes a custom script. So, you put it in to, like, and I was doing CPE at Hebrew Senior Life in, um, Boston, outside of Boston. I would have this experience where I would walk into a patient's room. I would have no idea what the fuck was going to happen. I was just like, I'm going to open my pie hole and they're going to open their pie hole. And like, I would just like, pray. I was just, please God, let me get out of the way

Lura

hmm. Mm

Ariana

so that what. Needs to move through me from you gets there

Lura

hmm.

Ariana

and two object, the words my tongue can form

Lura

hmm.

Ariana

be in service of that connection between me and this this patient and between you and this patient and think about like Tarzan swinging where you like leap off of one thing and you're not sure what you're gonna catch or any of my my Congregants listening to this, like, every pastoral interaction feels this way, even if I know what's on the agenda, even if we've worked together for years, even if I know intimately from my own experience about the topic, I'm just like, all right, God, like, what you're going to do with this, like, please, and I don't really experience Jews talking about a personal interaction with God in that way as openly as I think I hear, um, Other faiths, um, especially Christians talk about that and it's just so, it's so dear to me in my, my everyday work and so like the risk taking of just like showing up in front of another person and not knowing what the hell is going to happen, but trusting that when two people sit and study Torah, the divine presence rests in them. So something will come out of this, even if it's sort of a flop convo, there will be mutual respect and care and, um, usually something is transformed. I think that is the,

Lura

Yeah.

Ariana

that risk comes in my, my life of the, like, the risk of getting out of the way. making room for what's going to happen and the brilliance of other people, right? Like, not being such a, uh, control freak, bossy femme, like, holder of the container, the ability to do the steering,

Lura

hmm.

Ariana

to actually, like, sit down and be like, The brilliance of the people around me are going to steer me where I need to go. I think I, I'm just really feeling these days the like, to move with a congregation that is primarily queer and trans Jews and the people who love us and want to be with us. I'm feeling a lot of pressure around leadership about like, how do I like open my pie hole and hopefully something useful comes out.

Lura

Mm hmm.

Ariana

Like, I, I deep to my core don't think that I have all the answers, but I, I feel a lot of pressure for that. And so the, the risk taking in the faith of not participating in that story, um, be like, yeah, that would be nice. Where's that guy?

Lura

hmm.

Ariana

I don't really know that, um, is a, is a big risk to not have the answer. I just took a long way to get to object, answer. And that feels like a risk.

Lura

hmm. Yeah. a terrifying

Ariana

and

Lura

can I reflect

Ariana

then

Lura

I just heard?

Ariana

Yeah, I have no idea you so that would be really helpful.

Lura

Well, I don't know if I got summarizing because I wasn't

Ariana

quit.

Lura

mode. Let's see what here. Here's one thing. start with the interesting thing first. You can edit this out if you don't like it. you were a,

Ariana

Nouns that, uh, they are a

Lura

and to be

Ariana

part of the

Lura

like that.

Ariana

Geographic System, a part of the Geographic System.

Lura

that you said it right after you were like, Oh, that's just white supremacy to make yourself

Ariana

great.

Lura

and to not draw attention to yourself. And to like,

Ariana

Right.

Lura

about my colleagues, not being emotional and not drawing attention to themselves, like. You

Ariana

Yeah. Geographic System.

Lura

also

Ariana

that, just uh, that those, that those things,

Lura

way how

Ariana

that they are

Lura

people too.

Ariana

a part of the Geographic System,

Lura

that I think that's

Ariana

talking about the meanings,

Lura

to do and they're not being emotional I don't know to

Ariana

the trajectory,

Lura

make yourself smaller

Ariana

religionists. or that. Thank you for defending the meaning of

Lura

about defending

Ariana

the terms and conditions,

Lura

because heaven knows I don't feel like

Ariana

Um, um.

Lura

but I mean maybe this is what I mean that there's a constant balance between um Shining as brightly as possible

Ariana

Um,

Lura

to shine really brightly, that it's

Ariana

um. Um,

Lura

right, right? And it's

Ariana

um.

Lura

to, um, be yourself as completely and totally as you can while still being yourself. You're welcome. Making room for other people to be themselves as totally and fully as they can, and I see you doing that, I see you doing it so beautifully with your congregation, and in your life, and in your family, and with your kid, and, um, there, there is also a danger about, that clergy could have about Being too much and you're like you're so good at that balance. And one of the reasons I think you're good at that balance is when you were talking about Never knowing what's gonna happen in your pastoral conversations, even with the ones, you know, very well and that like leap into faith It's because you're not controlling them. It's because you are Letting them be their deepest fullest truest selves and letting them Come and bring as much of the Torah as you do, letting them bring as much of, I would say, image of the divine as you do, as much of the, um, and the personhood and the humanity. And like the way that you do that is such a beautiful gift. I watch you do it. Like here I am now, who, who are you and how does, God show up in between

Ariana

This

Lura

way.

Ariana

the um, uh, You know, if you've had a negative pastoral experience with me, please call in to our voicemail line 240 This is the um, uh, Um, Uh, transcript.

Lura

If you

Ariana

And we will

Lura

not call that line. Just kidding. You can, you can totally call in

Ariana

you how do you hold a container? How do you bring your uniqueness to make room for other people's uniqueness? Like, I know I suck a lot of oxygen out of the room

Lura

you

Ariana

and like, I have like a shtick. I think that's what I mean. I know I have a shtick and my hope is that the shtick makes room for other people because everyone is so weird. whether or not people know it.

Lura

Oh

Ariana

Um, so how do you,

Lura

the weirdness of humanity. Please be weirder folks. Please be weirder. I

Ariana

like, humans are my favorite species. They're so strange.

Lura

are

Ariana

Yeah, I just, yeah, this piece of like, how do you, you honor who you are, your gifts in service of making room for other people and depending on your, um, your identities, your ability, your racial identities, um, your gender, it will be perceived as taking up more or less room than is appropriate for you.

Lura

Look, we're

Ariana

so yeah, being a,

Lura

thank

Ariana

I'm like you. talk to you later. Uh, bye-bye. Bye-bye. I'm a fat Jewish femme at the front of the room. I'm wearing a clown dress right now. Like the. ways in which I have moved into being really femme, I, last Shabbos, um, there's a moment where when you're blessing the challah you take the cover off, um, you like cover it before you bless it, um, When you take it off, everyone always goes, there's like a collective gasp. And that's like in every community I've ever been in.

Lura

hmm.

Ariana

And I said something from the front of the room of like taking the cover off the challah and not gasping is like trying to put on mascara and not opening your mouth. And like, femme experience, uh, and just like with authority, um, about our faith and our religion and our politics, um, it's definitely a thing I've had to grow into learn that like the self censoring feeling is not necessarily my instinct saying, okay, cats make room for someone else, but, um, the, the fact that there haven't been women and non binary, um, rabbis, Within, uh, you know, within 50 years. So.

Lura

Yeah. In your tradition, were the first rabbis, fem, female rabbis pressured to be super matronly?

Ariana

Transcripts provided by Transcription Outsourcing, LLC. Oh, I know this is a whole piece of your, um, your experience of, of women pastors. I don't know if I have that same

Lura

Interesting.

Ariana

also because there were, um, their rabbi, uh, a few rabbis in the, like in the pre 20th century.

Lura

huh.

Ariana

Um, I don't think I can track the same through line.

Lura

would love, um, probably a later episode to hear more about how the first female rabbis negotiated gender in the institutions. That would be an interesting topic. At least to me, I would love to hear it. Um,

Ariana

I would love that too.

Lura

So you said a big risk taking is the not knowing. And you were talking about, um, in your relationship with, um, people you serve in a hospital room or a pastoral care conversation with a congregant. And just like when you let

Ariana

I can

Lura

self,

Ariana

use your

Lura

and be different, I put those words in your mouth, but you know, like when

Ariana

minus and you

Lura

you don't know where the conversation is going to go. It's, it's a. big unknowing and that

Ariana

my plus.

Lura

and how that's, um, hard in leadership to be like, okay, we have to go direction. Are we going to find it? Or is, is it going to, is the answer going to show up between us? Um,

Ariana

So I'll just say

Lura

uh, risk taking and ministry

Ariana

that you can use a one,

Lura

thoughts?

Ariana

a three, and a no, I know something to be true that the rest of my people not write. So like, it's minus space for the, the beauty that emerges from each of us. And then also the moral clarity around the occupation and around the ongoing, you can use a one. uh, I'm the genocide in Gaza, the occupation of Palestine not sure it's that I have that, um, the project of the modern state of Israel blasphemes Torah

Lura

Wow.

Ariana

and that, that clarity, I mean, made my job up

Lura

Mm

Ariana

and I have a congregation of people who are Non Zionist, anti Zionist, liberal Zionist, like there is a range, but, um, but like I made up my job and then our congregation decided to have a statement that says that we're in solidarity with the Palestinian people, but that is. of a minority in the Jewish world, and I have

Lura

Mm

Ariana

rabbinic colleagues who have not been able to find work, um, or who have been fired, um, especially in the last 500 days because of calling out even in the most part of like the most milquetoast, um, that this, um, this extermination of the Palestinian people, even in the last 500 days, not even looking over 76 years, is, um, is morally reprehensible. And that's a, so I feel grateful to have a congregation at my back that will agitate me further to the left, that will call me in closer to respectful disagreement. Um, but the, the risk.

Lura

a congregation, you built a congregation that does that. You fucking did that,

Ariana

Yeah, I built it along with the founders. Yeah. I want to take up the right amount of space for being the founding rabbi, but also you can't found a congregation without people who are in it. that by using a transcript,

Lura

to have moral clarity, especially when it's moral clarity, which is a

Ariana

uh,

Lura

in

Ariana

uh,

Lura

tradition, in your

Ariana

uh,

Lura

History and your people and in

Ariana

uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, I'm sure that this I think that there is, people who disagree with us around gender diversity or sexuality or Zionism or anti racism or whatever the values that we understand so deeply, um, are offended by our declarations of truth. Despite the fact that they would, they're doing the same, right? Like we're accused of oversimplifying or not having enough compassion for a different perspective or, or, or, and I think the risk of like owning what we don't know and owning what we know, um, are two different kinds of risk.

Lura

yeah, those are, I mean, I want to both say in the most general way possible owning what we know and owning what we don't know are both huge risks and that there is one

Ariana

The

Lura

huge risk that you take in that one particular thing that you know,

Ariana

first word

Lura

be lost that you

Ariana

Yeah. Thank transcript. Yeah. No, I, I know that the, um, the project of founding modern nation state, um, using Jewish wisdom, Was a failure.

Lura

Wow. Okay. So

Ariana

So anyway, we'll Transcript is a

Lura

in this

Ariana

word that is used to describe a product or a feature. what ways has

Lura

and

Ariana

podcast risked it?

Lura

here? Yeah.

Ariana

a goofy silly guy from the Beamer, from the pulpit, um, I still, I feel like I understand how to operate that machine. Like I know what I can really thoughtfully sort of, um, present an idea and it sort of lives in the ephemerality of the devar Torah, that if it's not recorded or written down and distributed, it just lives there. And I think this is a kind of claiming space and authority of, it can be replayed copied from a transcript, and also just claiming that we have something important to say. What about you? Oh

Lura

my goodness. So the, um,

Ariana

a word that

Lura

thing. I have to say, cause you're, um,

Ariana

to

Lura

but mine do now, and that was

Ariana

my god.

Lura

and it was a terror to realize that not

Ariana

describe a product or

Lura

given, or the ones that I

Ariana

Oh,

Lura

but just like every

Ariana

a feature. 5.

Lura

was going to live on YouTube. That was terror for me in the beginning, like, cause usually my seminary teachers or my colleagues or people who don't go to church with me or my friends, like, they

Ariana

mm hmm.

Lura

my sermon unless it was a super special occasion. And

Ariana

Great. And you're like, blah, blah, blah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm 6. Yeah. Wow.

Lura

for me happened. And so now, blah, blah, blah, I'm running my mouth. Blah,

Ariana

9.

Lura

blah.

Ariana

uh,

Lura

before how like I am so certain that you have something to say to the world. I am so certain that you need a podcast and I am so certain that you have a teaching to put out there, but like me, Okay. If you say so. Um, so like, even while I say I'm used to my words living on YouTube now, there, there is kind of, um,

Ariana

uh, Dersion a well. Uh,

Lura

no, I have something to say

Ariana

you can't ever forget to like the video, even

Lura

podcast. Um,

Ariana

if you didn't mean to.

Lura

that's

Ariana

the thing, I'll

Lura

I don't know. I'm going to say things on here that I say semi

Ariana

say. What do I mean, even if you didn't mean to? Cause I can't, even if you didn't mean to. It's a celebration of the

Lura

this, um,

Ariana

You know what I mean? It's an occasion to

Lura

about that and some sort of like foundational

Ariana

and an opportunity to

Lura

that point us towards sexual ethics is coming on this season. And

Ariana

try and understand.

Lura

different than the teaching of my church. And, um, I don't think that's going

Ariana

Even though

Lura

surprise to anyone who looks at my social media or a surprise hopefully to my

Ariana

it's a difficult time

Lura

I'm getting a new bishop in June and no idea who it is. That's terrifying. Um, but I am not.

Ariana

and a strange environment to

Lura

ethics to what is expected of me by my denomination. And so that is, now,

Ariana

live in,

Lura

no, you will get no personal examples. I am not telling you any, right? But um, like

Ariana

I'm, I'm

Lura

I'm not talking about what, what my own preferences are, what my own personal, like not even my practice, but my own, like that, that feels like it would be inappropriate to share in a world where congregants will listen. Right. But, um, but my ethics, so that. And, and my politics to

Ariana

That's.

Lura

actually to a

Ariana

Check your heart

Lura

than, um, other

Ariana

rate,

Lura

so saying that publicly is a risk, probably not a

Ariana

chest,

Lura

one, but a risk that I'm taking.

Ariana

and your

Lura

just to claim like, I know some, there's a point, there's a point to what we're saying is that's terrifying.

Ariana

The hope is that this, um, this show can be a place where we're in conversation with the people who are breathe out. our work is relational, right? Like, we're giving sermons. Two people were learning Torah from people. It is interactive and dynamic. And this is one directional. Um, so it's just us egging each other on. Um, Breathe and so I hope that people breathe out. Breathe in, respond, offer ideas. I'd love to do interviews throughout the course of,

Lura

Yeah.

Ariana

of the show and, and for it to be interactive because I think the, um, yeah, I, I just, I think that it would be all the richer for it to get to me in conversation. breathe out.

Lura

Yeah. I think we need that. I need that. I, when I preach, I can see most people's faces. Um, and

Ariana

in,

Lura

people's faces, to see how they're reacting, to feel, what did you talk about the, the field of the liturgy?

Ariana

breathe out.

Lura

the phrase you used?

Ariana

Liturgical field. Hi,

Lura

I mean, this isn't liturgy, but, uh, maybe it's Torah. So to say, what is,

Ariana

my name is Dan and

Lura

what did we say wrong? What did people really resonate with? What do people are like, oh, well, that's different than my experience. Um, are the

Ariana

I'm

Lura

for people to, I

Ariana

I hope so. the director for

Lura

We'll be on social, so yes. And maybe we should say the email and phone number again then. Mm

Ariana

on audio quality, um, people you'd love to hear on the show, and you can also call in and leave us a message that we might be able to play. for joining us on the data that we have, This podcast was recorded on Piscataway Land, also known as Baltimore. We want to hear your thoughts and ideas and prayer requests and feedback. You can leave us a voice message at 2 4 0 8 4 7 4 1 0 8. email us at godcrushpod at gmail. com and follow us for now on Instagram at godcrushpod.

Lura

I'm Laura.

Ariana

I'm Ariana.

Lura

I saw God

Ariana

by Transcription Outsourcing, LLC.

Lura

the other day.

Ariana

band.

Lura

Yeah, she is so talented. She really is.

Ariana

And this is We did not start a podcast just so we could say things to suck up to our congregational leadership

Lura

But you know, it doesn't hurt.

Ariana

for job security. No, it doesn't hurt.