The Sound of Healing
The Sound of Healing explores the stories behind a song that inspires, heals, and carries beautiful messaging. Join host Jason Amoroso as he interviews artists about the lyrics, deeper meaning behind the song, the creative process, and the musician's personal journey that shaped the work.
These songs are also featured in Revelation Breathwork classes, where music and breath combine to create transformative, somatic experiences. Discover how you can breathe to these powerful tracks in our online breathwork healing community at revelationbreathwork.com.
The Sound of Healing
'Confess' by Whatever Mike
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In this episode of The Sound of Healing, Jason Amoroso sits down with recording artist, songwriter, spiritual practitioner, Whatever Mike to explore their powerful song, “Confess,” from the EP Everything to Gain.
🎵 Listen to “Confess” on Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/track/58HTUI5Prg4Y40k8IS4ltH?si=bd464ec896c149c5
“Confess” is an invitation to take responsibility for the ways we cause harm without abandoning grace, compassion, or our own fundamental goodness.
Whatever Mike shares how the song emerged from years of spiritual study and honest self-examination. Together, Whatever Mike and Jason explore the difference between accountability and shame, why self-honesty may be one of the greatest acts of self-love, and how acknowledging that we are part of the problem allows us to become part of the solution.
Their conversation moves through queer spirituality, gender fluidity, identity, and the freedom of “becoming nobody.” They explore what it means to hold the beauty and suffering of the world at the same time -and how we can remain rooted in love when anger, judgment, and division feel easier.
This is a deeply honest and compassionate conversation about accountability, forgiveness, identity, grief, transformation, and the courage to admit that we are flawed while remembering that we are still worthy of grace.
CONNECT WITH WHATEVER MIKE
🌐 Website:
https://whatevermike.com/
📸 Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/whatevermike_/
▶️ YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@whatevermike
🎵 Listen to “Confess”:
https://open.spotify.com/track/58HTUI5Prg4Y40k8IS4ltH?si=bd464ec896c149c5
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In this conversation, Mike and Jason explore how breath, music, self-honesty, and presence can reconnect us with what is alive and true within us.
If you’re curious to experience Revelation Breathwork for yourself, we’d love to have you join us.
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ABOUT THE SOUND OF HEALING
The Sound of Healing is a podcast exploring the music that moves us, heals us, and reminds us who we are. In each episode, Jason Amoroso sits down with the artists behind the song for conversations about creativity, healing, spirituality, and the human experience.
Learn more about the healing power of Revelation Breathwork:
https://www.revelationbreathwork.com/
Follow us on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/revelationbreathwork/
Email us:
hello@revelationbreathwork.com
⚠️ This episode contains explicit language.
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Email us at hello@revelationbreathwork.com
Welcome And Guest Introduction
SPEAKER_03Let's go. Welcome back to another episode of The Sound of Healing. Today, our special guest is Whatever Mike. Whatever Mike, welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me, Jason. I'm so excited to be here and uh great to connect with you and excited to get to chat.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, this is this is a vision, a dream come true. Because the first time I heard Confess, I said we got to have whatever Mike on the podcast and listen to the song and break it down and learn more about the song and you. And so, you know, we in this podcast, we feature songs that we breathe to in our online revelation and in-person Revelation Breathwork classes that are powerful. And this song, at least for me and our community, just hits right to the core. So yeah, we'll start by reading a little bit about you. I'll read your bio, which you share with me, thank you. And uh and then we'll dive in. How's that sound?
SPEAKER_01Sounds great.
SPEAKER_03Let's do it. Whatever Mike is a New Jersey-raised LA-based recording artist, singer, songwriter, performer, spiritual practitioner, and song leader. Their unique sound, which they call Hope Pop, has earned them 25 million streams across platforms and appearances at festivals such as Lollapalooza, Governor's Ball, and Bonnaroo. Mike has toured nationally and internationally, most recently with acclaimed trans artist and activist Alokvide Menon, thank you. Their sound blends elements of RB, soul, pop, and folk with introspective songwriting that explores queer consciousness, devotional practice, and mysticism. Their new EP, which is extraordinary, Everything to Gain is a meditation on healing, devotion and self-discovery, an exploration of queer spirituality through sound. With buttery layered vocals and hypnotic production, the project holds space for nuance, paradox, and the big questions of life, embracing both light and shadow, movement and stillness. Quote, I pray for the victims and pray for the shooter, end quote, a lyric that cuts to the core of the EP's heart, reflects its willingness to hold complexity and compassion at once. These songs don't seek easy answers, instead, they invite you to find peace in the unknown. And you can follow whatever Mike on all streaming and social media platforms, and we'll pop those into the chat notes, the podcast notes below.
Listening To Confess Together
SPEAKER_03Well, we like to start out by listening to the song so we get into the energy of it, and then we'll uh dive in.
SPEAKER_00Holy God, I am flawed, been a fraud, broken laws. I wanna confess, confess. I caused pain, made false claims, spoke your name in vain, and I want to be honest, honest. And what's craziest of all? I didn't mean to hate a cause. Heartache, I was doing my best. But I was blind, lost the light, only I can make that bright. I wanna confess, confess Who am I without shame? I felt stuck and so I blame everyone I know for my pain. Guess that's how we were taught. Don't give no one a shot. Keep judging everything. This culture's got us caught in the same shit, same fight, blocked from the same light, there's one crime, division, where vision goes to die. I'ma live, I'm a distress, I'ma live, cause I'm a free When I'm free, it's a me, I can see that I'm free. I know that I am stage.
SPEAKER_01Lord, make me an instrument of your peace. Where there is hatred, let me so love. Where there is injury, pardon, where there is doubt, faith, where there is despair, hope, where there is darkness, light, where there is sadness, joy. O divine master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love. For it is in giving that we receive, in pardoning that we are pardoned, and in dying that we are born to eternal life.
SPEAKER_03That's fucking awesome. Yes. The best.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Thank you so much. So true. So true.
SPEAKER_01So true.
SPEAKER_03Share
Why Confession Became The Song
SPEAKER_03with us uh what are the origins of confess? Like, where were you in your life when you wrote it? How did it come about? All the deets.
SPEAKER_01So I think confess is a culmination of a number of years of spiritual study and just like honest investigation of myself and the ways that I am part of a culture that is obsessed with uh finger pointing, and I replicate that culture in me. I replicate this culture of like looking for the bad guys and the blame game, and you're you did this thing to me, and that's fucked up, and you're bad, and I'm not, and and and and this kind of separation game. And I think that through a variety of personal interactions and spiritual explorations and political awakenings and psychological kind of growth, I kind of came to this big realization that like I have to be able to name the ways that I'm part of the problem. And when I say the problem, you know, there was like no one specific thing that I did that I'm confessing in that song. It's more of a larger recognition, and there are specific things, and there are specific ways that I've hurt specific people that frankly don't feel as relevant to like the podcast or talking about the song. It's more about this this larger understanding that like I am capable of harm and I am causing harm just by being myself, by being in the body I'm in, by living in the society that I live in, by by by by by posting this clip on Instagram. I'm part of a system that is contributing to you know uh horrendous wealth inequality, uh, you know, you know, fueling racism, homophobia, transphobia, uh American nationalism. I mean, it's like there's no way for us to not be part of the system. And so as a cell of the system, of the organism, I have to be able to name that I'm part of the problem. Now, the the the the piece of this that's exciting and the other side of the coin here is I am also part of the solution. And the solution needs me. And the only way I can be part of the solution is by being honest with myself about the ways that I'm part of the problem. And I think for a really long time I was someone who was very resistant to looking at the ways that I was part of the problem, to looking at the ways that I was causing harm, because I'm a good person, you know, and I am a good person. And I also think that this idea of good people, bad people is just boring and it's dishonest, and it doesn't hold the nuance and the complexity of the fact that all of us are good and bad together, and in fact, to be a human being is to fall short from our highest good. To be a human being is in Buddhism, they would say is to be is to have ignorance, right? And to suffer from greed and desire, and I don't remember all the all the list of of of of the of of those um of those different ways that ignorance shows up. Or in the Christian context, they would say, 'cause it's my sin, right? Whatever way you want to talk about it, the point is all of us are not who we say we want to be. There is a way that all of us are still closing the gap between who we want to be and who we are. And if that gap was fully closed, we wouldn't be humans. We would literally not be human beings. We would be we would be beings existing on another realm. We came here to have this human experience, to have the practice and the opportunity and the curriculum to learn how to close that gap. And for me, a big piece of closing that gap is really being honest about the ways that I have I have to start with how can I fix a wound that I won't even recognize? I'm gushing out blood and I'm acting like everything is fine. Well, if I'm gonna start putting a band-aid or do surgery, I have to be honest about the fact that I'm bleeding in the first place. Um and then, you know, it's been interesting. This song has gotten because of the word confess, I think people you know, I talk about God and I talk about confession and people assume I'm Christian. And I'm not Christian. I also am a follower of Jesus. Like I love Jesus. I love the story of Jesus, I love the teachings of Jesus, but I don't identify as a Christian, you know. I don't I don't feel the need to do that. I don't, I don't, I don't identify as a Christian. But actually the the idea of confession and uh and repentance and atonement is is is there in in so many traditions. In Buddhism, there's also also an idea of confessing, and if we want to get, if we want to, you know, release that energy and release those stories from our mind. Because in the Buddhist idea, it's like, oh, my negative, it's all about the thoughts. So my negative thinking is my sin, right? Here I am thinking I'm not enough. Here I am thinking I'm better than somebody, here I am having whatever negative thought I'm having. That is that is that is falling from my highest self. That's the fall from grace. Or in Judaism, you know, we just celebrated I'm Jewish and we just celebrated the new year, and 10 days into the new year, we have Yom Kippur, and it's the day of atonement. And it's about taking responsibility and accountability for our the things we've done wrong. And so it's been interesting watching the song be received online where I think a lot of yeah, people just assume that I'm Christians, Christian, and I think a lot of some Christians are then offended, more conservative Christians see me, but then I'm like in address, and I'm a visibly gender non-conforming person. And so there have been people who think that I'm there have been people who think that I'm singing about confessing my sin of being queer, which is hilarious. And then there are like progressive Christians who are like, oh, this is so dope. Like this person is visibly queer and singing about confession. And then there are queers who get it, and then there are queers who are like, Why is this person singing about God? I'm queer and I'm triggered and I have religious trauma and I'm confused. So the song has hit in a lot of different ways for different people, and that's been challenging because, of course, the capitalist in me wants it to blow up, wants as many people as possible to be into it. But the truth seeker in me is like, okay, well, the song is gonna hit people the way it's gonna hit people. And all I can do, you know, my job is just to tell my truth, which is what I've done here, and then, you know, let them with ears hear it, you know, and just trusting that those people who are meant to hear it and feel it and understand it will. And maybe others won't.
SPEAKER_03That's amazing. And I I would add uh to what you just shared, like if it's triggering, that's informative for those individuals as well. Right. If they're willing to look at, hey, what what's going on here for me that this is what's upsetting me here that is touching something inside of me. And let me look at that. And that's always that's the responsibility work that you're talking about. Is am I even aware to see that, to take that responsibility, to feel that? So so okay, you said a lot of things that like. Keep doing that, keep talking, say all the things. Uh we're here to hear you. We're not here to hear me. Um and you talk about identity and the different identities of of people that maybe identify in certain religious groups or not. And then you kind of um and and I apologize if I'm using the wrong words or terminology, like transcend the identity box, and yet you also identify like I am Jewish. So I'm curious, like, w t say more about identity and what your journey's been and what maybe what it's where you kind of feel like it's going as well.
Identity Without Getting Stuck
SPEAKER_01Totally.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think that you know, my one of my teachers is Ram Das, and he talks about becoming nobody and you know, really letting go of all the attachment to all the identities. And so as I'm on my journey, I I feel like the the pie in the sky direction, spiritually speaking, that I'm going for over my lifetime and over lifetimes is how do I release myself? How do how does my soul learn to release itself from all identity? Now, here's the non-binary, here's the non-dualist of it all. I am also a human being on earth in a very specific body, in a very specific cultural, historical, social context. I am white, I have a college degree, I wear earrings, I have a beard, I live in Los Angeles, I'm Jewish, I am American, I have healthcare. All of that is real. And so, what does it mean for me to do both at the same time? Like Christ says, how do we be in the world but not of it? Right? How do we understand that yes, we have to have our feet in in in two planes, at least two planes at once at the same time? And only by being in both can we begin to itch and scratch toward the truth, you know? If I ignore the horrors happening all over the world, and there are so many genocide, starvation, famine, right here in my in Los Angeles, five minutes from me, there's camps of people living on the street. If I ignore that, I'm closing my heart off. And I become, you know, I become I become subhuman because I'm because I refuse to to see and hold the suffering of my siblings. If all I do is stare at that and live in the sorrow and the horror, then I'm closing my heart off to the beauty of the baby being born, the rose unfolding, the sun rises again. And so it's this study over and over and over, Jason, for me. It's this study of how do I be in both planes at once, whether it's about gender, whether it's about politics, whether it's about uh the the the housing crisis in the United States, the genocide in Gaza, I mean you name it. It's like how do I live in the truth and the horror of this reality, and also the reality that this is heaven right now and it's right inside of me. And again, as a cell of the organism, I think of myself sometimes as a cell of the organism of humanity. If I turn my light on just as one cell, then maybe a few cells around me will be like, oh shit, we can turn our light on too, oh that's nice. And then I just have this image of like, you know, you're up in uh in the plane and you see the lights down on the land, and all the lights maybe are slowly flickering on. I can't turn on all the lights myself. And I think that's something I grieve. I think for a long time I thought I could. I think I thought I could save the world in some kind of more grandiose way. But I think what I'm realizing is that no one's coming to save me. I can't save the world. What I can do is save myself. And if I am able to save myself, faith then invites me to believe and trust that the people around me, again, them with ears, let them hear, them with eyes, let them see, you know, that them with with light detection, you know, the people who are ready to turn on their own light, maybe I can be part of a mass movement of people believing enough in our own light and our own capacity for transformation that I can help you know usher us as humans into the into the next uh the next era, which which I pray and hope and know uh is an era of of um profound transformation, ascension, unity, and love.
SPEAKER_03Hallelujah, amen, uh Mazeltoff on whatever the whatever all the words are. You know, it makes me think about that Marion Williamson quote. You know, it's not our light that we're not our darkness for most of it's our light, and at the end, it's like as we shine our light, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. Yes. They may not realize it or not, but like there's something that touches them. Also, I think it's a George Bernard Shaw quote that's like the world doesn't need more people doing whatever, it needs more people coming alive. And that's really what I'm hearing in in what you're sharing.
The Meaning Behind Whatever Mike
SPEAKER_03And so share then, because I think this is related to your your artist name, Whatever Mike. Can you share a little bit about like where that name came from and what it means? Maybe you just did, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01So hi, my name is Whatever Mike, and I believe that we can be whatever we want to be in the world. And I believe that to be alive is that's what I say at the beginning of my shows. I believe that to be alive is to be part of the earth, and part of the earth is transformation. And so when I remember that I'm part of a thing that is constantly changing, the Big Bang happened. And now I'm the Big Bang. And it's not that I'm breathing, the the universe is breathing me. And the consciousness of everything is doing me. I'm not doing anything, I'm being done by it. And in that being done by it, I am changing all the time. Like literally, all my cells are changing. I'm breathing in new air, breathing out old carbon dioxide. And I am, I am all of it, and all of it is me. And so any mic you know, I might as well be that mic. You know, I could be that mic, that mic, that mic, that mic. I could be you, Jason, but I couldn't do whatever, you know. I thought about doing like anybody mic when I when I was coming up with this name. Whatever, there's a lot of ways to get at it. But yeah, thinking about whatever mic is kind of like I could be any mic, I could be any person because every person is me and I'm every person. And it's also a little bit of like, whatever, Mike. Me being with that one, it's like me to myself. Like when I'm on my bullshit, it's a reminder to be like, girl, whatever. Like, drop it, leave it, and remember to come back to being truly whatever, Mike.
SPEAKER_03It's like not taking the self, small self, small s self too seriously, exactly and returning back to the capital S self.
SPEAKER_01Totally.
SPEAKER_03That's a good bit of pressure. I I do want to ask you a I want to go back to
Writing Process And Production Choices
SPEAKER_03the origin of the song. So, like, was it like a melody? Did you just start writing lyrics? You're like, I hey, when when were you like, there's there's a song here?
SPEAKER_01So I wrote this song. Um, this song was birthed in collaboration with my with my friend Jonathan Charles, who uh produced the Everything to Gain EP. Jonathan's an amazing producer, multi-instrumentalist, um friend, spiritual being. He's amazing. He has his own music too. Um, you should have him on the podcast. I can connect you. Um How did this one start? This was like our first session, me and Jonathan first session. I was very much in this space of contemplation, reflection around around confession and around um naming my own complicity with uh with violence and with uh harm and um i don't remember exactly what happened but maybe i was often i'm like playing piano at jonathan's studio and maybe i came up with a little piano riff or maybe he was came up with the piano riff he he plays piano way better than me but sometimes i still like to play and kind of start the songs that way and then he'll come in and do a better version um and yeah I sat down once we kind of had the general like the kind of like the music are you playing right now at the piano right now damn so once we had that he got onto the computer and he started like building out the track and he was adding synths and drums and all this and I just sat down and I cracked open the laptop and I was sitting on the pillow on the floor and I just started writing. I just and it just came I knew it was holy God I am flaw and it just kind of it just came and sometimes songs just come like lyrics and stories just come and I was I think I was ready to write a song about yeah about complicity and accountability and transformation which are these themes that I've been thinking a lot about for a number of years and honestly we worked on it for several months but that first day like 75% of the song was born and was was there. It just kind of came and then we refined a lot of it like we had the original version was more um it didn't have as many like uh electronic elements like it was kind of more all acoustic instruments and then I actually went home and Jonathan went in and he like kind of he like he like that night he sent me a bounce he was like hey like I took a stab at doing this a little more like you know like electro and obviously it's it's you know it's in the middle and it was so great and then we kind of like ran with that direction a little more and then I came in and I tweaked a lot of the lyrics and I had a lot of harmonies and then you hear the confess, confess all those stacks. That's me and also my dear friend Camille Trust who's a beautiful vocalist and artist songwriter. So she came in and she layered other harmonies and yeah it was a lot of fine fine toothed you know combing. And then at the end I have the St. Francis prayer which is a prayer that I've learned um from different spiritual contexts that I've been in. And um yeah I wanted to include that too because it felt really honest you know it's it's it's a prayer that feels so non-binary to me you know where there is hatred let me so love. Because it's also about let me so love where there is uh injury let me so pardon where there is doubt let me so faith. It's like it's taking accountability and responsibility like if there's fucked up shit around okay well let me be the one to fucking and not in a martyr way not in like I'm gonna save the world but in a like well I'm responsible and I have the power to hold myself up and and be a light here you know yeah oh my gosh yes there's a one of the books that I study is called The Way of Mastery.
SPEAKER_03It's a channel teaching of non-religious Jesus, Jeshua, Sananda. And there's this one teaching in it that says self-honesty is the greatest act of self-love and there's a whole passage about it like even better than anything in the human experience even better than the best sex you could ever have or anything else like self-honesty is the greatest act of self-love and so when I hear the song and I think about what you wrote and it's like just yeah it it rings
Queerness As A Practice Of Truth
SPEAKER_03true.
SPEAKER_01So can I can I respond to that? Please yeah I think that's so true. And I I I want to I want to bring in a little bit of the queer piece here that feels related to that. I think for me my queerness and my gender nonconformity and my gender fluidity has been such a practice and a space for me to learn self-honesty. And for a long time it was about gender and it was about like political gender rights and that and I and I'm still about that of course and what's happening in this country is horrific and the attack on trans people is a fucking horrible, unspeakable disgraceful and frankly a sin against God. And the reason that trans people are being targeted right now and that queer people are being targeted is because we are one group of people that has the courage to be honest about ourselves, to be self-honest. And the powers that be are so driven by a lack of self-honesty are so driven by straight up lying to themselves that when trans people and gender nonconforming people come around and say, hey actually this is who I am and it's you have no model for this and you and you have no capacity to understand that I can be something beyond your imagination, beyond your box, then the people are triggered because they realize without even knowing it that they're being dishonest with themselves. Because queer and trans people are a mirror that cisnormative white supremacist capitalist world cannot handle because it's too powerful of a mirror. And it it it so sharply displays the way that there is a lack of self-honesty and I think self-honesty is under attack for the very reason that you just said because we live in a world that is all about dishonesty. It's all about lying I mean look at our political situation right now. Like we literally have this corrupt lying government at at every le at the highest levels you know and truth becomes then and honesty become you know enemies of the state honesty at this point is an enemy of the state. And so you look at the groups that are honest and they're they become they become the ones that are targeted.
SPEAKER_03Well you said it's an enemy of the state makes me think of you know one of my teachers again Jesus I wouldn't consider myself like Christian like that but he was definitely an enemy of the state hey say that say that as was Gandhi and and many other people who are physically silenced but uh yeah their heart and their spirit and their energy is still very much present and more powerful like Obi-Wan Konomi says you strike me down I will be more powerful than you could possibly imagine. Yeah I still love it. Can we talk about the lyrics some of the lyrics? I mean
Self Grace And Saving Yourself
SPEAKER_03we could literally go through line by line which would take you know a lot longer um but let me start with this question. Are there any specific lyrics that like when you think of the song you're like yeah that one like I'd like to say something on that or that's like one that you know other things are kind of built around or is important for people to hear.
SPEAKER_01One of the lyrics that comes to mind is um I give myself the grace and um I got a lot of slack online specifically for that lyric and also from from conservative Christians and also from this lyric um but can I I gotta ask you this hold on yeah yeah conservative Christians are watching your stuff like how why are they even like what's what how are they is it on YouTube?
SPEAKER_03Are they on Instagram? Do they follow you? Like is there like well of course they are everybody's following different people it just seems like kind of a waste of energy to go onto somebody's I mean I guess that's the internet maybe I don't I don't do that. So it's hard to see like I can go on somebody's page or thing and rail on them but I guess that's a lot more common than people than I think.
SPEAKER_01So maybe I think what drives a lot of traffic on the internet. And I think it's what's it's one of the things that like makes us so polarized in this moment is that these algorithms know that anger and outrage drive ad sales so they take a visibly queer artist like me that obviously is going to hit with some people but also be at least confusing and probably even offensive to many people, you know? And I'm a whole you know bearded person in a dress literally singing about God and you show that to conservative Christians, that's going to keep them engaged. It's gonna keep them outraged. And so the algorithm I think shows it to them because it keeps those people coming back and it keeps those people engaged and then and then ad sales are driven and business does what it's meant to do, which is make money at the expense of human suffering.
SPEAKER_03So quick side on that because you're probably it's exactly what you said there was a study done when social media first came out about what made it so like the addicting quality and it's moral outrage to either side as long as you can create some kind of moral outrage you got the eyeballs and then you have the you know you have the ad money. So it doesn't matter like you know it happens the other way too for sure. Yeah yeah it's just about any kind of moral outrage. Totally.
SPEAKER_01So anyways back to the line a lot of a lot of people were offended by this idea there's a line and only I can make that right there's a lot of like self-responsibility where like the song is really saying like I am responsible for myself I'm responsible for my thinking I'm responsible for my heart I'm responsible for how I operate and move in this world. And I think a lot of people were like you know in a kind of boring conservative Christian way were like no they're not only Jesus is the is is the one and I just feel like what's what's missing in that analysis and what I would want to offer in my spiritual perspective is Jesus says I don't I don't remember the exact quote but basically like heaven is in your heart you know I I I the father and the son are with you right so so for me that's a metaphor about the fact that like there is no escaping God there's no separation between you and me and them and God like God consciousness love you know and so when I remember that at the end of the day like I am the one that has to have the mental fortitude and the heart fortitude and the presence to believe that I am worthy of living I mean let's be honest I could kill myself any day suicide is easy. It doesn't take a lot and I'm not saying that because I'm suicidal and I don't say that to make light of suicide but every day we are choosing to be alive you know and I think that that choice is often unconscious for a lot of people but I think for people who are coming into themselves and questioning themselves like you start to realize like oh being alive in many ways is a choice. And so if I'm gonna be here I want to be here and I want to do it transparently with myself and whether I'm whether I'm devoting that to like a God whether it makes sense for me to like have God out there that I pray to which is cool like devotional like using like the vehicle of devotion cool great and I love the vehicle of devotion and also like I'm that thing that I'm devoted to I'm still learning this. I'm still figuring out but it's yes it's out there but it's also right here and so like I'm just learning like as I as I move through the predicament of being a human it just feels like I have to surrender to the higher power and in a very non-binary way that higher power is God but that higher power is God within me you know and so I give myself I give myself the grace there's no one coming to save me there's no one that's gonna make it right for me. Like I have to be willing to look at how I'm fucked up be accountable be willing to change for the ways that I'm fucked up and then forgive myself and believe that I'm worthy of trying again even if and this is a hard one for me even if the people who I have caused harm to are not ready to forgive me because they might have me in jail in their mind for the next 20 years and what I did may have been fucked up and also I cannot have myself in jail for 20 years because then what am I doing? How am I being of service then so it's a tricky one because I also do not mean to be preaching a message of oh I did this thing I confessed what hands washed I'm done because that's not what it is either we need accountability you know we need we need real the real work of of change and that looks different for everybody but that takes time that's painful it's ugly it's embarrassing it's shameful it's uncomfortable it's sticky I think that's why the song is so sorry go ahead.
SPEAKER_03No no no please please jump I think that's why it's so powerful it's because like shit whatever Mike's like that's what I'm going through he's singing what yeah that is it is painful. It is sticky it is uncomforta wildly uncomfortable and he's you know Mike is they are describing my experience so I feel seen and heard and like okay like I'm not the only one going through this. And you know what you said was so powerful and I think no one's coming to save you. No one's coming to save me and I think that's the good news I think ultimately that's the tea teaching of Jesus like no one's coming to save you. I you know the conservative Christians I guess maybe get really mad that you know he's the savior but I would say like the good news is that you save yourself in a way through your own love through your own healing and like I'm not gonna do it for you. It's your it's your gift it's your privilege to do it for yourself in a way and I think there's also the surrender fully completely so it's not the ego that I'm talking about it's this higher self that's inviting it.
SPEAKER_01That's the gag. Like it's not yes it's me that's gonna save me but it's not me the ego. It's me the higher self me which if you want to call Jesus then call it Jesus and I do pray to Jesus and say Jesus please fucking help me you know but I also realize that I'm that that that thing that I'm praying to is it exists in me. And as soon as I put a word or a concept on it I'm actually potentially deviating from it. Yesterday I saw somebody say the highest prayer is silence.
SPEAKER_03It's beautiful. Yeah which really resonated with me I gotta hear one more thing so you'll dig in in the way of in the way of mastery there's a passage where Jesus is talking he's like hey I'm always there for you you you pray you know you pray for me like I'm always gonna support you and there's gonna this always gives me good there will be a moment where you're like hey I love you but I'm not gonna call on you like I I got this I'm gonna do this. And you're right next to me. It's like the the footprints in the sand like you know Jesus is carrying people and you only see one set of footprints and I thought you you bailed on me and she's like no I was carrying you during that hard time. This is like the other way around it's like there's two footprints like hey we're walking side by side versus you doing the work for me. So totally yeah it's really really beautiful. Um I loved it I think there's also a line there too maybe you could just mention this a little bit like I'm doing my best. There's an acknowledgement like I'm I'm doing my best and maybe it's I don't know what what what would you say that it's not enough or I'm still gonna fail fall short or what's that line mean to you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah
Compassion Without Denying Harm
SPEAKER_01I think the idea of doing my best um is really something that I think I learned from transformative justice basis um specifically in 2020 around the Black Lives Matter movement and um just a lot of black feminist thinking that has offer and a few you know people like Audrey Lord and James Baldwin and more more modern thinkers too who offer the idea that like we have to believe that everybody is doing what they're capable of doing and they're doing their best. Like no one is sitting around even the worst people we can think of they think in their in their mind or even in their mental illness if you want to call it that they think that what they're doing is the thing to do. Like and even if they think oh I'm gonna do something bad well then them thinking that they're gonna do something bad is the thing that they think they need to do. And what I'm really talking about here is good faith and actually believing that we are all children of God you know whatever that we are all that we all have Buddha nature you know that we all in our heart have this golden stone right that needs to be polished and dusted and because of the dust because of the sin because of the ignorance we deviate. But that deviation is our best and I think thinking that I'm always doing my best invites me to remember that everyone else is doing their best and it gives me the compassion for myself and the compassion for people around me who maybe offend me maybe do something that hurts me but it allows me to remember that they're also a human an imperfect human who's doing their best and nothing is personal. You know they're not they're not out here no one's out here to get me everyone's doing what they think they should do. And as I'm saying this I'm hearing the critic in my own mind going girl people are out here to get you and there is like violence is real and and these political movements happening right now look at what ICE is doing. ICE is very much out here to get specifically you know brown immigrants but also more than that it's expanding and they're attacking you know every everybody and and also like and this is this is a sticky one like all those ICE agents as much as I want them to quit as much as I want them to have an awakening and stop what they're doing and I pray they do and I really do pray that ICE agents wake up and quit their job they're doing their best and what happened to those people that they think a $500 signing bonus and going around and fucking being slave catchers 2026 versions that they think that that's what they need to be doing what happened to those people because I do not believe that any baby or child is born thinking yeah I'm gonna go around and rip families apart and that's the right thing to do. Those people have been corrupted by a system that has made them so desperate that that's the only path that they see possible for them. And if I want to say right to my fuck you you fucking nice people that's real too that anger is right there in my heart and fuck you. I do feel that and also that's my ego my higher self says what happened to you stop first of all stop definitely stop and also what happened to you and what does healing look like for us for you because you know this this it it can't it can't be as simple as and this goes to the quote we've been doing the blame and the get and the revenge and the and the finger pointing and the anger you killed my father so now I'll kill yours we've been doing that for 6000 years. I mean you look across time and space and that is what humans have been doing forever and it's real and I feel that anger in my chest and we need the anger and we need the rage and also we need the anger and the rage to be a portal that transports us and allows us to transcend to a different way of thinking that's never been done before. I get criticized for talking about peace and people say oh peace is the white man's word peace is just that the peace I'm talking about is a piece we've never known before. It's an unprecedented piece that's never been seen before that actually says what happened to these people what happened to Donald Trump what happened to Bibi Netanyahu? What happened to these cops? What happened to these ICE uh agents that are doing all this horrific unspeakable violence against against against our community and and frankly against themselves right and so that that's kind of what I'm interested in and I don't I don't have all the answers because there's a lot we you know there's a lot to figure out in this new paradigm and I don't claim to have it all figured out I just claim to be one humble student and and and singer who's like hey I think that I think that the truth is in the softness. I think that the truth is actually going to be in the softness. So yes let's be hard and let's be angry and let's be shielded and all that is true and real and also I think when we really want to try to get it through the through the slit, you know it's a real tight slit to get it through and I think the way through that slit is going to be softness and compassion not anger and outrage.
SPEAKER_03And what you do is that slit is like feels like the eye of the needle that we all must pass through but we have to no one can do it for us. It's a slit because only we can pass through it for ourselves. So when you were talking about we've been doing this for 6000 years it made me think how The Princess Bride is like one of the best movies I think in in modern movie making it would be such a different movie if he said my name is Inigo Matoya you kill my father and I forgive you right we all like oh he fucking got the six finger he got reven he avenged his father like we love that and at the same time it's like oh shit what what if he said what if that was it he got there and he's like and I forgive and he put the sword down and maybe he fucking got killed himself because you know that's who that guy six finger managers are killer. I don't know but like it would be a such and such a different movie.
SPEAKER_01But I think that's what it's gonna take like it's gonna take and you mentioned maybe he gets killed himself like I think it's going to take a certain vulnerability I don't want to get too into any specific current events. I felt my mind to but I think it's going to take a vulnerability that may mean putting ourselves in danger in the name of love in the name of softness in the name of compassion rather than continuing endlessly tirelessly to live out this politics this spiritual politics of fear and defensiveness.
SPEAKER_03One more one more line if you're up for it because I I've been one I wonder about this one. I
Loving Means Grieving Change
SPEAKER_03want to hear it straight from your mouth Yeah. Because to love is to grieve all the things we could be.
SPEAKER_01I'm glad you asked about that one. I'm non-binary, which means that you are me. It means that they are us. It means that I see all separation as kind of an illusion of the mind. And it also informs how I think about living. And if I truly love you, it means that I'm going to be honest about the fact that you're dying. And that you're changing. And the person that I love today is not who I'm going to love tomorrow. If I truly love myself, I have to be honest with the fact that I'm dying. And the person I love in me today is not who I'm going to be tomorrow. The world that I love today is not what the world will be tomorrow. If I truly love what it is, then I have to love the fact that it is transforming. Reality is change. Octavia Butler says, God is change. I say God is reality and reality is change. And so if I want to really be in love with anybody or anything, I have to accept that it's changing and I have to be willing to grieve it because it won't be what I thought it was. And tomorrow it'll be gone. And so to love is to grieve all the things we could be. All the things we might be, all the things we were.
SPEAKER_03So what I hear in that is like I love. I am love or I love. No matter what's changing, you might change, I might change. And you've kind of like this feels like the theme for me of this song and you, and maybe that's my own projection, which is like just I love. No matter what's happening or what anyone else is doing, I love. That's the practice for sure. Otherwise, then what? If you're not loving, what what what are we what are we expressing? If we're not loving, it's things other than love, fear, anger, hate, or whatever. But like, okay, so my responsibility is to be the presence, the expression of love, and sometimes it's really soft. Sometimes that's strong. Like I'm not gonna judge and try and figure out with my intellect what it looks like. It will make itself known in the appropriate and highest good way in each moment, if that is my intention, that's my belief, and that's what partly maybe what I want to hear, what I'm hearing, what you're sharing. It's like no matter what changes, no matter what anyone else is doing, yeah, I'm gonna have my human experience. And I love that's unconditional. No condition needs to be present or different for me to be loving.
SPEAKER_01Totally. And I hear you talking about like firm, we something that I talk about. I have this concept with some friends, we talk about firmness and like to stay firm, you know, like the winds will blow and this the stuff will happen and the currents will come. And what does it mean for me to be firm, you know, and to like to root when I breathe into me, I can see that I'm free. When I, you know, what does it mean for me to root into myself and literally be like a tree? And yes, have give, but also like I'm rooted and I'm connected to the earth and the ground and the ancestors and the other trees in myself, you know. So it's not like isolationist and it's not rugged individualist either. But it is a knowing within myself that I have what I need and I am what I need.
SPEAKER_03All right, couple more questions.
What Hope Pop Really Means
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Move on from the lyrics. Uh, you describe your music in a lot of ways, and one of them is hope pop. Can you share a little bit more about that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think again that it's easy to succumb to fear and division. I actually think that's like kind of like the fall from grace and and the sort of the thing that unites all of us as humans is we all get caught in the division, in the separation. And I have seen in myself, and I have seen in people around me, and I have seen in communities and collectives around me that accountability is possible, repair is possible, transformation is possible, restoration is possible. And sometimes when I'm living in the fear space, it's really hard to hold on to the fact that things can change, that that love is changed. And hope is about dedicating myself and my heart to a posture of transformation. It's about saying, Hey, this can change. Hey, the way things are, things don't have to be this way. And that light in my heart that like I try to keep lit, that I work to keep lit, that I practice to keep lit, that I practice to keep strong. So that's even so it goes from a light to there's a big flaming fire. Maybe there are days where it's just a little a little flicker. But that light is the light of hope, is the light of hope that's in me that I think is the light of hope in in all beings, actually. That like we don't have to live in a world where so many people are starving, where children are being bombed, where people are, you know, don't have what they need. Like we have everything we need. And there's a lot of evidence that would point to the fact that that's not true. And so hope hop is about a heart posture of transformation.
A Ministry Of The Miracle
SPEAKER_03You know, in a previous conversation, you talked about like you're feeling you're moving into a phase of your life where you want to be more, and you'll correct me, but like more vocal. Like there's a there's a message or a ministry that wants to be expressed. I think we're experiencing it in this uh in this time today, which is wonderful to receive. Can you share more about that? And maybe just like uh I think it's important for people to hear an example of one that is waking up to um a I would call it a calling um or a ministry or something.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, Jason, what I would say is I I am amazed by the miracle, the miracle of of my own heartbeating, of your heartbeating. I'm looking at the window at my the trees in my backyard. The sun rises every day, the babies are born, the flowers are blooming, the wind on my skin, the people I love, the feeling of being loved, the the sensation of a cold glass of water on a hot day. The miracles are all around us at all times. And my my ignorance or my sin or my fall from grace is that I get distracted and I get caught in some story about how I'm too much or not enough or why this didn't happen or this did happen. And then the work for me is to come back to the miracle over and over and over. And that's why I meditate, to practice coming back and coming back and coming back. And guess what? I've been meditating for a long time and I still gotta come back. I still haven't fucking figured it out. But that practice is what roots me in devotion, in love, in it, in the miracle, in devotion to the miracle. And I see that miracle in you, I see it in me, I see it in all beings. And what people call religion or spirituality for me is just like another way to call that is let's stay focused on the miracle. Let's stay focused on the miracle because it's everywhere. And when we're focused on the miracle, we can see that we are the miracle. We believe in the miracle. We know we become closer to the miracle because we see that there was never any separation from the miracle in the first place. And so, you know, I'm I've been doing this for 10 years now, 10 plus years. You know, I've been making music professionally, and my music has had a long journey through a lot of different pieces and themes. And right now I just feel really called to speak on the miracle. And um, I feel like specifically as a queer person, so many queers have um trauma, religious trauma. And, you know, I'm not, I don't care about religion. I don't care about God. You know, I don't care about these kind of the terms. I care about the miracle and the sanctity of the miracle and the focus on the miracle, which in practice basically just means like, hey, let's be kind to ourselves and in turn be kind to each other. And um, yeah, I do feel called to make music and poetry and words and community and spaces where um the remembrance and the honoring and the celebration of that miracle is centered. And that's what I'm trying to do.
SPEAKER_03And so it is. I think you're doing it. I think you're doing it. Um all right, so we had the privilege of I had the privilege, sorry.
Breathwork As Release And Rebirth
SPEAKER_03I had the privilege of facilitating a Revelation Breath Work session for you, and I'm curious what your experience was during that time.
SPEAKER_01Well, it was a privilege for me too, and thank you so much for uh for facilitating that for me. It was really, really cool. Um, you know, I think that one of the things we've kind of been dancing around in this conversation is this idea of death as rebirth. And again, I again going back to the non-binary piece, like I feel that death is necessary for rebirth. And so every day I want to let a piece of myself die so I can become who I really am, become closer and closer and closer to my truest, highest, most divine, sacred self. Um, and I think one of the ways that that practice can happen is moving through uncomfortable situations that often in the, you know, after the pain, the pain is the portal. And then after you move through the pain, you kind of feel the bliss. So you talk to like athletes who do a really hard workout, or people that work with plant medicine and do an ayahuasca ceremony or mushroom ceremony, and it's maybe challenging. And then on the other side, they have this clarity. And for me, the breath work experience was very much that it was challenging, it was uncomfortable, my body was uncomfortable. I had sensations in my body that were um, yeah, not scary, but uncomfortable and kind of not how I usually like to feel or want to feel. But I was able to trust you and trust myself and trust the practice, um, and trust my experience with discomfort that on the other side of it would be a lot of clarity and release and relief. And even in the discomfort, I felt so much um so much coming out, like so much purge, like even just the way I was like I was making all these weird noises. And it really felt like I was getting a lot out. I had actually had a ceremony experience a couple weeks ago where I was crying, but I was in a room with people who were meditating and I didn't want to be loud with my crying, so I kind of like held it back. So I was like tears, but my throat was tight because I wasn't allowing the vocal part to come out. I didn't tell you this. And in our breath work session, I was really grateful because I felt like the vocal release was like a major purge that I needed. That sometimes in other contexts, if there are other people, I wouldn't have felt as comfortable to do. It was it was revelatory breath work.
What’s Next And Where To Listen
SPEAKER_03What are you up to now? Where can we find you?
SPEAKER_01So I'm uh I'm getting ready to put out some more music. Um, I have a lot more music coming next year and some tour dates I'll be announcing for next year. Um, but my music is available everywhere. My new EP, Everything to Gain, is out everywhere on all platforms. Um I'm on social media everywhere, and um yeah, I have a lot of new offerings coming next year in terms of new music, and I'm working, always working on ways to kind of circumvent the industry and uh create direct relationships and connections with fans and supporters. So anybody who's watching this and seeing this and curious to have me come play a show in your home or your cultural space or your synagogue or your church or your queer center or your performance space, I'm here and I want to work with you. So um yeah, I'm just so grateful to be here.
SPEAKER_03Well, whatever, Mike, you're the best. Thank you so much for being here. I really feel you know, an instant connection with you through your music, first of all. And then when we had the you know the opportunity to connect, it's been it's been a lot of fun. So uh grateful that you're here. Everyone, check out whatever, Mike. Uh, and uh hopefully maybe we'll have you on again sometime and we'll do something in person and we'll do something in Nashville, and uh let's keep it going. I love it. Definitely. Thanks so much, Jason.