Disarming the Distorted Truth about Doubt (with Austin Fruits)

In this episode, we discuss the complex relationship between doubt and faith, exploring how doubt is often misconstrued as sin. Special guest and international speaker Austin Fruits joins us as we share personal stories of doubt, define what doubt truly means, and address cultural challenges that both younger and older generations face in their faith journeys. Listen in as we talk about the importance of encouraging open discussions about doubt, especially among parents and guardians, and highlight practical ways to navigate these challenges through "mirrors, maps, and mystery".

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Doubt and Faith
• 0:54 Personal Journeys and Experiences with Doubt
• 17:34 Defining Doubt: Rational vs. Emotional
• 21:44 The Pursuit of Truth and Comfort
• 23:21 Encouragement for Those in Doubt
• 26:25 Faith: Trust in Action
• 31:19 Practical Applications: Mirrors, Maps, and Mystery
• 34:23 Doubt as a Path to Deeper Discipleship
• 34:47 Challenges to Faith in Modern Society

Transcript

Shelley Komoszewski (00:00)
Hello and welcome to the In and For podcast where we are in and for Christ and in and for culture. My name is Shelley Komoszewski.

Brock Anderson (00:09)
I'm Brock Anderson and today we have a critical topic that we highlighted last week. We talked about distorted truths. One of the distorted truths that's really plaguing those who are younger, but it definitely extends to those who older as well, is around this idea of doubt.

Shelley Komoszewski (00:26)
Mm.

Brock Anderson (00:30)
When it comes to my faith, when it comes to what I believe about God, because we see so many positive messages about what we need to believe about God and so many positive things that Jesus is doing for us and with us that we see in these sound bites and on social media and such, we begin to believe that if I begin to doubt God's goodness in my life or I begin to doubt certain

things about about my beliefs, then that doubt is always and only sin. And we definitely want to talk a little bit more deeply about that and challenge that a little bit. That's a distorted truth that we're facing in culture today. And is doubt always wrong? Is doubt always sin? When a Christian doubts, are they always in the wrong? And so we definitely want to look at that. Today we have,

Shelley Komoszewski (00:57)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

⁓

Brock Anderson (01:18)
see this third person here with us. This is Austin Fruits, who's an international speaker in Josh McDowell Ministry and speaks on doubt, both both here in U. S. and and abroad as well and is well positioned to give us some great information and some great takeaways on how to think about doubt correctly and give us some insights that we can take into our everyday relationships as well. So I am very thrilled to introduce

Shelley Komoszewski (01:22)
Woop-woo!

Mm-hmm.

Brock Anderson (01:44)
Austin fruits, Austin, tell us a little bit just about yourself.

Austin Fruits (01:48)
Yeah, my name's Austin. And like you said, Brock, I'm a speaker with the ministry. And some of the things I'm passionate about is speaking about not only the truth of Christianity, but also the goodness and the beauty of it, because it's so much more than just intellectual concepts. Like we have a good God of the Bible who interacts with us personally. And there's life in that. When Jesus said, I've come that you may have life and life more abundant. Like, what is that?

what are some of those reasons that were drawn to the Christian faith and how it meets our longing? So I'd love to talk about that. My wife and I live out here in San Diego and that's a little bit about me.

Shelley Komoszewski (02:25)
Wait a second. Hold on. Hold on. So he's married to the most amazing Hannah fruits and you guys are brand new parents. Tell us about how that's going.

Brock Anderson (02:27)
This is somebody.

Austin Fruits (02:35)
We are, we have a little daughter, Everlane. She just turned three months old and through the sleepless nights, we're learning how to be parents. And so it is a joy. It's an experience. I've heard a lot of people say, this was really interesting to me. When you marry someone, it's almost like all of your expectations and thoughts and flaws are written out on a whiteboard every day.

Shelley Komoszewski (02:42)
Yes, yes you are.

Austin Fruits (02:59)
as you're seeing that reflected in someone else. But when you have a kid, you're not just put on a whiteboard, you're literally squeezed. And so everything inside of you starts to come out as you're going through the sleepless nights and the struggle. But it's a growing, beautiful experience, that's for sure.

Shelley Komoszewski (03:15)
Well said.

Brock Anderson (03:16)
You'll be happy

to know it gets a lot easier as they get more.

Shelley Komoszewski (03:20)
Well, does it? It just, I don't know if it gets easier, it just gets different challenges. Brock made a joke. All right, well, let's jump in. Austin, where he's so excited to have you here. Why this topic? Tell us your personal connection to this.

Austin Fruits (03:34)
So a few years ago now, I found myself in a place I never thought I would ever be. I'm a pastor's kid, grew up in the church, loved apologetics and evangelism from a really, really young age. like a couple of years ago, my friend and I heard, or my wife and I heard about a friend who was writing a book that I found interesting. He called it Red Letter Theology. And this...

book was about if we only had the teachings of Jesus today, how would our theology be different? So if we only had the red letters in the gospels, like how would that change our core views of Christianity? And as I began to have conversations with him, read the manuscript of this book, I learned that my friend had deconstructed his faith, was calling himself a progressive Christian. And as I read this, I found things like he denied

things like original sin. He said that this was just an invention that happened over time. He denied that the Bible was authoritative. He denied Paul's writings, that the commandments we read in scripture, they are not relevant to us today and that if Jesus were here, he would agree with a lot of the social practices that we see in culture today. So it's like wanting the love of Jesus without any of his commandments and God's design that's outlined in scripture.

And so when he brought up these things and in the conversation with him, we were talking and I had a few objections like, well, what do you think about this? What do you think about this? And he was extremely smart, had an answer to every one of my objections and was really, really nice and caring. And it was almost like, okay, I feel like I have to almost like give an answer to what is the classic view of Christianity.

How do we know it's true? And I began to go down the YouTube and podcast rabbit trail of deconstruction stories. And it was the first time I dove into this stuff and began to hear stories of church hurt, spiritual abuse, emotional abuse, young people crying out like I had this painful experience in my life and I cried out to God and just heard silence.

Like, why didn't God show up in my life? Why am I experiencing this angst and anxiety and struggle in my life? God, where are you? And those stories really burdened me. And they brought up a lot of questions about like, God, where are you in these people's stories? And I saw those stories and then began to experience the pain myself as I saw two deaths that were really close to Hannah and I. One of them, a mom, she was

the mom of five kids under the age of five, and ended up OCDing on suicide and took her own life and left five kids and a father to pick up the pieces. And we walked through the grief of that with her sister. And just so many questions came up of like, this is an immense amount of suffering and grief. God, where are you? And then Shelly, your daughter.

Shelley Komoszewski (06:11)
Hmm.

Austin Fruits (06:26)
a 17 year old who I was like, man, I felt like her life was unjustly taken on fire for the Lord. And I look at that and I go, God, like, where are you? And it all led up to an event that I was speaking at and it was a youth retreat where I gave three talks and was asked to share the gospel at the end and put all this work into it, share the gospel and ask if anyone wants to receive

receive Christ, repent from their sin and believe in Jesus. And in that big audience of students, nobody raises their hand. And in that moment, it was just like all of these stories of the deconstruction stories, the personal pain, the hurt came bubbling up inside of me of like the gospel in that moment. I like to think of it as it just felt like empty words. I'm just sharing this stuff, but like, man, do I really believe this? Does it make emotional sense for me?

Shelley Komoszewski (07:15)
you

Austin Fruits (07:21)
And I never thought I would ask those questions. I'm like, God, where are you? Is this stuff even real? I call myself an apologist and I struggled to answer my friends' questions. I call myself an evangelist and nobody raises their hands. And in that moment, there was just this struggle. And so I began to research and find answers and understand my doubts. And what I found is when I began to find answers to the intellectual questions, like solid, solid reasons,

that God exists, the Bible's reliable, Jesus is deity, death and resurrection, some of these core things, I found answers to those, but the questions still remained. And I began to realize, like, these are not just like doubts of the mind, it's an itch of the heart, real questions of Christianity's goodness and God's goodness. Is God personally there with us? And I began to realize, like, most of the illumination didn't come through the questions,

Shelley Komoszewski (08:01)
you

Mm.

Austin Fruits (08:12)
came through illuminating the questions I was asking and not just asking questions of the truthfulness of Christianity, but the goodness of Christianity and who God is and who we can trust. That's where I found foundations. And so this is why I care. I've been on a journey. I've found foundations that satisfy, that are firm, that don't shift with wavering emotions, but foundations that now

Shelley Komoszewski (08:30)
I'm sorry.

Mmm.

Austin Fruits (08:39)
I can face struggle and hurt and pain and real suffering in my life that we still experience. And I can go, yeah, but I know my North Star. I know where I'm going and I know who I can trust that has the answers. And so that's why I love to share about this is there's so many others I know that are in a position that I was a few years ago and that are just looking for a guide, someone to help them out and help them walk through their questions.

Shelley Komoszewski (09:01)
Yeah.

Well, you can tell by Austin's story that your authenticity and your heart for Jesus and your heart for the truth just shines through. So thanks again for being on this show today. We are going to have a great conversation.

Brock Anderson (09:17)
Yeah, transparency matters a lot on these kinds of of topics. And so you being willing to share your own story that this isn't just a compilation of what's been discovered after reading several books on this on this topic, or I've collected the best materials on this. But hey, this is this is this is from not just theological expertise and apologetic background, but from the experiences that the Lord has given me for the purpose of

sharing with others to better equip them. And that leads me to one of the questions that I I wanted to ask, which is as we look at defining doubt, I definitely want to look at how you define it because we definitely have a cultural understanding within the Christian realm of how it's defined oftentimes. And we talked a little bit the introduction here about how doubt equals sin and doubt can even equal denial.

is how some people would say it, that if I'm doubting God, well then I'm really denying him. And we're in this situation to where we're in danger of heresy, so then it becomes this word that you would never want to use with anybody, because you'd never want anybody to think that you're denying the Lord Jesus Christ, which then puts you in a position to where doubt becomes individualized and compartmentalized and allows the enemy to use it in a hundred different terrible ways.

And so what I wanted to ask you to do is just how do you define doubt?

Austin Fruits (10:39)
Yeah, one of the stories

that I came across when listening to all these deconstruction stories was a guy named John. And he had, grew up in the church, asking a lot of questions and was really interested in seeking what is real. And at school, they were talking a lot about evolution versus Christianity. And then he had some friends who were same-sex attracted. And he was wrestling with these two things and he began to bring

questions to his pastor and the pastor entertained some questions for a while, but got to a point where he basically said to John, hey, we don't ask these kinds of questions here. You should just have faith and belief. And the more that I've heard stories, there's a lot of people who have tried to ask questions within the Christian church and have been met with that kind of response.

And he says, mean, that was one of the pivotal moments that caused him to say like, if my questions aren't entertained, why am I not here? And I wonder if the pastor in that moment had equated doubt in questioning with unbelief. And somewhere along the line, that's what I think has happened a lot is if you're doubting enough questions, you're an unbeliever. This is unbelief. Oz Guinness wrote a really, really

in this conversation called God in the Dark, and he says the opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is unbelief. Doubt is the questioning in between faith and unbelief. It's been tied up with unbelief, but it's not that. And what I say is doubt is this. It's the experience of one of our beliefs seeming like it may be false.

the experience of one of our beliefs, seeming like it may be false. In James 1 6, it says, when you ask, you must believe and not doubt because one who doubts is like a wave tossed in the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. A lot of people describe doubt is like having a double mindedness. There's this unsettledness. I grew up in Minnesota where we spent a lot of time on the lake. And there's this experience that if you've been on a dock and a boat, you understand this, but

when you're stepping from the dock into the boat, you've got a foot, one foot on the side of the boat and one foot on the dock. One side that's stable, one side that's not. And if the boat starts drifting, all of a sudden you're like, this is really, really unsettling. And that's what it's like. It's having a foot in two boats of like, this is unsettling, what's going on? And it can, it's an unsettling experience. It can feel like it's being forced upon you.

Shelley Komoszewski (12:58)
Mmm.

Austin Fruits (13:06)
But that's what doubt is, the experience of one of our beliefs feeling like it may be false. And there's two parts of doubt that I think are two doubts that need to be differentiated. And this was super clarifying for me. There's a difference between rational doubt and emotional doubt. And they ask two different questions. So when I was asking intellectual questions, I was having rational doubt.

It's a doubt of the mind that's asking like, okay, how can we rationalize science and faith? Are they compatible? Did Jesus actually exist? Is the Bible reliable? How can we know? Those are intellectual questions that like, if you find your answer, you're like, oh, okay, I get it and you move on. But emotional doubt's really different. Emotional doubt is a doubt of the heart. And it's characterized by what if questions. Like, what if God doesn't show up in my life?

or what if he's not really good? What if my friends are right and I'm wrong? What if I can't trust him? Those are emotional questions that aren't just like, I hear a lot that a lot of people make decisions emotionally and then justify them rationally. Because if we just treat ourselves as minds on a stick, you're not talking about the whole human being as a person. We're much more than minds, we're hearts.

We have loves and desires and emotions and we're trusting people. think that's the key. We trust things and we look at objects and people as worthy of our trust and doubting that that's a deeply emotional question behind many intellectual questions are just emotionally hurting people. So doubts not the same as unbelief. It's just the questioning of what you actually believe in.

and the faith that you have in, there is intellectual doubt and there is emotional doubt, and understanding that's really, really important. Now, I think also something really important to understand is what faith is. Because faith, think, like, growing up, I thought faith was just this intellectual exercise of believing something. Like, it's intellectual ascent, where now I understand something. Faith is... It's more like trust in action.

trust in action. And the way I think about it is I took a road trip back in college with some of my friends and we road tripped across the country. And the original plan on this road trip was to hop in my my friend's little four door sedan cram four of us in there with all of our gear for two weeks on the road. And I show up with all of this camping gear, we're going to be hiking and backpacking across the country at all these different national parks. And I show up and I'm like,

I'm not sitting in the back of my friend's car with my knees to my chest for two weeks. This is not happening. Like that's not going to be a fun experience. And so I thought, I'm like, we got to take a different car. looked behind me at the car I just got out of and it was this big old suburban, this rust bucket that had spent its years in salty Minnesota. It's almost falling apart. And I think that's what we should be taking. There's room. We can sleep in the back. But I knew that that car was, I was coming up on 300,000 miles. And my big question was,

Shelley Komoszewski (15:47)
Ha

Austin Fruits (16:10)
I don't think this thing is gonna make it two weeks driving across the country. And I had a decision to make. Like I knew that it had brought me this far, this car that I had. I knew it ran in that moment. But if I would have just had like mere intellectual belief, I could have said, you know what? I think that that car is gonna make it across the country, but I'm getting in my other friend's car and we're taking that. To have faith in my car to get us across the country,

is to get in, shut the door and drive it. It's getting in the car and allowing it to take you to your destination. I mean, that's what faith is. It's not just believing something, it's trust in action, it's voluntarily. So with our faith in God is like, do I just believe in God or do I live this out? Am I putting this into action in my life? I think that's why Paul says that faith without works is dead.

Shelley Komoszewski (16:50)
So good.

Austin Fruits (17:01)
That's not a question of, am I putting my faith into action? Am I living this stuff out? I love the quote by Elizabeth Elliot, faith doesn't eliminate questions, it just knows where to take them. That's a trusting thing. It doesn't eliminate your questions, it knows where to take them. And the object of our faith is what makes all the difference.

Shelley Komoszewski (17:11)
⁓

Brock Anderson (17:19)
That's exactly right. I love how you clarified faith so succinctly. We spend so much time in the apologetic realm talking about what faith is, and faith is trust, and it's the object of your faith that matters above all things, and why Jesus is the ultimate source of where we put our trust, because he's trustworthy. And that's great that you succinctly define that there. I wondered...

Shelley Komoszewski (17:19)
So

Brock Anderson (17:45)
When we think about where people place their trust and their faith today, especially among younger Christians, just what challenges to faith are you seeing today that are causing Christians, younger or older, that are causing Christians to doubt?

Austin Fruits (18:02)
think there's a whole lot of reasons. The really prominent ones that I see over and over again is, first of all, there's a huge religious pluralism, at least within the West today, where it's like, a lot of young people believe that we're all on one big mountain and everyone's on their private path to the top. And like, we're all gonna get to whatever works for us.

And I've wondered like, why is this? Why is this? And I've thought like, how many of the things that I believe, do I actually know why I believe it? How many? Not a lot. I've tried to in my Christian faith a lot, but a lot of the times we just regurgitate opinions from other people that we hear. And I think a lot of the young people are like, well, I'm just trying to figure this stuff out and so is everyone else. Why should I judge them?

Who am I if I don't know why I believe what I believe or like, why should I be judging someone else on their own journey? And so religious pluralism is a foundation for today to not judge someone. And I think it's just, it's the virtue of tolerance that's misunderstood and misapplied. Like there really is a way. Jesus said, am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. And that's not, that is exclusive, but it's good news.

for us because that means that there's actually a solution. Religious pluralism is huge. And also the privatization of Christianity in people's lives, of religion is seen as just a value that's subjective, where it's not a public truth, it's a private opinion. Jesus' death and resurrection is not a private truth. That is a public reality that happened in space and time. His claims,

were foundational that flipped the Roman Empire upside down. And how the Christians live, that's a public reality. So pluralism, privatized Christianity. And then also, I think that nowadays, Christians sadly are known more for what they're against rather than who we're for. It's known as the bigots and the exclusive and the intolerant. And that's a lot of how we've been portrayed throughout the media, but that's what sticks in people's minds.

And that's why I think there's arisen a lot of moral objections to Christianity nowadays. It's a church hurt. It's that God can't be good and how can there only be one way? it makes me think of, so C.S. Lewis wrote years ago, it's modern man in his categories of thought. And he says this really, really interesting thing years ago that's very applicable to young people today. says,

and lecturing to popular audiences, I have repeatedly found it almost impossible to make them understand that I recommend Christianity because I thought its affirmations to be objectively true. They are not simply interested in the question of truth or falsehood. They only want to know if it's comforting, inspiring, or socially useful. Like, we believe in something because we think it works rather than it's actually being

Shelley Komoszewski (20:46)
you

Austin Fruits (20:52)
Like it's aesthetics over arguments. It's mood over meaning. It's feelings over fact. And that's what rules young people today. And so objections are gonna tie into that. Like, I mean, the reality is growing close to God. What I've learned is it takes time and it takes struggle. And you're not always gonna have those amazing emotions, but it's continuing to show up.

and allow God to surprise you and to wonder it is goodness. It's like Christianity is true and because it's true it works. And a lot of people just want something that works. Well, it does, but we've got to find that foundation that it's actually true.

Brock Anderson (21:30)
Yeah, so as you continue to pursue your education in philosophy, and for those listening, Austin is doing that, you definitely start to begin to see that come through as we see the correspondence view of truth compared to the pragmatic view of truth or even deflationary view of truth. And that was very, very well said. And that quote from C.S. Lewis is very powerful.

as well. So thank you for sharing that. I think you hit it right on the head of what's causing those to doubt today, the main issues that are causing those, both young and old, to face down. I know there are others out there, but that's a lot to chew on. And for those listening, just think carefully about these things that because of the fast pace of our culture, slowing down

and beginning to analyze and evaluate your own heart and your own mind and begin to think through, have I been prone to doubt? Have these things impacted me? These things that we just talked about, has this been my view of things? This is why we have this kind of podcast. It's not just to equip for you to go out, it's to encourage and it's to instill.

Shelley Komoszewski (22:26)
Mm.

Brock Anderson (22:38)
within Christians to know here's how we need to be thinking differently in order to affect those around us with truths that transform and as we talk about all the time, to point culture back to the essential truths of Christianity where true hope can be found. And encouragement's an important part of that as we talk about encouraging those endowed. And Shelley, I know you had something you wanted to share.

about encouragement for those in doubt. ⁓

Shelley Komoszewski (23:10)
I think

it's interesting as we're listening to this to challenge our own beliefs and I love Brock that you said we start inside and do a deep dive into are we falling prey into some of these but for a lot of us listening our concern is for our kids and so the mama and dads and the grandpas and grandmas listening are like hey I'm listening today because I have a child or a grandchild that's really struggling and I want to know how to help and so

an encouraging story that just has meant so much to me. So years ago, I've been on staff with Josh McDowell Ministry over 25 years. And part of that was watching Josh and Dottie raise their four children. And Sean, their son, went to college and raised in this amazing home with this global nephologist for a dad and deeply close family. And Sean came back from college.

and said, Dad, we need to talk. And my favorite part of the story is when Sean and Josh tell it together on stage. And they did that for, I've seen them do this repeatedly. But Sean came back and he goes, I'm so nervous. I'm telling my dad, who is Josh McDowell, that I'm struggling with doubt. And he said, hey, Dad, can we talk? And he goes, I don't know how to tell you this, but I don't think I believe.

And I will never, ever forget Josh's answer. He looked him in the eye and he said, son, I am so proud of you. And at this point, if you can tell Josh and Sean, them the story together, Sean goes, dad, did you hear what I said? And Josh said, yeah, I did. And I know how difficult that must've been for you to tell me. And son, I love you and I am for you and I will always love you.

Thank you for being honest for where you are. I face this myself, and I love that you're being honest and open. Follow the evidence where it leads, because I know where it led for me, and I know what truth is. But lean in, be intellectually honest. What do you need from me? Follow the truth. I know exactly where it'll take you. It'll take you to the cross. And giving Sean the permission to

move forward to lean in with honesty, intellectual honesty, emotional honesty, like you said, Austin, and lean in and follow, son, how can I support you in this journey? Let me know. And I watch as Josh and Sean say this and that crowd goes like eerie silence because as a parent or grandparent, we're scared to death of this conversation instead of saying, honey,

I'm so proud of you. Thanks for being honest. I know that was really hard to say, Hey, can I help you? Where exactly are you struggling? Hey, can I join you on this journey? And can we lean in together? Because I know who our God is. And so giving them confidence and giving them an ability to lean in. And I know that makes some of you out there listening to this very nervous.

It's like, could I do that? Can I say that? And Austin, you're holding your precious baby and you are praying over that child, that that child comes to know Jesus at an early age and sees him for who he is. And so let's talk just a few minutes for encouragement for those who are shepherding someone through doubts. Any advice for us,

Austin Fruits (26:31)
Yeah, I often think of like, how did Jesus respond to people when they doubted? And I think this gives us a really interesting, I mean, we always side on the side of Jesus. I think of like, yeah, with the story of John the Baptist is one that's really, really struck me. And near the end of John the Baptist's life, he's thrown in prison.

Shelley Komoszewski (26:38)
Mmm.

Spoiler alert.

Brock Anderson (26:47)
Okay.

Austin Fruits (26:56)
And when things get really, really difficult and life doesn't go the way he expects, he begins to question his faith. And he sends some friends to Jesus to ask like, Lord, like Jesus, are you the one who is to come or should we be waiting for someone else? And Jesus doesn't respond by like getting angry and shunning his questions or saying like, you should know you spent all this time with me. He just calmly says like to his friends, go tell John,

He says, go back and report to John what you hear and see. The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised and good news is preached to the poor. What Jesus offers that we can offer to other people is mercy and evidence. It's other people's testimony of like, this is what happened. And...

I think a lot of parents are like, I don't know how to answer questions. That's why we're here as a ministry. That's why we provide resources is to say like, okay, what questions are they asking? And let's equip you with the resources to handle those questions, the difficult questions of today. But one of the framing things that I thought of is I want to find not just what is true, but also what is satisfying.

Shelley Komoszewski (27:47)
Hmm.

Austin Fruits (28:07)
And I think that's something really, really important to talk about. There's a podcast that's been blowing up this past week. Wes Huff is a prominent apologist who was on the Andrew Schultz podcast and fascinating, very long conversation. It over three hours, I think. But I mean, Wes did an incredible job. But near the end of the conversation, Wes is explaining the gospel and they're talking like about

God's justice and why, like, can we be moral without God and why do we need salvation and why should we follow God? And Andrew Schultz has this really, really interesting moment where he's like, I understand it, but like, why? And I think what Andrew's saying is like, make this make not just like rational sense, but emotional sense. Why do I need this? And there's...

there's a huge difference between wants and needs. And I think when it comes to wants, they're basically like, a want is something that can improve your life, where a need is something necessary to live. And helping kids understand this, like true and satisfying. The big thing is like, is Christianity satisfying? Is it desirable? Do I actually want this?

And to want something is to want Jesus to be a part of your life, to help you become better. That's not what Christ calls us to. I think we start in that direction of saying like, this is why Christianity is good. This is why it's desirable. This is why it can meet your longings for identity and meaning and purpose. It's hope and meaning that surpasses or can help us face suffering well. Hope for a future. Like it's deeply desirable.

But what comes with this desirability is not just do I want this, but do I actually need this? That's a different question where you're coming face to face with the reality of like, I am a broken person who can't do good on his own and I need Jesus. I need him as the payment for my sin and my brokenness. And that's something that I think needs to be talked about. So like we can help you with the intellectual questions, but the encouraging...

that I would give to parents is what a privilege to be in someone's life when they ask questions. I think one of the most beautiful things about how God operates in the world is that he uses us. Like what a privilege if you're being brought into a conversation where someone's asking questions, it is a privilege to be able to, hey, let's lean in this together. And I may not have the answers, but I'm gonna discover alongside you what is true.

Shelley Komoszewski (30:38)
Yes,

yes.

Austin Fruits (30:39)
I mean, what

an awesome experience to deepen both of your faiths and trust in God. Like that's something that it might be scary because you don't have the answer. Let me tell you, answers are out there. For 2000 years, people have wrestled with difficult questions and there are believers with strong convictions that Christianity is true. Let's make it desirable. Let's say we need this in our lives. It satisfies. That's my encouragement to someone.

Shelley Komoszewski (31:04)
I love that. Well, we get to this part in our podcast where we do a little practical applications. And so you have been putting together a course on disarming doubts. And in it, you talk about a mirror, a map, and a mystery. So help us unpack this and give us some practical takeaways.

Austin Fruits (31:24)
So in my story, I began to see these three things pop up over and over again. First of all, and this is the kind of what I guide people through in the course, is I found mirrors. And that was, I found in scripture stories that mirrored my own, something like Thomas, who had walked with Jesus, I had some faith growing up, and all of a sudden he found himself questioning, and then Jesus shows up. Like I found mirrors.

where people had questions in scripture and they questioned and they doubted. And I also found mirrors in stories throughout history of other people questioning their faith, having questions that I had. Like my story was reflected in so many other people's stories. I also found maps where I found good guides. Like I said, for 2000 years people have wrestled with questions. And I found really, really smart people who...

came up with some brilliant answers to questions like God's existence and pain and suffering and church hurt and like God's goodness and what he can do. I found maps to be like, people have walked through this before. I'm gonna follow where they, their trains of thoughts and where they led. And then in the end, like I found mystery, which was really unexpected for me, but beautiful.

Because in the end, we don't come face to face with ideas. We come face to face with the good personal God of the Bible. And like, if we found at the end a God that we could fully understand and rationalize, He would not be God. He would be something totally different. We need a God who is beyond our understanding because that is a God who's in control when things aren't in our lives. And so,

like coming face to face with mystery at the end, but not mystery that like I couldn't handle. It was mystery that I could step into because I knew that I could trust the good personal God of the Bible. So that's what I stepped into and that's what was beautiful.

Shelley Komoszewski (33:19)
a mirror, a map, and a mystery.

Brock Anderson (33:21)
They're map and a mystery. Yeah, that's a beautiful illustration of, I think, we all face. when that course is released, which isn't too far away in the future, it'll be instrumental for helping people think about how to walk through and, as the course is titled, to disarm those doubts. And that's really...

Shelley Komoszewski (33:23)
fantastic.

Ooh, teaser.

Brock Anderson (33:45)
That's really helpful. And so we think about just some final takeaways here. I think one of the things that we see is doubt is not something that's unique to anybody who's listening to this or watching this. That's an important takeaway is that doubt is not unique to you. Doubt, you're not alone in that. And it's something that we all face.

from from time to time and in different in different areas as of our faith and especially as situations change in our life and we have we face different challenges and So that's that's a great important reminder that the only the only entity that wants you to be alone on an island or Feel like you're alone on the island. the only one dealing with this the only entity that would seek to

tempt you to that belief or accuse you of being in the wrong with doubts or seek to lie to you that you are alone in this would be Satan himself, or demonic realm itself that would seek to get you alone and isolated so that you are pulled out of community and you are in this belief that if I doubt, I better stay silent and just figure it out on my own.

That puts you in a really dangerous, harmful place. So that's a first takeaway that I is really important that if you are struggling with doubts, open up to those that you are in community and fellowship with and bring those outs into the open of those whom God has surrounded you with that are his people. And to the pastor that you trust, to the parent that loves you dearly, to the peer group.

Shelley Komoszewski (35:09)
Yes.

Brock Anderson (35:22)
that seeks to minister to you, but do not sit and allow this to fester a row because then doubt eventually turns into deception, which begins pulling you into a dark place. And so that, yes, and then bitterness, yes, and that pulls you to a place that no one wants to be.

Shelley Komoszewski (35:35)
and bitterness.

Brock Anderson (35:41)
we had in our notes that we were talking about to be curious and not afraid. And I love that takeaway. That's why I brought it up because I think one of you would be like, that was me, I did that and I didn't know who put it on there. So Shelley talk about what means by be curious, not afraid.

Shelley Komoszewski (35:48)
I wanted to do that one.

Now be curious and not afraid. If you're wrestling with some doubts, be open and honest about it. Be curious, there are answers. And our ministry is here to help and so are others. The other thing is be honest with your savior. Run to Jesus with your doubts, he can handle them. And Austin, I love how you brought that up. How did Jesus handle doubts throughout scripture? He didn't condemn, he said, come and see.

Come and see, come examine the nails in my hands. Come and see, come to me. There's an intimacy there. And so make sure Jesus is the one you're running to with your doubts, your anger, your disillusionment, and be honest with your community around you. Thanks, Brock, for saying that. But be curious. Don't be afraid of doubts. Grandpa and grandma, mama and daddy, lean in. Walk the journey with someone. It is a beautiful opportunity for deep discipleship.

Brock Anderson (36:52)
Yeah, and that's part of the part that I wanted to tag in on as we wind this to a close is how doubt can lead to deeper discipleship, both with being discipled by other people as you share, and they begin sharing the things that they've had doubts about, and they begin ministering to you and discipling you, and that's amazing. I we're always, as Christians, we're always looking, who can I disciple and who am I being discipled by? There should be answers to both of those as we mature in our faith.

But there's also a part of discipleship that comes through just having those doubts and leaning into the word of God. And the Holy Spirit is discipling me and helping me understand deeper truths about the word. This is how we grow. And I remember the first witnessing encounter I ever had was with a Mormon bishop. And not a Mormon elder, those are the guys that come to your door. The Mormon bishop, the guy a couple levels up.

and him telling me about the Dead Sea Scrolls and how they were false. And I was like, I don't even know what the Dead Sea Scrolls are. And it's like, so I'm not sure what you're talking about, but here's what's true about Jesus. And he just kind of went on and on, but it's so doubt in my mind of just like, has the Bible been corrupted over time? there these problems? And instead of just allowing that to fester, I went and started reading about the Dead Sea Scrolls and I began studying textual criticism.

And a few months later, I'm back and talking to him. It's like, hey, did you know that what you said was completely wrong? Because I see here the things that you said were wrong in Scripture and that were where there were errors and parts that contradicted one another. That's not true at all. And I have good answers for that.

And so it led to this incredible opportunity to be not just discipled by others, but also discipled by the Holy Spirit through His Word, things that have been carried over into all the evangelistic encounters that happened afterward, which is to, as we go on that journey, we just become more encouraged and more emboldened to share our faith. And that just becomes part of that excitement.

Shelley Komoszewski (38:48)
live it boldly. I love

that. Well, our time unfortunately is over. I could talk about this for another hour or two, but we are not pulling whatever one you referenced earlier, Austin, about a three hour podcast. Not today anyway. So thanks so much for joining in when faith feels fragile, a conversation about doubt and Austin Fruit was our special guest and we love to have me on here. Thanks, Austin.

Austin Fruits (39:13)
It's good to be here. Thanks for having me.

Brock Anderson (39:13)
Yes.

Thank you, Austin. And so next month, we're going to be taking a look at Gen Z in particular. And we have a great guest on that podcast, but our topic is going to be on purpose and for purpose, engaging Gen Z. Our guest is going to be from Young Life, and she is the next generation expert at Young Life. Shelly and I heard her speak recently at an event, she'll us away with the amount of reach that we'll see.

Shelley Komoszewski (39:27)
Ooh.

Blew us away.

Brock Anderson (39:42)
And just the wonderful comments that she made, one of my favorite quotes is, well, here's what you're getting wrong about Gen Z. Here's what you think and your perception of Gen Z, and here's what they actually think and how these are two very different paths. And we got to get you all on the right path if you're going to connect with this generation. Incredibly powerful. Can't wait to talk with our names, Tanita Maddox. And so we'll be excited to have her on and talk about.

Shelley Komoszewski (39:50)
Yes.

Brock Anderson (40:06)
on purpose and for purpose and how to engage with Gen Z and talk to them about faith. And so as always, subscribe and share and join us from as we have our future podcasts and talk about these wonderful things.

Shelley Komoszewski (40:10)
Ooh, it's gonna be fun.

Yes.

Brock Anderson (40:24)
Goodbye.

I'll just...