A Better Approach to Evangelism (with Doug Pollock)

The distorted view of justice in our culture has greatly impacted how we share the gospel with others - and not in a good way. Culture's view of justice is really about "just us." It is me-focused and has retribution at its center, which translates to a power play evangelistic method that is far from winsome. However, biblical justice is interwoven with themes of mercy, reconciliation and a desire for those justly separated from God to be justified by Him. It leads to the kind of evangelism that is slow to speak, quick to listen and results in conversations that are a joy for everyone involved.

Veteran evangelist Doug Pollock joins us for a must-listen episode on how to have better evangelistic discussions through a correct view of justice that sees people as God sees them. Doug is author of God Space, a phenomenal resource on evangelism and is an evangelism trainer for Athletes in Action, a Cru ministry. 

Resources:

God Space by Doug Pollock

The Jesus Test (free download)

Chapters

• 0:00 Rethinking Evangelism: A New Approach
• 4:06 The Journey of a Recovering Evangelist
• 11:46 Modeling Healthy Spiritual Conversations
• 18:14 The Impact of Listening in Conversations
• 21:38 The Importance of Motivation in Conversations
• 23:51 Understanding the 'Not Yet Christian'
• 26:57 The Jesus Test: Evaluating Our Conversations
• 32:48 Practical Applications for Engaging Conversations

Transcript

Shelley Komoszewski (00:01)
So what if the way we're defending our faith is actually pushing people away?

Brock Anderson (00:08)
And we care about sharing the gospel because we care deeply about truth and we care about justice. We believe people are justly separated from God and we desire to see them justified by God. But what happens when our passion for justice becomes misplaced?

Shelley Komoszewski (00:25)
Today we're talking with someone who has flipped the script on how we approach spiritual conversations.

Brock Anderson (00:33)
You're listening to the In and For podcast where we talk about what it looks like to be In and For Christ and In and For culture. And here's the important part for its ultimate good, which is pointing people back to the essential truths of Christianity.

Shelley Komoszewski (00:46)
Today's conversation hits home for a lot of us, especially those who want to share their faith well, but sometimes it feels like we're doing more harm than good. Today we're talking about justice, not in the cultural buzzword sense. Brock, help us explain.

Brock Anderson (01:04)
Yeah, you know, there's two understandings of justice in the world today. And here's what's true about that. There's a cultural understanding of justice and there's a biblical understanding of justice. And we're to talk about that in the context of evangelism with Doug Pollock we have on the podcast with us today. And we're going to get to that in just a minute. But let me unpack a little bit of what that means. Our cultural understanding of justice can be unpacked with a phrase of just us. It's about me.

Shelley Komoszewski (01:31)
Just

Brock Anderson (01:32)
And so when I think about the

cultural understanding of justice, I think about fairness according to me. Is it fair for me? Is it fair to me? I think about retribution. Are people getting what they deserve when they do something wrong to me? And I think about activism. Are people standing up for the things that I care about? I'm really thinking about is that right or is that wrong by any moral standard? think are people standing up for the things that I care most about? And I care about being right. I want to be affirmed.

the things that I believe and I want people to tell me that that I'm right. This is the idea of cultural justice and it's very and wildly different than this idea of biblical justice which has themes of restoration, it themes of mercy, it has themes of humility, and most importantly it's about being made right through God. Very different than what we have for an understanding of cultural justice.

Shelley Komoszewski (02:26)
think we could say that in the Bible, justice isn't about being right, it's about making things right. And nobody did that better than Jesus.

Brock Anderson (02:36)
And that leads us to the guest that we have on the day. It's Doug Pollack, who's a speaker and a trainer with Athletes in Action, wrote an incredible book called God Space, which is updated in 2025. And just a fantastic book for having conversations with people, meeting them where God is already meeting them and having those conversations. so Doug, we're just, we're thrilled to have you on today and glad that you could join us.

Shelley Komoszewski (02:40)
Woohoo!

Doug Pollock (03:00)
Well, I hope you guys can say it after I finish. Great to be with you.

Shelley Komoszewski (03:04)
So do we.

Brock Anderson (03:08)
Well, we've had the privilege of already talking with you a couple of times, so we already know that we're going to be thankful for the time that we have with you as we know our audience will be as well. One of the things that I love about how you've talked to us before, Doug, is that you've called yourself a recovering evangelist, which instantly made us lean in and want to hear more about your story and what it means to be a recovering evangelist.

And I know we'll get into that a little bit more as we move on through the podcast, but that's just something that I think is ⁓ that story, I think is just gonna just make a lot of people wanna lean in and hear more about what it looks like to have conversations that matter today about the Lord.

Doug Pollock (03:50)
Mm.

Shelley Komoszewski (03:55)
So Doug, before we jump in, let's start here. If biblical justice is not about being right, but making things right, how does that change how we have spiritual conversations?

Doug Pollock (04:07)
Well, I think for me, I've come to a place in my journey where ⁓ I've realized how important it is to start where people are in relationship to God, not where we'd like them to be. If it's just about us, then it's me bringing my truth and presenting my points. And when people disagree, I pull out the crowbar, which is the Bible, and say, but the Bible says,

And I try to move from a position of authority or power to bring people into submission to that. If I'm starting where they are and realize that ultimately everybody's somewhere in relationship to God, it changes everything in terms of conversation, where I start. ⁓ It requires me to listen more. It requires me to ⁓ realize that

God has been at work in their lives before I ever even showed up. And so my real challenge then, if it's not just about me, is to cue into the conversation that maybe God's already been having with them. And that is a ball game changer.

Shelley Komoszewski (05:25)
So good. All right, so, Brock teased it a little bit. What does it mean to be a recovering evangelist?

Doug Pollock (05:34)
Well, ⁓ you know, every body's journey through life, are times when there are defining moments. Something happens that literally tilts the whole equation. And that happened to me. I was actually invited to speak in one of the largest churches in the state of Colorado, flew into Denver. I was catching a ⁓ shuttle over to pick up my rental car.

And as God would have it, there was only one person in the shuttle, a young man who was returning from overseas, an education experience. He's coming home for Thanksgiving and Christmas to spend time with his family. Well, we got to the rental car company. ⁓ It became clear he was quite surprised that while he was overseas, his driver's license had expired. So the rental car company was not giving him a rental car.

I was checking all this out. was hearing all this and I felt the spirit prompt me to offer him a ride because he didn't have a rental car, but I did. And I didn't know where he was going, but I offered him, you know, a ride at least I was going to the Colorado Springs area. And I told him, you know, at least I could get you into Denver. And, and he was so touched by it. said, you would do that for me? And I go, yeah, sure. Jump in. Well, the fun started right away. Cause

This young man jumps in my car and immediately asks me, so what do you do for a living? Now, ⁓ you know, when you're ⁓ an evangelism trainer for athletes in action, that title does not get you invited to a lot of parties. And I decided in the spirit of Colossians 4-5 that if I'm going to be wise towards this outsider, not knowing where he's at in relationship to God,

I'm thinking if I told him I was, you know, an evangelist, he might jump out of the car. You know, he's like, I'm not going to get trapped in this, this car. Who knows what this guy is going to do to me on my way into Denver. So I decided instead to just lead with, you know, true statement. said, I'm an author and speaker. And so right away he didn't miss a beat. What do you, what do you, what do you write about? What do you talk about? And I'm, I.

I know this was God. was just something I had never said before. It was the Spirit just in the moment, boom, giving me something that engaged his heart and mind and got the conversation going in a very natural way. said, well, I'll tell you what, you could actually help me do what I do better. And he said, how could I do that? I said, well, I'm actually going to speak to one of your largest churches in the state.

If I took you along with me and gave you 30 minutes to tell those Christians what not to do to have a God conversation with you, what would you tell them? It was like that question, he had been waiting his whole life to answer that question. Because, I mean, he hit that thing like a shark on tuna and he right away, with a lot of passion, said, you know what I'd tell those Christians? I'd tell those Christians, if you're not gonna listen to me,

Shelley Komoszewski (08:38)
⁓

Mm.

Doug Pollock (08:57)
I'm not going to listen to you." So I stopped and said, wow, it sounds like in your conversations with Christians, it hasn't really gone all that well. And he says, yeah. He goes, I don't know where Christians get off. They just feel like in a conversation, they should do all the talking and I'm just supposed to sit there and listen. And he says, you know what they don't get? I said, no, I'd love to hear.

He said, the whole time they're talking, I've already made up my mind. I don't want to become rude and disrespectful like they are. And so I don't want your Jesus because if your Jesus is going to make me like you, I want no part of that. Now I'm sitting here going down the highway and I'm going.

Shelley Komoszewski (09:33)
Mm.

Wow.

Doug Pollock (09:46)
God is using this guy to save me. Not for eternity. My name was written in the book of life when I trusted Christ my junior in college. But in the sense that as I listen to him, I'm thinking, I've totally done everything he's just talking about. you know, I ⁓ hijacked a conversation, took it over, controlled it, wanted to give them my truth because it was about me and me doing my

as an evangelist and I wasn't really doing any listening. And when I heard him say, you know what they don't get, I'm thinking, this completely makes so much sense. Cause I had had so many conversations where it was one and done. I dumped truck them with, you know, my good news, what I thought was good news for them. And

It just didn't come across like good news. Like they never wanted to see me again on campus. didn't, they didn't say, Hey, let's get together again and talk more about this. Most of the time it was like, thank you. And then it was like, if they saw me, they kind of steered clear of me. ⁓ you know, and I'm thinking, what are you saying really has some merit and, ⁓ it, it, God used it to, to start, ⁓

me on a journey and realizing that while my heart and my intentions were good to bring people into a relationship with Christ, maybe some of the ways I was doing that were putting, you know, people were off putting. so that, know, and ironically, on the rest of the way in to Denver, I actually ended up dropping him off at the Rockies Stadium downtown. I did exactly

⁓ what he told me to do. I just followed his cues because I followed that question up with this question. Well, it sounds like all your conversations were negative with Christians. Did you ever have just one that you would call positive? He said, I've only ever had one. Pay attention folks. This is huge. He said, and I said, what made it different? He said, well first of all,

I knew they were listening to me. I said, how do you know they were listening? Maybe they were just nodding their head and doing the thing that people often do. Uh-huh. Okay. Uh-huh. You know, and just kind of playing along. He said, I knew they were listening because they asked me questions that showed me they were thinking about the things I was actually saying and they cared about what I said. And I'm like, wow. So, ⁓ on the rest of the trip in, I just asking questions.

And listen, the very things that he, you know, he had kind of queued me up to do. And in a matter of 30 minutes, the thing, the conversation boomeranged and he started asking me about my God's story. And because I had taken the focus off of myself and put it on him, now he was asking me the very things that I wanted to share with him right from the beginning. And here's what he said when I let him out that day.

He said, I want to tell you something, man. He goes, this is the best conversation I've ever had with a Christian. And I thought, wow. You know, that question that I asked him and he so eloquently answered, and God's spirit working on me, know, here God was saving me in a sense through this conversation. So that's kind of where it all started. And then a whole bunch of other things happened.

Shelley Komoszewski (13:05)
Aww.

Hmm.

Doug Pollock (13:28)
that led me to write the book. ⁓ In chapter 2, I talk about 10 spiritual conversation killers, which I got in touch with. I frequently practiced ⁓ and was just unaware of how I was coming across. I was blind to those things.

Shelley Komoszewski (13:46)
So good.

Brock Anderson (13:47)
Yeah,

I think that's so unorthodox for a lot of Christians. know listening when it comes to how we think about evangelism and encountering conversations of just even the word evangelism, well, that means that I have a set of specific things that I need to say, and then after I say them, I have now completed the task of evangelism and can check the box.

Shelley Komoszewski (13:51)
Mm-hmm.

Doug Pollock (14:07)
Yeah.

Brock Anderson (14:13)
And how that person responds is how that person responds, but that that's what that is and it's very different than The two things that that I hope listeners are there's two takeaways there. It's it's listening with intent and and asking questions with with authenticity your authentically your authentic desire is to actually know this person somebody who has intrinsic value Because they're created in the image of God They're not an object and and not a goal

Shelley Komoszewski (14:26)
Yes.

Yes.

Brock Anderson (14:41)
but an actual person who's worth getting to know. And so when you do listen and when you ask those questions to follow up on what you're hearing, ⁓ then the conversation moves forward very naturally. you have what Doug talks about in this great book, you have God space face that opens up where you have the opportunity to engage with them. ⁓

I wanted to talk briefly about, you we talk about things that are unorthodox. You shared a story with us a few weeks ago when you went into an event overseas and had 2,500 people in the room and you did something pretty unorthodox for an event like that. And I wanted you to walk through the listeners, what that was that you did that I think probably caught a lot of people off guard, but I think ended up being an incredible, incredibly powerful story.

that I definitely want people to hear about here.

Doug Pollock (15:34)
Well, let me set up the why behind why I did what I did that day. One of the challenges I face in helping God's people turn outward in an inwardly focused world and really truly engage people's hearts and minds the way Jesus did is I've come to realize that very few people have ever seen a healthy spiritual conversation. And so as a result, a lot of people just

They live in a vacuum. They don't have a model for that. ⁓ they have models for people who, you know, street preachers are yelling, scream people and tell them they're going to hell. And everybody's saying, if that's what it is, I want no part of it. So I thought, you know, I can't take, you know, I can't, you know, I couldn't have a whole room of 2,500 people in the car with me that day in Colorado to watch this conversation. have this young man. All I could do is tell the story.

So I thought, well, what if I invited a couple of atheists on stage and just to model the very things we've been talking about. And I found a couple of atheists who were more than willing ⁓ to kind of switch the roles instead of Daniel and the lion's den. He's the atheist and the Christian den, so to speak.

Shelley Komoszewski (16:55)
⁓

Doug Pollock (16:59)
And when they came to me, when they heard about ⁓ what was going on at the conference and the fact that there were a couple of well-known apologists there, ⁓ they asked me if I could do them a favor. And I said, sure, whatever you guys want. If it's within reason, I'll see if I can make it happen. They said, well, we know both of the gentlemen who are going to be speaking at this conference. And ⁓ we would love it if we could just sit in.

and hear what they have to say. We've listened to them, you know, on the internet, et cetera, and we would think that would be really great. And I said, absolutely, make that happen. So I was just so curious as to how they would receive the experience and what their impressions were afterwards. And ⁓ I sat in the room, I listened to both of them as well. And afterwards I said, well, guys,

⁓ you know, honestly, I really just count it a privilege to hear your honest, you know, gut level visceral response to both of those gentlemen. And, ⁓ they, they both without ever consulting each other, they both said, well, huh, Doug, if I'm really going to be real, I just got to say, if I had the chance, I'd punch the one guy right in the face.

I'm like, wow. And I totally got that because of the way he talked about not yet Christians. You know, as you know, people with depraved minds and, you know, talked about him in ways that were very, ⁓ I think, demeaning and maybe lost sight of the value of God's creation and his image in them and the fact that he made them.

And I think more than anything, just ⁓ maybe an overemphasis on being right instead of having a compassionate response. And so they were mad. They were angry. And honestly, I stepped in and say, I want to apologize because quite honestly, I sat in there and while I was listening to it, I wanted to stand up and go, sir.

Shelley Komoszewski (19:11)
No.

Doug Pollock (19:24)
These are people that Jesus misses. He longs to be in a right relationship with them. And the kind of attitude and vibe you're giving off right now is so off-putting. I'm thinking, I think a lot of people had that ⁓ kind of takeaway. And then to the other guy, they said, you know what? It was so refreshing to hear him talk.

We would love to go out and have a beer with him and just sit and talk about God. And I'm like, wow, isn't that the kind of response we want? You know, kind of this winsome idea that we get in the Bible of being winsome, shining like stars. And the way we do the conversation is in itself is a magnetic pull. And I realized something that I think is so huge when it comes to apologetics.

You know, it's very clear the Bible tells us we need to be ready to give an answer for the hope that we have to anyone who asks us. But how we do that is huge. And I think what they were saying that day, and I think this is to he or she who has ears to hear, this is what our takeaway should be. Hey, people often remember how we do the conversation and the tone and the kind of attitudes of our heart.

Shelley Komoszewski (20:44)
Mm.

Doug Pollock (20:48)
They kind of leak out in the conversation. They'll remember those much longer than the truths that we think we just have to hammer them with. And part of my recovery, ⁓ honestly, is having to take a long hard look at my own life and realize that as someone who really, really, really loved apologetics, loved spiritual cage fights, loved, you know, as a guy who

Shelley Komoszewski (21:15)
You

Peace.

Doug Pollock (21:18)
came from an athletic background, know,

put me in the ring. I mean, I love that. It's kind of like game time. Let's go at it. And I pride myself, you know, feeling like it didn't matter who it was when they got done. I could walk away and feel like I just gave them a worldview beat down. Like I had won and they had lost. And as I look back on that, I realized, no, I lost. I lost in the sense that,

I wasn't representing the Spirit of the Kingdom in the way that Jesus said as he looked upon the sheep without a shepherd, said, you know, he had compassion on them. His heart was broken for them. And I began to realize that I need to have a total overhaul in my heart that ⁓ the vibe I give off needs to be a Jesus vibe. It needs to be a Kingdom vibe. And then what the Holy Spirit did graciously.

is he helped me get in touch with why I was doing what I was doing. I grew up in a family. I was the oldest in the family. And in our family, we were all strong-minded. And when we had arguments, we just raised our voice louder and yelled at each other because, no, I'm right. And so...

What would happen is we'd have these immovable forces that would come at each other like this Neither side listen and we walked away. Nothing had really changed And I realized that when I became a Christian now I subtly Felt superior like I was really right and now I was talking down to my family members Because you know in the past like a good lawyer when I was in one of these

Shelley Komoszewski (23:03)
you

Doug Pollock (23:12)
know, worldview clashes, an us-them showdown, so to speak. ⁓ The whole focus was for me to win. And we even use language like that, right? I mean, we say, ⁓ I won so-and-so to Christ. And I'm like, well, I hope not, because if you won him to Christ, it's not gonna take. I mean, I thought God was the one who actually...

Shelley Komoszewski (23:27)
Right.

Hmm.

Doug Pollock (23:39)
John 1 12 is that we're born from above and that's his work if it's gonna last and it's gonna stick and I realized that in a lot of ways I was like a lawyer in the courtroom. What I was doing is I was listening so that I could hear something to prepare my argument to show them why they were wrong and I was right and the reason I was doing all this is because in my family system

We never listened to each other. We never had respectful conversations. It was just this kind of, I'm right and you're wrong. And I mean, we see what that gets us in Washington, DC, right? I mean, where does that take us? When people are divided and are polarized, people just walk away from those conversations and they're more convinced, you know, that the other person's whacked and jacked and they're right and they're wrong. And I just...

thought, these two guys really put their finger on that that day. at that point, I realized, man, God, please help me. ⁓ Dallas Willard once said, it's very difficult to be right about something without hurting people with it. And I thought, wow, that's not where I want to live.

And I need to realize that some of this is due to my baggage in my family.

Brock Anderson (25:09)
That's a, so a lot of what you said there, I think is incredibly powerful. And I think particularly a lot of the imagery you used and words you used to bring us back to that kind of entry theme we had around justice. You talk about a lawyer and the legal system, and you talked about the truth that we use to hammer things in. And it becomes that viewpoint of again,

I want to be right and it comes back to that whole just us thing. It's just about me and it's about what I view as right and if I come across as right and dominant and winning the legal battle, then I have won and we just often forget and especially when it comes to spiritual conversations, we can win an argument and lose an incredible opportunity to move somebody forward and move them one step closer to knowing who Jesus is.

Doug Pollock (25:36)
us.

Yes.

Yeah.

Brock Anderson (25:59)
And that's a, that's, that's an incredible takeaway. I know for, for those, for those, those listening, ⁓ I think the other thing here outside of the justice Diane is just, it's just the reminder of that, that, our motivation for, for why we're having conversations with people matters a lot. If my motivation is to make somebody feel inferior, ⁓ because they need to feel the, the, the weight of how terrible they are.

But I don't see that about myself. I'm not a sinner in need of grace. I'm not a beggar looking for bread like we've heard in that that great Analogy for evangelism one beggar helping another find bread if I don't view myself as that but if I view myself as superior Then I put myself in a really hard position for when it comes to having a winsome conversation because I'm always going to have a motivation of You need to be better than you are. But what that means is you need to be like me

Doug Pollock (26:37)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Shelley Komoszewski (26:53)
Hmm.

Brock Anderson (26:56)
and instead of the motivation of, I need to show you where I found life. So you can find life too, because it's abundant life and it's forever transformed me and I so desire for you to experience that transformation. But let me walk with you to that together as opposed to that, again, that posture and that gesture of dominance. And so, yeah, what an incredible story. And I think that

Doug Pollock (26:58)
Yeah.

Shelley Komoszewski (27:02)
Well.

Doug Pollock (27:03)
Right.

Brock Anderson (27:25)
the two responses that you got there are just illustrative of you want to be the other guy. You want to be the guy that when someone when someone you get done having a conversation with somebody they want to talk to you again and they want to be like hey that was a really good conversation. I've never had a conversation like that before. I've always heard don't talk about religion don't talk about politics but I actually do want to talk about God when I talk to you and that's what a great what a great place to be. So thank you for sharing.

Shelley Komoszewski (27:32)
Right.

Doug Pollock (27:46)
Right. Yeah.

Shelley Komoszewski (27:52)
Yeah.

Doug, you are such a good storyteller. of the themes, one of the terms that stuck out is you said twice, not yet Christians. That's such a fun term and in how we view people. The other phrase that you've said a couple of times that I just love so much, joining the conversation that God is already having with someone. So take and connect that sentence to your book.

Doug Pollock (28:15)
Mm-hmm.

Shelley Komoszewski (28:20)
Just give us a quick overview of how those two connect.

Doug Pollock (28:25)
Well, I mean, the word lost is obviously used in the Bible, but I think in some ways the meaning of lost, of the way Jesus felt when, you know, he was talking about lostness, that has been lost in the transmission from century to century. And so many people today, ⁓ so-and-so, he's so lost.

Kind of like with the disgust, you know, like there's no hope for him. And I've heard people say that about certain people. You know, he's so lost. I think ⁓ the word missing is, know, isn't that the story of, you know, the shepherd who goes after the one? His heart's broken for the one and he leaves the sheep.

Shelley Komoszewski (29:09)
Mmm.

Doug Pollock (29:23)
to go find the one because they're missing from the place where they should be. And I think that sense of compassion, and let me just say, I mean, I hear this all the time from not yet Christians. And the word not yet, so it's kind of posturing our heart attitude instead of saying, so and so, so lost, it's more of a hopeful language of not yet.

As far as we know, not yet. They haven't called upon the name of the Lord, but I'm hopeful that... I never hear not yet Christians say, you know what drives me really crazy about Christians? It's their compassion. I never hear that. But I hear not yet Christians all the time saying, I'm so sick and tired of judgmental Christians. And it's kind of ironic because...

the Bible and Jesus, you know, so said I did not come to judge the world if Jesus didn't come to judge the world, but he came to save it. Where do we be, you know, if you would line up to become junior Holy Spirit, you know, and like feel like it's our need to step in and judge people and tell them what they're doing is wrong. mean, the Holy Spirit says he will convict people of sin, righteousness and judgment. And I think when we cross over the line,

and start getting, and start, get out of our lane, that's when we get in trouble and we leave people with wrong impressions. So I think language, you know, I'm not into semantics, but I do think the posture of our heart, words do matter and sometimes they shape us and we haven't thought about it. And if we are, you know, you know, ⁓ Christian communities, there's certain lingo that just...

Nobody even thinks about it. They use the words mindlessly. They parrot them because they grew up with them. They heard them every Sunday. Their pastors use them. And subtly, what creeps in is a blindness to how that word to an outsider sounds and the vibe it gives off. So, you know, that's kind of the back story on, you know, why, why, yeah.

Shelley Komoszewski (31:40)
So good. So good.

It's a great term.

Brock Anderson (31:49)
That's really like every story you tell, even the back stories you tell ⁓ just have such great meaning and value to them. I just got lost there for a second just thinking of all the different ways that ⁓ I can apply that in my own life. But jumping back in, ⁓ one of the things that you have in your book that I think is incredibly helpful and I know is certainly

Shelley Komoszewski (31:53)
More!

they

Brock Anderson (32:15)
been helpful to many people who've encountered your book is this Jesus test that we're actually going link to in the notes of the podcast. so check out the show notes and you'll see a link to that as well. But these 10 questions that help us evaluate if we're really creating space for God in our conversations. And one of the things I was hoping to do is just for you to kind of walk through a couple of those things, of those questions.

Doug Pollock (32:44)
Sure.

Brock Anderson (32:44)
for people to kind of think through, just to give a little bit of a flavor of these are the kinds of things to think about ⁓ as a little bit of a barometer of am I setting the stage for the right kinds of things to happen in this conversation, which makes what we're talking about today incredibly practical.

Doug Pollock (32:57)
Hmm. Yeah.

Shelley Komoszewski (32:59)
That's good.

Doug Pollock (33:06)
Let's go for that. You got one in particular that you've.

Brock Anderson (33:09)
Oh,

yeah. Yeah. mean, the first one that I mean, I have it right in front of me. So the first one that I think about here is that I think is a great one to lead it off is, are you willing to overlook attitudes and lifestyles that offend you in order to befriend not yet Christians?

Doug Pollock (33:26)
Yeah, that's... I think so many of us, and I found myself doing it at times, we're offended by the language. We're offended by the jokes that have sexual overtones. We're offended by the lifestyles. Whatever that may be, whatever the things that push your buttons. And so what happens is if we react to that stuff, whether it be in our job, you know...

space or in our neighborhood space or in our family space. I mean, we're pretty much sending a message. Hey, until you clean your life up, you disgust me and I really don't want to hang out with you. I find it fascinating that, you know, and I do believe that if you study the scriptures carefully, the thing that set Jesus literally apart from all the religious leaders of his day and the thing that offended their sensibilities.

is that this title they gave him, A Friend of Sinners, and I'm like, wow. What made him, what made them call him that? And what did he do or not do? What's created that? And the whole 10 questions, the Jesus test, are intended to get people to look at, in this day and age, what would it look like for you and I to be called a friend of sinners like Jesus?

I look at Jesus and I mean, here he is, he's hanging out with prostitutes, drunkards, gluttonous, you know, we could go on the list, you know, and that ⁓ the Pharisees who were big on, hey, if you're holiness is all about literally separating yourselves from that which is unclean. So they were always moving away from

people that God loved, people that God missed, the lost sheep. Jesus, on the other hand, was always moving towards those people. And I think, you know, part of the rub today is that when I hear people talk about why they've chucked church and said, thanks, or why they want nothing to do with going to church or being around, is because what they've encountered were Pharisees. They've encountered that...

Shelley Komoszewski (35:24)
Thank

So good

Hmm.

Doug Pollock (35:51)
that spirit of, you know, like, listen, man, you do a bunch of stuff to disgust me and you get yourself cleaned up, then, hey, you'll be welcomed here. And it's like, I mean, we all put out a lot of churches put out the sign, you know, come as you are. Well, I think people.

Shelley Komoszewski (36:10)
with an asterisk

and fine print.

Doug Pollock (36:12)
Absolutely and a quick story just that exemplifies this. We had a Matthews party here in ⁓ my neighborhood, a Matthews party. Hey, we just invited anybody, everybody. We didn't know who would come. We didn't know, you know, we just wanted to meet people in our neighborhood. So. ⁓

Brock Anderson (36:12)
Yeah.

Doug Pollock (36:35)
the local pastor came, which was cool. And a ⁓ couple of ladies who had a relationship with each other and were living ⁓ in a lifestyle that most Christians would say,

We just don't condone such a thing. And so they were here and we were having conversation, having a good time. And here's what happened. And it was a perfect example of what we're talking about right now. The pastor on the way out of the party said, ⁓ hey, if you ever want to talk sometime, why don't you come down to the church and have a cup of coffee with me? Or why don't you just come to church?

And I love the response of both these young ladies. They looked at the pastor and said, trust me, you would not want us to show up at your church. And I was like, they're right. If they walked in the door, hand in hand, to the church, the church wouldn't... The looks, the responses, the judgment.

Who knows what comments might be made? They were right. And so, you know, the pastor tried to recover the moment by saying, well, hey, if you ever just want to talk sometime, why don't you come down and have a cup of coffee? And I thought to myself, what would have happened if the pastor instead would have said, hey, so enjoyed meeting you today. ⁓ Sometime I'd love to hang out. You got a favorite coffee shop? I'm buying.

In other words, hey, where are you comfortable? And yeah, exactly. And why is it that we as Christians always want to invite people to our, if you want to say our home game, where our sage is on the stage, our music's being played, our people are there. People don't feel safe often in that environment, at least if we're going to recognize that that's not where they are right now. There might be a day where they feel ready for that, but...

Shelley Komoszewski (38:23)
And I'll join you there.

our turf. Yeah.

Mm.

Doug Pollock (38:51)
A lot of times we want to start by inviting them to church. And for a lot of people, that's a scary thing. But it would have been totally different if the pastor would have said, I'm going to play an away game. I'm willing to go where they want me to go and meet them on their turf, where they're comfortable. And I'm like, that's it right there. But you know, you can't do that. If you you if you don't answer question one, like you just, you know, you ask that question if you miss that one.

It's over before it even starts.

Shelley Komoszewski (39:25)
We are running a little bit short on time, but a couple other questions of these 10 that popped out. I love number six. Do people who are far from God like you? For instance, are you invited to their gatherings and into their conversations? Ooh, that's convicting. Another one that jumped out is, are you patient enough to wait for not yet Christians to ask you for your opinion before you offer it? Ouch. These are so good, Doug.

Doug Pollock (39:28)
Okay.

Yeah.

Shelley Komoszewski (39:55)
And so again, they'll be in our show notes. If you want all 10, did you like, we only tease three of them. So then they have to get it to get the others. That was pretty good. Yeah. So on the other side of this page next to the Jesus test, you have this and I highlighted it is so beautiful. Jesus needs to do something in and through us before he can do something. ⁓ I'm sorry. I've read that wrong. ⁓ Jesus needs to do something in me.

Brock Anderson (40:02)
do have to get it, yeah. Well, it's worth it, yeah.

Shelley Komoszewski (40:23)
before he can do something through me. And I love that what you're trying to capture here, our posture and our readiness to enter God's space. ⁓ And so you said, ⁓ for some practical, doable, authentic ideas of how to practically be a friend of sinner in your day-to-day world. And that's what we're about on the show, practical applications to live our faith boldly and engage the world around us. And so you in this section with a prayer.

Doug Pollock (40:46)
Hmm.

Shelley Komoszewski (40:52)
one sentence and here's our big takeaway today ⁓ listeners here's the prayer lord jesus help me to see the people who will cross my path this day the way you do and then we pay attention to the little nudges from the holy spirit as we walk through our day dog that's so good and so practical and helpful

Brock Anderson (41:17)
Yeah, so, we're an apologetics ministry and an apologetics podcast. And for those that are just like, hey, you guys talk a lot about evangelism for an apologetics podcast. And that's because evangelism is the heartbeat of apologetics because the goal of apologetics is always and only the gospel. It's to remove barriers to the gospel and it's to surround the gospel with good reasons to believe. But that happens.

Doug Pollock (41:17)
Well, thank you for your encouragement.

Shelley Komoszewski (41:29)
you

Mmm.

Ooh.

Brock Anderson (41:47)
through the point of this being to introduce people to who Jesus is and to move them one step closer to Jesus. And that all starts with having good and winsome spiritual conversations with other people and with what Doug has shared here and what he's shared in his book, God Space. Doug, where can people get God Space?

Doug Pollock (42:09)
Amazon, as you know, it's the best place to go.

Shelley Komoszewski (42:11)
We can get everything.

Brock Anderson (42:12)
Yep.

Yep. You guys might've heard of Amazon. And just I highly, I highly recommend it. It's right up there with, with any other book that you would read on evangelism that would just completely shift the way you actually go out and have conversations the next day. If you sat down, it's a short book. It's easy to get through.

Doug Pollock (42:16)
Hahaha! ⁓

Shelley Komoszewski (42:18)
Alright, alright.

Yes.

Brock Anderson (42:38)
In a day if you read this on on a on a Monday on Tuesday You're going over to your neighbor's house and having a completely different perspective and I would say a completely different experience and how the conversation Goes when you're talking to them because your mindset has shifted to one that looks much more Like that of our Lord and Savior when he's encountering people and that's how God has gifted Doug and that gift that he's given us in that book and just couldn't

recommend it more for you to go out and get and put these principles into practice.

Shelley Komoszewski (43:14)
Doug, you are welcome back anytime. We loved having you on here. We could listen to your stories all day. Thanks for being here.

Brock Anderson (43:22)
Yeah, absolutely.

Doug Pollock (43:22)
Hey, great to hang out with you guys. You were lot of fun.

Brock Anderson (43:25)
And thank you everyone for tuning in and listening or watching. Join us again next month as we talk about the person, nature, and character of God, probably in ways that you haven't quite thought about before that will help you think more deeply about the attributes of God and how to put those into practice in your life.

Shelley Komoszewski (43:40)
Yes.

So good. Until then, stay rooted in and for Christ and in and for the world around you.

Brock Anderson (43:55)
Absolutely.