The "Safe" Jesus vs. The Real Jesus with Josh Newell

“Who do you say that I am?”

It is one of the most significant questions any of us will ever answer. Yet today, the world seems more confused than ever about the response. We have turned Jesus into a "safe" figure: a moral teacher, a social activist, or a wise prophet. We often reshape Him to fit our own comfort zones and cultural narratives. But what happens when we strip away the misconceptions and see Jesus clearly?

In this episode of In & For, we sit down with Josh Newell, Executive Director of the Jesus Film Project. Josh shares incredible insights from a ministry that has reached billions of people in over 2,000 languages. Together, we discuss the global "category crisis" surrounding Jesus and why the "real" Jesus is so much more radical and more hopeful than the "safe" versions we create.

In this conversation, we explore:

• The Global Perspective: Why 3 billion people still have not heard the name of Jesus and the "injustice" of that gap.
• Heart Language and Dignity: How hearing the Gospel in a native tongue (including the first ever Jesus Film for the Deaf) removes barriers to the heart.
• The "Idol Maker" Problem: How our hearts naturally tend to reshape Jesus into something non-threatening.
• Post-Christian Lessons: What the U.S. can learn from the "post-church" culture of France about listening and engaging in spiritual conversations.
• The Next Generation: A first look at the upcoming Animated Jesus Film designed for Gen Alpha and the visual "heart language" of the future.

Practical Next Steps for You:

1. Get Honest: Ask yourself where you have reshaped Jesus to fit your life instead of letting Him reshape you.
2. Start a Conversation: This week, ask one person, "Who do you think Jesus is?" and just listen.
3. Watch the Story: Experience the Gospel of Luke anew at JesusFilm.org/watch.

"The Jesus you believe in is the Jesus you follow." Join us as we cut through the noise to see Him for who He truly is.

Sightline and the Jesus Film Project are both part of the Cru family of ministries. We work together to ensure the world sees Jesus clearly.

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Transcript

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Across the world, across cultures, across religions, people agree on this. Jesus is one of the most influential figures in human history. Yeah, he's recognized, he's respected, even revered, but not agreed upon. Because depending on who you ask, he's a prophet, God's son, a teacher, a moral example, almost everyone seems to have a category for him. But those categories don't match. Yeah, and Jesus didn't leave that question open. He made it personal by asking, who do you say that I am? Welcome to the In & For Podcast where we cut through cultural confusion so you can see Jesus clearly. I'm Shelley Komoszewski. I'm Brock Anderson. We're with Sightline, and today we're stepping into one of the most important questions you'll ever answer. Who is Jesus, really? Because here's what's remarkable. The world doesn't ignore Jesus. It doesn't dismiss Jesus. It talks about Him everywhere. but not in the same way. In Christianity, he's worshiped as God and savior. In Islam, he's honored as a prophet. Buddhist and Hindu perspective recognize him as wise, holy, influential. And even in culture today, people who would never call themselves Christians still admire Jesus, especially his pro-love anti-hypocrisy message. Yeah, the world reshapes him. He becomes safe. He becomes approachable and non-threatening figure. But here's the tension we can't ignore. The world agrees he matters, but the world does not agree on who he is. And that's not a small detail. Because if Jesus is just a teacher, well, that's one kind of response. But if he is exactly who he claimed to be, God himself, well, that changes everything. Yeah, so we brought in someone who has seen this question play out at a scale most of us can't even imagine. Josh Newell is the executive director of Jesus Film Project, a ministry that has shared the story of Jesus in more than 2,000 languages with viewings in the billions. And here's what makes this conversation especially meaningful. Jesus Film and Sightline are both part of the Cru family of ministries. We're not just colleagues or cohorts. We're working the same mission from two different angles. Josh has had a front row seat to how the world understands and misunderstands Jesus and who he is. Josh, we're so glad to have you on him and we'd love for our audience just to hear a little bit about your journey with Jesus Film Project. Well, hey, it's great to be with you and thanks for having me on. And what an important question. Who is Jesus really? So, I mean, it's a real honor to be able to be part of that conversation with you. I started out with Jesus film project right out of college and in the year of our Lord, 1998. I was going to say a few years ago, but it's been more than more than that. At that point, I was a uh college senior and had a plan for my life that didn't involve missions and that all changed when I heard a speaker by the name of Paul Eshman come to a student conference. And Paul talked about the world and our responsibility as Christians to fulfill the great commission in ways that I've really never had heard up until that point. And it all kind of clicked for me. How could I be a part of that grand, you know, mandate from Jesus and Of course, we understand that the Great Commission is to preach the gospel to all nations and baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That's what Jesus, His final words to disciples, and that's been our 2000 year task. And yet the reality is, that there are still lots of places that I've never heard and lots of people that I've never heard, not just to have had an opportunity here. And that was what struck me from Paul's talk as a student all those years ago. And I thought, okay, that's an injustice that I want to be part of the solution in correcting. And, and so I thought, Hey, I'll do that for a year and get on with my regularly scheduled life. And, of course, do the math from here we are in 2026 to those days in 1998. I'm still with the mission because every year being part of that mission has been, even more fulfilling and, uh and awesome than I could have imagined even as a wide-eyed 22 year old back in the day. What the? Yeah, I imagine that your time with Jesus film over the years has taught you something about where people also happen to get Jesus wrong, not just hearing about him or not hearing about him yet. And maybe not even by rejecting him, but by almost getting Jesus right. What do you think are some of the most common ways people reshape Jesus and what do you really see again and again across cultures? I mean, that is an incredible question. And I want to get at that question. I'm going to try to work my way towards an answer based off of what we've seen in Jesus film project over the years. And the reality isn't as apparent as one might think. In other words, there are billions of people on this planet, two billion of us claim to follow Jesus in some way, shape or form. But the reality is that close to 3 billion people have never heard about Jesus, not just have had an opportunity and then rejected Him or have reshaped Him. so starting from that point, how do you close the gap to people who have never heard that seems to be an order of priority? And then getting to your question of once Jesus is proclaimed, do people actually understand who He is? Or do they... in your question, do they reshape Jesus to fit their own narrative? And, you know, as a kid growing up in the church, so to speak, that was certainly true for me. That's what I did. And I think over the course of my life, I've come to recognize that humans, are people of idol makers. so whatever is on the throne of our life, and Jesus makes a claim, that he is Lord and sits on a throne there. And we really should order our life around that. That's the truth. for many of us, before encountering Jesus in that radical kind of way, we've ordered our lives differently and we put other things on the throne. And that can be true even if we've been introduced to the truth. And so I think it's really important to understand that human hearts are fickle. before and after encountering Jesus. And he said as much as he talked about, you know, many of his parables. One that comes to mind is the parable of the sower and the seed and the soils that receive or reject Jesus' teaching. And our hearts are like that. that's so good. So for those of our audience who isn't familiar with the Jesus film, tell us just a little bit about what it is. Yeah. Okay, so when I came into the mission, it was, I was already looking at it as this really old movie that was released in 1979. So that was, you know, back in 1998, it was really old to me. And, but over the course of the 50 years or so that it's been released, the incredible impact that this simple movie has had around the world. And you listed some of the numbers of it being translated into thousands of languages and seen by billions of people. It is absolutely incredible and only God can get the glory for a tool like that. And a lot of the success comes from three things. One is the word of God on film. Secondly, it's been translated into heart languages. It's the most translated movie. in history. And then third, it's in the hands of people like partners. It's not just a mission of Jesus Film Project and we're going to take over the world using this movie. It's actually one of the key missionary tools for so many organizations, churches and individuals because of the simple story of Jesus told from the Gospel of Luke in a biblically accurate way. in a language that people can understand. And so when that happens, when Jesus says that he's lifted up, then all men will come to him and they'll have an encounter and either they'll have a, you know, encounter that changes their lives for good or for bad. It's, it's either or on that. Josh, I love how you talked about when Jesus is lifted high, because we know that that's the Holy Spirit's work. When Jesus is lifted high, the Holy Spirit goes to work on hearts. And so people move from a partial or reshaped view of Jesus to seeing him as scripture portrays him as God himself. What changes in people watching this film? Well, I mean, the short answer is everything changes. Your life changes, your perspective changes, and therefore the things that you do and are known for change as well. And we've seen that over the course of five decades of people's lives being changed and then communities transforming as well. A few years ago, Jesus Film ran a study, actually a foundation that wanted to kind of fact check the stories that we were putting out there. wanted to know, is this thing, is this story really true? And so they went into the survey before and after a Jesus film showing. And so when I say a Jesus film showing, typically what we've done in conjunction with partnership is go to a town, a village, or a remote people group. We bring the story of Jesus on film to the people in their language and give an opportunity to respond and usually in partnership with the local church or a pastor or a preacher is a part of that event. So that there's great discipleship afterward uh after the event itself. It's an evangelism strategy. So the before and after survey went like this. What were the what's the markers of a village in the society? So let's let's take a survey of like how much how many people are getting drunk? How many people are beating their wives? on and on and on about 20 different markers of societal, you know, good and bad. And then let's measure that before and then after a Jesus film showing and see, and just try to estimate life change or societal change as a result. And in every category after the Jesus film came and people, you know, picture thousands of people watching the Jesus film at once, hundreds of people responding. sometimes entire villages responding in some cases. And then what happens? And what happened is that not only did people say that they were following Jesus, but their lives changed. People started to treat each other a lot better. Drunkenness goes down, know, physical abuse, harassment, sexual abuse, all those markers went down, not just immediately, but in the middle and longer term. And so it's been really, it's been amazing to be part of a story over you know, five decades where we can go back to certain places where the Jesus film has been showed initially and see how lives have changed, how societies have changed because why? Because a movie came? No, because they've had an actual encounter with Jesus Christ himself and they're living it out. And that's really, that's really fun to see and obviously very gratifying to be a part of a small part of that. Yeah, how motivating when Jesus is lifted up and he's through the book of Luke, it's very clear he is God and he claims to be God and people watching this see him and they respond, but they respond to someone who isn't just a prophet. So one of the things that our ministry Sightline was formally Josh McDowell ministry and Josh wrote this book called More Than a Carpenter. And he said, if Jesus is who he says he is, the son of God, and he claims to be God, he can't be just a good man. Brock? Yeah, I mean, he's either telling the truth about who he is. This means that that he is is Lord over all or he is not uh means he's lying or he thinks he's Lord. Right. But I love that we can't just consider him a good teacher or a prophet. He claimed to be God, so either he was or he was lying or thought he was. that was never left open to us. So I love, I love the feedback from the villages of the life change that. I, can I just give a little testimony to more Than a Carpenter and the resources of Sightline in this, in this arena. So I've seen it on the, on the field, so to speak, before stepping into this role of leading the whole ministry. One of my jobs, um, in a previous version of my life, I was responsible for, our evangelism strategies for North Africa, Middle East and Central Asia. And we honestly would pair Jesus film. resources with Josh McDowell or sightline resources because it was integral in the Muslim worldview to confront a lot of the misconceptions about who Jesus was. You mentioned like in the Islamic tradition, he's the prophet and seen only as such. so Evidence That Demands a Verdict was just, you know, was distributed in the millions and either went before the Jesus film was shown or right afterwards. It was either a pre-evangelism or it was discipleship or Jesus film, you know, kind of flopped back and forth. The reason is, is because for, in particularly in Islam, having that apologetic, that particular apologetic was so effective in helping people overcome what they've been taught for, you know, centuries. or in their own family and encountering the truth often meant lifting up Jesus for who he said he was, then, you know, contextualizing it and interpreting it for a Muslim audience. And whether it was in Egypt or whether it was in Kyrgyzstan, where I've seen this play out across the entire swath from North Africa to the far Eastern parts of Kazakhstan. we've seen those resources play out. So I would just want to say thank you and give testimony like, hey, this is really effective. Yeah, that's such a great point and it's a reminder that when Jesus is presented clearly, either through the Jesus film or through Cutting Through Confusion, we'll talk about in a minute, Cultural Confusion, which is our mission, so people see Jesus clearly. The bottom line is the same, is when he's presented clearly, you don't get this option of your own personal worldview of Jesus, this kind of safe Jesus as a prophet or as a good man or somebody with power and authority, but certainly not God. Jesus didn't leave that that option open to us.

He either is who he says he is God overall beautifully described in Hebrews 1 : 15:39

1 through 3 Or he's he's not that at all But there is there is no safe safe Jesus that we get to define for our own personal worldview But from what you just described it just reminds me of the of the importance of calling out the fact that that we're both Cru ministries in Jesus Film Project and Sightline, and that it's not just an organizational footnote. We don't just belong to a larger ministry. It means we both answer to the same mission of calling out who Jesus is so the world may see him clearly in the midst of confused cultures. That's so good, Brock. Jesus film takes the story of Jesus to the world. Over 2,000 languages, billions of viewings. Sightline's work is about removing obstacles that keep people from seeing Jesus clearly. The cultural noise, the misconception, the reshaped versions of Jesus. And here's the thing, the messages going out and the people seeing clearly, both of them are so needed for this global mission. Yeah, sometimes when people encounter this beautiful, miraculous story of Jesus, there can still be some questions lingering. For example, whether it's the Jesus film that people are seeing or whether it's someone who's walking somebody else through maybe like the Romans Road and just explaining the basics of the gospel, explaining who Jesus is. because they can bring a confused view of Jesus into that conversation, they have trouble reconciling these two ideas that they have in their head. Yeah, Josh, I'm sure you have seen this play out. Where's the message landed, but maybe the picture wasn't fully clear? Tell us about that. when the story of Jesus is contextualized and for us, that means let's contextualize and put into the heart language of people so that they don't have to learn another language to understand that Jesus loves them. When that happens, then, um, you're bringing the gospel into a place that can be received. but even within like our particular, you know, slice of the pie, we see how nuanced that can be. A story that comes to mind is in Rwanda shortly after the genocide in the 90s. We had a Jesus film team go to a village in Rwanda, show the Jesus film in Rwanda, and ostensibly that's the heart language of everybody in the country. However, as we were showing the Jesus film or as the team was showing the Jesus film, it was clear that the people that were watching it were repulsed. There was a physical like reaction to what they were seeing and hearing. And they understood it because it was in Rwandan. But the problem was, is that Rwandan, that particular dialect was the one that was being used by the perpetrators of the genocide towards the people who had. been had committed, had all these atrocities committed to them. And so they were hearing the mother tongue of their, you know, their tormentors. So fast forward, once the team realized that, and then we redid the Jesus film in that particular dialect, everything changed. Truth was there in both cases. But the contextual part of heart language and getting that right was so critical. And it made all the difference. Suddenly people went from like being standoffish to leaning in and having a true encounter with Jesus. And then another more recent example is that it's been up until now, up until a few years ago, there hasn't been a about Jesus for the deaf community. And the deaf community produced a Jesus film. And it was a privilege to come alongside of them as they were doing that. so deaf, a deaf Jesus film made by deaf producers and deaf actors. So imagine Jesus signing. That's the type of production that, that was taking place. And you can have, we had the Jesus film and in the box on the lower right-hand corner, people were doing their interpretation. We had that and it was ostensibly in the heart language. But nothing compared to when Jesus is actually signing. And when people encountered that for the first time, the deaf community said, now I understand who Jesus is because he's actually, he actually is communicating to me. Jesus is not somebody else. There's no medium. And so I love little vignettes like that because it shows just how much, I mean, we're trying to reflect how much dignity Jesus brings into every. personal conversation when we contextualize the gospel or when we contextualize this message. The truth is there and it's like an extra layer of love when we connect with someone's heart. It's so beautiful. Yeah, that's beautiful about just addressing whatever that cultural confusion may be, like when you bring Jesus, this true view of who Jesus is in the midst of it, they react to who Jesus really is. And when you ever address specifically their pain point or their point of whether it's transmission or confusion or whatever it is, cutting through that with the reality of who Jesus is, as you said in the very beginning so beautifully, it just changes everything. It does. And when Jesus communicated in the heart language, whether that's verbal or signed, when he makes claims about himself that doesn't leave any room for comfortable ambiguity, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me. I mean, that's not just a helpful teacher. That's a claim that demands a decision, and it demands a surrender. It reminds us that we don't get this kind of Jesus in our own worldview or this kind of safe idea of Jesus at a distance. He is who He is. Yeah, definitely worth surrendering to. What a beautiful story. Love that. Yeah, so Josh, you've spent your career at the intersection of message and culture. So what have you learned globally that we need to apply locally here in our context in the US? When we're talking to people about Jesus who've already formed a picture of them in their mind based on what they've been fed through various sources of culture that are defining Jesus in myriad ways, where do we start? Well, I really don't claim to be any particular expert, but I can bring some practical things that I've observed and learned over the years. We lived in France during one of our stops on Campus Crusade and decidedly a post church country and culture. And Jesus for French, by and large, is a myth and something that you know, if you believe in Jesus, and you certainly if you claim to follow Jesus out, you know, outwardly, and think about it in evangelical showing up and, and making a claim, like what we just said that he is the way the truth in life. It's just outright, like repulsion and rejection. Because why would you? Why would you believe that? You know, that was so 2000 years ago, or that was, you know, post, that was the enlightenment, you know, so here we here we are. we moved back to the States a few years after wrapping up our time in France. And we're seeing some of the same vestiges that we saw in France land on the shores of the United States. And it's so disorienting to like come back to a, you know, to a picture of what we thought the U.S. was in terms of its cultural Christianity, and then be hit in the face with like, this feels actually stunningly familiar to post-church France, not in the same exact way, but in the same arguments, you can see some of the, some of the seeds in the, the culture of, of rejecting Jesus as, or truth in general. And so, you know, once we got over that disorientation, we thought, okay, well, let's lean on the muscles that we developed in France and in the Muslim world where we were ministering and, know, bring that into the, the cultural context here. And a lot of it, You know, lot of the process or the methodologies of what we learned are simply, you know, everybody has a story and listening and taking an interest in like what their story has been unfolded. You'll learn a lot about somebody's priorities, their motivations, how they think about the world, how they order and going back to like, we're all idol makers. You'll hear, you know, what their idols are. And, you know, there's a, and at that point when there's a when there's listening, then you can bring in the Holy Spirit. Actually, Holy Spirit's already at work. So you don't, you're not bringing in anything. You're just listening to what the Holy Spirit is saying and trying to drive those connections of, well, there's a gap between what you say that you live your life by and what you seem to be living your life by. And there's nothing that you can do to close that gap yourself. And, you know, that's, that's one apologetic of amongst many. As we move into a more of a post-church culture and society, I think some of those tools are going to come in handy for us in the borders in the United States. I heard a pastor once say he was having a spiritual conversation with a friend at a table at a restaurant and the waitress was listening very intently. And so he brought her into the conversation and said, what, tell me about your faith journey. And she says, I don't, I don't have a faith. I don't believe in Jesus. And this is his response. Tell me about the Jesus you don't believe in. I'm pretty sure I don't believe in him either. talk about, you know, just listening well and finding those gaps. Josh, thank you. That was so, so very helpful. So as we wrap up, we could talk stories all day. Tell us what's happening at the Jesus Film now. What are you most excited about? Well, I think this next generation is, uh, is so exciting. There's been studies and endless studies done on, on, gen alpha and the next generations, even after alpha of about like what, motivates them? Some, some studies have called them the open generation. I they're, they're open to anything spiritually. And so I think that's really exciting to think about. Okay. There's, there's truth. And what is, what does truth look like in an AI driven world where you can, you can literally create your own truth and be driven by that. So that's one, that's just one kind of like broad theme. And then around the world, you look at the demographics and the world is incredibly young. The median age of the world is 30 years old in Africa. There's some nations where it goes as low as 14. And, and so some of the places that we were talking about who have not ever heard the gospel are incredibly young. And so understanding youth culture and how they're driven and connected is what Jesus film's next step is going to look like. So we're developing an animated version of the Jesus film for the next generation, hopefully by the next generation, so that they can have their own Jesus film. And the idea behind that, of course, is that Animation is the visual heart language of the next generation. We're going to match that with all the, like the oral heart languages that we have in our library, all 2000 plus. And when this movie is made, it'll be, you know, beautifully, animated by a production company out in South Africa that just did the David release uh a few months ago called Sunrise Animation. It'll be beautiful. It'll be amazing. That's what we hope. But more to the point, we're trusting the Lord that when people watch it, They'll have a true experience with Jesus. And by bringing in the heart language of the visual heart language and the, um, the audible heart language, we think it could be a very powerful tool. So appreciate any prayers as people think about Jesus film project along the way, it'll be a few years as we work and endeavor to complete that project. But when it's released, we think it will be a useful tool in the hands of. missionary force around the world. Yeah, and that is such a great example of mission forward or the mission in motion of just always keeping the next generation in view without forgetting about the current generations that we're dealing with. But moving that message forward in such a way that we're already thinking about, how are we going to impact the next generation in a way that best contextualizes the message of Jesus for them in the language that they can best receive it in it. I think that's so so critical that you all are on on mission to do that and and then all of us as ministries in Cru are all thinking the same kind of way of like hey How are we moving towards Z and alpha and even looking toward beta? To see how are we going to contextualize and think about the best possible ways to present Jesus clearly to ensure that these generations see Jesus for who he really is and the fact that you are able to do this and in 2,000 languages and make such an incredible global impact is just incredible. And just thrilled to be a part of here of Sightline and the mission that we're a part of so that not only can we help deliver the message, but when it arrives that people can see in depth and detail the fullness of Jesus as we cut through the confusion in their culture of how Jesus is distorted. in their culture and the different ways that God is misunderstood, the Bible is misunderstood, the way that their own identity and mission and purpose are misunderstood, and we can help align that to the way that God is actually created. And so they can actually see Christianity is the best explanation for the way the world is and provides the rescue that we're all desperately looking for through Jesus. And this is just a small example of what it looks like when when two parts of the same family work together. I love that excited about this next Jesus film. So here's audience what we don't want you to miss. Everyone seems to have a version of Jesus, but not every version is true. Yeah, and here's a critical part. The Jesus you believe in is the Jesus you follow. Yeah, Josh, you've given us a global picture of what's at stake when people almost see Jesus, but not quite. And it's the same picture we see right here. The question isn't just, do you believe in Jesus? It's do you believe in the real Jesus? So three things you can do this week. Josh, this is at the place in our podcast where we just give a practical next steps to really great conversations. So three things you can do this week. One, get honest. Where have you reshaped Jesus to fit your life instead of letting him reshape you? Go back to scripture. Let him define himself, not culture, not comfort. And here's a challenge. Start one conversation. Ask someone, who do you think Jesus is? And actually listen. Don't correct, don't jump in. Just listen first. Yeah, can't, can't uh... have subscribed to that enough of the importance of just asking good questions when you're having these great conversations and just a very similar experience of what's already been described before. The example that you gave, Shelley, of when somebody says something like, I don't believe in God. So tempting just to start giving them all these reasons why they should believe in God when it's so much easier and simpler and more effective to ask a simple question. Who do you think God is? then listen to what they say and there's a pretty good chance they're gonna describe a God that doesn't align with the God of the Bible at all. You say, oh well I actually don't believe in that God either. But let me tell you who the Bible says who God is. You're able to move forward from there. So that's that's such great practical advice and counsel for some next steps to take to take this week. I would also add on to there if you haven't seen Jesus film go watch Jesus film. You can go to Jesusfilm.org watch and you can watch the film, can watch different clips of the film, easy to share with family members and friends. It is the beautiful telling of the story of Jesus that has gone around the world over and over again and changed person after person after person. uh So great tool to share with somebody who doesn't yet know him. And so let the story that's done so much for billions of people around the world do something for that person in your life that may not know who Jesus is. So please go check that out. Brock. So Josh, thank you so much for taking the time to join us and be a part of a conversation that is so critical today. We deeply appreciate your work and of course the Ministry of Jesus Film Project as well. What a privilege to be with you guys. Thanks for having me on. If this conversation helped you see Jesus more clearly? then please share it with someone who needs it. Because the world doesn't need more opinions about Jesus. It needs clarity about who he really is. We'll see you next time on the In & For Podcast.