Storage Jar by Dave The Potter

In this episode of Why They Put That in a Museum, Sarah Lees and Beth Bacon discuss a stoneware jar made by Dave The Potter, a skilled enslaved potter from South Carolina. They discuss the inscription on the jar, which is a lighthearted description (dare we say roast?) of people in the town. They also explore other aspects of the jar, such as the clay it was made from, the history of its creation, and its various owners over the years. Finally they ponder its cultural context as an object from the Metropolitan Museum of Art—what is its place in a broader narrative of slavery and artistry? What are the ethical and cultural considerations behind displaying such objects in a museum? Listen to the podcast and find out. See the object at the Metropolitan Museum of New York website: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/747045

© 2025 Why'd They Put That In A Museum podcast hosts Beth Bacon and Sarah Lees.

Transcript

TRANSCRIPT: Storage Jar by Dave The Potter, Podcast: Season 1, Episode 5, Why'd They Put That In A Museum?

Sarah Lees: Hey Beth. 

Beth Bacon: Hi Sarah.

Both:  Hey there. Hello. 

Sarah Lees: This is Why They Put That in a Museum, the podcast where we explore objects found in museums. 

Beth Bacon: And just to, introduce ourselves, I am Beth Bacon. 

Sarah Lees: And I'm Sarah Lees, 

Beth Bacon: I am an avid museum goer and an author of books for young readers.

Sarah Lees: And I'm a museum curator and researcher. And what we're here to do is talk about art and objects and museums and what happens when you put them together and invite people in to look, 

Beth Bacon: You know, sometimes I walk through a gallery and I wonder why is this object here? So in this podcast, we're diving deep into the stories behind some of the artifacts that we find kind of interesting.

Sarah Lees: Right, so for each episode, we'll start with one thing in one specific place, and then wander off from there, exploring the thing and its history and the cultural ideas that surround it to see where they take us. And eventually, coming back to the original thing and then seeing if it looks or feels different as a result of what we have discovered. We're going to be talking about things that you can't see, at least in this audio only format. So we'll also always mention where the real object actually lives. And we'll try to provide a link to it when we can so you can at least call up an image, while you listen or maybe afterwards. Uh, and then hopefully you can go see it in person because I have to say, There is no substitute for the in-person experience. Especially nowadays when you can find images of everything that exists in the world and lots of stuff that doesn't actually exist, we definitely recommend making the effort to see the art or the object or, whatever it is in the museum in person if you can.

Beth Bacon: Today we're going to talk about Dave the Potter. Sarah has picked out a piece of pottery. Why don't you just go ahead and describe it for everybody, so we know what we're going to be concentrating on. 

Sarah Lees: So this is a large stoneware vessel. Hold a storage jar. I mean, that's how it's labeled. It is about two feet high and two feet wide. And it holds about 25 gallons. It's hard to sort of picture that, but it's very  human scale. You can almost imagine it, like the size of your torso or something. It is made of heavy clay that doesn't have that very smooth, fine finish like you'd find in porcelain. This is made with clay that came from the region  where it was made. So it's literally clay from the earth. It has, I think, a fairly rough texture, which you can get a sense of even by looking at the finished work obviously you can't touch it. This object is now in a museum, although we can discuss that part more.

 Beth Bacon: Yeah, so it's just like rough clay. Yeah, and I should mention too that The color looks like earth. 

Sarah Lees: That's another term for this is earthenware. The color looks like rough clay. The jar is actually glazed,  when you put a ceramic vessel into a kiln to harden it and finish it, You can either put something on the surface to give it a little bit more finish or not at all. So this has a glaze on it, and you can see in some spots, especially around the rim, it's much shinier. And then on the body of this vessel, it's some, in some places, it's a little rougher. You can see it looks as though the glaze has actually dripped down the surface a little bit. There's some vertical lines along there. And it's shaped, like an oval sort of shape with a great big wide mouth, with a curled over rim, and two little handles, kind of like ears, up at the shoulder of the jar.

Beth Bacon Do uou know what this jar would be used for?  

Sarah Lees:The volume, the volume was about 25 gallons, but apparently it wasn't made to hold liquid, as you might imagine. You could picture, like, water in there. We know from an inscription on this jar that it was intended as a storage jar, probably for meat.

Beth Bacon: For meat?

Sarah Lees: So, yeah, and then it would have, you know, probably had something over the surface, I don't know what you would put to seal it, maybe some wax over the top that you could then remove when you wanted to get at the contents, but I should get into the inscription itself, Once again, I should say is currently in the Metropolitan Museum of Art. You can go to their website and call up a picture. They have lots of great details, but even the overall image, you can see around that rim that I mentioned with the shinier glaze, there's also something scratched into the clay, So it is inscribed by the man who made it.

Beth Bacon: And  the inscription is near the top rim?

Sarah Lees: Yes. Yeah. So it would be easy  to read if you just  walked into the room and saw this jar. So let me tell you what it says though. It says,  “This jar is to Mr. Segler who keeps the bar in Orangeburg. For Mr. Edwards, a gentleman who formerly kept Mr. Thomas Bacon's horses, April 21st, 1858.” And then it goes on. “When you fill this jar with pork or beef, Scott will be there to get a piece. Dash. Dave.” So that Dave at the end is especially significant because this jar was made by a man named Dave. There's a lot of information there already, right? I mean, it names practically the whole town.

Mr. Edwards, Thomas Bacon, you've got horses, you've got the jars made for pork or beef.  And we do know a bit about Dave. So Dave was born in 1801, as an enslaved person. And he became a very gifted artisan. There are a number of similar stoneware pieces that can be ascribed to Dave. Some of them were, he signed, like this one. Not all of them. So presumably The things that he signed were, you know, more significant, more important. Perhaps he felt especially proud of them. We don't know? And the date on this one is 1858. Just before the Civil War, at which point, surely, Dave was still enslaved. 

But, after the Civil War, when he was emancipated. Dave took on the last name of Drake. And the thing about the last name Drake is we believe that it was probably the name of one of Dave's enslavers, one of the people who owned him. And the question is whether Dave took on that last last name voluntarily or not because sometimes such last names were sort of assigned to people without much of their input.  So that just already gives a slight added layer of complication when we want to name the artist quote-unquote of this work. So often people will call him David Drake, or they might just call him Dave the Potter, which is how he himself—he signed his name simply Dave. So that's one bit of information to go on. Then the question also becomes like, well, it becomes our central question, right? Why did they put this in a museum?

Beth Bacon: Can I ask another question about names? 

Sarah Lees: Yeah, please.  

Beth Bacon: Did slaves not have a last name until after they were emancipated? Like since this was made before the civil war ended would he not have been Dave Drake then? 

Sarah Lees: No, it is possible. It's possible, especially, you know, if he already clearly had a reputation as, sort of a superior craftsman, conceivably he could have taken on the name then, in order to, identify himself and his work But, I don't know when he adopted or when he was given that last name. My sense is that slaves, you know, either didn't have last names or they were referred to as, you know, basically the belongings of their enslaver. And so that would be the name that they were known by. Right. So, yeah. 

Beth Bacon: Yeah. So let's go back to that question. Why did they put that in the museum? 

Sarah Lees: Well, I can tell you a little bit more about the individual history of this particular storage jar. We know it was made by Dave. We know where it was made—At the Stony Bluff Stoneware Manufactory, which was in the old Edgefield district in South Carolina. Um, so this is a major production center of stoneware.

Beth Bacon: I have so many thoughts. One is that in our, um, American public, Knowledge of slavery. It's very heavily farming oriented. And it's interesting to think about an organization that makes a lot of pottery a profession of slaves that, that isn't as widely talked about as sort of the agricultural profession. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah, right. There's a comment in the catalog that says by the time of the civil war, I think there were, some millions of enslaved black people in the U S because this was such a major portion of the economy. They weren't all as you say, like working in fields. They also did other kinds of work from making stoneware to, for example, making quilts like we talked about with Faith Ringgold's quilt. So there were skilled artisans among that population because there are so many people that need so many things. They need storage yards and quilts to keep warm and, woodworking, surely.  Building… people became good at these trades.

The Stony Bluff Stoneware Manufactory, It's a small town, currently, and then, I expect. Which is on the western edge of the state of South Carolina. It's just about 25 miles north of Augusta, Georgia. Probably there was a good source of clay near there? The old Edgefield district became known for its stoneware. In other words, they would make a lot of it there, and it would get Purchased by other people in the region and got disseminated outward from this small place in South Carolina. So that people began to buy and use this practical and also quite lovely, stoneware. 

So this particular jar, according to the history on the Met Museum website, was owned by a family in Michigan. So already you have to imagine how it got from South Carolina to Michigan. Presumably people bought it and used it and traveled. And it's obviously very sturdy, so it can withstand that kind of travel. After Michigan, it was owned by a man in Atlanta, Georgia. At some point in there, it probably stopped being used for storage and was collected more as an aesthetic object or a historical object. And finally, after Atlanta, it was bought by some collectors named Dr. Arthur and Esther Goldberg. And it's the Goldbergs who sold it to the museum, but only in, let me see, 2020. Okay, interesting date, right? For the Metropolitan Museum to be buying a storage jar by Dave the Potter in 2020.

The reason that I even know about this jar and this whole story is that the Met then produced an exhibition in 2022 called Hear Me Now, the Black Potters of Old Edgefield, South Carolina. And I super highly recommend, if you can check out the exhibition catalog, there are some amazing essays that dig into the complexity of this whole question of, for example, naming, and of putting these kinds of art in a museum

So when we say, like, Dave's jar is also beautiful, what are the criteria that we're using to judge it that way? I think, um, it was made as a functional thing, and can we imagine that Dave would have expected to see it in a museum? Probably not, right? So there's a certain kind of re-valuing an object like this, to put it in the Metropolitan Museum and make it the center of an exhibition. 

Beth Bacon: It is beautifully made and even the shape of it is very elegant and balanced, all of that, I assume, art curators take into account when they say this is worthy of a museum?

Sarah Lees: Yes, I think you're right about that. It is aesthetically pleasing, the simplicity, even the roughness has a certain appeal. But the thing that I wonder about myself is, how many filters of American or European aesthetics are we looking at this object through? In other words, you could come up with similar types of ceramic wear, for example, that is made in Japan or in China. And the kind of aesthetic lens that we look at those through is quite different. That is, a different culture. The trade between the West and China has almost been constant, I think, through centuries, right? So people have learned how to look at, say a Chinese stoneware jar. And in fact, I pulled up one, it's a Metropolitan that was made in the first or second century. in China. It's a stoneware jar in the shape of a bronze container, which is  basically it's made of clay, but it looks as though it's metalwork.  It's a much more complex shape, than Dave's storage jar.

It actually has, a metal ring on it, even though of course that must also be clay. It's this really complicated and fascinating thing. It's got a similar type of glaze. It's that same kind of earthy greenish brownish color. 

Beth Baon: And let's talk about the writing itself, he clearly knew how to read and write if he is writing this little message on the side of the screen. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah, true.  The handwriting in the clay, you can look at, closeups on the museum's website. It looks accomplished. His signature is smooth and fluent. and in terms of writing, so just one interesting note is,  you can think of early American writing where the conventions for spelling, for example, have not been established. So you might spell there and there and, get the wrong one. We still do that today, many people. So the reason I'm bringing this up is that I mentioned the end of the inscription says Scott will be there to get a piece of pork or beef. So piece is spelled like P E A C E, like making peace rather than a piece of meat. but that is not distinctive because as I said, many people of any sort of origin probably would be hard pressed to spell the word peace in the way that, you know, we now accept as the conventional spelling. I think it's one of the notable things about Dave's, output is that he was visible in this way. It is his voice and that literally makes these vessels speak, right, which I think is in part why the exhibition was called Hear Me Now, because you are literally Hearing Dave's voice.

Of course, there were other works in this show that were not by Dave the Potter. One of the reasons that people have found Dave the Potter so fascinating is that he clearly took pride in his work and wanted to speak to the people for whom his work was made. Given that it's literally written in stoneware, I can't imagine that people objected to his inscriptions, I think they accepted his status as a skilled craftsman and his kind of claiming his work as his own, I think. There is actually, in this catalog, there's a little narrative about somebody extolling the virtues of drinking buttermilk. That's what it's about. But it mentions Dave the Potter in kind of a derogatory way, but at the same time saying, he is–he has the status in the community. So he was a recognized figure,  and people, however grudgingly, accepted his identity, his skill.

Beth Bacon: Can you read the inscription again, Sarah? Words themselves seem super friendly and happy. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah, you're right. I mean, I want to know who these people are, right? So it says, “This jar is to Mr. Segler, who keeps the bar in Orange, or in Orangeburg for Mr. Edwards, a gentleman, who formerly kept Mr. Thomas Bacon's horses, April 21st, 1858. When you fill this jar with pork or beef, Scott will be there to get a piece signed Dave.” 

Beth Bacon: This is like a community of friends or something. Yeah. And who's Scott like? I mean, is he like making fun of this guy who's  always  eating other people's beef? 

Sarah Lees: Pretty much. Sounds like it, right? Yeah. Who knows? 

Beth Bacon: Yeah, I mean it's like kind of like a roast. 

Sarah Lees: Totally right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's literally a whole community, a whole kind of way of life that comes alive in that, you know, two lines of inscription. 

Beth Bacon: It's a multimedia piece, right? It's poetry and pottery. 

Sarah Lees: Oh, that's kind of cool. Yeah, you're right. I didn't even think of that. The written component is also a really significant aspect of the work. So that's another question that we sometimes think about too. 

Beth Bacon: But also there's value in just looking at the object and feeling what you feel when you see it and  really observing, the interplay of the colors, the shape and the volume of it, all of that you just feel without words, without a story, and maybe there's value to that? 

Sarah Lees: Oh, absolutely. I think there is. So one of the last things that happens before an exhibition opens to the public, usually, is that a lighting person goes into the galleries and adjust the lights to make sure that everything looks its best or looks the way you want. So somebody with this two foot by two foot jar had to think about well where's the light source coming from? You know, are we going to make the glaze look shiny? Or not so, you know? Even that, the way that you experience an object, to some degree shaped by, museum professionals. We hope that we can present something in a way that's kind of viscerally compelling.

Beth Bacon: I can imagine somebody walking in and looking at this and saying so what? It's a pot. Yeah, it's brown. Oh, and it has the words on it. That's kind of cool. And then walking away and not knowing any of the other stuff around the circumstances of its making, the circumstances of its history since it was made, and the circumstances of the group that decided to even put it in the museum.

Sarah Lees: Yeah/

Beth Bacon: There's so much silence. You know, like, I think a lot of people walk into a museum and they're like, yeah, so a thing next, let me move on to my next thing. 

Sarah Lees: This is a question that we deal with all the time, frankly, because there is so much information and there's only so much you can put on the wall, right? Dave's jar can speak for itself, but many others can't. And context means a lot, right? I think, as you said, if I just was walking through the permanent collection galleries and saw a plain brown stoneware jar, I might think, “Nice,” and walk on. But when you put it in the context of this whole story about the culture of Old Edgefield, the manufacturing, all the people and the history behind it, suddenly you're drawn in.

Beth Bacon: So to summarize, what would you say, why they put this piece in the Met? 

Sarah Lees: I think both for its aesthetics and for its history. It adds a whole new dimension to their collections. Raising issues of cultural significance is one of the reasons that we do this work. Something so visually simple at first is so complex and full of meaning and life. And what better reason to put something in a museum, right? 

Beth Bacon: And that's our show. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah, thanks for joining us on this episode of Why'd They Put That in a Museum. If you enjoyed it, don't forget to subscribe, rate us, and leave a review. 

Beth Bacon: And tell your friends about Why'd They Put That in a Museum. We love  getting feedback and that might inspire us to feature your question in a future episode.

Sarah Lees: Yep, and if you ever find yourself in a gallery or museum and start wondering if you're wondering about some of these questions, just send us a message. We might feature that very object.

Beth Bacon: Thanks for being here and please join us for our next episode of why do they put that in a museum?