"Joe" by Richard Serra at Pulitzer Arts Foundation

Beth Bacon visits Richard Serra's 'Joe' and talks with Sarah Lees about her experience while walking around this large steel sculpture. In this episode of 'Why They Put That in a Museum,' Beth and Sarah wrestle with the opposing thoughts and feelings that arise when encountering this enormous steel sculpture located at the Pulitzer Arts Foundation in St. Louis, Missouri. Beth provides an on-site description of the piece, made from a huge coil of weathering steel. The piece invites visitors to walk inside and really experience what it feels like in a space created by an artist.  Sarah and Beth ponder the contrasts that arise from taking in this piece: it is minimal yet powerful, solid yet undulating, imposing yet open, made of rough, industrial metal yet its curves are elegantly smooth. They talk about how the context of a museum setting matters for a piece like this. In comparison, another one of Serra’s sculptures that was placed in a public space was so ill-thought-of that it was forced to be removed. So whether or not something is in a museum, it seems, can be a factor in whether a piece is admired. 

00:00 Welcome to 'Why They Put That in a Museum'

02:05 Live from the Pulitzer Arts Foundation

03:16 Exploring Richard Serra's 'Joe'

06:06 The Experience of Walking Through 'Joe'

08:25 The Art and Power of Richard Serra

13:57 The Story Behind 'Joe' and Other Works

22:06 Public Reaction to Serra's Art

25:36 Final Thoughts and Reflections

© 2025 Why'd They Put That In A Museum podcast hosts Beth Bacon and Sarah Lees.

Transcript

TRANSCRIPT: Joe by Richard Serra, a sculpture at the Pulitzer Foundation

Beth Bacon: Hello. I am Beth Bacon. 

Sarah Lees: And I'm Sarah Lees, and this is Why They Put That in a Museum, the podcast where we explore objects found in museums. 

Beth Bacon: And just to, uh, introduce ourselves, I am an avid museum goer and an author of books for young readers.

Sarah Lees: And I'm a museum curator and researcher. And what we're here to do is talk about art and objects and museums and what happens when you put them together and invite people in to look.

Beth Bacon: You know, sometimes I walk through a gallery and I wonder why is this object here? So in this podcast, we're diving deep into the stories behind some of the artifacts that we find kind of interesting.

Sarah Lees: Right, so for each episode, we'll start with one thing in one specific place, and then sort of wander off from there, exploring the thing and its history and the cultural ideas that surround it to see where they take us. And eventually, usually, coming back to the original thing and then seeing if it looks or feels different as a result of what we have discovered.

Beth Bacon: It's amazing how different an object seems once you know the  reasons these objects came to be on display. 

Sarah Lees: Also, we're going to be talking about things that you can't see, at least in this audio only format. and there's only so much that we can actually describe in words, although we're going to try. So we'll also always mention where the real object actually lives. And we'll try to provide a link to it when we can so you can at least call up an image, while you listen or maybe afterwards. then hopefully you can go see it in person because I have to say, There is no substitute for the in person experience.specially nowadays when you can find images of everything that exists in the world and lots of stuff that doesn't actually exist, we definitely recommend making the effort to see the art or the object or, whatever it is in the museum in person if you can. 

Beth Bacon: Today we're doing our broadcast live and in person at the Pulitzer Arts Foundation. I think it was founded by the Pulitzer family. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah, I think it was. And again, you're in St. Louis, right? 

Beth Bacon: Oh yes, I'm in St. Louis, Missouri. And I'm standing outside in the courtyard.

Sarah Lees: Yeah, this is our first outdoor attempt. 

Beth Bacon: Yes, it is a beautiful bluebird day, meaning the sky is completely blue, no clouds. There's a little bit of a wind, but where I'm standing is a courtyard, and it has pretty high  cement walls. that's blocking the wind and also the traffic in the city because we are right, , in what they call the Grand Arts Center in St. Louis. There's , Museums around and like theaters and all kinds of,  arts events spaces.

Sarah Lees: Yeah. So been at least once.

Beth Bacon: I just wanna give a picture really quickly.  It's gray all around me.  The ground is like a gray rubble. You may be able to hear my stomping feet. There's really nothing around in this courtyard except a very large artwork sculpture made of brown steel. And that is the artwork we are going to talk about. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah. So tell us what you see first. 

Beth Bacon: Okay. I'm standing in front of the sign and the name of the piece is Joe, J O E. Okay. And the artist is Richard Serra, S E R R A. And it said it was made in the year 1999.

Sarah Lees: Okay, so what do you get from it? What's your first impression of the work? 

Beth Bacon: Um, well let’s see.  It sort of looks like a flat tube, I guess, but it's also sort of like a cone, almost like an open cone. The sign says it's made out of weathering steel.

Sarah Lees: I read up a bit on that. Um, it does actually change from being in the elements? 

Beth Bacon: Yeah. And the sign also says, uh, the sculpture is an outer spiral.  13 by 5 feet by 48 feet by 40 feet.  I guess the 13 by 5 is the height. It's way higher than me. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah.

Beth Bacon: It's even higher than the fencing around it. 

Sarah Lees: Okay. 

Beth Bacon: It's not higher than the buildings nearby, which are two or three stories. So like the weathering steel sides are not straight up and down. They're kind of tilted, almost like in a parallelogram. In some places, the walls are tilted in, at the bottom, the steel is wider than the top, but then actually, in other areas, it's wider at the top and narrower at the bottom.

So it's almost like they took a piece of steel and kind of rolled it up.

Sarah Lees: It looks like it's flexible almost. 

Beth Bacon: Right. Like it's kind of.. it does look like, although it's steel, which is right, longer, flexible. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah. 

Beth Bacon: It maybe looks like rain has kind of dripped down and changed the color a bit. It looks like, um, you know, like almost like a window when it's raining out and there are like streaks of rain on it. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah, I think it's designed that way. It's meant to kind of react to those elements. 

Beth Bacon: Yeah, the steel is… You can go right up to this, right, and 

Sarah Lees: Yeah.

Beth Bacon: Though I see a sign right here that says, “Do not touch the sculpture,” so I will not touch it.

Sarah Lees: Oh. 

Beth Bacon: But it looks like … It looks like if you touched it, it would not be damaged in any way, but…

Sarah Lees: I wouldn't think so. I mean, it's designed to be outdoors and in the elements, but I guess, human sweat and oils on your fingers can always have some effect on something like metal.So I guess that's why. 

Beth Bacon: Yeah, yeah. So like I said, it's kind of almost like Serra took this giant sheet of steel, almost like wrapping paper and sort of rolled it into a coil. But. 

Sarah Lees:So it's kind of open? 

Beth Bacon: Yeah, yeah. And actually now I'm at the place that is open. So I can walk into it. It's like I can walk into where the, um, the coil is like in between the two rolled pieces, sort of like a continuous one piece of steel. And it's almost like a mouth that I'm walking into. 

Sarah Lees: Or like a big cave or something, right? You're kind of Invited to walk into the space.

Beth Bacon:  Yeah, it is like a cave with an open top.

Sarah Lees:  I can see it over your head now a little bit. 

Beth Bacon: and the steel around me is kind of tilted inward.

Sarah Lees:  And how big is that space where you're walking through? 

Beth Bacon: You know, it's about an, it's, it's less than an arm's length apart. Like, actually, it's almost like if I put my elbows out to the side. Oh, wow. The two elbows could, um. 

Sarah Lees: It's kind of a snug fit there, but. Yeah. But you know what, as I walk, it's getting wider.

Beth Bacon: Oh, getting wider and wider. And also the steel is sort of now tilting outwards where it was tilting inwards before so it changes as you go. 

Sarah Lees: Yes. Okay. Yeah. 

Beth Bacon: So now I'm getting closer to the center, and I can't see the entrances at all and actually I can hear an echo. Can you hear the echo. I can't from here.

Sarah Lees: Is there, is there someone else in there? Are you on your own or? 

Beth Bacon: Um, right now there's no one here. Okay. There were a couple people in here before. I think I've got the place to myself right now. 

Sarah Lees: So you're just in it, in the middle of the

Beth Bacon:  I'm in it. Actually, now I'm coming to the middle. And it's a big, big middle. 

Sarah Lees: Uh huh. 

Beth Bacon: I'm in a round room. An open topped amphitheater. Okay. Like a round space. Um, I don't know. If I walk, like, across the diameter, I can measure how big it is, how many steps. Yeah. Tell me. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, I'll do 14 because 13 is unlucky. So 14 steps to get across the middle of it. So that's how big this like sort of coiled up space is that I'm in. 

Sarah Lees: Okay. 

Beth Bacon: Yeah. And the inside of it looks exactly like the outside. Right. Right. I mean, I'm sure it's, it's the same material. It's, you know, been out there. Uh, exposed for the same amount of time.  I would say, it's not a thick piece of steel. It's probably about two and a half inches thick. Two and a half inches. the steel is about as wide as my pinky is long. 

Sarah Lees:  Okay. Yeah, that's not huge. Um, but you know, one of the remarkable things about Sarah's work is that structures like that are self-sustaining. The only thing holding it up is its own weight and balance.  the walls  they stand on their own. And of course the whole thing must be massively heavy.  It seems solid. It doesn't seem like it's gonna, like, fall down. I think it actually belongs to a group of works, kind of a whole family of, uh, forms, I guess, that are called torqued ellipses.

So it's like you're describing it sort of a rounder oval shape. but then it's twisted so that, you know, the bottom footprint isn't the same as the top. And as you said, the sides of the walls kind of move in and out as you go. I find them so fascinating and they really raise a lot of questions. 

We'll start with our basic question. 

Beth Bacon Yeah, ask away. I'll try to answer it from being here. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah. So why do, why do you think this, uh, work is in a museum whereas at a museum? Does it seem like art? Does it seem like entertainment?

Beth Bacon: It feels industrial?

Sarah Lees:  Yeah, I'm sure. 

Beth Bacon But it is a, I really love the experience of walking around it. And I love the chance. To be almost literally inside a sculpture. I think that that is really cool. It's like an experiential piece of art. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah, definitely. 

Beth Bacon: It's really super fun to walk around and once you get in. It's like you're in a little Stonehenge or something, you could, like, maybe have a Druid ceremony in here or, or something.

Sarah Lees: Yeah. what you said that it's experiential is exactly kind of the main concept that Sarah was going for in this kind of work. It's about the experience of the space over time, because You don't get the full sense of this work just by standing outside. Like, before you went in there, you didn't really even know what the space was like, that it had that center hall, in a way.

You really have to walk through the space, and The space itself has an effect on you as the, not just observer, but like the person experiencing what it does to you. 

Beth Bacon The outside is just basically a wall. You just, you know, it looks like a steel wall. And then the wall breaks. and you can go into the opening.

Sarah Lees: So actually, when you approached it, did you see that sort of the opening at first or no? You didn't. 

Beth Bacon: So the angle that I approached it from, you could not see the opening. Oh, cool. There is another side of it, though, that you could. 

Sarah Lees: But it's probably partly about, like, a sense of discovery, too. Like, Yeah.

Beth Bacon: Yeah. I mean, and the wall is just so straight up and down and blank. And then when you do see the opening, you're like, well, of course, I'm going to go in there. Yeah. Even though it's made out of this heavy industrial steel, this weathering steel, it's still kind of cozy, cool.

Sarah Lees:  The substance is entirely an industrial material. there is a brand name that it's sometimes called by which is core 10. Um, it was basically a material that was developed for industry. For, you know, building buildings or making shipping containers, bridges, overpasses, that kind of thing. so it's not at all an art material, and the name itself comes from two ideas. One of them is to do with corrosion, which is the core part of the word. And it's resistant to corrosion in the sense that even though it is, as you can see, that surface looks a little bit like rusty and it has responded to the rain, it doesn't actually affect the strength of the material. It doesn't corrode in terms of decaying, right? It just, the surface changes but remains stable. And then the other part of the word, the ten part, has to do with tensile strength, which basically means you can bend it and twist it and torque it and it's still. Basically as strong as it was if you, if you didn't do any of those manipulations to it.

Beth: So the core 10, it's not the number 10, it's T E N, like 10, the first part. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah. I mean, I think when you, I think as a brand name, maybe it is 10, the number 10, but the word itself is derived from,  Tensile,  to do with the strength of the material. and so the thing is, of course it's designed to be outdoors. Um, you don't need to protect it, although I guess you can't touch it too much. But it was designed to be that kind of stable surface. And it gives this really amazing, really tactile, right? Patina to the surface. You do want to touch it. I've seen some of these and I know I do. 

Beth Bacon: I know. I'm so sorry. I can read the sign that says do not touch it, which I won't, but it does look  inviting to touch. You know, I just see so many interesting contrasts. The sides are leaning in, but it doesn't feel unsafe. It doesn't feel like it's going to fall in on me. It feels like it's solid. Yeah. That's interesting. Mm-Hmm? . Yeah. It's, it's, it's almost like fluid because the angle is so smooth, but it's also secure. 

Sarah Lees: Okay. Fluid, like in, its in the way the surface kind of undulates?

Beth Bacon: Well, it, it doesn't undulate it's like leaning. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's like if you took a roll of paper and rolled it up and then like. It's propped it up on the narrowest part of the paper. Yeah. It's leaned over a little. Mm hmm. So, I guess I said fluid because it's almost wave like. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah. No, I get it. I do. And the, the sides of those walls are almost putting you in motion, right? In the same way that they seem to be in motion themselves. It's, it's having an effect on what you're feeling as you're walking through there. 

Beth Bacon: Yeah. It doesn't feel like it's going to move on you. It's really stable. It feels like it's going to stay there. It's not boring, you know, really interesting. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah. So this is another interesting, factoid about Richard Sarah. He makes these things so that they're self supporting and they're freestanding. And this one, Joe is a bit of a later work for him. I guess, was completed in 1999. Although Sarah actually died just last year, I think in 2023.  Oh, no, actually it was just  earlier this year and March of 24. He got his start as an artist in the 1960s. And initially he used, these really industrial materials like sheets of rolled steel and sort of big tubes. Not as big as that thing. But they were clearly just sort of leaned up against the wall or propped against it. And again, the only thing holding them up was their own weight. and you really got a sense. In looking at them, the visceral sense that nothing but gravity and balance and their own weight was holding these things up. There's a famous, or infamous, incident when a worker was installing one of Sarah's works in a museum and part of it actually fell on the guy and killed him. So. 

Beth Bacon: Oh, that is tragic. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah. Oh, definitely. But there's that, that sense of almost threat, in a way that I think initially was something that Sarah was interested in.

Beth Bacon Huh. Well, if this fell on me, I would be flattened. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah. I don't think it will. 

Beth Bacon No, it doesn't, it doesn't feel like it's going to fall on me.

Sarah Lees:  Yeah, no, I think it's so interesting that instead of that sense of threat, I think there was sort of a development in his work. Earlier on, he was more interested in kind of the raw power and the industrial sort of brute force of these industrial materials. But then later on it moves into something that's actually more reassuring, kind of welcoming. And you feel in that enclosed space that it's, the dimensions are your arm span, basically, as you said, it's like over human size as an object, but also very welcoming to a human scale person, right?

Beth Bacon: Definitely welcome. And, and the pathway, into this space. And the opening is definitely human scale. So, again, it's like, I just find contrast really fascinating. It's like the contrast between human scale and the like, industrial ship. It's almost like the hull of a ship scale. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah, definitely. There's a lot of contrasting ideas or, opposed ideas that come together in this kind of work. 

Beth Bacon: Yeah. And on this like beautiful, bright day, um, there are, the walls are like creating dark shadows on each other. If you took photos of this, you would make a lot of really cool abstract photos.

Sarah Lees: Yeah, definitely. It's almost reminding me of something like a Mark Rothko painting, right? These blocks of different colors and, abstractness, but sort of a warmth, almost a glow. I can see like the sunlight on that warm orangey brown.

Beth Bacon:  Yeah, yeah. It's a beautiful blue. It's gorgeous, and the dark brown, light browns, and then the grays on the ground.

Sarah Lees: Yeah. Contrast, right, between kind of traditional art associations, like a painting, but also, In a way, it's almost like a landscape form too. It's actually shaping the environment that you're in as if it were a mountain or, you know, a giant boulder, a big tree. So again, that's more of these kind of weird binaries like art and not art, industrial, but also, it's very tactile and protective and inviting. that's one of the things I really love about his work. 

Beth Bacon: And you know what? Outside of this, big giant sculpture, the courtyard is just completely bland. There's no other art around, like in some museums, there’d be be like a bunch of other sculptures. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah, you might have like a sculpture garden or something, right?

Beth Bacon: But this is that. In fact, just on the way here, I went to St. Louis University and I drove past the St. Louis University Sculpture Garden. And as I drove by, I was like, wow, there's a lot of sculptures in there and they're all different colors. It was almost like so many sculptures that it was, you know, It's almost like a graveyard. Like everything was like really packed in there, you know, but here, there's nothing near this. 

Sarah Lees: It's really minimal and simplified and… I think like another detail we should talk about is that the work is named, the title of the work is Joe, right? And as you said, I think, or did we say, I don't know, but it's named for Joseph Pulitzer, who was one of the people who commissioned the work and for the Pulitzer Arts Foundation, so…

Sarah Lees: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that answers the question that you asked me at the very beginning. Yeah. Which is, why do you think this is in a museum? I think it's in this museum because Joe Pulitzer asked Serra to make a piece for this museum. And, and this is the piece he made. So literally, why is this in a museum? Because he was commissioned to make something to put in this exact spot. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah, definitely. And I think it's really fascinating to think about that type of work, something that's so. Minimal, but also rich and full of ideas. And the fact that Serra wanted to make kind of an anti-art or art that wasn't meant for a museum setting or meant to be seen outdoors. So what I wonder about is why somebody would find appealing this kind of work? Somebody who embodies the establishment, right, and in a position of influence and authority, and who endows an institution like Joseph Pulitzer. And I should say, I don't mean that in a bad way. Pulitzer was actually a  newspaper publisher, the St. Louis Post Dispatch, um, which was founded by his grandfather, also Joseph Pulitzer. And the paper had like really liberal views. Joseph Pulitzer shared the Pulitzer Prize Committee for Journalism, and he was a big collector of contemporary art In some ways I think the simplicity of the work itself,  doesn't just allow itself to be acceptable to people in power, it actually embodies and enacts a certain form of power too, so maybe that's, part of the appeal for somebody like a wealthy art collector. 

Beth Bacon: Yeah, it's, it feels powerful, but it also feels minimal.   It's definitely in the aesthetic of contemporary art. Contemporary minimal art, I would say that. 

Sarah Lees: Well, there are some, I mean, minimalism itself is a really interesting topic and we could talk about the link between these blank sort of neutral forms of minimalism, in terms of a parallel with the sort of almost invisible, seemingly normal, quote unquote, but all powerful system of capitalism,  which a number of writers have actually talked about in terms of minimalism, but I don't think we need to go quite that deep, right? 

Beth Bacon: Well, um, you, we can talk about the name Joe, right? I mean, was that because he was a sort of egotistical billionaire who, they named it after him,  or is it just fun? You know, Joe is a casual, fun nickname, and there's something fun about this sculpture. It's fun to walk around. Kids would love this, I think, like for a field trip or something. That would be like super fun.

Sarah Lees: Joseph Pulitzer and Serra were actually friends. and this thing wasn't the first work that Serra made for Pulitzer.  In about 1970, Pulitzer commissioned and Serra installed several works in a big open field on Pulitzer's summer property. They had known each other for something like 20 years, when in the early 90s, Joe and his wife, Emily Pulitzer, started planning a museum to show their own collection. Again, they were big collectors of contemporary art.  I think there was a car showroom or manufacturer or something and they were gonna convert it, but then they built a whole new building. Anyway, that's when they commissioned Sarah to make this work, and it was actually completed after, um, Joe died in 1993.  But then was put in place, like, purpose-built for the Peel District Foundation, which formally opened in 2001. 

Beth Bacon: So interesting.  

Sarah Lees: Another pretty  famous, um, incident, has to do with a work called Tilted Arc. This is something that was installed in a plaza in downtown New York, outside a, a federal courthouse, and it was so unpopular, that eventually it was removed from that spot, even though Serra was commissioned to make it for that very location. 

Beth Bacon: Tilted Arc, is that what it was called? 

Sarah Lees: Tilted Arc, yep, like A R C, because again, it's that, it's that same kind of form almost, except open ended rather than spiraling. The issue, apparently, was that people, at least they said, as an excuse, that it was not art-like enough. And it had too much power to go in this empty, public space. And I should say the plaza was really not pretty. It was kind of usually empty and windswept and between a bunch of other buildings. But Sarah had added something that looked big and industrial and basically didn't allow you to cross the plaza. It forced you, if you were trying to get across it, to, to react to it, to change your path because of it. Therefore, I think people didn't like it. Again, on, like, a really visceral level, it was doing something to them. It had a kind of power that they objected to. And so the idea was, it's not, you know, it's not a sculpture of a man on a horse say that you might see in a public plaza. 

Beth Bacon: Uh, have you heard the concept of desire lines? 

Sarah Lees: No. 

Beth Bacon: So desire lines are like say a sidewalk that's  goes around a square, lawn. But  you want to get from one corner of the lawn to the other, and so people just go diagonally across over the grass, and then they make a path, and that path is called the desire line. It's like, and you see them all over the place, especially like on college campuses, where it's like, oh, I actually want to go here, and I'm going to cut off this little corner, because the path is making me weave around. And, and this is like, maybe like the opposite of a desire line. It's like this big metal thing right where you want to walk. I can imagine that people are not so happy. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah. It's sort of like, here's what the artist desires and it does not regard what anyone else might, might think. 

Beth Bacon: Yeah. So, so what happened to Tilted Arc?

Sarah Lees: Oh, it was removed. It was removed from the place for which it was commissioned. And at the time, Sarah said that if you move this work from the spot for which it was designed, it's no longer viable as a work of art. And in a way that's absolutely accurate, since it was intended to be site-specific. And once you take the work out of the site, it's no longer doing its job in a way. There was a big controversy. Lots has been written about this moment, and I think it also again speaks to the openness to interpretation of this kind of giant sheet of steel that pushes you around. Basically, um, it is kind of a critique of that sort of power that we've been talking about. I think it also has a great deal to do with context, right? If you're trying to cross a plaza to get to the subway or something, you're not going to be happy about a big wall blocking your way. Whereas if you're in a museum, you're seeking out some kind of experience, I think.

Beth Bacon: The intent is so interesting, right? Steel, like in between you and the train station, like, that's not art. That's annoying, 

Sarah Lees: Obstruction. 

Beth Bacon: But here it's kind of fun. If I had to go through this roundabout to get, to get somewhere important, I might not be so whimsical about it. Um, so you might hear a little bit of an echo cause I just walked in again. And, there was a family in there. It was a girl. Uh, she was about eight years old and a grown up man and a grown up woman. And they were in the center when I walked in and they, all three of them were looking at the sky and they all had huge smiles on their faces. Um, clearly they were having a good time in there.

Sarah Lees: Right, right. So.

Beth Bacon: Yeah, uh, I mean this sculpture is clearly making people happy. Um, but the other one, nobody wanted it around. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah, again, I think it has everything to do with being in a museum. You kind of know what to expect when you walk in. as opposed to, having an obstruction in your, in your daily life.

Beth Bacon: Yeah. And now the girl is running. She's running like she's doing laps in the spiral. So she has been inspired to change her speed and try out the experience in a different way. Fast, slow, round,  straight. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah. It's so funny that it kind of creates. It's an open space for you to, to express what you're feeling or kind of have a different new experience to talk to the people in your group or just to watch other people even. It's probably great for people watching too, right? And that seems like a really wonderful goal for a museum is to create the kinds of spaces where people can have these experiences. 

Beth Bacon: Yeah. The girl is just as happy as can be. She's bouncing up and down. Oh, now she's taking the woman by hand and leading her in. So yeah, they're like having a Saturday afternoon adventure. I think that's a great reason to put something in a museum. Just give something unusual to people then and see what it feels like when you're in a different space than you've ever been in before. 

Sarah Lees: Yeah, definitely. All right. That's definitely a good reason and a good answer to the question about Joe Richard Serra. Thanks for going out in the field Beth.

Beth Bacon: Of course. Yeah. Well, it's fun to be out in the field and it is a beautiful day. 

Sarah Lees: Nice. I should get outside myself. Maybe find some art to look at or experience. 

Beth Bacon: Yes. 

Sarah Lees: All right. So we'll, we'll do this again.

Beth Bacon Absolutely. 

Sarah Lees: Cool. All right. 

Beth Bacon: See ya.