Work Face
A podcast where people finally tell the truth about work. Workplace culture expert Ben Jackson hosts refreshingly honest conversations with people from all walks of life about what actually happens on the job.
Work Face
Just Grateful to Be Here (with Bijan Stephen)
What does it take to succeed in a creative field like journalism? Who gets the biggest interviews, the coolest assignments, the fast track to a huge audience? The answer has a lot less to do with how hard you work than with how you're seen by the people calling the shots.
Bijan Stephen, journalist and writer at Compulsion Games, shares his journey from magazine assistant to TV host and video game writer—and explains how some people end up being pegged as “talent” while others don’t.
(00:00) The Industry Talent Hierarchy
(04:12) The Old-School Magazine
(07:11) Workplace Hierarchy and Performance
(09:27) Navigating Media Culture
(12:16) The Vice “Pirate Ship” Experience
(14:21) Unspoken Talent Systems in Media
(19:03) Transitioning From Media to Game Development
(21:57) What Game Writing Actually Involves
(26:35) Finding Support in the Games Industry
(29:56) Instability as a Feature of Modern Work
(30:57) Advice for Early-Career Journalists
Bijan Steven is a writer at Compulsion Games and a music critic at The Nation. His work has appeared in the New Yorker, the New York Times, Esquire, Wired and many other places.
Follow Bijan on Bluesky and Instagram, read his writing for The Nation, and check out his games on Itch.
See also:
Media's unspoken "talent" hierarchy by Jenny G. Zhang
South of Midnight Gameplay Trailer (coming April 8)
Night in the Woods Launch Trailer
Oxenfree Launch Trailer
Afterparty Launch Trailer
Deadlock Gameplay Trailer
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Work Face is produced by Hear Me Out, a culture strategy firm for leaders with the courage to listen. We help them cultivate trust by having real conversations with employees at all levels about what’s working and what’s not.
Learn more at hearmeout.co and follow us on Instagram, Bluesky, and LinkedIn.
I went to one of the holiday parties, and, um, they were just like giving out cash at the party. I was like, what? Like, this is, this is nuts. Like every employee is like getting like a thousand bucks in cash. Cool. They used to give out rings to like senior employees. It wasn’t a cult, but like it had some intense loyalty vibes. It was a place that wanted you to thank them for employing you. And it also took a very certain kind of person to succeed there. A person that management really liked. And they would give certain people opportunities. And they would not give certain people opportunities. And it was very obvious which group you were in.
Benjamin:What does it take to succeed in a creative field like journalism? Who gets the biggest interviews, the coolest assignments, the fast track to a huge audience? The answer has a lot less to do with how hard you work than with how you’re seen by the people calling the shots. I’m Ben Jackson, and this is Work Face, a podcast where people finally tell the truth about work. Today’s guest is someone I consider myself lucky to call a friend. Bijan Steven is a writer at Compulsion Games and a music critic at The Nation. His work has appeared in the New Yorker, the New York Times, Esquire, Wired and many other places. I first met Bijan years ago at Vice when I was the Director of Mobile and he was a journalist at Vice News on HBO. Bijan Steven, welcome to Work Face.
Bijan:Hello. I’m here. What’s up? Thank you for having me.
Benjamin:How long have we been friends for?
Bijan:I was gonna like pull up my resume and look at the dates. Uh, I think I would guess like since like about it’s been about a decade. Uh, Yeah. Cause like I, we
Benjamin:Something like that.
Bijan:We worked at vice and like what, 20, there at like 2015? To like 20, early 2016?
Benjamin:Yeah.
Bijan:But you know, we were making TV. It was, it was a different time.
Benjamin:Well, that feels like a nice segue into, um, what should our listeners know about you? What have you worked on?
Bijan:That’s a good question. I really should have pulled up my resume when I said I was going to. I was a journalist for like 10 years. Um, and I worked, um, at different magazines like I, you know, Vanity Fair, I worked with the New Republic, Vice, of course, The Verge, and, uh, I did some TV at Vice, which was really interesting and fun, then I went into podcasting and doing the kind of prestige podcasts that everyone used to think could get adapted into Hollywood series. And now I’m writer at Compulsion Games. We have a game coming out in, I don’t know when this episode is going to release, but I think that the date is April 8th. It’s called South of Midnight. It’s great. The previews just came out today. Everyone loves it. You’re probably going to love it, too. So check it out.
Benjamin:I can’t wait for it. Um, and I’ll note for the listeners, Bijan is the best source of video game recommendations I have ever met. My wife Larissa and I have played at least four or five different games that you’ve recommended. Among them, Night in the Woods,
Bijan:Great game.
Benjamin:Oxenfree. Fantastic game. And the sequel to Oxenfree, After Party.
Bijan:Oh, yeah, that game. I really like that game. That game is fun.
Benjamin:So we start these episodes out with the same question. What do you remember about the first time you felt insecure in the workplace?
Bijan:You know, that is a very good question , because I think everybody can relate to it. It’s a thing that if you’ve, if you’ve had a job, you, you, you, you immediately sort of have an answer. I’ve worked at a bunch of different places in a bunch of different circumstances. Not to sidestep your question, but I will say, I think that the answer is more a function of, like, how workplace power dynamics are kind of expressed in the relation between employers and employees. So, like, you feel insecure at work because, you know, if you, if your boss doesn’t like you for whatever reason, like they can just let you go, you could get fired for anything. There’s a, we live in a right to work country, right? But yeah, I think, I mean, the answer is really something totally mundane where, you know, I had gotten this job and I didn’t have any formal training in the thing I was doing. And it was just like one crisis after another and then no positive reinforcement. And so it was just like, you know, just people, telling me I wasn’t doing things right without actually like, you know, trying to, to reinforce like the things I was doing. It was a magazine, an old school magazine. It was like a, I don’t know. You’ve seen like mad men and shit. Like it’s, can we swear on here?
Benjamin:Oh yeah. We’ve got the explicit marking on the feed. So yeah, swear away.
Bijan:Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, it’s, it’s just like, it was very, a very old school place. Um, with the idea was you’d work your way up and eventually get promoted. And they, they like really screwed over a lot of people who bought into that. And you know, uh, I left after not, not super long, but it was, it was like sort of an experience that stuck with me, because it was every day I sort of dreaded going to work, and it wasn’t really anything I could do about it because I needed the money and they were underpaying me too, like it was crazy.
Benjamin:So it sounds like this was a workplace where the narrative was. If you work hard and do all the right things, you’ll move up through the ranks. Is that fair to say?
Bijan:Yeah, but it wasn’t actually true. The disjunction was pretty blatant. Like you could work there for a long time and make your way up to like assistant editor or something. And it’s like well, first of all, the job is not really paying enough to live on. Then secondly, like you don’t have any real you’re still like assigning like author bios for like the front of the magazine or like little captions or maybe like one front of book piece which I think you know obviously you’re learning from the other people beside you who are really wonderful at their jobs, but like there’s not really a chance that you’re ever going to get there unless the boss decides like, "Hey, I like you, so you’re gonna have one of these jobs." And it was, you know, the subtext, the undercurrent was that, you know, you had to become somebody’s favorite so they would advocate for you and you know, you could move up in the world.
Benjamin:Was there a moment when it became clear to you that the narrative about working hard and doing all the right things was not actually how things worked there?
Bijan:Oh, yeah immediately! It was immediately clear Um, because you know, I kept being like, oh, can I like, you know, can I write for the website? Can I do this stuff? Um, and then you know, they sort of eventually moved on it, but I was incredibly impatient, so I got offered another job like shortly, you know, I was I wasn’t even there for a year I got offered this other job that was like a major step up and um, you know, it was interesting uh, because I think I heard later that people were upset that I’d left, they thought I should have stayed and like paid my dues and worked my way up and I was like, "that’s a waste of time!" Like, what am I, like, I still, I’m like alive, there’s stuff I gotta do, like, it’s not, like, I, time is worth more than your schedule, you know what I mean?
Benjamin:i know exactly what you mean.
Bijan:Like, I don’t know, I was like 22, so like, who knows?
Benjamin:I mean, did you talk to your coworkers about how you were feeling before you…
Bijan:Sure, I mean, we all sort of, we all sort of complained, we were all assistants, there was like, there was a lot of camaraderie, and everyone sort of left for one reason or another, whether it was like an MFA program, or like another job at a different magazine. It was, it was sort of like a loose network of people who, who liked each other and some people did stay and they, they, I think they, I think they have sort of worked their way up a little bit, but, I think everyone who left is sort of a little better off, but I don’t know. It took a really certain kind of personality. So I, I don’t even want to like, I don’t want to say necessarily like that they wouldn’t have been more successful elsewhere. I think to succeed in that system, you really had to be the kind of person that they wanted to see. And I think a lot of jobs are like that, you know, you have to like perform the, the role of somebody who is like good at that kind of job and performs well in that kind of workplace, like you have to perform yourself while also doing the job. Um, which I think is, I think in the culture industries, there’s a lot of that. You have to like, sort of seem like the kind of person who, you know, can do this without any effort or what, like, just, you have to, there’s like a, it’s not just nonchalance, but it is one of those things where you have to seem like the kind of person that somebody in this field would promote. You have to seem like the kind of person who is, has like all the connections and all the talent and all the whatever. Um, and just, just doing the work is not enough . Um, and I think that’s, I think I would say the entertainment culture industry is like, that’s sort of a, one of the unspoken things that is a requirement that no one really tells you about.
Benjamin:So did your boss get caught by surprise when you gave notice?
Bijan:I think so, but I mean, I didn’t really care. I think she was also happy for me. Like I think she’s she understood it was kind of a dead end job and also like not quite right for me, for what I wanted to do or whatever. So like, the person who hired me was very nice about it. Um, the person who was my manager from day to day, like she was pissed. I don’t know. I was just like, "I don’t like you." But yeah, it was a learning experience. I, and I think, you know, it was sort of invaluable.
Benjamin:What was your relationship like with that manager? You just, you know, you said, sounds like you didn’t like them very much. How did it start?
Bijan:Oh, I mean, they were just sort of imperious. They were always sort of reminding me about like what I should be doing or I wasn’t doing or, you know, "Have you done this? Have you done that?" It was like sort of micromanaging, but also like in a condescending way, which is like kind of an insane combination. Because micromanaging is condescending to begin with, right? Like, that’s like one of the things that that’s one of the reasons it sucks so bad. We just never got off on the right foot and I was just always trying to like keep her happy. Clearly there was more going on, she was, I think it was a precarious workplace, and you know, she knew she could be made obsolete at any time with all these, you know, pivoting to digital and pivoting to video, and all that shit, so… I understand there was like now that there was more stuff going on but I also haven’t thought about it in like 10 years, so…
Benjamin:How do you think that rigid hierarchy and lack of transparency around paths for growth impacted your coworkers or even just, you know, how well the operation ran?
Bijan:I mean the operation ran because it was like, it was a tradition thing, like it just worked because it had always worked and this was how it was always going to be. But I think, for, for my co workers, it was bonding, for one thing. I also think it made people a little bit more ambitious, um, and more like interested in leaving. Like, I think it was kind of an intentional weed out process, right? Like, um, like how like return to office is not actually return to office. It’s like, get everyone who wants to leave to quit, um, to, to bring our costs down. Uh, and I think it was that kind of thing, where the promises were always nebulous. They always were they always were coming in under like salary wise, like I heard of some people who like or at least one person who was up for like this really plum job at a different magazine. And she was convinced to stay because they were like, yeah, they countered with like, oh, yeah, we won’t we’ll pay you like, 20 percent more, and you’ll get a different like a slightly higher title and you’ll get to edit some stuff that’s longer. And then you know the title change and the salary thing happened, but nothing else did so she left eventually. And it was just like well, they were always more afraid of people leaving than sticking around. I think by the time you’ve gone out, interviewed for jobs, and have another job offer, you have a pretty good idea of whether or not you’re going to stay, and whether or not a counteroffer is actually going to you change your mind. Um, and it seemed that place sort of ran on that kind of idea, where it’s like, yeah, we can just, because we’re who we are, we can just counter, and they’ll take it. And it was, you know, it was true in a lot of cases, but, they did not counter me. Because I mean, I was like a fucking assistant, like what was I going to do? There were just tons of people who are willing to do anything to get one of these jobs and be part of this like scene.
Benjamin:You know, on the one hand, you have a really sounds like old and traditional institution, your former employer. And then you have a newer media company, a cooler media company, Vice. And that both of them really sound like they have the same basic attitude towards the people who work there, which is "You should be grateful to be here."
Bijan:Yeah. And there’s an infinite number of people waiting to replace you. Vice was like a really interesting place to work. It was just one of those places where at least in my part of the company, which um, I don’t know anything about the accounting shenanigans or what was going on back there, but uh in my experience of the company, it was just like, you know… We were making this television show and it was new, and it was a daily TV show and no one had ever done that at Vice before, and so the infrastructure was being built by hand by from scratch. And it was it was a really interesting time to be there and it was really exciting to be a part of but it also was like you know, there were a lot of growing pains. I think if you you go read some postmortems and you’ll know exactly what we’re talking about It was a crazy company. I remember when I did, when I didn’t work there, I went to one of the holiday parties, and, um, they were just like giving out cash at the party. I was like, what? Like, this is, this is nuts. Like every employee is like getting like a thousand bucks in cash. Cool. I remember Shane Smith was always calling it a pirate ship. It was always like, you know, we’re going, It’s a rocket to the moon. And you know, there was a whole sense of like, this was, this was, this, this was the new media. This was the place. They used to give out rings to like senior employees to like show their loyalty or whatever. It was a whole, it wasn’t a cult, but it wasn’t. Like it had some, had some, uh, intense loyalty vibes.
Benjamin:I remember the rings. I knew the keeper of the rings.
Bijan:Oh yeah? Did you ever get one?
Benjamin:Yes, I know this. I, I never got a ring and I never saw where they kept the rings, but I do know, uh, I did hear from one person that, at one point they saw this person open a drawer full of these rings that just, you know, gold and silver rings that had the Vice logo on them.
Bijan:Hmm.
Benjamin:And I remember one of the first things that I learned when I joined Vice was that if you saw someone wearing the ring, keep an eye out. That person had a visible sign of power. And you know, it’s funny, the first time I told somebody outside of Vice about the rings, their response shocked me and sits with me to this day. And the only thing they said was, "Oh, my God, that’s absolutely feudal."
Bijan:Yeah, yeah. It was an interesting environment. You know, the company is sort of back now. I don’t know what the deal is with that. But it was a really, it was a place that wanted you to thank them for employing you. And it also took a very certain kind of person to succeed there. A person that management really liked. And they would give certain people opportunities. And they would not give certain people opportunities. And it was very obvious which group you were in.
Benjamin:It’s funny, you know, another parallel that I’m seeing between these two media companies is just the overwhelming role of in-group dynamics in determining who rises through the ranks. And I think that that’s a systemic issue that a lot of companies struggle with.
Bijan:I will say on, like, on this note, Jenny G. Zhang, uh, wrote this piece on her Substack about, um, media’s unspoken talent hierarchy that really, like, it, it really gets into, like, the truth of the thing. And, um, and the quote, the pull quote, which I’m just going to read is:"One of the indelicate truths of media: there are those who are considered talent and those who are not." And like, that’s just true. Um, and I think it’s not just media. I think it’s also, um, entertainment and culture just, just. Generally, like people, you gotta be in, and if you’re not in, you’re not in, you’re out. And it’s hard to determine what gets you in. Sometimes it’s like a big break elsewhere, and like everybody wants a piece of you now. Um, and then you’re, then you’re kind of in. Sometimes it’s just an editor who’s like, I like the things you’re doing. Like, we’re gonna put you on bigger projects. Sometimes it’s, you know, sometimes you’re just like from, you’re just that kind of person that people want to give things to. There are a lot of those people in the world. I am not one of them. Um, I do, I do feel a bit of envy every time I run into one, though I have a couple of friends like that, I’m like, why? People just give you things? That’s crazy, man… but yeah, there, there is, there is an unspoken hierarchy, and I think that’s sort of the thing I’ve been trying to talk around, I guess, a little bit because it’s it’s hard to it’s kind of hard to do. It’s hard. It’s you know when you see it, but it’s kind of hard to describe, um, but it’s it’s the reason you see, you know, certain people in certain places and people who keep popping up and have these long careers. The people who stick around are largely the ones considered talent, um, by the industry. But yeah, again, not every industry is like this. I think, you know, I think the New York City publishing scene is an idiosyncratic beast.
Benjamin:How did your experience at all of these different media companies change the way that you think about work?
Bijan:It really sort of helped me separate writing as personal fulfillment and writing as ambition and also writing is like a career. Um because you you realize that like these companies do not have your best interest in mind most of the time. That sounds like a spicy statement, but it’s not. I mean It’s just like if you want to be a writer and you want to write like say novels working at a blog is going to like not help you do that because It doesn’t it will sharpen your skills like your prose skills and you know maybe you’ll like a really good ear for like dialogue because you’re hearing quotes all the time, but like most of the time it just leaves you kind of tired after your job and then you can’t write anymore. Because you’re like well, I wrote all day So I guess I, I’m not going to work on that novel in my, in my drawer. I think basically once you realize that there are some things that you would like to do that are not part of the job that you’re doing, it, it, like, it becomes very clarifying. Um, like, if you want to publish a short story or something, you’ve got to actually write the short story. Uh, and it’s much harder to do when your job is also writing. Some people are very good at separating those two things and getting books done. Um, but when you understand writing to be like sort of a lifelong thing for you, it, it changes the way you see the companies you work for. The other thing it did was disabuse me of the idea of, of the dream job, there’s just like no, it is all, I, I started to fully understand why people are like, "I do not dream of labor" when asked about their dream jobs. It was very clarifying in a lot of ways, um, but I also saw the value in the work, like that was the other thing, I felt really grateful, and lucky to like be working at these places that would let me like, I dunno, fly to the Canary Islands and expense it to like go interview an art criminal.
Benjamin:How’d you go from being a writer to becoming a podcaster?
Bijan:Yeah, I mean I had always wanted to do it and um, that was the thing Like I I like talking on podcasts. I have a podcast my… Podcasters? If you’re listening you can invite me on. Um But no, I, I, um, was, it was just like sort of, it was, it was a lucky thing. Um, my then boss just reached out to me and was like, "Hey, um, we’re looking for. Somebody who can host an edit like narratively edit podcasts. Like, do you, are you interested?" Um, I don’t even recall having to like submit a resume. Like it was, it was a really like out of the blue kind of thing. Um, and it was, it came at a time when I was just like, okay, well I would like to. I’d like to start doing, I mean, I was telling, you know, my bosses at the time. I was like, look, I want to do more new media stuff because I, felt like that was the way the pendulum was kind of swinging. Um, and, uh, I, I just didn’t have enough opportunities to do that at the place where I was. So it was, it was just like, it felt like, okay, well. I’ve been blogging for a long time. Do I want to keep blogging? Yeah, I’ll try this new thing. Um, because I remembered my, my short lived pivot to television. Uh, and, um, it was like, you know what, it would be nice to learn a new skill. Um, and I did learn a lot. It was the other thing. It was like a really cool job. And I got to host this great show and, um, you know, learn how to work with a producing team. It came out of the blue at the right time, which I was insanely grateful for.
Benjamin:So how did you make your way from podcasting into writing for video games?
Bijan:Got laid off. Uh,
Benjamin:Sounds like a consistent theme here.
Bijan:Yeah, I mean, these are, these are, these, well, I’ve been laid off. I think I’ve been laid off twice. It’s, it’s never fun. I don’t recommend it. I really liked that job. But on the other hand, I was like, well, I got like a few months of severance. I’ll just sit down and see if I can like, like take a month to just like chill out, like, just, just relax a bit. Figure out like the saving stuff, figure out unemployment, and then start to actually think about like, well, what do I actually want to do? And actually, the craziest thing was the timing, because before that, I called my friend who’s a video game writer. And I was like, look, man, I’m kind of, I’m tired of journalism. I sort of want to do more fiction stuff. And I really like games and I like writing for games. And by that point, I’ve been like writing like small games. And just doing that kind of stuff for a while. I was like, look, man, I’m, you know, working on this game. I kind of want to do what you do. How do you do it? And he just, he spent like an hour on the phone with me, just talking through like his whole career and just sort of demystifying the whole thing. And, at the end, he was like, yeah, send me your game, man. And I was like, oh, fuck. And so I had to finish this game. I sent it to him. He was like, "oh, this is great. Uh, let me send you like a writing test." Um, and this, he worked at Valve or he still works there. Which Valve is in the studio that they, they, um, own Steam, which is the video game marketplace. They, um, they do Half Life, Portal, um, Team Fortress. Left 4 Dead, all fantastic games.
Benjamin:Incredible games, life changing games.
Bijan:Just they’re, they, they really have like an incredible track record. So he sent me a writing test, it was like, look, we’re, we are not trying to hire you. And I was like, okay, cool. And he was like, yeah, just finish it if you want. Like, feel free, and if you don’t whatever. So I finished It. I sent it to him and suddenly there were plans in motion to fly me up to the studio to like meet everybody and it was like kind of a job interview kind of not and There’s a lot of that in the culture fields. don’t know where you don’t know if it’s like, "Is this a real thing? Is it a fake thing?" So like that that summer, I flew up to their offices for a couple days, and met everybody and hung out and did some interviews and I left with a contract. And that that contract came literally the like the day before I got laid off They were like, hey, here’s a contract to write with us on this thing. And that thing was, I guess it’s now out, Deadlock. Another fantastic game by the way. It was a really wonderful like like I was getting laid off, but also like there was an opening to a new field and it felt really really cool to have those things line up again. So then I spent a lot of time interviewing for jobs, and making games, and learning like unity and I bought textbooks just to read about narrative design and stuff. I guess what I’m trying to say is the utility of that contract was it convinced me that this was a possible career path. Like this could be something that I could switch to. and it was also something I really wanted to do.
Benjamin:I’m curious, what do you think that writers who haven’t worked in the game industry before might not fully understand about being a game writer?
Bijan:I think games are like, they’re a fascinating piece of art because they’re like, you’re making software, but the point is the software has to be fun. And game design is kind of the science of fun. It’s really fascinating stuff. When people ask what I do, I tell them I make up guys and put them in situations because, like, that’s what it is. You, like, come up with these characters and then you, like, smash them together like Barbie dolls. Thinking about like, "How is the player going to move through this world? How do we signpost it? How do we design the world so that they feel smart when they’re walking through it?" Like, "Oh, I discovered that." Like, no, the designer put that there and you, the designer wanted you to feel smart and they wanted that feeling. Anyway, so like, video game writing is sort of like, like any writing, the science of trying to evoke feelings and to, to, to convey a story. And I think writing for games has a bunch of really interesting constraints, which I really like because you can’t just like, you don’t just hand in a script and like say, "this is the game." You got to talk to gameplay. You got to talk to art. You got to talk to design. And you know, you’re making this thing together and it’s a really fun collaborative thing. I think the other thing is that the constraints are the constraints. Like if level design is like "look, we got this cool fucking level like give us a reason for it," like you just do that. If you’re a writer who is captable of writing a lot of different things, game writing is something that you should seriously consider because if you’re really good at being able to jump between tones and styles, game writing is, is going to be like, it’s, it’s really interesting cause you get to do all of that stuff.
Benjamin:Sounds like a real playground for the craft.
Bijan:It really is. Um, and also like, yeah, it’s, there’s like nothing beats the feeling of looks like, I don’t know, coming up with a character and that having somebody else, like make them real, like it’s so fucking cool. That game that I was talking about earlier with, my friend at Valve that I sent him, it was one of my first times working with like a team and I was, you know, I was like, we had an artist, we had a programmer, we had a, we had a couple musicians and sound designers. And it was really amazing to like, be like, okay, this is, this is the character. This is what I want it to look like. But like, this is my idea. What do you have? And they would come back with something like, totally not what I imagined, but brilliant. Like it was like, it fit better than I thought that anything I could have thought of. And it was just that feeling of like, Oh yeah. Oh yeah. We’re like really cooking here. Like this is, this is it. This is, this is good. The sound is good. The art is good. The thing moves, right. Like you can, it’s very slick. Like it, all that stuff was, it was, it was, it’s really, it just doesn’t get old.
Benjamin:I mean, it’s just watching the work of a team come together.
Bijan:Mm-hmm
Benjamin:Whether you’re working on a game or a movie or a podcast or a TV show, it really is. It’s it’s, it’s fucking magical.
Bijan:Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I think games especially like, because, I mean budgets I will say like different studios have different budgets, but like, it’s just nice to. I don’t know, if you work at a bigger studio, you can just like, " I’m gonna like, yeah, hire this voice actor. I’m gonna just, just, just to see if we can do this scene. Like, I’m gonna write it, and we’ll see if the scene works. And I’ll hire this person at union rates just to do it for like an hour." And you could just do that. You can, if you’re, I mean, again, it depends on the studio. I’m not saying that we do that, because that’s, that’s not the case. But, I’ve heard people tell me this. And yeah, it’s some places are just like, yeah, you can hire people or whatever. It’s like just figure out the best way to like tell the story. Um, I think that the part is, is really, it’s, it’s, it just doesn’t get old. It’s really fascinating.
Benjamin:What was the biggest challenge as you made that transition into games writing?
Bijan:Um, I think it was the same as going into like, this is the second time I’ve made a hobby, a career. Uh, so I was, I was kind of familiar with the feelings, um, which is to say, I think, you know, a lot of people have training. I didn’t have any training. I just had like opinions and some games that I had made and uh a willingness to like just dive into books to figure out what I was missing, but I think it was yeah, it was just the transition was just like It was it was difficult. It was just like I think because the games industry is also kind of in free fall right now um, there have been over the last few years there’s been tens of thousands of layoffs and I think just sort of dealing with the like, okay, I’ve gotten extremely, I’ve been extremely fortunate. Now, how do I not fuck it up, and dealing with those feelings of just like, "Ok, do I actually know how to do this, or have I been fooling myself?" And then, once you get through that part, it becomes a lot easier. Once you’ve, you realize "oh, yes, right, there’s a reason I can do this job. I can actually I can hang." And it did I mean it took a while. I was like anxious all the fucking time I’m still sort of anxious But like, you know, that’s, that’s like, like normal job anxiety.
Benjamin:What were you anxious about in the beginning?
Bijan:Just not being able to do the job. It was, I think in retrospect, an irrational fear, but like, you know, I spent all this time and I spent all these other people’s time. Like they, all these people, like, you know, helped me find this job. And like, am I, if I don’t do it, like I’m going to be letting them down and like my boss, you know, I don’t wanna let him down. I mean, again, those feelings were irrational. Like they were, they were not based in reality because as soon as I sat down to like actually do the work, it was like, "Oh, right, I could do this."
Benjamin:Did your boss know how you were feeling?
Bijan:I think so. Yeah, because he’s incredibly good at just being like, "hey, great job." Like he’s he’s very attentive. It feels like night and day. It’s like, oh my god, this job is so much better than many of the other ones I’ve had, just because the people appear to care. Like they check in with you, um, and they tell you what you’re doing right. And part of this is also, game dev is an iterative process, like you make something, then you see if it’s fun, then you change it, then you see if it’s fun, you just keep going and going and going, and everything in games is like this. So you really, really need a lot of trust between the people working on the thing. He’s very attentive to that dynamic. Um, and it, like it made everything so much easier, like just him being extremely communicative and, uh, and you know, present and also attentive.
Benjamin:What are some of the ways, other than simply caring, what are some of the ways that you feel like your boss really worked to cultivate that trust?
Bijan:I don’t think you can micromanage your way to a good game, so like he gives us a lot of autonomy just to like explore stuff and go read stuff and play games and think about references and do all this other stuff. But I think just like, as my friend put it, it’s like a job that treats you like an adult. It’s really nice. Yeah. Yeah. So just treat your, treat your employees like adults. They know what they’re doing. Cause if they didn’t, why would you hire them?
Benjamin:One thing that stuck out to me that you were saying earlier in our conversation was that in a good game, the player is able to walk around a space and discover things and feel like they discovered them on their own. When the reality is that the designer or the writer, you’re giving them a menu, right?
Bijan:Yeah.
Benjamin:And, yeah, and I feel like there’s a metaphor wrapped up in there about the modern workplace. And I’m curious how you’ve seen that show up in your own experience.
Bijan:I think this is, this is America, right? Our jobs are sort of our identities. And I think when those two things are sort of out of joint where like you have like a job that seems on paper to be really cool and then in practice sucks, it’s, it is kind of really destabilizing. I keep thinking of Severance, not just because the show is good, but like, it also, I mean, among the many other things it does. It does play with that idea of like, as an outie, your job doesn’t fucking matter. You just go and do something. Um, but my point is, Americans, our identities are really wrapped up in our work because we live in a society where, um, individualism is very prized. It’s very Thatcherite. There’s no society, only individuals and families. I also think. the not-so-secret threat that everybody is anxious about in the back of their minds, whether they admit it or not, is, like, if I lose my job, will I lose everything? It’s like you’re one sort of misstep in the workplace away from feeling like everything could be over.
Benjamin:How do you think the narrative about work in the United States at least, has changed since you first entered the workforce?
Bijan:That’s a really good question. I mean, I think, a lot of things have changed. I feel like we’ve seen the sort of the rise of like, there was the apps. Everyone wanted to work in an app. Yeah. And then there was like new media, everyone wanted to work in new media. But I mean, sort of through it all, there was this like, sort of, there was this idea that, you, you like, learn how to code and you’ll get a job. Like, there were these ideas that you could have, they were still paths to a stable life. And I feel like, I’m not sure that’s so true anymore. Um, there’s not like one thing you can do that will put you in an industry that you can stay in for the rest of your life. I don’t think anyone my age or younger probably, I would say no millennial really thinks that they will have a job for the rest of their life. Like they understand that you have to like, have multiple streams of income. Like you have to do 10 different things to just cobble together enough to like live on, um. And I think that that feels kind of universal is horrifying. Also something I think about way too often.
Benjamin:What advice might you have for someone starting out in media? In this pretty bleak landscape right now?
Bijan:If you want to be a journalist, I would say good luck. Do not try and make it your main job until you can actually make it your main job. Because there’s, you just, the freelance grind, you will just not, you will not be able to support yourself and you’ll burn yourself out trying to do it. Get a different job, do something else that doesn’t leave you too tired to like pitch ideas, that’s a really tough thing to find. But I trust that you can find it. I consider it borderline unethical to advise people to be journalists now, um, just because the field has been absolutely decimated. That does not mean I’m saying don’t do it. If you’re driven, I like nothing I say will be able to stop you and godspeed, because we need those people. And also we need a media fourth estate that is not just people who are like doing it because they have family money or because like they can afford it from other reasons. Like that, that produces an impoverished view of the world.
Benjamin:Is there anything that you’ve seen in the media landscape in the last few years that’s giving you even a little bit of hope?
Bijan:I’m going to pass on that question.
Benjamin:That’s cool. Um,
Bijan:The answer is no. Because like, think about it, man. Like what, what, what is what? I don’t know. It just feels like I, I, I know it has to stop eventually. I’m not a total doomer on this, but it just seems like every new development is more and more horrifying. Like LLMs being used to summarize news at the LA Times or whatever. Like, Vox and the New York Times licensing their work to companies like OpenAI is like a really bad sign. And also the fact that it’s just become like harder to know things is really concerning to me. It’s there’s, there’s a lot to fight against. I mean, the other thing, the one thing I do believe in, what I will say is like, I believe in journalists because they’re like, they’re extremely driven. They’re people who like dedicate their lives to this. Not because like, just because they want to, but also like, because it’s like the thing they do. Like it’s, it’s a, it’s as natural as breathing. And I, I admire all of my peers who are still in the industry. Cause that’s, it’s hard as fuck. But I know, I mean, they’re capable, they’re talented. All they need is like someone to publish their, their stuff and pay them enough to like live on. And they’re pretty good, man. I will say, I don’t think it’s a surprise that Wired is covering the Trump White House really well because those are all former Gawker people or many of them, not all, but lots of them are, they’re all people who are used to like having this adversarial pose. But also like spending time just trying to know stuff, like talking to people and doing reporting and trying to know things about the world and know true things about the world and then tell people about those true things. And I, you know, it’s like this, it’s this, I think when it, journalism is a really incredible process. I think the process is kind of the point. But yeah, I trust the people who do it implicitly, I think. You know, they’re some of the best, some of the best of us.
Benjamin:That feels like a wonderful place for us to wind things down. Before I let you go, um, couple of things. One, where can people find you on the internet?
Bijan:I’ve been spending lots of time on Bluesky, um, which is my handle is @bijan.bsky.social. And yeah, I’m on Instagram. I have an itch page. But yeah, I’m mostly, mostly posting on Bluesky. Cause like, what am I going to make short videos? I don’t know, man. Video editing is fun, but it’s like, and audio editing, very fun. It’s more work than just blasting off a post. Just writing something down. Getting rid of a cursed thought.
Benjamin:Cool. And before I let you go, is there anything else that you haven’t had a chance to share and think we should know?
Bijan:No, no. I mean, I think that’s, that’s everything. I mean, feel free to play my games if you want. I think they’re sometimes fun occasionally. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I’ve had a great time.
Benjamin:Thank you. This was delightful. Workface is produced by Hear Me Out, a culture strategy firm for leaders with the courage to listen. Our consulting producer is Lina Misitzis. Original music composed by me, Ben Jackson. Special thanks to Rob McRae and Michelle Mattar. To learn more about Hear Me Out, visit hearmeout.co, follow us on Instagram at @hearmeout_co, or find us on LinkedIn by searching for Hear Me Out.
