The Mindset That Keeps You Stuck In Your Own Business With Michael McNish

What does it really take to build a profitable business, lead with confidence, and stop letting fear run the show?

This episode is a repost of a podcast I did with Michael McNish on the Balls Deep podcast.

We had such a raw, funny, and honest conversation about business growth, salon ownership, and leadership - that I wanted to share it with my audience too..

We talk about the real side of entrepreneurship: the mistakes, the uncomfortable money conversations, the fear of raising prices, the pressure of managing staff, the importance of systems, and the courage it takes to confront what is not working in your business.

If you are a salon owner, hairdresser, barber, beauty business owner, coach, entrepreneur, or service provider who wants to grow a profitable business without burning out, this episode is for you.

In this episode, we talk about:

💜How I built a multi-million-dollar salon business
💜The biggest mistakes salon owners and service business owners make
💜Why pricing is one of the most important parts of business growth
💜How undercharging can quietly destroy your profit
💜Why business owners need to understand their numbers
💜The fear of raising prices, leading staff, and making hard decisions
💜How to build a business that can run without you
💜How content marketing and podcast clips can generate real business leads
💜What it means to use masculine and feminine energy in business
💜Why doing scary things is essential for growth
💜How business coaching helps owners face the truth and take action

Key moments:

00:00:00 Intro
03:00 How one podcast clip pulled 1.2M views
04:30 Masculine and feminine energy in business
12:00 Sales, leadership, and showing up
16:00 Public speaking and confronting fear
22:30 Why Caitlin became a business coach
27:30 The two biggest business mistakes she made
35:00 The biggest fears salon owners face
42:00 The free, cheap, and committed client framework
48:00 How to raise prices without losing clients
1:02:00 Time audits and outsourcing
1:08:00 Outgrowing your partner
1:15:00 The simple steps to get unstuck

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👉Connect with Michael McNish

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAp09ZrcqwJL8Nisxn9w3792CtydL5Q6t&si=6brI-3vb5bJnB8q-

https://www.facebook.com/michaeldavidmcnish

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👉Find out more about how we can work together:

https://iconiccoaching.com.au/coaching/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey guys, this week's episode of Tell Me About It Podcast looks a little different to my normal episodes, and that is because the long story short of it is I did not have time to get you a podcast this week. So I had a little procedure on Monday when I've had many, many times before, and I'm absolutely of perfect health, perfectly fine, everything. And then for the next four days I lost my voice and it's only just come back to life. So being that I've left my producers no time to end out a new podcast, what I have instead done is given you guys a little bit of a treat. I'm sorry that you can also hear Coco squeaking away in the background there as soon as I start recording this video. But a few months ago, my incredible friend Michael McNish invited me to be on his podcast, Balls Deep. And Michael is one of the most intriguing, interesting, intelligent, funny, great people ever. And I'm not going to tell you too much about him or really about what this episode is about because I'd love for you to listen in. But it was one of my favourite conversations, and it was awesome. And I hope you love it as much as I loved recording it with him. So back to normal programming next week. But for today, please enjoy my app with Michael McNish on the Balls D podcast. I deeply upset the manosphere this week, and it's been my highest performing podcast I've ever released. And it's had over it's had over 1.2 million views on Instagram. What? I've had 7,000 new followers on my business page and my podcast page.

SPEAKER_05 1:31

So how did you do what? What the hell?

SPEAKER_01 1:34

I'm a good producer who creates great clips, but I spoke about.

SPEAKER_06 1:41

I think we're ready to go. Um Caitlin, I've just had a fantastic conversation with you, and I wish I recorded it.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

I know. It's always the way, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:50

Now we're recording and we're actually doing the podcast. It's gonna go to absolute shit, and we should just not we're both such a bore.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:58

Yeah, absolutely. I'm so excited that you're here on the show today because um you were actually one of the first people when I sort of said to people, hey, I'm doing a podcast. Do you want to be on it? And you're like, hell yeah, I want to be on the show. Is it because it's called Bulls Deep that you wanted to be here?

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Yes, that's one reason. Also, I get to hang out with you.

SPEAKER_05 2:20

You're too nice.

SPEAKER_04 2:22

I just think we're both really weird and contrasting, and I think that's kind of this beautiful amalgamation, and I think that I'm just excited to kind of see where it goes today.

SPEAKER_06 2:31

Well, for those of you who don't know who Caitlin is, where have you been all your life? Um, I think you need to get with the program. Now, Caitlin's a fantastic business coach. She actually works with people who do a lot with hair. So we're talking hairdressers, barbershops, and we even talked before about dog groomers. So she's got a dog groomer.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

I do.

SPEAKER_06 2:49

And my dog got groomed the other day. Um, I spend more on my dog grooming than I do on myself. Um, so the dog gets the paramount stuff. Anyway, um, I picked him up yesterday, and the dog groomers like, so you know, do dog owners, you know, want to get groomed as well at the same time as as their dog? And I thought, what a great business idea. You can both do it and you at the same time. And then she started talking about, oh, we won't, we're not gonna do Brazilians, we're not gonna do any of that stuff. And I said, well, can imagine us go both going into a hydro bath, getting washed together at the back.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Um, and then I can see yourself. I love that you can take yours to the groomer. My rot wheel is great. We just chuck him in the shower, take him to the dog wash, whatever, he's fine. My staffy, I have to stand there and hold the shower door shut while my husband's trying to shampoo her because all she's trying to do is scratch and escape, and it's just this whole, it's a fucking ordeal, to be honest.

SPEAKER_06 3:46

Oh my god. Oh my god. So you've got a podcast too. Oh and and how many episodes have you done so far?

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Oh, I think I just had 28 come out this week. And to be honest, I deeply upset the manosphere this week, and it's been my highest performing podcast I've ever released. And it's had over it's had over 1.2 million views on Instagram. What? I've had 7,000 new followers on my business page and my podcast page.

SPEAKER_05 4:19

So how did you do what? What the hell?

SPEAKER_01 4:22

I had a really good producer who creates great clips, but I spoke about fucking men and how useless they are in the dating pool.

SPEAKER_06 4:33

So, so hold on, backtrack a little bit. This is the Waynesburg rewind. You're telling me that you did a podcast and it went viral, right? It went viral. And so what was the topic again?

SPEAKER_02 4:49

Uh look, it was masculine feminine energy. The snippet that went viral from it was me basically saying that most single men are fucking losers and women don't want to date them in another way. Um was a little bit more neatly packaged than that. Um, but basically the whole podcast, like, I'm in a beautiful marriage, I have the most incredible husband ever. But everyone priored him has been a bit of a pleb. Um, and you know, the whole uh episode was basically that like I'd believe in a successful relationship, all people have to have a bit of masculine and a bit of feminine energy, especially in like what I do. I'm a coach, I'm a business owner, I lead people, I have to be masculine at work, is the only way to be successful in business, and I believe that in my soul. But I also come home. Well, I work from home, but I leave my office, and I have this incredible man who just like takes the bins out and picks up the dog shit and just helps around the house. And it's like I get to just be like a soft girly wife. You know what I mean? It's kind of that, but the snippet was epic.

SPEAKER_06 5:47

I don't they took the best cut out of it. And it I did you post that just on your Facebook page, on your Instagram, and it just took it just and people just started sharing it.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

It has had, I reckon, it's had a it's had like 6,000 comments on it. It's been absolutely fucking insane. Um, I've never had anything like this happen before, and I love that it's kind of happened this week, right before this, because usually I'm on the other side, but today I get to be the guest.

SPEAKER_06 6:12

What do we got? What do I have to say on this episode for it to go viral? Can you just tell me what so we need to talk about masculine and femininity on this on this episode?

SPEAKER_02 6:22

You have to be polarizingly opinionated.

SPEAKER_06 6:25

Right. So oh, so it's almost like I have to be capable of being cast on big brother. If I'm good, if I'm good or maths, if I can go on maths, I am the guy.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

That's kind of like where this whole thing started from because Cam and I were sitting and having like a we love maths, we froth it. It's our wind down, it's our turn our brains off and just look at how pathetic everybody else is. Um men and women, the girls are worse this year, the girls are fucking shocking. Um, but we basically were talking about it, and Cam's like, it's actually really hard to believe that like four men are sitting there saying that by moving into their woman's house, they're emasculated. Like he's like, how fucking ridiculous. Like this 2026. Like, what are people on about? And even, yeah, just like the girls pulling the boys, and just like it's just been it's been a weird, it's been a weird year for MAFs this year. And that's actually where this whole conversation started was like, are people still like this? Like, really? Really? There's not two equal people in a relationship now? What? Why?

SPEAKER_06 7:24

Yeah, um, I mean, so many people have different value systems, don't they? And I think, and um, and but MAFS has brought us all together.

SPEAKER_04 7:32

And so it's United Australia.

SPEAKER_06 7:35

You know, it really has. It's our national anthem, but practically. I think the opening, you know, to be honest, you know, even they mentioned it in parliament. They were talking in question time, and you know, our prime ministers like talking about maths about because they had a session in in the middle of when maths was on, and I think you know, he was referencing it. That's how important that it is.

unknown 7:56

Fuck.

SPEAKER_06 7:57

Um, it should possibly possibly even be in our constitution, and we should have a referendum to to refer and uh and regard, you know, talk to talk about maps.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

It's honestly just one of those things it's like watching a car accident in slow motion, but like you can't look away. Like we need to watch every episode now. Like, if we miss it, we'll watch it back. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 8:16

Like it's yeah. So it went viral, right? And and your podcast is for business, right? Because you're a business coach and you help people grow and scale and get out of their own way. Um so has that actually translated into real business for you?

SPEAKER_02 8:33

I've got two sales calls next week, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 8:36

Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

So it's it my podcast is kind of um, I guess a little bit what yours is, but we were discussing before we started this, which is kind of like I'm alternating between solo app and interview app. So I'm bringing on just cool people doing cool shit. You're actually top of my list, and I haven't even reached out to you yet, which is so annoying, so rude of me. Woo! Um, but then it's kind of like sometimes it's business, sometimes it's life stuff, sometimes it's sharing stories, sometimes it's sharing my opinions, which apparently is what people like from me.

SPEAKER_06 9:05

I love that. See, we're just starting here at balls deep with interviews with awesome people that that I know because I know so many fantastic people. You're one of them. Um and and I'm thinking of some solo episodes, and I was like, what do I call that? It's probably gonna be balls deep with myself or or something or balls deep in myself.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

Yeah, balls deep knows how it's self is um would be difficult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 9:26

Look, where there's a will, there's a way. Uh you've said some really cool things so far that really fascinate me. Number one, about obviously you're creating content and that's translated into business for you. And I think a lot of businesses um we're living in the era of of content. And so content is king, has always been something that we've always said, right? Like it's always been known. Um, Gary Vaynichuk has has been shouting that from the rooftop since the day he was born. Yep, that you need to be creating content, and you created content and went viral from it.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:02

Um you and and you also were talking about, I guess, the topic of it, of masculine and feminine. I'm fascinated by both of these. I actually wanted to talk about the what you said about being masculine in business first. Because that actually stood out to me.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:20

And you and how did you form the belief that you need to be masculine in business?

SPEAKER_02 10:26

You have to be decisive, you have to make tough decisions, you have to be you have to stand your ground. They're not things that naturally come from a feminine part of us. You know what I mean? I also have that. I'm very nurturing, I'm very caring, I love my clients. I'm there, I'm there for them as well. But for the most part of it, leadership, decisiveness, charging, you know, asking for sales, doing sales calls, those sorts of things are not things that are inherently feminine or inherently female. And I think it's it's kind of like I actually cringe when I even have the conversation with myself because I think, oh, masculine energy, feminine energy, like ick. But I also think my husband, for example, is a team leader as well. He was formerly a TAFE teacher. He also ran gyms and things like that. So he's like super assertive and super whatever. But then, you know, recently when I was at home and he could see that I was having a bit of a meltdown, he just came and like bear hugged me and asked me what was going on and what I needed. And in that moment, I was like, wow, that's kind of him going into his feminine, but it's still very like strong and incredible and and beautiful and exactly what I needed in that moment. But normally a man would be like, or somebody in masculine energy would be like, How do I fix you? What are the solutions? Like, you know, that type of vibe. And I think everybody has to have both within them to be successful at adult, really.

SPEAKER_06 11:43

Because we all mix of both energies, right? So like you can be, you could be a male a male, you can be female. Yep. Um, or you could be undecided or whatever, you know, space that you're in.

SPEAKER_08 11:53

Correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 11:54

But we all have a a spectrum of energy in sense of like we we can lean into our masculine, we can lean into our feminine. But that is the masculine doesn't necessarily mean that you're a man.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

No. God no.

SPEAKER_06 12:07

Does it? So not at all. But do you think that the the term masculine feminine still relates to gender, like, and we have a weird sort of response to that.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

Yeah. I I and I think that people take that and run with it in the wrong way, too. I and I definitely I liked what you said there about the sliding scale as well, because there's certain elements of our life that require different parts of us and that scale to move up and down. And I think that I kind of almost believe that people who've got to tell you that they're alpha and they're masculine and they're the men and they're the whatever are usually not. They're usually like the inferior, like bottom of the like really struggling with their masculinity a bit if they've got to tell you. But yeah, I think there's all different parts of our life that demand both. And I definitely don't think that there's rules about one gender has to be one specific energy more than the other. I would say that Cam and I have pretty well balanced, you know. I'd say that you're pretty well balanced.

SPEAKER_06 13:04

Thank you. That's nice. I don't feel balanced sometimes, but but but sometimes I sometimes I don't think we necessarily know what our energy is sometimes in business. And and and it's a fascinating conversation because I remember when I was, um, I think I said this on one of the earlier podcasts, when I was learning sales, I was like too nice at the beginning. Like my energy was like, I don't want to upset them, I want to be polite, uh the corporate Michael. And then when I was when my sales coach said to me, like, you need to be the leader, you need to like be able to slap them, but with love, but not like aggressively. And I had to go, and then I end up swearing at the person over the phone, like, I am the you know, and I went too far.

SPEAKER_05 13:50

And anyway, I got up the phone, and I'm like, oh shit.

SPEAKER_06 13:56

What have I done? Um, but I had to do that in order to find this the space of where my energy sat. Um, you know, when you when you're when you're training your staff, you know, you don't necessarily want to be the dominant energy. You sometimes want to step into your completely.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Yeah. Yeah, completely. I think it's funny you talk about sales because I hate sales in the context of signing up a client, is I hate it. I'm not good at it, I'm the same as you, I'm too emotional. I just get like, well, probably you're not now, but like, you know, I'm too emotional. I just want to cuddle them, and I'm like, I want to be more of that person. But I have a high-ticket closer now, and you would look at her and you would think she's this like soft little glabrous little thing, and holy moly, her own call is the best thing ever. And I love she does that, and I get to do what I like doing the most.

SPEAKER_06 14:43

Yeah. Awesome. So you so you so you're a masculine businesswoman.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

I'd say so. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 14:51

Rock on, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:54

I think a lot I think people think I'm a lot harder or tougher than what I actually am. I think I'm actually quite soft and gooey, but I show up how I need to for that particular task or thing or whatever.

SPEAKER_06 15:08

Do you consciously do that or does it just happen naturally?

SPEAKER_02 15:11

No, I think when I was, I think when I was first uh getting on stages and things like that, and like so I am one of the people that fears public speaking more than death. That is I there is nothing I hate more than public speaking, but I do it because it makes me better and it's good for me. And I think doing really scary things in safe environments is really important for people in business and in, you know, trying to move into that sort of space. And now I'm I'm well versed in it, but I still don't love it, if that makes sense. Um, but I think definitely then I would almost have to consciously put myself into a state before I could go and attack something, even sometimes before certain coaching calls or things like that, I was like, oh, I'm already a bit nervous, but I think that comes with experience. You just kind of lean in and do what you need to do.

SPEAKER_06 15:55

What is it about public speaking that scares you the most?

SPEAKER_02 16:00

I think I care. I really care about delivery and giving value. And I think um I if I'm going into a room, like if it's all salon owners or something, I know that I can usually give one or two things away. When there's staff in the room that complicates things a bit because it's more of a broader, it's not so niche. Um, but I also don't want people to go and invest their money and walk away from something and be like, oh, that was so shitty, or like, you know, I feel like I got nothing out of that. Like it's not only their money, it's their time, you know, they're trusting me to deliver on something. So I think it probably comes from that. I think also, you know, I've been I've I've attended some things before that perhaps were a bit I've left and I've been like, oh, that was horrible. And I'm I'm a I'm a learner, I love learning, I love going into rooms and taking things away, and I always try and find something, but sometimes that's really hard. And I don't want to be that person.

SPEAKER_06 16:51

Yeah, wow. So so you you have a bit of um self- you know, you're really self-aware and you're really aware of like what's going on inside of you. But you're doing it anyway.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 17:02

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

I think like if you wait till you're ready, you'll just never be ready and it'll never happen. So you've just got to decide and do.

SPEAKER_06 17:10

I um really relate to some of the things that you said about like when we confront the thing that scares us the most and you do it, you actually grow s like heaps. So like when I was 13, I went to a I grew up in the country and I went to a little private school in like a 120, 150 students. And we're talking like from primary school to grade 10.

SPEAKER_03 17:31

Like it's just explains so much.

SPEAKER_06 17:36

It does not, I was only there for three years, so shut up. So I was there and um it was in I was in grade eight, so what a what I've been like, 13, 14. And this school uh at the time was doing like a home-based learning.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 17:55

At the so self-paced learning at the time. So it wasn't even classroom. Yeah, well, it was a system from America called ACE ACE, Accelerated Christian Education. And so it was designed for homeschooling, but but they translated it into a classroom so that students could wouldn't be held back by other students. So you could literally go as fast as you wanted and complete the course.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Kind of like a Steiner Montessori type learning where you kind of do the things you're interested in, the things you're good at.

SPEAKER_06 18:28

Not quite. You still had to do like the the the the basic subjects, but if you needed help, you had this you had an American flag and an Australian flag, right? And you put it up top on the desk, and the teacher for that flag would come and help you.

SPEAKER_04 18:46

It was like, I'm dying.

SPEAKER_06 18:49

But it was it was it was so different, but that would only happen for about a year, okay? But as part of all the schools that did this type of education, they had a thing called the convention. And then the convention was like a come together of all the students, home-based learning and schools, to do like a Steadford kind of thing. So I remember offstead. Yeah, you could but you could do art and have it judged against other kids' art and and like a like an echo or a show where you know you're being judged. Um so I wanted to do singing now. I don't know why. Yeah, I wanted I wanted to I I wanted to sing. I can't even remember why I wanted to sing, but I like to sing. So I wanted to do a solo, and as part of my practice of that, I had to stand in front of the whole school when I was 13 or so singing a song by myself, no one around me, literally like someone playing the piano, whatever it was, and I'm singing this song. And I'd never sung in front of like an audience, let alone my school friends in like the school, and my legs were shaking like freaking like jelly, like my knees uncontrollably, and and and they wouldn't stop. I'm like, fucking hell, like I'm even more nervous.

SPEAKER_04 20:08

You're vibrating on stage.

SPEAKER_06 20:09

Like, I'm gonna fall over there wobbling that much. It's like I'm on stilts. Um, one of the kids was laughing, and I don't blame him because it was would have been quite funny. One of the teachers came up and took him out of the assembly because it's like, don't laugh at him. Yeah. Um, but that was the scariest thing. Now, how good ever since that point, standing in front of a room's been easy.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

I love that, and you did it when you were like 14.

SPEAKER_06 20:38

13, 14, yeah. That's wild.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

I love that so much.

SPEAKER_06 20:42

So, like doing acting, doing shows, saying, Is that where the theatre things started? It didn't start there, but being in front of an audience was nothing because it was like I've already done that, I've confronted the fear, and I did it anyway. And even though I was like petrified, I just think your body was petrified. You literally led to being like, I'm so surprised I didn't shit my pants, to be honest with you. Like it was that intense. Wow, but everything else was easy. Now I was still nervous when we did the convention itself because you know, like it's like it had more meaning then because competition, right? Like it's a different energy, but like skydiving, I've done that. Um confronted fear of heights. Um that was like a fear, and I think we all had these these fears that when we even though we still feel it, you just do it, right? And and you grow as a result.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

You have to. I think there's something about just channeling that energy into something else, but could you imagine just not doing things for your whole life just because they scare you and then you just stay the same person that you are like forever? That would be that is more terrifying to me than doing something scary.

SPEAKER_06 21:54

But so many people do that. And I would think people who who are employee, who are employed, they stay in jobs they hate and they don't want to change um or they they just keep going and going people in business main the the the goal is almost to maintain status quo because as you grow you're coming up with new problems and new challenges and and it's risky right yeah um and so you and this is a great transition into the terms of like the business coaching realm um a couple of things uh first I want to know why you wanted to be a business coach like what what why are you in that and secondly I'd love to know like how do you do you find that fear in your clients and uh and and how do we how do how do you approach that how do you help them with that so maybe we'll start with why and then we'll talk about like yeah I went I went I I've always been entrepreneurial.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

I mean I used to sell things at markets I used to make jewelry and I used to just do things when I was really young and then I ended up buying my first hairdressing salon when I was 19 which is crazy to think about actually all the all the way back then. And this is like pre-Instagram I think Facebook was just a new thing like a very very early days service industry really hard but um it was amazing by 22 I had two by 23 I was back to one that was a fuck up by 24 I had two again and then by 25 I was back to one because that was another fuck up and by and then by and then by 27 I opened a barber shop as well and upsized my salon. Things were going really well. So my first salon I turned from when I bought it it had three staff including myself and it was turning over about 150 grand a year. And when I sold it nine and a half years later it was turning over 3.3 million and had 28 staff was a zoo. Could you imagine 28 hairdressers in the same room? It was mental so fun. Did they all smoke in Agassiz sort of during smoke break early days yes in the later days nah and then yeah I had a beautiful barber shop which I started as well which went from you know zero to seven staff within three years and then I sold that too but you know throughout that time I was doing fashion weeks all over the world and doing lots of teaching in terms of like colour and cutting training and those sorts of things but I realized there was actually a really massive gap in like business education. And it was you know through meeting you and meeting Ben and everything that actually got me off the floor. I was fully off the floor by the time I was 27 um and you know all my staff were running things for me. I had a management team and then yeah people basically just started going hey how do you do it like how do you whatever and I was like I could monetize this how did you how did you monetize it?

SPEAKER_06 24:42

Like how did you start? Okay so I realized look I was also um a friend of Carissa's and client of Carissa's as well and I sort of spoke to her about it and I So for everyone listening Carissa Hill is is also a fantastic coach and she's been helping a lot of like beauty salons and hair salons as well yes yes so she was helping me she was helping me with my marketing then I went on to Ben obviously it was just a different style of marketing and things like that too.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

That's Ben Simkin everyone Ben Simkin, sorry I just I don't feel like you're my friend lounge. I know who who she means but you probably have no freaking idea so I don't know you did lots of those mentoring sessions too that's how I met you so it was great but um you know I was talking to Carissa about it and I was like because she's very like marketing social media branding like that's really her niche and I think that's awesome. But I was like I actually feel like we need more like as boring as it is like financial literacy like sales skills like team leadership like that sort of thing. And I was like what do you think? Do you think I should do and she was like I think you would be amazing at this and I think you should 100% do it. And then I sold five people into it before I'd even built anything. So that was kind of people just asked and I was like yeah I'm actually starting it.

SPEAKER_06 25:50

But why why did they ask so they just came to you and said how did you how did you build your business?

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Yeah and so mine was all networking I haven't done any paid marketing until last year.

SPEAKER_06 26:00

None and so how did you come up with the price?

SPEAKER_02 26:03

How did you work that I had a stab so back then I was 250 a week because I know that most I know my people right people that I'm teaching are literally me when I was 25. That's why like it's liter that is literally who they are and my clients are anywhere between 25 and probably 45 now there's a couple of old ones as well but like they're still at that sort of stage of their career but um I just had a stab. I just went ah 250 a week sounds good. If I get four clients that's a thousand bucks that's amazing and then I yeah basically signed five people on had to start recording things and had to start putting things out there and met my friend who built websites and got him to put it all together for me and I just started and I think my first year I turned over like 400 grand or something.

SPEAKER_06 26:45

That's great for a first year it was huge. What everything you touch except the maybe the two mistakes that you made when you were building your salon but like I talk about that too I'm like please don't do what I did. Like but I think there's a lot that that's probably what makes you a good coach because you've learned from the mistakes but you've also learned from from the successes and people are probably drawn to your success more. They go oh my like if I said hey I've built a you know a five million dollar um salon or three million dollars uh and they're they're sitting at a hundred that two hundred thousand or three hundred thousand and they're and they're like well how do I learn how to do that then all of a sudden you're the expert because you've achieved a level of success.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Totally I think people talk about the fuck ups enough either like I've learned more from that than I have from the things I've done right. Are you kidding?

SPEAKER_06 27:34

So where where did you fuck up?

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Um okay so the I had the second salon so the first salon was going really horribly I had a whole bunch of renters and staff like subcontractors and staff I thought I was doing great because there was like lots of money coming in but there was like lots of money going back out again and I also didn't realize that I was the main income earner because I didn't track anything. I didn't look at anything I just hope for the best. I've got dad I'm like spending like I fucking live in a castle like you know I'm just like throwing money away like you do when you're young and dumb and full of cum and that's what you just do on your weekends. But um then sorry I'm really derogative sometimes go for it. Then um yeah basically I thought oh well I want another business because I want more money and one came up it was a great little salon so then I bought that um and then that was also horrible and then I had a and I was it was just me and the old owner was renting a chair off me in that salon at that time and then I had an apprentice as well but that was it. So I kind of split my time between both and then I had a really horrific motorbike accident. I got hit while I was riding my motorbike by a car that was driving on the wrong side of the road and so then I couldn't work for about five six months and then all my businesses fell apart. Yeah hell no systems yeah no systems no management none of my staff stepped up none of them took on any of my clients like they were just awful um and so then it was kind of like I was I made the decision while I was literally still in hospital that like the second one just has to go. So I just sold it for what I bought it for but in a you know bit of debt and whatever it was fine 50 grand I think something like that. And then yeah just went back and that rebuilt the first one. The second one that was the failure um I went into business with my then boyfriend's sister and I loved her and she was great and it was in country big and I was always going to be like a just a silent partner just do some of the training and stuff like that because that's kind of was my world and then I broke up with him and she just kind of like let me out and she took over my half and that was kind of it. So you know it was kind of an easy exit out of that one but I think be careful who you go into business with.

SPEAKER_06 29:44

The problem with a lesson like that is sometimes you don't know you don't know what you don't know and you it's like no one goes into a relationship with somebody whether it's in business or personal thinking that they're going to be an absolute arsehole. Yeah completely and he was yeah but you so you but you didn't you wouldn't have gone into it had you have known or thought um and uh and even like it's it's it's difficult. And so um some some lessons of values that we have sometimes you might be aware of the lesson but it's actually very hard to to to be good at to be good at re you know avoiding that mistake because some things are just hard to do and it just takes practice, doesn't it? Like it just takes awareness and experience of going through the wrong one or going to the right one to kind of kind of know.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

And I think now it's like even like probably the biggest lesson out of both of those is you know I say to people I'm like if you want three, four, five salons you can have them you can probably even have them within six months of each other but you have to get the first one like working like the first one has to run right. Then it's just like copy paste, copy paste, copy paste.

SPEAKER_08 30:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

A couple of little adaptions for wherever they are but I also know that in my experience business partnerships work about five percent of the time in this industry. Yeah different industries different things especially if you've got more investment style business partners and those sorts of things like my husband had a kind of like a behind the scenes owner of his gym and then he was the other owner that was kind of the face of it that works. When you've got two people kind of facing it I think it's can be messy.

SPEAKER_06 31:19

It definitely can be can also be the end of relationships too very quickly because you're mixing you're mixing because there's no break from between like a personal relationship and the business. So work doesn't stop. It's like a constant never ending thing and if business is going badly what happens to your relationship and therefore totally it's it's all connected and it's yeah a hundred percent a hundred percent so yeah that's kind of that's where I went wrong don't do what I did. So so the biggest the biggest number one lesson so far is be careful who you go into business with if you're going to do that. The second thing that you said was make sure if you're going to expand your business make sure like the first one is is right first. That's that's systemized money's good you understand your numbers you've got the right people you aren't required potentially in the business to be actually doing the do.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

That's exactly what I was going to add in there is it's like if your business can't run without you that's not a business it's a job and a very stressful one at that very stressful very expensive one you know I'd rather go and be employed.

SPEAKER_06 32:25

But do you look at okay so you know you you got these you've had these lessons but you've had amazing successes.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 32:32

Do you look at the success as the money?

SPEAKER_02 32:36

No absolutely not I work three days a week now.

SPEAKER_06 32:39

But like when you when you had the salon right and you said like you built it you had 28 staff and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Yeah what what what was the win for you um well yeah I sold it for a shit ton of money sold it for over half a million dollars which was awesome.

SPEAKER_06 32:53

Was that the win?

SPEAKER_02 32:54

That was one win. There's a few wins I think um look one of the deciding factors of selling that business was that I didn't feel I was giving 100% to anything I was doing. So I was like pulled in all different directions. That year was a pretty like the year that I decided to sell was actually the year that I left my ex-husband I had a health scare and I went that's not something I love anymore. I feel like all I do is put out fires. I feel like there's just constantly something going on it just takes up too much of my time even though I wasn't on the floor it was just occupying everything that I had and I was like what I love is coaching. I love the flexibility. I love helping people I love as a collective you know helping my industry because I think that's really important as well in an industry that's always undercharged and always you know whatever. It's a whole other tangent. But so I think for me I was holding on to that because it was so financially lucrative. And I think by letting it go that I was able to like actually put my focus into other things. So the successes would definitely be the money. I think the flexibility it gave me I think it's um I think you know at the end of the day we need to buy more time that's the only way you can do it. Wow so I think helping people in their careers is also another one we had lots of do you miss it?

SPEAKER_06 34:10

Do you miss the business? Why not? Why don't you miss it?

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Because right now I get to get up at you know I wake up early but I get out of bed at like eight o'clock, walk down to my office, plug in, see my awesome clients and I get to help them with their business and I shouldn't say this because I've got sell on owners that I work with but I actually think sometimes the most money and the most flexibility is being the middleman. It's being the salesperson or it's being the coach that's coaching the other business owners like I don't have to do what they do. I just get to help them with their bit and they pay me for that. And I think that's probably more relevant as time goes on. You know, the service industry will always have a place it has to but um I think the most flexibility and freedom and happiness for me has been yeah being that middle person.

SPEAKER_06 34:56

Right. But so you found you you found your space that sort of get lights your spark a little bit. Like so you you you you you found what you love. Yeah you you you're able to scale that and help more people. So like in terms of your coaching right now how many people do you do you work with at the moment?

SPEAKER_02 35:14

89. Whoa wow so we've got about 50 of them are on memberships and stuff like that. So they'll be like they pay weekly fee we catch up monthly or quarterly depending on what they're doing and they're either indie business owners so they're like rent chairs, home sellers that thing or they're big sell-on owners to like multiple locations.

SPEAKER_05 35:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

And then we have the other 40 ish um like sort of casual people so they'll just book as they need they usually just buy a package and then they'll just book as they need throughout the year or whatever. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_06 35:44

And going back to I guess what we spoke about about the the fear you know like you know little 13 year old Michael singing a song in front of the school is a leg shaking. What what do these salons fear the most? What's their biggest fear?

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Okay, there's a lot. So the most I think the the biggest fear at the moment is there's it's very much if you've got staff there is a massive skill shortage believe it or not and people are really struggling to find staff. So I do think that people think by asserting themselves or their staff we're gonna walk out on them and leave them high and dry. I think another fear is that if they enforce prices or if they do anything like that, their clients are also going to up and leave them. It's a lot of rejection based stuff. I also think there's a lot of people who yeah just kind of like are scared to leave it in the hands of their staff because they don't have the right structures or it's just it's those types of fears of just like I need someone to kind of give me a spine and tell me what I need to do and tell me that I'm doing the right thing. It's a lot of validating things.

SPEAKER_06 36:45

And and do you how do you how do you help them with that? Like how do you help them overcome that fear?

SPEAKER_02 36:51

First we do a deconstruction so I basically expose all the problems in their business which is very confronting.

SPEAKER_06 36:57

You're shit because of this.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Yeah pretty much I but I can't wrong with you well I think one of the hardest things is you know there's a lot of selling owners I speak to barbershop owners clinic owners that sort of thing they work like 60 70 80 hours so I think the thing we do with business owners is we go oh yeah so we we're on the floor only three days a week but then they're spending like three four five other days in the background doing the marketing doing the whatever goes on the the finances the wages that stuff and so I'm like cool so how many hours do you work in and on your business? Let's like start there where that's week month or whatever. And I'm like cool and then you've paid yourself you know a thousand dollars a week is usually a pretty normal amount for people and I'm like cool so you pay yourself about $12 an hour like that's where we're starting like is that okay for you and they're like oh I've never looked at it like that I'm like you know that reminds me of like the biggest loser.

SPEAKER_06 37:47

Remember the biggest loser the the first starting point was the reality check. It was hey here's the truth like here's a mirror right you're gonna look and you may not like what you see but here's what it is and you know what that's confronting fear right there. Because I know that in my experience in business when I've had some really tough times I would avoid looking at my bank account. I don't want to look at it.

SPEAKER_03 38:15

I wouldn't answer my fucking phone like there was a time where I was just like I'm not answering my phone it's gonna be someone chasing money now got a letter in my mailbox and I know it's from the tax office and I know I've got an unpaid debt.

SPEAKER_06 38:25

I'm not fucking opening that because I don't want to ruin my nose go away I'm going back to bed because it's safe and no one's hurting me a hundred but like if you can't see like that's the first step of of anything is is being honest with ourselves and that is freaking scary.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Yep I also take them through the outcome framework which is something you gave me as well which I love so much. It's pretty cool isn't it it's fucking cool as soon as I was like right well this is getting implemented at the start of everything this is Black Lab. I love it.

SPEAKER_06 39:03

We actually spoke about that the very first episode of this like with of Ball Steep with with Tracy and I went through that again because when I it's such a cool little framework to go through focusing what you want but in order to know what you want you kind of got to know where you are sometimes and um but that fear so when they so the first step when you're working with a client to help them overcome their stuff is here's the truth and now we're gonna work out what you want.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 39:32

And then from your pathway you could I'm I'm assuming that you'd create a plan, an action plan of here's what we're going to do. Yeah and then you hold them accountable to implement that plan.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

Yeah. And then I take them through um one of the earliest things I take them through to is what I call hustle which is a consultation retailing rebooking process and that usually makes them money like straight away because I feel like a lot of people become really complacent with their clients and I'm like you need to be doing better consultations, upgrading services, closing retail sales like doing things that immediately get you a bit more money because as soon as they can see that first of all it builds trust with me. Second of all they almost feel like a bit of like oh like okay it can breathe a little bit now. Because a lot of people when I meet them dead up to here you know not making enough income to pay the bills like it's it's very it's often very money focused.

SPEAKER_06 40:23

I think everyone can relate to that in all areas of life. Actually anyone listening to this can relate to this because like we've all got problems and we probably define our problems by the symptom or how we feel about the problem. Right?

SPEAKER_01 40:42

The problem can be the symptom can be the problem.

SPEAKER_06 40:45

And that just becomes a cycle right and and then the negativity cut starts coming in the fog starts to become thicker and you just feel right um and so do you find that like what so the common problems that people are having is like cash flow as you said staff like they're feeling like you know they can't find good staff so they're stuck and I so I have to be on the tools or I have to do the work because I can't find good staff.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 41:16

Are there any other common ones?

SPEAKER_02 41:18

Lots they're never priced properly ever the pricing yeah as soon as I take them through my pricing structure of actually working out costs adding in taxes profit product then spitting out the price then they're like holy fuck that's why I'm not making any money and I'm like yep so we do that pretty early on in the pieces pricing is a scary thing for a lot of people right yeah especially when I'm telling people they've got to put up 40-50% to even break even.

SPEAKER_06 41:41

But every freaking coach tells people to increase their prices.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

I ever met a coach that says you're too expensive mate you need to lower your price I tell them to adjust their prices to the right thing because I think some people actually are pricing okay but maybe they're not busy enough. There might be a different problem for the most part people actually so severely underpriced that they're almost paying people to sit in their chair. You know and that's really scary but they just price based on everyone around them. What do you think price means for the service like service what why we have this energy around pricing like what is it what do we make it mean look I'm very I charge a lot now and I do that because I want people who are committed and if I charge little then they won't do the work. If they charge if they charge them a lot then they go okay fuck I'm doing it. I you know I believe that's also the same thing with pricing and sell on services if you charge higher you get better quality clients I actually feel like there's less problems with better quality clients.

SPEAKER_06 42:38

Yeah you probably see that all the time well interesting it's almost like okay um I don't believe I actually don't believe that increasing prices necessarily equals a quality client I don't always agree with that. Yeah I agree I don't think it'd be a universal rule. However what it does mean is a level of commitment from the client because you know there's a there was a saying um there's uh sales coach I'm I'm a memory is being unlocked here right I could I could watch that coming alive in your light bulb whoa like a annualism going on there just like that so basically the idea was there's we come against like across three kinds of people we come against free pool these are people that want everything for free right and the free pool typically don't implement and they don't they don't follow through and they typically will blame everyone else for their problems yeah the poor little me's like if you can't do it for free. I'm not interested because I don't want to pay for I don't value your services enough to to to pay for it. So I'll get the free ebook that you're putting online but I'm not gonna pay for your help because I just want the free thing right free event actually free pool. I one of my first early jobs was in White Goods right and um selling these stoves. And this is when do you remember Clive Peters?

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 44:05

All right. So Clive Peters used to have cooking demonstrations for the stoves. The purpose was to bring the to get buyers. So what they did is they have a chef or some cook come into the the Clive Peters and and demonstrate how to cook and then you could sample and eat some of the food. So on this I'm going around to all the different stores supporting them right and I kid you not the same couple I saw at all the different stores getting the free food. They want the free food did they buy the stove? No they never had any intention of buying right they want they're they're the free pool right now the second group of people were the cheapple.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 44:52

The cheaple want everything for cheap but they want high they want everything great.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:57

Right. So they don't want to they will pay a little bit of money but they're not really prepared to, you know, they don't want to spend any more they don't r and so but then there's the people that are willing to do whatever it takes.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 45:08

Right? These are the people that actually want the results so much that they actually they'll move mountains to make it work. Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:16

I feel like those cheapel two are almost the ones that they might like invest a little bit in something but then they'll walk out and do nothing with it. So they just watch things happen. They watch other people doing things but they never actually do either it's like oh it's just like it's just enough to like tip in to s to show you that I went there but I've done nothing with it.

SPEAKER_06 45:31

Yeah. I bought the school course school for nine dollars for months. Yep. I've got that but I haven't done it yet and I haven't implemented it because it was cheap. Right. And again I didn't really value it because it was cheap right I I buy my get my free book just pay the shipping. Okay. Well you might get the book but I how many times have you been bought offers like that? And how many times how we implemented it like actually did it. Whereas if you spent $5,000 on this course are you going to go oh don't worry about it. It's fine you know it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

Correct. But do you also think too though that's like it's the same with business coaching. Like I get it all the time and someone will be like oh so and so is like $200 a week I'm like do you actually think someone can change your business and help you do that for $200 because that's okay you can go and do it with them. Like that's fine. If you want to pay that you can pay that.

SPEAKER_06 46:25

Why do you think they're so cheap? Exactly like if they were so good at delivering the result and they could gen like 10x your business what do you think that's worth yeah and if they could do that if you could do that for people would you charge $200?

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:42

So what do you think that means about their service? By the way that was a deduction handling tip for those of you out there who are a high value illusion.

SPEAKER_04 46:51

Yeah it's good.

SPEAKER_06 46:52

So there's different type so the quality is more about the commitment right the commitment to follow through because as a coach I think you want them to get results. And so in order for them to get results they've got to be they've got to be committed.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

And and and and like you know for a long time we did just like group streams and stuff like that and we found that we weren't getting the results so we kind of took that away because I was like you know like if these like just knowing my people they're crazy ADHDers they're all like creative people they're very kinesthetic. They need to be engaged you know all the time if I throw videos at people they're just like oh this is so boring. But if I'm working with them guiding them through it whatever. I know that limits me because it's you know one to many makes more money whatever but that's not the goal. But it's like yeah everything is about the result. I don't want you to come in here and get the result. I fire people who don't do the work. I let them go. I feel like it opens space for someone better.

SPEAKER_06 47:42

Yeah. Yeah. Do you think a salon should do that for one of their clients? Yes absolutely at what point would should a salon owner fire a client?

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Oh God there's so many. I have a whole training on it uh red flag clients it kind of is but look I feel like a lot of the times you'll get those people that just have absolutely unrealistic expectations and you know now with the rise of AI people are bringing in these incredible hair and beauty photos like that's not hair and also like what you've got that's not possible for you. And like you know for me our rule of thumb in in our salons was always like if you have someone in your chair they would always pay a hundred dollar deposit before their appointment I was like if you have someone in your chair and you don't think you can do it give them their money back and send them on the way and just forego the appointment because I would rather have a one star review for sending someone away than a one star review for fucking someone's hair.

SPEAKER_06 48:33

Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? So and so there's a res so you're telling these your your clients business owners that you know we need to increase prices, right?

SPEAKER_02 48:46

Adjust them so they're profitable, yes.

SPEAKER_06 48:48

So to create profit, right? So two ways to generate more profit. Number one, increase the price. Yep. Secondly obviously is increase margin, improve profitability.

SPEAKER_08 48:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:59

Right. You do both at the same time by 10% here and 10% here it immediately you've got like a bit more bit more.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

So we do three things with that actually. So one of them is lower cost. That's one of the first things we do too we like literally do like a cost um what do you call it audit like an audit on all their expenses and what they spend. Some of them just spend so much money on stupid shit. You know like $300 a month on a fucking phone bill are you kidding me? When you've got no money otherwise. So the first thing is cost audit second thing is time audit. How much time are you wasting? How much time are you allowing for these services? How much time are you allocating? A lot of service businesses use 15 minute time allotments. I'm like okay but if something's 40 minutes then that's five minutes in the bin in you know if you're if because you can only book for 45 minutes. So I'm like if you can then change it to five minute time allotments then you're only charging for the 40 minutes because it's only taking 40 minutes. You're not kind of throwing that five minutes in the bin. So those sorts of things and also a lot of people spend way too much time on services. I'm like how does it take you two hours to a fucking haircut? Come on. You know what like really like what what are you doing with them?

SPEAKER_06 50:02

Like and then um and then yeah well maybe they don't want to tell you what we're doing with them. And that's why they've got the repeat business let me tell you.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

Yeah and then if they've got that low enough and that is what it is they never say to undercut obviously you can't but then it's like from there then we would adjust this the price up. So yeah it's a combination of things.

SPEAKER_06 50:20

Because there's only and I learned this from Jay Abraham and some people don't know who Jay is but Jay Abraham is one of the founding fathers of bus of of business consulting effectively. And so there's only three ways to grow a business number one is to get new customers new clients number two is to get them to spend more money and the third way is to get them to come back more often.

SPEAKER_00 50:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 50:41

And so and then if you increase each of those three areas by say you know a percent 10% each it's 10% times 10% times 10% and you get geometric business growth. Yeah and so in terms of in terms of truth like and I love the word it's a scary word but audit. And like how sexy is an audit oh yeah baby let's audit my business yes yeah and it's really not sexy because no one likes to be audited and there's that's the truth but from the truth we create a plan to actually like you said time audit which I love I love tasks and time audits yeah um looking at your numbers and working out from a cost point of view where where we're at and looking at the business model and going all right here's what we're charging here's the gaps what does the price need to be as you said recalibrate or reset that pricing so it's not based on what we think people will pay. It's what it needs to be. Absolutely so what are ways obviously there's different ways to approach pricing because some people just do the fuck it method and the fuck it method is I'm just raising the address and barber and salon owner ever until they meet me.

SPEAKER_03 51:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 51:59

Well I'm just raising my price and you can copy that's it. Done.

SPEAKER_08 52:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 52:05

What are ways that you help people to raise their prices? Because I know like there's lots of different ways of which and I guess it comes down to value in many respects and how we position things. But what are some things that you do to help people raise their prices?

SPEAKER_02 52:19

Yeah I mean and I think you are as I'm an NLP master as well. So I do a lot with their mindset and their self-worth and their value and those sorts of things too. But I think honestly like people come to me because they've got a problem I then show them all the other problems that they have and then I kind of it's almost it's that opportunity cost thing where it's like okay if you don't do this by the end of this year you're going to be you know another 100 200k in the hole or you're going to be you know in the same spot you are opposed to if you just do these few things that are difficult and yes they hurt and yes they suck and yes you might have fucking Bob throw a hissy fit because she's got to pay an extra $7 in her foils but like at the end of the day do you want to keep looking after Bob and staying in the same spot or do you want to just do the hard thing that I'm telling you to do that you're paying me so much money to tell you to do and then you're going to end up you know astronomically further along than what you thought. And so I think it's kind of like yeah that opportunity cost of if you stay doing the same thing or if you do the things that are hard and painful and scary.

SPEAKER_06 53:16

What typically happens when they raise their price like tell explain to me then the disaster that unfolds when when someone raises their prices.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

Yeah worst case scenario someone will kick off be like oh my god that's gone up so much whatever it's like that's fine you can go down the road like I give them strategies around that too I'm like that's cool just send them to just cuts just send them to wherever like it doesn't you know there's there's plenty of chop shops and plenty of people that are like turn them in turn them out don't engage don't bite back don't you know get angry or whatever because then it's just two people end up yelling at each other. That's the worst case scenario and I reckon it happens less than 1% of the time really like it's that fear of oh my God and I'm like well that's you projecting your own fears about your own pricing and your own worth I'm like let's talk about that like let's unpack that now.

SPEAKER_06 54:01

So do people need to unpack it before they do it then like do they need to actually like like does any business owner that wants to raise price but has resistance of fear around it they need to work on mindset prior to doing the price right?

SPEAKER_02 54:12

Completely I've got a client um Shay she will love me talking about this she is actually from Hi Shay nice to meet you from my hometown. Shay came to me she was solo girl with just an apprentice and she was this was last February last year she was turning over $3800 a week expenses are somewhere around that five to six grand a week mark. So husband's topping up everything whatever I had five conversations with her over three months about putting her prices up adjusting them they were about 20 to 30% across the board and she finally did it and she was like no one's complained. No one's left me what do you mean I could have been charging this a year ago and now in one year she's upgraded her salon bought a new car turning over $11,000 a week and she's only added one more staff member in and she's happy and the main thing was charging more.

SPEAKER_06 55:03

Yes that was her main thing and so wow I mean it sounds so simple. So it sounds simple but people don't do it because they're scared is that right well I think that I think that um look maybe this is going back to my feminism conversation earlier.

SPEAKER_02 55:22

Hairdressers are told from the day that they leave school and start hairdressing that they're dumb they're gossipy they can't charge enough it's just an easy job it's this it's that it's the other from people who have no fucking idea actually how hard it is it's hard on the body it's hard on the mind you're like working with people all day you've got to be on all day like on crack happy every day and as well as that why we do the same apprenticeship as a plumber as a mechanic as a Sparky as a builder as a brickie and you're telling me I can't charge the same so I think that's kind of like drummed in from a very young age. And then we also work for people who also don't really know the system and maybe they've been in the business a long time and they're just coasting along and they're kind of happy like how many people do you meet that have had a hairdressing well you might not but I meet them all the time had a hairdressing salon for 20 30 40 years and they sell 50 grand. That's you out after like 30 years of slumming it behind a chair wow that's sad.

SPEAKER_06 56:17

It's it's like everything I know I I've met so many people that are in business because they just sort of fell into it. That's what they do. And and so just because you're good at it That was kind of me. But we do but it happens to so many people where you've kind of just sort of fallen into it based on your your skill set but you haven't learned the business principles the foundations of how to actually grow a business so I was speaking to some uh finance brokers recently right and they love submitted middlemen right the loan for the person to buy the thing they love doing the loans but they have zero idea many of them have zero idea how to generate clients how to do marketing but because it's not something that they've studied or or or learned about they've learnt broking they've learnt that thing but they haven't learned how to build a successful business because it's they're compliance people they're not the course people they're systems people yeah right so hairdressers at any any trade even even accountants and bookkeepers right like even though that they're numbers people doesn't necessarily mean they're very good business people because what's the stereotypical advice the accountant's going to tell you come back on marketing please because you're spending too much money on ads.

SPEAKER_02 57:37

I could go on a tangent about this and I love my accountant Glenn's fucking fab. He's so creative and I love him but he is an absolute type A nerdurger and I love that for him. I need that because that's the opposite of me but the amount of accountants or clients that I get that are like oh my accountant was just like oh why aren't things growing or you need to grow this but they have no strategy of how to actually do that. I'm like that's why you need good accountant good mentor business coach marketing agent all the things to help you with all that other stuff that you don't know how to do like what you just think you're gonna wake up one day it's gonna grow grow here's my magic fairy glass go.

SPEAKER_06 58:10

Fertilizer I've got to get the 100% do you know what I mean? So so you really it's it's interesting because I always believe like the power of our mindset and what how our our inner game our inner dialogue is is our in that's ourselves. We are the biggest reason why our business is either we are the reason our business either growing or struggling. We are totally w with where it stops. And if you don't have um anyone helping you overcome your shit then you won't overcome your shit unless I guess I call unless you kind of learn how to do it or brute force. You just freaking like gonna kind of freaking I hate my life right I'm just gonna fucking kill myself and keep pushing until I die.

SPEAKER_02 59:06

Also therapy's scary makes you face the things you don't want to face.

SPEAKER_06 59:10

Well it well it is a psychologist I made a psychologist I was dealing with some stuff and and they said they really said to me Michael you're very brave and I didn't really understand I didn't understand what that meant. Yeah because because talking through stuff has just been something I've been doing for years because you know through coaching and my own personal development and I've you know gone through my own journey. But a lot of people haven't a lot of people haven't really gone there and I've and some people will call oh that's all woo-woo bullshit right like that that that stuff doesn't mean anything. Like positive thinking fuck that I'm I'm just gonna I'm just gonna p go on I'm gonna go to you know read the new Alex Hormosy book and I'm good. Because the answers will be there. Yeah. Um and and actually interestingly some people often think that they just they don't know the solution either. Yeah they don't know what to do. Do you find that to be true? Like let's say you help them overcome their bullshit thinking in their head do they actually know what the s what the solution is most times?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:16

I think that's true with everything I teach. Nothing I teach is like this massive like revolutionary thing. It's just showing people the right way or even just starting the conversation is enough to get them going. Like we had a client this earlier this week who was like oh my God we haven't even done any of the sales strategy things that you've taught us but just by you getting because I give them like a staff tracking sheet as well like just getting them to write down did this client rebook, did this client buy retail they've started thinking about it more and it's more active and conscious so they're actually doing it. I think a lot of the things that people teach it's it's actually pretty common sense.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:48

Even hormose is a great example the things you post are so great and like you're like oh wow I just needed that brought back into my simple like I it is like the ideas the simplest ones like um task order right so when we're doing a time order right so this this is this is the mirror right if you if you complain if you're the type of person who's complaining oh my god I've got no time I'm so busy um you know well let's have a look at where you're spending your time because you'll be surprised so we'd get we'd get um this is when I was doing business coaching about five years ago we'd get people to do get it it's a simple spreadsheet usually so simple you write down the task how many hours a week you you're doing it um and then you can actually work out make a decision are you gonna do uh you can do a DDD thing do delegate delete yep um and there's probably other decisions that you can make on it yep um or and so in order to delegate you need to probably make a system train someone else offload who we're gonna offload it to we also have a delay in ours delay's the force like you can just like dump it on the list for a rainy day like it doesn't need to be on even on the list right now. So let's say someone wrote down everything they do in the week right all the tasks that they do. If you were sitting with a client how would you help them to determine what they need to put off their plate oh first thing I tell everyone to do is get a housekeeper.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:17

Most of my clients like even if they're not super busy even if they're whatever I'm like but that's occupying your brain everyone needs one. I'm like literally for three of mine's $165 for three hours and what she does in three hours would take me two days because I get distracted and I'd do something else. But yeah we literally do pretty much exactly the same thing. I'm like okay but this thing could cost you $80 but you could do two clients in that time that makes you $5000 so so let's talk about that because it's like this gold in what you just said.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:50

So how so um it's it's is what I'm doing the best use of my time?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:57

Right? So how does someone determine that? How does someone answer that question? Because you just said cleaning is not a good use of time because you could be doing something else.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

So especially with the workload I'm about to give them yeah so what you have no time now?

SPEAKER_06 1:03:13

So where should their time be going? So for example if they're stuck should their their time be going on growth? Should it be on training their people? Should it be on systemizing? How does someone know where to put their time?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:25

Well I mean we work that out sometimes at the end of the day I'm not training them to be better at their skill that they do or their trade that they do. I'm teaching them to be better business owners um usually I, you know, the first thing I do is usually try and get them off the floor one day a week because I'm like I'm about to give you a ton of stuff that you're gonna do tracking sheets every week you know just a actual coaching workload like you probably need two hours a week to do that. As well as that most of my clients are working five, six days a week by the time they start with me. So I'm like if we could just get you out just one day get you out that would free up so much time. I also make owners charge more than their staff. Offer the services yep 100% yeah yeah always tiered pricing your time is more valuable irrespective of if you're the best hairdresser the best barber the best beauty therapist the most um you know experienced your time is more valuable I'm not going to my friend who's a lawyer and seeing his junior for the same price I'm paying for him. You know they're there that that's another thing that I think really helps people to kind of like assert themselves as the owner and look I I'm a person that nothing was beneath me. I'd clean colour balls if my staff needed I'd help them shampoo their clients and prep and do that sort of thing if I had time and they needed the help. Like nothing's beneath me. But if you want to see me for a service and you want to take up my time I'm gonna charge really well for that. Yeah. I don't think there's any blanket rule but generally a housekeeper is the first thing that stresses people out.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:48

I love that so everyone needs to hire a housekeeper and I'm about to launch a housekeeping business so guys go to my link and uh I'll clean your house for you. My price just went up by the way from this conversation. I haven't I don't have any staff yet I haven't worked it out yet but um if we if this goes viral on launching uh and everyone wants a cleaner frickin' I'm in I'm gonna launch that I'm being facetious but I know but I I this is the thing though I actually think like we like Cam was doing our lawns for a little while and now he's decided to take on extra hours at work and like getting all this overtime pay and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:25

So it's like what we pay the gardener is what he earns in one hour at work for someone to do our gardener. So it's it's like those things I'm like why are we why are we doing this? We both hate it like just get someone else to do it.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:36

Isn't it interesting the price comes down to a question of what am I worth? Yeah what is my time worth and that brings up shit because our self worth brings up our childhood it brings up our parents school our all the um judgments and Limiting beliefs we have about ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:03

And that's what's scary.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:05

Totally. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:08

We also decipher limiting decision or limiting belief as well. And we're like, come on.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:12

Yeah, like that's what I'm saying. What's your go-to method to help someone overcome a limiting belief?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:22

Uh depends what it is. I think a lot of the time the belief within my clients tends to be that they've never seen someone else in their family do it or they've never like seen it happen. So I think giving them a connected community does help them to kind of be like, oh, people are doing it and they're not whatever. I think also knowing what I've done in my businesses, they're kind of like, oh, I can take a day off and no one's gonna die. The cell on's not gonna burn.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:49

So they need proof that it's possible.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:51

I think I think evidence and proof is a huge thing, um, which is, I would say, true of a lot of people as well. But I think also, yeah, look, I I always recommend, like, I don't like to delve too much into family history and stuff like that. I always recommend they see someone professional for that. But if we can even expose that a little bit or show them why they're thinking that way or why they feel that way, as terrible as it is, I have a lot of clients. I've only got four male clients, all the rest are female, by the way. But one not one with masculine energy. Totally. They are once they're gonna be. Um, but um what's true of a lot of my clients also is really unsupportive partners. Partners who expect them to be baby makers, homemakers, financially contribute as much as they do. They don't offer any help. You know, when the kids are off sick and their husband, boyfriend, whatever is employed, they're expected to cancel their day's worth of clients opposed to the other person doing it or alternating. That's a big thing. Really big thing. Tell them their boyfriend's a pleb, and no, I don't really. Um, we talk about it.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:00

Are you the king breakup maker? You've broken up so many relationships.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:04

Every time someone comes to one of my retreats, someone speaking of breakups, the dog's barking and like mental. I know. So honestly, at every single one of my retreats, someone will message me about two weeks after and be like, oh my God, I realized that my partner was not what I wanted in my future, or I did my pros and cons, or I sat there and really looked at my relationship and like what I want it to be as a whole. Like at the end of the day, I've left a marriage too, you know, and I'm in a beautiful marriage now, but how I did it for myself is how I do it for my clients, which I sat down and I'm like, what does my what does my perfect day look like? What does my life look like? What do I want it to be like? And I realized through that that it didn't include my husband.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:42

When you work on yourself and like business is the ultimate personal development journey, it will bring up all your shit. And in order for you to your business to grow, you have to grow. But what can happen from a coaching point of view is there's a term called ecology.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:57

And you know what I mean by that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:59

So if you're in business and you're growing, right, and you're having to work on yourself, but your partner is not. Yeah, what happens is you can often outgrow your partner and then you become different people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:12

That was me. Yeah. And he got emasculated and jealous and mean and horrible. And I'm just like, I'm just living, I'm just shining. Like I'm just like just doing my thing. Like, would love you to come along with me, but you know, if that hurts your feelings, well, I can't help you. And yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:28

And that's the price, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:30

Well, and this is the thing, it's like, it's also when you've got like I'm on an NLP therapy journey, like unpacking my childhood, unpacking all those things. He's like stuck, stagnant, staying this, staying whatever. My bright shininess and growing and happiness would make him feel little. You know, it's just the wrong thing. Now I'm with a man who looks at me like the love heart I emoji. Whatever I do.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:51

You know, that last question of the outcome frame, like and this was quickly go through it for people. What what what would you like? What would having that do for you? Yep. How will you know you have it? Yep. When, where, and with whom would you like it? What are you prepared to lose that you value to have it?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:08

That's a huge one. People don't like that one.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:12

What are you gonna give up? Because the giving up part is like, I I don't want to give up anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:18

But it could be, it could be your relationship. It could be those limiting beliefs that you have around your your self-worth and your value, or you have to give up the facade that you've got it all undergoing.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:31

I also think with that too, you know, I talk about this a lot when I talk, like on when I present and stuff, is like we have seasons where you're gonna have to give up a lot of your time, a lot of your effort, a lot of your weekends. Like it just happens. If you want to really like get and get it done, like I've got clients who work through if you know, I've got clients who work through their coaching thing in like a few months and they just want to smash it out and get it done and get it implemented and do the things and whatever, and it's great. And I have others that just want to coast along, and that's also fine. But there are stages where it's like, hey, I am building or I am growing. I'm in a growth phase at the moment, it's fucking killing me. Like, but you know, like there's seasons that you just have to give up sometimes. We don't have we don't get to do social things sometimes. Even as small as that, that people aren't willing to give up.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:16

And that's like the free pool, the cheap pull, the people or the people who are prepared to do whatever it takes. Because because you can like you could you can always say, like, you can say I'm prepared to do whatever it takes to grow my business and actually be successful and achieve goals, but are you actually?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:29

Yes. Correct. Correct.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:32

Um there was uh, you know, a a guy, uh one of the guy who taught me some coaching, he was saying this woman wanted him to do some change work on her, like fix me. Right? And he goes, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna I'm not gonna fix you. I'm not even gonna take your money. And she's like, What do you mean? What do you mean? Like I'm offering you money. He goes, Look, you need to go for a five kilometer run in the rain, and then I'll I'll consider working with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:58

Getting them to buy in.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:00

Like, how much do you actually want this? And another coach said, Hey, you want to work with me? 50 grand up front, and you have seven days. Now that brings up shit, right? Like, what do you mean? Fuck you. Like, how dead, like I'm not what do you mean, seven days? Brings up all limiting beliefs about I can't, I can't, I can't, that's not gonna happen. Yeah, um, or all this stuff. Pressure. How do you respond to pressure or how much do you actually want this? Right?

SPEAKER_07 1:12:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:32

And so I imagine that like businesses is uncovering all these elements of ourselves that are just like, what's holding me back? What's holding me back? Um, and that's where obviously I mean, I love coaching. I mean, I think I think you're amazing. I think what you do for people is freaking unreal because because it takes a lot of it takes a special kind of person to be actually be that coach for people.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:56

Yeah, there's a lot of frauds, hey.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:58

There's a lot of people that would make like what do you think makes a good coach?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:02

I think people who actually care about the result. I think a lot of people go into coaching because they see an opportunity to make more money or they see an opportunity to get out of what they're doing. I think a lot of coaches, coaches, um just yeah, it's it's not it's not for the heart of it. It's not for the betterment of other people, it's not for helping, it's not for those things. Like, you know, one, I want my industry to be better. How great would it be if we all collectively started being better and charging more and and whatever. And two, I want, you know, predominantly female entrepreneurs to be doing really well in their lives and to create those things for themselves. I think that's like the the the end of it. And I'll do whatever it takes to help them with that. I think that's I don't need the money. I'm fine.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:49

But that's the energy that you want. I think everyone needs the energy of I don't need the money, I'm doing this because I'm passionate about it and I want to help people. Like that that becomes you'll be successful because you want to help people and you care and give a shit about their result. Totally. I think fear um and our inner, you know, our inner voice holds us back in many areas, like you know, whether it's increasing our prices, staff, all this sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:17

Without a coach, do you have any tips for people on how they can do a quick sort of overcome the bullshit voice in their head?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:26

In terms of putting their prices up.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:28

Well anything, like whatever they're whatever their problem is, like they they're confronting. Do you have any tips that someone can like self-coach or do some an act an exercise that they could actually do?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:40

Yeah, I work backwards. So I start with what I want, and then I work out where I am, and then I work out how to get to what I want. And I think sometimes when you like actually identify what it is that you wanted, that's really hard, like really hard for some people. I remember in 2021, my barber shop, I still had my barber shop at this stage. So in 2020, it was shut down for like eight months because it was in Victoria. It was the worst year. I lost people to construction. It was just, it was horrible. At the end of 2020, I moved to Queensland. I move alone, I don't know anyone. I'm just like still freaking mentally and financially recovering from the year before. And it took me eight, nine, ten months to work out what it was that I actually wanted. And like actually coming to that was really hard. But then once I was like, okay, cool, now I know that I want this, this is where I'm at. I worked bare minimum, I just needed a breather. Then I kind of worked back the steps when I was coaching myself through. And I think that's like the best thing that people can do for themselves is like, what do you want first? And where are you now? And then it's like, what's stopping me? What's cock blocking me? Like, what's you know, stopping me from getting to what I want? Move them on or create distance if it's people, you know. And then it's like, then just do the thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:48

Just do it. The you know, going to the outcome frame or or or goal-based approach is very much what I I guess like law of attraction kind of principles where we're either focusing on what we want or what we don't want. And either way, we'll get it.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:04

You'll manifest it, yep.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:06

Like I'll get whatever I focus on. So, what am I choosing to focus on? So, therefore, by uh I'm I've got these problems, got these fears. Cool, we could focus on that if you want more of it. But if we otherwise, what what would you like? So, and a really good um tool that I I learned from a guy called Chris Prime, and it's one of my very first um PD events, personal development events, was he called it a T tool. And the T tool was it's called a T tool, like a T. So you get a piece of paper, line down the middle of the page, line at the top. Very, very simple. The left column you write at the top, don't want. Right? And then the right side, so what do I want?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:51

Right? So you start on the left and you go, everything that I hate, everything, all my problems, my staff is shit, I'm not making money, I've lost profit, um, I have no time, all the things that I hate, the things that I don't want this stuff. But these are things that so you look at each item and you go, cool, you ask yourself that question. So what do I want? And then you start to create a clarity list of actually what you do want. And that helps to reframe a structure just instantly with one like five minutes to start to go, okay, cool. And then ask yourself, like, where am I focusing?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:30

Yeah. I think a lot of people we call it toward and away from modality, which is kind of similar to that too, which is like, are you running away from something or are you working towards something? Because when you're away, you're kind of just like going to whatever will get you out of that situation. Whereas when you're going toward, it's obviously that beeline, like hard moving forward focus, and it's it's much better. But I love that. It's honestly sometimes that simple, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06 1:17:53

Like just towards and away from thing that you mentioned is so true about I mean motivation, right? I don't want to be broke, I don't want to be broke, I don't want to be broke. Oh, I'm no longer broke, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:05

And even a bit of like fuck you energy, like I want to show them what I can do, and I want to, you know, like I want to prove like it's like I don't want bad clients.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:14

I don't want bad clients, I don't want bad clients.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:16

I don't want narcissistic staff.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:17

I am sick of bad staff who don't do their job. I am over it, right? And then you say, well, so technically, technically, by you focusing on that, you're attracting more bad stuff. Because you've become the boss that complains about their staff, create a culture of complacency, and you're just like sitting uh you're you're you're the you know the the critic of of your team and building zero motivation out like it's dead.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:51

And a fish rots from the head, right? I think you spoke about that before. You're like, you know, everything starts at the top, and love that like a fish rots from the head. Like if you walk into your business or your online business or whatever, and you're vibrating here, all your staff are gonna copy that and they're all gonna be vibrating at the same level, and it's so you're so wow.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:11

So so you do 89 clients right now, you're helping them with their systems, you're helping them with their pricing, you're helping them with all this sort of stuff. Um, what's next for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:23

Um, very heavy in the IVF at the moment. So hopefully some babies. So this is kind of this is a bit of a growth, but like I've also like I'm outsourcing lots now at the moment to kind of like create that space because I realized up until now I have not created space for that. Um so actually I'm kind of moving into just like a bit of a flow here, like just like keep things going as they are.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:46

Wow. Um if anyone's listening to this and they think you're awesome, um, and they go, Oh my god, I am in hair and I have these problems that we've spoken about. How how what's the best way for someone to get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:02

Yeah, um, iconic coaching through our website, through our Instagram, um, is the best way when you plug in whatever way you'll do that, whether it's filling out a form, whether it's sending us a message, whatever, my staff will pick it up and they'll guide you through the whole thing. Um, or podcast if you want to hear me blab, uh tell me about it podcast.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:23

I love hearing Caitlin blab. It's it's it's great.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:27

It's kind of a it's it's you know what we were discussing earlier.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:30

It's like there's no consistency, it's business, it's life, it's money, it's freaking people, it's cool people doing cool shit. It's just it's random, like me.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:40

I I think you know, again, if you don't resonate with Caitlin, you're an idiot. But no, you're not either. Um you're you're probably not a hairdresser, you're not in the industry, and that's fine. But I think from this discussion, I think this we've just highlighted a huge value in recognizing those limitations that we have. So whether it's to do with um the energy of how we do our business, so whether we're leaning into a masculine or a feminine, or how do we show up in terms of who do we need to be in order for our business to be successful and asking ourselves that and being the leader, being the person who's actually making those decisions, yeah, rather than being the victim of our business and sort of being losing our power. So you've got to step into your power.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:27

Other thing I think we spoke about today was really insightful was about looking at the truth.

unknown 1:21:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:32

If you have problems but you're not looking at the truth, you're avoiding stuff, and that's probably the first step. Look at the actual thing, whether it's an order, and if you're having problems with that, speak to a coach, speak to a consultant, find an expert that you can sit with to look at the the truth and then work out what do you actually want.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:53

And then and then a very simple what am I gonna do and just do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:00

Have I missed anything?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:02

No. I love it.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:04

It sounds simple, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:07

You have a great memory.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:13

Sometimes I do. Sometimes I do. I just find this conversation really, really interesting. And um, and I and I really strongly believe that simple is the best way forward in business. When we complicate things, it just becomes a mess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:28

Um, Caitlin, I want to thank you so much for going balls deep with me today. Um and uh I'm looking forward to uh maybe having you back and talking about some other things. But in the meantime, I'm looking forward to your next viral episode of your podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:43

I can't wait to hopefully it's about something more important, like business or something like that, than fucking offending the manosphere.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:50

But you know, either way, I'll probably see your maths next year. Awesome. Thanks, Kaylin.