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The State I Am In
Welcome to The State I Am In, a podcast that amplifies the voices and stories of Alaskans, hosted by fellow Alaskan, Manny Coelho. Each week, we dive deep with hunters, aurora chasers, athletes, entrepreneurs, elected leaders, and everyday heroes to explore the topics that matter most in the Last Frontier. Through engaging conversations, we uncover insights, gain practical tools for daily life, and strengthen our connection to this incredible place we call home.
Expect long-form interviews, monthly solo episodes, and a chance to shape the conversation.
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The State I Am In
#008 Trawling & Bycatch: Two Words Every Alaskan Should Know - Ryan Astalos and Jackie Boyer from SalmonState
In this eye-opening episode of The State I Am In, I’m joined by Ryan Astalos and Jackie Boyer from SalmonState to break down one of the most urgent issues facing Alaska today: industrial trawling and the devastating impact of bycatch. We unpack what trawling actually is, who profits from it, and who pays the price—especially the Alaskan communities relying on the return of wild salmon.
Why do Seattle-based factory trawlers get a pass while sportfishers and subsistence users face tight limits? Why are millions of pounds of wasted fish ignored while rural families are told to do more with less?
But we don’t stop there. We dig into what Alaska’s representatives are (and aren’t) saying, who really has the power to change this, and how everyday Alaskans can, and must—raise their voices. This is a conversation that cuts across party lines and strikes at the heart of what it means to live here.
The time to act is now. If we want a future with fish, it’s going to take all of us.
Visit www.salmonstate.org to learn more
We've got Jackie Boyer with me today and Ryan Astelis with Salmon State. Thank you both for being here with me today. And let's just jump right into it. Jackie, what brought you to Salmon State?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, I personally align with the mission, like who doesn't love salmon in Alaska? Kind of what it comes down to, but... Like my background, I kind of fell into policy work right outside of high school and did an internship in our state legislature. And I adopted my siblings and like I'm indigenous. So like it's kind of ingrained in my culture to like be a steward and to take care of our lands and waters and everything. So when this opportunity opened up, For this position and to work at salmon state, I kind of jumped at it and I absolutely love everyone at the team.
SPEAKER_03:What is your position with salmon state?
SPEAKER_00:So I work on the stop trawl bycatch campaign and, uh, I'm relatively new to this organization, but I've, you know, in previous positions, I've always partnered with them and always appreciated the work here.
SPEAKER_03:Cool. Ryan, what about you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. After graduating college, I. Started door knocking against the Pebble Mine in an effort to protect Bristol Bay. Since then, I have worked in different organizations, different positions, and started working part-time with Salmon State back in 2017. And when the opportunity arose for a full-time position, I jumped on it. I really love working with Salmon State. just like Jackie spoke about the work that we are doing and the people that we work with is really important to me. And I think, so my role at Salmon State has kind of evolved over time, but I'm our operations director and that kind of lumps in a lot of different tasks, whether that be admin work, outreach, going to different events, and then also our social media and our website. So kind of all over the board.
SPEAKER_03:Salmon State's social media is actually pretty awesome. I've been following just for a few months, actually. I found out about Salmon State through one of the Facebook pages, Stop Alaskan. Trawler Bycatch is the name of the Facebook page, and it's huge. There's like 44,000 people that follow this, and I'm assuming people that live in Alaska and beyond, but I reached out to the admin for that page, David Bays, and he was excited about wanting to discuss this type of issue on the podcast and suggested... I believe he suggested it. It could have been someone else. I talked to a few people on that page about it, but they were like, you need to talk to Salmon State. And so I look up Salmon State and one beautiful website, clear cut on what you all are about, what you're doing in the state, the issues that are important to, I feel like most Alaskans. As I look through that, if you're an Alaskan, the things that Salmon State are doing, I think you probably should be or if not already concerned about as far as protecting our land, protecting our salmon. They're issues that are unique to us. So when I reached out to Salmon State, I talked to Mary Catherine, and she was quick to say, we'll find someone for you, and I appreciate that so much because I think it's an important issue that we, one that you are working on and that we should discuss so that other people can get in on that too. So this is both of your full-time jobs, right? That's correct. That's awesome. So this isn't just something you're doing on a volunteer basis. This is your life in a sense. And I appreciate you all sharing that with me today. So I want to learn more about Salmon State. So what would you say the mission of Salmon State is?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So Salmon State works to ensure that wild salmon and the people that depend on them thrive. Kind of our... name is born out of Alaska, making sure that Alaska remains the salmon state, right? Just kind of, as you noted, everybody should be connected to the issues that we work on. They might not always agree with everything that we say, but salmon are a key connector with Alaskans. And that's the work that we do is for the people and for the fish.
SPEAKER_03:So we're going to talk today about, you know, stopping trawler bycatch. But that's just one of a few issues Sam Estate is concerned about and working on. Is that right? What are some of the other campaigns that you guys have going on?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I kind of mentioned it in my intro, but I'm sure... The majority of Alaskans know about the Pebble Mine that's proposed in Bristol Bay. This is one of the issues that Salmon State's been involved in for years, along with local... The United Tribes of Bristol Bay and other partners, we've come to the table to work on that issue. You know, in addition to that, there's several mines on the British Columbia side of the border in Canada at the headwaters of the Stikine, Eunich, and Taku. Kind of similar impacts of the Pebble Mine, but on the Canadian side, that would impact Southeast communities. So we're concerned about that. We're also looking to, you know, uplift Southeast communities to kind of give the direction that they want to ensure that salmon streams, trout streams, recreation, tourism is all important to the Southeast community and economics and make sure that logging isn't all. um, destroying that habitat. Um, cause that's really important to those fish populations. Um, in addition to that, we're also working on, um, the proposed West of Sydney industrial access road, um, which is kind of a state funded, um, hundred plus mile road that would go from big lake out to, um, the, uh, Alaska range, um, for potential mining claims. This would cross 180 streams. It would at least be$600 million, probably more with our inflation and construction prices these days. And then also just making sure that public spaces remain protected for opportunity for Alaskans to recreate, hunt, fish, and live a subsistence lifestyle. So, you know, we are really concerned with freshwater habitats through all these different campaigns that I just mentioned. But we're also concerned with the ocean space in the way of trawl bycatch. You know, salmon in particular, as everyone knows, is an andromus, and so they live in both environments. And so that's important for Salmon State.
SPEAKER_03:I think salmon... are important to the state, no doubt. I'm trying to think of a way to kind of relate it to people that maybe they don't eat salmon, maybe they don't fish, but they're still important to the state. They're important to a lot of, even though they might not be important to you, specifically wherever you live, there's other communities that rely on salmon population, the return of salmon. What is... or I guess why is protecting salmon such a critical issue so much so that this organization exists?
SPEAKER_00:From my perspective, I really got into this work because of indigenous ways of life and how much we're interrelated to marine life and land on the water or mammals and everything that is kind of ingrained in who we are. And so, I mean, salmon is just kind of the, the lifeline, the lifeblood of indigenous communities. And like, you know, growing up, everything is kind of interrelated to like seafood, like growing up. And my grandma would tell me stories and like cut fish and, you know, I like to think about, or like when I get discouraged about things, like, I go back to thinking about processing salmon with my grandma. And so like with each salmon that she would cut, she would, you know, tangibly give me the heart of each one and like tell me a story about growing up and cutting salmon with her grandma and, you know, generations before. And that's like a way of life that existed, you know, since time immemorial. And so that's why I think it's so critical that we work to protect this because it's a place that, It's a place that's always been connected to salmon, and it's our duty to make sure that continues for the next generation and the next generation, just the way that it's gone on for generations prior.
SPEAKER_03:It does put into perspective that it's more than just a fish that spawns and goes out to the ocean and comes back. It's a lot more tied to that, for sure. So today we're going to talk about trawling. It's like predominantly we're going to be talking about trawling. For those that don't know, what is trawling?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I can start off with that. So, you know, there's a lot of specifics that go into each type of gear. And so I'll kind of explain this on a generalized level. So you can have two groupings, basically. You have bottom trawling and then mid-water, or it's also known as pelagic trawling. And so then on top of that, you have catcher vessels, which are trawling vessels that go out and catch the fish, and then they have to offload that fish, whether it be shore-side processing or a mother ship. So a mothership would be a floating processor essentially. And so that's a boat that is on the water and these catcher vessels are bringing that fish to them. Then at the same time, there's also catcher processors. And so they're doing it all in one boat. So it kind of depends. And then to kind of go a little bit more into what pelagic and bottom trawling is, So pelagic is where they're supposed to be in the middle of the water column, right? Catching their fish. But there's been studies that have been done where it depends on what kind of vessel that they're operating, but they're finding that those nets are on the ground from 40 to 100% of the time. And so that has to do a lot with the weights, the fish that they're catching, trying to catch, and there's some issues with the regulations at the North Pacific Fisheries Management Council that there's not actually a clear definition of what that is. They just talk about it in the sense of what the net looks like and not actually how they're fishing. On the other hand, bottom trawling is specifically designed to be on the bottom. It has rollers. They're dragging that net on the bottom. in search of those oftentimes flatfish. And essentially, the issues with the midwater touching the bottom is disrupting the habitat, but it also kind of throws in a loophole, right? So you have certain areas that are designated as close to bottom trawling, And those midwater trawls are able to operate in those areas. But if they're on the ground between 40% and 100% of the time, they're still impacting those areas where they're supposed to be closed. And that's impacting species like crabs where they're molting and spawning corals that grow for hundreds of years, et cetera. So
SPEAKER_03:these trawlers are targeting, you said either like flatfish on the bottom, Um, but also like, isn't like walleye Pollock, is that like another, like highly targeted species of fish also?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So largely, um, Pollock is midwater. Um, and so that's like kind of when people think about trawling, they automatically go to Pollock. Um, you know, these are the fish that are used for filet of fish at McDonald's and several other fast food restaurants. They are made into fish sticks. Um, They're even coming out with like breaded filets at supermarkets. And interestingly enough, imitation crab or surimi is ground up and highly processed pollock made into crab sticks. And so the flatfish are typically flounders, sole, different species like that that are living on the bottom. And One other species that's caught mid-water is cod.
SPEAKER_03:What's the quantity we're talking about here with these nets and the amount of fish that they're trying to bring in at one time?
SPEAKER_01:Over the course of the year, billions
SPEAKER_03:of pounds. Billions with a B. Yeah, it's a lot. And these nets are enormous in size. They... I think I've read that they're like, maybe it was on the San Jose website, like as long as a football field, like they're huge, right? And like they're trying to target specific species, but in the process of that, other stuff is getting into the net as well, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So just like you said, they're spread out the size of a football field and they're indiscriminately catching these species. It kind of tapers down into a cone, which is oftentimes referred to as the cod end. And that is pulling through the water. And in the process, they're indiscriminately catching species that Alaskans care about. whether it be culturally, economically, or just, you know, wanting to fill our freezers, you know. So this includes salmon, halibut, crab, herring, black cod, et cetera. You know, just a couple years ago, you know, they actually caught orcas. And just this last year they caught another one. And so there's also a lot of marine mammals that, and sharks and things like that that don't make it onto the publicly available bycatch data. And so then there's left on people or organizations to do what's called a FOIA request. And they're, you know, petitioning the government essentially to release that data. And when they do, they being NOAA, you know, it's highly pixelated. And so then those organizations then have to follow up and sue the government to actually see what these vessels are actually bycatching. So it's really problematic. Can you clarify what NOAA is? National Oceanic and Atmosphere Administration.
SPEAKER_03:So where, like, is this all across the, I mean, I'm thinking about like, You know, Alaska is a state. We've got a lot of ocean. You know, we border a lot of ocean. We've got a lot of coastal communities. Where is this trawling happening?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so it's a good question. A lot of the problem and the majority of the trawling happens in federally managed water. So that's between 300 and 200 miles off the coast of Alaska. And so there's Gulf of Alaska, and then there's also the Bering Sea. And that's where a lot of the trawling is occurring. There's one state-managed Pollock trawl fishery that occurs in Prince Williamstown. It's a rather short season. It goes from January 20th to March 31st. Although this year, they wrapped up rather quickly because they met their quota. So they were already... done fishing Prince Williamstown by February 18th because they had, um, caught 9 million pounds of Pollock.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Those numbers are hard to like grasp. But when you think about like the amount of amount of fish that they're taking in is, it seems, it seems crazy because it's every year, year after year, I'm assuming, right? Like they didn't just start trawling. Trawling has been going on for a while, I'm guessing. Um, who are like the major players in, in like this trawling industry? Um, like these, are these companies based in Alaska? Are they out of state? Are they internationally? Like you mentioned, you know, the, you know, it was a 200 miles outside of Alaska, um, is considered federal water. So could they be, are they, are there international players here or is it, um, are these all companies based in the state that are doing this?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so there is international trawling that is occurring, Russian trawling, that kind of thing, but we're really focused on what we can influence, and that's the federal waters, right? And so a lot of these companies are sending their trawl boats from Washington, Oregon, and then there's a small fleet that's actually based out of Kodiak.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so there are other states involved basically send in these trawler fleets. It's not just like an Alaska, you know, these aren't just Alaskan companies. They're coming from out of state as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So this federally managed waters is considered the North Pacific. And so that's managed by the North Pacific fisheries management council. And the members that make up that body include members that are appointed by the Alaska, Washington and Oregon governors.
SPEAKER_03:So you mentioned some, like you mentioned like McDonald's, like Filet-O-Fish, some of these other, products that are kind of keeping the demand up for these trawlers to do what they do. But as I looked into trawling and what that was, and just to see it from that perspective, they have this claim that it's sustainable is actually the word that they use. And again, I'm not like, I'm just a layman and learning all of this. But when you hear about like the millions and millions of fish that are being taken. When you, we're going to talk about the bycatch and like when we learn about the amount of fish that are, are being lost, um, in the process of, of this, you know, these trawling fleets, it's hard to justify in my own understanding that this is something that is sustainable, which means we can do it for a long time and there's enough, you know, regrowth, um, in return. Like it just doesn't make sense. Um, so, um, back to the question was, you know, who's, who's benefiting from, from what these trawlers are doing.
SPEAKER_01:So, um, to your question about sustainability. So a lot of, um, trial cop products, um, kind of make it into, um, the market and, um, restaurants with a stamp of approval, quote unquote. Um, this is, um, the Marine Stewardship Council that you might see a little stamp of little blue fish stamp on products such as the flail fish. Um, and those are dubbed as sustainable. Um, you know, that body, um, you know, certification body, um, you know, might have good intentions, um, but They do certify sustainable fisheries, like certain ways of salmon fishing, for example. However, it is a little bit of a pay-to-play game. And so whenever you have a multi-billion dollar industry like the trawl industry, that is pretty easy for them to pay for this industry. blue washing, if you will. Right. Um, and so whenever folks, um, have come to trust this blue fish stamp, um, and they're in the supermarket, you know, they will see that it's sustainable, but, you know, unfortunately it's not because of the number of, uh, species that are becoming victim of bycatch, um, There's also issues with bottom trawling, ruining the habitat on the ocean floor. There's also been studies that have been done that is contributing to carbon emissions by rototilling the seafloor, essentially. So there's that. There's also claims that the trawl industry will like to call that they're sustainable based on percentages, right? And so they're taking in such a large consumption of this whitefish, whether it be pollock or flatfish, whatever, that they can put out, oh, we're only at 1% by catch. But 1% is like
SPEAKER_03:maybe millions or like a significant amount. Yeah. Wow. Exactly. Wow. That's wild. Yeah. So I do want to talk about the bycatch issue now because as you're talking, I'm hearing like two issues simultaneously and that's how long can you possibly take the species that you are targeting and then what about the species that we're losing that you aren't targeting? It's like two things happening simultaneously that I feel like there's a problem there if it's just... They're just allowed to kind of do what they do. And it doesn't sound like with much like regulation involved or like they kind of have freedom to do whatever they want because of, you know, being billion dollar industries when, you know, the smaller, you know, you know, fishermen or the, uh, you know, as a, as a sports fishermen, um, you know, we get the notifications like, Hey, Kings are closed this year, or there's no, you know, low return of salmon this year. And it's like, we're feeling it on, you know, at the very bottom when they're just allowed to kind of do whatever they, they want to. So you mentioned some of the things, uh, that, that, you know, these, these trawlers are affecting, how is trawling affecting Alaska salmon populations and the overall, uh, ecosystem health?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, with, you know, trawling in Alaska. So, you know, as Ryan was talking about, you know, the size of a football field or nets when, you know, it's the loaded weight of a Boeing 747, which is massive. So in 2023, they caught 10 orcas. Like, could you imagine accidentally catching an orca or like much less 10? So like trawlers come into Alaska, you know, or federal waters and They catch and discard more than Alaskans are, you know, along the Yukon are allowed to harvest. And like, you know, you can go back to the percentages and whatnot, but like, you know, one subsistence user, one sports user, if they catch, uh, you know, a King salmon, you know, and not follow the regulations, they lose their license. They lose their fishing gear and they're like, you can't fish. Versus a big industry that's allowed to continuously catch and discard and kill, you know, thousands upon thousands and, you know, millions of pounds of marine life and just toss it overboard. And, you know, it's business like usual.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's and that's just what's wild is that it's not usable. Like, it's not just like, oh, this these fish that we didn't target are in our net. Let's just let them go. Like, they're probably going to die. Like, right. Like, yeah. the chances of them living after being caught in that, you know, those giant nets has, it has to be pretty slim. And you're so right. Like, you know, the regulations come down hard on the, on the fishermen and yet these huge industries are just kind of let loose to do what they want. Are there any like visual or emotional stories that stick with you when talking about talking about this issue?
SPEAKER_00:So like, with the last in-person North Pacific fishery management council meeting in February. Um, like, so that was the largest in-person gathering of, you know, indigenous people that I've seen. Um, and it was, you know, days and hours of testimony and like, I encourage people to go back and listen and, you know, maybe we can send you links to some pretty heart wrenching stories, but, um, communities have been feeling it and it's, you know, it was lots of tears, lots of, you know, pointing back to this is our way of life. Like we matter too. Like how can you put industry above Alaskans and like not hear us and not like elevate our issues to like mean as much there. It's, it just comes back to like, it's almost a humanitarian crisis that actually is a humanitarian crisis. Like why is an industry allowed to flourish and, have subsidies, have like this green or blue washing while Alaskans who've like been here, live here, recreate here, lived here for forever, like feel the brunt of it versus, you know, Seattle-based trawlers who just come to Alaska to get a paycheck. So, yeah, those stories of my, you know, one story was like, my grandson doesn't know the taste of salmon anymore. And that breaks my heart because like, I, it's really hard to put into words because it's so connected to who we are and it's just, it's heart wrenching. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Can you talk about, you mentioned the Yukon earlier and that's the Yukon chum salmon return has been, I've seen it in the news for the last, few years, I feel like. But can you talk about that specifically? Like there's those communities on the Yukon that are feeling the brunt of this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And so with CHUM specifically, there is no CHUM bycatch limit in federal waters. So
SPEAKER_03:they're not even, it doesn't matter to them, right? Like they don't have to even report it basically? I
SPEAKER_00:mean, it's reported, but there's no limit on it.
SPEAKER_03:Wow. So for some species, there are limits, but with chum salmon, there are no limits. However, there's communities on the Yukon that have been relying on the chum salmon return, right? Yeah. That's wild. It's sad. It's not wild. It's sad. Because like you're saying, it's generations of people, a way of life ingrained in culture, So much more than just going to the grocery store to pick up your food. This is food that you have relied on coming to you generation after generation. And now it's either slowed down or completely stopped in some cases, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, for sure. And then also if you've seen prices for groceries in rural Alaska. So I went back home yesterday. a couple of months ago after my grandpa's passing and, you know, I was going to buy my aunt some groceries, you know, and it was, you know, just for basic necessities, you know, as well over, you know,$200 for not even a week of food. And it's just like, how is this fair is kind of the broader question. Like, you know, we've lived here for forever and, um, You know, it's so ingrained into our culture and just, you know, our ways of life. And somehow you have to go to the council and lobby and, you know, ask for basic needs to be met. It's just frustrating and just heartbreaking.
SPEAKER_03:So we talked about the numbers a little bit. Who's reporting the numbers? Is it the trawlers that are required to do the reporting? Is there like third party reporters? I feel like when we're talking about like millions, you know, or billions annually, there has to be some like, you know, a small error can still mean a lot, right? So is it the trawlers that have to do the reporting?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so there is onboard observer coverage that does happen. This is federally certified. A lot of those observers are third-party, though. And so in addition to that, there's also electronic monitoring, and that occurs in the Bering Sea and in the Gulf of Alaska. There's an opt-in program happening in the Gulf where– You know, just to give an example, just last fall, you know, there was 2,000 Chinook salmon that were by caught by two vessels in one day. And those were caught, or excuse me, it was observed on electronic monitoring. And if those boats did not have that capability, who's to say that the members of the public would have known that actually occurred? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So... I feel like the issue at this point is pretty lined out as far as, you know, we're losing a lot of species that, species of fish that Alaskans rely on, both intentionally, you know, the trawlers are trying to target specific species and unintentionally with all this bycatch. So how does this change? Like we talked about, you know, there's some federal aspect to this, then there's a state aspect of, to this, you know, for this to, to change, where do we begin? I
SPEAKER_01:just need to add on to that last answer real quick. So in addition to onboard observers and electronic monitoring, those short side processors are also verifying that by catch number as well.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha. So when they get to shore,
SPEAKER_01:they're also third party though, you said? Well, they're, they're processing. So, you know, they're, Yeah, it's the processing plants. Gotcha, the processing
SPEAKER_03:plants. That makes sense because they're seeing the actual product that's coming through. Okay. So as far as the change aspect, do we start with our local governments? Like in Alaska, is it our representatives and our senators that have the say? Are we just subject to whatever the federal government wants to do? How do we work that out?
SPEAKER_00:So like with all like movement building and, you know, when you're tackling such a huge issue like this and, you know, a multi-billion dollar industry, like every space that you can bring it up. So like starting with our state legislature. So there is, as Ryan talked about, one state managed trawl fishery. And while it's only one, it signals to the federal government that Alaskans care about this issue. There's also polling showing that 74% of Alaskans went to ban trawling outright. which is huge. I don't think I know of any other polling that's that high. It's
SPEAKER_03:hard to get everyone to agree about something. A lot of Alaskans agree that trawling is probably a bad idea.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a bipartisan issue. It's, you know, everyone loves Alaska and our salmon and our marine life and, you know, this way of life that, you know, impacts everyone. So, you know, there are a way, you know, you can contact your, you know, local legislator and say like, I support this. I support banning. I want to see a resolution put forward to ban trawling in Alaska. I want to support legislation that encourages the federal government to take action on this issue and whatnot. And then for the congressional level, our representatives can introduce legislation to change the structure of the North Pacific Fishery Management Council, which manages our federal fishery. Also, just with social changes, Ryan is really great on our sticker campaign. That's just one way of showing that you support changing the system. Every little act adds to the bigger movement building of stopping this unsustainable practice.
SPEAKER_03:You touched on the politics side of it. I think people try to to pick which box this fits in for them, you know, if it aligns with their party or not, regardless of what that is. But this is one of those things that I feel like transcends that if you're an Alaskan. And I think that's the beauty of it is that we can all get behind that we're kind of being taken advantage of with the resources that we have in our waters with our wild salmon species there. And then, you know, we're losing out on the ability to feed our families and to keep this Thank you. Thank you. One, we're doing things like this. You guys are very active in the state. And like you said, reaching out to our representatives and our senators. I do want to touch on something. I got a letter back from a petition response from Senator Murkowski. I had sent, this was about a month and a half ago, just saying that I was in favor of banning trawling. And the response, which I assume it's like a canned response that they just send out to everyone, was that... the reduction in salmon return is due to climate change, as well as she did acknowledge trawling. But she mentioned that climate change could be a part of that. And I'm not like a climate change denier. I think that the climate does change. But to the amount of fish that we're losing objectively, we can see on paper that I feel like if you're trying to change something, it's much harder to change the climate than it is to address these nets in the water. And she did say that she was working on the issue by doing a couple things. One of those is... Let me just pull it up here. So she mentions increasing the funding for the NOAA bycatch reduction engineering program. So... she said she was increasing the funding for that, but I'm like, how does funding help the bycatch issue? If nets are still going in the water, you guys speak to that at all, as far as that, what that program is, or if there's any, you know, there's any hope in that, um, program.
SPEAKER_01:I can start. Um, I think that like, well, first of all, Salmon State recognizes that trawling is not the singular issue that is affecting our decline in species, whether it be salmon or halibut or crab. But it's a very large contributor, and it's something that can be changed. It's a human activity that can go through regulation change, gear type change, et cetera. And so I just wanted to be clear about that. And then as far as funding research goes, I think that that's important. We need to come at these solutions with a science-based approach, but we also need to come at it at an ecosystem-based approach. A lot of the North Pacific Fisheries Management Council, they have a statistical and science approach. committee and they're recommending things to the council. You know, there's an advisory panel that is also, um, recommending things to the council before they take these votes. And I think that one thing that they, um, you know, need to take into account is that they're managing for a singular species, a species that is going to make money. You know, this all falls under NOAA, which is currently under the US Department of Commerce. So, you know, this is an industry that's driven to make money and it's not necessarily for the health of our ecosystems and the species that are centered. So, you know, I think that there's part of that. And I think that, you know, there's also like a kind of a negative connotation that can happen with some of this funding for research and stuff. And that is that like, oh, well, we need to study this and see what those impacts are. And so that will take a handful of years. Whenever we know that there is the destruction that's happening currently, we're past the time of action and we need to take that action now. We know the effects of trawling. We can see that there's several places across the globe that have actually banned trawling because of its negative effects. And, you know, Trawling in federal waters off the coast of Alaska started back in the early 80s, I think. And so they've kind of gotten away with a lot. And it's high time that we need to take drastic action to make change. I
SPEAKER_03:agree. Research, sure, is great. And we should be looking to science in some ways to... Thank you so much. The other thing that she had mentioned in her letter back regarding the issue was, again, it was another funding, research funding program. This was the Bristol Bay Science and Research Institute chum salmon bycatch genetic analysis testing. So she said that if successful, that it would improve the Pollock fleet's ability to avoid Western Alaska chum salmon bycatch. So I looked into that a little bit just to figure out what that meant. At first, First glance, I was like, are we genetically creating chum salmon now? That's what I thought it was. Are we doing GMO chum salmon? But it was not that. It was, I think, more or less trying to identify maybe location, where they were going to be at so that the trawling fleet could avoid those areas. Is that right?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I could start off by just saying that the trawl industry, generally speaking, likes to kind of... push the issue of trauma by catch under the rug, so to speak, because a lot of the genetic data that you're talking about points to Asian hatchery fish. But again, when we talk about these large percentages that the trawl industry likes to take, they're not accounting for all of the thousands of fish that are bound for Western Alaska. So just to give you an example, 51,000 chum salmon were genetically tested that were bound for Western Alaska salmon in 2021. And the trial industry wrote that off because like, oh, well, there's hundreds of thousands of chum salmon that are being by caught, but they're from Asia hatcheries. And so it's fine. And I think that the reality is, is it can't be that that management system can't be dictated by a genetic marker. You know, we need to be able to have these chum salmon return to their natal streams and not get by caught by this industry.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. You'd mentioned other countries facing the same issue and coming to the conclusion that they had to ban it. Which, which areas was that, which areas in the world have done that? And what did they do to be successful?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we can look at different countries that have taken action to ban bottom trawling. So if we look at in 2015, Chile noted sponges and corals as reasons to ban trawling in certain areas. And then in 2024, the UK, Greece, and Sweden also banned bottom trawling. And then right here at home, but in Southeast Alaska specifically, in 1998, a group of fishermen petitioned to stop trawling. And so trawling is actually banned in Southeast Alaska. And that was an action that was taken by the federal government. So this is a possible... change that we can make. It's definitely an uphill battle, but it is
SPEAKER_03:possible. That's awesome, and that's good to hear. It would be a shame to get to the point of salmon aren't returning, that the trawlers leave Alaska waters because they've decimated the population. It would be a shame for trawling to end because of that. It would be so much better for us to address it now so that we can ensure that these populations continue to thrive and in some cases regenerate and come back.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I'll just add real quick, um, that this is actually trawling has as a gear type has phased out essentially on the East coast, um, because of their target species, uh, crashed. Um, and so you're absolutely right that we need to be, um, forward thinking and make sure that, uh, we just, we don't overfish, um, what we have, um,
SPEAKER_03:a little bit. Off topic, I guess. Maybe not. But we were talking about what we can do as far as communicating with our elected leaders and letting them know that this is an issue for us. It's an Alaskan issue that we want to be addressed. Recently, Governor Dunleavy brought up the concept of fish farming, which I thought was, I'll just say, very interesting. I know Alaska is desperate to create revenue streams and to figure out how to get out of a deficit and to make money. But the idea of fish farming when we are having such a difficult time managing our wild species just seems very bizarre. What
SPEAKER_01:are your thoughts
SPEAKER_03:on
SPEAKER_01:that? So essentially, Salmon State is very opposed to fish farming. Fish farming, whether it's in the ocean or on land, can produce diseases to our wild populations by various different means, whether it be spread by flooding, birds, air, et cetera. It also can really compete with our wild seafood market and small boat fishermen. And so, you know, we need to be really concerned about that. And the current bill that's proposed leaves the five Pacific salmon off of the table for this current iteration. But if this bill were to pass, it could be a stepping stone to allow salmon farming in Alaska. And that's just not something that Uh, we as Alaskans can, can let go. Yeah. There's a famous, uh, bumper sticker out of Sitka. Uh, friends don't let friends eat farm fish.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And I feel like that was the general, um, at least I can only speak to my circle of friends in my circle that I have, but yeah, when the fish farming, it's an HB one 11, when that got, got brought up, you're just kind of like, what fish, fish farming? Um, We have such bigger fish to fry, for lack of a better term. But I'm glad Salmon State feels that way. I can't imagine that you guys would be all, yes, fish farming is the way. It seems like we need to be good stewards of what we have right now before we start trying to generate something out of nothing. So I do want to talk about kind of the path to... influencing some type of meaningful change here. So Jackie, like you said earlier, this is likely a issue that most Alaskans would agree on. Um, who is arguing that trawling is a good idea or is it just the trawlers?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, it is the trawlers, but I'd be a little remiss to not acknowledge that there's CDQs in Alaska or community development quota programs. Um, in western alaska and that's kind of a um a nuanced uh conversation to be had and you know my family uh being from western alaska and it's it's complicated it like personally not you know i can't speak behalf on you know of salmon state on this but it feels like with investing and trolling in that area it feels like you know you're getting robbed and then getting five dollars back Um, so you can't fish, but you get, you have this program that will, you know, provide some economic value back to the region. Um, and it's just complicated and it's unfortunate and it makes me, um, it makes me pretty sad to think about, but going back to the bigger issue, this larger industry that's not Alaska based shouldn't be taking our resources is kind of the broader issue. conversation to be had and something that we're focusing on. Like, why, why are we allowing this to happen?
SPEAKER_03:So what can like everyday Alaskans do, you know, now maybe they didn't know about this issue. Maybe they're better informed about this issue. What is the next step in, in your opinions that kind of gets momentum behind this for some type of meaningful change?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think currently what you can do is contact your elected officials and also understanding that whenever election season rolls around, that this is an issue that our politicians, our elected leaders have control over, especially our governor, because he's nominating the most seats to the North Pacific Fisheries Management Council. Salmon State's a 501c3 entity, and so we can't support or oppose a candidate, but it's important to know that these issues are impacted by the election of a governor. Also, just our congressional delegation that's working in Washington, D.C. can write legislation that will update fishing practices, reauthorize the Magnuson-Stevens Act, things like that, introduce bills like our previous representative, Mary Paltola, that were talking about bottom trawling and things along those natures. I think that also, you know, the council meets five times a year. And so there's opportunities to comment to them written ahead of time and also testifying in person.
SPEAKER_00:Can I just add one thing? So, like, you know, as Ryan was talking about, you know, the governor's role in, you know, nominating seats to the council. So he submits names. It goes to the secretary of commerce. The secretary of commerce is basically kind of like a rubber stamp. So, you know, it makes sense to defer to the state and whatnot. But that process is inherently flawed. So the governor just submitted those names in March. And it's not... an open process, right? So like a few people put their name in, um, there's no public list. There's no way to submit like, um, comments other than emailing boards and commissions. And, you know, you're not sure who all is there. So it's mostly like an insider baseball game feeling. Um, and so there's an article that came out and, uh, Alaskans just found out that it's the governor submitted, you know, the same industry, uh, representatives to the council. Um, and like, I'm a big nerd on civic engagement and public policy. And like, to me, that feels like inherently flawed. You need to be able to engage and have a conversation with your local government and who represents you on this huge council that impacts all of Alaska. So, I mean, you know, the names are already submitted, so you could contact the secretary of commerce. Um, but there isn't like a front facing, um, public engagement opportunity, which is really unfortunate. So honing in on there needs to be a better public process.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And I'm learning now that the governor's role is, I guess, a lot larger than I thought it was in all of this. I assumed it would come from Senator Dan Sullivan or Senator Lisa Murkowski, Representative Nick Begich. Those are the people that come to mind first. when I think of like who I need to contact to change this, but from what you are saying, is it a lot of, at least the, the council that has a lot of influence comes from, is appointed by the governor. So I'm assuming we can reach out to the governor's office as well about, about this.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And just to kind of throw one more level, you know, when we talk about that state managed pollock trawl fishery in Prince William sounds, you know, that regulatory body is the board of fish, same process. Well, It's a little bit different, but same idea where the governor is appointing these members to the board and then the legislature approves them. So there's actually two nominees in front of the legislature right now.
SPEAKER_00:And that is a public process. So you can submit comments versus with the North Pacific. There isn't an oversight hearing.
SPEAKER_03:So looking ahead, you know, if, if you were to give your magic, I call it a magic wand solution, like where you're like this, you know, I'm going to wave a wand and I'm going to fix everything. Um, you know, in not to play the devil's advocate, but just from the, from the trawler standpoint, they, they're trying to make money and they are targeting the species because of the demand, you know, the, the, the demand is there. Um, so the, They're trying to fulfill that. So looking at it from their perspective, from our perspective, how do you meet the demand and how do you reduce bycatch or eliminate it? Is there a magic wand solution for this issue?
SPEAKER_01:I'll just start off by maybe posing a question. When it comes to trawling, maybe it's to the point... where Alaskans need to ask themselves, is this type of gear still a gear that we want to see fishing our ocean? Right now, we're working with ways to engage with members of the public through a trawl bycatch policy survey that will be directed to Representative Nick Bugich. It's something that came out of one of his town halls. He kind of put... Put the question back out to Alaskans. Where do you want to see me advocate for? And so we have listed several different ways that him as a representative can take action. And so we're advertising that to the public right now. We want to hear ways not only for the representative, but also to kind of gut check people. where we're coming from in this work. And a lot of the things that we're already seeing has resonating. A lot of people kind of want to see multiple ways that this is impacted. So whether that be reauthorizing the Magnuson-Stevens Act or banning bottom trawling or banning trawling altogether, those are some of the different ways that we can engage. And I think that, you know, we've talked about the poll, for instance. You know, the first time that that question was posed to Alaskans was, you know, would you ban trawling off the coast of Alaska and federal waters? 67% of Alaskans said yes. And two years later, 74% of Alaskans are saying yes. So that's also a very important litmus test that, you know, That's a very high number when it comes to polling. We started off this discussion, this chat, talking about our work fighting the Pebble Mine, which is in a good spot. There needs to be more permanent protections in Bristol Bay, but that's in a really good spot, and it's also in a really good spot in the public view. People support protecting Bristol Bay, but that number never reached... 74% in public polling. So, you know, this is a really, really important issue for Alaskans. And I think that anyone that's running for political office and in these mediums that we have discussed today, like need to be paying attention, like, and it can't just be a campaign promise. It needs to be a campaign promise that is enacted on.
SPEAKER_03:And I think that goes into my next question was what gives you hope for that to be a reality? And I think it's just that many Alaskans are unified on this issue.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And then so just adding to what Ryan was saying and we speak so eloquently. Appreciate him. But like going back to the last in-person council meeting in February. So the advisory panel to the North Pacific Fishery Management Council has one designated tribal seat. And that makes recommendation to the full council. The full council does not have a designated tribal seat. And that's something that many organizations and communities have been advocating for, for a long time. And specifically at that meeting, you know, you, you go back and listen and hear, you know, so when you provide testimony council members will ask follow-up questions and, you know, Testifiers would say, oh, I defer to Eva, who is the tribally designated state on the advisory panel. And honestly, she should be on the council. We need to have a voice that represents us other than the status quo industry. And just looking at that from the representation standpoint, from ecosystem-based management, just looking There needs to be some change to representation to include other voices. And, you know, that's just one of the many things that could be done is, you know, adequate representation.
SPEAKER_03:Right now, you all are here on the Kenai Peninsula. You have an event at Main Street Tap and Grill tonight, which this won't come out probably until I think I forgot. I don't even know where we're at right now. End of April, probably end of next month. when this episode comes out. But where else is Samus State going this summer? Any events that you have planned or places where you plan on getting this message out?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. First off, I just want to thank Main Street for hosting us tonight. They are one of our several businesses. So currently we have nearly 50 businesses that have signed on to take action to stop trawl bycatch, and that's businesses from across the state and even from the lower 48. So if you're a business owner and you're listening, I would encourage you to check out our website, salmonstate.org slash bycatch, and join your business as well. And then to answer your question about where we're going to be next, we don't have something on the calendar quite yet. However, we're in the process of of planning out our summer outreach. So this will include various different events that will be throughout the road system. And there are events that are already community organized. So things like Salmon Fest and Mermaid Fest and things like that come to mind, farmers markets, things like that. We'll be looking at those types of events to host a table. And then we'll also probably be working with other business partners to host something very similar to this Main Street event. The owner reached out to me as we were planning our event back in February at 49 State in Anchorage and basically wanted to take that same message to people the peninsula, which is great, and I suspect that other people will continue asking us to do that, take a little roadshow. We've also talked about doing an online webinar as well for the folks that aren't connecting to these communities but still want to hear from the speakers. We tend to work with business partners and people that are impacted on a daily basis on trial bycatch issue, and so we want to make space for these folks. Um, and so we're doing that and, um, you know, we'll be meeting with the business community as well, um, trying to invite them in, um, to this work as well, because, um, you know, they might have billions of dollars on their side, but, um, we definitely have the people.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's true. Um, so if you're a business owner and you're listening and you want to get in touch with salmon state, um, salmon state.org, uh, O-R-G and reach out to them, um, And maybe you can bring them to your business. They're doing something here on the peninsula, but they're willing to get this message out to whoever's willing to listen. It seems like it's an important issue. And how do people follow what Salmon State is doing?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so we're on Instagram and Facebook. We're also just starting on Blue Sky, which is kind of a newer platform. We're also on LinkedIn and YouTube. And then, of course, we've mentioned the website. That's another way that, you know, all of our different petitions are going to be there. But we'll be posting different ways to get involved on those social media channels. We also have a weekly newsletter that goes out Saturday mornings. We talk about a lot of the things that Salmon State works on, but there's oftentimes a trawl bycatch section that's featured each week.
SPEAKER_03:Any final thoughts for the Alaskans listening? Anything we didn't touch on or anything that you want to add on?
SPEAKER_01:This is actually I wanted to include in the beginning when we were defining Salmon State. I just want to kind of put this out there. It's something that I started doing recently. Cause people kind of question who we are and then we're this outside entity, but essentially that, um, you know, salmon state is a Alaska based organization. Um, we have staff and Anchorage Eagle river Homer. Um, we also have staff in Juneau, um, Petersburg and Haines. Um, so we're kind of spread out and we're working, um, to ensure that Alaska remains the salmon state.
UNKNOWN:So.
SPEAKER_00:And, you know, just to add to Ryan's thoughts, you know, I often think about, you know, banning trawling in Southeast and how that took like a decade. And, you know, but it's winnable, right? So like you look at these, you know, I wouldn't call them small wins, but like very apparent progression over time. So it's like the more people who take action, who get involved, who voice their opinion, who, you you know, sign on their business, who sign on to a petition, who testify before the council, who contact, you know, it takes two minutes to email your representative. And so like when you show that support for something that you really care about, you move the needle and things start to change. And, you know, it's a winnable fight and it's really encouraging to see support and changes to the system. And that, You know, that's what really gets me excited is engagement and, you know, those who represent us actually listening and, you know, changing things. So it's doable.
SPEAKER_01:This is going to be a long fight, but we're here to ensure that wild salmon and the other species that are affected by trawl bycatch, you know, can have a chance to rebound and the people that depend on those species are able to, um, you know, harvest them to put them up, um, and to ensure that, um, you know, culture, economics, small businesses in Alaska are, um, protected into the future. I
SPEAKER_03:agree. And I, I'm hopeful. I think this is, um, I think this is a great cause. This is something that comes up more in conversation now and just in my circle than I think ever has before. People are talking about this. Every time I see any of our elected officials put something out on Facebook, it doesn't have to be fishing related. There are people in the comments saying, what about banning trawling? They're out there and they're diligent and they're doing great work to basically just not stay silent about this. And so you're right. It only takes minutes to, to do a petition. Um, that one that I mentioned earlier that I, I did for, um, Senator Murkowski, it, it was very short and it was basically, um, like two minutes of my day. And that, you know, now I'm on the radar. I'm another person on the radar that, that, uh, she knows or her, um, her people know that, you know, trawling is an issue that I, that I care about. Um, banning trawling is an issue that I care about. So get online, salmonstate.org. You said that there's actually petitions on the website. Cool. So yeah, start there if you want to get your name out there and show your support for what Salmon State is doing and to kick these trawlers out of Alaska.
SPEAKER_01:So this is a shameless plug. So In addition to taking action and calling your representatives, you know, we've mentioned that we're up against a multibillion dollar industry. Right. And so I think that donating to grassroots organizations and tribal organizations, not just Salmon State, we're not the only organization that is involved in this fight. But I think that putting your money behind these various different organizations is important, whether that be$10 or$100. We need ways to get more people involved, and advertising takes money. And I also want to thank you for hosting us, because this is also a way to get the message out there.
SPEAKER_03:It's our... I'd say responsibility. Like you said, it's a long fight, but it's worth it. And you should start now. So, Jackie, thank you so much for coming down to the peninsula. Ryan, thank you. And I hope, you know, people learn something today and are encouraged to take action and see this change in a positive way for Alaska.
UNKNOWN:Thank you.