Jeansland Podcast

EP 34: The Illusion of Circular Fashion with Subir Ghosh

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This week on Jeansland, Andrew sits down with Indian journalist Subir Ghosh for a clear-eyed look at how sustainability narratives often miss the mark. Subir challenges the fashion industry’s fixation on circularity, calling it more of a marketing loop than a real solution. He explains why cotton farmers in India remain under immense pressure, why worker struggles beyond the sewing floor go largely unnoticed, and how global fashion summits recycle the same conversations without meaningful results.

From the realities of farmer suicides to the limitations of regenerative cotton, this conversation underscores the disconnect between polished industry rhetoric and the lives of people who grow, spin, and dye the fibers we rely on.

For deeper reporting on these issues, visit texfash.com, where Subir is co-founder and Executive Editor, and subirghosh.in.

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SPEAKER_00:

July 29th, 2025, just about six weeks ago, as Transformers Foundation was releasing their report on water use in Indigo Dying, I was sent a very interesting group of questions by Texfash, a publication in India that I'd never heard of before. When I looked them up, I was fascinated by the co-founder and executive editor, Mr. Shubin Kosh, who is a Kolkata-based journalist researcher who writes about crony capitalism, corporate corruption, environment, conflict, and films. Not exactly the typical path journalists in the fashion industry generally follow. He started out his career in sales before switching over to journalism in 1991, and he's now leading TexFash, where he writes mostly about sustainable fashion and policy issues related to textiles and the apparel industry. He is the author of three books and has co-authored three with others. We are very proud that he would agree to do an interview with me, and we hope you like the interview. Jubin, it is an incredible pleasure to have you join our podcast. Thank you very much for making time.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you very much for having me here, and it's a privilege to be hosted by you.

SPEAKER_00:

In our industry, I'm trying to have these podcasts represent all different countries and all different players in the industry and I think you're the first journalist that we've had on and you're certainly the first person from India so I am beside myself with joy so let's start out this way what is the storyline that the fashion industry is clinging to that feels kind of out of touch to you or kind of like something's wrong

SPEAKER_01:

the main narrative that is not probably driving the industry right now is circularity there's nothing wrong about circularity fundamental speaking. But I personally feel that the industry is going overboard with it. The primary reason is that the way I've been looking at things, it seems to me that the industry is being led to believe that secularity is the way out of all problems, number one. And number two is that this is just another way of doing the same things all over again, which means that, no, you keep on doing your business and the circle becomes bigger and bigger and bigger every day. No, if the circle were to remain kind of constant in terms of circumference, no, nobody would be able to do business after a point of time. So that is the way it has been working for the last two or three years, I think.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm smiling because I love the concept that we can take garbage and reuse it. I mean, I love the concept. I went to Lensing many, many years ago. And when they asked them about their energy, they said that, I think the number in its memory is 50 or 60% of their energy was from consumer waste. And I thought, oh, that would be such a great idea in India and China. They have a lot of waste. So I love the concept of reusing anything for another purpose. Whether it's a solution to our industry, I think it's kind of a Yes, that has been the

SPEAKER_01:

problem. The industry, from what I have seen, does not really have a mind of its own. And the industry, by and large, has been doing what the big four or probably the big five consultants have been telling them to do. And they have been told, they have been made to understand that circularity is, or circular fashion, so to speak, is wonderful because you get to keep your hands clean and everyone is happy and everyone makes money and that's the way to go about it. That's why I keep on saying that the idea is always to ensure that the circle keeps bigger and bigger and bigger over time.

SPEAKER_00:

And how do people in India in the textile business regard the global north, you know, always blabbing about all the great things they're doing while they're doing nothing.

SPEAKER_01:

It's a mixed bag, really, because you have all kinds of people. There's no country as diverse as India. I mean, not only in terms of ethnicities, etc., but also in terms of opinions. You probably have not as many opinions as there are people. Now, there are lots of people who believe that the sustainability agenda of the West is being thrust on us. There are lots of people who don't have a clue what's going on. And there are lots of people who want to do things their own way. So these are no, I mean, I am pretty sure no, these three broad categories of people would be there in every country. And in India, the problem is that you don't have too many, let's, I don't like the term civilization organizations which work in this textiles, apparel, fashion space. So the only players who are the discussants, who are the only people who kind of drive the narrative, and the only people who you see at events, etc., are industry people and no one else. Which makes it extremely lopsided because all that you have, good, bad, and ugly, comes only from the industry.

SPEAKER_00:

There's no engine working on sustainability in India. Is that what you mean?

SPEAKER_01:

Not in the textiles fashion apparent space. I see. There are lots of wonderful NGOs who work in other areas, but nobody really specializes in this sector. And probably there's some scope for somebody to do in this space out here. I see. Tremendous scope, tremendous scope actually.

SPEAKER_00:

And what about regenerative agriculture in cotton? How do you see that and how does it fit inside the Indian textile industry, farming community?

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, historically speaking, the proportion of cotton versus polyester in India has been virtually the opposite of what it is globally. Globally, it's roughly. I mean, if you leave out the smaller fibers aside, it's two-thirds is polyester and one-third is cotton. Right. India is still just the other way around. But the thing is, polyester, even in India, is on a rise. And fast fashion, so to speak, has been on a relatively late entrance. India, but then again this sector, this segment of the industry has been growing as well. There's no way to quantify it because nobody has the actual numbers. But what this means is that there is tremendous pressure on cotton. And when I say pressure on cotton, I necessarily mean farmers. Now, there's been a lot of work on farmer suicides in India. In most of the cases in of the culprit crop was cotton, has been cotton. Now, which is to say that the cotton farmers in India have been historically under pressure because of various reasons, because of finance, because of being led up the garden path and because of not being guided by experts. Cotton, as you know, cotton is probably one of the most valuable weird crops the yield can vary from field to field it can vary from one part of the state to another part of the state and the requirements and other inputs that are required very drastically and dramatically from area to area which necessarily means that there cannot be one solution for all kinds of farmers and there is nobody there to give them that guidance in my opinion and And industry bodies in terms of cotton industry associations and all of, in my opinion, have not really been doing that. And that is one factor. The other factor is, you know, India, you have something called the MSP, the minimum support price that the government offers, which is the minimum price that a farmer would get for his or her produce, per quintal or per kilogram or whatever, per ton or whatever. Now, Industry. I really shudder. I really shudder because I know the The grassroots realities are very different. Cotton companies are not really in favor of cotton farmers. Cotton farmers are just there to showcase at great events and all. We love farmers and all that. But the industry doesn't really care about farmers.

SPEAKER_00:

They're kind of like mercantile slaves.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, kind of. Even to this day. And which is why, again, there are farmer organizations, there are agricultural organizations but they are not really the best people to make cotton farmers understand about what's going on because sometime back I wrote some piece about fashion for an agriculture magazine and from what I understood these agriculture experts had no idea about cotton except for how to grow it. Nobody knows what happens to cotton, where is it taken, does it go into home textiles, does it go into other consumer textiles? Does it go into technical textiles? No. Does it go into medical textiles for usage in hospitals or whatever? So my point was that if you really don't understand or know what your product is used for there are high chances that you will not know how to tackle it except to do groundwork mitigation in terms of irrigation or fertilizers. Beyond that, they don't know anything. So there's a big, big knowledge gap in my opinion. I don't know how it is in other countries, but I think by and large, except for those few NGOs, very few international NGOs, et cetera, who work directly with cotton farmers, but they work in small very small pockets to make a veil of a difference. And which is why now I always, you know, review this fact that there are no civil society organizations, no NGOs who work in this field.

SPEAKER_00:

So let me go backwards to my question. So there's conventional cotton. Then India has a long history of supplying the world organic cotton. Of course, there was lots of problems with organic cotton in India.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You're laughing, but we'll come back to that. I'd like to know, actually, if you want to share what happened. But I really want to go into the regenerative. The latest discussion in the industry that is, I think, rational is the desire to have regenerative cotton. Is it happening in India? Is it just a label? Is it another certification business?

SPEAKER_01:

Probably so, because I really don't know who comes up with these ideas and trusts them on industry, starting with circularity. We talked about circularity. Then you have regenerative cotton and all. No, there's nothing wrong with the concept. There is nothing wrong with those ideas at all. But my point is that these become kind of gimmicks for organizations. Now, and as far as regenerative cotton or regenerative agriculture is concerned, I mean, I really don't see or I haven't heard of much something that has made any impact on me. I mean, to me, it seems like an oxymoron. No, agriculture in itself should be regenerative. Now, that is what, no, historically, traditionally, agricultural practices were all about, not only in India but across the world. So, what What is this new thing that you have come up with regenerative agriculture? It's probably more of a label. But of course, there is a lot of work to be done because we know of the kind of pressures that cotton farmers have been under and we do know that soil health in many parts of India, I mean I know about, is a major issue. And if you look at agriculture not only in terms of the fields but in terms of an ecosystem, then it is certainly a subject of concern but the thing is I am not sure how these projects actually unfold on the ground unless I see these for myself and these have to work and show results not over one season but over 10-15 seasons only then you can know whether the practices that you have adopted, whether the measures that you have taken, whether those are actually working on the ground.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, the thing I wonder is isn't if you're worried about the seriously worried about the soil health isn't that a government issue more than a brand issue like some brand in America says to an Indian farmer I need you to grow your farm a certain way or I can't buy from you isn't that really the state issue like the state of Gujarat or the state I mean I don't really understand actually so you have what six million farmers in India some Probably more. Probably more. So you have millions and millions of farmers. How are you going to pass along the information to each one and then ensure each one is doing their work? It seems incredible to me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, there are lots of these issues, not only related to cotton, but also apparel, etc. When what a particular brand or a retailer wants to do, say in the US or in Western Europe, cannot work beyond a point because a lot of things need to be implemented on the ground in those respective countries. I mean, farmers is one thing. The same thing goes for apparel workers. No, it's all fine for you to say tell a brand or a retailer in the US that you must pay those minimum wages or whatever, living wages or working wages or whatever you call it in India. But at the end of the day, a garment factory here in India has to abide by the rules, by the laws here in India. And the same goes for a lot of other countries too.

SPEAKER_00:

So is there conflict between what a brand standard is and the local government standard? Is there conflict on that?

SPEAKER_01:

Probably so, especially in countries where laws are not implemented properly. India has been a signatory to all ILO conventions. It has ratified everything, but the thing is that you really need to implement things on the ground. No, or labor standards or labor living conditions vary from state to state in India because every state does things in its own way. The condition of a particular cotton farm or in one state would be very different from his counterpart in another state. Same thing goes for workers.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I was going to ask you that question. So let me ask you this. There's a garment factory in India that produces for export and also has a factory that produces for the domestic market. Is their behavior with their workers different for both?

SPEAKER_01:

No, I wouldn't think so. I wouldn't think so. Not that I know much of, but from whatever little I have seen and learned, there isn't much of a difference. But certain things would probably be different in the sense that if I have two factories, one factory makes garments for the Indian market and another makes something for, say, US or European retailers. Now, it is quite likely that buyers or company representatives would want to visit my premises sometime. So, they're likely to visit the factory unit which produces garments for the export market. So, I will ensure in my own interest that the facilities, the cleanliness, hygiene, etc. is much better than the one which caters to the export market. I mean, it's probably a very logical thing to do for everyone in any country, not only in India.

SPEAKER_00:

Hmm. How are the labor unions in India as far as government workers go?

SPEAKER_01:

See, most, again, it varies from state to state. Yes. And, say, I mean, I know a lot about the garment industry in Bangalore because that's where I lived for, you know, 10 years before shifting to Calcutta about two years back. Out there, about roughly, again, nobody knows the numbers for sure, probably 80% of the garment workers do not, come under the organized labor sector in the sense of there are no representative unions speaking for them or working for their rights. I mean, they have been trying to make inroads for a long time now, but still only roughly about 15 to 20% of the government workers are there, are affiliated with unions. Even in a small place, just a city like Bangalore, there are probably three or four unions divided different union bodies out there. And not often, but there are times when these people work at cross purposes and which really doesn't help the cause of garment workers in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00:

I see. And what is the minimum wage in India today for a garment factory?

SPEAKER_01:

I really don't know. I mean, it's a very silly thing to admit, but I really don't know. Yes. I am not aware of the exact wages it would be. Again, it would vary drastically from one company to another, from big companies to small companies. It would be very different. But my guess is that, no, export-oriented companies definitely workers and export-oriented companies get better than their counterparts in factories which are produced for the domestic market, which also is

SPEAKER_00:

huge. I guess it's different in every state, so there's no answer for that, really. All right. Let's move to the Global Fashion Summit. I'd like to hear your views on the Global Fashion Summit. First of all, I'd like you to explain what you think it is. I'd like you to tell us what you think it does and where do we go from here. So Let's go through that slowly and unpack

SPEAKER_01:

that. That's a lot of questions in one package. I'll interrupt you. Don't worry.

SPEAKER_00:

It won't be a huge monologue for you.

SPEAKER_01:

No, no. There's a lot to unpack for me out there. Earlier, when they started, it was the Copenhagen Fashion Summit. They decided to become the Global Fashion Summit, and that's when I think everything went wrong. Everything went kind of haywire, and I I'm not likely to ascribe ulterior motives to them when they started. I mean, anyone can start anything and anyone should start something. There's nothing wrong with that, fundamentally speaking. But now it's become kind of more of a circus, in my opinion. So you have, so I shouldn't be saying this, but once you start a circus, sooner and later the clowns drop in. And that is what happens with many of the many of the similar kind of events.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm going to interrupt you there for a second because when I started to do an event called Denim Days, my friend who produced our events gave me a book on the circus.

SPEAKER_01:

Really?

SPEAKER_00:

No disrespect to you. No, no, no. It was a very, very appreciated gift because the idea of a circus when you do an event is very relevant. but you make it very funny when you say sooner or later the clowns appear because yes there are many clowns in the circus

SPEAKER_01:

and yeah of course a good circus is always a great even in terms of skill sets in terms of artistry etc and the clowns are just there to just to sidetrack the audience and that is what also happens in these events except that these kind of take over the They have kind of taken over all these events in the sense that, I mean, if you look at the lineups of different panels and panelists over the last eight, ten years, you'll see that almost the same, either the same people or the same kinds of people appear on these panels over and over again, and this has been happening for the last ten years. What also happens is that most of the discussions are centers around the similar themes and... Do you want to... As far as I am concerned, I mean, there is not much to take away from these events. Those are just fireside chats. I mean, apart from that, I mean, there's no, in my opinion, there's no effort to come to a conclusion about anything that we, you know, take up an agenda and we try to, you know, hammer out a solution or whatever. Those are just discussions. And you can have these discussions over Zoom. You can have the same discussions over coffee in a cafeteria or something, and you can do the same thing in front of a so-called global audience in a setup in, say, Copenhagen or wherever. There's really no difference. I mean, these are just plain discussions. I mean, in my opinion, I mean, you should probably take up a very decisive agenda that this is a problem, this is the problem that we are going to solve, and And this problem we will solve at this summit. That is the only way it can work, actually work. Otherwise, it's just an event. I mean, who cares? I mean, they haven't made a penny worth of difference to the fashion industry in the last 10 years. Do they make money? I don't know. I mean, earlier when they started, I remember all their videos and everything, you know, used to be, you know, freely accessible. Now, I think those have all gone behind a paywall. I mean, who are you trying to fool and who are you trying to help? Are you trying to help anyone? I don't think so. Because if you really wanted to help industry, it was really, if these were actual brainstorming sessions, then what you would want is that these to be freely accessible to everyone around the world. Be it researchers, be it journalists, be it students, be it unions leaders, be it cotton farmers, anyone. Those should be accessible. That is when knowledge is supposed to be above. These are probably not anything about knowledge, but more about just discussions. I mean, nothing more than that.

SPEAKER_00:

Why do you think when there's all these sustainable conversations that there's a lack of discussion ever about, or almost ever, about workers in spinning factories or workers in dyeing factories or in the gins? They're hardly even like acknowledged as part of the industry. Once in a while, there's some discussion about labor in the sewing factories, but everywhere else, they seem to be invisible, including the farmers. Why do you think that is, and will that ever change? Or how do we change it?

SPEAKER_01:

Coincidentally, I was thinking about the same thing yesterday or the day before that, when I was just browsing through the potential questions that you might ask. If you look at these two trajectories, One is these global fashion agenda-led summits on one hand, and the post-Rana Plaza campaigns, et cetera, on the other hand. These two kind of have proceeded more or less simultaneously. More or less simultaneously. Those happen more or less, the timelines more or less coincide to quite an extent. Now, what happened with the with Rana Plaza thing was that apparel workers came totally into focus at that time and they have remained in the focus in the sustainability agenda for the same for the same period of time and for the same reasons as well and you know talking about workers you know I you know I mean just let me digress a bit in my early career etc when I was very, very activist-oriented. No, no, you always, when you start as a journalist, you are 100% an activist and less of a journalist. And then, of course, you grow over time and you become more of a journalist and less of an activist. So in those early days, we used to have these jokes that the most obscene thing is about rich people discussing poverty and how they should eliminate poverty. And there's nothing more grotesque, nothing more obscene than that. Poverty is not a financial thing to solve. Poverty is a political issue. And this is something that kind of remains everywhere. What should I say? The residual effects of those arguments are to be found everywhere. And all these big-ticket events, people love to talk about workers. They love to... show how much their hearts bleed for workers and farmers, et cetera. Saying things is one thing and implementing things is quite another. What happens at these events is that you show all your overflowing love for and overweening concern for garment workers. And because it kind of fits in with your ESG agenda, which kind of trickled in around about the same time. And that was kind of a, in my opinion, that was a way out of the environmental quagmire as it were because when you add S and you add G to it, those are no easy ways to get out of your environmental mess that you have created. So you talk more about S, you talk more about G, so you talk more about workers. I mean, you talk at least. So the discussions used to be has been a lot about workers you know how much you can do and what you should do no no we look at the lineups of and discussions at the OECD due diligence conferences that are held in every January or February every year you will find that they have been discussing the same things over the last 10 years My question to ask is, what have you done over the last 10 years? Have things really improved? Most people, most government workers will probably disagree. You have agitations for higher pays in Bangladesh every year. You have the same kind of agitation for higher pay in Cambodia everywhere. Why is it that these things happen? These things probably happen because you people have not been doing anything. In spite of showing so much of love for workers, etc., all these... So talking about workers makes for a very good story. Most, when I really doubt the numbers, but it's definitely a majority of garment workers are women. And therefore, those make for very interesting stories to put up on international platforms. And I know those, I mean, not to discredit the women workers by any means at all, but the thing is that these people kind of feed, in my opinion, or I should probably rather say scavenge on female garment workers across the world. Like you said, these apparel workers are not the only workers in industry. The textile processing itself takes place 15, 16, 17 stages. And you have workers in all those areas. You have workers in you have workers in all these different processing plants and you have workers in all these fabric factories, spinning wheels, knitting wheels, etc. And those are really, really, really many of these are hazardous as you would know. And the condition of workers in these kind of factories is not great or anything like that. These are also human beings. These are also people who are under pressure financially more than anything else. And these are also people whose cause need to be taken up. There's nothing wrong with that. But there's no news about that. There's silence. Never. Because those don't make for sexy stories. That's why. I mean, what am I going to write about a man slogging himself at a spinning mill? It doesn't make for a good story, right? I mean, I'm not talking... You're the writer. I'm also saying it in an activist sense. It doesn't make for a good report. It doesn't make for a good story. So you kind of ignore it.

SPEAKER_00:

If the challenge was to activate that segment of the business, how would you activate it? Activate in what sense? Make it sexy. Oh, no. I mean, you need a fire. And you need a lot of lives lost. And then people would pay attention.

SPEAKER_01:

That is why I know I always use these words, scavenge. You know, scavenge. Not all activists, but certain activists who come from elite backgrounds happen to do what I call scavenger activism. They feed on the debt. It's not that the condition of workers in Bangladesh has improved drastically in the last 10 years. It hasn't. Just last year, I think, or the year before that, there was this study by some NGO in Bangladesh who found that A very relatively high percentage of survivors of the Rana Plaza tragedy still don't have jobs. I mean, who is it that has gained in the last 10 years? Wow. Who is it that has gained? Tell me, who is it that has gained out of the Rana Prasad tragedy? I mean, the classic investigative journalist, journalism tactic is to just find who has benefited. And you have to see where the money has flown. Who are the people who have benefited? The person, I mean, I don't have the numbers, but you can verify that yourself. Your audience can do it themselves. Which is that you see the growth of Bangladesh's apparel industry in the last 10 years. It has grown phenomenally. But has the pain level of garment workers also risen phenomenally? It hasn't. No, absolutely not. Absolutely. So the thing is that the only ones who have benefited from the Rana Praja tragedy Is Bangladesh's apparently interesting? No one else. I mean, workers have not benefited. Just the other day, they were agitating. Minister benefited as well, from what I understand. Of course. I mean, it happens in all these small countries anyway, where politicians and big industry are. It is true across all countries, but it is particularly true of small countries where politicians and big industry, are in bed together. And this has been so for the last so many years. You know, it's funny that you say that because, you know, just the other day I was, you know, I won't name him. There's a particular personality who is widely reckoned to be a sourcing expert who knows how a barrel sourcing is done and all. You know, suddenly I find that he has changed his tack in the last few months, you know, who is against the last Prime Minister of Bangladesh who was ousted. But the thing is that if you go through his old posts on LinkedIn, five, six, seven years back also, he was also very much in with these politicians, etc. The thing is that, why is it that all of a sudden you have realized that this prime minister was corrupt? The charges of corruption against this prime minister has been there for the last five, ten years. Now, all of a sudden, you have Chase Tack and all of a sudden you love the new Bangladesh regime.

SPEAKER_00:

Now, you made me, I was never going to ask you this question, but now I'm going to ask you. So, there's all these allegations that the Bangladesh Prime Minister took money, and not money, billions, billions on billions, but India gives her home. India finds her a good guest. Why? She's helped use the genocide besides the money, and yet she is living peacefully in India. Why?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yes, this is probably create a heated discussion out here as well see the backdrop was that her father was the first president of the country and India played a big part in Bangladesh's independence struggle as it were and after her father was brutally assassinated she knew What refuge in India? So that those historic ties have always been there. And it is probably something that she fell back on when she fled Bangladesh last August, I think it was. I mean, it's been a year now. And she was given refuge in India. There are lots of opinions about it, about why India did that. One is probably there's a historical context there. The other thing is that the present regime doesn't like, it's not that they love Hasina, but it's that they hate the dispensation which is an alternative to which is much more Islamist in dispensation. So we have a Hindu right-wing government here in India. So you have the potential of, I'm talking of last to power in Bangladesh. So that is probably the right thing you think, right thing to do, and therefore you allow her here. That is one of the prevailing arguments here.

SPEAKER_00:

I got it. Thank you for sharing. So as we're kind of winding down here, do you see any serious media outlets covering trade policy, subsidies, currency manipulation, or fashion issues in a hard way. Is there anybody in the world writing about what's really going on that you admire or you read? Not

SPEAKER_01:

really. I mean, most of the stuff, I mean, not in the textile fashion space, certainly. No, no, whatever. I mean, I used to follow the RCEP or the RCEP negotiations, you know, when they started about 12-13 years back I used to follow that very diligently and it used to be very difficult for me to find a textile or a fashion angle to it because nobody else nobody was actually covering it so much except if I wanted to read about how it affects the textile business in each of the constituent or member countries as it were I could find very little information anywhere So except for those few, so you find good information, relevant information, credible information, more in academic studies. And in mainstream media or even in business media, so to speak. No, you could never, I could never find anything. And the same goes for, no, trade in general. Trade in general. Everybody has been talking about the tariffs imposed by the US, but that's probably only because people either like Trump or hate Trump. So that's the reason why people have been talking so much about tariffs and you know he has come up with really big numbers so no it affects everyone to a great extent so that is probably one of the reasons that people have been talking a lot of tariffs which so I mean if you find all these articles here and there in the fashion business media etc you will find the talk is more about Trump or more about retailers or something rather than discussing things at the policy level. All these reportage and all these analyses are extremely cosmetic. Those only skim the surface. Trade is something extremely deep. If you have to understand things, you have to make people understand. You have to make readers understand. You really need to dive deep. And I don't think anybody does that, I mean, I really wonder how many people have gone through, you know, all those, you know, those huge, you know, trade deals that are sent, those are running to hundreds and hundreds, probably thousands of pages, and which all those, you know, HSN codes and everything, who understands all those things? Who understands? I mean, except people who actually export and who actually import, but other people don't understand these things. Now, I've gone through those, you know, huge annexures and I mean, you really have to understand how those work to be able to make your readers to be able to make your audience understand what are the no what are the nitty gritties I mean how things work and how things don't how things affect how a particular tariff exemption or some duty affects production in your country why does it affect production in your country will you be able to sell such things in this country will you be able to settle certain things to that country but these are extremely important things and I personally feel these are not really discussed so much and given the recent backdrop in the last 5-6 years trade was always kind of a kind of a weapon always it has historical mean so but it has not been weaponized to this extent in the last 5-10 years primarily by the US and also to great extent by the EU and given this backdrop I think it's extremely important to talk about actual trade because there is no industry which is this dependent on trade as the fashion industry

SPEAKER_00:

that's true All right, I have two final questions for you. I think they're both kind of interesting questions. And the first question is, if there was a headline, a headline that you wish to see, what would it look like? It's

SPEAKER_01:

not a tricky question, actually. It's a very difficult thing to answer. I

SPEAKER_00:

mean, what do you want to read? The second question that goes behind it is, what long story would you like to publish? So it's two questions. What would you like to see and what would you like to publish yourself?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I would really love to investigate all these consultancies who have, in my opinion, misled the fashion industry. Historically speaking, the fashion industry has been kind of laggards in many things. It was very slow in adopting or adapting themselves to IT. The fashion industry is historically slow. And when this sustainability agenda and all kind of came about, I mean, they had no clue what to do and what was what and all that. Now, no disrespect to them. I'm not saying they are ignorant or they are fools or whatever. The thing is that there are people who are in a particular industry who don't know, who don't know for whatever reason. Let's give it to them. They don't know. They didn't know anything about it. And so the same people... who advised fashion companies to go the whole hog in 2000 on fast fashion, on sensitive fibers, you know, 25 years ago. The same people are advising the industry on how to make themselves, like, how to make themselves sustainable. You know, I would really laugh myself to death if it were that funny. I mean, seriously. But the thing is, you know, can it take some more time to give the context here. You want to add anything you can? Yeah, of course. I mean, it's extremely important to understand why this has happened. Why all this has happened, not only in the fashion industry, but everywhere else. You know, the history of modern environmental activism or anything kind of starts in 1992 with the Rio Summit. Now, there was a backdrop to that which started from the 1960s from know from Rachel Carson's Silent Spring and then following the Brantland Commission's report in 1987 leading up to the 1992 Rio Summit. Now from 1992 Rio Summit till about 2005 the things were in an absolute mess in the sense that if you want to make the world a better place, you need to have businesses, you need to have industry on board as well. You may not like them, you may dislike them wholeheartedly, but the thing is the need to have them on board to discuss things, to sort things out. And none of the UN bodies, none of the... could have industry on board for discussions. The only thing the industry was doing always was kind of scuttling efforts. No, they didn't have a role to play. They didn't want to have a role to play. But it changed in around about 2005 when the UNEP, it keeps on changing its name, the United Nations Environment Program, which is now known as UN Environment. But let's call them UNEP. When they came up with the Millennium ecosystem assessment. That's when it was an official document which brought businesses and industry on board. Do you want to say some closing

SPEAKER_00:

remarks?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I would love to do an investigative piece on how these big-ticket consultancies have on one hand, led the fashion industry up the garden path, and kind of the second is kind of what takes off from the first, which is that they have actually been misleading the fashion industry. That is the reason why you have all these contradictory figures where you have all these summaries where everybody says that we are going to do this, we are going to do that, we are going to increase our recycled fiber intake, we are going to do this sustainably. We are going to do that in a more circular way. But the bottom line is that the emissions are still up. Every year you have all these reports from Stand.org and from other organizations which always come up with these numbers which shows that the emissions are up over the previous year. So that necessarily it really means that the bottom line is that the bottom line is not working, which is that whatever you talk about, whatever you preach is not working. So if things are not working, then you should go into the reasons behind it. Why is it not working? And I don't see any introspection in the industry about trying to find out. It's probably because the people who are advising you are not doing the right things. You probably need to get a new set of advices.

SPEAKER_00:

On that happy note, I would like to tell the audience that Shabeen has a website called techsfash.com and you might want to visit it if you want to get some news from India. I think it's a nice place to go and check it out. I really appreciate you, Shabeen, for being here with us. It's delightful to talk to you and hope we can do it again soon.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, thank you, Andrew. I And it's been, like I said, it's been a privilege to be hosted by Andrew Holder. Thank you so much. Thank you. Have a good night. Thank you. Have a good day.