Ep 74: The Future of Traceable Cotton with Imran Asghar

Pakistan’s cotton crop is recovering. But that is only part of the story.

In Episode 74, Andrew sits down again with Imran Asghar, Head of Asia Pacific at FibreTrace, to discuss cotton, traceability, sustainability, and the growing pressure to prove where products actually come from. FibreTrace uses physical tracers and real-time scanning to help verify fiber movement through the supply chain.

The discussion begins in Pakistan, where cotton acreage is expanding after several difficult years. They discuss seed quality, government support, farmer economics, water availability, and the challenges facing growers as costs rise across the region.

From there, the discussion moves into traceability. 

How cotton is tracked through the supply chain. Why less than two percent of global cotton is physically traceable today. And why brands, governments, and consumers are increasingly asking for more than certifications and paperwork.

They also explore competing approaches to verification, the role of technology in authenticating origin claims, and why proving sustainability may become just as important as making it.

Along the way, they look at water use, regenerative agriculture, cluster farming, and the efforts underway in countries such as Pakistan and Uzbekistan to strengthen both cotton production and textile manufacturing.

Underneath it all is a larger question: as sustainability claims become more common, how will the industry distinguish between what can be documented and what can actually be verified?

Thank you to our sponsor Inside Denim.

Imran Asghar
Head of Asia Pacific, FibreTrace® | Cotton Traceability
FibreTrace®, Instagram, LinkedIn

Please follow us on: Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. 

Transcript

Andrew 0:00

I am here once again with Mr. Imran Asgar. I think he's in Karachi today. Are you are you Imran? You're in Karachi?

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Yes, I am in Karachi.

Andrew 0:10

The last time we did um a conversation, this is our second podcast together. We were sitting each with each other at a coffee table in my hotel in um Lahore. And I got sick in Lahore and had to have medical attention and got really amazing medical attention. And then August of this past year, I had an operation to fix that problem. But that was the last time we met, which for me was very memorable, not just because of his great company and knowledge, but also because there's a lot going on in my life at that particular moment. So, Imran, I'm healthy. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:47

I'm good. Uh, you know, with the current situation, overall the global politics in that little bit, you know, uh we are waiting for, and we are assuming that there would be some surprises maybe next day or next week. So we don't know. But overall, uh, in terms of the personal and the family matter, I'm really in a good position. And uh on the business point, yes, it's a little bit a struggling phase in Pakistan considering these oil prices, etc. But in general, we are really uh in a good way and ready for to accept any new challenge.

Andrew 1:24

All right, well, that's since this is topical, um, today is April the 20th. So I don't know when this podcast will come out. But what is the situation politically? I mean, Pakistan, oddly, is right in the middle of this war because he's negotiating with everybody. There must be tons of gossip flying around everywhere that everyone knows somebody from Israel that has some story. We're a friend of a friend. We're always a few people away from the actual story. What is going on?

SPEAKER_01 1:54

So, overall, like uh considering as a Sun Sebal Nation, as Pakistan, we believe in the peace and harmony uh within the religious, and that's why being uh uh like center of this, all the war zone, uh we as a Pakistan national always uh prefer to have a peace talk and everything that can be discussed and solved on the table rather than fighting with each other. So, considerable, like yes, there are uh some high-level movements uh in Islamabad. In fact, uh the red zone is strictly scotten down. Uh high officials from US and in Army and Gonvit are visiting. So we hope like the the second round of this uh peace talk will be result in a fruitful way where the both parties would be agree. And as a Pakistan uh national, uh as a Pakistani, we believe that uh the peace is the last resort and the top table talk is the last resort. And we hope that the both nations like US and Iranian come to a mutual agreement to peace and settle down this uh entire global uh, I would say, the situation that everybody is a little bit, you know, struggling with the energy arrangement, energy crisis, and even the logistic nowadays, that logistic is gone skyrocket as well. So we hope for the best.

Andrew 3:20

So this has impact for the local people who work in the factories, so or who farm or who do anything. What is the actual impact on the um on the average person in Pakistan?

SPEAKER_01 3:31

So if I talk about like a general financial uh impact that have been um like which is a direct hit to the labor community and uh middle ground stop like me and and uh even the uh daily wage worker, that the fuel price, once the fuel price is gone skyrocket, everything is the price got inflated. For example, uh the vegetable need to move from the farm to the Mondays, that's required the vehicle, and vehicles use the fuel, and fuel is already expensive. So they charge a higher uh transportation cost, which is resulting a higher price on the vegetable. So the similar things that is impacting, and uh the problem is the price is gone really skyrocketed where the government had started some initiative, uh uh like the people of Pakistan that who are using um motorcycle like under 100 cc cylinder size, uh they got like uh a little bit of subsidy from the government, but at the same time, the price is impacting whoever is using car and upper grade uh you know the vehicle for the communication.

Andrew 4:42

But you're talking about an average salary um of what? What is the average?

SPEAKER_01 4:46

How many rupees is the average average, like it's it's a little bit uh variation from uh provision uh provisional governments, like uh Punjab have a different pay scale and then uh uh Sindh have a different, but as of today, like a minimum wage is 38,000, uh, which is like not significant to survive um in a peaceful way. But it's a challenging but uh with the recent uh hike in the fuel prices, um the common men they were already struggling, they are under the poverty line.

Andrew 5:21

And 38,000 is roughly what in in dollars?

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Uh 38,000 would be roughly around uh like 135 to 140.

Andrew 5:32

Depending upon the current if the price of living goes up 10%, that's a really big deal. Yes, indeed. And that's going on in India and Bangladesh, everywhere in the region, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Of course, it will impact the entire region who are depending on the Middle East fuel. So that means everyone, uh like the middle uh class uh people, they would be in a uh big trouble to manage their livelihood at children's education, uh, and the day-to-day, you know, the food and other arrangements. So this is challenging. That's why uh we as a Pakistani prefer to have a peace talk. So everything would be settled on and the common people there who they are not directly involved in the global politics, but just because of the global political uh decision, they are in a struggling phase.

Andrew 6:25

All right. Let's talk about the cotton situation in Pakistan, regardless of the war before the war. Um, how is the cotton industry doing this year compared to the last two years?

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Uh I would say uh since last two years, when we were talking about the production was nearly got dropped down by 50%. But uh last year, uh after the Harvest government and the local bodies and local tax style bills, they really worked together as uh one T. And now we are expecting that the cotton production comparatively last year, it will be increased 30 to 40 percent. Up. Up. Yes, compared to last year.

Andrew 7:09

Well, that's a big difference.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Yeah.

Andrew 7:11

And why? Is it because of seed quality, because of any kind of growing technique? What is the reason?

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Uh it is a two-way. Uh the seed quality is being changed. Government have took the initiative to invest uh on the field level, and the textile industry, they had also adopted like the farm cluster farming practices. So they uh like really invested in the cotton farming. So they are providing facilities and subsidized seed, fertilizer, and the training as well.

Andrew 7:42

But Pakistan, the last time I was there, we're talking about a thousand different seed qualities.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

That's still there.

Andrew 7:49

So that's still there. I don't think there's been any IP regulational change, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Uh it's under discussion because we are struggling with, you know, uh some uh diluted uh qualities from Monsanto. So the government are taking really a strict action. And the problem was last year that when we were talking about even the seed quality was not approved by the seed council, that was in the market. This year, the government had really taken uh strict uh uh policies to safeguard the farmer investment.

Andrew 8:24

So the farmers able to buy something more reliable.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

Yes, exactly.

Andrew 8:30

And are there more farmers this year than last year, or is it just in the in the yield that you're noticing?

SPEAKER_01 8:35

It's uh just like uh coverage of land. The farmers still remain the same. The last year, what happened? The farmer that was cultivating like uh 15 acres or uh 20 acres, they got down like five to two acres. This year they had increased uh their uh cover cotton coverage area. So the number of cotton is the main same, but the cotton acres are increased drastically.

Andrew 9:02

I see. And the weather has obviously been good this year. Yes, of course. Okay. Now, I the audience should know that Imran works for Fibertraces in Australia. Can you can you explain your job at FiberTrace, what it is you do for fibertrace?

SPEAKER_01 9:22

So, considering my background in the raw material strategy and managing the supply chain when I work for CNA between 2011 and 17. So, my role in uh in South Asia uh at fiber trace as the head of Asia Pacific to manage the program that are initiated by the Tier 4 partner, whether it's a grower or the ginner, and the brand initiative. So I worked parallel, like uh working tier four and then managing expectation from the brand side, uh, and to manage the entire program, like where the cotton is growing, how much cotton is really need to mark, what type of cotton program that are inducted into the traceability program, whether it's organic or better cotton program or region agricultural program. So I do manage like entire Asia, and then uh as general, uh I also support with the help of uh client success team in fiber trails, if anybody required relevant training how to handle equipment, software, and uh how to monitor this fiber journey throughout the fiber trace network. All right. So I oversee the entire business strategy in APAC region.

Andrew 10:42

Okay. I'm interested in the scale and the size of the market for cotton where somebody cares where it's from. So what is the market size, in your opinion, of overall percentage of cotton, the people who buy it, buy apparel or buy fabric, care if it's marked or not, or if it's if it's if the origin is known?

SPEAKER_01 11:06

So there are a couple of things that we need to understand. Um in terms of the percentage, it still is niche. Really? Really? Uh niche in the terms of like the number of the brands. The brands are now relying uh on a different tool, whether it's a digital traceability or whether it's a DNA extension, etc. There are a couple uh, I would say the innovative brands that would uh take care about the real-time verification, they have taken initiative to go into deeper, like uh not only uh just origin verification, but the journey where is the fiber moving around. So if I tell you like the the overall market uh in terms of uh potential, more than 60 to 40 percent cotton can easily trace through the fiber trace technology because we present in every cotton growing country, whether it's Australia, Pakistan, India, and whether it's American region like US and Brazil.

Andrew 12:10

Well, okay, I'm I mean that's that's interesting, but I'm I'm interested more for the moment in the total picture. So you have competitors, fiber trace has a lot of competitors, and you have oratane, which is a competitor in another in another way. What is the market share of all your competitors, fiber trace and oratane, all put together today in the cotton industry? In other words, how much of today's cotton is marked or checked?

SPEAKER_01 12:41

So in general, if I talk about like the uh traceable cotton is less than two percent in general, whether it's uh marked by fiber trace or oritan or any other uh traceability company.

Andrew 12:55

You think two percent Yep Wow. But isn't all the cotton that comes to the United States from China? People have to check it, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Of course. Uh like uh we do have some programs that are uh marked the US cotton, and that the US cotton is being shipped to China to ensure that they are not using any bad region cotton. And one of the reasons that the biggest volume of our marked fiber is moving through the Chinese supply chain.

Andrew 13:27

So okay, let me get this straight. So uh uh a brand will use cotton, American cotton that is marked by fiber trace, ship it to China, make the whatever they're making in China, and then ship it to the USA, and then they'll do it that way.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Yes, indeed, this is the way like uh the most of the brand are working with us. And why they are using like this marked fiber and marking in the US, because you know already that the fiber test technology required any changeover to conduct and physical audit using our handhold devices. So that device actually captured the geolocation and also verify the signature that is inside of the cotton. So that's why the cotton moved from the US to the Chinese region, and once it's getting back, they are able to scan real time without wasting any time for you know the logistics and conducting a DNA extraction, which normally and usually require three to four weeks to get results out. So this technology gives a real-time authentication less than 13 seconds.

Andrew 14:37

Who are your basic competitors?

SPEAKER_01 14:42

In terms of the technology, I don't consider that we have real competitors in the market, but yes But that's like saying the Rolling Stones have no competition.

Andrew 14:52

I get that. But there are other musicians, so there are other players in the industry. Who are they? And what do you think of them?

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Uh like uh other player in traceability, Alexia, Telerex, and on DNA extensions, isotop.

Andrew 15:10

Let's start with Alexia first. What does Alexia do?

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Halexia uses synthetic DNA, which is uh uh like they are uh spraying on the fiber. Spraying? Yeah. It's it's a the it's like a liquid form they are spraying on the fiber.

Andrew 15:29

And how reliable is that when it comes to genes?

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Uh that would be a like a direct conflict. But if I talk about my own experience, when I was in CNA, we were conducting like a couple of uh, you know, uh the test trial. Um and even like early days on the fiber case, we were developing this technology, we conduct uh some trial on the spray. So spray doesn't exist, like doesn't sustain the textile processing and the temperature and the physical deterioriation like branding, scrapping. The spray always gets out, washed out. So, from my own personal perspective, spraying uh like uh tracer will not make a big uh uh significant impact on the traceability.

Andrew 16:21

And what about the the the oratane and their system of checking? The US government loves it, a lot of people love it. It's very it's very expensive, no?

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Yeah, indeed it's a very extensive. And um as as a textile expert, uh, like I do consider uh in terms of a layer of verification, but that's really required a very rigorous investment in terms of collecting the baseline data. For example, uh every harvest change the soil structure because the plant uptake the micro and uh macronutrients uh that are in uh in the soil. So every harvest, the soil structure gets changed, and to man manage those uh soil uh necessities, farmers use the input, whether it's uh sometimes it's a synthetic input, sometimes it's a natural fertilizer, they always add into the soil. So getting based on the soil data to verify uh fiber origin, it's quite complicated. And then uh one most important part is like most of the cotton growing region in India and Pakistan, it's sharing the same soil structure. And even in the past, it was like a one subcontinent. So considering like the soil structure we have in Pakistan, similar we have in India, to very and um by the way, the cotton gin that is being used in India and Pakistan, it's the same. So it is a little hard to verify like 100% or whether that the CPS from Indian cotton or it's from Pakistani cotton field. So every time they need to get the soil data and it's really difficult task. As of today, nobody can extract the exact soil data that large amount of cotton growing region.

Andrew 18:19

Okay. Um I think that's reasonable. The other thing that seems to me, and I'm not an expert in this, is that if you want to test something, you have to send it by courier somewhere. Yes. Because I assume that the um the test sample has to go somewhere. Maybe it has to go to two places, I don't even know. Then that in itself is an expense is a use of our resources in our world for kind of odd reasons when you could actually scan something. So I unfortunately to be fully honest with our audience. Um I am a big believer in fiber trace. Um from the moment that I saw the technology, I thought it was fantastic. I am a big, big believer. I'm totally biased, but I like the technology because it's the technology that's used in money, in passports. The technology of instant verification. When you can avoid any kind of courier involved, the idea of a courier involved to tell you where something's from versus scanning it, the concept is so crazy to me and so like insane. And you don't even need to know anything about textiles or anything to know about anything. You just simply know that if you could have instant verification from a scanner versus a courier, uh what what what possible benefit could the other one have? So that's where I'm from. So I'm biased as we get into this discussion. All right, let's change gears again. Can we talk about traceability needed with regards to sustainability? What is the relationship between that?

SPEAKER_01 20:00

So in terms of uh, you know, the sustainability, most of the program that's relies on the third-party auditing. Like uh if we talk about uh metal cotton program and regenerative agriculture program or organic cotton program, that's relies on the third-party audit. And the implementation has been done on the farm level that can be only verify the through twice audit in a year. Whereas once that farm is got a certification, it's moved through the supply chain, which is a complex supply chain ever we have in the industry, uh, which is a textile, like uh from farm to gene, there are multiple traders involved, and from gene to spinner is the same way. So, in that uh during this transaction from farm to ginner and ginner to spinner, these sustainable cotton got substituted by other conventional cotton. So, here we come seen as a physical traceability that ensures the cotton have a certain sustainability claim or certification program that are moving through with the physical tracer after ginning can be verified through all the supply chain. And rather than waiting for a documentary evidence, the fiber itself verifies whether it's organic cotton or it's come from organic supply chain or regenerative cotton farming program or battle cotton program. That's why I say that the sustainability is an element and that impact being marked and communicated through fiber trace technology to the fashion industry. So that is most important part.

Andrew 21:40

All right, so let me go backwards and rephrase this. So there's when you talk about sustainability programs in cotton, you're talking about either organic or or react, basically.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Yeah.

Andrew 21:51

All right. So the question becomes how do you monitor that it really is organic and it really is um regenerative cotton? And the next thing is when you go into the spinning, how do you know that it's not blended with regular conventional carton or even replaced? And one way of doing all this is through is through data and through certifications. So somebody follows it and they and they they assign some certification that says it is what it is. The other way is to market.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

So there are two elements of your question. One is that whether it's how it's moved the sustainable cotton program from farm to gin, and then how we uh like control the blending into the spinning uh facility. So the first part is like most of the cotton programs that are enrolled uh in in the community farming program, for example, whether it's the producer farm group under the battle cotton program or organic cotton program as well. So those third party verify the practices of the sustainable agriculture practices that happen on the farm and after goes through the regress auditing and verification, that goes into uh the ginner. And in our program, we have partner ginner that who had invested actually to secure a real organic fiber, to secure a real better cotton program and re-generated cotton program. And they are kept segregated on the gin. Once it's added physical traceability, then it's uh working through the technical technological tools like fiber trace handhold scanning device. So every movement, every cotton veil or lot that are being moved from ginner to spinner, it's required to conduct an audit, and that audit required only 30 seconds. So just imagine for a DNA extraction, you have to courier a parcel to a third country, which will take like a week time minimum, and then four to five weeks to conduct and regress deep anal DNA analysis to verify whether it's organic or whether it's cotton made in Africa, Pakistan, or India. Okay?

Andrew 24:12

Can that system check if it's organic or can it check only where it's from?

SPEAKER_01 24:17

So our system verifies the country of origin, point of origin. The certification is relies on the audit, third-party audit, like such as control union and other certification bodies.

Andrew 24:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Okay. So let's assume that the one cotton that we mark uh with fiber trace as organic that's moved through the supply chain and is entered into the spinner premises. So that's the area where most of the dilution or mixing happens. So once the spinner knows this cotton lot is coming with the physical traceability, they care about authenticity. So our technology actually, if there would be an intentional or unintentional blending during the processing, our handhold device, like this device, can deduct the blending into the original fiber. For example, whether it's blended with 8020, 5050, or 6040, we can see the mark cotton are being blended with other non-marked cotton. So the tracer is actually gives the signal to our platform if the blending has happened. If not, it will verify it's a hundred percent authenticate organic or better cotton program. So this is how we are managing supply chain traceability and the blending uh process as well.

Andrew 25:44

What is the relationship between um your organization and, for instance, um Better Cotton? What system do they like to use to mark theirs or to or to verify theirs?

SPEAKER_01 25:56

So we uh like we do have an open door policy. We are here to validate the impact claim. For example, the agriculture practices that invested in terms of training uh and uh providing equipment and necessary um exchange of knowledge for the better agriculture practices done by battle cotton and their implementation partner. Um and our technology ensures that uh that sustainable cotton program, which was invested by battle cotton or any other partner, are really being transmitted and communicated to the fashion world uh as authenticate fiber. So the relationship between us and fiber trace, uh sorry, fiber trace and uh battle cotton, we do support any cotton program regardless whether it's come under umbrella of battle cotton or under NOP, NPOP, or uh region agri. We are here to support and validate the impact data that are being invested on the farm level, can be communicated with the size-based evidence to the fashion industry and real-time verification, of course.

Andrew 27:12

And what is the relationship between your organization and the national government um with regards to cotton?

SPEAKER_01 27:19

So, if I talk about the national government, we are supporting uh some of the government level initiatives. Um and it's again, it's a public-private partnership where our ginners have like uh mediator to communicate and rely and support the government initiatives such as national sustainability efforts that are being uh invested in the form of the training and other things. So we are supporting those government initiatives to communicate to the fashion world that now it's not only a standard requirement, it's something that where is the federal government is also involved, regardless whether it's a government from the government of Pakistan, a government of India, or government of Uzbekistan, we are working with the government agencies to add impact and communicate their investment to the uh to the world that now these countries' cotton are credibility and compliance point of view is reliable to verify as a country of origin that these sustainable cotton come from Uzbekistan or Pakistan or India.

Andrew 28:34

Is all of this scalability possible in a big supply chain? Is there is there limitations?

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Uh this kind of program actually that's works uh in ideal situation on the larger scale, like considering the smallholder uh farming community in Africa, in India and Pakistan, the impact or implementation of physical traceability is really expensive. But if the program is on large scale, for example, uh 20,000 hectare area that are under cultivation under one processor or producer unit or under one uh cluster program, so the implementation cost will be divided by that uh number of farmers, number of acres. So the impact of the overall traceability will got reduced. For example, a farmer that's owned only 25,000 or 25 hectare area of land, and if he wanted to adopt this technology, this will become a very high expensive program for them. But the same program, if that is covered like 25,000 hectare area, the price impact will drastically reduce to like two, three cents.

Andrew 29:53

So that leaves that leaves out little farmers and actually brings in big farms, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:59

No, we do promote like a cluster farming group, for example, in India and Pakistan, the program that we are running with our Jinner partner. It's actually a small older farmer that are enrolled in this program. They own only two two acre, three-acre, five-acre area. So they are club into one uh processing unit under the leadership of our ginner who monitor who supports on the ground level, you know, the training and other procurement exercise, and the cost they are bearing.

Andrew 30:32

And that cost you think is like two cents a pound.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

So that is like depend upon like uh uh the scale of the cotton program. Yes, it would be uh like less than five cents per pound.

Andrew 30:45

Less than five was a big difference between two and five.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Yeah, if if you consider like uh in terms of uh the volume, uh then uh like large scale program that will be impacting two to three cents per point.

Andrew 31:02

I see. How much percent of a c of Pakistan cotton that's put into garments do you think has any sustainable feature whatsoever?

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Yeah, there are like dozens of, you know, the sustainability program is running, and particularly Pakistan uh is the number one uh better cotton producer. And since last couple of years, battle cotton has moved from you know uh the battle cotton initiative to our region agri-cotton program. So there are uh like uh we do have uh the battle cotton region agri program and a couple of textile mills, for example, Surti, Artistic, Sophia, Dishar, Interlow, they had invested on their own cotton program as well. And then Organic Cotton Accelerator is also investing with the partner of this uh big textile mill on organic cultivation. So altogether, if I talk about, we are running more than six to seven different cotton programs in Pakistan.

Andrew 32:07

How do you see the future?

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Um like next two to three years, there would be a high demand of the traceable cotton program. And of course, with the challenging the waters crisis and the climate, the now the people will ask whether if anybody is claiming it's a sustainable cotton program, for example, organic, but the authenticity is really organic. Apart from the, you know, the lab analysis, they really need to see whether it's coming from the right place that are listed on the certification or not. So I can see next two, three years is very important for the textile and the cotton industry to adopt this physical traceability technology.

Andrew 32:50

Do you think governments will get involved in that?

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Without government support, uh, like in the context of the small holding farming community, uh, it's necessary to government invest in terms of uh you know, subsidize uh this kind of technology where the most and uh like more and more farmers they can enroll into the program. So the farmer really like struggling with the financial arrangement and these ginner and the textile mill, somehow they had started last two, three years to support a little bit financial. But the thing is, until unless the government is getting involved, like 100% uh making some public-private partnership to adopt this technology, um, then um standalone farmers can't sustain this. So, yes, uh the government investment really needed.

Andrew 33:46

I mean it would seem to me to be logical to just trace every bail in Pakistan, which would give the whole country's cotton farming an advantage over every other country. And the apparel that comes out of Pakistan would have an advantage over every other apparel in every other country. I don't understand why they wouldn't do that.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

So the country, if I talk about like government have a different program, they are like uh busy to go backwards.

Andrew 34:15

Let me go backwards. For example, if the government owned shares in the business, then they wouldn't even cost that much because they would own part of the company. So it seems to me that the country could really improve their whole quality service to everybody.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Yes, indeed, and they will claim as a branding made in Pakistan cotton. For example, we know that the cotton made in Africa, it's a kind of a collaboration from the government, private, and the farmer, and even NGOs, they have invested together and all it's a branded fiber which is available. And the people in Europe they really like it because the government themselves they support the program, the farmers themselves they support the program, and NGOs also invested. So the similar project, similar concept can be replicated here. Um I'm not giving any example of Austinian farmers because they are really rich and they are very large. So they invested a lot of in terms of their own uh initiative. Individual farmers they have initiated like a different program. So they sustain and they actually made it a branded fiber to more engage with the brand and other partner to commit their program. For example, our parent company, good earth cotton program, that is a farmer initiative.

Andrew 35:38

You want to talk about good earth cotton? What is that?

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Uh good Earth Cotton is one of the world's first climate-positive cotton programs. That program was started back in 2007 as a baseline, and eventually, by year on year, they have improved the cotton uh soil structure on the farmland, and actually uh the entire farm is a climate positive, so they don't omit the carbon, they actually sequester the carbon into the soil.

Andrew 36:10

The carbon positive cotton. Yes. Can that be done in Pakistan?

SPEAKER_01 36:16

It can be replicated anywhere. There is no barrier. Only the thing is that this kind of program really required a massive training and protocol and baseline data collection, which required a funding support. And Pakistan, the farmer, like the smallholder farmer, they can't afford those kinds of training and the data collection.

Andrew 36:38

That would solve so many environmental issues. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Indeed, because this program covers not only uh carbon calculation at the farm level, but on the supply chain level as well, and then uh water secrecy. And you know the Pakistan is always struggling with the water availability, and this actually ensures uh like three to five different United Nations sustainable development goals that is a poverty aviation, women empowerment, climate, irrigation, and well-being as well.

Andrew 37:12

Let's talk about water for a second. What is the situation with um water in Pakistan? What's going on?

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Uh so the water challenges always like is based on the relation we have, unfortunately, with our neighbor country in India. And there is a conflict between the last uh water agreement that was supervised by the World Bank as well. So on the peak season, the cottage uh the water availability is less than 600 liters per capita in Pakistan in general, and where is the 900 liters that's required? So if we talk about like uh green water or gray water and rainfed, that is helping the Pakistan agriculture segment to not to rely 100% on the fresh water.

Andrew 38:04

How much of your of your cotton is uh rain fed and how much is irrigated?

SPEAKER_01 38:10

So most of area I would say that uh in Punjab and Sinn that are irrigated is the canal, and in Baloche San uh let's say 30 to 40 percent is the landfed. And then uh they extract the water and the uh subsurface.

Andrew 38:31

In the subsurface water situation, it's getting lower and lower every year, I would assume.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Uh yeah, it's a lower everywhere, but in uh like uh area of Lutistan where no electricity, the people are dependent on the solar energy. So in that way, they are actually using less water than actually it's required for the cotton.

Andrew 38:53

Go into detail about that, please.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

So I actually have done one organic cotton program back in 2017, uh, 18 and 19 in the Blochistan area. So that uh actually gave me really to calculate the water at that time, you know. Uh one of the global NGOs always making a claim that 20,000 liters is being used to produce one uh one kg of cotton. Yeah, I I I did some, you know, the random uh calculation at that time. So the peak hour was like 9 to 5 in the Balochistan area where the sun is rarely visible to the solar panel and the farmers they can extract the ground level water. And that once we have done the calculation, we came to know that in Balochistan area, in our farm area, that we were using a conventional method to irrigate the farmland, we use only 1600 liter water to produce one kg of cotton.

Andrew 39:57

1600 liter is really a good number.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Yeah. And and the the reason was like the nature was helping them to uh optimum utilization of the water because the sun is only uh only available for eight hours. So that is the one of the reasons uh the water uses in Bulochistan is for less than comparatively seen in uh uh Punjab area.

Andrew 40:25

It's very interesting. Imran, tell us about what's going on in Uzbekistan. I hear that there's a lot of yarn being exported from Uzbekistan.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

So, a very high level to give you producing a 30 count in Pakistan is really expensive. If we are importing from Uzbekistan, it is like 30 to 40 percent cheaper than to produce in Pakistan. One of the core reasons is like the energy cost, then the labor cost. So both costs are really very cheap in Uzbekistan. And this is one thing which is under the Uzbek government initiative, they are providing a subsidized energy to textile milk. And not only textile meal, actually, they ensure whatever cotton produced in Uzbekistan should be converted either into yarn or fabric or product within Uzbekistan. So they are selling a value-added product rather than exporting standalone fiber. So now they made a policy. If anybody is putting a textile mill in Uzbekistan, he must have a contract farming under the cluster farming agreement where the farmer can produce the cotton for that mill. And the government is supporting all this initiative, whether the farmer required uh high-tech new machinery drip irrigation or any training or a training-related uh you know activities. Even I see their federal minister of agriculture, he himself is visiting on the farm. So you can see his LinkedIn. Every day he is somewhere in the farm area. So this is the level of investment Uzbek government have done to improve their farmers and their practices and to support their textile industry.

Andrew 42:18

The cluster farming concept in Uzbekistan, can you explain that with regards to small farmers, what that means for them?

SPEAKER_01 42:26

So, the cluster farming, if I talk about the high-tech machinery, whether it's a sewing machine, tillet machine, or a harvester, you know, that's actually a financially viable if you own a large farmland. For example, one John Deere harvester, they can cover like 5,000 acre area in a couple of hours. So that machine cannot be viable for a smallholder farmer. So they make an agreement and an arrangement where this small farm or smallholder farmers they club together in a cooperative where they break the silos that are segregating their land. So they make a big farm where this kind of you know high-tech machine can operate seamlessly, and the cost of that operation is far cheaper than by bearing one farmer.

Andrew 43:24

China does that as well, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:26

Yes, exactly. But the China is like uh uh under the government supervision. Here is uh the farmer and the farm cooperative, uh, they are supported by government to adopt this technology and subsidize the like the machinery and other equipment costs.

Andrew 43:42

Does this system go on in in India and Pakistan?

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Yes, it can be easily replicated. In fact, uh we have one uh harvester in the Bulkhan region, and that is available on the rental basis, but again, the cooperative farming until unless we have a really uh corporate farming practices, this cannot be more beneficial until unless we have a very clear policy around it. And unfortunately, uh India and Pakistan, the people still want to live in the silos. So there would be a little, you know, hard work to make them understand why it's beneficial not only on operational cost point of view, but the better yield and better crop as well, which will be resulting a premium payback to them.

Andrew 44:34

Definitely. Imran, I want to thank you for being available today for us. Um, you provide a fountain of information. I am very, very grateful.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

Thank you very much for inviting me. And you know, uh talking about the content, traceability, and textile, I'm always available.

Andrew 44:55

Thank you, Ian.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

Thank you.