Ep 76—FRESH BLOOD, Part 8: Questioning the Process with Sean Vossen

FRESH BLOOD continues with Part 8, featuring Sean Vossen, who works with Frontline in Hong Kong.

Sean grew up between Hong Kong and Milan, surrounded by the apparel business, but chose to explore other industries before joining the family trade. Today, he brings a fresh perspective to the supply chain, combining curiosity with a willingness to question how things have always been done.

Andrew and Sean talk about factories, product development, AI, sustainability, and why young people entering the industry should respect experience without being afraid to challenge old habits.

They also get into the hidden complexity behind garment manufacturing, the importance of passing knowledge from one generation to the next, and why the future of denim depends on attracting curious people who want to keep learning.

For Sean, fresh ideas are valuable, but only when they’re paired with curiosity, humility, and a genuine desire to understand the work.

Thank you to our sponsor Inside Denim.

Sean Vossen
Budgetary Controller
LinkedIn

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Transcript

Andrew 0:00

If you value these conversations, subscribe and leave a review. It helps more than you think. There is a moment in every industry when the veterans look around the table and realize something uncomfortable. And that's that the room is getting older. Maybe you are already the oldest person at the table. Fresh Blood is a series inside Geneseland where I step aside, or at least lean back and listen, to the people under 30 who are already inside the gene supply chain. Not influencers, not commentators, not big-time fancy operators. They're the next layer, the next shift, the next pulse. The series is about catching the heartbeat of a new generation, how they think, about their genes, the industry and its future. And I want to hear from people not just in Europe, Turkey, or USA. I want to hear from those in Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, China, wherever. Please do write me. In this series, we talk about sustainability from their point of view. Maybe most importantly, we ask whether genes will matter in 20 years, and if so, what the world will look like for them at that time. I'm doing this series because every industry faces the same test. It either renews itself or it calcifies. These are the voices that determine which direction we go. The series is called Fresh Blood. We hope you like it. Today's guest is Sean Vosen, who is from, I guess he's going to tell us where he's from, but he lives now in Hong Kong and he works for Frontline. Sean, good morning. Good morning, good evening. Nice to have you here and thank you for doing this. I was contacted by Sean's father because he heard our series on fresh blood and asked if I would be interested in talking to Sean. And when I got to know anything about Sean at all, I got more and more excited to have him as a guest because he represents a whole segment of the industry that I don't think any of our other guests really got into that were young. So, Sean, welcome. Thank you so much. Tell us right from the jump, how did you get to this? Where did you go to school? Where did you grow up? Tell us how you got to this point.

Sean 2:02

So I was born in Hong Kong. And when I was about four years old, I moved to Italy with my mom.

Andrew 2:09

Where in Italy?

Sean 2:11

Uh in Milan. Milan. Nice.

Andrew 2:13

Yeah.

Sean 2:14

And uh then I I did my studies there, and I spent a year in New York after high school. Um then I went back to Milan for university and uh unfortunately graduated during COVID. So I moved to Hong Kong before my my university was over. I finished it here at the at the distance online. And then I worked in in a few different industries um before landing in Garmin's. And I've been here now for almost four years. And and um I'm loving it, I'm enjoying it.

Andrew 2:50

So let's talk about living in Hong Kong. How is that for you?

Sean 2:53

Well, I mean, it's not very foreign for me living in Hong Kong because I would I would usually come back um a couple times a year. So I was growing up between Milan and Hong Kong. Um, and and I love Hong Kong. Uh Hong Kong has always been the plan since I started thinking of a plan. Uh, I always wanted to move move back here. Fortunately, I uh I found someone uh uh who is now my wife that's also uh loved Hong Kong, so that worked out uh pretty good. And uh I think Hong Kong is a is a great place. It's a great place socially, it's a great place professionally. Uh for our industry, it's very important. You are close to all the hubs in Southeast Asia. So yeah, I really enjoy living in Hong Kong.

Andrew 3:40

What did you study in university?

Sean 3:42

I studied um the official, let's say, uh course name was uh International Economics and Management. So it was very it was very broad. I wasn't sure when I started university exactly what I wanted my career to be. So I figured that that would leave some options open. So I think I think it was very useful. It's it can be applied to many different industries, especially also the garment industry. Um, but it was more I don't when I think about university, I don't think of it as like what exactly you learned or or what came out explicitly from the courses. I think it's important to see also the way of of thinking that it helps you develop. And I think that's that that course gave us a chance to start to question things, analyze things with with a bit of a bigger picture in mind. So I think that has been quite useful so far.

Andrew 4:44

What other industries did you think about working in?

Sean 4:48

Well, I I spent some time in in finance, as I think a lot of people that do my course uh end up doing. I spent some time with here in Hong Kong with an incredible artist that was uh transforming vintage pieces, vintage accessories, and when I started there, I was starting to transform vintage cars. So there I saw I think that was my first professional exposure to somebody that was very passionate about craftsmanship and seeing what's what you could do to a product or what you could turn a product into. So seeing how you can work from from vision to to execution to reality. And then after that, I yeah, I started here in frontline.

Andrew 5:34

And your family, how did your family react to your interest in the business?

Sean 5:40

Um so my family, both my parents have been in this industry for a very long time. And before that, my my grandmother on my mother's side was in the 70s and 80s working for Ferrucci in Milan. So it's been something that I've that I've grown up around, but they've seen it change a lot since, let's say, what they call the golden years of this industry. Um they've seen it change a lot since they started, since also 10, 15 years ago. So they were, I wouldn't say entirely against me joining this industry. They always tried to make a point of making sure I wouldn't join the industry just because they were in it. So that's I think is something that was very healthy. And of course, I think in general, like every parent is is worried for their kid's future. When the kid chooses an industry that they know very well, they tend to be very aware of the negatives of that industry, the risks of that industry. So I think that's influenced it a bit. But in the end, I'm happy that I was able to do other things before joining the industry. I think also when you grow up around a family business, you have always this thing inside that you feel that's that you're always wondering: is it something I actually like? Is it something I like because I'm aware of it? Is it something I like because I just know it exists, uh, know how it works. Because when when you finish university and you start thinking about what am I going to do with my life, of course, familiarity seems very attractive. So going into something that's that you know on a superficial level, of course, um compared to somebody entering completely fresh, of course feels more comfortable. And I think that is maybe one of the main reasons my parents preferred or not preferred, uh didn't want this to be the first industry I worked in. And again, it was more, let's say, challenging to accept at the beginning. But in hindsight, I'm I'm very happy that that's how that's how it happened.

Andrew 7:54

And what was the overriding factor that made you decide? To to join the industry? Yeah.

Sean 8:00

Oh, so I don't think that there was one dramatic moment or a romantic pulling back into the to the industry. I I I don't want to to romanticize it too much. But um I mean exposure to it gave me obviously a grain of interest. What what was the interest? I'm interested in in specifically. Okay, I think that's uh a lot of people if maybe are not even aware of this side of the industry. They they see stores, some people enjoy fashion, enjoy buying clothing and things like that, but some people don't really know what is behind it. This I mean people outside the industry, of course. Say somebody, uh 22-year-old finishing university. Uh a lot of people aren't aware of it. So the interest that's uh the thing that was very interesting for me is in in the summers I would come uh to Hong Kong and I would spend time in the office, and sometimes I'd go to factories and to laundries and to mails. So I had very early exposure to the whole machine that is behind what you then see in the store. Um, and I think we'll get into it later, but there's so much that goes into making garments. And so I think I was just exposed to that, and I found it a bit fascinating, just the amount of effort and just the sheer magnitudes of what goes into making garments. So that's I found interesting.

Andrew 9:34

So what did you do when you when you first started? What was your first job in the company and what are you doing now and how long have you been there? And tell us a little bit about your your entrance into the business itself.

Sean 9:43

So when I started, um I was uh I was doing data input. So uh we were We're good at Excel. Yeah. Yeah. So uh the company was uh in the middle of uh moving to a new ERP from an older ERP, and uh there was a lot of data that had to be transferred between the two. Some of that was automatic, some of that was had to be manual. I think there are a lot of things in this industry that are a bit nuanced and uh not as structured as as sometimes we would like. So um, yeah, my first job was data input clerk, which actually I think exposed me to a lot of the things that we're doing because data is is very important and data covers every function of the company, everything that happens, there's data in it. Data is very important and becoming more important. So um it was it was a very manual job. Uh I wouldn't say super exciting, but it gave me a chance to have a look into what the company was doing. Currently, I'm uh I'm in the back office, so working a lot with uh with accounts, with logistics, but my role is is continuing to evolve to give me wider exposure across the company's functions. Um more recently I've been spending time closer to the product, which is what really interests me. Uh, the customers and and the commercial side of the business. What I think is really exciting, putting together what customers ask for and seeing how it can be executed. And I think I'm still learning a lot. There's a lot to learn in this business. There's really a lot of depth to it. Every time you think you you you know something, you realize how much more there is to there is to know. And uh yeah, over time I want to take on obviously a broader responsibility and and play a bigger role in how products are developed, brought to life, uh, and how the business continues to evolve because like we said before, it is a business that has changed a lot, and I think it will keep changing. But most of your production is not in Hong Kong anymore. So it's it's another place. Yeah, yeah. Hong Kong, Hong Kong production has has not been around for for quite a while. Um, I think many years ago, uh maybe around the time I was born, you had sample rooms in Hong Kong. Yes. But no, it's it's it's not there anymore. And I mean China is so close and has become so advanced that I don't think there's a need to make anything in Hong Kong. Hong Kong is is more of a hub.

Andrew 12:33

I guess where I was going with, do you do you visit cut the factories at all?

Sean 12:36

Yeah.

Andrew 12:38

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Sean 12:39

How is that? Do you like it? I love it. Uh I was going to say is one of is one of my favorite things to do because that is where everything happens, right? Um and and to see how it works, to see the level of expertise that you have in these factories, to see you look at a factory as a whole and everything seems so so structured, so straightforward, and then you zoom in to one sewing line, and you see that it's not so straightforward, it's not so simple. It gets more and more complicated, and you zoom into what one worker is doing, and you see the amount of of expertise, uh constant adjustments, um is really a display of knowledge, which is something that I'm I'm very happy to very happy to witness and and absorb as much as I can. Um and you know, I see also, I think more compared to maybe 10-15 years ago, but also since I started, more customers are wanting to meet directly in the production facilities. So maybe they'll spend a day or two in Hong Kong, but the the bulk of their trip will be will be in the facilities in our development centers. That is where we can really work with the customer to bring their ideas to life uh a lot more quickly. Um you tell us about your development centers? Well, we have we have two development centers, and that is really what I think does give give a lot of value because we have uh a team and both of true experts, and there they come up with uh especially the most nuanced side of what we do, the the washes. So they develop formulas, they work on ideas, and that is really, really something that is extremely useful both to us because we can run these development centers, see what works, see what doesn't work, um, work on our ideas that we want to propose to customers, work on the ideas that customers have uh that they ask us to develop because it is a very collaborative way of working, and that gives us the chance to just to just control that process and see essentially what works and what doesn't.

Andrew 14:55

Is there anything in the business so far that you've seen that surprises you? That surprises me.

Sean 15:02

Um I think okay, so there are a lot of things that there are a few things that I questioned when I when I joined this industry. Um because of course, like I said before, I might have had more exposure than somebody coming in completely fresh. Uh, but still there was a huge gap in expertise between me and the people that were already in this industry. I never thought there wasn't. However, I think in a in a legacy industry like like ours, experience is is one of the most one of the single most valuable qualities. But sometimes I think that precedent gets protected a little bit too quickly. It is important, I think, when when you're a young person in a new industry, this for any industry, but especially for ours, to respectfully question the why and processes. And many times you will find that there is a very good reason why certain things are done a certain way, but occasionally, just sometimes, you'll find that the reason is habit. So I don't think that's that's one of the first things that I questioned was a person or decision, but simply the reflex of doing something a certain way simply because it had always been done that way. And which I've spoken to other people of my age in this industry, and we we kind of find come to the same conclusion. Something else I questioned is that's uh also how easily urgency becomes normalized. Of course, it's an industry where you never have enough time. Um and I think that is normal. We're working with very tight schedules, very tight calendars, but also, you know, the fact that that the idea that speed is always equal to efficiency, but not in an aggressive way, but maybe just asking, uh, are we being efficient or we're being visibly fast? Because fast is great for the customer, which is the end goal. But efficiency is something we have to analyze from within, not only the book production stage, how efficient our sewing lines are, but on product and non-product. And I think that you know people might not always like these questions because sometimes in a in an established industry, in a legacy industry, like I said, questioning the process can sometimes feel like questioning the people, which is not the case. Uh, but I I think there's a difference between respecting experience and refusing to examine habits. So I think from the beginning and at different stages, that is one of the things that I that I noticed that I questioned. And like I said before, many times, uh most times, there's a very good reason why something is done a certain way. And it is our responsibility, I think, as as young people coming into uh the industry to learn from that. But it also shouldn't discourage us to question habits because sometimes it's the reason will just be habit.

Andrew 18:03

Well, this series is called Fresh Blood for a Reason. And the reason is because every business needs a different set of eyes on what's going on from different perspectives. And you might not accept the view, but you should listen to it. Yeah, of course. You know, that's how companies don't become statues. Yeah, exactly.

Sean 18:25

And I think it goes both ways, right? We we the the the previous generation, like you said, doesn't have to agree or doesn't have to take uh the ideas at face value, because like I said, being young and and starting in the industry, a lot of the ideas that you've thrown out there will either be not new because this industry has been around for a very long time, or not feasible because you just don't know enough. But I think it's important to not stop throwing out ideas because then uh That's your purpose to me.

Andrew 18:58

To me, that would be the main purpose to you arriving is to give it a few. Exactly. I'm very interested. You said you had friends in the business as well.

Sean 19:06

Well, some that's that you start getting to know. Um I think also some factories where the younger generation or the second generation is starting to work in the factory. And it's funny to see sometimes the things that that I notice from our position are very similar to the things that they notice from their position. So it is a very interconnected industry. We share a lot of the same pain points, we share a lot of the same risks. My wife is working in a fabric mill, so very different, but very connected. But I think the the macro topics are are usually shared.

Andrew 19:46

It's fascinating. This episode of the Jeansland Podcast is brought to you by Inside Denim, the global resource for everything denim. From sustainability insights to fabric innovation and brand stories shaping the future of the genes industry. Inside Denim keeps you informed and inspired. So stay ahead of what's next in denim at insidedenim.com. You can also visit genesland.co and sign up for our bi-weekly newsletter. It gives you access to our full archive along with the development shifts and stories shaping the denim supply chain in real time. Follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram to stay connected between episodes. When you talk to people, especially your generation, do you ever talk about sustainability in our industry?

Sean 20:32

So, yes, when I speak to people from my generation in this industry, well also when I speak uh to people not in my generation, I think now sustainability is something that has become extremely important in this industry. It is it is a industry that is heavy on the environment, a lot of processes that uh are heavy on the environment. I think it's gotten a lot better. But one of the first reactions that people usually have is or the first two questions that that come to mind when when sustainability is brought up is first, what exactly do you mean? What is meant by sustainability, what is meant by sustainable? That's fair. And the second one is uh not not in a cynical way, but more practically. The second question is usually who's paying for it. Because that is we are in a very in a very cost-driven industry. Cost is very important because there's a lot of volume. So cost is is always at uh at the front of of everybody's mind. Um so sustainability is usually something that needs to be paid for. I think that sustainability is very important, but it is also a word that's that's is used so broadly that uh sometimes it loses precision or it loses. Uh um yeah, it loses precision. If everything is described as sustainable, then the word starts to mean less. And so my instinct is always optimistic and open, but it is usually necessary to go one layer deeper. So, what is actually changing? What is the real measure of benefits? What are the trade-offs? It's not being naive, but uh a lot of things have trade-offs. Sometimes those trade-offs are worth it. So it's important to know what those trade-offs are. And also very important, uh, how is the decision being supported commercially? You know, this in the real discussions, um sustainability doesn't sit outside costs or outside timing or outside quality or outside execution. It has to live inside the the business model as it is, otherwise it's it risks becoming more of a message than a system. So again, I think it's important, necessary, but too often discussed too too vaguely. And specifics are a lot more important than slogans, I think. Slogans are great if they support something that is that is specific and that is measurable, because that's very important as well.

Andrew 23:19

Measurable is very important. Let's go down a different direction. You, your wife, and your friends as shoppers, does it have any impact on your purchasing? I think so. I think I think that um So forget about the fact that you're that you're in a business, forget about the think of yourself shopping in Italy and you have uh a week to to do stuff and you would need to buy household goods or whatever you're doing. The stuff that you buy, what are your decision factors? And as and as you look in the future from that perspective, does sustainability have a role to for the consumers in the long term? Will more and more consumers make decisions based on anything to do with sustainability? I think that's yes.

Sean 24:04

Uh I think sustainability does uh have an influence on that. Uh I think it does have an influence on on consumer purchasing behavior. I think it is stronger than it was before, sometimes not as strong as people think it is.

Andrew 24:20

Um Like for you, I'm talking about you and your friends. What specifically do you look for or don't or what don't want?

Sean 24:28

Well, usually if I'm talking about myself and and my friends, um if it is explained in a in a clear way that something is sustainable and we can see it, it is always a benefit. I'm I'm not so sure that my generation specifically or or me is going out and the first filter on whether to buy something is is whether it's sustainable or not. First filter is style and brand, right? Uh style, yes. I think, okay. I think the value proposition of the product is very important to to my generation. Is it worth buying? Now, the effect that sustainability has in that value proposition, like I said, I think if it's there, it's a great benefit. I I don't want to generalize too much, but I don't think we would not buy something that we like because it doesn't have a sustainability tag.

Andrew 25:26

Alright, that's fine.

Sean 25:28

I don't think I don't think that would preclude us from buying something. Like, I don't think we'd be at a store and we we pick something out and we're like, oh, this is great, it fits great, it feels great. Then we go through the tags and we're like, ah shit, there's no sustainability tag. Not gonna buy it. I don't think so. I think it would make us happy if there is, if we see that there is one uh as a great plus.

Andrew 25:50

But yeah. When you go to factories, let's change the subject again. When you go to factories, do you ever see things that are not as comfortable as you would have liked? Or is everything as it should be?

Sean 26:04

So okay, from from what I've seen so far, I I wouldn't want to pretend to have spent enough years on a factory floor. But one thing that I think stands out to me is it's if you look at a factory from a distance, everything can seem to unexperienced eyes, let's say the first time I went to a factory, everything can seem quite simple. You're in a place, fabric gets put together in a certain way, and and you get a product out of it. This is from a very, very basic understanding of what a factory does. But like I was saying, if you then focus on one person doing the job, you realize how much precision, coordination, responsibility sits inside something that looks so routine, and it looks routine because it's something that they do over and over. I think that hidden complexity is many times underestimated. Some something that I've I've felt to use the word uh bothered is is too strong, but for for lack of a better word, is when people outside the floor underestimate how much discipline, technical control it takes to make production look smooth. If you go somewhere, and I've I've seen, I'm sure you've noticed this, if you go somewhere and everything looks smooth, you know that there is incredible processes behind that because it is not something that is simple. Or simply when a factory is seen just as a place where where the execution happens without enough appreciation to the problem solving and judgments happening every minute by every worker, by the factory manager, by the workers, by the people washing. And like I mentioned, I think the thing that impresses me the most is the instinct of experienced people. Some people can spot an issue on a garment process uh results almost immediately to when you start in this industry. They had a problem.

Andrew 27:59

The reason they do that is because they had a problem.

Sean 28:02

So that's yeah, you you know when when when I started, sometimes I would I would be with somebody a lot more experienced than I than I was, than I am, and they'd look at two two genes which to me looked completely identical. And then they they explain it and they they work through it, and you end up ten minutes later, you're looking at what they're looking at, and they're two completely different garments. Um and that I think is very is very impressive.

Andrew 28:33

All right, let's go to a new subject. AI. Yes. So now old eyes looking at AI, because the historical people they see AI in one way, they will use it in one way, and then you have the next generation coming and looking at AI as an unlimited opportunity, I would imagine.

Sean 28:52

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Andrew 28:53

What do you see as the possible use of AI in our industry that's not being used now? How do you, like if you had to think five or seven years from now, how do you see the possible impact with robots, with AI, with all the different things that are coming on?

Sean 29:08

Well, I think a lot of that is is starting already. Um I think I think that AI is definitely definitely going to be a major contributor. But like anything else, it has to be implemented in a way that brings real value, not just so that you can tell your customers, oh, I'm using AI, which sounds great, but then you're not really gaining anything from it. I definitely see a place for it in in design assistance and visualization. Just yesterday I was in a meeting where I saw how a sketch could be turned into a realistic garment, placed on a model consistently, and then turned into a short video while still keeping the fits and fabric behavior true to the reality. And I think that kind of tool can really help in the early stages by allowing both suppliers and buyers to visualize ideas more clearly before moving into physical sampling. Of course, I don't think we're at the stage, or maybe also five years from now, I don't think we would be at the stage where it removes the need for sampling, but it can definitely help uh reduce unnecessary early iterations, make communication sharper just to brainstorm ideas, which, if you connect it back to what we were talking about before in sustainability, if it is something that can eliminate one round of sampling, um, that is something that is sustainable. In in denim, it gets a little bit more complicated. I've seen a lot of 3D tools still struggle, especially with wash, because the wash is such a nuanced part of the product. And so I think currently it's having more success with uh flatter, more technical fabrics. But yeah, so I think AI can can help a lot, but in categories like denim, there's still areas uh I think there will be for a long time, uh, areas where human judgment and and physical development and putting your hands on it remain very crucial. Quality control is another area where AI is being explored seriously, where it could be very useful. Tell me about that. General things like like measurements, there's trials where you have a camera hanging over the QC's table, and once it's been trained on a certain cell, it can start to measure it. Now, you have some margin when you do measurements, uh, you have some acceptable margin, and sometimes it struggles a little bit because you know you've you've you've been to factories, sometimes they're not uh the most well-lit places, uh noisy, it's a bit chaotic. So I think in controlled environments, AI is having successful trials with some parts of the QC. Bringing it to a factory floor still needs some time, I think. But also, you mention you mentioned robots. I think they will continue to play a bigger role. I'm all excited about robots. Yes, yes, me too. But I think um mostly in combination with people rather than a full replacement, at least for the garment industry. Like I said before, when you zoom into what one worker does, there's so much nuance, so much personal experience that that goes into that that I think it's difficult where we are now, or also maybe five years from now. Because in the end, you're not dealing with with a solid object, you're not building a car, you're dealing with something that is flexible, uh, moves and behaves differently depending on the wash, depending whether it's raw, depending whether you're making an adjustment, so many different behaviors. Um, but we already have examples of robotics assisting workers. Uh one example can be uh the auto-pocketing machine that attaches the pocket on the back of the gene. Uh that helps. But I'm hoping we go a lot further than that, because that's been around for a long time.

Andrew 33:06

I think we will, but but I I'm thinking where I'm starting in my mind, where I'm thinking, and I guess what is a company like Levi's or big t-shirt companies who make the same thing over and over again.

Sean 33:20

Yes.

Andrew 33:21

The industry has to get those people robotized first. And once they do, then the nuance for people who do lots of styles can grow.

Sean 33:29

Yes, I agree.

Andrew 33:30

I agree.

Sean 33:31

That's how I'm hoping it goes that way. Yes. That's true. That's true. But I think we're so far from it's replacing judgment and and instinct, there's still a lot of need for that in this industry. So I think that is that is very important.

Andrew 33:49

Do you think blue jeans are going to be important in the next 10 years, 15 years? Do you think that it will always be important?

Sean 33:56

Yes. Um, if a product in in our industry has has been commercially relevant for so long, it speaks about the product. Uh, I think genes are deeply embedded in in the culture and the way people dress. And what makes genes strong and I think what makes them resilient and gives them their longevity is their versatility. They can shift without losing their identity, fits can change, washers can change, fabric construction can change. But the category has always held. I think denim today is incredibly adaptable, it can be light, super light, heavy, rigid, coated, bonded, printed, clean, vintage, technical, rich, casual. So I think with that you get something that works across seasons, across age groups, across price points, very different use cases. So I think it is something that is still uh very alive. And so I'm positive that the genes will still matter in 20 years, in more than 20 years. I think the expression of them will keep changing, but I think the relevance will stay.

Andrew 35:05

What do you worry about in the future? Is there anything? Are you just totally positive? Do you have concerns about anything in the future?

Sean 35:12

Yes.

Andrew 35:13

We're going through a kind of a war right now. There's all sorts of things going on in the world. There's prices. A few. Are there things that make you nervous?

Sean 35:22

Yes. Um I mean, one one thing that I think your your podcast addresses. We'll we'll get into the the geopolitics and everything, but one thing that definitely uh worries me is the talent pipeline. The need to bring more young people uh into the industry with fresh ideas and and creativity. Uh, there's a huge amount of knowledge uh in the business that needs to be protected and passed on. It's knowledge that I've taken a long time to master. I I wouldn't want to see that not get passed on. I think another worry I have as my role, uh like I said before, as my role evolves and I get involved in different things, is that the industry has been very good for a very long time at absorbing shocks. Uh, tighter requirements, more pressure, more complexity. Um, maybe it's sometimes almost being too good at absorbing all of that. And with that, you have the risk that it might make the limits uh look further away than they really are. I wouldn't want to reach a point where the accumulated pressure in the industry leads to a larger correction than is necessary. If I may use a simple metaphor, uh if you take if you look at the supply chain as if it were a horse, you have to take care of the horse. If you want it to keep winning championships, you have to keep it healthy, you have to nurture it, not overrace it. Um, I think that applies to both suppliers and buyers. I agree. The supply chain is something that's uh we all depend on. All our businesses depend on this supply chain. We're part of the supply chain, we depend on the supply chain. So it is something that we have to protect. At the same time, I I don't mean it in a pessimistic way. I think a lot of that risk is manageable. It is in our hands and and more broadly in the industry's hands to manage that's responsibly. Uh I think that means investing in people, uh, in processes, capability, uh, and just put simply not assuming that the system can absorb everything forever. So, yes, I do worry, especially the geopolitics now, uh, logistics, freights, raw materials, uh all of that is having a huge impact. But I think that as a supply chain working together, there's a lot that we can do to avoid certain outcomes, and a lot that we can do to protect the supply chain, which is what we all depend on.

Andrew 37:58

Okay. If a young person came to you and said they had an idea to go in this business, what's your recommendation? What are the good parts? What are the bad parts?

Sean 38:07

So I would hope there would be more people asking that question. I'd love to answer that question to somebody that is to to speak directly to somebody that is that is thinking about it and and not sure of it. I think for sure it would depend on the person asking. But uh but the right person, I would definitely encourage them to join the industry. But I think an important quality for a young person joining this industry is uh genuine curiosity. Like I said before, there's a lot to learn and a lot to understand. So if you don't have that genuine curiosity, it will be uh it will feel very straining because like I said also before, the more you you learn about something, the more you realize how much you don't know about that thing because there's so many layers behind it, so many layers uh within it. If you describe making a gene in 10 steps, each step has 10 more steps, and each one of those steps has 10 more steps.

Andrew 39:06

So curiosity is is listen, I gotta tell you, I'm playing chess for 30 years. And I constantly learn. Yeah. So our business is is I'm not saying it's as complicated as chess, maybe more complicated. So the learning never stops.

Sean 39:23

No, it it really never does. I see also people that are are in in the peak of their career in our company or or at the latter stages of their career, they're still learning things, which I think is a beautiful thing.

Andrew 39:36

Um And we have new problems because nobody imagined a w war with the bread. So like no one planned on that or has a strategy for that. Yes.

Sean 39:43

And we have new problems, yes. I think for sure you're never going to be bored.

Andrew 39:48

Um, you know, when COVID started, I called a few of my friends who are really smart, hoping one of them had an answer. I said, Do you have a strategy for COVID? And they went, not really. That's an element to our business that's crazy.

Sean 40:03

No, no, no. I mean, especially I I since I joined, there's been, I think, a crazy couple of years. Uh, we've worked with consultants that's that at a certain point they were like, if I'm going to be completely honest, I don't know what you should do. Which is which was very scary. Um, but I mean, at the end of the day, you have to figure it out. But I think also going back to somebody, somebody new joining, I think they shouldn't join if they're looking for something easy, simple, uh, glamorous, repetitive. Repetitive. Um, you know, especially our side of the industry. It's not it's not like the movies, it's not the the devil wears Prada. It is extremely detailed, extremely operational. Many times it's messy, usually difficult. But I think it's also what makes it rewarding. There's something very special about I think working on a product that people will eventually choose to spend their money on. And uh and and you see it going from development to factory floor to store to worn to somebody's wardrobe. I think it is it is not so simple to describe, but it's a very rewarding part of the job. I think the part the fact that it's difficult is also what makes it worth doing.

Andrew 41:21

Um I loved it when I was young and I saw someone get in an elevator wearing something that I'd made.

Sean 41:26

Yes, it's amazing. It's amazing because you've seen it, you've seen the developments, you've seen the sketch. Sometimes it doesn't start as a sketch, sometimes it starts as a conversation. Um and then months later you're you're walking in the street or you're watching a movie or a TV show or uh uh uh a news broadcaster. Or it's in the movie. Or it's in yes, yes, yes, exactly. That's what I mean. You see it worn by somebody in a movie. Uh you see it. I think for me, the nicest feeling I felt is um to see a friend w wear something we've made without me being the one that gave it to him, which I usually then follow up with like, don't waste your money. Like if you like these things, please ask me. Uh but I think there is, and I know you've you've said this many times, and we've said it many times also throughout this podcast, but I think there's a real, real need for for young people in this industry. There's and I will say it again, there's so much knowledge, instinct, experience uh that needs to be protected, it needs to be passed on. It cannot get lost or or forgotten. Um that's that's I think I would encourage people to join it because this industry needs renewal, needs fresh blood, as you say, needs continuity. But I would say also uh to come in for the right reasons with a lot of curiosity, but please come in with your eyes wide open. Get ready to work.

Andrew 43:03

Yes, yes, it's a lot. You are you are very eloquent. Um I really appreciate you doing this. You um give me lots of hope for the future of the business helped like you can. And I'm sure that you're gonna be successful. I will try my best.

Sean 43:20

Thank you for doing this. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a real pleasure.